[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vr / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / asp / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / wsg / wsr / x] [Settings] [Search] [Home]
Board
Settings Home
/co/ - Comics & Cartoons



Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.




Am i the only one that thinks that the way Marvel tried to push the Green Goblin as Spider-Man arch-nemesis since the 90s feels forced?
>>
>>102954109
Honestly even before the 90s push the Green Goblin was the golden standard of Spider-Man's villains. The whole Goblin legacy was always the top of the rogue crop, mainly Norman Harry and Roderick.
>>
No, but I think making him a cartoonish psychopath ruined him.
>>
no because it's a very well developed relationship
>>
>>102954408
Yup. Norman was most effective as a Jekyll/Hyde type of villain, whose schemes were ambitious but not on the edge of parody.
>>
>>102954422
Lizard aleady covered the Jekkyl/Hide archetype.

Straight-up evil!Norman is a better villain. He has more drive and can antagonize Peter in both areas of his lives.

That said I think he is at he is at his best when there's a distinction between Norman and GG, with the former being a corrupt evil buisnessman and Goblin being the wilder crazy super-villain that Norman either suppresses or indulges in.
I also don't like how apparently he doesn't care about his wife or even Harry anymore.
He should care, just in a very messed up kind of way. That was part of his dynamic with Peter.
>>
>>102954588
I like to think that he DOES care about Harry in a messed up way. He intentionally degrades his son as a form of tough love because when Harry was the Goblin, he was a greater villain than Norman.

I like Norman as Spider-Man's arch-nemesis because he is the perfect antithesis of Peter's creed: Great Power with No Responsibility. Venom and Ock hate Peter but also see him something great that they must tear down. Norman doesn't care about Peter and only ruins his life because Spider-Man is the one person who ever told him no. His pettiness sets him apart from all other villains.
>>
The whole "evil-mastermind-that-plans-everything-ahead-to-mess-up-with-Pete" got tiresome after a while
>>
>>102954109
They didn't push him in the 90's. Norm was dead, Harry was dead by 92-ish. Even Hobgoblin was mostly replaced by Demogoblin for much of the decade.

The Norman push came around in the early 00's after the movie made him popular.
>>
I enjoy Norman pretty much every time he comes around. Ock is, let's face it, a beta male. He serves that purpose, he's the opposite geek...he's the negative "i must show the world" geek to Peter's positive "i'm content being smart and living my life" geek, it works. But Norman works as a pure alpha male type to the nerdy bookish Peter, he's the perfect Spider-Man villain.

Also, Norman has always been a dick from what I remember, sure he was crazier as the Goblin but from what I recall he was never a sympathetic villain or anything, he was a dick as Norman and being the Goblin just made him a bigger dick. I could be wrong but I don't remember him ever coming off as a nice guy either way.
>>
>>102954109
Norman never really did have any good motivation to do the Goblin thing. He already had money, fame, power, a comfy job, etc. There was no reason to put on a mask and go bank robbing when he was already filthy rich and a single day at the office brought in more than he could grab from an armored truck anyway.

It's like he is the most extreme version of a bored thrill seeker. Since there is no other reason to be a supervillain.

>Mysterio, Vulture, Venom, Shocker and Scorpion have the constantly looking for REVENGE thing down, and every time they reappear it's something personal
>Doc Oc is the evil genius who makes detailed plans and elaborate machines for revenge or extortion
>Electro, Sandman, Speed Demon, are the ones who lucked up and got superpowers one day and decided to go rob banks
>Lizard, Man-wolf, and Carrion, are the tragic ones who were transformed into monsters and cannot help themselves
>>
>>102955232
Dr Octopus is standard evil scientist villain. He either builds earthquake machines, nightmare machines, or something else weird and nonsensical like that because it's what all the Sivana/Luthor types in the labcoats do.

Oc is just a little more useful since he can put up a decent fight with Peter once the plans fall apart.
>>
>>102954109
Hobgoblin was better
>>
>>102955148
>They didn't push him in the 90's. Norm was dead

He came back at the end of the Clone saga, it didn't take too for him to return again and again
>>
>>102955248
>Norman never really did have any good motivation to do the Goblin thing. He already had money, fame, power, a comfy job, etc. There was no reason to put on a mask and go bank robbing when he was already filthy rich and a single day at the office brought in more than he could grab from an armored truck anyway.
>It's like he is the most extreme version of a bored thrill seeker. Since there is no other reason to be a supervillain.

That sounds like a perfect and unique motivation to me. Norman is not satisfied enough ever, he always wants more power, has to keep working toward more and more levels of what he sees as dominance and superiority because he has nothing else in life. He's like Gene Simmons.
>>
>>102954109
He'd already acquired a legendary reputation just because of the mystery behind his identity alone. Add Gwen's death, his legacy characters, and his prominence in the Harry Osborn drug storyline, and it cemented him in the supervillain hall of fame. He's in nearly every media adaptation, even during periods where he hadn't been mentioned for years.
>>
>>102955248
He doesn't have a motivation. He's a headcase in the Lee run and he falls into psychotic states where he disassociates himself from "Norman" and becomes the Goblin
>>
>>102954408
Pretty much this
>>
>>102954109
It's probably because of the 90's show, but I like Kingpin as Spidey's 'behind the scenes' villain more than Norman
Norman's a good villain, but I just don't like him working from the shadows and funding other villains like he did in Spectacular (though the show was amazing)
>>
>>102954588
Lizard's aspect of it is different though. Fights with the Lizard are just about Curt getting normal again. When Norman is the Goblin, there's a sense of Armageddon to it.

>Started a gang war in New York City, which culminated in him taken down Spidey, having him chained up, then throwing him in front of the entire criminal underworld
>Destroyed Spidey's reputation which led to every villain in the city wanting to hunt him down
>Came up with a methodical plan to unmask Spider-Man, spent time gathering his information from afar, then ambushed and beat the shit out of Peter, dragged him unmask over the city, then led to a showdown at his lair
>Whenever Norman would become Goblin again he would immediately go after Peter and try to destroy his home or attack someone Peter cared about
>Killed Gwen Stacy
>Created a legacy of arch enemies, including his own son
>>
File: Green-Goblin-Mystery-04.jpg (245 KB, 1302x704)
245 KB
245 KB JPG
I don't like how they've moved away from the Jekyll/Hyde thing and just made Norman an asshole 100% of the time

Early on it was very much "Norman is a decent guy, the Goblin is his ID unleashed by chemicals" but since coming back, and very explicitly in Marvel Knights Spidey (written by Millar, the dude with even less subtlety for villains than Morrison) he's just a bastard all the time

That's one thing I like about the PS4 Spider-Man game, it tries to humanize Norman a bit, even if he's still a shitty rich guy

granted none of this is as annoying as generic girlfriend Mary Jane THANKS A BUNCH RAIMI/DUNST/BENDIS
>>
>>102955248
>Norman
>Bank robbing

Norman is all about control. The Goblin persona represents Norman's ambition to have whatever he doesn't already own. His entire obsession with ruling all the crime families was because he wants more power.
>>
>>102955879
I agree. Norman works best not as a mastermind, but a Molotov cocktail that shows up and ruins everything for everyone. That's what he essentially is in the rogues gallery, as that unstable bomb that everyone's scared to deal with because he has no problem chopping off his own hand if it means he wins.
>>
>>102955879
>Norman's a good villain, but I just don't like him working from the shadows and funding other villains like he did in Spectacular (though the show was amazing)

I agree, i didn't like it either when they changed his character in the clone saga, even Tom Defalco tried to argue against it

> It was Harras's vision that Norman had been secretly orchestrating the events of the clone saga, manipulating everything from the shadows, and for him to do that to the extent that Harras wanted, Norman could not have been in a hospital bed for the past five years.

>I clearly remember Tom DeFalco's response to Harras. Tom bluntly stated that he didn't buy for one second that Norman Osborn would ever be satisfied with operating in the shadows, hiding, secretly manipulating everyone and everything over such a long period of time. Tom felt that this would be way out of character for Norman. "Norman deals with his problems directly," Tom argued. "He doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. He's a guy who addresses his problems by putting on a Green Goblin costume, flying across the city on a bat-glider, and destroying any obstacles with his own hands. He knows he has power, and he likes to use it. He's not a master manipulator who likes to stay hidden."
>>
>>102954109
My favorite villain was the Human Fly. I remember having the comic that had him on the cover.

Spider and Fly seems like a no brainer.

Has he made any appearances in the newer comics or games?
>>
>>102954109
You're not alone. I think Norman was better off staying dead.

>>102955148
You didn't read comics in the mid/late 90's, did you? The Clone Saga ended in 1996 with Norman standing revealed as the true mastermind of the whole thing, then he died, and then came back months later. Then there was a bunch of storyarcs involving him like how Spider-Man got framed for something and how he had to use for new identities to go heroing. There was also the fight between him and Roderick Kingsley. And then there was also The Final Chapter. And then John Byrne decided to add a retcon to Spider-Man's history where Norman Osborn hired many of Spider-Man's villains. He was definitely getting pushed as Spider-Man's greatest villain in the 90's.
>>
>>102956799
90s was 10 years, for which Norman was only back for four of

Granted, if you include the idea that Norman was the one behind the Clone Saga, then yeah but that was a last-minute addition
>>
I feel they should have left Norman dead. Kept his legacy alive as Spider-mans' greatest foe. Then made the Hobgoblin the main goblin in Spider-man's rogues gallery.
>>
>>102954109
Yes.
Since he wasn't even pushed in that era, and he was the arch-nemesis long before that
>>
I like Norman when he’s clearly a rich dick who is doing this for fun. Interested to see how PS4/Insomniac Norman pans out, because their Otto was pretty good.
>>
>>102955879
>It's probably because of the 90's show, but I like Kingpin as Spidey's 'behind the scenes' villain more than Norman
Norman's motif doesn't even make sense as the master planner. He is designed to look like a crazy goblin, so why would a writer make him into Lex Luthor?
Doc Oc is clearly designed to be a fat, intelligent guy, the Kingpin is designed to look like an ultra mob boss, and Goblin is designed to look like a monster throwing pumpkins at people.
It's like making Catwoman into a straight up street brawler. It goes completely against the design.
>>
He’s Spider-Man’s greatest foe
>>
>>102956866
>I feel they should have left Norman dead.
That was never going to happen in this industry.
>>
The only time Goblin can be good as a main villain is if it's the cheesy Willem Dafoe style Goblin.
https://youtu.be/VcTzMM0fwZo
>>
>>102956866
I like Hobgoblin and he has a wicked design, but I don't see how he's important villain material. They got some mileage out of him, sure, but even still he never did anything important or had any great effect, he just has no personal connection to Spider-Man to make him arch foe tier, or really any better than most of Spider-Man's foes in terms of importance on the narrative. He's just another costumed crook who happens to have the misfortune of Spider-Man being the one always stopping him.
>>
File: RCO021_1469440840.jpg (1.39 MB, 1007x1500)
1.39 MB
1.39 MB JPG
>>102955890
>Started a gang war in New York City, which culminated in him taken down Spidey, having him chained up, then throwing him in front of the entire criminal underworld
Why did no other Spidey media go for this angle? It gave Goblin motivation before hating Spider-Man.
Now that I think about it, in the issue where Goblin reveals his identity, even Stan retconned his original motivation to being "fuck Spider-Man".
>>
>>102954679
>Venom is a dark mirror of Spider-Man
>Doc Ock is a dark mirror of Peter Parker
>Green Goblin is a dark mirror of Peter's greed like anon mentioned

I like how all villains do have something in common with Spider-Man and Peter Parker
>>
>>102957192
I feel after losing to Spider-Man those times really pissed Goblin off.
>>
File: comeatmegoblinbro.jpg (9 KB, 161x269)
9 KB
9 KB JPG
>>102955264

So true anon. So true...
>>
>>102956799
Now that you mention it, norman wasn't present at all during the JMS run, was he dead or presumed dead by that point? Because i think he didn't come back until thunderbolts
>>
>>102957237
>>Venom is a dark mirror of Spider-Man
This is really not true though, nothing about Eddie is anything reflecting anything about Peter at least IMO.

All there is there is the fact that his look is Spider-Man but buff and with a giant mouth, but character wise there is no real parallel to be drawn IMO
>>
>>102957362
He was in Jenkins' run (I think the Goblin arc happened around JMS' second year on ASM). And no, he came back before Thunderbolts. Mark Millar wrote the Spider-Man series that had him as a villain, remember?
>>
The concept of Green Goblin worked fine until Norman literally started coming back from the dead to continue messing with Spider-Man and then getting away with it scott free.
>>
>>102957409
Yeah, people forget that Gwen's death was more effective when Norman was dead.
>>
>>102956862
>90s was 10 years, for which Norman was only back for four of

People think the Image artstyle and gun-toting antiheroes was the only thing around in the 90's and that was predominantly early 90's. Four years of consistency of doing something is enough for someone to consider it 90's.
>>
File: spidey-humanflies.jpg (38 KB, 720x540)
38 KB
38 KB JPG
yeah norman should have stayed dead. one of the worst retcons

>>102956200
i wish these guys were his arch enemies
>>
Need some help and don't want to create a thread for this one. Anyone got the sauce on that one Spiderman comic where Peter was somewhat mutated but not Man Spider level mutated.

I remember the art style being a bit darker and Peter wearing sunglasses in a dark room because he had multiple light sensitive eyes or something.

>About the villain thing
I think that he works better as just having a Rouges Gallery. The Sinister 6 I think is best suited as a single entity with the motive of "Fuck Spiderman"
>>
>>102956001
To be fair early on he's a straight up bastard. He tries to murder Spidey before he's revealed as the Goblin and even chronologically he screwed over Mendel Stromm before the explosion that created the Goblin.
>>
>>102954109
I hate Green Goblin. Not even in a "Oh what a great villain" way, I just want him to disappear because he pisses me off constantly.
>>
>>102957701
Why though? He's not even the worst (as in shitty) villain Marvel has that """"honor"""" goes to Purple Man
>>
Have Green Goblin and Kingpin ever shared a scene? What is their relationship like?
>>
Did anyone ever considered Doc Ock being Spider-Man's true archenemy?
>>
>>102958679
No, but I used to consider him a great villain. Then Slott ruined him for me.
>>
>>102954109
He's essentially Spiderman's Joker
>>
>>102957192
It's made pretty clear that Gobby's obsession stems from Peter constantly interfering with his plans.
>>
>>102956200
He was actually really cool. I wish he would be given more stories as a legit threat.

>>102957572
They were cool too. So was Noah Body.
>>
>>102958679
In the gold-standard Lee run, he's definitely the second most important villain after the Goblin. Kingpin probably comes in at third and Curt Connors after that.
>>
File: rhino runs.gif (1.53 MB, 350x264)
1.53 MB
1.53 MB GIF
>>102954109
real spidey arch enemy coming through
>>
>>102955248
Norman for the most part was the wacky gimmick joke prop clown villain. Like the Joker/Prankster/Trickster/Harley type and his shtick is Halloween themed gadgets meant to kill superheroes. While Joker is all playing cards and clowns, Trickster is wacky toys and pun based gadgets,


Making him into the evil plotting mastermind that lurks in the shadows setting up evil scheme after evil scheme was a huge departure for the character. Now Norman the plotting mastermind does not really mix well with Green Goblin the wacky laughing nutcase. And in the late 00's Norman was the bigger more popular villain.
>>
>>102957237
>>102957384
Venom was meant to be the evil guy with spider powers. Like his Zoom/Sinestro, that similar powered villain guy. Before they started giving everyone spider powers for reasons that make no sense.

For a while before all things symbiote became huge, Venom was the only other guy with wall crawling, web shooting, and a big spider on his chest.
>>
>>102958921
when he's norman he's essentially marvel's Lex Luthor these days
>>
>>102958679
In the 80's he was. Oc was the big bad of the villains after Norman died and before Venom was made that took most of the fan popularity.
>>
>>102958679
I always considered Ock the arch enemy and Goblin the greatest enemy, if that makes sense.
>>
File: RCO008_1469399385.jpg (411 KB, 805x1139)
411 KB
411 KB JPG
>>102957631
>I remember the art style being a bit darker and Peter wearing sunglasses in a dark room because he had multiple light sensitive eyes or something.
Not sure about a comic like that with Peter, but it sounds kinda like Miguel.
>>
>>102957153
But I feel that difference in motive made both unique and interesting. Norman was insane and completely obsessed with Spider-man. Conversely, the Hobgoblin is in it for the money and is more tactical. His only concern with Spider-man is that he is a constant obstacle to his plans. I think that difference makes them unique and both formidable. If the Hobgoblin was just another insane, Spider-man-obsessed goblin, then he's just a watered-down Norman clone. This way he's unique and possibly even more dangerous, since he'll use his brains and devices to beat Spider-man, whereas Norman's insanity and obsession is often his downfall.
>>
>>102959024
Nah, Hobgoblin was the primary villain in the 80’s. It always comes back to Norman.
>>
What other villains have an alter ego? Like Joker is Joker all the time. Luthor never puts on a mask or pretends to be someone else. Besides Norman, what villain isn’t a supervillain all the time?
>>
>>102954109
Norman has been Spider-Mans archenemy since the almost the beginning. Even after he died he left Peter with a legacy of duplicates, copy-cats, and imitators.
>>
>>102959360
not many. only ones I cant think of are people like man bat who turn into some kind of monster
>>
>>102954109
What always stood out to me in their rivalry is that there's really no symbolism to emphasize upon:
Physically powerful Superman vs. politically powerful Lex Luthor
Serious and brooding Batman vs. wacky and random Joker
Righteous and loyal Captain America vs. vile and unscrupulous Red Skull
Lawful Daredevil dressed up as a devil vs. corrupted Kingpin with a good public image
Quipping Spider-Man vs. laughing Green Goblin?
???
See? It's clear Goblin's original design was random, and there's virtually zero connection to draw between spiders and goblins. Not that it makes their rivalry bad, but it just makes it harder to write convincingly, since there's no apparent deeper meaning you can latch onto like with the cases I listed. So nowadays it's often just GWEN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
>>
>>102954109
Not at all. He is Spider-Man's arch-nemesis. Only Ock comes close.
>>
>>102959024
>Early Ditko: Ock
>Late Ditko: Ock and Green Goblin I
>Romita: Green Goblin I with Kingpin filling in the amnesia moments
>Early Conway: Green Goblin I
>Post-Gwen Conway: Jackal with Goblin II secondary
>Stern: Hobgoblin
>DeMatteis: Green Goblin II
>Michelenie: Venom and Carnage
>Mid to late 90s: Resurrected Green Goblin I with Jackal as secondary
>>
>>102958979
That's true but it's only superficial
I even think Goblin being a sort of dark mirror is a stretch, but even if we roll with that
>Norman is super powers but abusing them, and while Pete is a young broke kid Norman is an old successful man
>Otto is a bad ending science nerd as opposed to Peter's good
What is Venom? To me, I just don't see any line that can be drawn between him and Peter other than the suit itself. Venom was a crazy guy who thought he would be doing the right thing by killing a super hero cause in his mind he was justified, like one might think "ok maybe he's Peter if Peter killed people", but Eddie isn't smart or a scientist, he's not even what if Parker was insane, he's just a totally different character, not an opposite in any way
>>
>>102957192
I was shocked how much Weisman pulled out of Ditko/Lee when it came to the Green Goblin, and I loved it.
>>
>>102959563
I like it when they play up the Father/Son angle between Norman and Peter, with Norman seeing Peter as the son he should've had.

But yeah, there's nothing really deep between Spider-Man and Goblin.
>>
>>102959360
Deathstroke, Deadshot, Catman, Catwoman, Firefly, Man-Bat, Hush, Killer Moth...

I guess anyone who relies excessively on gear, transformations or a costume gimmick can more easily switch between civilian and supervillian personas, as opposed to someone like Joker or Luthor or Zod who are always just themselves.
>>
>>102959563
>>102959592
>Stern: Hobgoblin
On a side note, Stern himself said that he viewed Vulture as the definitive Spider-Man enemy, talking about how their rivalry is one of ages and tactics. Where Spider-Man is young, courageous and passionate, while Vulture is old, burnt-out and egoitistical. It's kind of a neat way of looking at it, and I think it definitely provides a better symbolic rivalry than whatever Peter and Norman have going on right now. But it's just hard to write Vulture as a convincing archenemy, ironically enough he's too down-to-earth for that to work, so Stern stuck with Hobgoblin instead.
>>
>>102958979
>giving everyone spider powers for reasons that make no sense.
To be fair, his clones and kids have a pretty good reason
Everyone else can fuck off (Miguel's cool due to working on making Spider-people in the far future)
>>102959670
What is Venom?
Venom is Pete's powers turned bad plus knowledge of his personal life
Except when Venom turns out to be a good guy
Really though, Venom was a quick way to slap Pete's powers on some bad hombre for a quick issue and then take them off again.
Ups the danger factor for a quick time
>>
>>102958679
Slott ruined that for me.
>>
>>102959563
That's fine to me. Spider-Man was created to be a foil to other major super heroes. He's poor, young, has girl trouble, disliked by the public, gets sick, has to sew his costume, etc. His nemesis doesn't need to be a personality or thematic opposite because Spidey himself wasn't archetypical.
>>
>>102954109
I like him a lot as Peter's arch-enemy.
>>
>>102956200
he sorta appeared in the Venom comics with Flash a few years back, in the Savage Six run.
>>
>>102958679
I like him as the archenemy. I view him as Spider-Man's Lex Luthor in regards to him being his main lucrative rival, whilst Goblin is more of a Brainiac in that he's the big "oh shit he's here" kind of villain.
>>
>>102959747
Stern's Vulture stories are what made him one of my favorite Spider-Man villains. The idea of an aging man who uses supervillainy as a way to push himself and try to prove to himself that he isn't tired out did wonders for Toomes as a character.
>>
I like the look of the Hobgoblin better. But, I can get why the Green Goblin is better for being better written.
>>
>>102959563
You're missing the angle, then, because it's "Responsible and honest Spider-Man vs. Morally bankrupt and power abusive Green Goblin." Just as Peter is almost a bomb to criminals in that he clears them out, Goblin comes in and, with that same level of force, takes complete control of whatever he touches.
>>
>>102960254
Hobgoblin for sure has the better costume
>>
>>102958979
>>102959813
I am not a fan of Doc Oc being an evil Spider-Man with robot arms. Oc already had a decent thing going on and I am usually not a fan of mirror image villains. But taking an established villain and turning them into a mirror evil twin is weird to me.

Venom worked well enough as the evil spider guy.
>>
>>102958679
Nice try, Slott.
>>
>>102959563
Not everyone has to be a symbolic representation of some kind of real life struggle.

Spider-Man is a low level street guy that takes on purse snatchers and bank robbers. Most of his villains reflect that. I kind of prefer the other guys like Electro and Sandman who are like Peter in that they are ordinary guys who happen to get superpowers one day and they use them for personal gain.
>>
>>102960833
>Not everyone has to be a symbolic representation of some kind of real life struggle.
>Spider-Man is a low level street guy that takes on purse snatchers and bank robbers. Most of his villains reflect that.
very true. Batman has way more villains that fit the symbolic representation aspect youre describing
>>
>>102960815
I think it's a shame how many "archenemy" villains Spider-Man has
>Lizards and Scorpions are natural predators to spiders
>Doc Ock was pretty much a dark mirror of Peter written as a mad scientist
>Venom got written into being a lethal protector and got his shit stolen in the 2000's when nobody liked him
>Doc Ock was literally Peter but they're half-buddies for some reason
>Green Goblin's character is just all over the fucking place
>>
>>102960864
Now that you opened that wound, it's really sad to see how much Scorpion is mistreated. Powerhouse sociopath is not a complex character, but it has much more potential than just "LOL HE'S SUCH A LOSER" bullshit writers are pulling.
>>
>>102954588
>He should care, just in a very messed up kind of way.
He does, he saved Harry's life and blew his cover when he didn't have to. He may talk shit about him, but he still cares.
>>
File: DiAKICfVAAEvNHN.jpg (461 KB, 965x1200)
461 KB
461 KB JPG
>>102960815
Dematteis otto is my favourite characterization, him being a man of science and honor who respects his rival was really cool to me, honestly most pre-slott characterizations of him were great, now he is a caricature of what he once was
>>
>>102957153
Kingsley's deal is that he wasn't driven insane by the goblin juice. I like him better than Norman most of the time.
>>
I think resurrecting Norman and pushing him hard as Peter's nemesis did indeed feel forced, but I almost feel like it was worth it because I love Norman and I love having him around. I think he really does have the best character dynamic with Spider-Man.
>>
File: Death in the Family.png (2.44 MB, 937x1070)
2.44 MB
2.44 MB PNG
>>102959563
>Peter is very talented but can't help as many people as he wants because he doesn't have the money and the time
>Osborne has all the time and money in the world and squanders it on toys and revenge schemes
>Peter tries to keep his mental health in check, and is willing to throw away the suit if it becomes to much for him, Norman wallows in his illness
>Peter started from nothing and tries to work his way up, Norman is introduce at the top and lowers himself to petty villainy
>Peter feels like he owes it to the world, Norman feels like the world is owed to him
>Peter's one remaining family member is the most important person in the world to him that can do no wrong in his eyes, Norman's one remaining family member is the most important person in the world to him, but is huge source of disappointment,
>that juicy tension in the time both thought the other was willing to hurt Harry to get to them

In terms of what goblins have to do with spiders, you're taking their costumes too literally. the point is that they are both in full alteregos when they suit up. Peter's first thought of what to do with his powers was wrestling and showbiz, the inspiration behind his costume wasnt a spider but spider-themed luchador. which has remained part of his subtext. Green Goblin compliments that perfectly. Hes a goblin themed luchador. He cares about kayfabe, about putting on a good show, he brings all their personal beef to the forfront of their fights. He's the heel to Spider-Man's face and he loves it. New York is their ring for no holds barred brutal smackdowns, grudge match after grudge match after grudge match. even 'who will be unmasked and have to retire' was a big angle of their early encounters
>>
>>102961058
And read this shit as a kid. Ock being a white suited guy making out with some super model psycho path was cool as shit.
>>
>>102961058
>>102961353
Yea this is what I first saw too. White Suit Oc with a superstrong girlfriend.
>>
>>102961212
You make a very good point. Spider-Man represents who Peter wants to be: Confident, daring, and heroic. The Goblin represents Norman's innermost desires: Power, no consequences, and the ability to achieve whatever he wants.

In a way, Norman with amnesia is the perfect display of Peter's antithesis, in that you have a father-esque figure who is jaded and not above being underhanded, whose alter ego is raw ambition and ID.
>>
Remember that time when Norman was sneaking in bits of goblin serum into Peter's toothpaste so that Peter would be his successor?
>>
>>102961874
that happened?
>>
>>102961874
I wonder what fucking fever dream Marvel was in during that whole thing. Who the fuck thought any of it was a good idea?
>>
>>102961881
Oh it happened
Looks like I found the last fansite, and it even has an article about it
http://www.thegreengoblinshideout.com/peter-parker-the-goblin-heir
>>
>>102960981
Yeah, that was a moment I liked. Writers switch back and forth on the topic.
Overall I liked American Son but it bugged me that he was planning on murdering Harry for PR. It's not that I don't think he'd kill him but it should hold more weight to Norman than most of his victims.

The Red Goblin arc you could write the attempted murder off as Carnage's influence, but I don't know what the hell they where doing with Emily.
>>
>>102961874
That book tramautized me.
>The scene where Peter hallucinates Norman as Uncle Ben and Ben tells him to join him in death
>>
>>102957192
His name is... Crime-Master? Hahaha, fucking based.
>>
File: 03.jpg (510 KB, 1061x1500)
510 KB
510 KB JPG
>>102963492
Where do you think Fisk's terrific supervillain name comes from? Lee was pretty bad with coming up with names for criminal bosses. There was one in Daredevil that was just called "The Boss".
>>
>>102963573
But i like Crime Master...
>>
>>102963764
Nobody said it wasn't accidentally brilliant sometimes.
>>
>>102963764
>>102963785
I absolutely love Crime-Master. You can instantly see that he is the man who knows what he wants very well and is in his rightful place. I wish he was more popular just because of the name alone. He is the master of cirme, what else is there to tell? Awesome.
>>
So, who is the WORST goblin, /co/? I am not well versed in them, but I know there is a shitload of them. Which should I avoid?
>>
>>102963764
I honestly liked him, and his story with Gobby was great.
>>
>>102963946
Gray, Menace, Proto Goblin, Clone Goblin, and Green Goblin 3 are the bottom of the barrel.
>>
I just got the Spiderman epic vol. 1 the other day, and I gotta say, I am surprised at how many of his iconic villains were there right out of the fucking gate. Just about every issue of the original run in the beginning here is spitting out a villain still around to this day. Also refreshing how quickly paced the stories are.
>>
>>102964614
I thought Menace was cool and where's Demo-Goblin?
>>
>>102956200
He was brought back to life as kind of a fucked up monster in Remender's Punisher, and has been popping up here and there as a thug ever since.
>>
>>102957362
There was Sins Past.

I can't remember the exact circumstances, but he indirectly gave Gabriel the Grey Goblin gear.
>>
File: amaz_289002rx.jpg (294 KB, 550x277)
294 KB
294 KB JPG
>>102963946
Macendale.
>>
>>102958679
Doc Ock is the perfect antithesis for Spidermam. Like Peter, Otto, was a beta nerd who ended up getting superpowers because of an accident. What makes Otto so different is the lack principles that Spider-Man lives up to.
>>
>>102958679
He was definitely great during the sinister six and mcfarlane era when he was rocking the Armani suits. Declined hard after he died and came back looking more like the Rami version with the coats.
>>
>>102960246
>>102959747
I always loved that angle, and I remember the story where he got cancer as one of his best. That said I sometimes wonder how different things would be if they continued the gimmick of the Vulture stealing life to prolong his own back during the arc with Pete's parents and the animated series version.
>>
>>102964971
Menace was dogshit.
>>
I wish Kraven got more love. Never felt he's gotten his due amongst the more well-known members of Spidey's rogues gallery.
>>
>>102965525
He got Kraven's Last Hunt, which everyone lists as a must-read and immediate go to when asked for Spidey recs.
>>
Anyone else liked Harry as the Green Goblin? Personally i enjoyed his "evil-schemer-that-plans-everything-ahead-to-mess-up-with-Pete" period way more than i did with Norman
>>
>>102966311
His death unironically made me tear up. Of course capeshit writers had to destroy any and all impact of that by resurrecting him. Another reason I can't stand BND.
>>
>>102966311
Harry Goblin is one of the most dangerous opponents Peter ever dealt with, and one of the best villain arcs Marvel has ever done.

While Norman was more of a planner, Harry was a straight up sociopath that just burnt everything the fuck down. He bombed Peter's apartment, attached his loved ones to a bunch of death traps, forced Liz, Normie, and Molten Man into a hostage dinner, and would've successfully killed Peter by the end if he hadn't had a change of heart. His death is also one of the most well executed in Marvel, and it makes me mad that they resurrected him.
>>
>>102964683
The villains are consistently iconic for a good while, even well into Romita/Lee's run.
>>
>>102963573
The un-powered crime boss was really a Ditko obsession IIRC. He famously walked out of ASM because he wanted Green Goblin to just be some random criminal. There's definitely a plot in the Ditko run where a master criminal is unmasked to just be a random nobody... he wanted that to be every reveal...
>>
>>102954109
Muppet in a nasty purple diaper. I can suspend my disbelief pretty hard for most capeshit costumes but the Green Goblin has always bothered me.
>>
>>102957013
It literally happened for a couple decades.
>>
Honestly wish they kept Hobgoblin as the big Goblin enemy. The thing that separates him from Harry and Norman is the fact that, unlike both, he doesn't hold grudges. Yes, Spiderman can thwart him, but at the end of the day, he's still dead set on achieving his goals. Plus there was always an unease on who really could be the Hobgoblin.
>>
>>102967688
I loved how he had his agenda and spidey was just an obstacle to him, unlike the green goblins , who live to make peter's life hell
>>
>>102967414
People like to shit on Lee, but he knew how to keep things more structured and relatable than Ditko. Ditko had a massive disconnect when it came to when relationships should be more personal, which is why Norman as the Goblin was such a good idea.
>>
>>102967779
I think that Eddie Brock is a pretty good example of how Ditko's way of thinking was more realistic but works a lot worse
Eddie was built up in the comics a little bit, but he was mostly just a random dude that got the symbiote
Pretty much every adaptation of Venom since has made Peter and Eddie either friends, or in the case of the 90's show and Raimi movies, direct rivals.
>>
>>102965525
Never liked Kraven. I like the colorful-ness of the Spider-Man villains and their whole street level thing. But random Russian big game hunter in furs that does it for the thrill does not really interest me.
>>
>>102960938
It’s a general problem Marvel has in that everyone but the top 3rd of the bad guys are treated as losers and memes.
>>
>>102966311
I thought Harry Goblin worked out. He was a much better opposite Peter. I wish they just kept him alive instead of bringing Norman back.
>>
>>102965659
You could argue the story has lost its impact because Kraven is alive.
>>
>>102968323
What a good run he had, though.
Being dead I mean
They held off resurrecting him longer than they did Jason Todd in the end, didn't they? He might only be surpassed by Bucky Barnes in that aspect.
>>
>>102954408
He was always cartoonish, you idiot, that's the point of his fucking costume. He's deliberately Halloween themed because he wants to be as flamboyant a villain as fucking possible. He rides a giant bat, and before that an actual witch's broom, while dressed as a goblin and throwing god damned Jack-O-Lanterns.
>>
>>102968446
I think he meant Norman going cuckoo after he joined the cabal of losers to get the random presents
>>
>>102957304
At least post the best Hobgoblin
>>
>>102966311
Yep. I think everyone now takes too long setting up Norman as the Goblin so they can do Harry, then a reboot or cancellation happens before they get there.
>>
>>102967819
>Pretty much every adaptation of Venom since has made Peter and Eddie either friends, or in the case of the 90's show and Raimi movies, direct rivals

True, and I hate that myself. It's all preference, but to me the Spider-Man TAS Eddie was the best case of trying to keep it similar to the original but just fudging around some details, every other re-imagined Brock sucked major dick to me
>>
>>102968713
Wrong, not only was he bad, this development was character assasination of his 90s self
>>
>>102967779
>>102967414
thats a misnomer, ditko didn't have an issue with norman being goblin and even wrote norman into old scenes so that the reveal would make sense.
>>
>>102965525
I think a big thing about Kraven is that despite the Hunter theme being tired, it somehow not only fits Spider-Man, but his mentality has a lot of potential as a big time nemesis. Unfortunately the majority of his stories were just him either being an assassin or just hunting, which are good but nothing special character wise. Last Hunt and Blue really showed what you can do with him. But the issue is that resurrecting him, like Norman and Harry, kills all of the emotional impact of them dying.
>>
>>102968713
Fuck this so hard. Phil as a heroic Goblin was fucking great and they ruined his character.
>>
>>102968713
This damn well better be bait. If not, read these if you haven't already done so.
>>102968893
>>102968958
>>
>>102958818
Bakshi didn't give two fucks
>>
File: red-goblin-cover.jpg (951 KB, 932x1400)
951 KB
951 KB JPG
Norman's will is so strong, he's the only person to wear the Carnage symbiote and not be overtaken by it/turned into a Cletus clone
>>
>>102968446
You know exactly what I mean, faggot.
There's a difference between wearing flamboyant outfits and having an theatrical personality much like lots of capeshit villains and being an edgelord to the point where he may as well be a comedic character.
At this point a writer could literally make him eat newborns while masturbating and cackling about Gwen Stacy's death and it wouldn't seem out of character.
>>
>>102969023
I have no fucking idea what was even the point. He had far more personality as a hero than ever did as a boring vllain spouting edgy one-liners yet lacking any charisma of either Kingsley and Osborn. And the less I talk about his autistic crush on Nora Winters, the less annoyed I am even though it's the only thing added at least some personality to him.
Slott kept shoehorning him everywhere for some reason, but why?
It's like Slott thought "they were both teenage heroes with an uncle figure called Uncle Ben, better make him a foil villain. Ain't I clever?" and his thought process just stopped and stagnated there.
>>
Demogoblin is best goblin.
>>
>>102969325
Lets not forget that Phil also pulled a Peter by making videos of himself as Hobgoblin for the Bugle.
>>
File: 1532397189790.jpg (75 KB, 1200x675)
75 KB
75 KB JPG
>>102969890
>Lets not forget that Phil also pulled a Peter
>>
>>102959117

The differences between Norman and Kingsley are the reason why one is arch-enemy tier and the other isn't. Kingsley can't simultaneously be a villain that doesn't care about Spider-Man, with no interest in personal rivalry, and also be Spider-Man's arch-enemy.

A story where the hero is driven by an obsession to defeat a villain that doesn't even care about him could be interesting, but you couldn't sustain that for the years it would take to make a villain into the arch-enemy.
>>
>>102961058
Is 90s spiderman actually good? Should I just skip clone saga? I actively avoid reading it after Venoms first arc.
>>
>>102965225

He had his moments, which is more than Bart Hamilton, Proto-Goblin, Gray Goblin, or the fourth Green Goblin.
>>
>>102970443
I prefer 90's Spider-Man to modern Spider-Man, I'll say that much.
>>
>>102957409
The retcon that brought him back was so fucking stupid.
>>
>>102970443

Venom's first story was 1980s, not 1990s. For 1990s Spider-Man, at least read DeMatteis' run on Spectacular Spider-Man, starting from #178.
>>
>>102957631
The horrible Avengers Disassembled tie-in by Paul Jenkins on Spectacular? #21-25, I think?
>>
>>102958921
I kind of like that; he's a totally different guy in costume, which is rare for bad guys these days. I think they take it a little far, but I can dig Gobby being Norman's literal ID coming out with dumb ideas like "RUBBER SPIDERS THAT SPIN ACID WEBBING AHAHAHAHAHAHA" and then actual Norman looks at his plans to kill Spider-Man like a guy with a hangover would his drunken recordings of the previous night's bender.
>>
>>102960938
He seemed pretty cool when he faced down Carol Danvers, actually.
>>
>>102966311
The whole idea of dueling Spider/Goblin legacies is fantastic, and probably the only time Marvel got the idea of legacy heroism right.
>>
>>102954109

YES

Thank you for pointing this out OP, I've always felt the same way. They wanted to do Batman/Joker with Gobby, and to be fair there were a couple (2) really good stories revolving around the Green Goblins (death of Gwen Stacy and Spectacular #200 where Harry dies), but heel Venom was always the true Arch-nemesis.
Then they decided Osborne needed to be Lex Luthor instead of just creating an interesting new villain and I completely stopped caring about the Green Goblin.
>>
>>102958679

I did for my entire childhood.
>>
>>102961058

Those issues where he saved Peter's life were great. No ulterior motive behind it to fuck over Peter, Doc just didn't want Spider Man to die. Otto was in a good place, he lost some weight, started reading GQ and learned how to dress himself and was dating that Caitlin Fairchild rip off (Stunner, I think her name was?).

THEN HERE COMES THE CLONE SAGA TO RUIN EVERYTHING! OCK JOBS TO KAINE IN LIKE ONE PAGE AND NEW DOCTOR OCTOPUS IS A LADY.
>>
>>102965225
I have to agree
the fact that he didn't stick with being Jack'o Lantern is a fucking disgrace
>>
Best iron man villain
>>
>>102968713
He sucks
>>
>>102954109

He's a Joker/Lex hybrid with intimate knowledge of Peter and uses it to fuck with him while being able to match him physically and mentally.

He's a perfect foil to a superhero with a ridiculous number of powers and advantages over his usual enemies.
>>
>>102974465
>He's a Joker/Lex hybrid

Except he wasn't always like that
>>
>>102970547
Hamilton at least crippled Silvermane.
>>
>>102975059
People didn't really read the pre-90's Spider-Man comics
>>
>>102970443
It's a mix. JM DeMatteis' Spider-Man stories in Spectacular Spider-Man are worth a look (I can't remember how long he was on the book, maybe up till part of clone saga?) David Michelinie's stuff is not bad but it was kind of when ASM got gimmicky (which might not be his fault). Erik Larsen when he was writing and drawing Spider-Man is over-the-top and kind of fun. Even the Clone Saga, as convoluted with terrible scenes and ideas as it was, still had a more competent Peter Parker than the one we've had during the BND/Slott era. Hell, even Ben Reilly who was basically a throwback to the "Poor Peter Parker" era was far more functional than BND/Slott era Peter. Read the comics from when Ben was Spider-Man and you'll see why people were pissed at Slott's Clone Conspiracy.

Post-Clone Saga I remembered the DeZago/Wieringo run on Sensational Spider-Man being decent. Jenkins' Webspinners arc was decent even if sometimes you can really see the Moore derivatives. Byrne/Mackie era was pretty bad but now that we're far removed from it, it looks like it has a more competent Spider-Man than the BND/Slott era one.
>>
Most underused spidey villain coming through
>>
>>102960254
Because ironically Norman took on the original Hobgoblin's methods.
>>
>>102968713
Quiet Dan.
>>
It’s funny; fans got a new arch rival for Spider-Man every few years, sometimes even having the luxury of multiple potential archrivals. Right up until the mid-90’s when the real arch rival was the editor, once the house of ideas ran out of ideas they just went back to Norman over and over...and over...

In the early days you could argue that JJJ (and the Spider-Slayers) was the main rival, or Kingpin (and his inexhaustible supply of goons), or Doc Ock (and his Sinister Six).

Then Norman dominated the 70’s even after his death with his shadow looming over. Harry and Bart. Even the Jackal was derivative of early Goblin appearances, i.e. a cackling green loon.

The 80’s belonged to Hobgoblin, designed specifically to set him apart from Norman and destroy his influence. Methodically tracking down his labs, improving upon his work and then burning everything down. Once the mystery was cut short (gotta love those editors) you could argue that Kraven had a small moment at the top. Ironically, he established his dominance in his swan song much like Norman.

Then Venom sat atop the villain pile...then a smaller edgier red Venom was forced by a rapidly deteriorating creative pool. Then Jackal came back, but no, it was Norman. Then it was...Norman again? Then Norman...then Norman...and ummm Ock but only because Norman was now an Avengers threat. Then Norman of course.

No, the true villains were Quesada and JMS and Slott and every other useless divorced man baby that stamped their feet and ground their teeth at the repugnant notion of story progression.

As a child of the early 80’s Hobgoblin will always be my favorite, mostly because Roger Stern is the fucking man.
>>
>>102969099
right up until he did
>>
>>102969808
You sir. You I like for your underrated taste.
>>
>>102969808
Close but no cigar, cyber > demon
>>
>>102975824
>Macendale
>best anything
Best entertainment value, maybe.
>>
>>102975838
He’s the lovable loser Goblin. Started with a pumpkin on his dead, shit pushed in by Kingsley and Spidermna, Bitter he hires other villain to kill Hobgoblin because he was too cowardly to try himself...ends up only killing a dupe. Adopts the Hobgoblin mantle, sucks. Beaten by Spider-Man, Moon Knight, Venom, Ghost Rider, Harry Osborne, everybody. Tricked by a demon, later abandoned by said demon. Mutilates his body with cybernetic implants...immediately gets his shit pushed in anyway. Killed like a bitch by original Hobgoblin.
>>
>>102975909
I don't actually hate Macendale. I find him funny.
Most of my posts about him are more of childish bullying if you can apply that to fictional characters, rather than outright hate.
>>
>>102975508
What can he do that Mysterio cannot?
>>
>>102964614
Gray Goblin was so lame, even in the story where he was introduced he seems entirely ineffectual and anticlimactic.
>>
>>102954109
>Am i the only one that thinks that the way Marvel tried to push the Green Goblin as Spider-Man arch-nemesis since the 90s feels forced?

No, you aren't the only one. It was a stupid as fuck storyline, and introduced a ton of idiotic retcons.

I don't think anyone, other than Marvel editorials, honestly thought it was a good idea.
>>
>>102956862
>90s was 10 years, for which Norman was only back for four of

And they then retconned that everything that happened in the 90s was basically his master plan to wreck Pete. Also, he fucked Gwen and she had his twins.

Hobgoblin was way better, but editorial changes made his story ending up pretty fucked.
>>
>>102975909
Macendale ended up sucking because he was overused to the point of obnoxiousness, and basically came off as Mackie's pet character, like Vermin was for DeMatteis (though unlike Mackie, DeMatteis actually managed to write a few compelling stories for his pet).
>>
>>102954109
Marcos Martin is dollar store charles vess that only slott bandwagoners overrate
>>
>>102971103
That didn't tie at all with disassembled funnily enough
>>
File: 1531291496321.jpg (117 KB, 400x395)
117 KB
117 KB JPG
>>102969808

HELL YES!
>>
File: 1486948191203.jpg (2.12 MB, 1988x3056)
2.12 MB
2.12 MB JPG
>>102976311

I think in the end even Mackie himself realized that no matter how much he improved Jason, the irony was he was still a joke and even realized it in his final appearance as Hobgoblin.





Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.