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### /g/ternet - Seriously get on the IRC and start building edition ###

Mark yourself on the map with your contact info (can be a cock.li throwaway if you don't want to dox yourself)
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=2787145

IRC (SSL): irc.jollo.org:9999 #gternet
Wiki: http://mesh.gentoo.today
Git: git dot jollo dot org/gternet
Last thread: >>63663636

What is /g/ternet?
/g/ternet would be our own decentralized p2p network running on our own infrastructure, totally disconnected from the clearnet.
It will be a combination of DIY meshnets on a city wide basis, and a platform for interconnecting these city wide meshnets over p2p openvpn bridges and high powered wireless dishes for City to City relays.
The Inter-Meshnet part of the project will allow any existing DIY meshnets to join our network by adding a bridge node or a city to city relay.

-The short term goal is to have a few anons set up their own local meshnet and link them together using the bridges as a proof of concept.
-A long term goal is gain a large enough user density that we can disable the brige nodes and have our own decentralized network idependent of the internet.

Currently for the local and city wide meshnets we're going to use batman-adv. For the p2p internet bridges we are going to use a trust based system of key exchanges, mostly done by direct contact between node operators
The network will use IPv6 throughout, we have an issue on our git that you can vote on (after registering) to determine the address space we will use. On git you will find scripts to help automatically deploy openvpn intermesh bridges, and batman meshnets.

This project is almost two weeks old, so we need all the expertise and help we can get.
Every contribution is valuable!
Gather a group of friends and join the IRC and wiki.
>>
>>63711636
Currently under development:
- A tool called geternet-cli that will tie all the deployment scripts together into one place. (knots)
- A hash based system to assign addresses across a decentralized network (cat is looking for more input on this; if you have any comments/questions direct them towards him in irc).
- A simple GUI for those inexperienced with the linux command line.

To Do:
- decide on hardware standards for City to City relays
- create resources for newbies on the wiki
- gather more people
- start building internet bridges for the intermesh connections (Linux Sysadmin tier)
- start designing diy kits for meshnet end users (Should be newbie-midlevel friendly tier)
- look into croundfunding options for purchasing city to city relay backbone equipment (Richfag tier)

Things NOT To Do:
- Talk about logos
- Talk about names
>>
Just a reminder- once you have access to the gitlab project you don't need access on a repo basis
>>
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Network architecture diagram
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output of:

sudo batctl o

after using mesh setup script on 3 devices
>>
>>63711729
whoops wrong one, i dont seem to have the one from the previous thread saved
all well you get the idea
>>
>>63711636
Anyone wanna give a newbie the rundown of what we got going so far?
We using VPN? How secure is this? Etc?
>>
>>63711719
what about laying wires or hijacking some existing infrastructure?
>>
>>63711760
Basically you set up your distribution point using a BATMAN script that was put up on the gitlab site, run the network distribution software, and throw on an AP to the network.

The said server uses a OpenVPN to join the current mesh network infrastructure.

Then throw yourself on the map that is in the wiki, hangout in the IRC with us and give your input on how internet v2 should be made.

Things being decided:

1. DNS servers - centralized or distributed hashtables?
1. How do we make it easy for mainstream to get involved?
1. how do we keep a single admin from poluting the network? An aged version of this is comcast or Verizon in the US (gone from a single businessman to a large single ownership).
>>
Hey everyone!

We are making a lot of progress very quickly, and its getting more exciting every day. The deeper we get, the more we seem to be onto something really cool. Here are some updates for tonight from my end so far:

the progress on gternet-cli is going much faster than I expected. I am going to open it for testing by all of you now. Spin up your box and switch to the root user and make sure you are in the /root directory
 mkdir git 
apt update && apt upgrade -y
apt install -y git
git clone https://git.jollo.org/gternet/software/gternet-cli.git
cd gternet-cli
**use this command to deploy an Openvpn p2p Intermesh node**
./gternet-cli deploy netbridge
**use this command to deploy batman on any mesh device**
./gternet-cli deploy mesh


All of this will be up on the wiki at some point soon
I will also begin reviewing and accepting merge requests.
>>
>>63711976
Yeah man, that's great and all...but I don't want you going to jail over wrecking some corporate lawfirms fiber lines.
>>
Can someone tell me how these inter city links work? 5ghz line of sight things?
What's the speed on this thing?
So total speed = speed of this los thing / no of people interconnecting between the cities? Won't that get slow real soon?
>>
>>63712166
Latency would improve as more nodes are available to connect to, there wouldn't be just a single node between cities, but as many as possible.
>>
>>63711988
New to programming
When do you use C vs shell files?
>>
>>63711988
Don't run this on a computer with sensitive info
>>
>>63711977
I know i'm not in the IRC yet but i feel compelled to answer questions 1 nd 3 with one word: Decentralized. Throughout history, centraization has led to lots of strife. By decentralising we make it hard for any 1 person to take control of the entire system.

As for making it mainstream, that jsut requires offering an alternative wehn whit hits the fan with unfair network operations and charges. If we decentralize the system, we can go door o door and offer soon-to-be customers the alternative and (possibly) free /g/ternet, which they will take when it comes cheaper and provides more then paying 100$ for 10mbps. The problem with selling it is we could end up ike verison down the road (and fuck that) so the real question now is how we should model our small global startups bussiness wise to ensure profit so we can continue to spread it, while avoiding the inevitable corruption that comes with that.
Part of this corperate spread scheme involves advertising up the wazoo and bribing local politicians (politics, amirite?). As far as i am aware it is the only tried and true method to get this to the masses.

As for distribution of the product, we will need to figure how to connect this to the net while it's fragmented?

More questions:
- How fast is this net compared to the oldnet?
- Is it scalable (as in, with increasing users, how will it handle the load)?
- How does it distribute data?
- How do we plan on expanding?
- When the expansion inevitably leads to trouble with corporate behemoths (like verizon or telus) gettign involved, how will we be able to combat their mafia-like aggressive corporate tactics?
- Is the network centralized?
- How would we go about profiting from a decentralized network? Normies are easy to profit off of regardless so i'm sure we can keep decentralized and still make some sweet, sweet ca$h.
- etc?
>>
>>63712376
all the code is available in the repository for you to review. It is open source af.
>>
>>63711636
the map is a bit worrying, won't that oust our location and make us easy targets? Would it be fine if a gave the general postal code (like V5B 2A2 for example)?
>>
>>63712414
It looks like most people are just putting in cities, which is OK
>>
>>63712376
oldnet shill
>>
>>63712450
uhhh opening a vpn in my SOHO network would open up my LAN to you, no? That doesnt seem smart
>>
>>63712426
Yeah that seems pretty good.
>>
>>63712518
So open scripts/p2p_deploy_node.sh
Go down to the main function near the bottom.
Comment out the call to set_iptables.
There. You can run the scrip without forcing the placeholder iptabes rules.
I will modofy gternet-cli to allow being more configurable tomorrow.
Thanks for the input!
>>
>>63711988
>>63712532
>>63712548
I also should have more explicitly stated in my post that this is DEV only and is intended to be run on a fresh install, new vm instance, or new raspberri pi
>>
>>63712587
just checked the map again.
Why and how in the fuck is there a NoKo (North Korean) in our network? WTF?

Is it jsut a fun-poster or is this real?
>>
>>63712673
I created over 20 entries
Go figure
>>
>>63712687
What a masterful troll
>>
b-b-bumpaaaaaaRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~
>>
Byampuruuuu~
>>
This seems vulnerable to attack. How exactly would you boot some wiseguy connecting to multiple points in the mesh and conducting a DDOS?
>>
So how do I host a service on this? Are there domains I can get?
>>
Piratebox can mesh, what about that?
>>
>>63713651
IRC appears to be trying to address this from what i can understand.
>>63713757
That dude cat on IRC is trying tobdo some shit woth hashes to get domain names.

From what i can tell as an IRC lurker, seems that they are still trying to proof of concept the netowk. At least thats what knots keeps saying. They have madeba shitload of progress for the two week mark, but there is still a ways to go before we can send memes to eachother via gternet.
Ill keep purking and once its noob friendly ill try and use the gui thing or something.
>>
>>63713757
right now OpenNIC seems like best bet for dns
>>
bump
>>
>>63713757
>>63713921
Namecoin
>>
Unlike netrunner this general existed for 2 weeks
Rip, you will be missed next week. NOT!
>>
>>63714851
i guess you would rather shill jew products than try to create your own
>>
>people with almost zero knowledge about networking, data transmission, or even simple programming discuss logo and name of their future replacement of one of the most intricate and hard network (internet) the tread.
>>
>people with almost zero knowledge about networking, data transmission, or even simple programming skills whatsoever discuss logo and name of their future replacement of one of the most intricate and hard network (internet) the tread.
>>
>>63714851
>>63715342
>>63715404
can you start making sense and contributing, or just gtfo
>>
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Is this the appropriate topology for a network segment?
>>
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>>63711641
What do you think about the logo I made? I took the liberty to give it a name also
>>
>>63716368
I can't even fucking........
I'm just glad you didn't name it localhost you fuckhead
>>
>>63711719
>>63711729
>>63711636
Is there some kind of new software being developed? Orrrr is this just a theoretical thing?
>>
>keknet
It's happening!
>>
>>63716749
See
>>63711641
>>
Bumpo
>>
>>63714851
>>63715342
>>63715404
>>63716368
The oldnet shills are here
>>
Morning /g/

Im tearing down gternet-cli right now to have some improvments i described last night
>63712548

Everyone should hold off on using >63711988 until i can commit gternet-cli alpha v0.2 later today.
>>
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>>63711641
This might be a retarded idea, but would a block chain IP distribution system work for decentralized IPs? I'm not super familiar with block chains past the absolute basics so I'm not sure if this would work.
>>
I've mostly been using it since this started so I figure I should update everyone on my progress.

Met with a local maker space and got them onboard. I couldn't get them onboard with the p2p option, they only want physical links

Looked into 900mhz equipment. It look promising, better range. However it's roughly 2x the price of 2.4ghz equipment.

Started work on a website last night. The goal being for users to add themselves to the map and have it automatically find the closest node, calculate line of sight, and make hardware suggestions.

>Inb4 Reddit spacing
It's call formating things so that they are easy to read.
>>
It=irc
Phone posting from work.
>>
>>63716368
this new Tamagotchi version even have infraorange
>>
>>63712414
>The goal being for users to add themselves to the map and have it automatically find the closest node
This is cool, but I guess most anons wouldn't want to pinpoint their precise location, see
>>63712414
>>63712426
but probably it would work if you shill it in real life, placing it on your city free announcement boards, school halls, mc donald's bathroom, car windshields etc..
>>
>>63718561
Exactly. We should all start trying to spread it locally as much as we can
I went into NYC last saturday and met with one of the dudes involved in a meshnet project in brooklyn. They have a functioning mesh that covers around 10 city blocks right now. They are using it for secure messaging and emergency alerts. He said that once we have a network setup then he will push them to add a p2p bridge or two.
I also spoke with my boss at the Uni i nix admin at, he thought it was a super cool project and will try to get the university to donate any older wireless equipment they were going to send for recycling anyway. Im looking at potentially getting up to 50 or 60 high powered cisco APs to fuck with and potentially use to prototype a more solid city wide network here in my home town
>>
>>63718561
>>63718643
I just found this https://airlink.ubnt.com/#/ptp
Not as user friendly and only for ubiquiti products, but a good stand in for now
>>
>>63718428
Also I was learned from the maker people that Batman sucks for directional links. So what they suggested doing was setting the it up as a normal bridge and then have that feed into a mesh node. It's not a huge deal because you would have to coordinate to set up a directional link anyway.
>>
>>63718743
LOL you people just now found this?

Everyone should use this tool and find out just how retarded they are.
Protip: the literal earth itself will be in your way for most cases past 40 miles.
And I'd recommend that you don't exceed 15 miles with 5ghz.
>>
>>6371883
5ghz sucks in all cases anyway
>>
>>63718831
>Protip: the literal earth itself will be in your way for most cases past 40 miles.

this has been discussed at length in irc
>>
>>63718892
Tbh I don't even know how long this project has been going for, but I've been using ubiquiti gear for a couple of years, and use airlink all the time
>>
>>63718959
what kind of equipment are you using ? How much distance does it cover ? Are you in good los or are there obstacles, if so, what kind of (vegetation, houses, buildings..) ?
>>
>>63718959
We've only been going for about 2 weeks so there's plenty you could contribute. Hop into irc and say hi!
>>
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>>63711636
Reminder that this could exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXTEWFb_6w4
>>
>>63719101
Most of my experience comes from working for a wisp. They used rocket M5 international radios for most links under 5 miles. They also used some nanobeam radios for short sub 500m links or for mile links with no interference.
For long links or for high interference, we used rocket m365 radios, but those now have to be registered.
The longest link is believed was 14 miles, and it wasn't very reliable.
You absolutely must have LOS. Not only that, you need to have clearance for your fresnel zone radius.
You can maybe have some trees covering up to half of each fresnel zone, but the line of sight must be completely free of obstruction at all times.

I'm personally in the process of building a link between my house on a ranch and a town. It's going to have a 32Km link at the longest, but it's going up 1200ft in elevation. It looks good on paper, but it's damn long.

>>63719105
I may, but I think my IRC client was on a server that died a while ago.
>>
>>63719420
You're exactly what this project needs. We have no hardware guys atm
>>
>>63711636
Decentralized systems will always be toys.
>>
Do you have any ideas for a mascot? Or a logo? I've got a friend who draws real good.
>>
>>63719563
I want to call it "the people's internet of /g/" just to put the /pol/s in a fluff
>>
>>63719563
Read
>>63711641
>>
>>63719537

thank you for your invaluable input
>>
You'd be better off turning cellphones into P2P nodes by using the bands that are unused in America meant for overseas to communicate with each other. Trying to setup a "mesh network" across the country using cheap wireless 2.4 and 5GHz is going to be futile and slower than the slowest satellite internet.
>>
>>63719657
Mesh is local my friend, there's a wired backbone
>>
>>63719657
>turning cellphones into P2P nodes
That's what the MEGA guy is planning to do. I think he said in ~5 years smartphones will be powerful enough to make it happen.
>>
>>63719667
Oh really, you're going to run a wired backbone across the country? With your neetbux?
>>
hey knots, you asked about the Pringles antenna in IRC.
http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/has.html
>>
>>63719657
That's illegal
>>
>>63719635
I wasnt being sarcastic. She draws really good
>>
>>63719687
Phones are powerful enough to do it now. The issue is with many phones being locked down, deployment is nearly impossible
>>
>>63719526
Right but the problem I'm seeing is that you may be able to cover most of a city with enough nodes, but that's about it. I've never done a mesh net, but I've got a few ideas for a personal project using one. I just can't see city to city connections at minimum though unless you have a geographic advantage. There's just no way to stay off the www.
Yall need a satellite.
>>
>>63719693
There are existing enthusiast fiber systems out there. Not to mention that we're using the internet as a backbone until we can get peered with other alternets
>>
>>63719722
Not if you're using 1850-1990 Mhz band
>>
>>63719693
mon ami , to expand on my previous comment,
We will lease the existing backbone
Access to the backbone will be completely decentralized with an ICO
The ICO proceeds will pay the lease
We had an anon three threads ago who said his cousin knew someone in OneWeb. So we could launch a satellite if this takes off.
>>
>>63719828
lmao launching a satellite costs millions and months to plan. Knowing a guy who works there doesn't equate to free satellite
>>
>>63719837
So OneWeb already has launch contracts for network satellites with ULA and Blue Origin. We just need to buy a couple. The ICO will fund the costs.
We have to start planning big league. Humans will be on Mars in a decade, so we can get another satellite to connect to Mars.
My cousin works for AT&T so I'll ask him more about that
The best part? Even if it spans planets it will still be net neutral. That's the power of decentralization!
>>
>>63719790
>alt
Don't use that word please, makes us associate with alt right
>>
>>63719743
How many satellites? I could fund one. I have lots of bitcoins from 2012
>>
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>>63711636
so basically you are just making a hyperboria ripoff except it has a cool logo and is affiliated with /g/ so the risk of law intervention grows
just why?
>>
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>>63719970
One should do all of north America.

Alternatively, we can do this for way less money
That is a balloon
>>
>>63719743
Nobody said it would be easy. Obviously we are not going to get to another city in one hop. It's going to take major coordination and a good bit of luck if it happens at all. There is a reason there has never been a city to city mesh connection in the US. I think this is the greatest thing we could hope to achieve.
>>
>>63719894
Like this project needs optimists and all, but god damn.
>>
>>63719725
You can have her draw a crescent moon or a moon man look alike.
>>
>>63720018
I approve the balloon.
This also looks cool.
>>63719318
>>
>>63720095
Oops wrong thread
>>
So what's wrong with a point to point microwave link? Line of sight i guess.
might work in flat cities. or if someone lives on high elevation.
The microwave link is also affected by rain.
>>
Just a quick survey -
How much are willing to spend on this personally?
>>
>>63720246
depends, I won't be spending much right now because I couldn't contribute that much because
>talking to other people
>>
>>63720224
There is nothing wrong with it. It's just expensive.
>>
>>63720287
I'm not taking crowd sourcing. I'm asking how much will you spend on yourself
>>
>>63720246
$300
>>
>>63720337
I'd say ~150
>>
>>63720246
No more than $150 CAD.
>>
>>63720246
I would pay for my equipment to connect.
>>
>>63719925
:P alternet has been an established term for a number of years, but I do see where you're coming from
>>
>>63719828
>>63719894

This shit is why I want to tripfag
>>
>>63720246

I can see myself spending upwards of $1000 and 5-6 hours a day over the next year if building continues. The only real factor that holds me back is deeper technical knowledge but I'm picking that up as I go.
>>
>>63720455
Pretty much this. This whole thing is momentum.
>>
>>63714851
1 MB High Speed™ data has been deposited into your Verizon account
>>
>>63719828
>>63719894
OneWeb isn't what you're looking for.
1. It still heavily relies on ground segment, it's not an autonomous space network
2. SpaceX network doesn't, but they still need to license their shit in every country they intend to work at, to allocate frequencies/comply with censorship, make some profit etc
>we could launch a satellite
See 2. above, also a simple 1U cubesat costs about $100-150k in development + launching and the same in radio testing/certification, you will need a company for that (= regulation again), and making a network with 1U cubesats isn't possible due to physical limitations (size, power, life span etc) and certification requirements (for example, chemical propulsion isn't generally allowed on cubesats). A OneWeb-class satellite costs much, much more.

>>63719743
>Yall need a satellite.
Nope, that's not a way out of this, even if you have the money to pull this off. You can't do this with just one satellite, satellites are also subject to heavy regulation, and the involvement required for this kind of thing will inevitably centralize everything.

In other words, anything that involves companies and big money won't be any different than the internet itself. If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.
>>
>>63719420
900mhz would have far better propagation at longer distances, and is unlicensed in north america afaik
>>
>>63720886
Easier for ITM too.
>>
>>63720886
And 900mhz requires a giant fresnel radius, and is power limited and overall just shit. It's also used by tons and tons of bullshit so interference is high.
>>
>>63718831
You're supposed to use a mast.
>>
>>63720977
Not if you use a dish for backhaul.
>>
>>63711636
Why not Guifi.net?
>>
Byamp
>>
>>63721017
Maybe a 50m mast can get you another 10 miles, but at some point it will be not worth it
>>
>>63718831
why would the earth get in the way if the earth is flat?
>>
>>63719925
altmesh is a pgud name
>>
>>63720246
a dollar is high here, unfortunately for me, so...

15,43 United States Dollars
>>
>>63719702
Thanks anon! Im gonna clear off my breadboard and pull out my arduino tonight to see if i can do some jenky DIY shit. After i finish debuging gternet-cli v0.2 that is.

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding about the implementation of the project. Because we are still so early into this that the hard details change from day to day on the IRC, but the general design, dev implemtation, and basic toolset are pretty much there.
I am still mobile posting but ill try to do a more detailed write up soon, when im not grinding code and hardware, for the IRC to review so we can be more clear with where we stand. (i would love some help with this if anyone is interested.) We will explain what our short and long term goals are, and some some non tech explanations for new people.
Sorry about the sparse documentation for what is going on eveyone. We are proceeding very quickly and its difficult to document every little change as it happens. We would love some volunteers who would be willing to dedicate some time into going through wjat we have, and keeping up with making changes to the wiki as they happen on IRC
>we need a scribe
>>
>>63721691
>Im gonna clear off my breadboard and pull out my arduino tonight to see if i can do some jenky DIY shit.

Let me know what you have in mind. I've got an Arduino sitting idle and a breadboard/hardware, too.
>>
5.8 GHz
>>
>>63713522
Are you a wizard?
>>
>>63721502
Wow, imagine that shit, radiologists can prove that the earf is not flat
>>
bamp
>>
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>>63711636
Thoughts on 900Mhz for long distances? Seems to have significant pros and cons.
>>
>>63711636
Company called Banana have router board.
It can handle basic simple encryption on way.

We should propagate manual for supercantena cannon for some connections.

For city to city, we need optic fibers and that's it. We could just rent unlighted optic fibers.

>>63713651
We haven't told there would be annonymous connection.

>>63725005
Optical fibre digged up by robotic excavator. That's the way to roll.
>>
I quit. It's no longer feasible. I'm doing all the work. I wish someone else helps me out.
City to city connections just don't seem to work
Well it was fun when it lasted
>>
>>63725486
man, just take a break for a bit. let others catch up.
>>
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>>63725486

nice shitpost mongoloid
>>
>>63725486
1 MB High Speed™ data has been deposited into your Verizon account
>>
>>63725486
Can I join too?
>>
>>63725536
this.
>>
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>>63725486
damn the shills are strong, tripcodes are for faggots but i figured someone would ruin the fun sooner or later so I may have to use one. or get on IRC or PM me for my real email. I wouldnt just drop the project like this. I am working on gternet-cli now. see pic related
>>
>ISP fags buttmad shilling hard and stealing tripfag's names
wew lad
>>
I now declare this "The Tangled Web". Get it? Tangled by knots? Hehehehe.
>>
>>63725812
SEE?! I promise I wont just up and abandon you all. I hate when that shit happens. Ive been debugging a complete overhaul of gternet-cli.
Here is a sample of the help output to show some of the things you can do.
Does anyone have feedback as to how to be more clear (if it isnt enough already)?
>>
>>63726013
im still actively changing it. I know there are still formatting problems. Im fixing it now. Sue me.
>>
>>63726013
>>63726033
Okay thats better. on to more important things for testing.
>>
>>63712391
still waiting for some answers to this.
>>
Hows it going? I am interested in this project, and thoroughly believe in its goals. Obviously, my word on an anonymous site is nothing to go on, however, I wanted to make it known early on that I am excitedly watching these threads, and given certain deliverables I am willing to commit some of my resources to look into addressing:

>croundfunding options for purchasing city to city relay backbone equipment (Richfag tier)

Of course, for me to commit funds I will have to see a viable product and some demonstration of its functionality (on a local and regional base) before we can begin discussing scaling. Beyond that, I am going to be watching for assurances that no one user or group will ever have any overt control or influence over the mesh, and that it will be able to exist safely and securely in the event of major hits to those connected to it. All too often do I see 4chan projects end up with near autocratic management teams, and I hope that my offer is enough to dissuade the engaged user base from accepting any non-democratic juntas.

Myself, and a couple of my contemporaries, are excited to see what you guys can come up with.
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>>63726877
>Myself, and a couple of my contemporaries, are excited to see what you guys can come up with.

nothing to see here, officer
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>>63727021
shit hide the weed guys
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>>63712391
>>63726568
First of all I think you are coming at an open source GNU publicly licensed project from a "lets make money" perspective, which is not at all what this is about.

> How fast is this net compared to the oldnet?
We are too early to compare any speed benchmarks. Anticipate that at least the first DEV Proof of concept version of the network will be slower than the oldnet. The nature of mesh networks means that there is a potential for a much larger number of hops between a client and service. Thus the speeds would probably slow down. Again we have yet to get to this point of testing.

> Is it scalable (as in, with increasing users, how will it handle the load)?
The network is saleable by design. In fact, the more mesh members we get the more stable the network will become.

>How does it distribute data?
We are looking into hacking our own mods into a software called ALFRED to run on top of batman-adv to handle passing around and propagating data such as DNS and IP registration (ask cat in the IRC about it)

> How do we plan on expanding?
By working out the kinks in our code and hardware so we can have a proof of concept DEV network with at least 5 intermesh bridges and at least 15 local mesh nodes that can all communicate. This will prove that the idea actually works and then we can move to hardening everything for a Prod deployment of the network. If we have something solid then it will generate more organic interest in the project.

> When the expansion inevitably leads to trouble with corporate behemoths (like verizon or telus) gettign involved, how will we be able to combat their mafia-like aggressive corporate tactics?
I honestly think they would laugh us off until we already scaled and became an issue for them. At that point we send users with bats and chains to the CEO's houses. (this is so far out that its barely even worth thinking about at this point)

> Is the network centralized?
No. It is decentralized by design.
>>
>>63727197

> How would we go about profiting from a decentralized network? Normies are easy to profit off of regardless so i'm sure we can keep decentralized and still make some sweet, sweet ca$h.
I personally have zero interest in making any money off of this. I'm on board because its open source, free to edit modify and distribute, and makes it so there is no incentive for some rouge team member trying to fuck all of us.
At MOST I would back some kind of crowd funding for equipment where 100% of donations go back into the network.
I don't want this project to turn into some money grubbing bullshit
>>
Knots-

I emailed you back; sorry for the delay; the engagement I was/am on broke out in chaos (I grabbed the hashes of a well known AV/AM company we are partnered with from network traffic; mild hysteria ensued).

I look forward to joining the IRC in a couple days and helping out the best/most I can.

Now, I have only a very rudimentary grasp of what the project has developed so far, but from what I have seen, maybe there are facets/concepts within these projects (all GPL/Open Source, etc.) that could help:

Peernet: Peer to peer network technology that uses randomized algorithms to aid in protecting the privacy/location of user nodes within the network(s): >>https://github.com/substack/peernet

The project doesn't look to have a ton of steam in 2017; here are talks from the CCC 2013 where the main dev explains the tech (including the p2p algorithm: >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpaMPo-NyEQ

An anon mentioned Banana and its use in encrypting communications.

This is one of my favorite privacy/anonymity technologies I have been playing with for awhile: the Wifi Crypt Router, a simple single board setup/program (dirt cheap to build) that forces all communication through a cascading VPN (vpnencap program, can utilize some cool shit like awnding traffic thru 5+random VPN servers); >>https://geebee.org/?s=blog&req=1&post_id=73

the developer of the Wifi Crypt Router went on to try and sell the Enigma Box, which could encrypt almost all network connections (including VOIP, and it used CJDNS) with the same/similar VPNencap; the Enigma Box was a failure and the project is open source now:>>https://github.com/enigmagroup/enigmabox-openwrt

Finally Samy Kamkar's Proxy Gambit,an anonymous net over PTP or GSM, ProxyGambit is a simple anonymization device that allows you to access the Internet from anywhere in the world without revealing your true location or IP (cont'd next comment)
>>
>>63726149

Update:
gternet-cli is still broken, I haven't finished debugging it and making it work on multiple platforms. It isnt playing well with my Pi so I will have to address that in the morning.
DO NOT USE gternet-cli UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!

If you wish to go forward with testing without it, please use the original tested deployment scripts located
Here for the intermesh p2p bridge setup:
https://git.jollo.org/gternet/architecture/intermesh
And here for the batman setup:
https://git.jollo.org/gternet/software/mesh_setup

I will post back when gternet-cli is stable and tested on multiple platforms.

Night everyone!
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>>63727454
sent you a reply. Thanks for the info. See you in the IRC
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Anyone in Vancouver working on anything?
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(cont'd)

Proxy Gambit: "ProxyGambit is a simple anonymization device that allows you to access the Internet from anywhere in the world without revealing your true location or IP, fracturing your traffic from the Internet/IP through either a long distance radio link or a reverse tunneled GSM bridge that ultimately drops back onto the Internet and exits through a wireless network you're no where near.

While a point to point link is possible, the reverse GSM bridge allows you to proxy from thousands of miles away with nothing other than a computer and Internet with no direct link back to your originating machine ProxyGambit is a simple anonymization device that allows you to access the Internet from anywhere in the world without revealing your true location or IP, fracturing your traffic from the Internet/IP through either a long distance radio link or a reverse tunneled GSM bridge that ultimately drops back onto the Internet and exits through a wireless network you're no where near.

While a point to point link is possible, the reverse GSM bridge allows you to proxy from thousands of miles away with nothing other than a computer and Internet with no direct link back to your originating machine."

>>https://samy.pl/proxygambit/

Also Tunneldigger (>> https://wlan-si.net/en/blog/2012/10/29/tunneldigger-the-new-vpn-solution/ >>https://github.com/wlanslovenija/tunneldigger) and Openmesher (>>https://github.com/heyaaron/openmesher) program that can control/manipulate/ creates "ethernet pseudowire" via L2TP and P2P while OpenMesher "OpenMesher takes a simple list of routers and meshes them. TunnelDigger requires you to explicitly specify each link between routers.

OpenMesher takes a list of netblocks (10.1.2.0/24, 10.1.15.0/28, or whatever) and automatically allocates /30s from each block for assignment to P2P interfaces. TunnelDigger requires you to manually specify IPs on each side of the p2p link.
>>
>>63718516
Damn, wish I had that
>>
Guys, what this needs is anime grills! The UI could use some~
>>
>>63726013
Haha the way you talk reminds me a colombian friend of mine
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>>63727496
Anything I can do to help?
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>>63727197
No ipfs?
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>>63711636
I have an idea on hardware. What if we buy some used $100 core i3 pc plus with wi-fi pcie card and big all-directional antenna (or two antennas: 2,4 Ghz and 5Ghz) as "city level" exit or just central node that can handle a big load with many clients?
>>
>>63719996
>hyperboria
>good
>>
I can provide/donate part of the infrastructure in Europe(Poland to be exactly), I can provide two 2Gbps dedicated servers and a 10Gbps seedbox (for file storing and sharing/sftp?).
>>
>>63725812
names are for faggots too
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>>63711641
>- A hash based system to assign addresses across a decentralized network (cat is looking for more input on this; if you have any comments/questions direct them towards him in irc).
IPv6 only? RFC1918 is too tiny for this. How to secure routing?
>>
>>63728256
No. For that money you could buy a 5.8ghz bridge and an sbc. Why would you pay the same for something shitty and useless?
>>
>>63728404
Because dedicated pc node can handle 10 time the speed of RPI and much more users. SCP are good for simple clients, but you still need some level of centralisation.
>>
bump
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>>63720246
about 3.50
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>>63728087
somewhat related, do we have backups of all the major boorus so we can restore them somewhere?
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>>63713914
Are you having a stroke
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>>63730236
>He doesn't have his own personal backup of all the boorus already
Gays not welcome
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>>63711636
What is this image, I'm new
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>>63711641
IPFS is doing this, build it on that. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Where would one be able to buy a cheap directional wifi antennae?
>>
>>63727684

I had one.
I wish Tamatown stayed alive
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>>63731620
You can get a decent 2.4ghz yagi pretty much anywhere online for ~$60
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>>63711636
Why not use substratum?
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>>63727242
Money will have to be a part of the system at some point, like it or not. Cryptocurrency integration is the obvious choice, and incentivizing people to keep contributing to the project is different from creating a ponzi scheme. If you ask me, Monero would be a good choice just to make it harder for ISPs and the government to kill this thing if it gets big enough to threaten their business model.
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>>63732322
>Money will have to be a part of the system at some point, like it or not.
So we are creating the internet with shitty wireless connections?
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>>63727197
>(this is so far out that its barely even worth thinking about at this point)
I disagree. There are more pressing matters, yes, but totally ignoring this question instead of having it be an axiom of the design process seems short-sighted to me. Measure twice, cut once. It won't matter if we meet our short term goals if we don't make ourselves bulletproof by the time shit hits the fan and a billion lawyers converge on this thing.

I only say this in the same spirit that the founding fathers of America had, their design revolved around the axiom "power corrupts", and they did a damn good job finding out how to mitigate that, even though that wouldn't be a problem for a century and they had a lot of pressing matters to deal with first as a new nation.
>>
>>63711636
>IRC
>not Discord
neck yourself
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>>63732392
Discord is a botnet
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>>63732469
>he took the bait
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>>63731620
lib-p2p and IPFS are very exciting to me.
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>>63732382
I'm not sure what the final product is gonna look like, but if it works and we can create a new internet, paying people (or getting paid) 1 cent an hour for access to the new internet will do nothing but accelerate its usage and benefit the project as a whole.
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>>63732528
>paying people (or getting paid)
Who pays? And who gets paid?
>>
I am completely tech illiterate compared to everyone on this board, but if I can do anything to help in any way I'd be glad to.
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>>63732493
>>
>>63732565
Well, presumably the people running the software/hardware get paid, and anyone who isn't but still wants to use the meshnet pays.

>what about local price fixing
Then set up your own hardware/software node, undercut the competition, and get all their business. Capitalism at its finest.
>>
>>63732607
>>63732565
What about an edonkey syle reputation system where traffic is prioritized by your reputation, access is free but slow if you don't contribute, if you contribute and that contribution can be verified then you're higher on the processing queue. This might incentivize people to keep their nodes on when they otherwise wouldn't or get better equipment.
>>
>>63732565
>Who pays?
You

>And who gets paid?
Me
>>
>>63732565
>>63732607
>>63732629
I couldn't think of the name of this before posting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack
This has to be kept in mind as well.
>>
>>63732607
>Well, presumably the people running the software/hardware get paid,
If i run a rpi with a usb i get the same paid as the guy running a transatlantic link?

>Capitalism at its finest.
We have it now. Oligopoly at its finest.
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>>63730661
no bully
i have internet data caps and i dont have enough storage yet (but i am buying some HDDs in time for christmas)
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>>63732629
I would prefer this kind of system over meme currency bs
>>
so tell me again why people don't just pay for their own hardware, and if other people think a node is too slow or unreliable, then just don't use it?
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>>63732657
Anti-capitalism is retarded and juvenile. Come back when you get a job.
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>>63732703
Bully mode disengage. Have a loli
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>>63732735
This. Either they contribute to the network, or piss off.
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>>63732751
I'm just describing the current internet. You and the whole project decided it's bad.
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>>63732812
Oligopoly =/= capitalism. You've seen capitalism twisted by government to allow for monopolization and now you think corruption is the end result of every capitalistic society. All systems are subject to degradation but capitalism is about producers and consumers negotiating the transfer of energy. Keep you politics out, and don't be such a baby about money. If you hate the current system buy some bitcoin and integrate it into the meshnet.
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>>63730661
>backing up boorus
>not backing up the individual artist's works separateky
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>>63732629
Yacy keeps statistics on your node but I don't know if they're used in any kind of decision making. Keeping and swapping some stats between peers may be useful, specifically something like uptime is a good metric for selecting peers.
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>>63732866
But that's exactly what I do. Plus I add the safe/questionable/explicit to the beginning so I can lolipost with impunity
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>>63730236
As long as someone has the images we might be able to rely on the hydrus PTR for all the metadata while keeping the actual image data distributed.
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>>63732703
My suggestion is buy used hard drives in bulk from server bays/rackspaces.
What may be considered junk is another man's treasure.
Check the quality of drive by doing a SMART test on all of what you bought then do online and one offline backups. By the time you get moar bux, buy another bulk HDDs and re-backup.
Rinse and repeat.
>internet data caps
Get a better plan or find your internet hacking forum.
Some contractors resell ISP equipment and illegal shit like that. Some communities teach how to or sell cracked postapid sims (means unlimited data). Depends on country and your ISP's kung fu.
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>>63732967
>>internet data caps
>Get a better plan
only reason i'm stuck with capped LTE is because i'm still in college and i haven't moved out yet. otherwise i'd get cable or fibre
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>>63732925
that;s nice but you should be ripping their enitre twitter accounts and pixiv/mastodon stuff and while you're at it you should rip enty and patreon premiums. some artist delete stuff they posted after few hours so you gotta be updated or automate the process. Goodluck to you bro, bless your loli drives.
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>>63732961 >>63732925 >>63732866 >>63732765 >>63732703 >>63730661 >>63730236
so can anyone hit me up? i might be able to borrow some public internet for a day and download it all
>>
file coin coild be utilized on a private blockchain to pay people for storage

you can use the coins to buy storage or earn coins by providing storage.

imagine the possibilities!
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>>63733026
Are you telling me I might be able to leverage my loli, anime, manga stash for real money?!
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>>63732999
maybe it's a bit stretch but there are places where you can buy corporate LTE plans but I don't recommend doing that.
If I were you I'd set up a home server at parent's home to use cable internet, setup a ddns to remotely control my torrent client and control the PC with rdp or vnc
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>>63733067
by "places" I mean "exciting and shady" transactions.
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>>63733067
i've managed with 40gb shared a month for a couple years now, so i can do it a little longer
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>>63733065
No, unless someone is paying you to store the loli specifically.

Though there are alternative demand-based file blockchains in development
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>>63733065
yup.
Imagine you can set a partition up and it get sandboxed and shared onto the mesh network and then people who pay you coins to rent that space can use it just like a VPS (hosting websites or cloud storage or vpns)

Then you can re-use those for storage later on when the ratio gets better or you can exchance them for eth/btc or $$ and make a profit.
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>>63732865
>If you hate the current system buy some bitcoin and integrate it into the meshnet.
I don't hate the current system. I live in a small village and have 7 VDSL and one DOCSIS provider to choose from. It just werks here. And i don't think the internet needs to be replaced.
This threads is pure LARPING if you really care just build an enduser ISP that doesn't suck. The rest of the net is ok.
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>>63733065
I suppose you could also provide hosting for anime websites and then you get content and paid which is win win?
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>>63733112
>And i don't think the internet needs to be replaced.
why are you in this thread then?
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>>63733114
>>63733099
I might actually look into this.
I picked up a couple hard drives cheap on Black Friday so I got plenty of space
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>>63733096
>demand-based file blockchains in development
not them but that's awesome!
loli singularity 2020
>>
maybe we can make a API around filecoin to allow people into the meshnet.

that way its self driven and can be decentralized.
maybe have a automated script that sets up batmand on that reserved space (1GB minimal?) and you get paid periodically which can then be used to buy network time.

setup the whole ledger so its open source and no one owns it like a automated machine.
we have to worry about people abusing the mesh otherwise and this would provide a entre hurdle to reduce some chaff

imagine the trolls and spammers...
also the people who will ddos or scam users or even throttle the network and steal all the bandwidth

this way they wouldnt ever need to pay with real $$ but they could dedicate a small portion of their device to the network.
>>
I see a lot of posts about how people want to monetize this but havent contributed a single thing.
How about you commit something to git or build some hardware designs nefore you start tying to add to your NEETbux please.
I liked the idea i saw about incentivizing based off of node operator stats.
But right now every9ne needs to shut up with the "hurr funding" talk and just fucking start building aomething on their end.
This kind of getting ahead of ourselves is what kills projects. Get a proof of cincept netwirk built to show we aremt full of shit or we will NEVER get to the point of needing funding in the first place.


Im still lurking, taking a small break today until later. I need to just chill for a bit.
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>>63733159
Meshnet devices are mostly wireless right?
If true, I'd like to address the issue that we'll suffer EMF jammers.
Solution? Probably Li-fi. Haven't seen li-fi discussed here
>>
Has anyone in this project looked in existing real-world mesh networking projects such as Sudomesh or the recent developments in Detroit?

What wireless protocols are you planning on using? Wifi only, or do you have plans for heavier relays? You can theoretically set up GSM base stations as long as you have a amateur radio license and use the ISM band, but legally your messages aren't supposed to be encrypted and the channel might be filled with other crap.

Running a proper mesh network is extremely hard because the wireless protocols that are readily available are too shitty for the usecase, and the good ones are are basically controlled by state-supported monopolies (I'm speaking for the US here. The FCC licenses off the airspace for all bands, and by now almost everything useful is under control of a giant corporation. They have secondary markets though. And its still possible to get set up with microwave stuff).

>high powered wireless dishes for City to City relays.
Is there a concrete plan here?

What cities are you planning on targeting first? The best software and hardware in the world still won't help if you can't build the network from the ground up.
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>>63733120
I'm interested in networking.
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>>63733223
>we'll suffer EMF jammers
You are vulnerable even when using regular wifi. Have you ever been victim of such jammers ? Did anyone in this thread experience this ?
Me neither.
Not even a deauth storm. While technically possible, this is only marginal problem to the rest we are facing (bridges, dns, ip allocation,..)
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>>63733279
can you at least agree that network diversity is important and having localmeshes would benefit that goal?
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>>63733266
>GSM base stations
I'd recommend wimax. much faster, greater throughput, stability, and range, It;s like the sweet spot of wifi and 4G though I don't really know the details on how to operate BS
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>>63733266
Me again. I just wanted to make a point more clear: Building a mesh network is more of an organization and distribution project than it is a hardware/software project. Building the tech is important! But "building the network" is what you should focus on. Looking at the map, I don't see anywhere that you could build a strong mesh. And you might think "Once we get things started people will want to join". But that's exactly the hardest part: how do you get the network started to the point where you can build a proper mesh.

The best examples of real-world citizen mesh networks I've seen are in poor neighborhoods where people cannot receive or pay for internet, and everyone works together to build the network.

I love the idea, and I think some of the ideas you have for establishing trusted services in the network are great. But I think the realities of getting this off the ground need to be addressed.

Or it can just be a fun hardware/software project. That's good too.
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>>63711641
Knots as in dogs, right? I'll make the logo.
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>>63711641
development kits when?
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>>63733452
Right, that's an option too! I just gave the GSM example because it's easier to get civilians on the network. With LTE and WiMax you once again have to use a shared band. How will you know it will work? What will happen if there's noise on the channel? WiMax equipment is expensive; there is a reason why people go through the process of getting licensed bands for these things.

You can use WiMax in the ISM band too. AFAIK, it's not possible to run rogue LTE succesfully in a city. People have done it in areas of the world with no service or in the middle of nowhere, but in a city all the possible LTE bands will be owned by your local telcos. There could be a hole somewhere though. These are the things this project needs to figure out if it wants to become real.
>>
I know we are very early in this project but, I must say that in one point we need to invest in satellite and/or radio to connect to the mesh-nets who are far from each other if we wish to ditch the Internet completely.
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>>63733699
Now, now, we shouldn’t get too much ahead of ourselves. Maybe when this project is more ‘mainstream’ we can think about those things, but now it’s important to work on the project itself and get it started in the first place.
>>
what the hell is going on in IRC?
retards managed to finally connect?
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>>63733780
seriously, I am the only dude in thousands of miles who signed up for this. Just take a look at the map. I feel so lonely :(
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>>63733832
kek
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>>63733833
You're fucked. Local meshnets only work in centers where people are relatively closely located.
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>>63733882
Dude, I live in one of the crowdiest city in this planet. But, it's not my fault if I am the only dude among the 15 million people who signed up for this :/

Yep, 15 million people live in my city
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>>63733426
>diversity is important
Yes but the "the internet sucks" is mostly an end user ISP problem. There are about 59k ISPs (ASN) in the routing table right now. It is already decentralized. And thats maybe the most decentralization possible on that scale. Sure local meshes can help with that but the real threat in my opinion are services like youtube, facebook, google, cloudflare etc. and thats not a problem with the internet as a network but the users who prefer centralized services.
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>>63733466
> poor neighborhoods where people cannot receive or pay for internet, and everyone works together to build the network.
Universities can be a point of entry.
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>>63733928
Well, damn.
desu the leaders of this project need to pick a city to start building on a small scale. If you can't connect 2 nodes you'll never connect a thousand (or whatever). Writing software will not solve the growth problem.
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>>63733699
couldn't find the original article but it these guys at CCC are already on it
https://time2hack.com/2012/01/hackers-developing-satellite-system-for-uncensorable-internet-in-space/
>>
>>63733928
Make flyers, stand on the street corner handing them out. Post them on windshields in parking lots. Just some basic info, a simple drawing of a meshnet and the links to the wiki.
>>
>>63733999
>Three prototypes are in development, and the team hopes to have them in place in the early half of 2012.
>early half of 2012.
>2012
>>
>>63733780
>important
Its important if its to have a chance of success.
Whether or not that success is achievable is entirely up to your imagination and how hard you work. I doubt any goals that make the project worthwhile will ever be reached and I suspect the person driving it is doing it for a school project and doesn't expect it to ever work.
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>>63734010
I will do so, I am going to post about this project in the facebook group of my university. As a matter of fact, I am a student of CSE, but most of my classmates are more interested in youtube than this kind of things. :(
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>>63733947
>the real threat in my opinion are services like youtube, facebook, google, cloudflare etc.
i'm working on alternatives to that stuff more than i am on the actual meshnet, because i live in a place that wouldn't have much interest in shelling out cash for the reqiured hardware and spending time setting it up. if we can get decentralised/distributed services to replace stuff like youtube, github, and other stuff then we already made a decent step forward. if we happen to make a successful meshnet on top of that, it's a plus; if not, at least we learn from it
>>
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>>63711636
I had another thought, as far as our many stage plan to get this thing up and running (remember, the original internet pioneers had to work hard to make it happen too) focus on getting our first groups as proof of concept online. Creating net communities is a great start with the eventual goal of linking them all together.

After that, any problems the core groups encounter (trust issues, technical problems etc) should become subjects of debate and discussion so we can fix them and make the final project stronger.

Finally once we have a very solid proof of concept thats already running in several hubs across the globe, we spread easy to read manuals/memes for those who feel its too complicated to figure out how to set it up. Assuming we still even need them that is.

Above all, get that proof of concept going in as many places as possible. Got a /g/ neighbour down the road? Link up. Best candidates are those living in large cities.
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>>63734074
>CSE
>my classmates are more interested in youtube than this kind of things. :(
:( indeed
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>>63734147
I would like to bring up the harm you do to the project by posting pornographic furry material harming its legitimacy and dissuading people from interest in the project.
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>>63734147
>Above all, get that proof of concept going in as many places as possible.
That's why I say getting the word out to universities can be a good step. Large corporations target them with their products and advertising all the time. High density populations that can spread the word quickly, has access to research funds (maybe), and can boost popularity.
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>>63734076
I appreciate that but because of the network effect it's really hard do compete with the large sites. Even technically literate people like >>63734200 and a lot on /g/ (look at all those discord shills) don't care.

>poor neighborhoods where people cannot receive or pay for internet, and everyone works together to build the network.
Becoming an WISP isn't that expensive and difficult. If you live in an area which shitty internet you should ask your neighbors and start with a few links. It's not p2p mesh stuff but still contributes to a more diverse internet.
>>
>>63734221
be quiet, fag
>>
>>63732322
This is what i was trying to get at.
We need to figure out of fiscal model for when this gets to that point. How can we make it so that the project will financially support itself and have the power (funds) to expand at the same time? What model of income will we use to make it:
1. fair to the user
2. allow for expansion of the net
3. give capital to combat problems in future
While most of the people in the IRC and here are concerned with the hardware and software, as well as system archetecture and design, some of us are concerned with the political and financial toubles that will inevitably come ahead. To avoid repeating the mistakes of the past (of the oldnet) we need to figure out how to model the newnet to avoid corruption, and because of the way the world works money will inevitably get involved in this project.

Now, as i mentioned before one of our goals in this project is to expand, we need to find a way to get this to the public and push out the old-net, so that we can replace the old-net. (henceforth i will refer to old-net and new-net as Onet and Nnet repecively).

Part of our concerns is the political element, how will we combat effective bribery and manipulation of politicians by coroparte leaders who want to squash our operation? Inevitably we will need to bribe them back. We need to figure out how to overcome our future competition once the foundations have been erected, so that we can thrive in future and ensure a brighter less orwellian future. Since thise ssytem is decentralized by design, it makes it difficult if not impossible for the government to control it, and when the NSA and other agencies concerned with mass serveillance cath wind of this project, we will need to find a way to overcome them as well. This is going to be an uphill battle on all front (technologically and politically) but i'm sure we can make it if we figure it out.

The future is now, lets make the best of it.
~bubble squid.
>>
>>63734434
please be our GUI
>>
>>63732655
This. We must keep an eye out for the wolves within out midst's.

>>63732607
This might actually work. We could incentivise prospecting money-seekers out of the citizenry, like what's happening with bitcoin mining.
What if we attach a fragment of bitcoin (like 0.001milli-coin, whatever is around 0.1 cents) to each packet that is sent, and each hosting node gets to keep a fragment of that coin as it passes by, thus whenever you use you pay a very small fee, and whenever you technologically support it you recieve a fee, thus incentivising a decentralised capitalistic model. Essentially making hosting the same as investing a stock in the project, your support yield a reward, and as more peole use it you get paid more. If we make the overall pay logarithmic (it decreases through each passing node) then that would result in more locally clustered nodal support, but if we make the pay-out constant among nodes (first have an algorithm seeks the shortest route from a to b, and then pay a constant amount devided by the nummber of host nodes) then it will distribute more uniformly. We must certainly be careful so as not to let big-whig companies gwet a big hold on the host share, nor should we allow too many greedy bastards to benifit, the goal is to find a way to attract the technically skilled layman just as bitcoin did attract miners.
What do you guys think, what's a good model for this system that would incentivise a decentralised model and which would also attract prospectors?
>>
>>63732387
This

The project will be bigger than you realize anon.
>>
>>63727197
we might be able to make it more efficient if we can create a path-finder algorithm to map out the shortest route (time wise) from A to B. Taking into account processing speed of nodes, latency, etc.
>>
>>63734856
As far as I can see, there isn't even a network with at least 2 nodes that exists with this project. The map shows no obvious prospects for initial cities or universities. Very few people in these threads seem to understand the technical challenges that come with wireless networking.
>>
>>63732657
>If i run a rpi with a usb i get the same paid as the guy running a transatlantic link?
we should probably also consider the amount of data going thorugh any 1 node for how much they get paid. IF you're hositng a trans-atlantic node then prepare to drown in green :^)
>>
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>>63734839
>0.1 cents to each packet that is sent
>>
to think I happened to be around in the first thread when people decided to do this...
I don't browse /g/ often.
>>
>>63734839
>nor should we allow too many greedy bastards to benifit
i retract that statement it was too ambiguous.
The idea is to get as many people as possible in on this so that it becomes functionally impossible to shut it down. Data (like websites) needs to be kept in a cloud or something. I dunno.

>>63734935
set the price then, what sounds reasonable?
1 cent/10000 packets?
1 cent/1000 packets?
Name a price that is good enought to attract prospecters, but low enough that people would be willing to pay the fee?
>>
I'm considering joining the gternet project. Where can i find literature on the technology and software involved in networking? I'm a summer babe so completely lost on this.
>>
Brainlet here, how are we going to prevent intermediaries from tampering with data flowing through the mesh network? I don't know enough cryptography to answer this, but I'm assuming that the people here do.
>>
>>63735017
>>63735023
These.
>>
>>63733990
>leaders of this project
>>
>>63734993
Price could be dynamic. Only forward the packet on if you think the price is fair. Market would figure itself out, but there would be some weird scenarios where things could get stuck for a while.

The problem with this whole decentralized payment idea is that it's hard to verify if the data was sent or not. If the recipient needs to ack the packet then you can collude for free transit. If the routers get the funds when they receive the packet, then they can just drop it with no repercussions. You would probably need a system of blacklisting nodes, but it's possible to abuse that as well. I think it's important to simply focus on getting a simple network, any network, set up. All these theoretical ideas will be useless if you can't start a simple mesh network.

>>63735017
Besides what's in the OP, you should brush up on everything IP. The internet is already a decentralized system but run by corporations. Look up BGP and how the internet backbone is supported. This project might not use those technologies, but the concepts will be the same.

>>63734870
If you authenticate your nodes you use the Spanning Tree Protocol (or similar) to create network map. High level routing will need to be done by ip address, or whatever addressing scheme you come up with. Assignment of addresses could be difficult. In the real internet people have had to agree on address space allocation.

>>63735023
You cannot, same as original internet. You have to use a secure tunneling protocol or an encrypted application protocol (HTTPS) if you want safety. Trying to shove encryption or hmacs in the TCP/IP layer is a bad idea imo.
>>
>>63734839
>>63734935
>>63734993
>not even a working prototype of mesh network
>seriously thinking of implementing BitCoin transaction system
>>
So pic related is the end game right?
>>
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>>63735418
more or less...
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>>63734714
Cryptocurrency micropayments are the obvious answer. The average American pays over $0.06 an hour for internet, which means if an individual or group of individuals could provide a similar service, they could make $1/day/customer and it would be completely fair. That money can go towards maintenance costs, electric bills, hardware purchases, expansions, and solve all kinds of problems.

I'm anything but an expert, but as far as I can tell this is what a successful mesh network would look like: About 5% (a huge percentage) of the population would bother to set up one node in the network. They get paid for that node, and if you wanted you could expand your individual ISP to be bigger, increasing bandwidth and the amount of people that you could serve. This means more money, which you can flip into more expansion, etc. Anyone could become an ISP if they want, and ideally there would be free, detailed and simple directions online on how to set up a node. The hardware would get cheaper and cheaper because of wider use.

It'll be the same as owning a car in the future. 5% of people will own cars, and the rest of us will rent that car from those private individuals when they don't need it. Renting out your car will generate income, which means you could buy another car to send out full-time to earn you more income. Prices stay down because you're distributing the cost of one car on more people, and the more advanced the algorithm for the autonomous car gets, the more people it can serve per car. (1/2)
>>
>>63735501
(2/2) As for the political element, I'm not against bribery but I don't think it'll be necessary. No banks will have to be bribed to make cryptocurrencies work, mass adoption will force them to evolve or die. The unfortunate thing is, cryptocurrencies have the same problem that a meshnet has, which that until you find the 100th monkey, it will look like nobody wants to risk an unproven system. You have to create a better system than what already exists, and even then growth will be slow.
>>
Oh my fucking god stop talking about incentivizing and monetizing. We are literally 2 weeks into this and barely have started building anything at all.
Two Pi zeros cost like 40 USD. The invcentive to grow is its cheap entry point for helping with development.
Get the fucking network live and working and THEN worry about how you are going to fuck it up with monetization
>>
>>63735501
>>63735516
No one would ever pay for ~20kbit/s. The only realistic payment would be people purchasing the hardware
>>
>>63735581
I'm gonna be honest, >>63734883 nailed it, I know fuck all about wireless networking. I can just stay out of this thread if you really think I'm hurting the discussion but I'm very excited about this concept and I'd rather contribute things I do know rather than start asking to be spoonfed a guide on what I need to do to set up a point in the network.
>>
>>63735686
There are scripts to do almost everything for you...
>>
>>63735728
Scipts that build hardware?
You wont get far with a WiFi antenna
>>
Could someone point me to a networking tutorial? I want to pitch in technically, but I don't know where to start.
>>
>>63735610
If we're talking about 1/100,000th of a penny for that speed, people would
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>>63735773
we're currently working on the hardware tutorials and stuff. Conversations about how we can make muh money isn't going to help anyone at the moment.
>>
>>63735165
You know how bcoin mining works right?
As i mentioned before (and as you should have read) a small chuunk of coin, along with fragments of keys are sent (like how a packet is sent as an onion) and at each node some of the coin is shaved off.

We should definitely focus of getting the mesh network built, but we should also be using a thinktank to figure out how to make it lucrative for those involved, so that we don't have to hack in some code/hardware into the system later on.
Its best to consider these things now rather than later, so that we are prepared for the bullshit ahead.
>>
>>63735812
That's fair, but just to be clear nobody in their right mind sees this as a profit-generating venture. The only reason money is being discussed is because hardware doesn't grow on trees.
>>
>>63711636
Is this going to be a repeat of grand theft gentoo?
>>
>>63735783
So people would have to set up a BitCoin vallet and buying a tiny amount of BitCoin in order to pay what would be a negligible sum of USD? That is a very bad idea.

Also I am not sure people prosing these micro-transactions understand how BitCoin transfer work. Either the transfer has to be done on the nodes in the network which is retarded considering that dedicated BitCoin hardware takes a very long time and enormous amounts of energy making the transactions so there is no way in hell it could be done on Raspberry Pi's or whatever hardware most people will use for nodes.
>>
>>63735874
and at the current state, the people who eagerly want to deal with money related things haven't spent a cent.
Nobody stops you from buying different GNU/Linux capable boards and testing the scripts on them.
>>
>>63735851
>You know how bcoin mining works right?
Absolutely. Do you?
>along with fragments of keys are sent
Here is the problem I'm trying to tell you:
Imagine I run a node and need to forward traffic to other people. If it's a large hop, that means I need to use my fancy high-end wireless dish to send the packet. Instead of that crap, I can take my share of coins from the packet and drop it.
The technical aspect is easy. The trust aspect is not.
>>
>>63735874
knots here

If the money discussion is STRICTLY for hardware fundraising ill support it. Any monetary gain from this should have 100% raised put back into network hardware.
>>
People speak of "buying hardware" but there is still no location for this project.
>>
>>63735969
the location of the project is where you currently are.
>>
>>63735501
>I'm anything but an expert...
exacly my point. the more isp's the bigger the competition and the more decentralised the data is (its distributed among more and more prospecting isp's, making it harder to centralize data).

I'm thinking these should be factors taken itno accoutn when a node recieved cash-flow:
- packet size
- number of packets processed
- latency
- transmission rate
- etc.
Each node gets paid according to the quality and quantity it provides, the challenge is figuring out how to automate this so it cannot be abused.
In addition to setting up the net in the first place, of course.

>>63735581
Don't worry, i'm going to start getting this figured out so that i can support it on all fronts. Currently i'm fuguring out the tech and its limits so i can fiure out how to make this internet faster, more decentralized, lucrative, and effective. I want this project to succeed for the sake of a freer internet. As the founding fathers formed a republic to manifest liberty, so i hope to have a libertarian internet so that all men are free to share and take data at their own discretion, as God so wills each man to be free. Amen.
>>
>>63735989
If it's just me it's not a network. Who will I peer with?
Are people investing in wireless hardware for protocols other than Wi-Fi? Shouldn't this start from the ground up at a small location using readily available tech?
>>
>>63735969
I was doing a small project on the side before I knew of gternet, which was pretty much the same as gternet and to connect me and some Uni friends over our own internet. I purchased some hardware parts but havent really done anything with it due all the shit I had to do during this semester. However my semester is almost done now so I will continue my project.

If I get my hardware to function as I want it to then I am going to add it to the gternet project and make it so that hardwarelets can use it. It will be in the ballpark of 7 Miles and 20kbps so pretty much useless for anything but text chat and tiny file sharing
>>
>>63736056
knots here

I am going to use all the internet money i made in the past two days from the pump and dump on BTC to buy some Upiquity equipment in the next week or so.
Im already 200 dollars deep into this project so I am going to just go all out
>>
>>63736096
>7 Miles
That's awesome. What wireless technology is it? Is that directional?
>>
>>63736056
What you propose is ref A, this project will likely be B, ideally it will be C. The whole goal is to move as far away from the left as possible within the means we have.

You are a dot, you want to connect to other dots, in some way that isn't just centralized, falling back to central is a backup strategy, not a primary strategy, the primary stratify is "use whatever the most efficient route I can reach" which may be connecting to your neighbor, or someone miles away via some laser, or whatever means you have, that's the purpose, connection from your node to other nodes, somehow, not 1 specific way.
>>
>>63736131
This is a good post and diagram. Save that shit.
>>
>>63736131
I understand what a mesh network is. My post is suggesting something you didn't picture: a single dot. This project needs to figure out how their going to build and scale this network. As I said elsewhere in the thread, the technical part will be easy compared to the logistics of building out the network.
>>
>>63736127
It is half-duplex if that is what you are asking. This means that communication can go both ways but one way at a time. I have yet to determine how they would interfere with eachother. And it is around 500MHz signal so it should be able to penetrate a few walls and such
>>
>>63736234
Gotcha. By "directional" I mean does it need a directional antenna that points to another antenna somewhere else.
What wireless standard is it using?
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>>63736223
>This project needs to figure out how their going to build and scale this network.
That's not what the project needs, that's what the project IS. Read the threads, we're discussing it all the time. How to connect point A to point B.
>>
>>63736271
>How to connect point A to point B.
That's what I'm getting at. That's the easy part. However, this project is dead in the water if you can't figure out what point A and point B are, and then connect them.
Mesh networking is already a thing. Where is the /g/ternet?
>>
>>63736223
We have. We are using p2p layer 2 internet bridges to connect islolated uses to the larger network. The idea is that once a node operator sets up a p2p intermesh bridge it will be easier to get people on board with the local meshnet stuff on their end. So yes you can set up just a p2p intermesh node amd browse gternet just like a mesh user would.
>>
>>63736267
It should be omni directional which would be great for type C in this post >>63736131
>>
>>63736271
>>63736287
I guess what I mean is this:
The people in this thread and OP seem to want to build a network of computers in the real world. The progress I see so far is on the tooling to build out that network. Okay, that's great, but it's not a network.

>>63736304
>We have
Where?
By "build and scale" I mean actually build a computer network. Scaling out a network in the real world using wireless technology is harder than you might imagine. Coming up for designs for internet bridges does not create the network.

>>63736308
Great! Does it operate on noisy channels? For example, will it be in the same band as people trying to talk to each other? The wireless standard being used effects these things.
>>
ayy knots, don't worry about it.
I can create the next one if needed, pasta should be the same.
>>
>>63736287
>if you can't figure out what point A and point B are
There's a map of nodes right in the OP and people discussing where they're located in the threads, IRC, etc.

You can't place the network in itself, just the nodes within it, the project is figuring out on a point-to-point basis how the connections are made, there's no one size fits all solution so they have to be made and remade as needed.

For instance, me connecting to you might require a long distance method of communication right now, but if we managed to get a lot of nodes between us, a relay may become possible when it wasen't before, the opposite can also happen. The point of the project is to assess these things as needed. Unlike a centralized solution you can't just generalize it.
>>
thread's about to autosage

can next OP include (among logos/names) not to talk about:
>monetary incentive
>satellites or other expensive meme hardware
>worrying about centralisation
we haven't gotten past proof of concept yet and people are already talking about this shit. these questions will answer themselves over time, and we're doing nothing but polluting the thread with this hypothetical back-and-forth banter. just focus on making a network for now...
>>
>>63736396
noted
>>
>>63736368
>The progress I see so far is on the tooling to build out that network. Okay, that's great, but it's not a network.
A network cannot be built without the means to build it first, we need to figure out where everyone is that is participating, then how to connect them, then list out how to connect to them as well for newcomers, in that order. I don't think I understand your question.

>>63736396
>autosage
It's a bump limit.
>>
>>63736417
while i'm talking about it i may as well make the new OP
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>>63736368
The bands should be free iirc but the fun part is designing a network protocol that can fix this.

>>63736396
I agree but I think we should have a re-discussion of name and logo design
>>
>>63736395
I saw the map, but I don't see a network.
I don't think you realize how expensive "long distance communication" can be, especially in a decentralized network.

Anyway, this thread is about to die. I like the idea for this project but I'm just not seeing it happen right now. Picking a place (or places!) to start building out the network does not make things centralized. I've helped out on city-scale community mesh networking projects. You're going to find that things don't work as well as you might hope. But you won't see for yourself until you start building the network.
>>
>>63736435
well go ahead. limit's reached
>>
>>63736434
>It's a bump limit.
yeah and it's called autosage
>>63736440
>I agree but I think we should have a re-discussion of name and logo design
there are issues on the git, use those and not the thread
>>
>>63736434
>we need to figure out where everyone is that is participating, then how to connect them
Mesh networks already exist. Are you planning on connecting people hundreds of miles away from each other without intermediate parties in an inexpensive way?

>>63736440
>The bands should be free iirc but the fun part is designing a network protocol that can fix this.
Godspeed
>>
>>63719828
>>63734839
>>63734993
>>63735165
>>63735501
>>63735914
http://altheamesh.com/how-it-works
Y'all are a bit late on the idea.
>>
>>63736455
I always forget how many literal autists are on /g/. I was merely memeing about the logo and name my friend :^)
>>
The speed is limited by design right, I mean is one user is downloading a file from another node and that user speed isn't limited, would he "choke" that note.
>>
>>63736545
*node
>>
new thread >>63736557
>>
>>63736499
"SIMPSONS DID IT"

just because someone did something similar doesnt mean we cant do our own thing too
>>
>>63736446
>I don't think you realize how expensive "long distance communication" can be, especially in a decentralized network.
Sentences like this harm your credibility
>I've helped out on city-scale community mesh networking projects.
As stated multiple time by more than just myself, a centralized fallback is always possible in the interim. Look at how CJDNS works over the centralized internet but also communicates through other means at the same time. Again the goal is to move from left to right on this graphic >>63736131

You can;t expect these things to just pop up and be finished immediately, what is this project, like 2 weeks old?
>>
>>63736612
He is not wrong in his claim and a centralized fallback is a bad idea since it would mean some anon would need to have hardware capable of doing the same as lets say 15 Raspberry Pi's with antennas. Not going to happen
>>
>>63736612
>>I don't think you realize how expensive "long distance communication" can be, especially in a decentralized network.
>Sentences like this harm your credibility
Sure man. Take a look at the map. Look at how far some of these people are. How are you going to connect them in an affordable, scalable way? I mean what wireless tech *specifically* are you going to use for it.

>Look at how CJDNS works over the centralized internet but also communicates through other means at the same time.
I'm familiar with CJDNS. It's more technology and tooling. It is not a physical computer network like this project wants to create.

>You can;t expect these things to just pop up and be finished immediately, what is this project, like 2 weeks old?
My issue is that there seems to be no plan at all for actually starting the network. I don't mean the tools. I don't mean the software, nor new routing protocols or cryptocurrency payments. I mean actually connecting two computers together. That's what I want to see.
>>
>>63736703
Can someone start writing issues down like in >>63736545? There is no way I can remember stuff like this in a week when I have the time really work on this projekt. Like do someone know how to make pastebin or maybe better add it to the Wiki
>>
>>63736703
Why are you ignoring the fallback that keeps being mentioned? Again, why are you expecting the network to suddenly exist when we have the obvious spatial problem you're mentioning? Again, the whole point is to get the nodes up first, worry about connecting them through other means besides central, later when it's possible. Me and you could connect using software and the central backbone right now regardless of where we are, it's not ideal but if it's the only means then so be it, later it can change. I said this already here >>63736395
>For instance, me connecting to you might require a long distance method of communication right now, but if we managed to get a lot of nodes between us, a relay may become possible when it wasen't before, the opposite can also happen. The point of the project is to assess these things as needed. Unlike a centralized solution you can't just generalize it.

>>63736692
>anon would need to have hardware capable of doing the same as lets say 15 Raspberry Pi's with antennas
For relaying in a decentralized system, yes, but that's not falling back to a centralized method of transport like messaging a peer over the already established internet. Which should only happen if there's no other way to get from point A to point B, it's not a long term solution, it's an intermediate requirement that has to exist until there are more nodes between points and nobody willing to relay(like the node you described there) it.
>>
>>63736499
Ours is better.
>>
>>63736889
I understand what you're saying now.
The OP says
>/g/ternet would be our own decentralized p2p network running on our own infrastructure, totally disconnected from the clearnet.

My interpretation was that you planned on building your own infrastructure. I didn't realize that your "long distance method of communication" would be the existing internet. That makes sense. Might point is that the *physical* mesh networking part is going to be difficult, and it sounded like that was half of the point of the project.
>>
>>63736962
>I didn't realize that your "long distance method of communication" would be the existing internet.
It is simple one means of long distance communication, if something else is possible and preferable, that should/will be used. The idea is to slowly reduce the reliance on problems like that where possible.

>Might point is that the *physical* mesh networking part is going to be difficult
So be it, I like to believe others think it is worth the trouble of setting it up. I certainly do.

>sounded like that was half of the point of the project
Basically, yes.

The short way to say it is porbably "connecting peers through whatever means possible" which is why it's impossible to say "what hardware are you using?" when it's irrelevant(since anything can be used) and changing(as peers come and go).
>>
>>63737013
>So be it, I like to believe others think it is worth the trouble of setting it up. I certainly do.
>
The short way to say it is porbably "connecting peers through whatever means possible" which is why it's impossible to say "what hardware are you using?" when it's irrelevant(since anything can be used) and changing(as peers come and go).
For the record, I do think the project is a great idea. I'm just trying to tell you guys that the technical challenges you will face creating a physical network will probably be more than you anticipate. Wireless is hard, and these things need to be talked about. When you say that it's impossible to name what hardware you will use, it sounds to me like the project is doomed to failure. I'm sure you accomodate people using *any* type of wireless hardware, but for a robust city mesh you'll actually have to plan for some things. Just setting up Wi-Fi routers in your apartment will not be enough to make a strong network. All I've been trying to say is that building the physical network will be difficult, and it won't just pop into existence when you magically have volunteers.
>>
>>63737078
No offense but you're stating the obvious to a young project that already has a ton of negative naysayers, I hope you understand why that might not be the best thing for you to say first without lurking some more. It comes off as yet another inflammatory "stop trying, it's difficult, dead in the water project".
>>
>>63737127
I like the project. I just wanted to quell some of the more unrealistic ideas in here, especially on the physical network side. Sounds like good progress is being made on the networking layers.

It's not that it's young, it's that people in the thread sounded like they were getting in over their heads. The OP calls for "high powered wireless dishes for City to City relays". Maybe the physical network part *should* be stopped for now. I see a lot of idealism and planning, but I don't see any two computers connected to each other as part of the physical /g/ternet. That's where my grumpiness comes from.
>>
>>63735943
+1 on this. I'm all for thinking ahead but let's try to stay focused so we can get something done. I think spreading the word and getting more people interested and involved is going to help us more at this point.
>>
brainlet here

Would it be possible to use existing infrastructure, like f.ex electricity grid to connect a town to a local intertube?




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