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>bipedal
>hands
>grasping fingers
>possibly the most versatile predator to ever exist
>fast
>pack hunter
>intelligence on par with modern crows and parrots, which is p smart for animals

Give them some 30 million years, we d have a dominant species that's twice as strong/agile than humans
>>
doubt it
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>>2565397
why? What do we have that they didn't? In fact, I believe they have even more
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>>2565395
>intelligence on par with modern crows and parrots
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How do we know that they were intelligent? How do we even know if they were fast?
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>>2565403
>fast
Can deduce from skeleton and articulations
We know, for example that t rex couldnt run for shit and carnotaurus was one of the fastest dinosaurs

>intelligence
From brain to body proportion which can be deduced from skull, biggest one indeed is troodon's, comparable to modern birds
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>>2565403
the speed thing we know from comparing the length of the upper and lower legs.

we know they weren't intelligent by comparing the size of the inside of the braincase to the rest of the body.
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>>2565400
a set of evolutionary pressures for brain smart
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>>2565412
what were those for humans?
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>>2565414
the size of dis dick
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>>2565414
Being generally mediocre at most things except smarts.
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>>2565400
Well, for starters, we had a freakish attraction towards fire. Legit, staring at fire likely helped provoke expanded thinking in primitive humans and we loved doing it so much that it helped contribute.

Also thumbs and some of the largest dicks of any primate. Those help.
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>>2565414
Very large social circles requiring larger brains
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>>2565395
Given how almost everything we’ve made is erased in less than 10,000 years (except stacked stone buildings like pyramids) is there a large enough gap in the fossil record from that era to hide the development and extinction of a dinosaur civilization? We’re talking quarter million years from bower bird like nest building to nest villages, complex tool making like pottery and simple machines, up to but not beyond an industrial revolution that would have left signs like a plastics layer in the sediment or probes left on the Moon.
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>>2565395
Octopi will rule .
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>>2565671
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>>2565395
>>2565400
Doesn't being absolutely ace at hunting with the tools you were born with sort of take the pressure off to start crafting them?
Humans are pretty bad at killing things naked, all we really had going for us biologically (beyond muh brainpower) was loads of stamina, and 'chase thing all day until it's too tired to move and you can clumsily kill it' seems like a frustrating enough routine to beget ingenuity.
also while social, even smart birds are generally less communal than apes
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>>2565671
>except stacked stone buildings like pyramids
and brick buildings
and concrete buildings
and stone tools
and metal tools
and disturbances in soil
and postholes
and ditches
and carved stone
and glass
and metal jewelry
and bone tools
and dental implants
and coins
and pottery
and rubber
and leather
and anything sunk in the ocean
and anything in a grave
and lots of other random stuff that happens to get buried at the right time and place
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>>2565915
we don't even have lots of stamina, we just have the ability to carry water in containers.

Persistence hunting was invented after water bottles, without water we die as fast as the animals we hunt.
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>>2565915
I think our real skills are we can take a physical beating and keep on going. How many animals can just snap a broken bone back in place, heal up and keep going for decades? And the caliber guns that you can reliable kill a human with are similar to what you need to drop a moose or bear.

Also our extremely flexible shoulder lets us throw and punch, projecting force much stronger than an animal of our bodyweight would normally be able too. A punch to the skull or a rock thrown at 100mph like a large male can deliver isn't something most animals can shrug at.
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>>2565937
Almost everything you described breaks down over mega timescales into sand or ore or soil and disappears completely from the fossils record, except perhaps some plastics which might be preserved for a teen million years as a fine particle layer in sediment laid down during our age. After a few hundred thousand years even the pyramids collapse and crumble back into the strata.
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>>2565938
No, it’s breathing. Quadruped breathing is determined by stride whereas we can breathe faster than our stepping rate so we do tire less. Being able to carry water is helpful but not necessary.
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>>2566244
everything I named does both.

we have fossil gastroliths from dinosaurs, these are just rocks. We have bone from dinosaurs, that normally also breaks down and is consumed.

it comes down to how it's buried. Given the right conditions even skin and flesh survive in the earth. So to say no trace would remain is incredibly naïve. Even humans if they were wiped out in the stone age left identifiable fossils proving they used tools and lit fires. These fossils will survive millions of years, perhaps billions, if we don't dig them all up.

your hypothetical dinosaur culture would have to be widespread, but technological cultures are. For them to advance they'd have to have left a fossil record of their tool use and technology/culture.
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>>2566247
>Quadruped breathing is determined by stride
we used to think that about lizards but even that's not true anymore.

I don't think anyone ever thought that about mammals, a running horse will prove the idea wrong every time.
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>>2565395
The better question would be: Why in the fuck is the human silhouette shaped like a cowboy?
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>>2566256
That's Dr. Robert Bakker, one of the coauthors that described the animal and a fairly famous paleontologist in his own right.
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>>2565937
>and brick buildings
>and concrete buildings
These get weathered down to fine grains in a matter of centuries.
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>>2565408
Its difficult to estimate based on brain case volume, because the brain doesn't always fit tightly inside it. We can speculate that they may have had comparable intelligence to some birds and mammals, but crows and parrots are at the upper rainge of intelligence for even modern birds, so I highly doubt this claim.

>>2565395
>hands
Doesn't necessarily mean they could adapt them to make use of them to manipulate their environment. They didn't have opposable digets for a start and they had a fairly limeted range of movement, also they would need the brain smarts to make use of them

>social
We have no direct evidence of this, only speculation. Entirely possible but as yet unproven

>most versetile predator to have ever existed
Jurrasic Parkfag detected. You probably think they lived in complicated societies and talked to eachoter in "raptor"
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>>2566263
>These get weathered down to fine grains in a matter of centuries
not if they're buried.
>>2566265
>he brain doesn't always fit tightly inside it.
correct, but we have 2 different lines of evidence regarding brain/braincase volumes in dinosaurs. One was the imprint of the brain on the bone, the other was apparently the soft tissue of the brain preserved in situ inside a braincase.

we have a solid idea how big the brain was compared to the braincase, but even if the thing took up the full volume of the case there's no way the animal had an EQ comparable to a crow or a parrot. Even if it did that doesn't mean it's as intelligent as a crow or parrot since lots of much dumber birds have EQ's similar to those.
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>>2566261
>Deinocheirus
Thats an Allosaurus
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>>2566276
kek
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>>2566268
>the other was apparently the soft tissue of the brain preserved in situ inside a braincase.

Thats incredibly rare though surely? How many incidences of this that have occurred are there? Also correct me if I'm wrong, but could that also be sediment filling space and making a "cast" of the brain case, or is it something fundamentally different?

>Even if it did that doesn't mean it's as intelligent as a crow or parrot since lots of much dumber birds have EQ's similar to those.

This is an important point, even if they did have large brain sizes it still wouldn't necessarily tell you how "smart" the animal was in life. Intelligence is a difficult thing to measure even in living animals because it depends on how you measure it, and what exactly the animals you're studying are using their brains for.
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>>2566294
>How many incidences of this that have occurred are there?
just the one so far
>could that also be sediment filling space and making a "cast" of the brain case, or is it something fundamentally different?
it was the imprint of the actual brain preserved within the cast (endocast).
It's here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627300805851
>ntelligence is a difficult thing to measure even in living animals because it depends on how you measure it, and what exactly the animals you're studying are using their brains for.
exactly this
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>>2566268
>>2566294
is it possible that any dinosaurs had wrinkled brains, or is that exclusively a synapsid phenomenon?
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>>2566481
nah, both birds and crocodiles have smooth cerebrums. Dinosaurs had brains almost exactly like crocodiles in both size and shape.
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>>2565406
By that logic, frogs would be the smartest animals alive right now. Their brain shape was actually much closer to that of crocodylians.
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>>2565395
>most versatile predator to ever exist
That's man, my dude. No animal can hold a candle to the number of ways we have developed to kill nearly every living thing.
Hell, most animals can't hold a candle at all.
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>>2566249
I like to entertain the idea that a species intelligent enough to attain stone age technology and agriculture could have lived before us, but anything more advanced than that starts to reek of tinfoil
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>>2567126
yeah, it could be possible if it was geographically isolated and we just haven't found signs of it yet. If it was widespread or lasted a long time we'd find stone tools though. And perhaps butchering marks on bones of animals they killed.

but yours is the most likely sort of fantasy to approach reality. The main problem though is that dinosaurs had extremely small and poorly developed brains. It would be like finding salamanders using tools or something, they really weren't at all bright compared to humans or even birds.
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>>2567133
>We'd find stone tools though
Would we?
How long will it take time to wear away a stone arrowhead into just another, unrecognizable rock? We're talking a time frame of millions of years here, long enough for continents to noticeably move.
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>>2567165
>How long will it take time to wear away a stone arrowhead into just another, unrecognizable rock?
we find bones all the time
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>>2567166
It's been estimated less than 1% of all extinct species that have existed have been fossilized

The only reason fossils exist in the quantity that they do is because we have fuckhuge time scales to pull them from
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>>2567165
>How long will it take time to wear away a stone arrowhead into just another, unrecognizable rock?
things that are buried don't wear away
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>>2567187
>It's been estimated less than 1% of all extinct species that have existed have been fossilized
yes, but this is misleading.
first, this doesn't imply huge missing branches of the evolutionary tree. Most species missing doesn't mean most genera are. The missing species are for the most part almost exactly like the ones that aren't missing. I.e. they belong to known genera;

also, 99% of the species that have ever existed are probably alive right now. We have far more species right now than at any other time in Earth's history. Scientists still debate why that is.

the fossil record is incomplete, but it's not nearly as incomplete as your factoid implies. Most of the gaps are geographical rather than just temporal. Entire faunas are missing in places where fossils didn't form or were later wiped out by erosion, but those faunas are only a handful of species and all of those species will belong to known genera.
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>>2565395
but can the withstand a .308?
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>>2568040
Probably.
it had a brain the size of a peanut and something like 40 lungs, so good luck hitting anything that matters.
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>>2565395
But where's the precision grip for tool use and production? You silly billy
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>>2567583
>also, 99% of the species that have ever existed are probably alive right now. We have far more species right now than at any other time in Earth's history. Scientists still debate why that is.
Gonna need a source on that
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>we can deduce intelligence by relative brain size alone
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>>2566276
>>2566261
90% sure both you niggas are wrong and it's a utahraptor arm
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>99% of the species that have ever existed are probably alive right now
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>>2565395
You forgot
>alien machines in concealment
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>>2569635
>haha feathers :DDDD
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>>2565953
This is mostly truth, we are the orcs of the animal kingdom
We can push through injuries that would have sent most animals into lethal shock
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>>2565395
Dinosaur fingers arent even comparable to primate fingers in dexterity.
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>>2570175
Listen here you drooling faggot, at the moment there isn't any conclusive evidence that Tyrannosaurus was mostly scaly or mostly feathery, we have a few scaly impressions and some closely related feathery cousins. Don't get your panties twisted so easily by someone else's depiction when you can't confidently say what the fuck it really looked like.

Bandwagon faggots like you are paleo cancer turning a conversation about the evidence into middle school arguments about Xbox vs Playstation.
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>>2565395
Why do a ton of really old society say a feathered serpent/dragon came to them and gave them the gift of civilization
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>>2571384
Olmecs aztecs Mayan incan Chinese and most ancient Asian cultures, and Indians as well had feathered serpent men in their history though not as the god of civilization.

Ancient European civilization is like the only one I know that made mythos of themselves killing dragons instead of worshipping them so I vote whites killed the troodon civilization off.and the rest of the world just stood back and watched that shit happen.
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>>2571369
kys Trey
you're the cancer
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>>2571406
I explain in plain, simple brainlet why you're making autism posts and yet you respond with even more middle school babbling.

Also I've seen like two Trey videos both of which were unrelated to your feather faggotry,
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>>2571389
DEUS VULT.
PRAISE SAINT GIORGIOS.
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>>2571369
>we have a few scaly impressions
that is conclusive evidence it was entirely scaly
>and some closely related feathery cousins.
about as closely are you're related to mice.
which clearly proves you have teeth that never stop growing because mice do.

or as closely related as you are to pangolins, proving you're covered in scales.

you are literally retarded, Trey the Complainer.
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>>2571413
>I explain in plain, simple brainlet
I'm not the poster you were arguing with, I just wanted you to be aware you're retarded.

the latest science categorically states that rex was scaled.

are you smarter than the scientists that published that fact? I didn't think so.

in fact no scientist ever has published a paper claiming it was feathered.
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>>2567583
>99% of the species that have ever existed are probably alive right now.

The fuck is this statistic
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>>2565395

>american education

Jesus Christ...
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>>2571417
Yutyrannus is an early tyrannorauroid who has been proven to be covered in feathers, and is pretty much as close to T-Rex as a gibbon is to an human. It's entirely possible that they lost most if not all of their feather coat because they grew too big and lived in warm areas, like elephants today, but you are shitposting too hard on dismissing the evidence of feathered relatives.
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>>2565395
Only twice as agile and strong?
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>>2571615
>you are shitposting too hard on dismissing the evidence of feathered relatives.
science has dismissed that evidence and we both know it.

bracketing doesn't overrule reality.

and the fact that T. rex didn't have feathers indicates it wasn't related to Yutyrannus at all.
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>>2568053
>it had a brain the size of a peanut and something like 40 lungs
That's one brain and 40 lungs that are going to get shredded into oblivion.
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>>2565395
>bipedal
So is a monkey.

>hands
>grasping fingers
Those are claws. There are much a hand as a fucking crow's claw.

>possibly the most versatile predator to ever exist
That goes to humans.

>fast
>pack hunter
Meaningless if they all fall into a trap.

>intelligence on par with modern crows and parrots
So they're crow if you mixed it with a raptor. Oooh so scary.

Nothing these things got can beat a cold piece of steel going through their chest.

2.728521/10 made me reply.
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>>2565395
>intelligence on par with modern crows and parrots
proof of that, or that they were even smarter than an ostric or croc
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>>2571697
>So is a monkey.
there are no bipedal primates aside from humans
being able to walk on your hind legs for a few seconds at a time does not make an organism bipedal
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>>2571697
also humans would have existed if they hadn't gone extinct
I don't know why you are trying to turn this speculative scenario into some human vs raptor fight when the thread is discussing what dinosaur would eventually take up the mantle of sentience as humans have if the cretaceous extinction never happened
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>>2572268
crows and parrots are sentient.
crows and parrots are dinosaurs.

I suppose we have an answer, it's just not badass enough for the 12 year olds that discuss this sort of topic.
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>>2565400
dexterous tongue and mouth allowing us to use spoken language
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>>2565395
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>>2572276
>crows and parrots are sentient.
when was this ever discussed? The thread clearly implies of a speculative scenario that the descendants of dakotaraptor evolved into sentient beings that would form civilizations analogous to how humans did.
>crows and parrots are dinosaurs.
I'm assuming you don't have very good reading comprehensions?
>I suppose we have an answer, it's just not badass enough for the 12 year olds that discuss this sort of topic.
Its just as bad as you're incoherent irrelevant rambling
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>>2565524
Usmart
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>>2572902
>thinks I was responding to OP
>doesn't know I was responding to >>2572268
>gets mad about his failure to understand
>>
>>2571369
>we have evidence of scales but no evidence of feathers
>therefore T-Rexes looked like turkeys
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>>2573104
Where in>>2572268 posts was any of what you typed out stated?
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>>2565395
I am not truely convinced there aren't cyborg raptor vampires living on the moon.
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>>2567166
And we don't find millions more, not every thing gets fossilized there could be hundreds of thousands of species that existed that we will never know about because they aren't present in the fossil record.
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>>2571417
>that is conclusive evidence it was entirely scaly
>Chickens have scales on feet
>Conclusive evidence chickens don't have feathers
>Inb4 infographic showing collection of postage stamp sized scales from ten different theropod species including some that have been known to have feathers which somehow concludes that t.rex had none.
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>>2568040
>"HURR ME SHOOT LOL"
why do gun fags need to bring every fucking debate to this?
>inb4 soyboy gun thief
I'm all for them but I'm just tired of reading this fucking stupid shit
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>>2573260
>ten different theropod species
kek
I love how 2 suddenly becomes 10 in your head.
>including some that have been known to have feathers
nope.
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>>2573129
>Where in>>2572268 posts was any of what you typed out stated?

he typed,
>the thread is discussing what dinosaur would eventually take up the mantle of sentience as humans have if the cretaceous extinction never happened
to which I responded,
>>2572276

Do you have any other posts you don't understand and would like me to explain to you? I bet you do.
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>>2573291
Still not reading the claim of parrots and crows and parrots being sentient
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>>2565502
>have we started the fire
>yes, the primate rises
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>>2573830
>not knowing the difference between sentience and sapience.
>not knowing that all animals are classified as sentient
>not knowing that both sentience and sapience are philosophical questions and there's no point in answering philosophy with scientific proofs.
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>>2571417
If we had no evidence that humans didn't have rodent teeth or pangolin scales, then yes, that would be the most likely conclusion from what we know.
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>>2574056
>that would be the most likely conclusion from what we know.
yep.
the problem with Tyrannosauridae including Tyrannosaurus is we DO have evidence that it lacked feathers. Lots of evidence. Quite a bit more than we need to know it didn't have feathers.
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>>2573830
>Still not reading the claim of parrots and crows and parrots being sentient
I made that claim in the post you responded to.
do you have a disability I should be aware of?
>>2574016
>all animals are classified as sentient
kek
no

you're the dork that doesn't understand sentience and sapience. Even after years of being told you're using them wrong.
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>>2565402
>intelligence on par with modern crows and parrots

As far as animals go crows and parrots are unbelievably intelligent. Crows are excellent problem solvers. Imagine a Massive incredibly fast and incredibly strong problem solving machine, it would easily be an apex predator.
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>>2574225
>As far as animals go crows and parrots are unbelievably intelligent.
yes, what makes you think raptors were even close to that smart?
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>>2574016
>not knowing that both sentience and sapience are philosophical questions and there's no point in answering philosophy with scientific proofs.

I was with you up until this. When doing science you are engaging in philosophy. saying that a question in philosophy can't be answered in science is to deny that science is a subset of philosophy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkX3AErRPGQ
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>>2574231
Sorry I may have misread what you were implying by that comment. I thought you were implying that parrots and crows weren't that intelligent. I have no idea whether raptors were that intelligent.
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>>2574232
your first clue that she has no clue about philosophy of science was "scientific proofs."

there's no such thing as scientific proof, it's philosophically impossible. The anon has the education of a 9 year old inner-city American or a mentally retarded European.
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>>2574234
>I have no idea whether raptors were that intelligent.
they weren't.
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>>2574236
As I said I have no idea, my interests don't lie in paleontology but in animal behavior so I have no idea what the literature says on raptors intelligence.
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>>2574239
as you can imagine behavior is very rarely preserved in stone so the only evidence we have is brain size to body size adjusted for bauplan, or EQ (Encephalization Quotient).

By this measure raptors were extremely smart non-avain dinosaurs or extremely dumb birds.

They're closer to crocodiles in intelligence than they are to birds.
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>>2574245
>They're closer to crocodiles in intelligence than they are to birds.

From the little I've read on Crocodile Intelligence, they are far smarter than we'd expect them to be considering brain size. Or am I wrong on that?
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>>2574246
>am I wrong on that?
no, that's absolutely what has been published lately.

nobody outside ethology agrees with the interpretation, but that's definitely what's been published.

but even if that is true, they're still way less intelligent than a pigeon or an ostrich. They're nowhere close to corvids and psittacines.
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>>2565937
>>2566244
>>2566249
>>2566263
>>2566268

I think what I asked is IS there a missing period in the fossil record large enough to hide the development of a dinosaur civilization, not whether or not the evidence can survive for hundreds of millions of years.

Two things have to happen for every fossil to be found. One, the thing has to be buried in material that will promote fossilization and Two, the fossil's strata has to be exposed at the surface where the fossil can be collected.

Is every strata of petrified sediment from the age of the dinosaurs exposed somewhere on Earth, or are there missing periods?
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>>2574267
why would your civilization have to be in the missing strata and not the known ones?

unless you have an answer to that your question is meaningless.
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>>2574277
We were speculating on the development of an advanced culture in dinosaur times. I believe it didn't happen because no one has found a dinosaur skeleton with a bullet hole in it or a clay pot from 90mya.

Unless

there are gaps in the fossil record large enough to hide one. I'm neither a paleontologist or a geologist so I asked a basic question and got answers from 12 year olds.
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We could have been reptiles.
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>>2574475
>there are gaps in the fossil record large enough to hide one
there are both temporal and geographical holes in the fossil record large enough to hide a civilization.

however that's the opposite of how science works.

Science: We have most of the strata and they don't contain evidence of civilization so it's reasonable to assume the few we don't have also don't. (conclusion by induction).

Religion: Information is missing and that's where our fantasies all come true. (argument from ignorance).
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>>2574492
I think you would need a gap of something like 30my to hide the development of an advanced civilization. It took that long to go through all the vaguely humanoid precursors that lead to us and there's nothing like that in the dinosaur fossil record. They spent 30my becoming birds which is a good thing considering only the birds survived. I would imagine there are no gaps that big.
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>>2574521
>It took that long to go through all the vaguely humanoid precursors
yeah, I mean if every adaptation of the body is interpreted as progression towards civilization, but I don't think that's the case. For example a couple dinosaurs had opposable digits like we do but nobody thinks they made and used tools just because they also had microbrains. Likewise enlargement of the hyoid is common in dinosaurs, which in humans is interpreted as an adaptation for speech but again isn't seen that way in dinosaurs because microbrains.

I suppose part of the problem is we only have one technological species to compare them to, and that's us. So we don't really know how technocultures would evolve in other animals. We do know dinosaurs had tiny little brains though, and none of them seem to have gained even bird-like brain sizes.

a 30my gap in the geological record is common enough though. The biggest reason we have to doubt dinosaurs got much smarter in those gaps is that the dinosaurs before and after the gaps are pretty much the same.
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>>2569635
Goddamn, imagine seeing this then it lets out such a loud growl that you can feel it in your body.
>>
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>>2574486
>assuming any and all intelligent life would take on a humanoid form

This thing has long since debunked as silly scifi speculation. Why would it necessarily need to become more erect, drop on to the flats of its feet and lose its tail just to become a reptilian version of us? The closest that modern relatives of the dinosaurs get to a similar sort of posture are probably penguins, and they aren't famed for being particularly agile on land or intelligent
>>
>>2574523
There could have been a short lived civilization isolated on a reasonably large island like Papua New Guinea, where chances of fossilization were poor and selective pressures favored bigger brains.

Imagine raptors building more and more elaborate nests to attract females the way bower birds do, with females preferring more and more elaborate designs leading to bigger brains and males working in groups to build nest cities and accidentally discovering animal husbandry when prey species can be corralled by the nests and raised in numbers larger than would occur naturally, leading to even bigger cities, raptor languages, religions, wars, and then a volcano wipes it all out before it can spread to the rest of the world.
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>>2575974
yes, there also could've been a dinosaur that evolved into a flying unicorn and learned the ways of elven magic,

it's just not fucking likely.
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>>2576027
>a pony village is missing its idiot
>>>/mlp/
>>
>>2576028
it's just as likely as any other outcome for which we have no evidence.

Maybe a dinosaur evolved into a spacefaring teapot and found itself in orbit around the sun between the Earth and Mars.
there's certainly no evidence it didn't happen, and there's gaps in the fossil record large enough for it to have happened.
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>>2575974
what if a short lived civilization of dinosaurs engaged in space travel and are now living in the dark side of the moon, while the rest of dinosaurs died after the meteor?
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>>2576041
A civilization can’t get to the Moon without first going everywhere else on Earth leaving all kinds of signs where we could find them.

>>2576033
Nobody’s saying absence of evidence against is evidence of, you twit.
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>>2576053
>Nobody’s saying absence of evidence against is evidence of, you twit.
neither am I

I am saying a lack of evidence is not your opportunity to insert whatever absurd fantasy comes into your head and declare, "it could've happened."
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>>2576053
>you twit.
The problem is that anon still hasn't explained why his putative dinosaur civilization must be located in the geologic unconformities rather than the strata we know.

for them to be there we'd first need a reason why they'd be there. Maybe he thinks dinosaur civilizations by their very nature stop the deposition of sediments. Whatever, there needs to be a reason.

Without a reason, the obvious alternative reason comes up- they have to be in the missing parts because they haven't been found in the parts we know. This is a classical argument from ignorance. The domain of religious minds and other sorts of applesauce-sucking morons.

The same argument used by the crowd that says "Tyrannosaurus feathers must be located on the parts we haven't found yet."
Why?
"Because they're not on the parts we HAVE found."

this is a particular sort of retardation, and can be used to make ANY claim. And most of /an/ is dumb enough to fall for it.




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