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Why European civilization doesn't have any martial arts compared to Asian civilizations that have long tradition of this?
No /pol/ arguments.
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>>2364305

Depends what you define a 'martial art' to be, anon.

Pretty much all varieties of wrestling and boxing have their origins in Europe.
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>>2364305
They did, most of them died out or became sports
>>
European civilizations did have martial arts, and they're still incredibly popular and widespread. Most people just don't think of them as martial arts because they're seen as common sports. There's a pop culture bias that makes most people think of "martial arts" as a term which refers to Eastern arts because they're exotic and easier to think of in those terms. But unless you restict the meaning of the term to be something nonsensical, boxing, wrestling (including the tons of folk wrestling varieties), and fencing are definitely martial arts.
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>>2364401
Some early scholars did restrict the term "martial" art to those made by and for warriors or soldiers
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>>2364305
Asian martial arts:
>weapons were often banned outright, fascilitating the use of farm tools, unarmed combat and the silly weapons we often see in martial movies
>Euro martial arts aren't an art, they're fairly straightforward and look something akin to brawl or just swinging Willy nilly
>European weapon martial arts are 90% of the time gleaned from outdated manuals from the 14th-15th centuries; they're pretty techniques in them and some skilled practitioners will occasionally show them off on the tube
>asian buddhists also value health and physical fitness, the shaolin monks (yes the same ones from the Kung fu flicks) originally developed rigorous exercises so they can stay and shape and meditate upon the mysteries of Buddhism or what not
If anything in this is wrong feel free to respon and tell me
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>>2364412
And boxing, fencing, and wrestling all began for that purpose, and were used in that context in the past. Realistically, most martial arts nowadays are practiced in sporting contexts and for recreation. Western arts are nowhere near alone in that regard. That's why sportified version of eastern arts are always more popular than their (usually) older counterparts.
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>>2364416
You're correct. this isn't /pol/ there is no need that we defend Europeans having martial arts when, like you said, they were something hardly more than a brawl. certainly can't compare with lifestyles that are arts such as kung fu that requires tremendous devotion, concentration and endless repetition and self improvement is the core of it
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>>2364416
Most asian marital arts prior to this century were weapon arts

martial art as a term orignially described European arts Asians had there own terms. "bujutusu" "Wushu"
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Europe has boxing, wrestling, pankration and many schools of fencing and archery
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>>2364412
what happens when a European loses his weapon? he has to either box or wrestle. What happens when two plate-armored Europeans fight? They wrestle each other until one of them is pinned and stabbed through a weak point, usually the neck, face, thigh, or joints.

Wrestling is a martial art.
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>>2364434
>Finally being correct on 4chan, on /his/ nonetheless
That's one strike off the bucket list
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>>2364453
Knights often yielded
In some accounts knights would be specifically taken and ransomed off
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>>2364453
Not all grappling is the same though I agree the definition is too narrow
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>>2364444
>>2364401
>>2364352
Boxing and Archery are not martial arts. Boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually. And archery is a sport or hobby.
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>>2364478
>Boxing is how humans fight instinctually
You have to be taught how to punch correctly
Instinctual human fighting would be:
Run towards the person
Flail
Tackle
Hit the other person with your hands once he's on the ground
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>>2364416
>>2364434

>Boxing
>Wrestling
>Fencing
>HEMA in general

>these look like a drunk street brawl

kill yourselves you fucking weeaboos
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>>2364434

>certainly can't compare with lifestyles that are arts such as kung fu that requires tremendous devotion

Any martial art can (and often does) require tremendous devotion to gain anything from, there is nothing inherently superior about eastern martial arts in this regard. Indeed, the infatuation we have with eastern martial arts nowadays seems to be deeply misguided by the Cult of Bruce Lee, and, more broadly, a permeating subculture of Asiaphilia.
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>>2364496
Relax mi amigo,
No one said drunk street brawl, it was A brawl.
And rules in those sports prevent you from doing somethings
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>>2364434
>they were something hardly more than a brawl.
What do you mean by this?

>certainly can't compare with lifestyles that are arts such as kung fu that requires tremendous devotion, concentration and endless repetition and self improvement is the core of it
Okay this is an obvious troll. Kung Fu is a complete horseshit cult/martial art.
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>>2364478

>boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually

I can tell you that the typical person can't throw a punch worth shit, let alone use proper footwork to dodge efficiently - someone fighting "instinctually" will try to tackle the other person first thing

>archery is a sport

Not an argument. So is Karate, Judo and Taekwondo.
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>>2364512
Not him, but kung fu still have alot of interesting stuff in it. Though he is totally wrong about things like wrestling and Hema
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>>2364305
>Europe has/had no codified systems of fighting

Are you fucking serious?
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>>2364434
Kung Fu is pantomime. The idea it is useful in a real fight or combat situation is frankly embarrassing chang.
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>>2364537
It's not supposed to be used in real fights
Think of it as doing art with your body
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Fencing. And its antecedent roots, Spanish and Italian schools of swordsmanship are martial arts.

>>2364537
This. Asian martial arts are useless masturbatory excuses for shallow chauvinism, see Ip Man.
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>>2364529
Name one Kung Fu fighter in MMA.
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>>2364543
It was used in real fights, heck there are still traditional kung fu guys involved in Chinese wrestling, push hands and sanshou.
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>>2364554
Do you count shanshou as a form of MMA?

In any case I never said modern kung fu was suitable for limited rules competition, just that in included some interesting techniques and concepts.
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>>2364553
I'd make an exception for judo. It's useful. Karate, Kung Fu etc are all garbage though and the practitioners are snake oil salesmen like Bruce was.
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>>2364305
Why do these theads turn into mudslinging between Euroboos and weeaboos?

European and Asian fighting traditions have more in common than not
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>>2364553
>>2364564

Karate and Judo are definitely not useless martial arts, Karate (depending on the style) is still one of the most effective martial arts out there. Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background and use it in their style as well
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>>2364578
Because my dad is better than your dad is the typical line of thoughts that govern this kind of thread.
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>>2364564
Judo = Greco-Roman wrestling with gis
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>>2364582
>Karate (depending on the style) is still one of the most effective martial arts out there. Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background and use it in their style as well
Eh, karate isn't the worst choice but I think boxing or Muay thai would be better.
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>>2364591
So 4chan is full of people with father issues?
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>>2364582

>Many fighters in the UFC come from a Karate background

Many is an exaggeration. And I can't really think of any who have been that successful aside from Wonderboy and Lyoto. A bunch of guys and girls technically cite karate as early influences, but you never really see it evidenced in their fights - GSP for example.
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>>2364305
For anyone interested in what kung fu was like to the first westerners to really study it in an academic fashion I offer this article.

http://kogenbudo.org/i-htm/
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>>2364305
>Europeans don't have martial arts
>What is fencing
>What is boxing
>What is Savate
>What is wrestling
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>>2364478
humans don't "fight instinctually", there nothing instinctual about it. We don't fight naturally, we flight
We're pack animals that stay together for strength and run the fuck away when we're alone. We have to fight our instincts in order to actually stand and fight, the only real exception to this is two males fighting over a female, but the instinct there is to tackle, pin, choke, and groundpound. When I was a kid and I got into fights, we'd just tackle each other and go for choke holds because that's natural.

The human fist is weak, fragile, and clearly not intended for combat. If you've ever punched someone in a fight well, you'd know that you watch away from it with a fractured or broken finger even if you win, because even successful punches are damaging your fingers. Punching is definitely not natural, especially considering you can't really do it effectively unless you're buff, and natural humans aren't buff, they're extremely thin.

Wrestling and boxing require training, practice, lots of working out, and pain tolerance for every time you damage your hand during a successful punch. None of it is natural, our bodies were not built for close quarters combat, it's why we hunted with throwing spears and kept our distance from prey until it was in a weakened state. Our bodies are so naturally weak that even small apes are leagues more powerful than us. Looking at a baboon you'd never guess that tiny little ape is actually three times as strong as you are because unlike you, his body actually is built for fighting.
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>>2364772
We still have the instincts, we tend to fight like weak apes. we (poorly ) grapple and use big overhead hammer fists
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>>2364799
>overhead hammer fists

exactly, because this is hitting people with your hand, not your fingers like a traditional punch. "The jab," the cornerstone of boxing, is certainly not natural
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>>2364823
many striking arts use open handed strikes for that reason
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>>2364622
No, father issues means we don't claim our dad can beat your dad, we don't believe in the strength or masculinity of our father because it wasn't properly expressed or shared with us.
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>>2364433
That is a questionable assertion, and in any case even if we cant trace something back to war training doesnt mean it is any such thing in its current form. modern fencing has almost nothing to do with functional swordwork and wrestling and boxing do not consider weapons at all.

If we are going by that admittedly pedantic definition, most popular Asian martial arts are not really martial arts ether. The guy who created that definition called most of them civilian fighting arts
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>>2364305
bumping with actual content about historical martial arts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mo4CR7qJk
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European civilians were allowed to carry weaponry(sometimes not swords though), so basically nobody would go outside their house without a dagger or a shortsword, from a duke to a peasant.

Hell, there are even surviving treatises with sickle combat;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97neHuFfPLI
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>>2364512
>Okay this is an obvious troll. Kung Fu is a complete horseshit cult/martial art.
I can see where you're coming from but that is just ignorant. First off "kung fu" is a very wide term. Second even the most asp accepted martial arts can practised ii n a stupid way (watch black and white footage from muay thai). Third the cultural revolution and introduction of fire arms changed the context of thr practicioner a lot. There is no way to tell what the original styles were like.
The shaolin styles laid ground for other arts like karate which developed to a crane kick knocking out vitor belfort and randy couture.
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short documentary on the origins of kendo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKyj7-uxoIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQGqTfM06o
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>>2364305
Romans, unlike greeks, looked down on physical sports and I guess everyone inherited that attitude.
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Just wanna clear out one thing for everyone in this thread: Martial Arts =/= Martial Techniques.
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>>2364496
only fencing has a slight bit of art in it
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>>2367988
Here is Alexander C Bennett thesis about the emergence, evolution and waning of kenjutsu and then rising, transformation and nationalists roots of kendo. Bennett is himself a 7th dan kendoka. The thesis is still pretty easy to follow if you are a little bit knowledgeable with japan's culture and history.

https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10092/6869/Thesis_fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

And here's an old video about early kendo schools and a peak at Jigen-ryu kata training, which isn't very remote to what's done nowadays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjnJG75s0pM
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http://www.thearma.org/essays/G&WinRF.htm#.VAO8Ddm9LCR

Wrestling has always been the dominant martial art. It has a long history of dedicated, effective training methods and disciplined practitioners. It can be easily practiced and a good wrestler can dictate where a fight ends up. There's a reason why soldiers everywhere, in all of history trained in some form of grappling/wrestling.
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>>2364305

>Why do people who were not forbidden weapons not abandon them?
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>>2364305
>Why European civilization doesn't have...
Grammatically incorrect, it should be
>>Why doesn't European civilization have...
or
>>Why does European civilization not have...

Or even:
>>European civilization does not have...
>>Why?
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>>2368772
I thought his explanation of the decline of kenjutsu here was a bit simplistic, but this was obviously made for a popular audience rather than academics are experienced martial artists

I would also question whether the schools they picked are the best reps for koryu kenjutsu shinai shiai. I understand many schools are hesitant to publicly show that training But I can think of one or two schools like maniwa nen ryu that would put on a much better show.
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>>2369110
Maniwa nen-ryu use of the fukuro-shinai is quite different to what the 18-19th centuries school did with shinai and bogu though.
Also, much better show for what purpose exactly? Even internal shinai shiai in the Itto-ryu descendants isn't there for show.
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>>2364478
No punching isn't really instinctual at all. Humans and pretty much any animal similar to us go for tackles and chokes/ claws or straight for vitals with claws and shit.

Kangaroos kick if possible from a proper distance but are really willing to strangle/choke other roos if close an do so with ease or just clawing you. clawing/ tearing beats punches because infects can become fatal and bleeding out, that's why knives are dangerous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt1C9qmuh_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIRT7lf8byw
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>>2369178
Badn word choice, what I mean is the shinai shiai of that school is very impressive to watch and would leave a positive impression with both those who practice swordsmanship and those who dont.

This documentary is very much about entertainment even if the arts it shows are not
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>>2369382
Oh and bad understanding, you were twice talking about the french video right? I thought you were talking about the thesis...

I agree that Maniwa Nen-ryu is quite striking to see and hear, both in their particular kata practice and shiai like stuff (or even padded kata practice), Jigen-ryu without the characteristic enkyo kiai heard feels a little bit mundane (which is quite crazy given how special this school looks like)... But yeah, the description is completely off, they even say that the jigen-ryu practitioners are priests, which is plain ridiculous of course.
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>>2369462
No no, I was talking about this

>>2367988

I like Jigen ryu though many people think its a joke when they first see it.
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>>2364478
>Boxing and Archery are not martial arts.
>And archery is a sport or hobby
Except they are very much martial arts and you have to rigorously train to be good at them. Historically in both East and West they even have names designating them as such. And even their practitioners have designated titles
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_boxing
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABd%C5%8D
>Boxing is just the way humans fight instinctually.
Then why do humans who don't know shit about fighting and have never trained "instinctually" suck ass
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>>2364305
because they actually fought and killed people over in europe instead of dance around like ninnies in asia with their "art".
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>>2368762
Modern fencing just looks like an extremely minimalistic simulation of fighting. To the point where it can't even be called a martial art, or even an art.

Comparing fencing to martial arts would be like comparing a water gun fight to the Battle of Stalingrad.
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Did everyone in this thread conveniently forget about the olympics ?

Wrestling, boxing and pankration are all martial arts. Through competition they develop techniques which are just as efficient as the ones the Chinese developped.
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>>2369947
You realize European sword arts were structured virtually the same as Asian ones?
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>>2364416
>>Euro martial arts aren't an art, they're fairly straightforward and look something akin to brawl or just swinging Willy nilly

fuck off with your eastern mysticism, boxing and wrestling are incredibly complicated and technical
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>>2364416
>If anything in this is wrong feel free to respon and tell me
>weapons were often banned outright
There were often weapons bans, But the upper class were often still allowed to own weapons. Other bans were just bans in name only. the extent to which you're implying weapons were banned is otherwise a meme
>fascilitating the use of farm tools,
Also a meme. Weapons like kama, and other scythe weapons as well as other weapons commonly said to be "farm tools" were seen as proper weapons, even since their inception. Ancient people/warriors also differentiated between these tools for farming and actual weapons. They had scythes for cutting plants, and scythes for cutting throats
>Euro martial arts aren't an art, they're fairly straightforward and look something akin to brawl or just swinging Willy nilly
See below, there were names for these arts, they were seen as martial traditions proper,and their practitioners even had specific titles akin to 'Karateka' or 'Judoka'
>European weapon martial arts are 90% of the time gleaned from outdated manuals from the 14th-15th centuries; they're pretty techniques in them and some skilled practitioners will occasionally show them off on the tube
Go take a HEMA class
>asian buddhists also value health and physical fitness, the shaolin monks (yes the same ones from the Kung fu flicks) originally developed rigorous exercises so they can stay and shape and meditate upon the mysteries of Buddhism or what not
Kung Fu predates Buddhisms arrival to China and the various styles of Shaolin Kung Fu were either already practiced styles, styles brought to the temple, styles based on ther styles with a Buddhist/Shaolin touch. Even the myth that Bodhidarma came to the Shaolin Temple is evidenced by both ancient and modern scholars to be just that, a myth. And it's even evidenced he never went to China at all.
>(cont.)
>>
>(cont.)
>>2370175
>>2364537
>Kung Fu is pantomime. The idea it is useful in a real fight or combat situation is frankly embarrassing chang.
>>2364553
>This. Asian martial arts are useless masturbatory excuses for shallow chauvinism, see Ip Man.
>>2364564
>Karate, Kung Fu etc are all garbage though and the practitioners are snake oil salesmen like Bruce was.
I'd bet money all of you have never practiced martial arts in your lives and your comments are so retarded they have to be bait and it's not even good bait
>>2364543
>It's not supposed to be used in real fights
They were and chinese martial artists even took part in wars. Your also talking about the term "martial arts" anon. Nearly all of them came from from the battlefield or are linked to styles/techniques used there. Also pic related.
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>>2370175
*I meant to post See >>2369939 and not "See below"
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pssh stupid gaijin
any monkey could pull this off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rtp8guIZo
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>>2364537
>Kung Fu is pantomime
Unarmed combat was meant for conditioning not the battlefield.

>>2370180
>They were and chinese martial artists even took part in wars.
This http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-ghost-faced-warrior-monks-of.html
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>>2370105
I usually think of boxing and wrestling as martial sports. They teach skills useful for fighting, but unless your training them in something like an MMA gym they are geared towards their own sport and rule set

is a martial sport the same as a martial art: a system to prepare people for combat? that depends, in this case you could say they are a subset
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>>2371160
What do you mean by "combat" though? An unarmed street fight? A medieval battle?
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>>2364305
How many times are we going to have this damn thread?
>>
Was Bruce Lee a charlatan?

He seemed kind of arrogant to me.

I like Jackie Chan though, he seems like a funny guy.
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>>2371732
Yeah he probably was
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>>2371685
Both of those are types of combat
>>
After reading all these posts Im surprised and disappointed /his/ is so autistic on this topic.

Unarmed martial arts was practiced around the world for sport, strength/conditioning, but primarily so they could defend themselves and kill their enemy in case they lost their weapon in combat. Obviously not ideal because you never want to lose your weapon but shit happens. Unarmed Martial Arts is to help a soldier keep fighting rather than losing his weapon and getting caught with his pants down. Idk how the fuck this meme that "hand-to-hand combat wasnt meant for the battlefield" shit got started

Best example of Martial art turning into a sport is Jiu Jitsu and Judo, along with Karate and Kung Fu practicing katas (forms)
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>>2372776
>along with Karate and Kung Fu practicing katas (forms)
Them practicing kata is a form of sportification for you...?
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>>2372831

its debatable but personally, yes i consider it a sport. Is ballet considered a sport or an art?
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>>2372776
some had to hand combat is definitely for off the battlefield. you dont box with someone in armor. and armored grappling always assumed the other guy was armed and you probably were too.

The solo kata of kung fu and karate were always a thing, though they were probably less emphasized in the past, especially as aesthetic form. from what information is available chi gung (kiko) and two man drills were far more prevalent in the past. In this regard they are closer to other martial arts in places such as mainland Japan, India and Europe than they often appear today.
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>>2372918
Traditionnal styles used a lot of forms in China and Japan, it's certainly true for Japan at least.
How come more kata devolve into sportification?
>yes i consider it a sport
What is this "it" you consider a sport?
Ballet would more likely be an art than a sport but what does it have to do with anything really?
Many ex-ballet dancers turned out to be very good martial artists btw...
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>>2364305
Boxing and wrestling are martial arts. The difference is that these are marketed more as sports than Martial arts per se.

Furthermore western martial arts rose and fell with the times, the far east kept their martial arts alive through the years as part of their culture and not necessarily a sport.
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>>2364478
To add to what other anons said: hitting somebody with a weapon, such as a stick or a stone, is much more natural for a human than punching. Holding a solid object and hitting somebody with it is something a baby can do instinctually. Punching somebody with a fist and dealing actual damage without getting your hand broken requires serious training.
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>>2373056

You're right but you're thinking medieval warfare. For roman-greco boxing you have to remember they didn't have heavy iron/steel armor.

>>2373063

>What is "it" ?

The competition of who can perform the best kata is what I consider a sport but outside of competition I say it's a an art. My question about ballet being an art or sport was my point all along, same applies for dancing and figure skating.
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>>2373263
They had armor and trying to box with someone carrying a knife or a dagger or a shield would be insane compared to closing the distance and grappling
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>>2364305
How samurai actually trained, aka what "traditional marital arts" actually look like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRfQjj8ltEg
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>>2375381
And interesting discussion of that method of training and its history

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umoCLwng1r4
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>>2376635
>>2364305
Bumping with some japanese greatsword bullying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWtEBW8cmAo
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>>2364305

OP, do you want -do or do you want -jutsu

-jutsu means your coach/instructor/sensei isn't goig to waste practice time focusing on developing you into a happy and productive member of scoiety. He just wants you to work on your technique and buid your stamina.

-do means he wants you to focus on your schooling and keep the neighborhood free of garbage and broken windows.

Practically all western martial arts fall in the -jutsu category.
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>>2364478
how do you even define martial arts exactly
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>>2377521
This school always seems so specialized to me: drawing a long sword in extremely close quarters might be useful but what about all the other situations your likely to be in?
>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts_manual#Historical_European_martial_arts
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>>2364478
Boxing has all the hallmarks of a martial art. Different styles, blocking, stances, different types of blows with different pros and cons.

Saying it is how humans fight intrinsically is like saying Taekwondo is intrinsic because humans kick each other.
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>>2364305
>Why European civilization doesn't have any martial arts compared to Asian civilizations that have long tradition of this?

there are over 200 major european martial arts manuals which survive, dated from between 1295 and 1800. there are multiple later examples too.

here are some examples of stances and techniques from a 16th century one, Paulus Hector Mair's "de arte athletica", compared to japanese schools of swordsmanship from the 17-18th century:
>>
>>2378223
My understanding is this, it's good to know how to draw from a close situation as a constraint, if you have room, you'll still draw short and not expose too much of your arms, this is especially important with very long swords. They probably do the forms while seated just like in the basic iaido kata so that the cuts aren't given too wide and to strengthen the legs.
Those are kata, training forms, it doesn't mean that the waza, the actual practical techniques look exactly like this. There is a lot of little things in those kata that are very subtle, wrists movements, feet movements, all of those transfer directly when applying practical techniques.

We should consider that they only show the basic techniques, maybe they have more direct standing kata or stuff akin to tachi uchi no kurai, it's hard to know. Also, as of now, all of their practitioners also do Ono-ha Itto-ryu so it's more like specialized training.
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>>2378306
i.33, Walpurgis. the oldest surviving manual, written around 1295-1305.
German, it contains more than 100 illustrations and a volume of text explaining processes for single-handed sword and buckler (round shield)
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>>2378306
>here are some examples of stances and techniques from a 16th century one, Paulus Hector Mair's "de arte athletica", compared to japanese schools of swordsmanship from the 17-18th century:
There are four different european manuals in this picture (Mair, Talhoffer, Meyer, PPvD) and it's compared to kendo no kamae, not koryu.
Besides, there is more to a martial arts than basic stances... Two martial arts can have similar-ish stances but very different core principles and way to use them.
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>>2378323
Fiore "the flower of battle", an italian fighting manual from c.1410.

covers armoured and un-armoured combat, with long sword, dagger, pollax(pictured), and unarmed wrestling.
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>>2378306
Those are modern kendo varieties of those stances. The person who made it would have found more similarities if you used pictures of an older style
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>>2364305
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo

cmon man
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>>2378352
>>2378335
>>2378323
>>2378306
Of course its worth noting that a living art is a bit different from a reconstruction based on manuals
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>>2378333
>There are four different european manuals in this picture (Mair, Talhoffer, Meyer, PPvD)

mostly from Mair (5 to 3) and I avoided going into specific names because people tend to have their eyes glaze over if you start listing too many names they've never heard. - be it Meyer and Mair, Ringeck or kendo, koryu and ying-tong-iddle-i-po.

Same reason I just gave a generic summary of oriental there.

anyhow, nice little video showing some of the techniques from Fiore,'s manuscript shown here:>>2378335
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>>2378312
There is no written rule that a sytle has to be complete.

Kata are not waza, BUT unless you have really mastered them kata are a cage, both mentally and physically. They structure how you move and how you approach combat. If all your training is for close in combat from the draw that is all most will be able to do with it, however universal the principles being trained are

Got to hand it to Ono-ha itto ryu for preserving some "exotic" arts along side it
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>>2378361
>Of course its worth noting that a living art is a bit different from a reconstruction based on manuals


its also noted that the "living arts" in asia are invariably far younger. If you want "living" arts in western europe, then you have fencing, greek wrestling, singlestick, which managed to *just* survive in england, and a few other wrestling ones.

strangely enough, longsword from medieval germany died out because technology moved on, and the weapons used for them became obsolete. Same as the single-handed sword and buckler died out, the pollaxe died off, Pascha's fighting manual for the half-pike died out when pike and shot was replaced with musket and bayonet, and indeed, how bayonet fighting as a martial art died out when the musket and bayonet were replaced with the magazine-fed rifle.

Pic is from Pascha's manual of fighting with the half-pike, from 1660.
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>>2378369
Being falsely precise (you name one master as the source of all pictures) is even worse than being wrong, you know the name of the masters, realize that it shows different stuff (sometimes more than a century apart for Mair and PPvD), but you purposedly misinform people who don't know better? Why didn't you simply say german masters?

And then it's straight misinformation about the japanese stuff, it's not
>japanese schools of swordsmanship from the 17-18th century
It's kendo stances, just that, it's not a simplification, it's just wrong, why not say japanese stances if you want to keep it simple?

If you start naming, go all the way or not at all, because your post is just bady sorted informations. Also comparing japanese stances to european ones says very little about what they actually are, it's more false leadings.
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>>2378397
>its also noted that the "living arts" in asia are invariably far younger.

Not sure what you mean, there are schools going back circa 600 years.

>strangely enough, longsword from medieval germany died out because technology moved on,

Alot of stuff survived in Japan because it was a closed society, So while new styles kept developing the weapons stayed similar with only minor changes to weight and balance.

After that it just became a point of cultural pride, they even persevered some WWII combatives in "budo" form like Toyama ryu and jukendo
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>>2378392
>There is no written rule that a sytle has to be complete.
I don't really understand what you mean, but I'd say that it's perfectly fine to have something very specialized. Maybe one master thought "eh I really like this precise thing, let's develop this a little bit" and it's cool. We could even say that kenjutsu alone is incomplete without knowing how to face spear or naginata, it's a little bit silly though and it doesn't mean anything on the actual worth of kenjutsu.

Kata being a cage, they are a necessary step at first, I won't go into shuhari, but they have their use, you just go to know why you are doing them for. Plus it's a great way to communicate with people you've never met (but who practice the same art). You need to be open-minded, that's all in the shuhari mindset, kata are just one part of the training, you have to start with a foundation before expanding.

Ono-ha Itto-ryu also preserve this strange O-Naginata style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wem9KZeFKEA
They just hide their love for oversized weapons in their preserved styles...
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>>2378397
Funny that you point Pascha's half-pike because he relates the use of this weapon to the french tradition of the "baton à deux bouts" (two-ended stick) which kept on going up until the 19th century and was preserved or evolved as the Baton de Joinville (among others). So this tradition (which was a very strong french thing, it was even used in 17th c. fencing schools to prevent italian masters to serve in France as it was a needed course that they weren't taught) is somehow still alive in France.
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>>2378432
>I don't really understand what you mean,

Just what you said: A style could be about specialized knowledge

The kata as a cage quote actually comes from Amdur and yes he described how the cage is unlocked eventually.

Apparently Chokugen ryu once included Bo a yari with a cross bar, I think Ive seen the bo but I dont know if the sojutsu is still preserved
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>>2378418
>Alot of stuff survived in Japan because it was a closed society,

yes, but saying that the reason the arts survived for so long there was because it was an incredibly rigid, stagnant social order where innovation was disapproved of, and change was avoided, while Europe was in a state of rapid social and technological progress is the sort of thing that has the weaboos up in arms in indignant protest...

(hell, their sword-making technique was developed at about the same time as the viking age...... and was in use all the way through to the 18th C with relatively minimal differences, while the Europeans went from viking age tech to shear steels, to folded homogeneous steels, to homogenoeous steels, to bessmer process and mass-produced industry.)

anyway, have a stab in the dick courtesy of Codex Wallerstein, c.1420-40, Germany.
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>>2378446
pascha's the only one I had a picture of to hand which is 17th C - and the french baton is interesting, but there's no way I'm ever going to try that one (or half-staff.).

I'm strangely attached to having my hands, and having the bones in them remain intact....


Pic: wrestling from Fabian von Auerswald, dated to 1539.
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>>2378447
>Apparently Chokugen ryu once included Bo a yari with a cross bar, I think Ive seen the bo but I dont know if the sojutsu is still preserved
It's always a bit sad to when you know that a style has lost a good chunk of its curriculum, but it happened to most if not all of them, it's part of the living tradition I suppose. And this is when the whole school, very popular or not, doesn't disappear entirely (yes Kyoshin Meichi-ryu, I'm thinking about you).
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>>2378454
>yes, but saying that the reason the arts survived for so long there was because it was an incredibly rigid, stagnant social order where innovation was disapproved o

Thats a bit of an oversimplifiation. While the social order was in theory rigid the martial arts radically changed during the edo period. Schools that developed then used radically different footwork and tactics than older styles and developed things like the shinai and bogu to safely spar. Older schools often added material or got rid of older material which they found irrelevant to keep up with the times. Change in martial arts was relatively common

Jujutsu mainly developed in the edo era, taking stuff from older battlefield systems, Chinese concepts like internal power and probably sumo

Japanese swords also changed both in the morphology and the way they were forged over the years. Not as much as European blades but enough to be noticeable
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>>2378454
>it was an incredibly rigid, stagnant social order where innovation was disapproved of, and change was avoided
The thing is that it's false... the whole development of shinai geiko is one proof of that for instance. Japanese love to pretend that they never change their ways and all, super traditional, but they fool even themselves.
Even former sogobujutsu and "schools of war" changed their ways in the Edo era, you just need to go into the big town and stop practicing on the grass but only on wooden floor to entirely modify your footwork in a few generations.

The Edo era saw a lot of changes in the kenjutsu styles, starting with the development of kenjutsu-only ryuha for starters.
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>>2378477
Is that the police system? I admit its never held more than a passing interest to me.

I do wish more of kanimaki ryu had survived than just its sword drawing




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