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s there any more overrated military unit in history than the Waffen SS? They were terrible in combat, and were meant to be Germany's elite troops. They performed worse than the regular Wehrmacht by far, and all they ever managed to do was commit atrocities that pissed off the locals into the arms of the partisans.

>3rd SS Division
>Fight in France
>Everyone else is kicking France's ass, and the 3rd SS division's greatest contribution was machine gunning 97 British POWs
>Lose 300 officers in the campaign
>Invade Soviet Union
>Everyone else is kicking the Red Army's ass all the way to Moscow
>3rd SS division gets encircled in Demyansk and lose 80% of their men

How about the 36th Waffen Grenadiers? Dirlewanger Brigade
>Biggest contribution to the war was a massacre of Polish women, children, doctors and babies in Wola
>Have a 315% casualty rate fighting Polish partisans, not even a real army
>The entire unit is replaced by reinforcements 3 fucking times fighting the Polish partisans

>The war in the Soviet Union proceeded well at first, but the cost to the Waffen-SS was extreme: by late October the Leibstandarte was at half strength due to enemy action and dysentery that swept through the ranks.[69]
>Das Reich lost 60% of its strength and was still to take part in the Battle of Moscow. The unit was decimated in the following Soviet offensive.
> The Der Führer Regiment was reduced to 35 men out of the 2,000 that had started the campaign in June.[69]
> Altogether, the Waffen-SS had suffered 43,000 casualties.[69]
>>
>>3682782
>During Manstein's counteroffensive, the SS Panzer Corps, without support from the Luftwaffe or neighbouring German formations, broke through the Soviet line and advanced on Kharkov.[86] Despite orders to encircle Kharkov from the north, the SS Panzer Corps directly attacked in the Third Battle of Kharkov on 11 March.[87]
>The German offensive cost the Red Army an estimated 70,000 casualties but the house-to-house fighting in Kharkov was particularly bloody for the SS Panzer Corps, which lost approximately 44% of its strength by the time operations ended in late March.[88]
>>
>>3682782
Stormcucks and Wehraboo reenactors BTFO?
>>
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Nice bolsheboo bait

Dirlewanger was never part of the SS you fucking idiot btw (the division was only formed from random remnants shortly before they were smashed in the Halle cauldron), they reported directly to Himmler and Kaminski's slavs (who along with him perpetrated most of the actual war crimes and were later lumped in as "the germans" by post-war allied propaganda) were tried and many of them executed by the SS judge Konrad Morgen in accordance with german field law.

Also what those slavic axis soldiers did pales in comparison to any of the atrocities perpetrated by soviets or polacks against german citizens by far throughout the war
>>
>>3682783
if you meant to cite this as a positive result, a 25% loss of personel usually means the unit is depleted, a 44% loss means its destroyed

these are the actions why "divisions" operated less than 10 armor and battalions of pz. grenadiers with 50 ppl

wasteful,, untoughtful and ignoring direct orders for particulary nothing
>>
>>3682782
>>Have a 315% casualty rate fighting Polish partisans, not even a real army
jesus
how
>>
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>>3682802
Even pissraeli historians openly admit that the Waffen SS was the most formidable military unit in history

But keep deluding yourself with ur own bait lmao
>>
>>3682813
>it was the bestest unit ever in history.
>>
>>3682813
Well yeah I assume early to mid war they were better than the average Red Army unit because of better equipment. That's not really saying much if you don't have the number to back it up. The beginning of Operation Barbarossa was like shooting slavs in a gulag. They still somehow found a way to fuck up bad.
>>
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>>3682834
educate yourself retard
>>
>>3682805
Is this bait?
Kaminski was executed for stealing shit, not for committing atrocities, you stormfag liar.
>>
>>3682805
>Bolsheboo
The only thing I hate more than Nazis are Commies. But the Red Army doesn't have a reputation as being elite and competent super soldiers like the Waffen SS does.
>>3682808
>positive result
Nah I didn't have any more characters left to post that bit.
>>
>>3682782
You're a classic example of reactionary revisionist. The common notion is that the SS were an elite fighting group of soldiers. This extend true to only some SS formations but is completely false in regards to others. So, the retard you are, you go the complete opposite way and pretend the SS were shit.
>>
>>3682805
>Dirlewanger was never part of the SS you fucking idiot
Lmao what?
>Oskar Dirlewanger (26 September 1895 – 7 June 1945) was a German military officer (SS-Oberführer) who served as the founder and commander of the infamous Nazi SS penal unit "Dirlewanger" during World War II.
>At the beginning of World War II, Dirlewanger volunteered for the Waffen-SS and received the rank of Obersturmführer. He eventually became the commander of the so-called Dirlewanger Brigade (at first designated as a battalion, later expanded to a regiment and a brigade, and eventually a division), composed originally of a small group of former poachers along with soldiers of a more conventional background.
>>
>>3682851
Good thing i'm not a historian and just a shitposter on a mongolian antisemitic aktion board
>>
>>3682782
>Is there any more overrated military unit in history than the Waffen SS?

Unironically USSOCOM given how routinely they fuck up

>crash helicopters into each other in Iran
>crash helicopters into each other again in Grenada
>head of Seal Team Six winds up in prison for fraud
>Navy SEAL team nearly wiped out by a bunch of Panamanians who they probably could've just bribed with some tequila and cocaine
>ODA 525 on a SCUD hunt gets busted by a bunch of 12 year old Iraqi school girls and didn't even bother to rape them
>DUDE LET'S FLY AN AC-130 OVER AL-KHAFJI IN DAYLIGHT LMAO
>Black Hawk Down.jpg
>calling in an airstrike on Hamid Karzai
>Mazar-i-Sharif POW massacre bungalo
>failing to get bin Laden when he was holed up in a cave in Tora Bora
>shooting up multiple weddings
>Operation Anaconda
>all of the Iraq War
>Operation Red Wings
>wrecking a billion dollar helicopter during the raid to kill bin Laden
>SEALs literally racing each other to kill bin Laden first so they can get the better book deal (I'm not fucking kidding)
>Navy SEALs spilling state secrets to a major video game developer and the game is still a piece of shit (again, I'm not fucking kidding)
>the the phrase "bury the hatchet" literally
>that Chinook full of Navy SEALs that got blasted out of the sky
>Benghazi, the never ending scandal
>walking right into an ambush in Niger
>Navy SEALs murder a Green Beret after he figures out they're planning on misappropriating Army funds even though their whole existence is a waste of taxpayer dollars

And these guys are supposed to be the Tier One Operator badasses who will fight all our wars for us in nanosuits in the future
>>
>>3682782

>be Nazi Germany in 1940
>create combat outfit composed of thugs and criminals "convicted of major crimes such as premeditated murder, rape, arson and burglary"
>"terrifying rabble" of "cut-throats, renegades, sadistic morons, and cashiered rejects from other units"
>unit turns out to be an almost comical band of fuckups who were kicked out of every major field command they were assigned to and whose most noteworthy achievement was sadism and brutality that appalled even the most notorious architects of the Holocaust

>be Louisiana in 1861
>create combat outfit composed of “the lowest scum of the lower Mississippi...adventurous wharf rats, thieves, and outcasts...and bad characters generally”
> the worst men I ever saw…. I understand that they are mostly wharf rats from New Orleans, and Major Wheat is the only man who can do anything with them. They were constantly fighting with each other. They were always ready to fight, and it made little difference to them who they fought.”
>unit turns out to be one of the best in the Confederate Army, earning a legendary reputation for being utterly fearless and hard-fighting, becoming the Army of Northern Virginia's premiere shock troops alongside the Texas and Stonewall Brigades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Tigers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS

Where did we get it so right where the Krauts got it so wrong?

Did they fear the Southern Warrior?

Also bonus question: What would happen if a nine month pregnant Anne Frank mysteriously teleported into the middle of a Confederate Army camp of Louisiana Tigers?

Would they be courtly Southern gentlemen and take her to meet General Lee? Sing Bonnie Blue flag and Rose of Alabamy by the campfire with her? Share their sweet tea and hardtacks with her? Teach her to do the Rebel Yell?
>>
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>>3682875
>Where did we get it so right where the Krauts got it so wrong?

Krauts are primitive brutes with the strategic intellect of a two year old with Down Syndrome. You know Max Hass from Wolfenstein: The Jew Colossus? He's one of the smarter ones.

>Did they fear the Southern Warrior?

Everyone fears the Southern Warrior

>What would happen if a nine month pregnant Anne Frank mysteriously teleported into the middle of a Confederate Army camp of Louisiana Tigers?

I'm not even gonna dignify that with an answer.
>>
>>3682875
W-who got her pregnant?
>>
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>>3682897

Who do you think?
>>
>>3682866
Its no surprise they're similar to the SS, given how the US tried to copy the le epic germans xDDDDD instead of using its previous military ties to the successful French army which had served it well throughout its history
>>
>>3682923

Marine Corps Scout Snipers literally LARP as SS. Highly trained snipers actually prefer to emulate mass murderers who thought killing kids at point blank range made them badasses rather than someone actually worthy of admiration such as Simo Hayha. Mind you the first USMC Scout Sniper killed in Iraq was Jewish.

Speaking of snipers, Chris "don't google Craft International at Boston Marathon" Kyle and the rest of Seal Team 10 committed blatant copyright infringement with their stupid Punisher unit patches
>>
>When the Slovak National Uprising began in late August 1944, the newly formed brigade was committed to action. The conduct of the brigade played a large part in putting down the rebellion, and by 30 October the uprising was put down. With the outcome of the war no longer in doubt, large numbers of communist and socialist political prisoners began applying to join the Dirlewanger in the hope of defecting to the Soviets.[21] SS-Brigadeführer Fritz Schmedes, disgraced former commander of the 4th SS Polizei Division, was assigned to the Dirlewanger by Himmler as punishment for refusing to carry out orders. With his extensive combat experience, Schmedes became the unofficial advisor to Dirlewanger on front line combat.

>In December, the brigade was sent to the front in Hungary. While several newly formed battalions made up of communist and socialist volunteers fell apart
>>
>>3682782

>get BTFO by barely trained Red Army peasants
>get BTFO by partisans all over Europe
>get BTFO by GIs

SS was a fucking meme
>>
>>3682866
>calling in an airstrike on Hamid Karzai

nah good call
>>
>>3682933
what the shit?
A bunch of GIs were LARPing as SS troops in afghanistan?
>>
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>>3682805
>Dirlewanger was never part of the SS
>He just had an SS rank and commanded a unit subordinated to the SS
>>
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>>3682993

They got into because Scout Sniper is often abbreviated as "SS" and didn't seemed bothered by the fact the Nazis are hated everywhere outside of /pol/ and this stupid gimmick would reflect badly on the Corps and the United States as a whole.
>>
>>3682875
>Where did we get it so right where the Krauts got it so wrong?
I don't know, I'd think that the logical result of putting the unit under the command of an alcoholic convicted sex offender would result in Dirlewanger-esque incidents
>>
>>3682991

Agreed, but it's generally a bad idea to blow up Hamid Karzai while he's right next to you (which is exactly what happened).
>>
>>3683013
they could have used literally any other symbols except the meme runes.
Must have been awkward working with germans or poles or the french or the bongs deployed in afghanistan.
>>
>>3682813
Name one historian with such an opinion.
>>
>>3682866
>>Navy SEALs murder a Green Beret after he figures out they're planning on misappropriating Army funds even though their whole existence is a waste of taxpayer dollars
What in the actual fuck.
>>
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>>3683031

Even more awkward when the Jewish Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps shows up for an inspection and he sees all your SS flags in the barracks.

>>3683041

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/us/politics/navy-seals-green-beret-death-mali.html
>>
>Amerimutts larping as German SS
Imagine my shock
>>
>>3682782
There’s a reason why the Wehrmacht has a severe mistrust of SS >>3682782
>>
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>>3682933
>>3683013
>>
>>3683124
How do they get away with this?
>>
>>3683129
they got kicked out of the army
>>
>>3683056
>the SS stands for scout sniper boss
>but its literally the same sign as the schutzstaffel
>awkward silence.
>>
>>3682782
Spartans and the USMC.
>>
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>>3682782
Only a few SS divisions could actually be considered "elite". The rest were largely made up of conscripts and foreigners. The 36th Waffen division was made up of literal criminals.
>>
>>3682875
>/b/ : the division
vs
>Average chav brawler/hooligan, the division

Gee, I wonder.
>>
>>3683129
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8351996.stm

They didn't.
>>
>>3682933
>mass murderers who thought killing kids at point blank range made them badasses
I would say that's only really true for the Dirlewanger brigade.
>>
>>3683212
Das Reich was quite fond of it as well,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

Alongside the 16th Reichsfurher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant%27Anna_di_Stazzema_massacre
>>
>>3683212
It's true for most of the "Germanic" divisions really, Dirlewanger was just the champion
>>
>>3682836
Sorry, I don't speak loser.
>>
>>3682782
except weren't non-nazi generals impressed by the SS?

which is why they didn't try and cap hitler sooner ?
>>
>kill "civilians" (partisans)
>you monster, how could anyone do something like this

>hide among civilians and shoot people in the back
>glorious heroes, brave freedom fighters, the good guys

How are you supposed to fight partisans?
An honorable country would have an army, if the army loses in battle you give up and you lost the war. That is what France did and they didn't get genocided.
>>
>>3683124
>Czechs are best slavs
What a surprise!
>>
>>3682811
Poles weren't fond of Germans very much.

>ragtag Polish partisans went toe to toe with an "elite" SS division + reinforcements for 2 months, armed with pistols and homemade submachine guns
>they managed to capture 3 tanks and shoot down a Stuka
>>
>>3683982
based polacks
>>
>>3683887
>how are you supposed to fight partisans??
by not genociding their people from Day 1, you brainlet wehraboo
>>
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>>3683887
>An honorable country would have an army, if the army loses in battle you give up and you lost the war. That is what France did and they didn't get genocided.
There is no honour in surrender.
>>
>>3683887
>you give up and you lost the war. That is what France did and they didn't get genocided.
The French literally set up a government in exile that directly ordered partisan activity dude. They weren't as effective as the Eastern partisans and are much more heavily romanticized but they were still there.
>>
>>3683124

At least the Czechs tried to be subtle about it by going with SS division collars rather the fucking SS logo.
>>
>>3683887

Partisans didn't live among civilians for the most part, they hid in the forests and lived in camps. Civilians were killed in retaliation, not to wipe out the partisans. Do you actually think random 22 year old slav housewives with 6 kids hanging off their teets or 72 year old white haired blind boris are going out at night attacking Nazis? Nigga are you retarded?
>>
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>>3684815
>Do you actually think random 22 year old slav housewives with 6 kids hanging off their teets or 72 year old white haired blind boris are going out at night attacking Nazis?

If a 15 year old Dutch-Jewish girl who's nine months pregnant with twins could do it, so can they.
>>
>>3683887
Are you trying to argue that Poland deserved what they got?
>>
I think a distinction is needed here.

Id argue the SS Panzer divisions were no meme, but the SS Infantry Divisions certainly were.
>>
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>>3685225
It's not like Hitler wasn't open about wanting to turn Poland into lebensraum for the Germans, most Nazis hate Poles for whatever reason.
>>
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>>3682782
Can someone help me understand why Hitler needed the SS? I get that they were loyal to the Nazi Party rather than Germany, but wasn't the German military also loyal to the Nazi party by dint of the Nazis being in charge of the government?
>>
>>3685300
Not really the whermacht operated more independantly than what people think, despite all the party pressure. They kept trying to win a war while the nazi party wanted something more propaganda worthy.
>We need to look into some innovation for our men on the ground.
>BOLT ACTON ONLY LOL
>Mein Führer the army is about to be encircled, without new weapons or a steady supply line, i am afraid our only option will be retreat!
>LOL ATTACK ANYWAY
>Mein Führer, I regret to inform you that the city has been encircled and our men are under seige by the enemy, without a relief effort, we may never recover...
>FIGHT TO THE DEATH LMAO
>But mein Führer, think of the families of all the...
>YOUR WIKI PAGE WILL BE RAD LOL
>>
>>3682782
The SS were mainly good for two things, killing civilians and staging false flag attacks.
>>3685362
>>
Like others have said, talking about the Waffen SS as a whole when discussing quality is stupid. The core divisions were very good, the later ones utter garbage.

The 12th SS was made up of mostly teenage boys from the Hitler Youth and held off three British armored divisions (with some help from Lehr and the 2nd SS) for months around Caen, despite overwhelming artillery and air support.
>>
>>3685300
Hitler distrusted the Wehrmacht because of its traditionalism, even forcing the recruits to swear allegiance to him personally wasn't enough
>>
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>>3685390
>BOLT ACTON ONLY LOL
I assume you're talking about the StG44, the fact is it's unrealistic to equip every German soldier with one, it requires an entirely new cartridge to be produced, and it's a bit of an overrated piece of shit with a fragile receiver and jams when used at full-auto
>>
>>3682892
>Everyone fears the Southern Warrior
I'm not sure if you're aware, but they lost the only war they ever fought in.
>>
>>3685721

>implying their fighting spirit doesn't live on in the hearts of their descendants
>>
>>3683982
>>3682811
>>3682782
To be fair the Dirlewanger brigade was a bunch of criminals/lunatics uses as canon fodder
>>
>>3685739
So what you're saying is, a Confederate could've impregnated Anne Frank during WWII
>>
>>3685797
That wasn't the original intent, it was supposed to be comprised of poachers using their marksmanship in a light infantry role, the criminality of it just kept getting worse and worse
>>
>>3683887
They could take males and kill them.
Not all with women and children.
>>
Of course the SS were terrible. Hitler planned them to replace the wehrmacht, which was still the best land army in the continent, despite losing the great war.

He allowed the SS to parasitically divert funds and supplies from the real military, while they larped around in their hugo boss uniforms, giving each other nazi salutes (which the real wehrmacht had refused to do). The only salient point is the SS intelligence services, which outperformed its national counterpart only by virtue of not being in active conspiracy against the fuhrer.
>>
>>3685811

Uhh... The descendant of one? Sure, why not. Let's say Nathan Bedford Forrest III managed to jump from that plane instead being incinerated, landed right on top of the Annex for no apparent reason, had to stay with the Frank family, and got real cozy with Anne...
>>
They were fanatical and fought fiercely.

But this isn't always good in warfare.

The Japanese were the same and that didn't work for them either.
>>
>>3682782
yes they were stupid and incompetent also we should fear them because they were the ultimate evil

which is it?
>>
>>3685861
You should fear them if you don't have a gun is the lesson to be learned
>>
>>3685861
that's like saying you shouldn't fear a pack of nigs just because they are stupid
they are stupid AND violence
>>
>>3682782
>/pol/tards say that the SS was an elite fighting force based on a few divisions that did well
>go the complete opposite direction by saying that the SS was a shit-tier force based on a few divisions that did poorly
unironically kill yourself you generalizing fuckwad. Yeah, there were good SS divisions and there were bad SS divisions, that doesn't mean you can generalize the entire force. Or can I start basing my analysis of the Red Army on a few underequipped starving peseants?
>>
>>3685694
No, talking anout Hitlers insistance that nothing needed to be changed about the main infantry weapon, the mauser 98k
While from the kasserine pass to Normandy, the regular infantry were out classed by lee's and garands.
>>
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>>3682805
>Also what those slavic axis soldiers did pales in comparison to any of the atrocities perpetrated by soviets or polacks against german citizens by far throughout the war
>>
>>3685849
Nathan Bedford Forrest the III is the most Anglo looking person I have ever seen.
>>
>>3682813
>sucking the dick of a faggot manlet with syphilis
>being this undesirable to women and this much of a virgin
Lmaoing at ur life faggot
>>
>>3687649

Forrest himself was mostly Scots-Irish (and according to some very poorly sourced conspiracy websites, part-Jewish).
>>
>>3685849

Holy shit he literally likes his great-grandfather but with a mustache and a haircut
>>
>>3682875

I love this copypasta
>>
>>3682805
*tips stahlhelm*
>>
Early SS was shit because they got 2nd rate equipment.
Dirlewanger was a special case composed of nutcases and rapers used in Anti Partisan operations - basically the lowest of the low, doing tasks that even regular SS troops wouldn't have the stomach for.
Elite divisions like Liebstandarte, Das Reich, Wiking, performed exceptionally well
>>
>>3683198

They are "Elite" when compared to the rest of the SS, which means about equal to your average Heer Panzergrenadiers division.

The actual elite unit in the Heer was Panzer Lehr, well, at least before it lost all it's experienced NCOs and Officers in the Falaise pocket.
>>
>>3690535

> Liebstandarte

Stopped by a single infantry regiment from 1st Infantry division and a battalion of M10's.

> Das Reich
Encircled by 2nd Armored Division, escaped with a grand total of 1 Panther and a Stug.

> "Exceptionally well"
>>
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>>3682875
>Also bonus question: What would happen if a nine month pregnant Anne Frank mysteriously teleported into the middle of a Confederate Army camp of Louisiana Tigers?

We'd be fist-fighting each other over who gets to fuck her first.

t. Louisianan
>>
>>3692794
Huheuhheuh
>fisting
>>
>>3682866
Given the amount not mission they undertake you would expect a lot of fuck ups. That being said Navy SEALs have become huge Prima Donna's post 9/11 and especially post Iraq war. This can be blamed the shear amount of books released by former SEALs who want to be the next Richard Marcinko and the media who love a good propaganda piece and SEALs sound the sexiest to portray. The idea of the quiet professional who speaks softly and carries a big stick seems to have been lost to the past.
>>
>>3682875
>Bunch of edgy mcEdigintons lead by edge master Supreme vs a bunch of red necks that like to fight
>>
>>3682805
>Dirlewanger was never part of the SS
>>
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>>3683124
>Dirlewanger insignia
>>
>>3692980

At least they tried making it somewhat innocuous
>>
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>>3682923
>success of the l'armée française
You jest !!
>>
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>>3682782

Anyone else kinda wish the Nazis had been around during the Age of Piracy?

A pirate ship using a Totenkopf flag captained by Arrghdolf Hitler and the crew jauntily sing Erika would be pretty cool.
>>
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>>3682782
The Waffen-SS had some fairly competent men among them. Also, they were never meant to be the "elite".
>>
>>3685821
>it was supposed to be comprised of poachers using their marksmanship in a light infantry role
They were meant to use their poacher skills to track Partisans, which inevitably led to killing non-partisan civilians.
>>
I'm always surprised how much Westerners know, but probably cuz this board is gigantic and many of you studied it.

Maybe communism kept everyone retarded, but even older Slavs (obviously not who was there) barely know anything about WW2 and don't give a shit.

Hell my grandparents lived in Russia and barely knew that a cold war was going on, or any other politician except the general secretary.

But again I guess it is due to communism keeping everyone retarded. You would be surprised how dumb the average Soviet citizen was regarding history and politics. STEM? Sure. Everything else was probably considered faggy.
>>
>>3682866
Pretty spot on except wasn't benghazi mostly contractors and not actual SOF? Ex-SOF contractors but still.
>>
>>3697294
not to mention it was a direct result of budgets being cut.
>>
>>3697298
Don't forget killary
>>
>>3697276
It is faggy desu
>>
>>3683013
>Tripfag
>Dumb ANTIFA soyboy
Checks out
>>
The Waffen SS was an evolving organization, so its reliability and competence varied during the war.

Until 1942 the Waffen SS could not be seriously considered elite or even serious independent military units; as they were still primarily regiment-sized formations. 1st SS Division for instance was merely an attachment to the Heer's 17th Infantry Division in Poland. This was because the SS limited itself primarily to volunteers and those who fit Himmler's vision for the future Reich.

Serious expansion only began in 1942 with the SS beginning to import experienced Heer officers instead of simply picking people for ideological purity. This expansion eventually resulted in the creation of the SS Panzer Corp consisting of the three most famous SS Panzer Divisions - Life Guard Adolf Hitler, Das Reich, and Totenkopf.

The SS Panzer Corp first saw serious action in early 1943, as part of Third Kharkov and Kursk, and in many ways their reputation was created as a result of these two battles. The SS Panzer Corps was rather instrumental at securing Manstein's victory at Third Kharkov - although it bears remembering they suffered very heavy losses that other Panzer Divisions would have found rather unnecessary. They also performed well at Kursk; arguably out-performing the Heer's Panzer Divisions for the first (and only) time.

After that however the SS degenerated into the Wermacht's shadow army. Himmler, seeking to secure more personal power, further expanded the SS until it eventually reached a staggering count of 30+ Divisions, the majority of which were Volkstrum (militia composed of old men and boys) or worse Ost battalion (Russian prisoners coerced to fight for the Germans) quality. The latter were particularly useless, as the soldiers were all liable to mutiny and shoot their own officers. Indeed Dennis Showalter, one of the leading experts on the German Army, once acidly noted that the only "German" component of some of these Divisions were the German shepard dogs.
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>>3698109
Hence by 1944 it is difficult to consider the SS as being "elite" in any serious way. The SS Panzer Divisions sometimes performed well, but were also utterly crushed in other situations - just like all the other Panzer Divisions. From a strictly military perspective however they were just a needless duplication of resources - they could have been just regular Heer Panzer/Infantry Divisions and the German Armed forces as a whole would have worked better.

In summary, the SS could not be considered to be "elite" militarily except for a small period in 1943 when they did very well and imported some very good Heer officers; and much of their supposed prowess was a result of their key role at Third Kharkov + Kursk. However, after that they were expanded into an inconsistent shadow army that was raised primarily for Himmler's benefit; and their performance was rarely better than their Heer counterparts. The SS's insistence that they were still "Elite" in 1944 was mostly propaganda to justify the fact that their entire existence was more of a hindrance to the effective defense of Germany because of the duplication of the Heer command structure just to satisfy Himmler's ego and mistrust of the Heer.

On a side note, the "best" and most elite German units often had very uninspiring names and hence are almost forgotten. The best single Panzer Division performance for instance was turned in by 11th Panzer Division at the Chir in 1943, where it basically fought an entire Soviet Tank Army on its own. Without 11th Panzer's actions there would not have been a Third Kharkov for the SS to even win. The highest-scoring armored battalions meanwhile were in fact several Sturmgetchutze Abteilung - "Assault Gun Battlions" - whose modest complement of Stugs killed more than any "Big Cat" Tiger or Panther battalion ever dreamed of approaching. The Second World War was not a war where the most glamorous units did most of the work.
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>>3682805
>Dirlewanger was never part of the SS

Is the true horror of your brain on storm faggotry?
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>>3698109
>>3698111
This is unironically the best post I have seen on /his/ Thank you. Can you recommend any good books about the history of the SS starting from it's bodyguard status and it's evolution up to 1945? Or perhaps about how Wehrmacht tactics, particularly tank tactics evolved to deal with being on the back foot and continually having to attempt breakouts and breakthroughs later in the war?
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>>3698140
For the SS, SS: A New History by Adrian Weale is a good starting point as an overall primer.
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>>3698111
>>3698109
this
artillery killed the most people in war not uber elite units
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>>3698111
I believe the top ten tank aces were all from ss divisions
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>>3698111
... I just have to add that the SS had a very good music corp, that was far superior to the one of the Wehrmacht - very good musicians.
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>>3682782
>Is there any more overrated military unit in history than the Waffen SS

Unironically the Spartans
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>>3682805
>>3682813
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>>3683887
>An honorable country would have an army, if the army loses in battle you give up and you lost the war. That is what France did and they didn't get genocided.
so what you're saying is that the "Danzig Massacre" was justified and Poland did nothing wrong?
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>>3699303
Danzig massacre doesn't need to be justified because it never fucking happened you dumb cunt
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>>3699312
that guy is obviously a stormfag, so either he admits they didn't happen or he admits that the Poles were in the right. I don't care either way
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>>3699321
Even if Danzig massacre did happen, it should have happened in the 1920's when Danigger German retards decided communism was a better alternative to a LoN admin by not unloading freighters carrying arms to literally fight gommunism
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>>3692794

NOLA here, I can verify this is 100% accurate
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>>3698109
>>3698111
I would just want to add in that at least in my very limited study mostly on the western front, as the war came to a close (February '45 and afterwards or so), the Heer tended to either surrender after short amounts of contact or simply lay down their arms and not fight altogether. The SS units on the western front reliably fought. Usually not particularly well, but they at least would fight, far more often than the Heer would.

Given how much of WW2 historigraphy in the west is dominated by western experiences, I can't help but feel that's some of the reason they have their reputation as elite.
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>>3682805
>>3682813
these pics are really ugly
congrats
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>>3683887
>How are you supposed to fight partisans?
By being nice to the local population aka doing your best to retain your humanity even in times of war.
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>>3684008
there is honour in killing yourself
you should try that
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>>3685405
>The SS were mainly good for two things, killing civilians and staging false flag attacks.
i get why /pol/ like them so much
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>>3685856
better to stand back for a while
smoking cigarettes and sipping red wine
works great for the french desu
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>>3698109
>>3698111
Ehh, Ostdivisions did also make up large parts of the prestigious SS Panzer Divisions- for example the 5.-SS Pz div Wiking, probably one of the best and most successful divisions in the entire war, was composed of multiple Regiments of Estonians and several Nordic Battalions.

While the 1.-SS, 2.-SS, 3.-SS, and 12.-SS were famous for being purely German (well iirc the 12.-SS had a lot of Italians), pretty much the rest of them had large groups of foreigners, including the 9.-SS Pz (which was very successful) and 10.-SS Pz (which was horrible), and the SS-Pz Gr. divisions.
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>>3685405
>The SS were mainly good for two things, killing civilians and staging false flag attacks.

They aren't even that good at false flag attacks, no one fucking believed Gleiwitz was even remotely legitimate
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>>3697294

The CIA was running some sort of torture camp in Benghazi IIRC
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>>3682866
>Navy SEALs spilling state secrets to a major video game developer and the game is still a piece of shit

Medal of Honor Warfighter?
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>>3682875
that movie was such bullshit because they literally gassed all the kids on arrival
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>>3705287
>that movie was such bullshit because they literally gassed all the kids on arrival

They kept a family camp of Gypsies around for the Red Cross inspectors until August, 1944 and then promptly killed them as soon as the inspectors had left. Settela Steinbach, the Gypsy girl who was filmed sticking her head out of a cattle car on the train to Auschwitz was part of that group if I recall.
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>>3682908

kek
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>>3682866
>ODA 525 on a SCUD hunt gets busted by a bunch of 12 year old Iraqi school girls
>ywn be a green beret
>ywn rape sweet preteen Iraqi cunny and then obliterate evidence by calling in an airstrike on the girls

feelsbadman
>>
Who /Fightin' 36th/ here?
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>>3682805
>lso what those slavic axis soldiers did pales in comparison to any of the atrocities perpetrated by soviets or polacks against german citizens by far throughout the war
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>>3682813
Hahah can't wait for you to suicide.
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>>3682782
IIRC the electricians mainly recruited from rural stock, thus they were better at fieldcraft and generally more used to living in the field.
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It's funny to see alliedboos trying to make a big deal out of Dirlewanger and give him shit for commanding ex-convicts when literally 90% of soviet front line troops were criminal felons drafted straight out of prison themselves (hence also the massacres and mass rapes they comitted during their advance into Germany, which stand in no relation to what Kaminski's slavic soldiers did btw - But a bolsheboo wouldn't mention that of course). Contrast this with a SINGLE fucking division most of whose soldiers were foreign slavic volunteers anyway and who didn't even speak german properly and you start to see how disproportionate the picture they're painting actually is
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>>3708745
Ye but we aren't discussing the units of the red army, but the SS, if you want to talk about Soviet war crimes then make your own thread
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>>3708786
If he made his own thread it would be harder to deflect blame from the Reich.
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>>3683887
Maybe there wouldn't be so many partisans if you didn't have such a blatant disregard for treatment of civilians and openly plan to exterminate them?
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>>3682875

>ywn watch a platoon of Dirlewanger Brigade soldiers start harassing a pregnant Anne Frank (walking home so she can kiss her three older children goodnight, have passionate marital sex with Peter, and get some sleep like normal people do) after being booted out of a bar at last call and getting into a violent brawl with an equally drunk platoon of Louisiana Tigers, who take offense to their bothering a lady and were looking for an excuse to beat the shit out of someone anyway.

feelsbadman
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>>3708745

as a bolsheboo I brag about how many kraut sluts we gangraped on the way in to destroy your aryan paradise all the time. Its fine to brag about atrocities when you won hahahahahahahaha
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>>3682805
>Dirlewanger was never part of the SS you fucking idiot btw

The absolute state of Stormniggers, anyways the SS really are overrated, they had like 3 or 4 divisions that were actually elite but they got wasted fighting the Russians IIRC. Besides that they were pretty much turboPOG, Nazi Party brown-nosers or foreigners who got BTFO anytime they fought an enemy with half a brain or that wasn't tied up.

Now the Wehrmacht had some units that could definitely hold their own
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>>3682866
Yep, you'd figure it'd be the Marine or Army infantry but these SOCOM fags really do drop the ball on a regular basis
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>>3687513
desu, small arms matter fuck all in large conflicts.
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>>3710965
>t. Heinz Guderian
>>
The problem with judging how good the SS were is the fact that their divisions were comprised and equipped very differently one from another. On one hand we can have elite units equipped with the best gear available, on another hand we can have a mob of rapists with shit guns.
I'm not even starting on the foreign legions.
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>>3682892
>>3682875
>southern warrior
>loses war
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>>3710965
A higher volume of fire is always better
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>>3712053
Sure, but their marginal impact wouldve been insignificant. On a tactical scale its mostly arty, armor and air support which are the real decisive elements. But we all know strategic mobility and logistics are what wins wars.
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>>3682866
>Unironically USSOCOM given how routinely they fuck up
>crash helicopters into each other in Iran
ussocom didn't even exist during operation eagle claw
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>>3713422

Three of the units that later formed the nucleus of SOCOM (US Army Rangers, Delta Force, USAF Special Operations Squadron) took part in Eagle Claw though.
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>>3697331
That's politizied bull though.
>>
I've been looking for a good book on the Waffen SS and my father gave me a book on them by Guido Knopp. The SS: A historical warning.
Is it any good?
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>>3710861
Peter?
You mean Charles II of spain?
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>>3713785
Yeah and socom was created BECAUSE of the lack of an integrated command.
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>>3713407
>On a tactical scale its mostly arty, armor and air support which are the real decisive elements.
On a tactical scale those are all force multipliers for infantry. You can't take and hold territory without boots on the ground and you can't expect them to stay there without proper kit.
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>>3682813
Fuck it, in going to take this bait
I think something virtually every real historian would ACTUALLY agree on is that if you took every SS soldier out of the German army, they would instantly have become significantly more competent
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>>3714854
And proper kit in wwII was a bolt action rifle. Stg 44s were just another burden on the logistics system. Absolutely no need.
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>>3714935
In 1939 bolt-actions were still very much the norm, sure. That doesn't mean that a semi-automatic rifle wouldn't help immensely and it's not like other countries weren't beginning to replace their bolt-actions with semi-autos and SMGs.
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>>3715103
And like that anon said, it wouldnt matter much in the grand scheme of things. Small arms are nice, but all that really matters is that you have them. Doesnt need to be fancy.
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>>3682875

Fact: Louisianians are the most powerful race in the world
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>>3682993

they literally do this to trigger normies (civlians)
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>>3715235
>Semi-autos require resighting after reloading
>Bolt-actions require resighting after each shot
Yeah, you're right, absolutely insignificant in the grand scheme. Especially when your military force consists mostly of conscripts with and ever-decreasing quality of training.
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>>3683887
>How are you supposed to fight partisans?
Don't start wars and you won't have to answer this question
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>>3715301

/thread
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>>3683887
I bet you like to hide in closet and watch bull fucking your wife
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>>3682866
I’m fairly conservative but I’m convinced that most SEALs and other elite troops are human pieces of shit who only managed to pass psych tests to get in because they’re borderline sadists with massive egos.
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>>3715642
above all, liberate them. Don't genocide them.
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>>3717057
>they’re borderline sadists with massive egos

Who else do you think volunteers to learn 20 ways to kill someone with their bare hands?

>Some of those photographs, especially those taken of casualties from 2005 through 2008, show deceased enemy combatants with their skulls split open by a rifle or pistol round at the upper forehead, exposing their brain matter. The foreign fighters who suffered these V-shaped wounds were either killed in battle and later shot at close range or finished off with a security round while dying. Among members of SEAL Team 6, this practice of desecrating enemy casualties was called “canoeing.”
>The canoeing photos are dramatic documentary evidence of the extreme and unnecessary violence that began to occur during multiple high-risk, exhausting, and traumatizing tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. “There is and was no military reason whatsoever to split someone’s skull open with a single round,” said a former SEAL Team 6 leader. “It’s sport.”
>Late that year, the CIA joined operators from Gold Squadron for an operation near Jalalabad. According to a CIA officer with direct knowledge of the incident, the CIA requested that the SEALs capture, rather than kill, their militant targets. During the pre-dawn raid, a small team from Gold Squadron breached a compound that was home to an insurgent cell that had targeted a U.S. base. Inside, they found six militants, four in one room, all sleeping with weapons near their beds. Despite orders to detain the men, the SEALs killed all six. In the room with four of the suspected insurgents, four SEALs counted down and canoed each sleeping man with a shot to the forehead. One of their teammates killed the other two targets in another room. All six were photographed.

These guys are such fucking nutcases even CIA Niggers can't handle it.
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>>3717412

Forgot the link

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/
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>>3696179

Can we have pregnant Anne Frank as a pirate queen who pledges fealty to the Spanish Empire, but also demands that in return, Charles II must give her a child?
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>>3711003
Heinz was right
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>>3719330
Heinz was a revolutionary military thinker, but he wasn't right about armor being the end-all of warfare.
>>
1st, 2nd, 5th and 12th are what you could consider '''elite''' and even then it was only towards the later stages 43-45
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>>3683056

The USMC has a Jewish commandant?
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The most elite SS formation was probably Sonderlehrgang z. b. V "Oranienburg", which consisted of 100 men handpicked by Col. Otto Skozeny, the rest wildly varied in quality.
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>>3723157
That man is the definition of a rogue. Will work for anyone provided the price is right.
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>>3682805
The right can't meme
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>>3723157
i love the 33rd ss waffen grenadier the most
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>>3703377
links to any info on this?
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>>3724413

The CIA were supposedly there to "recover" SA-7 MANPADS that had fallen into the hands of Libyan rebels (more likely it was the opposite).

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-secret-cia-mission-in-benghazi-2013-8
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>>3725901

Do they glow in the dark?
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>>3727278

Yes
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>>3724139
Yep. Would have been an excellent NKVD or Ungentlemanly Warfare or Partisan officer, no doubt. A warrior through and through.
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>>3724139

Literally true
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>>3682866
Majority of these involve the Navy Seals.
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>>3717412
>Be ordered to detain them.
>Kills them all
>Didn't even try to leave one alive.
I would've court martial'd them for insubordination.
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>>3683037
David Irving
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>>3682933
If they were "literally larping as SS" they would be wearing SS uniforms. Which of course would be unthinkable. Some of these men are gransons of men who fought the SS.

It's obvious to anyone not trying to create an artificial scandal that the SS refers to "Scout Sniper".
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>>3682866
What the fuck is the Navy Seals problem? Everyone else seems chill.
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>>3697945
>tripfag
Hello newfriend
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>>3731532

I've read they have a culture that is far more tolerant of bragging and mouthing off classified information compared to other units of similar status such as Delta Force
>>
jesus christ I thought I was a huge wehraboo

>best in the war
shit yeah maybe, definitely up there

>best in human history
jesus goddamn christ get a fucking grip
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>>3682866
>SEALs literally racing each other to kill bin Laden first so they can get the better book deal (I'm not fucking kidding)
>spilling state secrets to a major video game developer
>the the phrase "bury the hatchet" literally

Can you elaborate on these three?
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>>3683887
>How are you supposed to fight partisans?

By not genociding the shit out of the population, not killing civvies as retaliation while autistically screeching and, most importantly, not invading their fucking country, you mongoloid.

>An honorable country would have an army, if the army loses in battle you give up and you lost the war.

Like Germany lost to the "refugees"?

>That is what France did and they didn't get genocided.

Oh boy, surely.
>>
>>3697276
>Hell my grandparents lived in Russia and barely knew that a cold war was going on, or any other politician except the general secretary.
>While Americans being bombarded by the "duck and cover" drills pamphlets about ruskies coming any moment to rape all women and sterilize all men and living in total fear of ruskie nuking the US.
>But it's the communism that kept everyone retarded.

You've made a scarecrow, fucked up the half of the world to fight it, and now that half of the world will fuck over the rest.
All because your top 5% of country was too scared that people might see through their jewish tricks and start nanging them before they outsource the shit out of country, while screwing up the US and selling it to globalism.
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>>3733491

>Once inside, the SEALs proceeded slowly and methodically. O’Neill’s teammates shot and killed Kuwaiti’s brother and his wife on the first floor. After blowing open the iron gate blocking the main stairway, the lead assaulters, among them Bissonnette and O’Neill, followed the operator known as Red up the stairs. Red encountered and shot bin Laden’s son just before the second floor landing, and the SEALs following behind him fanned out into the hallways and rooms on the second floor to search and secure the area. It was then that both Bissonnette and O’Neill hung back on the stairway. Both should have remained on the second floor. Instead, as Red began his ascent to the third floor, they followed him up, hoping to get in on the kill. O’Neill was closer to Red, one of the first five assaulters. Bissonnette was much farther back down the stairwell.
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>>3733553

>Seven members of Naval Special Warfare Development Group (DEVGRU) who worked as consultants for the game were disciplined for releasing classified information to the game's creators. They received a punitive letter of reprimand and a partial forfeiture of pay for two months.[11] The two main complaints against the SEALs were that they did not seek the permission of their commanding officer to take part in the project and that they showed the game designers some of their specially designed combat equipment unique to their unit.[12] The military official briefed about the case was not authorized to speak publicly about it.
>During the first deployments in both Iraq and Afghanistan, it was common practice to take fingers, scalp, or skin from slain enemy combatants for identification purposes. One former SEAL Team 6 leader told me that he feared the practice would lead to members of the unit using the DNA samples as an excuse to mutilate and desecrate the dead. By 2007, when Howard and Red Squadron showed up with their hatchets in Iraq, internal reports of operators using the weapons to hack dead and dying militants were provided to both the commanding officer of SEAL Team 6 at that time, Capt. Scott Moore, and his deputy, Capt. Tim Szymanski.
>Howard, who declined to answer questions from The Intercept, rallied his SEALs and others before missions and deployments by telling them to “bloody the hatchet.” One SEAL I spoke with said that Howard’s words were meant to be inspirational, like those of a coach, and were not an order to use the hatchets to commit war crimes. Others were much more critical. Howard was often heard asking his operators whether they’d gotten “blood on your hatchet” when they returned from a deployment. Howard’s distribution of the hatchets worried several senior SEAL Team 6 members and some CIA paramilitary officers who worked with his squadron.
>>
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>>3733491
>>3733564

Sources

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57547417/7-navy-seals-disciplined-for-role-with-video-game/
>>
>>3733566
And these people won the Cold War.
Soviet Union was too fucking humane.
>>
>>3725901
>>3727278

Underrated
>>
>>3687650
This is such a woman comment.
>>
>>3683887
You are going up against argument ethic, they are being dishonest. The standards are swapped to demonize you. The people who want to kill are not above lying
>>
>>3733572
Actually America was. We should've nuked you commies off the face of the earth when we had the chance.
>>
>>3733553
>>3733564

Damn




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