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Let's end this wild ride, shall we?
>>
>>95311785
Surprised nobody had done this yet
>>
>>95311785
More like mild ride.
>>
>>95311806
Why didn't they ever send any super-villains to this Shadow Pillar place if it's so great?
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Oh boy, are we in store for heavy handed event cleanup?
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>>95311828
>>
>>95311854
>>
>>95311879
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>>95311906
Couldn't they combine the recap page and the characters page into one page?
>>
Is there any chance the other Steve being alive will make for good stories in the future?
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>>95311932
I really like it when they use old comic book panels like this.
>>
>>95311965
He'll just be used as a strawman for the alt-right instead of an character.
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>>95311975
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>>95311988
*an actual character, meant to say
>>
>>95311996
Captain Hydra is conveniently leaving out a bunch of stuff to do pull this "I did nothing illegal" card.
Is he forgetting that he was the reason the Chitauri were coming to Earth in the first place?
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>>95312024
>>
>>95311828
Because it's a lot safer having them in Ryker's Island, so if they escape they're right in the middle of the most populated place in the country or something.
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>>95312024
Like he says, he pardoned himself for all the stuff he did leading up to him coming to power.
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>>95312059
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>>95311975
Oh look! Some art from better Cap stories!
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>>95312096
>>
Why aren't they reviving las vegas, nat, rick or flag again?
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>>95312149
Nicky boy doesn't want to erase his entire run from existence.
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>>95312133
Black Widow is alive.
Can't say I'm surprised. But Rick Jones is still dead so the bingo card stays.
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>>95312149
How would they?
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>>95312059
How does anyone know about what happened to Jack Flagg? There were no witnesses and I don't think anyone revealed it, and Cap and Hydra Cap don't share memories.
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>>95312161
>>95312149
In-universe reason: Kobik wants them to "keep the scars" as a GRIM REMINDER
Real reason: they want to pretend this event had real lasting consequences.
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>>95312149
Because it's an event that totally matters. Those deaths are totally gonna stick.
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>>95312149
I read an interview with Spencer. He doesn't want to admit that he wrote a shit story that required he explicitly lie about the ending. In Universe "Kobik understood there needed to be consequences."
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>>95312096
Calling it now: the only reason they killed BW is because Scarlett Johansson is gonna be leaving the movies after Avengers 4.
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>>95312149
Rick, the people of Vegas, and Jack will remain dead.
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>>95312161
>the only casualties of Spencer's run are white men
>>
>>95312149
I would want them to rebuild Las Vegas as the cess pool it should be. Business Villains vying for control through old mob type extortion and gangwarfare. Kingpin/Tombstone and other villains rebuilding it into a icon of shit where all villains run around doing odd jobs for other bigger bads.
>>
>>95312196
Shit, I'm a retard, sorry, I totally blanked out on this being a storytime.
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>>95312195
But all those "scars" are Kobik's fault!

FFS, this is one storyline where completely retconning it at the end would be totally justified by the original set up.
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>>95312195
>>95312177
Steve actually got a glimpse into everything that Captain Hydra had done while going through his Cosmic Cube wild ride, just before being freed.
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>>95312177
Didn't Kobik show Cap every thing that hydra cap did?
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>>95312177
Taskmaster saw it via flight recorder. Probably was the one who spilled.
>>
>>95311996

"What about Vegas?"

"Hey man, what happens in Vegas..."
>>
>>95312230
And just like that, the New Tian plot is resolved. The end.
>>
>>95312133
>>95312161
>Madripoor
>having either elections or military Generals

When did this happen?
>>
>>95312177
Didn't Taskmaster find out? He might have blabbed in a book somewhere.
>>
>>95312261
Couldn't they just create a New New Tian somewhere else that isn't American soil?
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>>95312195
>Kobik wants them to "keep the scars" as a GRIM REMINDER
Of what? "It's your fault this cosmic cube re-wrote reality into this! Never again!" Everyone who died in this event did nothing wrong. The fact that Kobik changed everything back from the shitstorm that she did but didn't undo the deaths that she caused so she can somehow teach everyone a lesson for something they never did is fucking stupid.
>>
>>95312290
It's not like they haven't tried that before, but eventually the random X-men villain of the month destroys it or something.
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>>95312096
Didn't they resurrect her?
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>>95312290
You know, I'm surprised Hank is being so polite to Emma instead of yelling at her and blaming her for whatever he can think of.
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>>95312317
Hank. You had fucking concentration camps for humans. You piece of shit.
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>>95312300
Well the cosmic cube had nothing to do with all the legal hax powers Steve received, though it's weird to punish a bunch people who had nothing to do with those decisions, especially since she actually did restore DC
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>>95312261
You'd think that with all of the powerful mutants that exist they could just create a new continent in the pacific for mutants only.
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>>95311785
> wild ride

more like that dragon roller coaster at the county fair. the hype just didn't hold up after the first couple issues.
>>
>>95312222
Quads confirm, that would be pretty cool.

Wasn't Kingpin once both the top crime boss in Vegas and the head of Hydra at the same time?

>>95312261
And not a single evil mutant does anything about it?
I guess everyone's still too embarrassed about the whole "working with Hydra" thing.
>>
>>95312290
>>95312317
Beast is a bit ugly here.
>>
>>95312317
So Zemo was presumably arrested, but what happened to the rest of the Hydra High Council?
And how come we never found out who the New Kraken was after Spencer set up a mystery about his identity?
>>
>>95312290
What a serious waste of time
>>95312317
And this is dumb too. Emma was out in the open in the tie-ins, having photoshoots and tanning on beaches. Where is this "they'll never know who their Queen was" BS coming from?
>>
>>95312059

That's a lot of words to say "I'm going to use my trial to preach my ideology no matter how much flimsy reaching I need to do to pull it off."
>>
>>95312363
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>>95312365
X-men by Bunn?
>>
>>95312210
Isn't Deadpool's life falling into absolute shambles enough of a consequence?

Nobody seems to give a shit about that, or even consider that he only did what he did because of an evil Captain America, - a person everyone holds in high regard, especially him - tricked him into doing it.
>>
>>95312393
At least Frank admits that joining Hydra was a mistake and is making up for it.
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>>95312363
I like how the artist was so lazy, they just took a photo of one of RDJ's Iron Man suits and threw a photoshop filter over it.
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>>95312393
Is that Punisher?
>>
>>95312414
>>95312393
Backpedal O' clock
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>>95312414
I'm sorry guys, but real life got in the way, I gotta go. Somebody else please finish this, there's not much left.
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>>95312393
>>95312414
>last minute attempt to salvage Frank after Spencer raped him
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>>95312161
BWHAHAHAHAHA GET FUCKED MARLEL
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>>95312450
I don't know how to storytime....
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>>95312448

This is literally the point of the issue. Summer's over gotta get back to the status quo.
>>
He was right it's not getting undone by a cosmic cube, he's just backpedaling it all and nobody will ever mention it again.
What's the difference again?
>>
Got you
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>>95312317
>new tian was the homeland mutants have dreamt of. An inspiring One
DAS RITE humies under the bootheels of their betters
>>
>>
>>95312499
>Writer calls himself out on the shitty ending
>>
>>95311828
Why does Backup Copy Steve need to break in?
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>>95312317
>You know, I'm surprised Hank is being so polite to Emma instead of yelling at her and blaming her for whatever he can think of.

Does Emma look like Scott Summers to you?
>>
>>
>>
>>95312356
>And not a single evil mutant does anything about it?
fighting US army, avengers and sentinels?
no.
those brave mutant villains, like the mutant heroes, only fight against those humans who cant possibly defend themselves
Hydra cap only mistake, not gassing them all
fuck marvel.
fuck retcons
fuck sjw and above all
fuck muties
>>
>>
>>95312261
>sentinels destroyed another mutan nation
typical
>>
>>95312261
yay we defeated the evil facists!
bastards even locked up inhumans because of how they were born.
quick get the sentinels out and buy lots of purple spray paint!
>>
>>
>>95312450
>SHIELD was abolished
>SHIELD is still around

Which is it?

>>95312499
>Without Kobik's interference I would have won

Hydra Cap still can't admit to himself that without Kobik's interference he wouldn't even have existed.

>>95312524
>Stark's company spending millions

I thought Stark was broke now? Did Kobik undo that?
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>>95312524
Captain America: GROUNDED
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Fuck Nick Spencer
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>>95312670
that's pretty much the next arc
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>>95312647
Oh fuck off
>>
BUY LEGACY NEXT MONTH!
ONLY $5.99!
>>
>>95312450
do we have to? like, I'm readying this, and i don't feel the need to read the rest.
its marvel ultimate trash. anyone really need to read it?
its just comic book gore porn, the worst way
>>
>>95312670

Hell, I won't care if it's Captain America: Last Son of Brooklyn, as long as Spencer's misogynist fuckass is off it and away from making Marvel worse.
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this art is so lazy, rather have Land do it
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So is hydra going back to being a ragtag white supremacist group cause there were brown members and whites together about to rape brown girls
>>
Thanks for the storytime.
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>>95312575
huh. Good point.

>>95312647
>The unnecessarily brutal guard is also secretly Hydra
Figures


>>95312676
This should have been great. Spencer's written amazing stuff. I was so full of hope after reading Pleasant Hill. What went wrong? Was it the original premise just too stupid to be saved?
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>>95312596
Why do I get the feeling this page is going to get REALLY /pol/-pular?
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>>95312691
>Captain America: Last Son of Brooklyn

That's such a cool title I'm disappointed it doesn't actually exist.
>>
>>95312684
*Buy Legacy in two weeks!
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>>95312300
It's funny to see how terrible the defenses are for that:

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?101137-Kobik-Were-the-Heroes-Selfish-Not-Using-Her-to-Restore-People
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>>95312647

damn he got raped in the ass
>>
Why is the last issue trying to convince us that hydracap has kinda a point?
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>>95312707
it's an limited series that relies on shaking up the status quo
it has never worked and it never will
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>>95312749
Why has this whole storyline been about trying to convince us that HydraCap (and even the Red Skull) has a point?
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>>95312647
>Keeping HydraCap around

Nick meant for Secret Empire to be Steve and Sam's Emerald Twilight, didn't he?
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>>95312742
Ah, CBR, the home of the easily triggered and the shills!
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>>95312757
I legitimately don't believe that Marvel has the editorial power to make a big event that actually has story and consequences across different books anymore. Pretty much every tie-in was completely useless for this event, or went against things from other tie-ins.
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>>95312790
Probably. But I suppose that he'll be a good villain in Waid's CA run.
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>>95312770
it was like someone inside marvel was trying to ask for help, to be saved from marlel sjw insanity.
but there was no one to save him.
or us.
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>>95312096
>puting mascara when you're going to a funeral and you know you're going to cry
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>>95312749
Because Spencer is a butthurt centrist bureaucrat who still hasn't gotten over how poorly people reacted to his kino twist on social media
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They talked about Black Widow and Punisher, but why not Sam Wilson? I thought this issue would talk about why he would give up the Captain America Mantle? Do you honestly have to read his Falcon book to find out the answer why? Because that's bullshit.
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>>95312499
>As soon I came back
What kind of quality control is this?
>>
>>95312842

I'm no centrist, but diving all the way to the opposite pole isn't helping anything.

There's a broad left and right spread of political opinions sane people can hold, and then there's loonytown off on the extreme fringes.
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>>95312749
The same reason he kept propping up Sam as the one true Cap when we all know he's being demoted to Falcon in Legacy.

Nick Spencer is butthurt.

Hopefully after his shitty Dabbing comic bombs he can go back to Image and never rape Marvel again.
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>>95312961
Yeah, how about we oppose censorship, thought policing, and fundamentalism from both sides?
>>
Anyone who types butthurt is butthurt, because they know how it feels. That does not include me, because I typed it twice and it canceled out the hurt.
>>
>>95312988
He wasn't in the leaked December solicits either, so DabMan is the only story he has for three months
>>
What I don't understand is that none of us would believe for an instant that Capt wouldn't be able to get out of that jail in a heart beat, so why are we supposed to believe it would hold hydra cap?
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>>95312317
Hank's only consistent characterisation is to always be wrong
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>>95313008
>typed less that one minute after the first post in the thread with the word "butthurt"

Did you just sit here waiting for someone to say that so you could make your post?
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>>95312831
>I legitimately don't believe that Marvel has the editorial power to make a big event that actually has story and consequences across different books anymor
That's what happens when you have a Yesman like Axel Alonso who caves into everyone's demands.
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>>95312261
>>95312290
>>95312317
So, how long did New Tian/Secret Empire last for?
>>
So Hydra Cap is just a Cosmic cube copy or what, because I'm still not entirely sure what the hell the deal was with making two Caps with the cube.
>>
>>95312450
We'll at least franks back normal
>>
This event we once again learned the valuable lesson that Marvel citizens continue to be horrified by the constant physical and existential threats against their lives, and will do anything to feel safe in an insanely dangerous universe that wants to exterminate them. But giant purple robots are as far as the bleeding heart hippies will let them.
>>
>>95312707
setting aside the fact that Spencer excels/enjoys writing for villains, and relies on all-according-to-keikaku style thought plots,
the man doesn't really finish a story. Bedlam, for example, is a convoluted anti-hero setup, which is fine, but it ''''ends'''' without resolution.
I don't think he has the stamina to write out a complete idea.
>>
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>>95312882
That line didn't really bother me. I don't doubt these people would exist in the marvel verse. The whoel thing was silly and stupid but not anything that made me roll my eyes and groan

but this particular line of dialogue...yeesh
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>>95312059
you know it seems kinda stupid for cap to be wearing a giant A on his hoodie
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>>95313147
I dunno, I'd be terrified of the giant purple genocide robots too.
>>
>>95312317

Emma is best girl.

I want a new X-Men book with Emma + New Fuckbuddy and Hank + Brand as leaders.
>>
>>95313101
>So Hydra Cap is just a Cosmic cube copy
close enough, Kobik made a universe where Steve was HYDRA. HYDRACap was then brought into 616 during Pleasent Hill/Standoff.
>>
>>95313101
>So Hydra Cap is just a Cosmic cube copy or what
Stevil is, oddly, still "real" Cap who did everything in this world. Steve is a save file that was booted up from a previous game.
>>
>>95312196
It's been reveled that the story arc for Iceman will be him looking back at better times.
>>
>>95311785
>wild ride
>"Falcon, you're the cap now"
>"oh noes, Steve is hydra"
>"Real cap is back to fight hydraSteve"
>"Falcon, you're the cap now"

More like Mild Ride
>>
>>95312522

it was a mistake to make Xorn brainwashed by Emma.
They should have been collaborators. New Tian wasnt an evil idea or place, and Xorn works well as a Chinese-Emperor-Heavenly-Leader style figure
>>
>>95311975
>>95312647
This seems an appropriate enough time for this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLoytewvn0g
See ya round Big Boss Cap.
>>
>>95313193
>implying that's not how SJWs actually talk
>>
>>95311785
Most of this issue felt pointless and could have been shortened to just a few pages.

Why did we need this extra issue?
>>
>>95313167
Morning Glories has been 50 issues of "What Happens Next!" with little-to-no resolution to things
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>>95313288
>Why did we need this extra issue?
To explain why America is fucked because they were stupid enough to put fascist bigots in power and how all the racists are now empowered to show their faces.
>>
>>95312365

but people thought Xorn was the king, they didnt know she controlled him. For newtianners Emma was a "secretary of education" tier person.
>>
>>95312618
>it doesn't matter what face you wear
Spencer setting up Stevil to be the new Red Skull, the red panels even spell it out.
>>
>>95312317
>"A glimpse of what we could HAVE."
yes where the mutants treat the minority humans like shit truly the paradise Professor X would have wanted
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>>95313263
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>>95312317
>Mutant Zimbabwe is supposed to be some sort of inspiring utopia

Charles didn't die for this
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>>95313356
>Red Skull used to wear Steve's face
>Now evil Steve will wear Red Skull's face

Pottery
>>
http://www.cbr.com/why-black-widow-dead-after-secret-empire/
>In the first half of an extensive two-part interview with CBR, Secret Empire writer Nick Spencer explained what was behind Kobik’s decision. As it turns out, there’s a solid reason for the sentient Cosmic Cube’s actions (or lack thereof), from an editorial standpoint, as well as her in-story motivation.

>“We didn’t want the event to have no longterm consequences or repercussions,” Spencer told CBR of the editorial decision not to hand wave a resurrection in the finale. “We wanted to make sure that at the end of this somebody didn’t just shake a Cosmic Cube and everything is better.”

>When it came to in-story reasoning, Spencer explained that “Kobik’s thinking in this situation is that while the Cosmic Cube was used to turn Steve into a Hydra agent, it wasn’t used to convince anyone to go along with any of the many things that became the heroes and the United States of the Marvel Universe’s undoing. People made their own decisions… A lot of the folks on the ground in the Marvel Universe decided to really embrace an ideology that Steve was suddenly introducing into the public conversation. And a lot of heroes, after being so divided and broken in Civil War II, decided that instead of fixing those problems and healing those wounds, they would simply delegate everything to Steve.

>“There’s a responsibility to be shared here,” Spencer continued. “It wasn’t as simple as, “A Cube made things bad.” Steve did one thing, and then a lot of others did the rest. So, to me, it was important that there were still some lingering consequences. And how we deal with those in the stories that spring out of this is a big part of what’s ahead in Marvel Legacy.”

Full interview here: http://www.cbr.com/interview-nick-spencer-secret-empire-aftermath/
>>
>>95313284
>95313284
>Implying anyone talks like that
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>>95313255
Thing is that Stevil is that too. Remember that pre-Secret Wars Cap was killed at the end of Time Runs Out. The Cap that became Stevil is the one that Reed created.
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>>95311932
hey wait a second
SPIDER-MAN WASN'T EVEN IN THIS THING
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>>95312024
Hey, it's the cool Hydra Cap that became retarded while the event lasted
>>
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>during this entire event not a single person sympathized with stinky inhumans
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>>95313408

but it wasnt a failed state with widespread poverty and hyperinflation

it was a first world country in which flatscans get a bad treatment from the police, and people who want to start a war with the powerful neighbour known as Hydra-America, get brainwashed for national security.

it wasnt worse than World War 2 USA with Jim Crow laws in many states and internment camps for the Japanese.
>>
>>95312261
>>95312290
>>95312317
So can we finally cement Hank as the biggest fucking hypocrite of the Marvel Universe?
>>
>>95313619
Neither was AI Tony or Old Man Logan.or Sam or Ant Man or Carol.or Kobik or the McAllisters. Not sure if rewrites or if the recap person just dgaf.
>>
>>95312317
So what's the in story reason for Hank not living in Central Park with Kitty and her lot?
>>
>>95312647
HydraCap staying around is probably the one good thing to come out of this, he was a really great villain before secret empire began

>>95312618
>Your people are more in line with my ideals than yours and would be proud to seize power and call themselves hydra

>Your people are weak, powerhungry and pathetic and they would throw away their morals and flock to whoever offers them security

Lmao
>>
>>95313839
This is a recap page that spelled "Michigan" and "Mighichan" at the very beginning of the event. The spelling editors dgaf from the very start.
>>
>>95313775
He already was. This is just a reminder that nothings changed.
>>
>>95313882
*as
My proofing is just as good as Marvel's
>>
>>95312932
I bet you my bottom dollar almost all the legacy title will be storytimed here. It doesn't matter. I also don't think Spencer planned on Sam being demoted.
>>
>>95312955
Edited by the army of evil*
>>
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>>95311932
>>95313619
>>95313839
Odd... Considering the CBR preview had a more accurate cast page
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>>95313869
>he was a really great villain before secret empire began
Yeah dude just became a joke afterwards.
>>
>>95311831
I wouldn't be surprised if hydracap is written out by the end of this.
>>
So who's the Clone? Steve or Stevevil?

Did Korbik erase original steve and replace him with a new one or did she just change good steve into evil steve, then make a clone of good steve?
>>
>>95313979
>Bobbi, OML, and Fury Jr.
Just how many rewrites did this go through?
>>
>>95311932
>>95313979
They accidentally published the recap page from issue 10 instead of the actual recap page for this issue.
>>
>>95313086
i honestly think hydra america only lasted for a month at most, i'm only basing this off of spider-mans comic he left to start a war in a forine country and that couldn't have taken more than a few days to get there and "liberate" it and then a couple more days to fight oct in china and then finally coming back home to fight in one fight and get his ass kicked
>>
>>95314080
Oh wait I forgot that Fury did show up after Frank so that only just leaves two characters who don't actually show up in the book.
>>
>>95314031
Steve is the clone, Stevil is Steve's old body rejuvenated with Stevil's mind
>>
>>95312215
AKA a bunch of c-listers Marvel doesn't care about and faceless people.

PAD loves Rick and Marlo is in Scarlet Spider with some pretty OP powers so HE might come back.

Jack Flag doesn't have the same luxury, unless Duggan remembers his cosmic destiny and decides to do something about it.
>>
>>95312522
>Generic human officers arresting generic humans for being beat up by alien-like muties
FUCK DA POLICE
>>
>>95314172
For a second I thought they were implying that Stevevil was just a brainwashed good cap, and swept this all under the rug by giving them a clone cap exactly like the old one.
>>
>>95314145
They're in the funeral scene. Geez, man, pay attention.
>>
>>95314092

I dont know where but somewhere I read New Tian lasted only 6 weeks
>>
>>95312024
Just take him out back and shoot him, everyone will forget sooner or latter
>>
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>>95314223
They could but that means no based Whitehall and Elisa is a an even bigger plothole. So fuck that
>>
>>95312596
WHO have oppressed them and was fought against? What did Hydra change, aside from creating a dictatorship?
>>
>>95312524
>Stark spending millions to restore Cap's rep
Gay
>>
>>95312290
Cyclops creates Utopia ( pacific negotiation with US government) and tries to maintain it and even force to war over it so Best think he is a fascist and everything is wrong within the mutant society

Emma creates Tian, negotiates with a real fascist leader that has recently taken over America, use another mutan (xorn) as a puppet but she should be praised and even mentioned on history books...also Hank (the motherfucking pacifist) contemplates the idea to make war against America to maintain Tian still does not do it because he is a coward to afraid to go against the Avengers.

There is a worst character than Beast right now?
>>
So what's up with the end of IvX where Emma had that black spike cyclops outfit? Did anything come of it?
>>
>>95313378
Isn't that story about her going to an alternate universe?
>>
>>95311879
>skinnyfat dadbod

are they doing this on purpose?
>>
>>95312691
>Captain America: Last Son of Brooklyn
He's from the Lower East Side in the comics, not from Brooklyn.

That title sounds cool though.
>>
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>>95314434
Ugh I'm so tired of you fucking losers worshipping mutant hitler
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>>95314467
Swiftly ignored by everyone who has used her since (Spencer, Bunn, Zub)
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>>95314018
Is Zemo going to save his husbando?
>>
>>95312424
No thats Moon Girl..
>>
>>95314434
see, cyclops is a guy and emma is a gal and it's an age old rule of comics and fiction in general that women are allowed to do stuff men aren't
>>
>>95312161
Yup. Not even a month later and Widow is already confirmed alive.

She'll have silver hair just like the movies when she appears again. Watch.
>>
>>95314690
Except fot the Scarlet Witch. She gets shat on constantly even though men who don't have the excuse of being possessed have done worse.
>>
>>95312626
>Hydra Cap still can't admit to himself that without Kobik's interference he wouldn't even have existed.

Because he believes he's the original.
>>
Ducking hell, this was particularly dumb event, and not even in the entertaining sort of way. At least it's finally over.
>>
>>95314746
who was she possessed by when she went
>no more mutants?
>>
>>95312363
I know, right? What was up with the Kraken?
>>
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>>95312746
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>>95314467
She has come to her fasion senses
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>>95314848
Doom.

You'd think people would be more upset at Doom with that, actually, but NOOOOO, LET'S BLAME IT ALL IN THE MUTIE.
>>
>>95314736
Nah man, Hawkeye and Bucky are tracking her down in the miniseries that got leaked, and they will find several women with different hair colors that look like her. The women will fight each other, and at the end Nat will emerge from a Russian-birthing-chamber and be victorious.
>>
>>95314848
The Life Force, and she was manipulated by Doctor Doom.
>>
>>95311988
Alt-Right here. I don't think he's much of a strawman. Obviously he's meant to be a villain, but I could relate to Hydra Cap as a character. He makes a good parallel in this issue to how many in the Alt-Right feel about America. It's like watching Man in the High Castle. I find it enjoyable, but I relate to the "villains" more. Someday we'll set things right...
>>
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>>95312524
>Even though we said it wasn't Cap, everyone is going to think it was and we tarnished his legacy
This is really meta
>>
>>95315211
>Alt-Right here

Stopped reading there.
>>
>>95315266
Might as well not read the comic itself then.
>>
>>95312618
>Doesn't matter what face
>I've been fighting you my whole life

New Red Skull confirmed?
>>
>>95312219
And the millions of faceless men, women and children of every race, religion and nationality that had the misfortune to be in Vegas that day. But who gives a shit about them
>>
>>95312749
It's showing that even incredibly wrong people are convinced they have a point
>>
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>>95314433
It's not gay to spend millions on restoring your friend's reputation, or spending millions on buying their ID card when they die, or to have an entire tribute room based on them.
>>
>>95315384
Can we assume that Kaine and Ben are dead too, and that no one has told PAD yet?
>>
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>>95314434

you should just read it as Hank trying to get into her vagoo, and it all makes sense. Now that Scott is dead he can fuck Emma and they can have sophisticated conversations about wine, books and coffee, and beastly sex.
They had great chemistry in Morrison's run
>>
>>95312363
>>95314852
Yeah I'm salty about the Kraken thing, especially since they hinted at him being family and an important person to Stevil (but he wasn't Whitehall).
>>
>>95312133
>Cucky
>>
>>95312329
Y'know if RightClops were still alive he'd kick hydra's collective assess out of America then win a mutant homeland as a reward
>>
>>95315026
That retcon never made sense, as Doom was in Hell during that period. Besides, it was fairly obvious he just took the blame to protect her. The guy was going to marry her. I don't buy his ''twas all to gain powah" speech. He has a soft side.
>>
I really liked the conversation between cap and hydracap. It reminded me a lot of the movie 'look who's back' which is about hitler in the modern day and accurately portrays the collectivist ideology that a lot of people (even spencer unknowingly) fall prey to which cap vehemently stands against. It also still shows that hydra cap is actually a hero. He just has no respect for individuals and is concerned about the collective.

The B-plots were trash though especially in context.

That mutie ethnostate being viewed as anything but pure cancer is frustrating.
>>
>>95315211
Your politics are horrific but at least you're honest.
>>
>>95312684
Fucking No.
>>
>>95312575
a-are the last two panels about Marvel Legacy?
shame about this event, honestly, it could have been the GOAT Marvel event
the setup was very good, and I liked the plot and some of the dialogue, but Spencer's monologues bored me to death Marvel chickened out and dropped the ball, the tie-ins were so shittily coordinated that no one knew what was the exact status of New Tian and don't even get me started on all the fill-in artists and rushed art
shame on Marvel all around
>>
>>95312596
this is good propaganda for fascism
>>
>>95316016
It's also good propaganda against fascism and collectivism in general. Because we should know by know that the inevitable result of this is deathsquads marching the streets
>>
>>95312626
>Hydra Cap still can't admit to himself that without Kobik's interference he wouldn't even have existed.

Does he even know this is the case?
>>
>>95316114
I'm pretty sure that Skull told him that, but he doesn't care because "Frank Miller Quote"
>>
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>>95316174
oh yeah
>>
>>95315929
I'm mixed race too. Things aren't that simple buddy.
>>
>>95312343
I loved that awful ride as a kid, I'm happy to hear it wasn't just at my county fair.
>>
>>95316265
I know they aren't simple, we probably have a lot in common politically. But the solution is defending individual rights, because appealing to the collective above all else leads to atrocities.

Additionally the most extreme of the alt right are useful idiots for the establishment just like antifa are.
>>
>>95314031
Steve was reality warped and replaced by Stevil and good Steve I think is just basically Steve pre reality warping fuckery whine Korbik basically had as a memory save inside her the whole time and Marvel citizens are assholes
>>
>>95312024
Rightclops and Hydrasteve crossover now written by BENDIS!
>>
>>95311879
>been in secret black site tortureprison for weeks
>still hasn't washed off his hydra chest paint

damn, Hydra Cap is true to the cause
>>
>>95313719
>it wasnt worse than World War 2 USA with Jim Crow laws in many states and internment camps for the Japanese.
That doesn't make it better though, 1940's America was a shithole
>>
>>95316520
It's not a tattoo?
>>
>>95311988
The fact that you see someone who politically doesn't have a single trait in common with the alt-right as an alt-right strawman simply because they're the villain says a lot more about you than it does the writer.
>>
>>95312647
So how many evil versions of "good guys" do we got running around?

HydraCap
Dark Beast
teen Jean Grey
>>
>>95312749
the whole 'argument' of this arc is that America's national spirit, as represented by Cap, has fucked-up aspects that led to the rise of Trump, as represented by HydraCap. even though in this story HydraCap's rise was actually due to capes messing around with a magical doodad
>>
>>95315630
Ain't the first time they've been dead, won't be the last
>>
>>95316745
Ben "Inexplicably Bad Now" Reilly
>>
>>95316398

>Individual rights

I was a Libertarian once. So were many of us. Chris Cantwell still considers himself one.

But this is a discussion for /pol/.
>>
>>95311785
This is the last Marvel comic i will ever read. I'm not even going to bother reading any more Storytimes featuring Marvel comics.

Now there are three Captain Americas, and two Steve Rogers.

I thought it was bad when the X-Men were reusing multiple versions of the same character.
>>
>>95312317
>bane posting in print works
>>
>>95316745
The Maker a.k.a. Evil Ultimate Reed Richards
Ben Reilly
"Dark" Gwenpool
616 Miles Morales

It honestly feels like Marvel forgot how to make compelling original villains so they just heelturn their heroes and call it a day
>>
>>95313224
I'm on board for this.
>>
>>95316745
Bendis killed Dark Beast in one of the dumbest possible ways.
>>95317003
PAD put a bandaid on that in the latest issue. The constant resurrections damaged Ben Reilly's soul, and it can heal, but it'll take time. He also can't die and be brought back again in his current state, or he'll go evil permanently.
>>
>>95313224
>new fuckbuddy
the second emma gets over scott, she becomes shit.
In fact, I'm convinced marvel will hook her up with someone just to spite cyclopsfags. And they'll have her do something tacky too, like offhand mentioning her new stallion is better than cyke.
>>
The point is, that not matter what he says, Cap Hydra did it all only for HYDRA.
If he had called it something like ``The Justice Party´´ he could ad fool people time enough to make things work.
And like 100 years in the future, when everyone who would care is dead, reveal thet it was HYDRA all along.
But Hydra is more important that whatever cause he defenses, of course.
>>
>>95317074
Not even a libertarian. I just recognize that when you sacrifice the individual shit goes bad fast.
>>
>>95312575
>i offered them power and they took it
>all that was needed was mass brainwashing, mind control, lies, demonic possession, and an evil computer virus
>and don't try to tell me about how people banded together and there was a resistance fighting against overwhelming odds and still managed to come together and thwarted my plans
>nananana i can't hear you
>>
...so what happened to Kobik and Quasar?
>>
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>>95318172
Quasar blew up/disappeared after killing the space shield in Mighty Captain Marvel, and hasn't been mentioned in the main SE book

>>95317488
It's like they heard that people hate hero vs. hero stories, so they just made some heroes into villains to compensate
>>
>>95312450
YOU FUCKING SHIT

FINISH IT !!!!!!
>>
>>95318300
Are you retarded? Scroll down.
>>
>>95312196
The Champions are having a wake for Natasha in this.
>>
>>95318346
fuck off bitch
>>
>>95317074
Why are you not a libertarian any more? I hate SJWs because of how authoritarian they are, I'm not going to turn authoritarian in response.
>>
>>95317553
>Bendis killed Dark Beast in one of the dumbest possible ways.

How?

>>95315630
It would be amazing if that's how the series ends.

Which also leads to Ben getting resurrected again fully insane, as was warned in today's issue...
>>
>>95317488
Ben isn't evil anymore
>>
>>95319508
He experimented on himself so many times that something went wrong and he looked unrecognizable and needed to stay in a suit at all times, otherwise the air would kill him. Cyclops ruptured the suit before he could explain this.
>>
>>95317597

what about the opposite?
What if she fucks a C or D list character, and she always reminds him how much better Scott was?
"sorry darling, I am not going to stop wearing high heel shoes for you, it's not my fault you are 3 inches shorter than Scott, besides, you should want me to look as fantastic as possible, now be a dear and paint my toenails"
>>
Can some one just point me to the win 'o page. plase. I'm begging.
>>
>>95319741
The last thread when it hit the bump limit https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/95301751/#95301751
>>
>>95319741
>>95301751
>>
>>95319701
I wouldn't want Emma to humiliate a poor schmuck, just to amuse herself , then breaking him and moving on, that'd be too evil. unless the schmuck was a chick. Fuck yuri, breaking a lesbos heart would be fun

Even better. Have scott return while they're still dating then have emma rush to his side while the lesbo watches heartbroken with an obvious
>what we had wasn't real darling, get over yourself
from emma.
>>
>>95319803
Thank you. I know that doesn't mean shit, but you stopped me from killing someone
>>
>spencer claims that Natasha is dead
>a month later Aftermath shows her killing a Hydra loyalist from the shadow with a sniper rifle

JUST FUCKING...
>>
>>95319833

Shaw or Banshee are the most obvious replacements (Shaw isnt the person he used to be since Emma erased all his memories like around 2011, and Banshee is alive, but in Limbo, and last time he was seen he was a horseman of Apocalypse)

Havok also makes sense in a "second best" way
>>
>>95319407
Because Libertarianism doesn't work when the wolves are at the door. The idea is simply that Libertarian policies can best be entertained in homogeneous societies. Libertarian author Hans Herman Hoppe elaborates on this idea in his work Democracy: The God that Failed.

Libertarianism is kind of a "live and let live" philosophy. But things have gotten so bad in society over the past half decade in particular that enough of us have decided to fight. To be more active. Twenty years ago we still had Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Now people are pissed about Trump banning trans from the military. I'm only 25, but still old enough to remember when things weren't so crazy.

And as a mixed race person, I know what it's like to be an individual very well. I'm much more in favor of cohesive societies,games, cultures, etc. That's what nationalism means to me. As a mixed race person, I know how lonely multiculturalism really is. Ironically, nationalism gave me a community and sense of purpose.

But this is getting too off topic. I'm just saying, Hydra Cap isn't too bad a representation of what we stand for. And as he says in this issue, there are a lot more of us than people might think.
>>
>>95320588
Games=families

Typing on a phone here
>>
>>95319632
>Cyclops ruptured the suit before he could explain this.

Damn, Rightclops just kills left and right.
>>
>>95319839
/co/ saves lives.

We'll never get credit, the media only cares when you do kill someone.

Hope everything becomes OK in your life, Anon.
>>
>>95316082
Well look at the Philippines. Duterte isn't universally praised, but he's still pretty popular. I have a friend from the Netherlands who has a Filipina wife, lived in the Philippines for some time, and he supports Duterte too.
>>
>>95311828

Because it's off American soil? Because Ryker's Island is a privately owned?
>>
>>95316082
>>95321486
this guy is right, as in, I live in a third world country with little crime. A neighbour (also third world) country has very high crime. Some people in my country wish we had death squads like that country to "clean the streets" and get rid of our criminals, even if they are a minor problem.

people like Duterte being truly popular isnt rare. He is a more savage version of the idea people all over the world had of Rudolph Giuliani and his zero tolerance.
>>
>>95313224
The obly fuckbuddy Emma needs is Scott and that man is dead or a beta teen version of himself.
>>
>>95312261
What happened to Magik's sword? Looks like a diving rod or a wishbone.
>>
>>95312329
Sounds like that would lead to a cool alliance arc between Magneto and Charles. Punting evil Hank into space.
>>
>>95321605
The funny thing is, Non-Whites are often more red pilled than Whites.

I'm half Asian, so all the anti-White stuff the media and schools teach never worked on me.
>>
What happened to Taskmaster & Black Ant?

Did hey get the hero's welcome they deserved?
>>
>>95316398

When everyone else is appealing to their collective the one guy aiming for individualism is the sucker who will be the first to lose
>>
>>95314031
They both are clones. The real Steve Rodgers died many years ago.
>>
>>95315211
>Man in the High Castle
Nick Spencer mentioned in early interviews that he based it on that. Mission accomplished then.
>>
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>>95316745
>teen Jean Grey
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>>95320588
Like, I kind of agree with you. Things have gotten bad, but what has gotten bad? I don't care about having transsexuals in the military, I have a friend who's a Marine officer who's trans. What I care about is that these assholes on the left are doing exactly what made me hate the right-wing in the first place: Telling us what to do, what to think, what we can and can not do.

I don't feel like the answer is another group of people who tell me what to do, especially when, just like you, a whole bunch of them don't like me solely because I'm "white ethnic" instead of pure "white".

I need to read Hoppe, tho. Maybe that'll change how I think a bit.

But in general, I think like Captain America does. Live and Let live. Let people do what the fuck they want, as long as they don't intrude on other people's freedoms.

If this thread is still up later when I'm still sober, I'll write more. For some odd reason, /co/ has become a better, saner place to talk politics than /pol/ ever was.

Pic unrelated.
>>
>>95321864
Taskmaster showed up in Secret Warriors.
>>
>>95316745
>>95317488
I want book with this line up.
>>
>>95312059

>"It won't matter. We'll find a way to hold you accountable."

I don't feel like this is what Cap should stand for.
>>
>>95322280

Well heck, I worked at Disney World and hung out with a bunch of gays and women. I just don't like Leftist agendas pushed on society by the media and universities. It's not the nineties anymore where we had to worry about "Conservative Christians" trying to ban heavy metal and anime for promoting witchcraft. The most persecuted people in America now as far as free speech are actually the far-right. The Daily Stormer, which got essentially banned from the internet over the past month. It's unprecedented, but like Hydra Cap says, we're not fighting to take the country over, but to take it back.
>>
>>95313869

>HydraCap staying around is probably the one good thing to come out of this, he was a really great villain before secret empire began

>Implying he even was a villain before SE began.
>>
>>95322393

>The real Cap wouldn't hold someone accountable for razing an entire city despite "laws"
>The real Cap wouldn't hold someone accountable for trapping an entire city of innocent people in the Darkforce
>The real Cap wouldn't hold someone accountable for conquering mutants and the invasion of other nations

Do you read comics? Ever?
>>
It's kind of bullshit that Punisher didn't continue supporting Hydra, or at least Stevil's version. It just feels more in character for him, and it would be interesting to see him against regular Steve in the aftermath. But that would mean events actually having repercussions, and we all know that can't happen...
>>
>>95322624

When the far-right "free speech" means "I want to kill or deport your neighbors," it's not persecution, it's logic. I don't need to be tolerant of your intolerance. It doesn't work that way.

And I'm a registered Republican.
>>
>>95316745
>>95317003
>>95317488
Riri/Ironheart is definitely heading in a villainous direction.

So is young Beast.
>>
>>95312059
>We'll find a way to make you accountable

That doesn't sound American
>>
>>95322624
I agree with almost all of it except the end.

I want to take the country back, I want to get rid of the SJW thought police.

I don't want to replace it with fascism. I don't want to trade one set of thought police for another.

Why do you? You hate that these idiots are trying to tear down free speech, but why join another bunch of idiots who want to control what you think, too?
>>
>>95322881

Can you explain to me why you think "free speech" means anything more than you not being put in jail for what you say? It doesn't mean you get a security team to protect you when you're an asshole.
>>
>>95312596
You know what the saddest thing about this is?
It's reducing real problems to a cartoonish level.
Yes, Evil Cap is evil. He did some bad things
But you know what? Feeling proud of who you are and wanting to be a part of something big of is NOTHING to be ashamed of.
The average male American has nothing to feel proud of now. Every part of the news and social media is telling him he is scum for his skin color and his gender.
This is the fucking majority of male Americans.
How is this right?

These men are forced to find identity and pride in fringe elements. Dangerous elements. UnAmerican elements.
Why?
Because they left nothing for them.

There will be a reckoning for this. You take away a person's pride in who they are, and they'll get mad and force one.
In 20 years, you look back and ask where did this all come from.
You'll know
>>
>>95312024

Nick Spencer really went out of his way to try to sanitize Hydra to make them "Not Nazis", but kept everyone that is a Nazi.

Sin? Red Skull's daughter is a Nazi
Crossbones? Neo-Nazi
Armin Zola? Nazi Biochemist, guy even cloned Hitler... 3 times!
Faust? He founded National Force, a neo-nazi/white supremacist group.
Zemo had fucking swastikas engraved on the hilt of his swords in the fucking Secret Empire comics.
Gorgo? Ties with the Von Strucker family.

For all the talk that Hydra is "Not Nazis", they were perfectly ok with keeping a bunch of nazis, and even collaborating with them during WW2 and afterwards.

Just because you kill Red Skull does not mean Hydra stops being Nazi.
>>
>>95322807
Then the US government should look into every instance of Anti-Fa or BLM radicals saying "Kill Whitey." For equality's sake that is.
>>
>>95322881
Collective action can only be opposed by collective action. Individualism will just lead to the other side running over. But Andrew Anglin came out in total favor of the First Amendment and Richard Spencer wrote a manifesto praising the Second Amendment. I know conservatives and liberals alike look at the Nazis and talk about speech persecution or taking guns away, but that's not what the most prominent Alt-Right members seem to be about.
>>
>>95322928
Where the fuck did that come from? What does that have to do with my post? But since you asked, I'll answer.

The First Amendment protects you from the government censoring you.

"Freedom of Speech" is a concept, a natural right. It doesn't get enforced by the government.

But punching someone because you don't like what they say? Be they a Nazi or a moderate or an SJW or whatever? That's assault, and anyone who does that damn well better get locked up. The "security team" that protects you are the cops, who when they do their jobs are supposed to keep assholes from punching you because they think you're the asshole.

This is a mentality I oppose, a mentality I hate, both when it comes from the far-right or from the far-left.

>>95323023
I don't think most "alt-righters" on 4chan would want a totalitarian government, but that's what we'd get if somehow people like Anglin or Richard Spencer took over. And that's no better than having SJW types take over.

>Collective action can only be opposed by collective action. Individualism will just lead to the other side running over.

We can unite against those who would censor and control us without having to impose a regime of censorship and control over everybody.

Censor the censors. No one else.
>>
>>95322964
Hydra is fascist, but not always Nazis.

But being a bunch of fascists, they welcome Nazi types in as fellow fascists.

No one remembers when non-fascists like the Kingpin ran it. They remember the Red Skull and what he stood for.
>>
>>95322928
Right, this is a nationalism versus libertarianism argument. The idea is net neutrality and the idea that the internet is a commons. I love 4chan because, while it is moderated, people can speak their minds very freely here. It's no surprise it's where the Alt-Right has a lot of its roots. Given free reign to air their opinions, have open discussions, right-wing ideas become even more popular. But the internet is controlled by a small number of companies that can ban content, and we can say that it's a company's right, but to us that's like saying the telephone company can cancel service because they don't like the content of your conversations. Whose freedom matters more? The corporations or the people?
>>
>>95323117

Yeah, but Spencer cannot distance Hydras from Nazis, no matter how hard he tries. Again, a bunch of people with Nazi/Neo-Nazi ties are part of his High Council.

If you sleep with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas.
>>
>>95312522
Overload: Replace any instances of 'mutant' with 'protected minorities'.
>They are telling you of your future.
>>
>>95323160
Hydra is fascist. Nazis are fascists.

The big difference is that non-Nazi Hydra isn't racist. A slight improvement. Now you have a diverse group of thugs stomping on your head with their jackboots, instead of just Aryans doing it.

Either way, they're still stomping on you.
>>
>>95323144
>But the internet is controlled by a small number of companies that can ban content,
Wrong.
The internet is controlled by no one.
ACCESS is controlled by a few
Never mistake the two.
>>
>>95322959

I'm trying to have a real conversation here, so hopefully we can both remain civil... but assuming we're both white men, when is the last time you were REALLY given shit for being a white guy? I've lived 30 consecutive years on this earth and I have had very few examples of people mad at me for being a straight white male. It seems like a lot of people are mad about a problem that doesn't exist.

Why is it that we should feel "proud?" Why is it that we should expect the government to give us back our old jobs instead of fighting to be exceptional and learn new skills? I feel like my fellow white guy is refusing to adapt to the rest of the world, and just wants to point a finger.

>>95322967
There's less "kill whitey" shit than there is "please stop considering people different than you the enemy" shit.
>>
>>95323160
>>95323195
Can someone define "fascist" for me that doesn't involve any Nazi parallels?
>>
>>95321486

He's a strong man populist, once it's obvious that his methods don't work (which they really aren't crime hasn't really gone down at all) He'll fall apart.
>>
>>95323224

Their mostly man children mad about stuff random teenagers on tumblr say, it's rather pathetic.

That and Girls trying to get into their video games.
>>
>>95323090

Well look, Andrew Anglin has a personal blog where he makes non-political posts so the site won't get banned. He's mainly posted about his thoughts on free speech and censorship. You can take it from the man himself:

andrewanglinblog. wordpress

He's even admitted, his Daily Stormer persona is a kind if publicity stunt. He wants to get his ideas out there by acting wild and provocative. Otherwise everyone would just ignore them.
>>
>>95323195

Not so sure about that. Cap was perfectly fine with the Americops and the white guy spouting racist shit on tv -- sure it happened in the CASW and CASR comics rather than Secret Empire itself, but hard to separate HydraCap from Hydra, since HydraCap is supposed to be Hydra's messiah.

So yeah, Stevil is perfectly fine working with a bunch of racist people...
>>
>>95323225

Nazism is a fascist ideology so that's pretty much impossible. But basically it's a hard authoritarian nationalist system that places "the nation" above all else, claims that a strong "leader" is needed to lead said nation, one above all else. tends to eer toward a sort of state capitalist but mixed economy, but really the economics of fascism are a lot more varied than the general governing philosphy.
>>
>>95323210

But in reality that's just sematics. It's not like someone can just start their own Google, same as they can't start their own country. That's like saying laws are just paper. There are real world effects to all of it.
>>
>>95323224
You have something to feel proud of right? Maybe a good job, a career, a wife? Something?
The people who fall into the so called "alt-right" are people who don't have that.
They don't have anything in their own personal lives to feel proud of, and everything they hear on the outside is "Your are shit, you are shit, you are shit"
The "alt-right" is the only part of their lives who say, it's ok, you are worth something.

You may not realize how important that is. Having someone else say "You are important" is a Siren's call. No one can resit it.

The alt-right exists for the same reason why BLM exists or why muslim terrorists exist or why radical feminism is a thing.
You have people failing their lives, for whatever reason. All they want to feel is like they're real and worth something. And they can't. So they listen to someone who says they are, and that's often a radical source.

The big difference between the examples I gave and the "real" problem, that is disenfranchised white males, is that white males are the largest demographic now. STILL
And the media has created an environment where they feel like they are useless.
You know how dangerous that is?
The most dangerous thing in the world is a young man without purpose. Every single war has been caused by an overabundance of men without reason in their lives.
And now the media is creating a false dynamic. Normally you need an invasion or something equivalent to get so many similar men upset.

This won't end well.
>>
>>95323334
Are left wing Stalinists the same as right-wing Fascists?
>>
>>95323090

It came from the "SJW thought police" point. Maybe I took it too far and assumed the worst. But as I've said in another post, if you're threatening my neighbor with violence and saying they should be killed or ejected from the country solely on the basis of their skin color, I don't see physical violence as bad, since that person is already threatening physical violence toward someone I care about.

It's like if I'm in a bar and someone keeps repeating they're gonna hit me in the face and rape my girlfriend - I'm not going to wait for you to do it before I make sure it doesn't occur.

>>95323144

Yep, an open forum leaves us open to all ideas.

But the "open forum" of the uneducated should not count. And I don't mean that by college vs. tradesman, I mean it by having a clear understanding of the issues. If you can't identify that Obamacare and the ACA are the same thing, you don't deserve to have an opinion. Your opinion doesn't matter at that point.

All I want is for people to pay attention and critically think.
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>>95320588
>As a mixed race person, I know how lonely multiculturalism really is.
That's not how you spell " self-hating nigger", anon.
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>>95323343
>This has never happened in my life before. And it's coming from my side, the side I thought was better than this bullshit.
Do you understand why so many men are turning to the "alt-right"?
It's not fascism or Donald Trump or racism or anything.
It's about feeling like you belong.
And it's harder and harder now for a man to feel like he belongs in liberal society
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>>95312647

"Why don't you just rape the Nazi you Steve"
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>>95323395

Why? Really if women and minorities getting into more industries and so much destroys the sense of belonging your really the specialist snowflake.
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>>95323224

I should just make it clear, I was the first one to really bring up politics here by saying I'm an Alt-Right member, but now it seems like there are a number of people in the conversation. Anonymous posting has its pros and cons.

But like, I said, I'm the original "Alt-Right" poster, I'm not the one you asked to be civil, but I'm mixed race and I agree with him. Even as a minority myself, the worst racism I've seen has been against Whites. They call guys like me Uncle Toms (or Changs in my case).
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>>95323395

Maybe people wouldn't hate on them "finding their identity" so much if that didn't seem to come along with running around with Nazi and Confederate symbols and the like...
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>>95323452
You're making a strawman out of a real issue.
It's not about women and minorities joining the issue

If it were about other people joining white men arm in arm as equals, it would be welcomed.
But that's not how it is. You know it isn't like that.
It's about how white men are made out to be devils.
For ever woman or minority who has a job, there are thousands of twitterers who say "YESSS, a disgusting patriarch has been dethroned!!!"
The left has made it a "You vs us" scenario.
Not a "We're all working together" one.
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>>95323339

I'll agree that this won't end well. I have things to be proud about, but many of them come from the fact that I adapted and survived in a very bad environment. I graduated college in 2008, when finding a job was impossible, and suffered through debt and homelessness and hunger... but I found a way to fight my way into tech, where money is.

The Alt-Right, or Donald Trump, or whoever you'd like to blame as the collective, is promising that our country will recover on the back of industries that are going to be increasingly obsolete. Instead of moving forward and providing training and development for our country, we're promising coal mines are coming back.

Long story short, I think we should be focusing on educating and developing an amazing and advancing workforce.
>>
>>95323475
The reason why Nazi and Confederate symbols are so popular is because they're literally the only symbols that don't call you disgusting for being what you are.
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>>95323339

Most of them are disenfranchised over ether their own stubborness or personal failures.. or because we keep on ignoring the creeping onflow of automization which is going to disenfranchise and displace EVERYONE.

Also White Women are the largest demographic in the US.
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>>95323490

I disagree with the whole notion of Hydra not being Racist
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>>95323490
>Comic cons, SF cons, they used to be a safe space, now they're just as scary. Say the wrong thing and you're suddenly off the panels, out of the cool kids club, and isolated. Then you go to room parties, and all the drunk people are grumbling, wondering what the fuck happened, and talking about how their views are shifting rightwards.

I think this is what's happening in broad strokes.
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>>95323504

That's the biggest issue, masses of people unwilling to see how the world is changing, in 5-10 years transportation will probably be heavily automated, that's millions more out, and they'll probably just find some "other" to blame instead of accepting they were simply left beyond by technology as has happened over and over since ages past.
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>>95323377

I'm fine with people having speech, but having political rights is another matter. I agree about people being too stupid to have an opinion, but for me that means limiting voting rights. Liberals might cheer about disenfranchising White trash, but it would also disenfranchise a lot of their base, poor minorities. I'd say it's a good idea to limit voting to 35 or above, same minimum age as the presidency, but then only boomers could vote. Ugh. But then having IQ tests just means the people behind the tests could rig things. It's a come issue, but I agree in principle. Studio people should not be allowed an equal opinion. And limiting opinions, not treating people equally that way, it's a very authoritarian, alt-right mindset.
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>>95311785
I seriously do not like Sorrentino's "art". It tries to have this moody shit but he's just another guy lazily tracing or putting filters over Poser models and covering everything in shadow to try and hide it. Anyone who does that should be blackballed desu
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>>95312684
$6.00!?, I could buy two DC comic books for six dollars, fuck THAT noise.
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>>95323505

Right.. they spell you out as disgusting for bowing down to ideologies built on murder.
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>>95323490
>Say the wrong thing and you're suddenly off the panels
>it's the right doing that

You got the wrong idea, mate
It's the "left" (nebulous as it is) that's forcing this.
Look at the Hugos.
Fuck what a disaster.
All the nerd "safe places" are being taken over by SJWs.
I'm not being some edgy /pol/ fag. Just listen.
Men who had nothing often had nerdy things. Like science-fiction and comic books
And now that's being taken over.
The Hugos, once the most important award in sci-fi has been destroyed by politics. It's only about sending a message now.
Comic books, while not wholly destroyed, obviously have a new demographic.

There is nothing left for the 15-45 year old nerd who doesn't do well with women or other people.
This isn't every "alt-righter" but it affects us on 4chan.
These people don't feel like they have a tribe any more.
The only tribe left are the people who say their tribe has been taken away
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>>95323388

I'm a half Chinese guy who taught myself Mandarin as an adult. So no, not self hating. I just think it's better to be an Asian minority in a White run country than a Black or a Hispanic one. And I think Elliot Rodger could have learned a lot from talking to the right people on 4chan (not r9k obviously).
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>>95316745
Ragnarok/Clone Thor is still around, ain't he?
>>
>>95323364

In the manner that their both totalitarian nationalistic ideologies with tons of propaganda, yeah. THeir are seperations but once you get into hard authoritaranism the phlsophical basis ususally stops mattering and you just get the same deathsquads and camps.
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>>95323504
>Long story short, I think we should be focusing on educating and developing an amazing and advancing workforce.
I totally agree
But you don't do that by saying white men are the fucking boogeymen
They're the biggest part of America.
You can't make progress with that kind of attitude.

This won't change until something catastrophic happens because the news networks thrive on violence. So much so they create false narratives to advance it. The news networks want class violence. They want men vs women. They want white vs everyone else.
Because it gets people to watch. They're turning society into a sports game where you have your team and you want the other one to lose.

That is fucking cancer. It's not going to change any time soon. And that's why this is not going to end well
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>>95323630

Nay. Hercules killed him and was never brought back.
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>>95323590

You really shouldn't be getting so angry about other groups getting more involved in your interest.

the SJWs their annoying but what political power do they actually have? Their mostly just some loud teenagers.
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>>95323648

Second biggest part, White Women are the largest group in the US. White Men are more aggreived because they were the majority of the first industries to really fall to automization. That isn't going to be the case for very long as it creeps into every single industry though.
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>>95323452

Nobody says this kind of thing about the other side though. What, you feel the need to identify with your Blackness? Or your sexuality? Well you're just a snowflake! Nobody says that. Only against White people. Everyone else is allowed to have a collective identity, but not Whites.
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>>95320588

Libertarianism is a failure for the same reason Communism is, the both assume everyone is a rational actor with good intent. Any ideology based on that is doomed to failure.
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>>95323673
It doesn't really matter about "politics"
Like congress has any say about how people feel.

I'm talking about how the average man feels. If every bit of media he consumes says he's a shithead, how do you think he'll react if someone says he isn't?
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>>95313086
I would say that taking over a nation as big (a freaking continent) as the United States, organize it and control it...also build a separate nation as Tian (build a city and goverment, bring mutants from around the glove, etc.), build concentration camps for inhumans, organize an army (how many could have hydra before? it was a nationless army now trying to control a giant nation) and make it super-effective to control dissidents and bring crime to almost 0...it would take 1 or 2 decades but by comics shenanigans let´s say between 6 months and a year.
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>>95313775
he still is on character.
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>>95323708
The difference is inconsequential.
And it's men that are being hounded now.
And men that have always been the engine of war and change.

Look, it's like this. Men of fighting age are the most dangerous demographic. If they're upset, then there will be revolution or war. That has never not been true. Philosophers thousands of years ago say it so.
Right now, more and more white men are getting angry and dissatisfied.
They're losing their jobs to automation. They're heating on the news that they're straight evil and the cause of everything wrong.

I keep saying it, but the ingredients are in the soup. It just needs to simmer.
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>>95323504

I'm Alt-Right and here's how I view it: The Right has short term solutions and no long term solutions. The Left has no short term solutions AND no long term solutions.

I'm 25 and heard way back in elementary school about the teachers preparing us for jobs that don't exist yet, the need for continuing education, etc. But as much as I support technological progress, I don't just think "more education" is the answer to automation. There are a lot of very right leaning people in Silicon Valley like James Damore, or my uncle, a millionaire software programmer.
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>>95323730

Uhh they get called Snowflakes all the time.

White's having a collective identity doesn't really make much sense given how diverse a group "white" in the United States is. Like what is the identity? White Irish Catholics? Italians? Evangelical Whites? Eastern Europeans? There's really not much in common historical experience beyond "has white skin"

For the most part African Americans formed a collective identity due to a set of shared experiences built into their history, same with LGBT, over time those will likely fade for most as they get generationally further from those experiences that shaped that identity.
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>>95323813
>Yeah, I hear that. And I don't know what to do about it, and I really don't like that the response seems to be a whole lot of younger fans swinging the alt-right.
You or I can't do fuck all
Except use twitter to complain and then get banned for complaining.

All we can do is tell people like us that you don't need to be angry. The lonely male demo hasn't gone any where. We're still here. We can still be friends. Even if all the world wants to tell us we're evil. We're still here
>>
>>95323813


I don't know, they could fly their state flags, go around with BBQ, wear fucking aligator skinned shoes. Seriously literally anything else would be less controversal. There's no real pride to be had in that flag, it's cause was vile and it was crushed. For some reason Americans have a much harder time accepting "this part of our history was really fucked up and doesn't deserve to be prided" than the Germans do with Nazi related stuff.
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>>95317553
Yea but then Dark Beast was brought back with no explanation in Secret Warriors. For once, people actually ignored Bendis' continuity
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>>95323828

So basically, your saying their the most easily triggered group in the world?
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>>95323648

I agree. That's why I support the unification of the country through nationalism. Even as a minority, I recognize that means accepting White values. I'd rather be a "model minority" Asian in a White run society than live in Brazil or Africa. Maybe those are nice countries for a vacation, but I don't want it for America. Whites created the Constitution and Bill of Rights and if non-Whites become a majority I don't expect them to retain it. If non-Whites become a majority, I don't expect them to care about the Constitution or Bill of Rights or any other product of Western Civilization. If they did care then their own countries would already have those values.
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>>95323911
No, not at all. Stop being retarded.
I'm saying that if everyone says you're shit, everyone who says you are shit is equally inflammatory
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>>95323833

The Left has UBI, which at the moment is probably the only viable at least band-aid to Automation until society can find a new order that can exist in such a changed world.
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>>95323933

Again here's the thing.. Whites in the US have no common cultural bond, they come from so many different backgrounds that trying to say "this is US white culture" is idiotic because there are so many sub groups of "white" with their own culture.

Nationalism both left and right eventually only leads to the same thing: Totalitarianism under some strong man.
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>>95323813

See >>95323329
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>>95323846

Our shared history is the entire canon of Western culture. It's a beautiful thing.

And no, I don't expect minority identities to fade away with time. African Americans still harken back to slavery a century and a half later.
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>>95323957

IRC some ridiculous percentage of native born citizens fail the citizenships test.. which really shows our failure in teaching civics.
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>>95323547
Why is this acceptable to you? What do you do with people who no longer have any means of supporting themselves because of the false song of technological progress? All you're doing is exacerbating the problem of the increasingly growing underclass and rapidly disappearing middle class. It's a cyberpunk future without all of the cybernetic bullshit or jacking your brain directly into the internet and people like you just go "oh well, shit happens lol sucks to be you".
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>>95323933
Don't make it a race thing.
America isn't great because of WHITEs
It's great because honest people worked together. And they were of Euro ancestry and they preserved Euro culture.
It's the Protestant Work Ethic that's important.
It's not a racial thing.

If you are American, you must let go of everything you left behind. As based Teddy said, you can be an American and nothing else.

Don't make it a race thing. Make it an American thing.
Clean houses, honest neighbors, the idea that you can leave your bike against a post and not worry about it being stolen.
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>>95323987

Jim Crow existed until the 60s dude, and even after that the strucutrual issues created have taken a long time to being to repair themselves.

As for Western Culture, Western Society has spent most of it's history fighting itself, jumping between system to system, this modern view of this unified Western Culture only really exist in the post WWII era.
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>>95323769

And Congress is far quicker to condemn the far-right than the far-left anyway.
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>>95323991
Because our "modern culture" has failed kids. The idea of "lol fuck america it's racist and shit mang" has gone all the way to kids.
So the don't pay attention to our history.
All the kids today idolize black rappers who hate society.

This sounds old man ranting, but it's true. Look at the "dabbing" phenomenon. It's a fucking black rap thing and it's a thing that every god damned kid is doing now.
It should be fucking disenfranchised minorities telling the majority of kids how to feel.
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>>95323813

If the first punch is a bullet to my friend's head or my fist to a guy's face, I'll sure as hell throw the first punch.

My family has been a long term military family willing to fight for our fellow man instead of waiting for someone to point the gun at us in the face. I'll go kick the shit out of someone with bullshit ideals to protect them in the future. If someone's political opinion is to kill my neighbor or deport them regardless of their contribution to our society, it's sucker punch time. Your opinions are not protected.

I AM in #punchNazi rhetoric. Don't you dare stand up for the rights of a defunct, murderous regime, or apologize for them. The right frequently calls the left too cowardly to stand up for themselves, but when they do, the right becomes too sensitive to get hit? Again, registered Republican here.
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>>95324046
*shouldn't
God damn it
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>>95323863

We can be friends and jerk each other off or we can be brothers and fight back. That's what the Alt-Right is.
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>>95323992

Because quite frankly it's inevitable. It's human nature to advance and advance and advance damn the short term consequences of it. So we have to base anything around that nature. Your never going to stop advancing technology it's simply not in humanities nature to do so.
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>>95324074
The alt-right has been corrupted by retards who use Nazi symbolism.
Look, I'm all about taking down leftist bullshit and making America better
But you can't do it with Nazi shit
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>>95324046

It has nothing to do with that, it's been this case for quite some time. It has to do with civics being pushed to the way side of education over the years. Hell in my High School we only had one civics class, and it was really simple. It's just not priortized at all. I had to study myself to really learn how this country works.

Also the time of Rap being super popular with all the kids was like last decade dude.
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>>95323940
Many in the Alt-Right support or are sympathetic to UBI. Anglin, Spencer, myself. I'm not sure it's a perfect answer, but at least it tries to look at the issue seriously.
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>>95324074

If you want people to approach and talk to you guys rationally and normally kick out the fucking actual Nazis and fascist.
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>>95324105
>Also the time of Rap being super popular with all the kids was like last decade dude.
And look what the children of that generation are letting slide.

Rap in any form is terrible. It's all about self-agrandizement. Me, me, me, me
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>>95323991
Yeah, civics hasn't been a priority for a long time. Dubya's "No Child Left Behind" neglected it, and Obama's fixes to the education system didn't include it. I presume it was neglected long before them.

>>95324009
>It's great because honest people worked together. And they were of Euro ancestry and they preserved Euro culture.
>It's the Protestant Work Ethic that's important.

Pretty good point.

>>95323986
He compromised his ethics many times, which is one of the reasons he fell.

His associates are racist, but Hydra as a whole, under Hydra Cap's ideology, preached racism against mutants and inhumans. Hydra during Secret Empire had many blacks and other minorities in their ranks.

>>95324046
>It should be fucking disenfranchised minorities telling the majority of kids how to feel.

Isn't that always the way it is?
>>95324050
>If someone's political opinion is to kill my neighbor or deport them regardless of their contribution to our society, it's sucker punch time. Your opinions are not protected.

That's fucking bullshit. You don't punch people for speech. Your face, you body, is protected under assault laws for (almost) everything you can say.

>I AM in #punchNazi rhetoric. Don't you dare stand up for the rights of a defunct, murderous regime, or apologize for them. The right frequently calls the left too cowardly to stand up for themselves, but when they do, the right becomes too sensitive to get hit? Again, registered Republican here.

This is BULLSHIT. This is no better than the alt-right, then the Nazis. You don't punch people for having bad opinions, because before long, that leads to everyone punching instead of speaking.

YOU DON'T PUNCH PEOPLE FOR SPEAKING, NO MATTER HOW REPULSIVE IT IS.

I say this as a machine Democrat, someone active in local politics, someone who's probably a lot more liberal than you.

All that leads to is nutters punching anyone who looks like their on the other side and out numbered.
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>>95324114

So then why not put aside all the other shit and work with the left to get that done, then we can go back to arguing over the other stuff when we have at least some band aid on society so it doesn't collapse while we fight over identity and shit.
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>>95324136

Rap can be about anything, it's just sung rhyme. their's Rap that tries to tell a message, Rap that yes does encourage selfishness, like any fucking genre.
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>>95323992

I'm not that poster, but just because you don't want to accept technological progress doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

You can whine and grouse for eternity that we should make things like the 1950s again, but we can't have it back. Secretaries lost their jobs to Microsoft Outlook. A hundred men with shovels lost their job to the hydraulic excavator. Time to learn more skills.
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>>95323971
Hispanics come from all over and Africa's a continent with many countries too. They're still allowed to adopt a larger Hispanic banner or pan-African identity. Whites' common culture is the Western canon.
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>>95312647
Can't wait for him to show up again someday after making his own avengers with blackjack and hookers to fight Cap.
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>>95324152

So, they're still racist... just racist towards a different group of people.

Again, disproves the whole notion of "Hydra aren't Nazis" and "Hydra aren't racist/bigoted" -- which were the points both Spencer and Alonso were drumming the whole time, in order to to not make Stevil too bad.
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>>95324180
Go and look what average rap is about
Majority is all about "yo i the biggest i the grateist fuk u i better dan u fuck u i the biggest"
What other music genre has the most popular signers being arrested for murder and assault all the time?
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>>95324009

What is Euro culture? Where does culture come from?

Culture doesn't exist in a void. Culture is the result of a certain ethnic group in a certain physical environment. Culture can't exist without people to create and maintain it. Other ethnic groups can come in and assimilate, but that will only be a minority of the minority. Uncle Toms like myself. And Asians, model minorities, are usually better at assimilation than other ethnic groups.
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>>95324101

Andrew Anglin makes that same argument. He does the whole Nazi thing for publicity, but he says at rallies like Charlottesville there should be no Nazi flags, only American ones. Appeal to the normies.
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>>95324152

If someone wants to talk about their right to have a reasonable job and an income that supports them, no problem. I don't want to punch them in the face.

If someone wants to tell me they are going to kill people for the color of their skin, or otherwise hurt them, I will stand up for them.

If someone threatened to rape your daughter, would you graciously ask that they apologize and defend their right to talk about raping your daughter?
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>>95324152

Yeah for decades now at least civics just hasn't been given near the focus it deserves.
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>>95324184

What skills? What if there aren't enough jobs, skilled or not? Then the entire social structure needs to change.
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>>95324185

I quite rarely see Hispancs adopt a larger "hispanic" identity, fuck a lot of Hispanic groups don't get along at all.

And more recent African Immigrants have a totally seperate cultural identity than African Americans whose families have roots in slavery.
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>>95312363
Cap has literally killed the Red Skull before. This page is stupid and this comic is bad.
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>>95324161

The Right just kind of wanted to keep things how they were before all that SJW crap. Then send have a lot more room to talk about UBI or anything else. Like Hydra Cap says, it's not about taking over the country, but taking it back.
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>>95324285

Yes.. that's why stuff like UBI is being talked about. the Social Structure IS going to have to change since there ARE NOT going to be enough jobs to go around no matter what we do.
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>>95324263
>If someone wants to tell me they are going to kill people for the color of their skin, or otherwise hurt them, I will stand up for them.
You mean Antifa?
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>>95324239
Asian here, and no, no, really, we're not. There is the illusion that we assimilate better into Western societies because we value hard work and order, and in this we're more similar to Western societies as a baseline, relative to certain other groups such as Arabs. But we also have a tendency to cluster in our own ethnic zones and associate mostly with other Asians, even into the 2nd and 3rd generations.
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>>95324314

the Right, most of it anyway would never consider UBI until things got utterly desperate.
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>>95324314
>The Right just kind of wanted to keep things how they were before all that SJW crap.
They say that, but it's more complicated than that
It's less about the glory of the past, but rather just the validation of the past.
The "Right" as you call them doesn't want to feel shame any more. They don't want to feel like they're being attacked for who they are.

It doesn't have to be about the past. The "Left" has made it so by saying again and again about how history will validate them. So only the past is left open to white men who don't want to feel shame.
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>>95324297

This is true, but that doesn't mean the media doesn't push identity politics. It's a real and powerful force in our society.
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>>95324263
>If someone wants to tell me they are going to kill people for the color of their skin, or otherwise hurt them, I will stand up for them.

And who on the right actually says these things? This is only an image that is being promoted by Regressive Leftists and the media, in order to provoke people to believe that there is some actual credible Nazi threat, when there isn't.
>>
>>95324285

If there aren't enough jobs, skilled or not, we have unfortunately survived too long enough to sustain our population. It is survival of the fittest. In the history of humanity, it hasn't even been that long since the Irish potato famine culled 20% of their population. Life isn't fair. Adapt.
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>>95324368

I talking about the Alt-Right. The youth. Not boomer conservatives who fight wars for oil.
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>>95324323

Antifa is a barely organized group with no cohesive anything really, they've been turned into a boogyman cause of the shit that happened in Berkley. But their more akin to an even less organized OWS than your standard Alt-Right group.
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>>95324337

But clustering is quite different than crime and rioting like in the Black community.
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>>95324400
Hmm... Yes... Ok
Like the alt-right?
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>>95324323
>You mean Antifa?

Antifa means anti-fascist. They are against people who are fascists.
>>
I just want to say, I recently came back from a year in China, and it's great to be having a discussion like this on 4chan again. Thanks to you all.
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>>95324406

That's mostly because Asians tend to have a lot more money. If you want to reduce Crime in any group, improve their economic conditions.
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>>95312161
Is BuckyNat coming back?

wtf I love Spencer now?
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>>95324445
That's what makes it so ironic.
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>>95324386

Uh, you can click one link over and go to /pol/ where they want to deport people who had no choice in coming to the country, or look at Charlottesville where a guy crashes his car into a crowd around the banners of Nazi flags, or the absolute apprehension at accepting any refugees from nations WE fucked up.

On the anniversary of 9/11 two days ago my buddy that is a 3rd generation Indian American DOCTOR got told to "go back to Afghanistan."
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>>95324479

Im always amazed at how stupid racist confuse Hindus and shiks with Muslims all the fucking time.
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>>95324406
Yes, that is true. But we don't do massive crime and rioting because we value, on our own terms, orderly societies. It's a pre-existing part of our cultures that happens to mesh well with existing Western culture, and not something which we learn from the West through assimilation.

What I'd like to point out is that it's not so much that we're good at assimilating, as we are pre-assimilated for the West because we already share similar core values. If you look at East Asian populations in India or Pakistan or Africa, you find that we 'assimilate' very very poorly in those regions, because the cultures have very different baselines.
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>>95312317
>FORGETTING ABOUT UTOPIA
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>
>>95324461

It's all so recursive though. What does it mean to improve their economic conditions? Because it sure a heck isn't welfare or sending money to Africa. No, to improve economic conditions means teaching them to fish, fundamentally changing their culture, even something like colonialism.
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>>95324445
>Antifa means anti-fascist. They are against people who are fascists.
Hahhaha.
No.
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>>95324479
If we're taking /pol/ seriously, then shouldn't we also take "castrate all men" tumblrites seriously?
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>>95324479

The Alt-Right wasn't in Charlottesville looking for violence. They were heavily armed, so if that were the case, things would have been a lot worse.

And the Alt-Right is against bombings that create more refugees and against allowing them in. It's against both.
>>
>>95324461
And why do we have more money? Because culturally, we value hard work and family structure, which allows for the accumulation of capital across multiple generations. We also have a savings culture and value frugalness. And that helps too.

Having a lot more money isn't just a thing that happened in a vacuum. If you look at the history of Japanese and Chinese populations on the West Coast of America, many of these people were dirt poor at the beginning. The Japanese were mainly employed in agricultural labor, similar to how the Mexicans function now. And many of the Chinese 'Cooleys' were literally slaves. These people built up their communities through generations of hard work.

These are qualities which I don't see existing in the current Black community. So their economic conditions cannot be improved without first improving their terrible culture which worships crime and failure and has a decimated family structure. They couldn't hold onto wealth even if you gave it to them.
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>>95324522

You've about got the right of it friend.
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>>95312149
Nick Spencer had Mobil not fix that so he can pretend his run matters.
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>>95324529

I'm going to bed, so this is the last thing I'm going to say. But with the enforcement of your "right to free speech," the cops are going to do nothing but tell him he shouldn't say that. And how are you going to "stand up to him" without the threat of fighting him off the assault he's going to give your daughter? You're only going to fight him after he rapes her? What if he's raped your neighbor?

General statements basically match up with personal statements. "Deport all Mexicans" still means "deport your Mexican friend," no matter how you want to reframe it.
>>
>>95324602

Well gee, I agree with you, but it's funny because now it looks like there are at least three Asians posting. Anonymity, pros and cons.
>>
>>95324630

Well gee, if we ban speech, why not ban the thoughts behind the speech? Looks like we have a real Civil War II Carol Danvers here.
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>>95324529
>Most Immigrant groups do, people only really start breaking out in the 3rd/4th generation. And lots of people like to live in their ethnic neighborhoods because they're cozy, but everyday they participate in mainstream American culture when they go to work.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. We don't necessarily assimilate better or faster than other groups. There's just the illusion that we do because we started out more similar.
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>>95324602

I won't deny im not a fan of "ghetto" culture, but I hate when people attribute it to genetics and shit. I do think we need to do something about that but it's a nurture not nature thing.
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>>95324763
Culture is the result of distinct ethnic groups in distinct environments. The nurturing itself is a form of nature, an adaptation to the physical environment. And what kind of nurturing can often be traced back to a certain ethnic group that had to adapt.
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>>95324763
Personally I do feel that there is a genetic component to it, not in the sense that African descendants in general are predisposed to criminality or whatever, but that the ancestral population of Blacks in America specifically, being slaves for agricultural work, had selection pressures placed on them by their owners that favored greater physical strength and did not favor mental acuity. And yes, there were multiple generations of selective breeding going on. And I don't see that such a thing would have no effect on the population in general.

However, I agree that any viable policy would have to be based around nurture. And we know that the culture DOES play a huge role, whatever the underlying genetics. We know historically that Black Americans once had a much more intact family structure, and during this period had higher rates of gainful employment and lower crime rates. It wasn't really until the advent of modern welfare programs that incentivized single motherhood that we really started to see the severe decay of Black communities.
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>>95324285
The end result is corporate feudalism.
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>>95324285
U B I
B
I
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>>95324905
There's a great Black guy by the name of Jesse Lee Peterson who does YouTube videos on this. He grew up on a plantation under Jim Crow, but he's very right wing now.
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>>95324630
>And how are you going to "stand up to him" without the threat of fighting him off the assault he's going to give your daughter? You're only going to fight him after he rapes her?

If I punch him, I go to jail. The moment he lays a hand on my daughter or tresspasses on my property I can attack him, even shoot him. (It's really hard to get a residential permit in this liberal City, but once you do the Castle Laws here are pretty strong.)

>General statements basically match up with personal statements. "Deport all Mexicans" still means "deport your Mexican friend," no matter how you want to reframe it.

Yeah, I agree, and I'm against that. The answer is not going around punching people.

>>95324661
Who cares if you assimilate? If you work, if you contribute more then you take, and you don't commit crime, everything is good. Either you'll assimilate eventually, or we have nifty ethnic neighborhoods with awesome food next door.
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>>95324931
Yup, I'm inclined to agree.
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>>95312261
What was the point of demolishing free and new buildings they could just use instead?
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>>95325001
Symbolism
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>>95314434
>negotiation
Where did you get that stupid idea from? He suddenly popped in with magneto and Namor (the guy with an advanced army) out of nowhere and declared a major shipping lane to be his property right before starting his own shipping business.
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>>95325001
Collective Punishment.
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>>95319508
>>95319632
He also inexplicably appeared from a dimension that it was supposed to be impossible to leave due to a mini-event. It was basically the evil X-men equivalent of the original Mar-Vell showing up nowadays for the sole purpose of a dramatic death.
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>>95324952
>Who cares if you assimilate? If you work, if you contribute more then you take, and you don't commit crime, everything is good. Either you'll assimilate eventually, or we have nifty ethnic neighborhoods with awesome food next door.
well, personally, I care. I'm a first generation Chinese immigrant, naturalized citizen, and what I see is that America is rapidly sliding away from the orderly meritocratic society that I found attractive in the first place. And as it does so I find myself disassociating more and more with the American part of my identity. And it's not something that I really want to happen, but it's happening anyway.

I dunno, I just think that it's important to really understand the underlying mechanisms with the 'model minority' bit, because as the American society changes, weird things are gonna happen behind the scenes with how different groups respond to those changes.
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>>95315880
Doom wasn't in Hell. He was in the past due to time travel involving the Thunderbolts/Millar's Fantastic Four
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>>95314746
Honestly, she didn't need any excuse. The X-men were retarded enough to talk about murdering her in front of her brother at the same time a mutant cure existed, then when she tried to peacefully avoid being murdered they immediately went for murder as the first option YET AGAIN until she git tired of their shit.
Even if they didn't want to permanently depower her they could have just suggested some /ss/ with Leech and all future problems would have been avoided.
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>>95325278
>and what I see is that America is rapidly sliding away from the orderly meritocratic society that I found attractive in the first place.

In what way? What were the parts you found attractive?

The biggest change I see is the SJW push, and that's coming from rich white kids who are probably 6th generation or more, not from immigrant kids.
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>>95325352

Personally as a second gen Puerto Rican living in NYC I have no fucking idea what the American Identity is anymore. There's so much conflict between different regions, between cities and small towns, between everything that I feel there isn't really an American Identity at all, at best theirs some regional identities, but even those are limited into a few states.
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>>95325435
>between everything that I feel there isn't really an American Identity at all, at best theirs some regional identities, but even those are limited into a few states.
Psssst: That's how it's been for a majority of American history
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>>95325435
I live in NYC too (Central Queens), and it's weird - it's pretty peaceful racially here, every ethnicity has their own neighborhood and then mixes in Manhattan at work.

But you look at the news, you look at the rest of the country, you look at the angry crowds outside Trump Tower... and it feels like something is falling about.

>I feel there isn't really an American Identity at all, at best theirs some regional identities

I think my "New Yorker" identity is almost as strong as my "American" identity.
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>>95325352
Well, the most attractive bit to me has gotta be the whole idea of the free market and free enterprise. When you come down to it that's like the purest manifestation of meritocracy you can have, right? If you're good, if you have the skills, make a quality product, you succeed and you float. And if you can't, then you fail and you sink. And that's great! We compete, we see who's better, and you get a system that's really good at maximizing human potential.

But lately that's all being so severely corroded by yes, the SJW push. There's diversity hires just fucking everywhere. And somehow nobody seems to see the problem with this in the mainstream.

And Marvel itself is a great example of this. You take something like America, right? I know I'm grabbing at the lowest-hanging fruit but it really is just such a perfect example. You've got this character that's a lesbian latina, and Marvel hires this Gabby person, who is also a lesbian latina. But the problem is she's got no background whatsoever with comics. She's never worked in the industry and she's not a comics fan. She writes YA novels in traditional prose. And it's not like they put her in training or like a work study program. They just hand her this huge heavily marketed title.

And of course America crashes and burns. Not even necessarily on the politics angle, but mostly because the writer's just not qualified to handle such a project. And it's everywhere now, not just Marvel. Lots of hiring, including at my own workplace, is being done on the basis of various identity traits, not of actual merit. There's a huge mainstream approval of these things, and I just see it as a complete betrayal of the entire meritocratic principle of the free market.

And no, I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I'm not making any claims that the SJW push is coming from recent immigrants. It is associated with recent immigrants, but that's mostly the 6th generation+ rich white kids exploiting them for their politics
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>>95325559
>And Marvel itself is a great example of this. You take something like America, right? I know I'm grabbing at the lowest-hanging fruit but it really is just such a perfect example. You've got this character that's a lesbian latina, and Marvel hires this Gabby person, who is also a lesbian latina. But the problem is she's got no background whatsoever with comics. She's never worked in the industry and she's not a comics fan. She writes YA novels in traditional prose. And it's not like they put her in training or like a work study program. They just hand her this huge heavily marketed title.

That's a really good point. There seems to be a whole bunch of authors who've been thrown to comics (instead of hiring from the legion of eager aspiring comic writers) without any real training at all. Some do better than others, but even the best (Ti-Nashi Coates. who clearly is a fan or at least did his reading, or Chelsea Cain) don't seem prepared for the medium or for the fans.
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>>95324952
>or we have nifty ethnic neighborhoods with awesome food next door.
You're everything wrong with our country.
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>>95325545
>But you look at the news, you look at the rest of the country, you look at the angry crowds outside Trump Tower... and it feels like something is falling about.
>But you look at the news,

There's your problem desu. Things are nowhere near as bad as they're made out to be.
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>>95325626
>Jelly because your taste buds can't enjoy the delicious taste of ethnic food made by recent or 1st generation immigrants
It's okay anon, I'd be mad too if I was in your shoes
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>>95311806
Pictured: Marvel's sales.
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>>95325559
>If you're good, if you have the skills, make a quality product, you succeed and you float. And if you can't, then you fail and you sink. And that's great! We compete, we see who's better, and you get a system that's really good at maximizing human potential.
>But lately that's all being so severely corroded by yes, the SJW push.

Absolutely breathtaking naivety.
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>>95325626
What's the problem with ethnic neighborhoods in big cities? If they work, if they don't commit crime, what's the big deal? Chinatown isn't going to take over the country.

>>95325633
>Things are nowhere near as bad as they're made out to be.

I pray that's true. It's rough for me, but still warm and comfy, and I can live with that.
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>>95325620
There's also the whole thing of national pride that the SJW push is fucking up. I remember when I was a kid, Christopher Columbus was a celebrated figure. And when you look at what he did, even IF most of it was lies and storytime for the kiddies, like his primary goal was to find trade routes and he wasn't the one who originated the 'world is round' idea, what he accomplished is still pretty fucking impressive.

But now it's all about 'oh Columbus is so evil, he brought the white man and they conquered and genocided the Natives. And from Columbus on down there's this similar effect on the rest of popular Americana. To the point where now just displaying the American flag is associated with fascism?

So with all of the shaming going on in general being associated with an American identity, I sometimes find myself asking this question: if the Americans are so horrible, so evil, so oppressive, if one is not allowed to take pride in the American identity and culture, or to be thrilled by American accomplishments, why the fuck would I want to be an American?
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>>95323908
>For once, people actually ignored Bendis' continuity
Actually, it happens pretty often. Bendis doesn't respect other people's continuity, so nobody other than Ewing (because he respects everything) feels the need to follow Bendis'.
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>>95325531

Only since the sixties. Don't believe historical revisionist lies Iike this.
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>>95325809
Well, I'm sorry I have ideals and dreams, anon. I don't think being too cynical is a very helpful quality.
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>>95325809
How about you propose counter arguments like a mature person, rather than turning your nose up at posts as if you feel you're superior to anyone?
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>>95325559

No, it's mostly the Jews and their useful idiots.
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>>95325824

Exactly. I'd like to go back to a society like you describe before Columbus was evil and we had the SJW push on everything. It's why Trump asked if they'd be taking Jefferson statues down next. It's why I'm Alt-Right. Is it really so extreme to want to go back to the social norms of only two decades ago?
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>>95325934
>two decades ago
So, late 90s, early 2000s?
You know conservatives were bitching about corrupt social values and morals and the decay of America back then too, right?
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>>95325976

Yeah, but my god were their concerns quaint compared to today.
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>>95325934
I can't say I agree with the alt-right on most of your policies. But I can understand the viewpoint and where you guys are coming from, as a reactionary movement to the SJW push and how demonized European descendants seem to be these days.

That being said... I have serious disagreements with you guys' marketing department. I don't believe that most of you are neonazis or KKK or whatever, but man, it's such awful optics at your events when you've got those guys marching around with torches and swastika flags and shit. And yeah, I know, freedom of speech and such, they have the right to fly those flags, but they're not doing your movement any favors.
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>>95325990
There concerns didn't seem quaint to them; they were deadly serious.
I'm sure your concerns today will also be seen as quaint two decades from now.
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>>95326026
Their concerns*
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>>95326013

You're not wrong. Anglin only started with the Nazi aesthetic to attract the most attention. But even he says we shouldn't wave Nazi flags any more.
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>>95326026

Well that'll be a future with normalized pedophilia then. Or something equally bad. That's just the point I'm trying to make. Enough people have reached a breaking point that there's reactionary blowback. Like the other poster here said earlier, it's a recipe for serious conflict.
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>>95325824
>To the point where now just displaying the American flag is associated with fascism?
Stop using strawmen.
Yes, Columbus isn't viewed very well these days, but only the most radical of fringes that has no real influence on anything think that the American flag is fascist.
People aren't saying that you shouldn't take pride in America, they're saying you shouldn't blindly defend it and refuse to admit that some things need to be fixed.
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>>95326088
The radical Leftists of yesterday have become the political center of modern society. Left unchecked this trend will continue. Anti-Fa and their values will simply be the vanguard and two decades from now their platform will be entirely normalized. That's based on historical precedent for the last fifty years. The mission of the Alt-Right is to stop it, to reverse the trend.
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>>95325824
>So with all of the shaming going on in general being associated with an American identity, I sometimes find myself asking this question: if the Americans are so horrible, so evil, so oppressive, if one is not allowed to take pride in the American identity and culture, or to be thrilled by American accomplishments, why the fuck would I want to be an American?

Excellent point. I agree with most of what you said, it's a shame it's so late I can't think of anything else to add to it.

>>95325934
>Is it really so extreme to want to go back to the social norms of only two decades ago?

In a weird way, it's like our politics stayed the same, and everything else shifted.

The same political positions that made me far-left under Dubya Bush somehow make me a right-winger, and even god forbid alt-right, under Trump.

>>95325976
Exactly. I hated conservatives and fundies trying to thought police us then, and I hate SJWs trying to do it now.
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>>95326138
>That's based on historical precedent for the last fifty years
What precedent? The hippies sure as hell didn't turn America into a socialist commune. Neither did any of the other left-wing movements tha came and went over the years.
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>>95326074
>Well that'll be a future with normalized pedophilia then. Or something equally bad.
>muh slippery slope
What the sick fuck kinda world do you live in where you think child abuse will ever be normalized? No one is advocating for that. The most anyone wants to do is ensure every human being is treated respect and not discriminated against. If you follow the law and work and pay your taxes and contribute to society, you should be treated fairly. That's all they want.

And it can't be stated enough: The only people with a vendetta against white men are a fringe group. No, not everyone is out to get you. Stop with the persecution complex you accuse the other side of having.
>>
"I am not a 'Neo-Nazi White Supremacist.' In fact, I do not even know what that is. It has not ever been defined by the people who use it, despite repeated requests for a definition. I am also not a 'hater,' nor do I know what that term means when it is used to refer to me. It would seem to be self-explanatory – 'a person who is driven by the emotion of hate' – and yet I am not driven by hate, but rather by a genuine desire to see Western civilization continue into the future. One could even say that I am driven by love, if one wanted to get sappy about it...it may be worthwhile to let the record show that I am a very nice person, who has always treated people of all races as individuals in any and all of my one-on-one interpersonal interactions." - Andrew Anglin
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>>95325824
>To the point where now just displaying the American flag is associated with fascism?
Show me one example of somebody actually saying this that isn't some nobody on the internet or holding a sign up at a protest.
Are you perhaps thinking about the Confederate flag? Because that's the only flag people have a real problem with these days. Other than the Nazi flag of course.
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>>95326088
>the most radical of fringes that has no real influence on anything
No, I completely disagree with this assessment. As I see it, if anything it's the radical fringes these days that wield massively outsized influence.

Either that or these 'radical fringes' are more mainstream than you realize. For example, you've got major political figures using SJW talking points all the time, like Hillary Clinton's recent television interview where she claimed something like 'sexism and misogyny are endemic in American society.' But America is pretty much the best place in the world for women to live.

>People aren't saying that you shouldn't take pride in America
No, again, I'm sorry, but there are people who say such things. And on the fixing issue, I don't see that the proposals the SJWs make would fix any of the problems that they claim to want fixed. For instance, I'm the same guy that was talking about >>95324602 . I don't see how reparations for slavery, as the SJWs propose, would fix the underlying problems with Black American culture that prevents them from building up wealth over time.
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>>95326179
>>95324114
>>95326041
I always suspected Anglin had a small group of dedicated trolls with him trying to tilt /pol/ in his direction, long before he even started the Stormer.

>>95326173
>And it can't be stated enough: The only people with a vendetta against white men are a fringe group.

As someone who's "white ethnic", and not white enough for the racists and neo-Nazis, it doesn't feel that way. Over the last few years anti-white rhetoric (and somehow me and my people are always white to them, even though we're not white to the Nazis they claim to oppose) has ramped up tremendously. And I'm not hearing it from strangers protesting or Anon of 4chan, I'm hearing it from real live people, some who could potentially ruin my career and life if I offend them.

They sure don't feel like a fringe group when they're popping up en mass IRL, especially in many fandom spaces.
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>>95326173

Who would have imagined trans rights being a thing twenty years ago? And if you don't teach your kids to respect it that makes you a bigot. The slippery slope is real.

Three years ago the New York Times published an older titled "Pedophilia: A Disorder, Not a Crime."

The New York Times. That's not some fringe publication. It's called normization. The ideas often takes several decades to become mainstream, but they start slow by playing on sympathies and shaming people by calling them bigots. There have been similar articles in Slate and elsewhere.
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>>95326218
>But America is pretty much the best place in the world for women to live.
Even if that were true, just because other countries are worse doesn't mean that there aren't still problems here. America still has problems with sexism, and they affect both men and women.
Hillary Clinton isn't using SJW talking points. She's using feminist talking points that have been around for decades. Agree or disagree with her if you want, hate her as much as you want, but she isn't a SJW.
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>>95326265
I would just like to point out that the article you're talking about is saying that pedophiles should be treated like mentally ill people that need therapy, it isn't trying to normalize them at all.
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>>95326265
>Three years ago the New York Times published an older titled "Pedophilia: A Disorder, Not a Crime."

That's true tho. It's a disorder. It's only a crime if they actually rape a child. And pedopanic can reach absurd levels, leading to witch hunts similar to the ones SJWs carry out.
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>>95326284
Wow, I didn't realize my post got deleted. Protesting injustice done to you just gets you in more trouble?
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>>95312230
All you gotta do for a perfect world is just kill all the damn mutties.
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>>95326251

Hm. I came into the Alt-Right through The Right Stuff back when it was all articles and no podcasts. Nearly five years ago. And I came to 4chan through /co/ story times like this before migrating to /pol/ as well. Only started reading the Stormer this past year. Eventually he might not need trolls because people like me just speak their minds anyway.
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>>95326195
No, I'm talking about the red white and blue, ol' glory, the stars and stripes.

And no, I don't subscribe to your cutoff point here where somehow it only matters if I can find an example to your arbitrary specifications. People on the internet and people holding up signs at protests are really real people and wield political and social influence. Their very existence demonstrates a viewpoint which actually exists in the American public.
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>>95326218
>No, I completely disagree with this assessment. As I see it, if anything it's the radical fringes these days that wield massively outsized influence.
On the internet perhaps.

It'd be useful to remember that the Right controls the House of Reps, the Senate, and the Presidency. You know, the people that actually write the laws and pass them.

>>95326265
1. That article is an Op Ed
2. It's advocating for therapy and treatment of pedophiles before they actually commit the crime.

Also yes, trans should be treated like regular people as well. What they identify as has 0 bearing on your life.
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>>95326337
>Eventually he might not need trolls because people like me just speak their minds anyway.

I guess that was his end game all along.
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>>95326350
>and wield political and social influence
So by that logic racists, nazis and the KKK wield political and social influence?

Their existence doesn't matter unless there's enough of them to reach positions of power or for politicians to feel like they have to do what they say.
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>>95326350
>and wield political and social influence.
Not much. K Street and other interest groups wield outsized influence. They are the only ones that really matter at the higher levels.
CITIZENS UNITED WAS A MISTAKE
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>>95326296
>>95326305

We went from considering sexual devancy a crime to considering it a disorder to allowing gay marriage. This process tool several decades.
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>>95326393
More like thousands of years
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>>95326393
Acts between consenting adults is not equivalent to sexual abuse of a minor
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>>95326393
Here is the important difference: consent. Homosexuality involves sexual relations between consenting adults (or between consenting teens).
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>>95326365
>>95326378

The point is that they'll attain positions of power in the coming decades unless we them. It's a long process and we want to stop it at the source. Somewhere among the Anti-Fa crowd is the next Barack Obama.
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>>95326365
>Also yes, trans should be treated like regular people as well.
Why should I respect the opinions of a person who dresses up in a costume, wig, and mutilates their genitals? If a man or woman came up to you and said "I identify as Batman now. Call me Batman." and got reconstructive surgery to insert bat ears on top of their skulls, would you humor their make-believe?

The trans lifestyle doesn't affect anyone else directly, but it's an absurd way of life nonetheless, and it doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal like some leftists believe it should.
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>>95326393
marriage is still defined as only legal between consenting adults. we just removed a bunch of erata that said "but not these kinds of adults"
Nobody is pushing for the minimum age for marriage to be lowered, and given the climate, we're far more likely to see people pushing for the abolition of marriage altogether
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>>95326436
>>95326429

Says you. But who's to say twenty years from now that very opinion won't get you called a bigot?
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>>95326272
I'm sorry, but this appears to be a core disagreement. I certainly don't think America has any 'endemic' problems with sexism, and in my personal experience I find that men and women are almost perfectly egalitarian here in America.

I agree with Hillary on some points and disagree with her on others. I don't have any particular emotional reactions toward her, because I don't think these emotions are useful when dealing with political matters. And as far as this label of SJW, if this is a core difference in definition, then I'm afraid there's not much to be done. In my view, she is certainly an SJW, because a huge amount of her campaign marketing was built around the idea that she deserved the Presidency not on the strength of her ideas and platform, but on the basis of her sex, and that her election would fulfill some kind of debt owed to her by society in general as payment for past perceived inequalities towards women, as exemplified by the marketing slogans like 'it's her turn.' And that's really at the crux of all the SJW agendas, that people should take certain actions in order to make up for past or current social debts accrued by others.
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>>95326438
>The point is that they'll attain positions of power in the coming decades unless we them
Just like the hippies got into positions of power?
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>>95326439
>would you humor their make-believe?
I see no reason not to. it costs as much effort on my part as remembering if someone prefers Mrs. or Ms. and intentionally antagonizing them would take even more effort than that. Its just not economical.
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>>95326439

Or to spread propaganda and indoctrinate children.
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>>95326378
>So by that logic racists, nazis and the KKK wield political and social influence?
Of course they do. Much like the Regressive Left, these elements of the far right also wield outsized influence despite being a fringe group. Just look at how many people are so terrified of Nazis in the current narrative. That's all political and social influence right there.
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>>95326465

They mellowed out a bit, but yeah, they did. The Alt-Right and many on /pol/ blame boomers for a lot of this.
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>>95326485
If we didn't have influence then they wouldn't be afraid.
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>>95326496
>The Alt-Right and many on /pol/ blame boomers for a lot of this.
Funny, liberals blame boomers for a lot of things too.
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>>95326448
I'm to say. Along with 99.9% of the population.
Again, two consenting adults being butt buddies is not equal to an adult diddling a little kid and traumatizing them for life. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.
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>>95326529
The difference between the far left and the far right is that the far right is willing to call the one percent by their real names, the Jews.
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>>95326485
Of course people are terrified of Nazis. Their grandpas fought in a horrific war to beat their ass and erase them from existence just a few decades ago.
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>>95326542
And two decades ago the vast majority of the population would look at trans as disgusting. Now it's being pushed as a civil rights issue.
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>>95326478
>I see no reason not to.
So you would be perfectly fine living in a world where more and more people simply "become" things on impulse, wear costumes and pretend to be shit like badgers and motorcycles, and enforce the acceptance of multiple gender pronouns all so their fragile feelings don't get hurt. And you would consider all this normal.

I'll be honest. I don't like you, I don't think your indifferent attitude is healthy, and we need less people like you in this country. You are simply content to lie back and watch civilization crumble simply because it would take too much effort to do anything in opposition.
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>>95326557
okay, so we're in agreement that racists, nazis, and the KKK wield political and social influence, yes?
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>>95326551
>The far left and the far right both hate Israel for completely different reasons
It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
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>>95326575
A D U L T S
D
U
L
T
S

>>95326613
Yes. Every group with some following wields political and social influence. It's just that they don't wield much. And don't have lobbyists on their payroll. And so pretty much have no voice.
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>>95326615
Oh what the heck, I'll laugh anyway.
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>>95326529
they ruined the economy
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>>95326615
Richard Spencer went on Israeli TV last month and called himself a White Zionist. There's a lot of truth to that, which is why many Leftists hate Israel. American Jews included.
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>>95326641
And yet, these fringe groups on the right and left wield enough influence to have completely dominated the American political debate for the last two years or so. I would say that is quite a bit of influence.

Also, having lobbyists on your payroll is not the end-all be-all of political influence, by the by. And this condition is also just an arbitrary cutoff of yours which I do not subscribe to.
>>
Oh, the thread is over post limit.

Well, gentlemen, it's been a fine night discussing politics with you all. Surprised at how civil it's been, really. And yes, even with you, >>95326641 , although our interactions seem to have mostly been at cross purposes.
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>>95326610
>You are simply content to lie back and watch civilization crumble
Bruh
Every single generation (with rare exceptions) says that shit. From the beginning of human civilization to the present, and into the future as well. I promise you it's going to be okay and humans will continue to drive on with or without your opposition to perceived societal decay.
Friendly reminder the greatest civilization(s) in human history fell but we still have tiny computers in our pockets that can access the entirety of mankind's accumulated knowledge in a few seconds.
Crack open a history book every now and then.
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>>95326641
Scream "adults" all you want. Your values weren't the norm in the past and they won't be in the future. What seems so obvious and logical to you today, and even to the majority of society, it can change rather quickly. History bears this out.
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>>95326708
Civilization can rise from the ashes, but I'd still like to prevent the fires.
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>>95326746
Nah. I think you just want to fight fire with fire
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>>95319839




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