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Which is the true Church? I know the Catholic Church is thee Church founded by Christ but at the same time Catholics have such weird practices like veneration of Mary, purgatory and saints etc. Also the Pope's worry me like the popes whp slept with harlots etc. Im very drawn to high church Lutheranism. Please help me
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>>4986349
Messianic Judaism.
>>
Whichever speaks to you, focus on messages not past hypocrites, follow your heart anon.
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>>4986349
None, all present forms of Christianity are deviated from Jesus' original teachings to the degree that you may as well not even bother.
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>>4986349
>true Church
anon, I...
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orgodox
>the Catholic Church is thee Church founded by Christ
you're buying into their propaganda; the bishop of Rome is not the supreme head of the church
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>>4986469
Whats your view on Mary and saints?
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>>4986349
Christianity is a false religion
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>>4986481
Why?
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you certainly will not find the "true church" in Catholicism.
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>>4986570
I kinda agree but still. Why not?
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Islam
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>>4986349
A genuine heart seeking god is saved
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>>4986349
The “true church” is the Body of Christ which is a mystical community of all sincere disciples of Jesus regardless of their denomination. There are many wolves in sheep’s clothing so you cannot depend on outward appearances to tell if someone has been redeemed, only those who have the Holy Spirit inside them are saved. Those who have the Holy Spirit within them will in fact manifest this in a visible way but external things by themselves are not enough, it is only when a person’s internal and external ways are in Christ that makes them a Christian.
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Bump
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>>4986349
Gnostic church
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>>4986363
>>4986368
>>4986373
>>4986466
>>4986469
>>4986481
>>4986682
>>4986757
>>4987408
You will all burn
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>>4986349
Find a Catholic church that's pre vactian II
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>>4986373
>None, all present forms of Christianity are deviated from Jesus' original teachings to the degree that you may as well not even bother.

The Church of the East literally exists because it refused to accept changes made in the 400s. One can argue the same about Monophysites. Did it already deviate that much in the time of Constantine?
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>>4987413
They're same they just speak latin only instead
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>>4987412
Says who Larper?
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>>4987427
>changes made in the 400s
Why do people who have no idea what they're talking about insist on posting?
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It's a historical fact that the Christianity after Paul is very different from Christianity prior to Paul's teachings in the East. If you're looking for a "pure" version of Christianity then it was snuffed out short after Christ's death. Christianity's "purest" form is an offshoot of Judaism. Anyone arguing different is simply ignorant.
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>>4987983
How can you claim to know what pre-Pauline Christianity looked like when Paul's epistles are the earliest New Testament writings?
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>>4987983
>2000 years later and they are STILL judaizing
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>>4987997
>>4988004
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian
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I don't understand why people sperg so much about denominations. The core messages of the Bible are simple and I hardly think God cares what brand of church you go to so long as your devotion is true and you stick to the main tenants. I think it's funny how Christianity is a religion of forgiveness yet some people who only converted a year or two ago go around telling people they're going to Hell for whatever stupid shit they don't like.
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>>4988012
I suppose I should not be surprised that your understanding of the early church is based off Wikipedia articles...
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>>4987997
I don't claim to know what pre-Pauline Christianity looked like. What I am stating is that Christianity as taught and led by Christ was a sect of Judaism. Paul, to broaden the appeal, was a primary force in that divergence. Surely you agree Christ knew Christian teachings the best, yes?
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>>4988035
If Christ was an orthodox Jew, why did the Pharisees conspire to murder him?
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>>4988038
Who said he was orthodox? I think calling himself the Messiah is pretty unorthodox don't you think?
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>>4988035
>I don't claim to know what pre-Pauline Christianity looked like.

>>4987983
>It's a historical fact that the Christianity after Paul is very different from Christianity prior to Paul's teachings
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>>4988040
You said Christianity was a sect of Judaism i.e. that it is orthodox.

How can Christianity be considered Judaism if it is unorthodox i.e. different than Judaism?
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>>4988038
They didn't. He was killed by the Romans and or Sadducees for being troublemaker.
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>>4987960
Every ecumenical council is a change of dogma and morals. Not taking part in one, is not taking part in a change.
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>>4988050
Not according to the earliest written accounts of the crucifixion.
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>>4988048
That's not what orthodox means, you dolt.

>>4988041
>We know Christianity was different pre-Pauline
>I know what pre-Pauline Christianity looked like
These are not the same.
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>>4988060
>Orthodox adj. 1. (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.

So if Christianity is not generally or traditionally accepted as Judaism, how can it be Judaism?
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>>4986349
Rastafarians the only thing close to jesus or christianity, take ur fucking meds (((psychadelics)))
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>>4988075
Because it wasn't orthodox Judaism, you fucking dolt. It was a Jewish sect. Are Conservative/Reconstructionist/Reform Jews not Jewish? Were Arrian/Monophysite Christians not Christian? Actually, don't answer. You're simply bickering because you don't have a counter argument.
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>>4988101
My argument is that Christianity is distinct from Judaism as evident by the fact that the Jews rejected Christ and had Him murdered.
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>>4988164
Nicene Christians rejected Arian Christians. That doesn't suddenly mean they're not Christians and even Nicenes just after the council would not refer to Arians as non-Christians.
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>>4986349
I recommend looking through the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where they do address many of the issues that you have concerning their doctrine.
http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/files/assets/basic-html/toc.html
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>>4988248
Actually Nicene Christians do not consider Arians to be Christians and that is why they were declared to be anathema. Likewise, Jews do not consider Christians to be Jewish unless they are being obtuse for the sake of causing disputes.
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>>4986349
Well anon, it's important to remember many of these practices are steeped in ancient traditions, such as the veneration of Mary. You should look into why we Catholics venerate Mary as the Mother of God. And it is also important to remember that the Church is a human institution and thus not every Pope or priest can be perfect. Don't listen to the Orthodox memers who think they're the true church because Francis does "cuck shit". Basing your religion solely on the politics preached does not determine if it's true or not.
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>>4988395
“You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions” - Jesus Christ
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>>4986349
>Which is the true Church?
The one in flames
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>>4988425
t. friend slayer
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>>4986349
Yes, goy, stick with Protestant denominations. They're flexible on your beliefs and you can choose what you like and don't like.
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>>4988449
The purpose of sola scriptura is that Christian doctrine must have a biblical basis.
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>>4988449
Thr Catholic Church have come and gone with different beliefs too. Why are Catholics on 4chan so autistic against Prots?
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>>4986349
Syriac Christianity if you want to go to the real roots of christianity, just beware of ISIS
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>>4988714
Please tell me more about Syriac Christianity
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>>4988384
Actually you should really read some sources about the Nicene Council and early Christian heresy. Nicenes considered Arians heretics, but not apostates. Heretics are recognized as Christian, in some sense, but having formally denounced core doctrine while apostates have totally abandoned Christian faith altogether. They (on the whole) gave Arians a Christian burial, for instance, something not afforded to apostates (on the whole) or those completely divorced from the church that were executed.
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Maybe this will help OP

Orthodoxy is your best bet, but there are other Churches that consider themselves Catholic (Universal)
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>>4988714
Nearly half of Syrian Christians (not 'Syriac' which is another way of artificially avoiding reference to the nation-state) are from southern India, not near I. S. I. S., and the ones that are near it have already had a presence in the West before they existed to the extent that the 'Nestorian' patriarchate / catholicate was located in Chicago, USA, from around 1940-2015, due to British exile from Iraq.
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>>4988727
Well, i was born a syriac maronite myself, i've never really been super religious but i can understand why people chose to come closer to god.

Syriac christians are christians around the levant (lebanon, palestine, israel, syria) and they are basically remnants of the original group of people who followed jesus christ, during the Islamic period they oftenly faught with the byzantines to regaint the levant, they also joined the catholic crusaders when they showed up in the levant. Today there's not many left, but they still recide mainly around mount lebanon, and some cities it syria, though isis killed a bunch.
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>>4988739
It is syriac, when i say syriac i don't mean syrian, syraic christians refer to both orthodox and catholic groups around the levant.
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>>4986349
Catholic or Orthodox. everything else is heretical nonsense
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>>4988753
>Paulian talking about heretical nonsense in others.
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Either you don't know what you are talking about, or you are talking about some other christian sect.

Syriac christianity has nothing to do with India.
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>>4988764
Meant for
>>4988739
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>>4988755
>2000 years later and Jews are STILL asshurt over St Paul the Kikeslayer
Based Paul.
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>>4988746
First of all, it does not refer to just the Levant. That's why you think it's not Syrian when it does not refer to just the Levant/Syria anyway. Syrian/Syriac Christians also are in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and India. They've been called that for centuries.

Second, I never said Orthodox or Catholic, and you're forgetting even what I just mentioned, Nestorians, who were once at least half of all Syrian Christians, and did not ally with Crusaders but with the Mongols.

Just look at the Syriac Orthodox Church, they only changed their name from Syrian Orthodox a few years ago. Only because there's a country called Syria, and many of their members are in Iraq and India.

Syrian/Syriac does not refer to the Levant countries, in fact even in the 300s they were calling Iraq Syria, due to speaking Syriac. Most "Assyrians" today call themselves Syrian Christians. What defines Syrian/Syriac Christianity is the literature and rituals in or derived from Syriac, or Aramaic, which is culturally different from the Greek and Latin traditions.
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>>4988764
No, I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about. You can easily check this on Wikipedia. Maronite rite is from Antioch, Malabarese Indian is from Edessa and Antioch. The Syriac language was spread as far as Beijing by Nestorians. It is not at all limited to Lebanon, Palestine and Syria.
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>>4988785
>>4988776
>did not ally with Crusaders but with the Mongols.
>The Maronites welcomed the conquering Christians of the First Crusade.[17] Around the late 12th century, according to William of Tyre, the Maronites numbered 40,000 people.
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>>4988785
I don't think you realize what i'm saying, when i say india and china has nothing to do with Syraic christianity, i mean that it's not the homeland/origin of the syriac christians.

You don't have to tell me this, i literally speak aramaic, i grew up on the lebanese-syrian border.
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>>4988790
Reread the sentence. I said Nestorians allied with the Mongols, I wasn't speaking of others.

>>4988794
>I don't think you realize what i'm saying, when i say india and china has nothing to do with Syraic christianity, i mean that it's not the homeland/origin of the syriac christians.

Okay, fine, if that's what you're saying. But even then, the ones in India, who have been there continuously for centuries, are believed to have been founded by St. Thomas in the first century, and possibly descend from Syriac-speaking immigrants.

>You don't have to tell me this, i literally speak aramaic, i grew up on the lebanese-syrian border.

That's not proof of authority, because I also speak it, which is why I'm arguing here, and many people who speak it don't know everything about this. I know that the area in Syria near Lebanon speaks Aramaic, including the places Maaloula, Jubbaddin and Baxa, and it's sort of rare, or something like that, is that what you mean when you say you speak it? Or did you learn it as a Maronite? For the record if I'm revealing that I speak it, I should say that most who speak it from Iraq, Iran, and parts of Turkey, even though they're not Levantine, call themselves Syriac/Syrian Christians as their actual name even today. I prefer Syrian because Syriac is the language, its like when people say "Semitics" or "Arabics" instead of Semites and Arabs.
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>>4988836
it's
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>>4988836
Very well, i don't think we actually disagreed apon anything in that case lol.

Never thought i'd actually come to a consensus with someone on 4chan.
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>>4988776
>>4988836
>Most "Assyrians" today call themselves Syrian Christians.

No we don't. We call ourselves Assyrian, Chaldean or Aramean
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>>4988873
Alright. Then that's settled. But I would still like to know if you know Aramaic from the Qalamun Mountains people in Syria, close to Baalbek, Lebanon, or from somewhere/something else. They speak as their daily language an unusual form of Aramaic, supposedly closer to what the early Christians in Israel/Palestine spoke than others.
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The Holy Catholic, Apostolic Orthodox Church.
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>>4988908
I am speaking of what they call themselves in their own language. Assyrian was not used as a popular name for themselves until the 19th century. Arameans, maybe not until the 20th century. Chaldean as the name of a church is 16th century, but it only started using as a popular name for themselves until the 20th century, I believe. All of these are new names, and the Assyrians and Chaldeans, on the one hand, and "Arameans", on the other, each used a word meaning Syrian or Syriac. If you are one of these people, then you ought to know this. Because " Syrian" and "Assyrian" do not even use the same letter and sound for the first S and SS. So you could not get confused about the word I am referring to, unless you think it means Assyrian, which it does not.
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>>4988937
Actually, one correction. A few of them do use the same sound for these words.
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>Big alcoholic
>Have problem with myself because of past and stuff
>Want to find a way to get out of this shit
>Know myself enough to know i can easily be manipulated in some sort
>Understand that I can choose a religion to help myself have a better life
>Don't know what religion to get myself into
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>>4988912
>Aramaic from the Qalamun Mountains people in Syria
Yes and no, my parents speak that type of aramaic, i don't speak pure aramic, i mix it with french and arabic. That is because i moved east and lived in a french-speaking community.
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>>4988730
I am familiar with the Nicene council and the fact is Arians are non-Trinitarian which places them outside the fold of Christianity and into “cult” territory along with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the cursory research I did investigating your claims I did not find anything to suggest that Christians considered Arians to be the same religion and in fact one website even used Arius as the prime example of an apostate (https://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy.html) I also did not find anything suggesting that Arians were given Christian burials. If you have sources that suggest otherwise please post them but if you cannot I must conclude that you are simply lying.
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>>4986349
Presbyterianism.
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>>4986349

While some churches are genuinely terrible (see: mormons, televangelicals, prosperity gospel), most are composed of people genuinely trying to follow the word of God. I don't know who has the most "correct" version, but it seems unlikely that you're doomed to hell because it turns out you really shouldn't have been venerating saints all along, whoopsie doodles those 40 years of prayers and good works are worthless now.


More than a specific church, find a priest/preacher/whatever who really speaks to you and clearly has a personal connection to God, with an active congregation.
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orthodox church is most certainly the closest to a "true" church but roman catholicism is an acceptable substitute if you live in a western country without an established orthodox tradition
but really it doesn't matter all that much as long as you avoid some of the more heretical american evangelical sects
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>>4988975
All good works are worthless. Only Grace saves, and Jesus only gives Grace to CHRISTIANS, not whatever heretical shit you peddle.
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>>4988956
I see, well, that's very interesting to me. I hope I can learn that dialect eventually. I have heard it and I can't understand a lot of it now. I hope that 'your people' keep preserving it. Many speakers from Iraq, Iran, etc., which I believe are over a million, don't know it's spoken there.

This picture is of the Christian monument in China that has Syriac on it. It was built more than a millennium ago. Just posting because it's interesting, and shows how far they got, but the Nestorians mostly went extinct there after 1400.
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>>4989041
>syriac
looks like chinese ideograms
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Since this thread has already been started, and I don't feel like polluting /his/'s catalog with more threads on this subject, I'll put this question out: How much of Christian theology/doctrine comes from Neo-Platonism or Stoicism, and how much of it was actually created by Jesus/borrowed from Judaism?
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>>4989056
Almost all of it comes from various Greek sources, although I wouldn't put all of it on the ones you named; there's significant influence from things like fertility cults (especially the death-ressurection while washing away sin motif that is extremely important in Christianity).

Christianity drew a lot of history and imagery from Judaism, but almost none of the theology. As for what Jesus himself personally invented or borrowed, that's extremely hard to say; it's not like we have a set of quotes from the guy from a source a skeptical academic would actually trust.
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>>4989056
Jesus' social teaching has a lot in common with that of the pharisees, particularly Hillel the Elder and Shammai.

Christian eschatology mainly draws from Second Temple Jewish apocalypticism, which itself was heavily indebted to Zoroastrianism (this is where the resurrection of the dead to be judged, and good versus evil cosmic dualism come from)

The dying for our sins thing seems to be an original Christian invention by his followers after his death.

E.P. Sanders' Jesus and Judaism, Bart Ehrman's Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium are some good books on the subject.
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>>4989041
>'your people'
My people are your people my man, i think it's important for middle eastern christian and aramaic communities to be preserved. The dream is that maybe one day Syraic christians could get their own piece of land somewhere and unite.

But that's obviously stretching it.
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>>4988964
You serious with that link? Wanna throw me a yahoo answers while you're at it.

Source for delineating between heresy and apostasy and the mention of Arians as heretics: The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church

As for a source on heretical burial practice read the Corpus Juris Civilis. It outlines how heretics are tried as criminals. "Christian" criminals are buried in separate sections from Jews and non-Christians. "A Relational Approach to Mortuary Practices within Medieval Byzantine Anatolia" discusses the different types of graves.
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>>4989048
I believe it's at the very bottom, as a signature. Syriac was already written vertically sometimes in the Middle East, and apparently this matched the practices in East Asia. Or maybe it was taken from East Asia. Either way, there was transmission of writing systems over the Silk Road.
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>>4989155
Thank you for the sources. Can you demonstrate that Arians specifically are considered "Christian criminals" within the Corpus Juris Civilis? It is a large leap to apply the Oxford Dictionary definition of heretics to a Byzantine law collection. I also did a word search in the "Relational Approach to Mortuary Practices" (https://theses.ncl.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/10443/2307/1/Moore%2C%20S.V.%2013.pdf) and Arians are not mentioned at all.
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>>4989153
Wasn't Lebanon supposed to be that land
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>>4986349
>Which is the true Church?
>>4986363
>>4986481

Abrahamic religion does not worship God as a policy - they worship worldly violence and cruelty - there are worshipers of God in churches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytp-bR-4rHw
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>>4986476
Same as catholic, pretty much
Begome high-church protestant anon
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>I know the Catholic Church is thee Church founded by Christ
How do you know? Of course, I'm expecting a logical deduction free from any appeal to tradition.
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Nothing the original texts have been twisted by the romans to fit their own agenda which lead to the creation of the catholic church its all a lie so stick to what comforts you the most
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>>4986349
Gnostic, because it's not corrupted by greedy catholic priests
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There isn't one. Become a Quaker.
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>>4988164
So Catholics aren't actually Christian because Protestants have killed them?
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>>4989259
The Nicene Creed referred to Arians as such:
>But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'— they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church lays the differences in treatment between heretics and apostates since "heresy" and "apostasy" are anachronistic terms invented to describe the different treatment of these groups. These are definitions invented by the Catholic Church we should note and were used with the Corpus Juris Civilis for centuries after Justinian for treatment of those outside of orthodox dogma. The Corpus Juris Civilis lays out how heretics are treated (as criminals but not non-Christian ones as seen by the fact they are given the opportunity to repent) and the "A Relational..." article lays out Byzantine burial practices for criminals and non-Christians.

If you're going to be nitpicky and expect a written source from 325 that explicitly states "From henceforth, all Arians will be buried as criminals, but Christian ones" then needless to say that doesn't exist.
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>>4989348
You're creepy Imperial Cult. Have you sought out help for your mental health?
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Bump
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>>4990135
The issue is that there are degrees of heresy and rejecting the Trinity is so extreme as to place Arianism outside the Christian religion. For instance Roman Catholics acknowledge the Orthodox as Christians even though they hold doctrines considered heretical whereas they do not consider Mormons to be Christian. Why is one group considered Christian and the other not despite both being “heretics?” It’s because of the severity of the heresy; the filioque controversy is relatively minor whereas denying the Trinity cuts to the heart of Christian doctrine.
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>>4986349

>veneration of Mary

Nothing unbiblical about veneration, poorly catechized Catholics sometimes cross the line though. Purgatory is a biblical concept as illustrated in Maccabees where the Jews pray for the expiation of the dead. Saints are the same case as Mary, veneration is not wrong, they are people to be admired and models of Christian living.

All the of the issues people have with Catholicism invariably seem to come from folk practices by the unlearned lay people.

t. non-Catholic Deist.
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>>4988735
This is so wrong
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>>4986349
I thought I was a protestant until I got side tracked when learning about the byzantines. Ended up reading about the orthodox church. Converted a few years ago.
Just do some research and go with what you believe.

>>4987412
What is your church then?
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>>4986349
Orthodox
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>>4987412
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>>4986349
this one
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Bump
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>>4991691
>converting just because you read about something.
Read Spinoza and Hume, in that case.
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>>4991281
Mormons aren't considered Christians because their teachings are so far outside of Christian dogma that they contradict fundamentally Christian beliefs. For lack of a better word, they LARP as Christians.

Also you're anachronistically applying the weight of tradition to your arguments against Arianism. 1600 years of doctrine have been built upon Nicene beliefs. The concepts we associate with the Trinity were not common theological principles as recent as 100 years prior to the Nicene council and there was no agreed upon unified doctrine prior. All this to say, it wasn't as heretical back then as is now.




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