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File: FH04JAU_WIRCON_05.jpg (21 KB, 450x450)
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Is the hand-strength not there?
>>
Wire nuts aren't safe for household use, hobby use and maybe in your car if you're fucking lazy.
The entire rest of the world knows this, not just europe as you're seeming to imply.

But hey, don't listen to me, build your house out of plaster and cheap-ass wood, wire your electrics using outdated methods, it's completely fine, you can just take out another lone every time it burns down or is knocked over by a breeze, i'm sure it's working out far cheaper for you.
>>
>>1329636
>he thinks that a brick house survives everyday straight line winds in the flatlands
>he lives in a 150 year old house with no insulation, no AC, radiator heating, dirty cistern water supply that forces him to use segregated faucets because half of the water is not safe for ingestion

Living the life it sounds like anon
>>
>>1329651
What you described probably applies to less than 10 houses in the entirety of europe
>>
I soldered every wire and pig tail on my 12,000 ft mansion ans used stainless steel heat shrink tubing. No wire nuts here thank you
>>
>>1329636
can confirm
My house burns down from electrical fires every year.
>>
>>1329665
Sure, if you redefine 'house'. Kind of like how the FTC in the US thinks broadband is anything above 1.5 megs. If you change the definition to a place were someone lives then his description covers about 40% of europe.
>>
Proper nut use dictates that the stripped ends be twisted with pliers prior to installing the nut
>>
>>1329674
>40% of people in Europe live in a 150yo house
>Being this much of a clueless amerifat
>>
>>1329690
>3rd world jelly
>>
>>1329634
nobody stupid enough to use them in EU.
EUs "lazy way" is twisting wire leads and then isolating with blue electrical tape.
>>
>>1329690
This
Nobody actually lives in houses, they live in communal housing unless they are rich.
>>
Nobody has any idea how anything works on other continents but on 4chan that doesn't matter.
>>
>>1329707
>Nobody has any idea how anything works on other continents but on 4chan that doesn't matter.

More importantly we also don't care
>>
>>1329707
Well, I guess I started a ShitPost.

OP here.

>Be Me
>In affluent part of TX recently, Friend asked me to fix a run of recessed lights. Ok
>Recessed lights were "top of the line", had clips, clamps to make connections. No sweat. Clamps were loose, wires had fallen out, not making a connection, even arcing.
>Look up these clips/clamps, find out they are the big thing in Europe
>Find out Europeans think Americans are crude and dumb for twisting wires together.
>Have twisted hundreds, maybe thousands of wires together over last 20 yrs, Never a problem, never a loose connection, never damage to wire or casing.
>Decide Europeans are too limp-wristed to twist together 4 wires.
>>
>>1329707
I stayed in europe for a while, and the 2 faucet thing really threw me off. Its horrible
>>
>>1329722
I never got to the Resolution

>Cut off High End clamps, twisted wires together, put on wire nut, taped.
>Problem resolved.
>>
Most of yurop is Africa now
>>
>>1329667
solder suffers from stress fractures. wire nuts are actually proven to have better longevity. it's why they're code and solder is not in australia. you're working with ~110/220V, not tiny ~1v high frequency signals that suffer from induction problems with physical connections.

did you solder your breakers or just screw them in?
>>
>>1329728
capacitive problems*
>>
>>1329722
>Europe Fags go silent.
>Look at their wrists.
>>
>>1329746
>Euro-Fag: "Fuck."
>>
>>1329747
Yeaaaaasssssss.
>>
>>1329672
This.

I've use wire nuts in my house all the time, and I'm always waking up surrounded by fire and smoke.

You'd think I would have learned by now, but I'm just addicted to them.
>>
>>1329757
>>wire nuts
>>not even once
>>
OP is a literal retard
>>
>>1329634
We use wago clips. Far superior.
>>
>>1329636
>thinks people should take his advice about electrical safety when he doesn't even know how to spell the word loan
>>
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>>1329833
>wago clips
10/10 once you realize there is a release catch and you don't have to snip the wire ...
>>
>>1329874
You can just twist wires out of those. No need for a pick to engage a release.
>>
>>1329723
That's literally only UK.
>>
>>1329667
>soldering house wires

That's against code in many places. Under stress the solder can break and under heavy load it can actually melt before the breaker trips. That's fine in electronics that are in a metal box, but not fine inside your house walls. Use wire nuts or crimp tubes.

>>1329723
>>1329886
You mean one for hot and one for cold? I grew up with those in the USA. It is a hold over from really old plumbing. I haven't seen it in like 30 years.
>>
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Service electrician here, 20+ years exp.

Wagos suck balls for high current applications. I would never use them in my own house for anything that would draw more than 10 Amps. I've seen a Wago literally explode when subjected to a short. (Apprentice miswired)

Wagos are great for contractors doing new construction bid work. Fast to put together = higher profit. Most electrical contractors in my area only offer a year warranty on labor after the job is done. If the Wagos make it past a year, that's all they care about.

>Proper nut use dictates that the stripped ends be twisted with pliers prior to installing the nut.

Not all wire nuts in the US do, read the box closely. I pre-twist if I have more than 2 wires. Also, no need to wind the insulated part like in OP's picture. Makes it a PITA to take apart for service work.

Also, if you're an electrician in the US, buy yourself the tool in my picture. 3M makes it. Puts wire nuts on fast and tight. Also helps remove old stubborn wire nuts.

Shout out to any of my Union brothers here!
Work harder and be a smarter Electrician than our NU competition!
(I'm sure that will start a shit storm, but whatever. I'm a hard working premium electrician, and I make premium pay!)
>>
>>1329886
commonwealth in general. which is like half the world.
t. australia

all the old houses still have segregated taps. new houses dont. its an old weird thing to do with open reserve tanks in the attic. In australia loads of old houses have water tanks. we have restrictions on water use so people are installing water tanks anyway just to wash their car etc.
>>
>>1329884
>wago clips
I'm actually using Ideal® here in the US. Pretty sure I could hang on it and it wouldn't pop out.

>https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-34-Yellow-In-Sure-4-Port-Connector-100-Pack-30-1034P/202894312
>>
>>1329899
Would you recommend getting in the trade these days, and if so, how?

I'm 30 and been behind a desk being bossed around by princesses and done with it. I have 8 weeks paternity coming up and I don't want to come back to that office and sit in that cubical ever again.
>>
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>>1329634
That would be fun to try on MV105.
Sure.. twist three of those bastards together. Wire nut the size of my coffee cup.

But for house work, those are easy and quite common. I prefer crimped connections tho.
>>
>>1329899
>10A
>short
You sound really clever anon thanks for that insight into the mind of a true genius.
If you want a big messy rats nest of ugly wires then nuts are the way to go. Literally any other connector will give you the flexibility to make a neat and tidy connection that's painless to modify and a pleasure to test.
Anyone using wire nuts, just have a try of anything else before you slate them.
>>
>>1329665
Sums it up pretty much.
>>
>>1329914
It really depends on the market in your area. I'd ask around with the tradesmen in your area. I'm in Minneapolis, and the Union work is pretty good here. Our economy is going strong, and there are tower cranes everywhere. It really depends on if you're willing to make yourself valuable. If you want to come to work and are not willing to take on any responsibility, expect to get laid off when the economy really slows. I've been there, it can suck, you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time when work really slows. Here new construction tends to go in 10 year cycles.

I'm in service work. It never really slows down, especially when you are good at what you do. I have several accounts downtown and I struggle to keep up with the calls from customers, but my work days FLY by. I freaking love it, but I also love challenging technical work.

Get into an elevator Union if you can. Those guys get top pay of all trades.
>>
>>1329889
>>1329667
electricians have no sense of humor
a strange bunch indeed like pipe fitters
>>
>>1329956
Knees give out by the time you're 50 yrs old
Spend rest of life fat and immobile
>>
>>1329941
Wire nuts should be used for outlets, switches, and fixtures to allow the home owner to quickly and easily replace them. Other such quick release connectors can also be used, whatever is code that is. For things like junctions boxes, you can use the connector of your choice that is code for your area. I prefer Butt End Terminals (pic) for junction boxes.
>>
>>1329958
Because wiring incorrectly and having the house burn down with an entire family inside is serious business.
>>
>>1329964
I bet every picture in your house is a mirror
>>
>>1329960
Don't get me wrong, I don't run like a chicken with my head cut off, I just like to work hard. Paperwork, controls wiring, tracing circuits, and figuring out where failures occurred are not physically demanding.
>>
>>1329908
>Wago here in the old continent
>Ideal® in the colonies
> They both seem to serve the same purpose, and do their job well.

Ergo, OP is a dumbass insisting on using wire-nuts instead of either.
>>
>>1329899
Not sure what wagos are rated for, but they're common on 16A circuits. I don't think you can fit any bigger gauge than 2.5mm^2 in them. Above that, a proper junction box should be used anyway.
>>
>>1330016
If it fits, it sits.
.t Wago
Their normaly rated for 24A.
>>
>>1330006
>Ergo, OP is a dumbass insisting on using wire-nuts instead of either.
fuck you for not wanting to start a shitstorm for no reason
>>
>>1330016
42 for the 222
>>
>>1329970
Oddly enough, no mirrors, clocks, photos, posters, or paintings on the walls. I do have lots of tools hung up though.
>>
>>1329941
>You sound really clever anon thanks for that insight into the mind of a true genius.

There's a difference between an overload condition and a dead short. Wagos with heating appliances and continuous heavy loads are no good in my opinion.

The dead short that blew apart the Wago was the result of an apprentice mistaking a feed for a switch leg. That was not an overload condition per the NEC code. It was a fault current. It totally blew apart when we turned on the circuit instead of tripping the breaker. It was actually pretty funny to see. Wire nuts just don't blow up like that. Dissect a Wago vs a wire nut, and you can see why it happens, the tang that grips the conductor basically becomes a fuseable link under fault current conditions.


>Anyone using wire nuts, just have a try of anything else before you slate them.

I think you're imputing wrong motives on my post. I'm not totally against Wagos. I have a few boxes in my van. I just don't use them if my reputation is on the line. I do commercial and industrial electrical, down time can be VERY expensive. Having 20 people standing around because a connection has failed is not cool with my customers. Wagos have their place, and I actually do use them from time to time.
>>
BTW, good job OP, you've hit a hot button. You should consider a job as a daytime talk show host. =)
>>
>>1329667
12,000 square foot. Pics or larp
>>
>>1329672
I wish mine would. Built in the 1800s and been maintained by tweakers only.

What i wouldnt give to come home to a house fire... fml
>>
>>1330083
Good thing they don't have to rely on your word and can just manufacture to the applicable standards in the various countries they export to.
Sounds like your breakers are no good,probably your apprentice made so many mistakes the breakers were worn out from overheating.
>>
>>1330124
It sounds like you are just trying to grasp at low hanging fruit now. The breaker only tripped once before we rectified the problem. You need more experience, breakers tend to trip easier, the more worn out they are. Also educate yourself on fault currents and breaker trip curves. there's much more to breakers than the amp number on the handle.

If he had kept tripping breakers, I'd sit with him and help him learn from his mistakes and understand why it was happening. I truly believe we need to educate our apprentices, I hope you do too, rather than just call them dumb and walk away.
>>
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>wire nuts suck
>Unless you are running 400v and 800amps through a transfer switch then it is ok
>>
>>1330133
but why should it explode in the event of a short?
the breaker should trip instantly, the wire should not have time to heat up
Or do the breakers you use on the other side of the Pond not have an electromagnetic trigger?
>>
>>1329956
I'm a Minnesotan going to school for electrical construction and Maintenance, any tips you can give a young guy like me?
>>
At least use fucking ceramics if you insist on getting paid for twisting two wires together like a six year old.
>>
>>1330189
Go union when you get out if you can. Your pocketbook, healthcare and wife will thank you (especially when making double time if you work long hours) IBEW in Minneapolis and St Paul have cadillac Heath care programs, you appreciate it if something serious happens. If you know someone in the Union, have them write a letter of recommendation for you. It may take some time to get in, but work in some sort of electrical field until you do, so you gain experience.

The apprenticeship is a great thing. Try to to take it seriously and to always be learning on the job. Let your journeyman know that you want to learn, and how to do it the right way. Be productive, and don't stand around when you complete a assigned task, ask "what's next to do?"

Don't piss off co-workers. It may be fun to push buttons, but it can make you difficult to place on jobs because you "don't get along with so-and-so". Learning to work with different personalities takes patience some times. Have as positive attitude and have fun.

The electrical field has a lot of cool niche areas. If you want to have more experience in a certain area, asked to be placed on any job that may have it. Or ask to work with a service driver if the company has them.

Don't forget about the Elevator local. I think they only take guys in every 2 years, but they have the industry on lockdown and have it made. Electrical is half of their job.

Your reaching out right now and asking how shows initiative. Keep that up! Chat up people in the field for advice, most people are willing to help.

Good luck!
>>
>>1330185
It doesn't. He just fucked up and doesn't like those things.

Also to energize circuits like that without checking them means he probably doesn't even have a license. Electricians... It's always some fantastic fake story of pseudo intelligence and superiority because they can regurgitate local codes but not comprehend them.
>>
>>1330185
We do have electromagnetic trip, it really just depends on the equipment and wire connected on both ends of the breaker.

Arc fault warning stickers and calculations are becoming a big thing over here for insurance and safety reasons. Sometimes there's a perfect storm of available short circuit current and the devices in line with it. The devices can't handle the high current and go poof. Not really in issue with residential, but much more so in large commercial and industrial. Look at the fault current available from 3000amp switchgear, and try to short out a breaker in a panel that's only 10 feet from the service, sometimes the device just can't trip fast enough before there's serious damage.

Usually in 3000 amp switchgear, there is no arc flash suit tough enough to prevent you from getting killed. It's the concussion of the blast that kills you, not the fireball or electric shock. Turning off the power to work on things is becoming much more common these days. Thank God for it, I want to go home at the end of the day.
>>
>>1329833
>>1329874
>>
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>>1330306
Superior indeed.
>>
>>1330213
You probably just didn’t tighten the wire nut tight enough...
>>
>>1330204
Thanks so much. Haven't started my actual major program yet; getting my generals out of the way first so I don't know too much about the field. This post really helps though thanks again!
>>
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>>1330133
>breakers tend to trip easier, the more worn out they are

not always.. ever hear of Federal Pacific?
You could weld with the 20amp breakers.. thats part of the reason they were recalled, but of course that problem didnt show up for decades.

>>1330185
wagos have just a thin piece of metal in it, rather than direct conductor to conductor contact. Put twice as much voltage into any circuit and the weakest link isnt going to look too good.. hence a wago melting to pieces and looking like it exploded.
>>
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>>1329728
I don't think "american wire nuts" are to code in Aus. All electricians I know use screw terminals.
> pic related

Some lighting does use a 'push in' type terminal for solid core wire, they generally only fail if you don't push the wire in properly.

I've used both american wire nuts and screw terminals, wire nuts aren't bad, but I prefer screw terminals for their robustness.
>>
>>1329935
this post best post
>>
>>1329901
The stupid thing is Australia didn't have the open hot water systems that Britain did. We just followed the style because that was how things were done.
>>
>>1330419
negatory. I have an old open water system in the roof. it's disconnected and full of rat droppings. generally if it still has the original roof ie tiled roofing then it's going to have the tank. if it has an iron roof then they will have throw the trash out when they redid the roof.
>>
>>1330442
Huh. Guess I never lived in a house old enough.

Lived a couple from the 60s that just have a normal electric storage heater, same type you could buy tomorrow. Lived in one that had the old wood fired heater in the laundry. They all had separate taps though none needed them. Most had been converted to instantaneous with the owner too lazy to ditch the old tank.

How far back do you need to go to get the old style heaters?
>>
>>1329746
>>1329747
why do you americants worry about us so much? We'll be just fine without your thoughts and prayers.
>>
>>1330472
>why do you americants worry about us so much?

Dont let the trolling fool you, its shocking how little we care about other countries.
Yurps are on the same level as africans or the chinese to me. Runner-ups to pay no mind to
>>
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All these anons arguing between push-in and wire nuts, not realizing screw is best.
>>
>>1330604
i think the lesson from that pic is that it's easiest to tap the feeder lines with a screw
>>
>>1329690
my house is 150 years old... rather common around my parts, parents summer house is around 300 years old.
>>
>>1330604
That gave me cancer.
For low wattage circuits Wago is the best, they work fine up to 16A on 230V.
>>
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Do wire nuts have literally any advantage over pic related? Can get a whole pack for $2 at the local hardware store so cost isnt an issue.
>>
>>1330646
they are objectively superior in every way
but other than that, no real benefit
>>
>>1330604
>red in a wire nut with black
>conductor visible
>dead spiders and shit everywhere
This guy actually deserves to die in a fire
>>
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>>1330656
It was a legit question you faggot. If I had a choice, why would I ever want to use a wire nut?
>>
>>1330658
Nevermind that he didn't even loop the wire the right way around the screw...
>>
>>1330674
>not using left handed screws
fag
>>
>>1330395
>twice the voltage
wtf are you even talking about
>>
>>1330646
no they dont
only reason to wire nut is triggering /diy/
>>
>>1330396
These are so objectively superior, why does anyone use anything else?
>>
>>1329675
This. I was genuinely confused about op's post for a minute. Some people don't pigtail them but anyone that knows what they're doing do.
>>
are there any industrial electricians in here or only residental sparkys?
>>
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If you actually use these plastic niggers, kill yourself. Solder and shrink it like you actually had a father to teach you.
>mfw I find my trucks previous owner and let him know what I think of his workmanship
>>
>>1330646
wire nuts are superior because they don't move. push-ins have the chance over time to come loose from micro vibrations from the current.
>>
>>1330718
>push-ins have the chance over time to come loose from micro vibrations from the current.
itt. Things that never happened
push-in type stuff is used in industry in the billions, with usually way higher vibration than residential junction box
>>
>>1330723
Yeah it's fucking stupid. I have seen shit held together by fucking tape for 15-20 years in residential settings, push in stuff is fucking fine.
>>
>>1329723
By Europe you mean Britain, right?
>>
>>1329833
Uubiduu this and this. Just bought a set of wagos and got a bluetooth speaker with them. Got into a hysterical lauhghter fit with the guy selling them when we realized there realy is a speaker bundled.
>>
>>1329634
>europeans doesn't use wire nuts

Is this some new meme?
>>
>>1330646
Literally? Maybe.

Metaphorically, theoretically, and presumably? Abso-fucking-lutely.
>>
>>1330684
sorry you are right twice the amperage and way over the intended voltage
>>
>>1329651
>old house is exactly build to the specific regional weather conditions proven over hundreds of years.
>new houses use reinforced concrete on top of the bricks after every story.
>house is well insulated and the walls even retain heat
>radiator heating is more efficient than your draft furnace (new houses use sub floor heating.
>water is heated by efficient oil furnace aided by sun collectors.
>tap water is cleaner than your polluted river water that's treated with fluoride
>>
>>1329874
kek that hole is for your voltage meter
you just have to pull and twitst to get them out.
>>
>>1329899
sure buddy we have so many company's burning down because the industrial motors are all wired with wagos

how about picking the correct wago for your job
household breakers trigger at 16amps while wagos are rated for 25A
>>
Wireesssd dhrjejrkrdkfjri
>>
>>1329958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gteU4GZEw8o
>>
>>1329665
It applies to 90% of houses in Britain
But I guess we're not Europe for long
>>
>>1331164
Most houses in Britain have insulation and a lot these days don't have water tanks up in the loft any more (and those that do are newer sealed plastic tanks). AC isn't much use when we rarely have hot weather (and when we do we open our windows and use fans) and we have radiators for heating.
>>
>>1329899
>20+ years as electrian

So you are atleast 55? Yep, that puts you right in the "dumbass stuck in his old ways" category.
>>
>>1331126
shiiiiiiit
>>
So what is the "right" way?
>>
>>1331171
Radiators or direct resistive heaters are actually less efficient than heat pumps, which have an efficiency of greater than 100%.
>>
>>1331258
I don't know if that's true or not and I don't really care, it's irrelevant. I was just explaining why we don't have AC. Also AC is much more expensive, no idiot would spend like £500 per room when it would mainly be used for heating.
>>
>>1331267
My point is that buying AC is an investment that will pay itself off within some 5-10 years.
>>
>>1331296
The average UK home spends £550 per year on gas heating. Let's say an average home is two bedroom, a living room, a kitchen, and a bathroom. That's 5 AC units at something like £500 each (some will be cheaper because of smaller rooms, some larger, so call it an average) plus the higher cost of installation and maintenance (good luck convincing the council to foot that bill) and on top of that the additional electricity cost.
>>
>>1331302
500 each is a tad on the expensive side, no? And nobody puts them in their bathroom; its a room that people aren't in for a significant enough period of time, same with the kitchen. I haven't needed any maintenance on my units, and they've been in place for at least 8 years. Though that's not to say that my experience is representative of the average experience.

But in general I was referring to electric heaters, not gas heaters. Typical coefficient of performance values for air conditioning and heat pump systems are in the range 2 to 4, that means 2 to 4 times more efficient than a resistive heater. If your price for electricity (in $/J) is greater than 2 to 4 times the price for gas (in $/J heating), then you should stick to gas.

From what I've heard about England, electricity prices are pretty extreme in the winter, so gas is probably a better option than either resistive or heat pump heating.
>>
>>1331258
>anything
>100% efficient
come on now
>>
>>1331387
>500 each is a tad on the expensive side, no?
I just looked up pricing on Amazon and that was somewhere in the middle.

>And nobody puts them in their bathroom; its a room that people aren't in for a significant enough period of time, same with the kitchen
My bathroom, toilet, and kitchen all have their own radiator. I even have one out in the hallway and one on the upstairs landing.

The bathroom one is nice when the weather is cold (which is often) so you're not getting out of the shower into a cold room. The hall and landing ones are good because it heats the house evenly, otherwise heat from the other rooms would leave to heat up those areas and so the radiators in those rooms would need to be turned up further.

>But in general I was referring to electric heaters, not gas heaters.
Fair enough, but I think most places have gas heaters. Electric is only really used when gas isn't an option such as in flats (a tower block of apartments, not sure what Americans call them). They also usually have storage heaters instead of radiators which use electricity at times when it is cheaper.

The UK is a pretty cold place, if ACs really were the better option for heating we would've cottoned on by now. The only times they're really used is for cooling.
>>
>>1331389
>he bought the pseudobait
HAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>1329961
aren't those just for stranded wire?
>>
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>tfw my house is 85 years old made entirely of mud bricks and this is my electricity meter with two fuses for the entire house
>>
>>1331693
light fixture
>>
>>1331706
central heating
>>
>>1331258
>>1331296
>>1331387
i can only speak for Germany and AC wouldn't be that useful because the period where cooling would be useful would be very short

but to speak of heat-pumps
these get used in many new homes these days
in fact they're are heavily shilled by the EU at 2020 fossil fuel heaters are banned in new constructed homes
these heat pumps will most likely be connected to water radiators or underfloor heating

the concerning thing is that heat-pumps use electricity which is much more expensive here and also is very likely to rise in cost in the future because of the regenerative energy allocate.

most older homes here use heating oil where you have a 1000galon tank in you basement
you are save from price increase for 1 or 2 years if you fill em up but you cant profit from falling prices if your tank is already full
its also a pretty high investment paying 1000€ at once to buy oil for a year.
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The most god awful wire connection on earth. I have seen many of these fail and the shit heads that install them do it in a blind series. Some go room to room and there is no clue where the home run is.
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>>1331779
wrong picture here is the conector....
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>>1331693
>>1331706
>>1331707
I lived in a ~100 year old 3 bedroom house that had really poor original wiring with a similar fusebox.
It was piped for fucking gas lighting, there were gas lights in every single room. There was a segregated hallway that led to the front door, the stairs, and the dining room with a big ass fireplace.
There was a fucking maids quarters room upstairs which was the size of 2 master bedrooms combined.

Was a really really odd house, especially since it wasnt taken care of over the years
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>>1331787
my house was my greatgrandfather's bakery once and they converted it into a house, it's one big living room/kitchen, two bedrooms and a bathroom
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>>1331713
>the regenerative energy allocate
Sucks that Germany is building a bunch of coal plants because their solar sucks ass, eh? Meanwhile, France is selling their nuclear power left right and centre.
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>>1331693
>>1331706
>>1331707
What shithole country is this
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>>1331707
>central heating
Not running a Bitcoin mining rack for heat. :-/
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>>1331945
>dreaming of bunkerbro
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>>1331945
Itll set the wiring in his walls on fire
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>>1331933
srb
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>>1329722
>My anecdotal shit is the word of God almighty who guards over all Americans
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>>1330646
I'm old and just discovered these miracles. Fucking technology.
I use them for grounds and lighting circuits but not outlets because of USA's inferior 120v system makes our space heaters and portable ovens Double Dangerous.
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>>1329675
depends, ideal twisters don't require it
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>>1329899
103 are faggots, i'm proud to be non union
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Any electrician worth anything above a handyman will use his linesmans to twist the connection before securing the nut. I've fixed many burnt up wire nuts that weren't twisted up well. I use the push in connectors when they come with our light cans, but not the biggest fan of them. They operate in a similar manner to back stabbing devices, which is a shit method. The lever nuts seem a bit extra....over complicating a good wirenut connection. Soldered joints....running into those SOBS working in old knob and tube houses makes troubleshooting a fucking nightmare. Can't open up a joint and trace down a dead short easily. If you cut splicing becomes a nightmare because there isn't room in some of the old ass boxes. Those old timers squeezed every cubic inch possible out of some of them and there isn't room for a big red, several wires, and a device. If you are lucky there is enough wire to cut the splice off and recreate your own.
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>>1332943
Me too. I am a proud non-union. I was in a Union for 7.5 years at Kroger. Saw how they operate, the propaganda machine, my money paying them to do nothing, etc. Unions are a joke. They might have been necessary many decades ago but now....it'd have to be a very unique situation before I ever became a member of one again.
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>>1330604
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>>1333092
>>1332943
>being proud to not have a group of people work hard for better working conditions and wages, while being at the mercy of those who have more money than you

I'm guessing you guys weren't working during the 08 recession were you?
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>>1329634
Why is there no definitive guide on what wire nut to use based on the number and gauge of wire? Packages always like min/max of only 2 or 3 wires of a specific size, but what if I want to know what nut to use for 4 wires all of 14 gauge, not just 2 wires?
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>>1333139
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector#Color_code
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>>1333145
Yeah see this is exactly the problem with all of these charts. They only list min/max for a couple of conductors. How would I read this if I have, for example, all 14 gauge wire, and I want to connect 4 conductors?
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>>1333151
You'd go with red. The minimum is 2x 14AWG so you're above that and you're below the maximum of 2x 10AWG + 2x 12AWG.
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>>1333128
Look at car manufacturing in Australia. The unions decided that the workers building the cars should get paid more, and got their wages pushed up. Holden have since stopped building cars in Australia. It's the same as the minimum wage problem: low pay is better than no job.
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>>1333092
Did your union at Kroger have some sort of seniority ranking?

In my opinion, seniority can be very bad for a unions health. Lazy assholes take advantage of it, and don't work knowing they have seniority protection.

My local does not have seniority. You don't work, you get laid off. Period.

Our local tires hard to screen out unproductive workers BEFORE we let them in by working under a "Summer Helper" or trial program. Employers give feedback on each employee. If they don't rate well, they don't get in.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience at Kroger. Did you try to address the problem while you were there?
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>>1333177
> low pay is better than no job.

IE suck the dick of the rich
Of course thats a losing battle because inflation will never stop, and everyone with low wages will be poorer and the wage gap will increase, while the poorer will put less money into buying products which outsources more and the cycle continues.

We are on a crash course and only drastic changes will fix anything, just wait till china increases wages (its already happening) and automation becomes more viable domestically.

We are in the in between period before the fall.
Its up to you to have job security and higher wages, or have some sort of horse shit principles in a losing game.
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>>1333177
You unscrupulous CockSucker. Be a Slave, Bitch.
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>>1330396
I recently had to replace every connection in my house wiring. went to work out why the breakers never tripped and found three circuits bridged by a retarded electrician in a lighting fixture. went through replacing every soldered or just twisted and wrapped in electrical tape join with screw terminals.
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>>1330712
houses dont tend to rapidly accelerate and have an engine 1/3 of its total mass vibrating the wires constantly. it's also not common to run your house through a puddle or for rain to get into your electrical work. so yeah, solder and water proofing terminals on a 12v system is a bit different to house wiring.

>>1329899
WAGO terminals are hard to find above 10A so that's probably why you shouldnt use them for circuits above 10A. upwards of that they're fugging expensive.

>>1330040
>24A
that's a really weird value for electrical wiring. considering breakers come in 8, 10, 16,20, 32A steps.
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>>1330133
>apprentice miswired
he really shouldnt be letting his apprentice do any work if this happens. he should be given the job of mapping the entire circuit and given problems sheets, sitting the day out. if you're only realising he's fucking shit up when a breaker trips then you're missing every circuit he's fucking up and it doesnt trip.

>>1330213
only time what you're describing has happenned to me is when it wasnt a current problem but connecting a terminal LIVE with loads. you get an impressive arc that can make shit explode. dont work live.
t. not a licenced electrician

>>1330395
>twice the voltage
all low voltage equipment is rated for 1000V. doesnt matter if you're 110V or 220/230/240V. the insulation can survive 1000V

>>1330684
>breakers are rated up to 3kV, 6kV, 10kV
>doesnt understand how voltage can spike

>>1333177
actually holden dropped in quality and was massively subsidised by government orders ie. police vehicles, government vehicles. but now there are only two tiers of government transport vehicles being purchased. cheap and BMW for your life matters. holden just couldnt compete with the safety of a luxury BMW or the price of a getz.

parts were all being manufactured overseas, imported and assembled in australia. it didnt make sense to have the parts factories 6000km away from the assembly plant.
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>>1333238
>IE suck the dick of the rich
Jobs should always be subject to the same rules of supply and demand that govern the rest of the marketplace. If somebody is willing to work less than you, there's no reason not to give them the job instead, which works for unskilled jobs. But for skilled jobs, I think our culture needs a bit of a shift towards the normalisation of pay negotiation. Either way what you get paid is up to you, don't like it walk out. If the minimum wage gets pushed up then the business will just end up outsourcing its work to Asia where someone is willing to work for a lower price. There are some businesses where you can't make a profit by paying everyone $15 an hour.

>>1333281
Commodores were designed and built in Aus. In general it was advantageous to assemble their cars locally because of the inordinate import tariffs if they were to be manufactured offshore, but the high wages made even that economically unviable.
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>>1333313
>work less than you
*work FOR less than you
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>>1333281
>breakers are rated up to 3kV, 6kV, 10kV
thats breaking capacity in kA
has to do with design of the arc chamber
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>>1333275
>WAGO terminals are hard to find above 10A
that's called 'being retarded'
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>>1333275
>you shouldnt use (wagos) them for circuits above 10A

kek every house here is build with 16A breakers
all wired with 24A rated wagos.
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>>1332364
You're god damned right, cheeseater
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>>1333128
yes i was working in 08, i depend on my own skills instead of others for my own job security. was a whole shit ton of dudes on the bench begging to come work with us, we laughed at them. union dudes have shitty work ethic and they're always protecting the shittiest workers and filling the pockets of the pinky ring thugs. congrats on supporting hillary with your dues though.
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>>1333836
So you pretty much got lucky while a ton of your peers (who obviously do the same "depending on my own skills for work" guys) were out of work, yet you watched all the union guys sit tidy and not even break a sweat?

Sounds about right
This whole idea of "my work ethic and my skills will keep me with a job" is a fucking farce, everyone knows that all other sorts of stupid and non related factors go into getting a contract or not. Skill and work ethic are not a factor at all.

>congrats on supporting hillary with your dues though.

Enjoy living like you are poor as fuck miser, saving all of your money knowing that slow times are coming and youll be going weeks without work.
Muh hillary and muh principles isnt enough to make me jump out of a union, making my work life and subsequent stress in my regular life 100 times worse.

Ill gladly pay to protect the few shitty lazy workers I deal with to make my job better. Anyone who wouldnt is a retard
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>>1333836
Also just to let you know, I am Teamsters 618 and they literally send me a bi monthly magazine full of garbage.

When election time comes around they actually straight up tell us to vote for Dems (even reminds us of state elections)

Does that annoy you?
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>>1333861
luck had nothing to do with it. hard work and skill (not union traits of course) will keep you working for a long time. save my money for weeks with no work? hasn't happened in the 17 years i've been in the trade. don't know a single union guy around here that can say the same. i can introduce you to plenty who took a nap on their lift for 8 hours a night in the tunnel project - pure taxpayer rape.

teamsters huh - don't get dirty before 9:30, nothing new after 2

and go ahead and vote against your best interest, long as the leadership fills their pockets. how long before illegals will be allowed to get licensed in the trades? union leaders pushing for that.
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>>1333866
>luck had nothing to do with it. hard work and skill (not union traits of course) will keep you working for a long time

We know this is what people tell themselves, was every single person who was laid off in 08 a lazy unskilled fuck?

>and go ahead and vote against your best interest
But I didnt vote for Trump
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>>1333866
>how long before illegals will be allowed to get licensed in the trades?

Illegals dont bother me, they dont threaten my job like you
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>>1333874
of course not, would you like to talk ratios?

>didn't vote for Trump
yet he won, and wouldn't you know - construction is booming, economy is doing great. you're welcome.
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>>1333877
>construction is booming, economy is doing great. you're welcome.

Yeah, trends that take years to happen and dont flip a switch overnight
You really are stupid arent you
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>>1333879
consumer confidence does flip a switch, happens frequently after elections. i'm sorry your union leadership didn't inform you of this.
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>>1333876
No. They just show up as 'contractors' and drop the wage for your industry to $15 with no benefits.

Doesn't matter that they suck and can't do the job. Bosses are going to give it to them first.

b-b-but my union. My liceneses, my--
No. They are going to fuck you. Stop letting the mono-party fuck you in the ass.
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>>1333887
This is LITERALLY why the union exists and we pay our dues
We get union contracts, you know every big meaningful contract, and these illegals that try to undercut you pick up the scraps

The non-union workers are the only ones that get fucked.

Join us or continue living on the edge of unemployment.
Is it ideal?
Nope, but its reality and its why I dont take people like >>1333882 seriously at all.

The anti-union sentiment is stupid and only goes to benefit those wanting cheap unskilled labor
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Teamsters - hide and seek for a grand a week
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>>1333896
At least I dont have to hide and seek from illegal immigrants to feed my family
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>>1333887
>No. They just show up as 'contractors' and drop the wage for your industry to $15 with no benefits.

Hey now
>luck had nothing to do with it. hard work and skill (not union traits of course) will keep you working for a long time

Why do you care about unskilled mexicans? Just work hard and youll be fine
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>>1330712
Soldering AC electrical connections is against code.
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>>1333897
Nor do I, unless 103 gets their way. Do you not care about your union brothers?
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>>1333892
I am in the telco union.

Among the many things killing the industry is that cable companies aren't union, so they can hire illegals by the boatload. And our own company can hire as many contractors as they want, really. The average wage for a low-voltage lineman is $15 an hour now, instead of $30. They work for literally half of what union does, and really their work is 90% as good, if not better, because really most of the shits left in the company are just milking it and aren't interested in work.

>>1333900
Even though my work is better than contractors, (or most other employees) Bosses usually don't care about repeats or actual repair work being done. They just want tickets closed out. If that means a repeat in two days because the guy literally didn't even do anything, or a failed install, or... it's all just typical for both the telco and cable industry.

Union has done nothing to earn its keep either.
They have helped me with a medical dispute, a little.

They didn't care that they wouldn't backfill 7 positions for two years around here. Now we've lost most of the customers those techs ever served. I had to work 60 hours a week for those two years and couldn't do anything to get relief because seniority and it's my turn to be shit on.

Oh. Then when there was the real fuckup of a tech. Literally did nothing. THOUSANDS of customers were out of service because he wouldn't get off his ass to actually FIX fucking ANYTHING. There were 20+ T1s serving remotes around the county that would bounce up and down. This generated trouble tickets for him to milk. He milked them to 130k/year, but NEVER even fixed the shit.

Then he got caught by three managers DUI because he pulled into the yard slurring his speech after popping a bunch of pills.

The union saved THAT FUCKERS JOB. EVERYONE he worked with was dancing a fucking jig that the shitstain was gone. But no. The union got the piece of shit his job back,
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>>1333917
And because they got his job back?

The cable company finally got off its ass and offered phones, and EVERYONE hates us because their fucking phones don't work because shitstain can't fix the carriers.

So it went from a 3 tech town to a 0 tech town. If there ever is a trouble ticket there it's dispatched out of the next town over. Good job, union.
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>>1329634
you'll have to untwist the whole thing if you're going to replace/add one wire.hard/impossible to use in tight spaces
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>>1333919
...appreciated this story, Anon. It's looking fairly bad for the trades in the US. That is to say, it's looking bad for the US, in the long run.
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>>1335397
Its not looking good for ANYBODY in the US in the long run, not just trades. Its a sinking ship
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>>1333128
I was certainly working during those recession years. It is/was a job that is in high demand. Even when the economy tanks, people still need groceries.

>Implying unions work for the benefit of the workers and not their own pocketbooks.
>Implying they give 2 shits about any members

I brought a legitimate complaint to the rep one time that I now know was a legitimate grieveance. He said it wasn't worth the time and it would only put a target on my back. The TL;DR was he lied about a pay increase for a different position, lost out on $3/hr so instead of $9.50 as agreed I ended up with $6.40.

>>1333231

Yeah they were big on seniority. Kept the laziest pieces of shits. All the good workers got tired of being shit on so they found a better job. We had one old guy who was a vindictive asshole-if you didn't kiss his ass when everyone turned in their vacation sheets for the year he would look up your weeks and change his weeks, outrank you and you'd have to reschedule. Never was on the brunt end of that, but seen him do it.

We had one disgusting worker who would go to the bathroom with disposable gloves on and come back out with them on still, union saved her job from countless right ups. Enjoy your salad bar experience.

We'd get propaganda weekly about record sales, how awesome we are doing, etc. Contract "negotiations" came around the reps suddenly would appear like cockroaches. We all collectively demanded pay increases. Kroger would paint a different picture, sales weren't as good as hoped, etc (complete reversal). The union would take the pussy approach and back Krogers story. Despite everyone's wishes no strike. When negotiations drag on they promise back pay verbatim. Each time they 180'd and the people like myself who were topped out got fucked when they chose to do a lump sum, last time a few months before I left they shorted me out of around half a grand. Measly raise over several years was our "win".
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>>1335907
>talking about a grocery store job as if its relevant to a real union in a real trade

Kill yourself
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I've literally never seen a wire nut fail, and the only complication is if you use shitty or old wires and they rip when you screw them in (or you use the wrong size). Not a problem, strip the wires, grab a new nut: five cents and 10 seconds, problem solved. Not some proprietary union kickback and patent cucked thing which actually Virgin forms a new shitty wire versus Chad holds the conductors in place. Literally the only thing better could be using a lead-based solder or welding the wires. I've seen quick-connectors fail, though I believe half were designed to act as fuses, they were in appliances.

Was it chronic retardation or some Moishe Shekelstien that changed policy?
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>>1329695
Soviet Russia is not EU.
In EU we use Wago.
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>>1333275
>WAGO terminals are hard to find above 10A so that's probably why you shouldnt use them for circuits above 10A. upwards of that they're fugging expensive.
They are like 20A... But for 110V I guess 20A is nothing.
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>>1329636
Wire nuts are better, than simple wire twist.
But soldering twist (or crimping) is better.
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>>1330311
>>1330306
Yes, 222 were better, than new ones.
In newer fucking lever is fragile and requires too much force to open.
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>>1335406
thank god. cant w8 for americans to go extinct
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>>1335964
soldering wires
i really hope you're not doing actual electrical work
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>>1336196

Are you and the others just talking about power wiring, like in my house? Because things like pic related which is rated 250 VAC and 10 amps has to be soldered. Solder is ok for that, correct?
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>>1336198
you could use these, I guess?
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>>1335964
>shorten the 3 cm wire coming out of the wall even further
yeah, no thanks
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>>1336196
>soldering wires
>i really hope you're not doing actual electrical work
Solder and tape is still NEC, but most inspectors frown on it because it's hard to inspect.
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>>1329960
Complete bullshit. I know of 5 +60 yr old guys who took care of their body (didnt smoke or drink excessively) and still work with their bags on. One of them is on my jobsite right now. Its called taking care of your body and working smart.

The ones who smoke and get drunk out of their minds every night are the ones who dont last.

t. Framing Carpenter
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>>1336963
this.
bricklayers earn more than GPs. but a teachers sole function as a matter of the way their guilds are set up is to feed universities. the schools rank and apparent quality goes up if you make more doctors. it goes down if you produce more bricklayers. a bachelors degree is a science field like chemistry or biology is completely useless. a business degree is similarly useless unless you have family contacts to secure you a high paying job before you graduate. I know a lot of MBA types who just work in call centres. but teachers encourage more students to go to university not because it's in their students best interest but because it's in their best interest.

in australia the average age of a bricklayer is 45.

>http://www.baka.com.au/national/blow-to-brickies-best-laid-retirement-plans-20090526-bm42.html
>ONLY earns $300 a day doing light work
>oh fug im so poor
>too poor to retire he says, cant claim the pension
>40 years of laying bricks with young brickies easily earning 200k/year laying 800 bricks a day
>no money left
one wonders why he managed to not save a fucking penny

there are loads of fake stories regarding bricklayers like this. these are the kinds you're shown by career counsellors. by selfish teachers who only want their wages to go up slightly. but just like any well paying job, you actually need to consistently work hard and not blow every cent you earn on a fleet of luxury pleasure craft and other liabilities if you dont want to retire poor.

you can live quite comfortably with those kinds of wages after retiring early by choice. even doing light work, you're still earning as much as a doctor.

yes its physically hard on you to lay bricks. but young doctors work 80 hour weeks during their internships and training period. the rich doctors you see kept working those double work weeks.




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