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>"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles"

But thats wrong you old fat bearded idiot, history is the story of a humankind and its completely irrelevant what classes do what.

Marx was terrible at applying logic. Agree guys?
>>
Both of you are not wrong. Rich and poor resented each other
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>>4492774
>Agree guys?
Yes, he had none.
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>>4492774
He was just a old school version of ironic shitposter
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>>4493200
He was edgy rich kid who never struggled a day in his life.
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>>4493200
The entire Left Hengellians were shitposting that got out of hand
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>>4492774
>history is the story of humankind
>what these groups of humans do is irrelevant
Even by your own standards this is a fucking retarded post.
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>>4492774
When Marx says "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles", I don't think he's saying that class struggles are the only relevant lens through which to look at history, he's probably saying that it's the most important lens. Which you can agree or disagree with, but it's less absolutist.
I could be wrong, though.
The German seems to be: 'Die Geschichte aller bisherigen Gesellschaft ist die Geschichte von Klassenkämpfen." Perhaps a German speaker can clarify.
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>>4493226
He's saying it's a stuggle of individuals, not of groups. What don't you understand?
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>>4492774
Obviously you are a butthurt shitposter. This outlook is now universally applied to the world. We see the history of each individual society and humanity as a whole as transition between formation, whose prime feature and core is economic mode of production.

Just like he proposed.
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>>4492774
>its completely irrelevant what classes do what.
Are you literally retarded?

>>4493242
>groups don't matter, only individuals do
kill yourself retard
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>>4492774
Yeah he just wanted to shove some more of his tainted philosophical nonsense that pointlessly butchered anything he learned from Hegel into his ideas about how reality worked in some simplistic and extremely watered down way and ignore almost everything outside of what might fit into his narrative.
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>>4493331
>groups don't matter, only individuals do
this wasn't implied.
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>>4493174
>Implying "the poor" always have this ignorant discontentment for people considered rich no matter how they got there.
>Implying there have never been people with large amounts of wealth who have carried for those living in less quality conditions.

>Implying any foreign war, external trade deals, building of new settlements, civilizations or spreading of religion has anything to do with what the poor and rich are doing to each other.

If this was true most of history would be about farmers burning villas and the rich ordering beggars to be thrown over walls, that doesn't sound very important to the whole of human history at all.
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>>4493204
>>>4493200
>He was edgy rich kid who never struggled a day in his life.
bait.
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>>4492774
>It's another retard reads Marx for the first time then immediately posts on /his episode

Don't you understand the dialect, bruv?
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History is a series of deeds, not a series of discourses.
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>>4493506
Do you?

Why do brainlets seem to pull out this word and never actually go into anything.

>Uh uh ..yy.yeah I'm smart I've read Das Kapital, uhh MUH DIALECTS!

>Yeah what about them...

>muh dialects..
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>>4493537
>Yeah well you know history as in uh you know the last 30 years before Marx began his writings and up until the 1940s were all about class conflicts and thats the most important part of history.
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>>4493545
Here's the thing with the dialectic, you have to not be an idiot, and historians are the biggest fools
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>>4493568
Then what are you doing here?
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>>4493572
Protecting people like Marx from idiots who've never read him
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>3 gigantic books which are the epitome his work, full of details about his ideas.
>Lololol just disproved him with a phrase xDxdxddd
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>>4493584
Yes, its what happens when autistic brainlets go into a rage and try to write paragraphs, every bit of it turns out wrong.
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>>4493591
>autistic brainlets go into a rage and try to write paragraphs, every bit of it turns out wrong.

You don't even realize how pathetic you look. A flea demeaning a galaxy.
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>>4493608
Oof I'm sorry, you are correct, I am but a pathetic flea demeaning a galaxy of knowledge at which you hold, you all mighty genius, you hold the highest wealth of PDF files from /leftypol/ that of which the world has never seen. I bet you must be rolling in reddit gold from every post of vast intellectual radiance you impose upon us lower level beings.

Explain to me how labor theory of value again please... I want to hear a good joke today before I go.
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>>4493629
>"Muh evul rich boogie man" caring about some basement dwelling antisemite
Yes the collective rich love supporting the daily stormer and such am i right fellow communists?
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>>4493582
Only things that are weak, frail and untrue needs protection
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>>4492774
Oswald Spengler argued that Marxism came to be because the Hegelian historian that was Marx looked at British society. It was a unique response to what Spengler called "English Liberalism", but it failed to realise that the Anarchic French society and the Socialist German (Prussian) society were differently structured.
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>>4493550
>marx writing a book based on false beliefs is more important than the agricultural revolution or the written word
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>>4493655
That is my point, its sarcasm.
Thats why its in greentext/quoation marker
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>>4493647
>haha i bet i will come off as a though guy with such a reply
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>>4493629
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>>4492774

If you weaken it, you can say that class is ONE of the major themes of history. Then it's true. It's overly simplistic to say that class is the only theme.
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>>4493654
But Marx flat out said his model of communism was based entirely on and for Western European (specifically British) capitalism. It was never intended for anywhere else.
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>>4493668
>haha I bet I can get away with attacking his character instead of his argument
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>>4493668
Yeah, but where is the lie?
Gravity and the earth not being flat doesn't need protection, only idiots who simply ignore proven work and easily replicated experiments believe otherwise.

It literally just takes some math and two sticks to use like sun dials to prove the earth's shape.
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>>4493685
It was less a criticism of Marx than it was an argument against applying Marxism in non-liberal societies.
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>>4493700
Fair enough.
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>>4493704
Also I might add that I didn't say Spengler was right.
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>>4493689
"Only things that are weak, frail and untrue needs protection" That's not even a real argument, that's a subjective point of view.
>>4493690
>explaining your views on an idea with a unrelated metaphor
I hope this is just some kind of ironic shitposting or else I feel sorry for you
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>>4493685
>But Marx flat out said his model of communism was based entirely on and for Western European (specifically British) capitalism. It was never intended for anywhere else.
In ch2 of the ComMan he says that it caters to western Europe in mind, but is flexible enough to broadly be applied anywhere.
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>>4493240
Marx's thought is inherently teleological, so his focus on class really is an absolute.
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>>4493748
What does 2channel have to do with this?

Are non-jap posters still banned btw?
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>>4493765
We should ban Marxists desu
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>>4493737
I'm waiting for you to prove how socialism would work
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>>4493787
>I'm not a yootopian XXXXXDDDDD Marxisms are syentific LMAO Read buk :>
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>>4493787
First you kill all uppity people asking stupid questions.
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>>4493781
Well I mean I've never heard of a modern japanese marxist so yeah.
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>>4493787
I'm not a socialist so I'm not going to do that, I just wanted to point out your retarded way of thinking. Imo you should just shut the fuck up because you're a drag to whatever kind of cause you're fighting for.
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>>4493802
>Heheh kid, I but yu thiught I was Marxist becaus I liek dialexes, butt Im acualy RITE HUHGAYLiEN haha read Evola
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>>4493628
Cringe.
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>>4493829
>proving my point by continuing to act like a retard
I don't care anyway since you're a marxist larping as an anti-commie to be willingly giving such a bad image of your ennemies
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>>4493781
This
>>4493765
Chapter 2 of the communist manifesto says that communism can be flexibly applied anywhere,but Marx wanted it to happen in western Europe
>>4493628
lmao no kidding
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Don't fall for it lads. Commies are posting dumb interpretations of their own philosophy in order to get you to talk about and correct them. If you see that the thread topic is communist related think first and don't post.
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>>4493873
I'm laughing at all of you, because any teleological philosophy is retarded.
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>>4493628
I do not talk about political beliefs and convictions here at all. I'm talking about you calling Marx autistic brainlet writing crap...

Could you explain how Atutistic brainlet from lower middle class secured connections and patronage with many members of the elite, capitalists and aristocracy.

And why his crap took hold of the whole world.

You clearly are much smarter than Marx. At least that is what you imply. Care to share your achievements and gravitas then?
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>>4493927
What would be the problem in someone posting a corrected version of such philosophy? You sound parsnoid btw.
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>>4492774
Marx is the culmination of 19th century pseudo-science. History cannot be defined as simply as "class struggles"
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>>4492774
if a bunch of autists never sperged out in russia marx would be just another 19th century meme philosopher like stirner. you should not take anything he says about history seriously.
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>>4494050
>He doesn't know that the first Marxist government came to power in Germany (SDPD), and, basically, all around Europe at the time.
Let me guess: amerimutt.
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>>4494022
Its a fact that they come here trying to brainwash the site. starting to think you are one.
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>>4494022
>You sound parsnoid btw.
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>>4494022
>You sound parsnoid btw
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>>4494103
wrong
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>>4492774
>history is the story of a humankind and its completely irrelevant what classes do what
No, you have it completely backwards.
The particular actions taken throughout life by the vast majority of individual people are what's irrelevant. Most people live and die without doing anything noteworthy enough to become a part of written history.
The collective behavior of entire classes on the other hand is very obviously noteworthy enough to become written history.
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>>4492774
>history is the story of a humankind and its completely irrelevant what classes do what.
you are just stupid
If not the class struggles there would be no democracy in Athens, the known structure of roman senate, almost all revolutions and so on
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>>4492774
t. never read marx
At least read Wikipedia articles
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>>4493506
Marx was a bloatgod?
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>>4493748
It is flexible enough to be applied anywhere in that anywhere can have communism, but his model was for western Europe alone.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/draft-3.htm
For Marx, successive stages of productive modes were not necessarily "inevitable", but simply something that had actually occurred in Europe, according to his view. It does not need to proceed as such. His limited writing on Asia is quite different from his European writing (most of it).
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>>4494146
>christian theology is absolutely compatible with communism
Fucking hell leftists don't even qualify as conscious at this point.
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>>4492774
Marx wasnt fat
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>>4495290
>For Marx, successive stages of productive modes were not necessarily "inevitable"
Yes they are, he even says so in the communist manifesto. Marxism is a bunch of teleological mumbo-jumbo.
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>All of Marxism is built upon the LTV
>The LTV is clearly false
>People are still bothering to discuss Marxism
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>>4494132
There's quite a leap from that to assuming that even a thread that's obviously started by an anti-marxist post is a secret commie or that questioning this makes me one of those shills. Nice paranoia.

>>4494140
>>4494146
Nice pictures, now where exactly do they show a plan to false flag as anti-communists to get people to correct them? And again, how would people posting a corrected version be a problem? This is like a board to discuss or sth.
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>>4492774
You'd benefit by actually adressing and criticizing his argument.
Class conflict is regularly a phenomenon through history, though rarely is it the exclusive or most important phenomenon.
Classes have in the past and present regularly found common ground by identifying a national, cultural, or political goal, whether that be maximizing exports, confronting a national security threat, or ensuring personal liberties.
Moreover, the economic class of an individual or group is often the result of other factors, like nationality, ethnic and social groups, or (as any good economist would explain) social mobility due to entrepreneurship.
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>>4492774
Read Dialectical Materialism
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>>4493331
best post in thread
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>>4493537
greekaboos go away
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>>4493927
worker's are exploited you can't get past this
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>>4494140
>>4494146
what is your problem

they want you to consider their struggle and ideas
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>>4496396
In what sense?
You can't just talk about worker's rights in any system without regard to the particular circumstances, unless you believe that thing called the 'employer,' is fundamentally unjust.
Which is frankly absurd.
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>>4492774
history is rich people doing stuff that makes them richer, and poor people writing about it because rich people paid them to or to document the atrocities in hopes of somehow finding a way to combat it.
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>>4496414
The problem isn't necessarily that they want to convert (though it's irritating for sure), the problem is that they're deliberately misrepresenting their opposition and avoiding honest discussion.
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>>4496311
>Nice pictures, now where exactly do they show a plan to false flag as anti-communists to get people to correct them?
There are two entire boards of them on cripplechan, which was where that thread originated:
https://8ch.n*t/leftypol/index.html
https://8ch.n*t/leftpol/index.html
The recent overabundance of shitty memes flooding several 4chan boards also originated there. Hilariously, the reason for having two separate boards was ideological fragmentation over moderator policies.
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>>4493608
>>4493628
Can you start talking about marxism Instead of calling eachother brainlets?
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>>4496512
What's the difference?
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>>4492774
>>"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles"

Could someone tell me how class struggle relates to the to the first and second fitnah's ?


It seems pretty clear to me that the history is determined not by class struggles but for a struggle of succession of a religious empire.

Infact it seems likely that there are many examples of times and places in history where class struggle is of minor or negligible importance.
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>>4496470
But no one is doing that ITT
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>>4496024
>All of Marxism is built upon the LTV
Here is were you are wrong. Labour theory of value is salvaged from the blueprints, arranged and published by Frederic Engels. It wasn't even finalised and approved by Marx as a final cut.
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>>4496565
The thing about false flagging is that you typically wouldn't know.
What we do know is that ideological types tend to be quite dishonest with themselves and others.
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>>4493174
>>4493226
>>4493269
What about the extended periods of human history where the ruling class won and were in complete domination of the so called "class struggle" such that there was no significant struggle and the course of history and living conditions were decided entirely by the whims and personalities of those rulers and any resentment or attempt at "struggle" by the lower classes had negligible affect on history?

Are marxists going to pretend that "class struggle" was a more important part in shaping the history of say the middle east from the 7th century onwards than the cult of personality of muhammad?

or that class struggle was more important in shaping 16th century england than the decisions of henry the 8th?

do these people feel know discomfort within themselves from being so dishonest?
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>>4496438
>microcephalicwojak.png
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>>4496592
>I have no evidence but the preconceptions I have on these people
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>>4496619
see >>4494140
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>>4496619
And the threads on leftypol anon has already posted, unless those are the real false flags?
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>>4496582
Marx's concept of value presumes the LTV. Marx just divided it up into arbitrary categories.
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>implying anyone is a Marxist in the traditional sense any longer

>implying most of the people who call themselves leftists today aren't post-materialist, post-structuralist academic retards who both resent themselves for their shitty life choices and the fact that they love their privilege and bourgeois status

>implying there exists a true class-oriented socialist movement worldwide

>implying capitalism didn't win
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>>4496638
Stop assuming that he's arguing in good faith. The abundance of short, quippy "gotcha" posts made over the last 30 minutes should indicate that much.
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>>4496636
>>4496638
Even without mentioning how this screencap doesn't take the full thread, it at best only proves intent, show me what you claimed they are doing is what is happening in /his/ or hell ITT
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>>4496616
Marx couldn't even succinctly explain the transition from feudalism to capitalism in Germany using his methodology. He had to invent an an ever-changing, amorphous list of historical "stages" for that.
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>>4496662
>show me what you claimed they are doing is what is happening in /his/ or hell ITT
As I said in the first post, one wouldn't know whether or not it's happening.
That would be the point of doing it.
>>4496657
>Stop assuming that he's arguing in good faith.
I never made any such assumption.
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>>4496643
>Marx's concept of value presumes the LTV
It aligns with LTV (well, obviously), but it aligns with, say, Marginalism/Pareto efficiency just as well. Nothing in Marxism depends on LTV, and it itself was not published nor approved by Marx himself as a final cut.
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>>4496671
Then all you have is a screencap where at best 2 or 3 anons out of 5 shows interest in doing and using it as a representation of a whole board. I could go to /pol/ and easily false flag and get a screencap too.

The only real way you can prove this is really happening would collect data here instead of /leftypol/. Make some carefully edited screencaps on /his/, it would make your narrative more believable
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>>4496693
The entire thesis of part 1 of Das kapital is that all social value is inherently derived from labor, although it may be obfuscated through exchange.
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>>4496716
So they are the false flags then?
Like I implied before, this discussion is absurd.
I won't false flag or demonstrate false flagging because it's a moot point, I assume some people of any ideological stripe are doing it.
I doubt your honesty due to the evangelical stance your type usually takes.
People like me have no need to convert, and thus no need for dishonesty.

If someone I align with makes a fool of themselves, I correct them and fix their argument.
If someone I don't align with makes a mistake, I point it out.
If in the end, no one comes around to my side, it makes no difference to me, I have confidence in my integrity and that's enough.
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>>4492774
>products are worth the work it takes to produce them! Supply and demand is a capitalist lie!
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>>4496724
Of course. This wasn't Marx own assumption, but stated as much by Adam Smith. So?
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>>4496748
I never said or mentioned that they are false flags, only that the screencap proving nothing at all.

>I doubt your honesty due to the evangelical stance your type usually takes.
>People like me have no need to convert, and thus no need for dishonesty.
Oh please, people like you have the purest of ideologies
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>>4496764
Karl Marx does not dispute supply and demand theory though? He merely claims that the value of products is not truly reflected in prices in a capitalist system.
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>>4496788
>Betchu didn noe thi butt Marks used adum smuths flaud theori chegmate gabidalists
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>>4496817
I wouldn't say I'm ideological, rather I'd simply claim a loose association of values.
I also wouldn't say I'm necessarily morally upright. I'm just not a hypocrite or a liar.
Ideology is a spook.
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>>4496819
>what is the transformation problem
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>>4496861
>Ideology is a spook.
The purest. I think you broke this scale
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>>4496887
Your posting of /leftypol/ image macros only makes your apologia seem even more astroturfed.
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>>4496864
A key issue in Marx's economic thinking that he himself attempted to solve in the third part of Das Kapital?

I think that the discussion would be more conductive if you stripped away your rhetoric and had a more open and clear argumentation structure. What are you implying? What is your argument? What supports it? Usage of memes, oversimplifications and rhetorical questions really loses the thread of argument here.
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>>4496901
If you can't recognize an old /lit/ meme then you need to stop posting newfag
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>>4496940
Explain the cripplechan filename, then.
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>>4496950
>not knowing about the /lit/ schism
So new
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>>4496903
The existence of the transformation problem in Marx's economic theory exemplifies the flaws in how it purports the establishmet of prices as a reflection of value. If Marx truly had a theory of prices based upon supply and demand, then this problem would not exist.
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>>4496842
So, you can't refute my point and resort to grimacing, being too immature to simply agree with me.
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>>4496962
You mean the 8ch board with like 20 UIDs? I'm doubtful that you post there exclusively.
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>>4496582
It's literally espoused at the start of Das Kapital. It's presented as the foundation for everything to come.
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>>4496966
I think this has already been pointed out in this thread several times, but Marx's usage of a concept of value reliant on Smith's theory of prices doesn't render it correct. At least in Smith's case it was simply a theory of prices, which he noted was incomplete, e.g. in the Diamond-Water paradox.
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>>4496976
Ok. Point to it then.

I'd very much like to see that, because I am firmly sure that you either spout bullshit entirely, or simply don't know what you are talking about.
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>>4497004
Literally the very start of Das Kapital, Commodities. Pretty much this entire section is dedicated to the idea that value is created through labour you fucking brainlet. I was re-reading it again this morning to reacquaint myself with how stupid /leftypol/'s ideas are.
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>>4496993
I have never claimed LTV is correct, not to mention the term "correct" can't really be applied to economic theories.

I have stated that:
A. Labour theory of value was not Marx' unique invention. It was a general trend in economic science, started with Smith and Ricardo, and upheld by many others.

B. Marxism doesn't rely on LTV, and it is fairly obvious, considering LTV was the last thing Marx has ever done in his theory, and did not even finish and approve it for release before he died.
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>>4497028
>Marxism doesn't rely on LTV
Yet it's using the LTV that Marx argues that capitalists are exploiting workers, how else could profits exist? is the basic idea. Have you ever even read this shit?
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>>4496972
Yea I post at /lit/ dumbass
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>>4497028
Marx's theory of exploitation is entirely reliant on the LTV, and thusly so is his historical analysis. This is the history board.
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>>4497047
So, to reiterate, you go to 8ch exclusively to post on /lit/, a board with 5 UIDs and no new posts for the last several weeks, and you come here with a shitty Zizek meme. Got it.
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>>4497061
4chan has /lit/ where I found it. Look who is the one misunderstanding others
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>>4497041
>>4497050
Value being generated by labour is not what was challenged by newer theories, but actual equations and rules for price setting.
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>>4497090
You're conflating two separate post chains:
1. The LTV is faulty, and therefore so is Marx's economic and historical theory.
2. Marx does not adequately employ the laws of supply and demand in a theory of prices.
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>>4497084
Lel ok, nice 4chang filename, then
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>>4497090
>Value being generated by labour is not what was challenged by newer theories
Except it is, I don't even know how to respond to someone who thinks economics hasn't progressed a day since the 19th century. You'd be better served killing yourself desu.
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>>4497121
Unlike you, I know modern theories very well. Marginalism, for example, arguably the most advanced theory to date. It only denies that the prices are determined by the prices of production. However, As Pareto optimum is reached, marginal utility and marginal labour costs align, which underlines Marx' own assumption, that the most efficient mode of production is reached when that is the case.
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>>4497173
Don't try and be such a pseud next time, you can say profit maximisation without acting like a tard. Everyone who's studied micro-economics knows about this shit, and your dishonest interpretation of the theory does you no favours.
>t. Have actually studied economics at university
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>>4497199
And your counterpoint is?
(apart from namecalling and demagogoy)
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>>4497212
That you're blatantly lying about both
A) Marginalism
B) Marxism
Because you've clearly displayed that you understand neither in this chain. I mean you even showed you haven't even read the first few pages of Das Kapital yet you're willing to jerk off to Marx. Fuck off back to /leftypol/.
>>
Why is the discussion on /his/ so juveline when it comes to marxism? It's all misinterpretation and brainlet wojaks.
You don't see this on /lit/ or even /int/. It's like people here are lectured by youtube sceptics
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>>4497215
Sorry, accusations and claims without evidence and demonstration is still demagogy. I specifically asked for counterpoints apart from namecalling and demagogy... Sad.
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>>4497199
This is a hobby for me, and even I'm familiar with this shit. I swear I've seen Marxists do a better job at obfuscation than this tard.
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>>4497222
>why do people who have read Marx disagree with Marx
Maybe it's you who's the brainlet.
>>4497228
If you're going to calculate marginal cost which you're going to need in marginalism then you're going to need all the costs involved in production. (costs, not prices you retard) so your understanding that marginalism is clearly lacking.
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>>4497244
Calm down spaz. Watching Steve Crowder or Thomas Sowell discuss Marx is not the same thing as reading Marx
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>>4497285
simply ebin
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>>4497285
And yet i've actually read Marx...I literally have an old worn out copy of Das Kapital next to me, I can upload a picture of it if you'd like.
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>>4496653
>resent themselves for their shitty life choices and the fact that they love their privilege and bourgeois status
Yeah...
Anon, I don't like the current world. Allowing people like me to be born far more wealth than the plebs feels off. It's not right that some are just lucky and most are not.




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