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Is it true that Rome collapsed because of socialism, mass immigration and multiculturalism?
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It collapsed because of communism and the subsequent collectivization of slaveholding, which reduced the value of slaves overall, crashing the slave market in Italy.
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>>5469877
It collapsed because it hit peak timber
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>>5469877
It collapsed because God willed it.
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>>5469877
No it was globalism. Farmers in Italy went out of business and grain was cheaper in the rest of the Empire, rich people bought up all the land. Rome was doomed when they killed gracchi brothers
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Rome didn't collapse.
Rome Byzantine Moscow
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It was ancient aliens
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>>5469877
It collapse due to degeneracy, immorality, heresy, weakness, unvirility, dishonesty, untastefulness, bad manners, dysgenics, materialism, hedonism, cowardice, disunity, promiscuity, deviant behaviour, weak mores, indecency, feminism and lead pipes, fuck lead pipes.
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>>5469942
You mean Washington DC
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>>5469955
could you be any more redundant
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>>5469877
Can you give an example of a monoculture whose population exceeded 200 individuals?
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>>5469996
Coastal Han China today
>>
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>>5469877
it collapsed because of Venetian merchants
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>>5469942
Wrong, dumbass.
Rome, Byzantine, Ottoman, America.
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>>5470015
comparing rome to the united states in this way is inherrently wrong

also all of those points don't apply to rome
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>>5470015
>rome fell due to the dollar collaps
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>>5469877
It collapsed due to feminism, the gay rights movement, BLM, jews, degeneracy, cuckoldry, a loss of white identity, and hillary clinton
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>>5469877
Rome collapsed because they lost the Roman spirit and became corrupted by outside influences. They were Roman in name only. The Roman spirit died in the middle of the Julio-Claudian dynasty
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Far-right retards who try and parallel rome with america are the worst pseuds ever. In Molyneux's video he gets everything wrong and confused. He takes about the fall of the Roman city as if that was end - Rome wasn't even the capital at that point, Rivenna was and Rome had 1000 people living in it. Furthermore, he says the grain laws was "socialism" (absolute horseshit) and it caused the collapse - the grain laws had been in place for fucking 400 years when the roman empire ended and BEFORE Rome's greatest extent, so it took its sweet fucking time.
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>>5470166
What actually ended Rome was the collapse of the slave system and transition to feudalism.
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>>5469942
>Rome didn't collapse.
THIS. Western Roman Empire became European Union and Eastern Roman Empire became Russian Federation.
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>>5469942
Rome -> Charlemagne -> France and Germany -> European Union
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>>5470015
Ah, yes, I remember when Roman dollar collapsed. That was terrible. I think Caesar said something like "damn these jews in the Central Bank, we mustn't let the dollar collapse"
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>>5470150
>>
>>5470226
Why did you post the picture of the cuckold that liked licking his wife's feet?
>>
What made the Romans have civil wars everytime a general sneezed anyway? What particularly made Rome so prone to civil wars when the countries that replaced it went significantly longer without killing their own people?
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>>5470243
because when rome abandonned its traditional system for professional armies the armies were in the hands of warlords
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>>5470243
The emperor held no legitimacy other than popular/army support, and there was no mechanism to remove emperors when that support was lost.
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>>5470014
Way to expose your own crippling alt right ignorance
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>>5470234
>liked licking his wife's feet?
Based, foot fetishism is patrician fetish
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>>5470291
So why don't modern generals go rogue and try to coup in each other (in developed countries)?
>>5470297
You need quite a bit of popular support to even have a civil war, and not just a "the entire army unites behind the other guy and then they all stab you while you're jerking off in your tent" event
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>>5470150
The so called Roman spirit starting declining after the punic wars.
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>Rome collapsed
Stop with this meme. It went through a centuries long transformation.
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>>5470243
Augustus tried. He even gave soldiers a salary so they wouldn't be that loyal to a general since their livelihood came from Rome instead of their general.
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>>5470332
The Roman empire was ruled by the professional army. The population was both too neutered by decent conforts and not enoguh prone to fight to giving a fuck about who ruled. As Septimis Severus warned his sons, only soldiers support mattered for the emperor.
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>>5470332
>You need quite a bit of popular support to even have a civil war, and not just a "the entire army unites behind the other guy and then they all stab you while you're jerking off in your tent" event
Unless he surrounds himself with his most loyal troops. Which they generally did.

>So why don't modern generals go rogue and try to coup in each other (in developed countries)?
Because modern developed countries are good at maintaining government legitimacy.
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>>5470332
Because Roman armies were inherrently different from modern armies, army leaders were often politicians with interior motives, armies were more loyal to their general then its country, there wasn't the same media coverage and there wasn't a true roman identity like you think there was. Roman society was a lot more tribal than you think it was and a lot of low ranking officers were clientes of ceasar or pompei as they were of Marius and Sulla.

Roman generals openly represented political parties and bribed their way into the state. They almost always owned a province in the Roman state. The reason Ceasar could invade Rome was because the supply lines from gaul were practically his.

as you can see from this jumbled mess, the differences are too vast to summarize
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At its height, Rome had a population of over a million. That is unsustainably huge for that time period and basically REQUIRED constantly gaining more territory so that more resources could flow into Rome.
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>>5470308
way to be a reddit tier fag
>>
Rome fell because [insert whatever is the other side of your political views].

Me so smart.
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>>5470799
Except some political views have been empirically shown to be failures (Communism, anarchism and fascism are the biggest examples)
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>>5469877
Probably the only person on the internet that legitimately triggers me.
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>>5469877
Yes, all caused by Nordics
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>>5470839
wrong the roman ruling class were nordics and the barbarians were nomads from the east
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>>5469877
>mass immigration and multiculturalism
That was definitely part of it, though it is usually referred to as barbarian invasions.
>socialism
Not really.
>>5469942
>>5469989
If you had to call any state the successor of Rome, it would be Italy, Germany or Greece. Russia and America aren't even remotely connected to Rome.
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>>5470799
Rome fell because of wh*te "men".
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>>5470849
why are nordics so weak
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>>5470849
Towards the end, the Roman ruling class (at least the military leaders) and the invading tribes were both Germanic.
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>>5470869
Jews subverted the defenses because of the Jewish wars
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>>5470860
>Germany
You can't call Germany a successor state of anything because Germany itself is a splinter state of the Carolignian Empire, alongside France and the Low Countries.

And I would consider France-Low Countries-Germany + Italy as the true successor of Western empire.
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>>5470808

>The second most successful socio-economic system in history
>Failure

You must have a pretty bleak view of history.
>>
werent the barbarians basically the illegal mexicans of the day
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>>5470884
Capitalism and Feudalism were the most successful socio-economic systems in history
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>>5469877
it collasped because of the 4th crusade and unrelenting pressure from turks, bulgars and serbs
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>>5470894
>Capitalism and Feudalism
Mercentalism existed from 15th to the 19th century and created gigantic global European trade empires.
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>>5470895
>greeks roleplaying
>"Rome"
go home Stavros, you're drunk
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>>5470876
Germany is the state that has the most legitimate claim to being the successor of the HRE, just like Greece with Byzantium.
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>>5470897
Mercantilism is a school of thought within capitalism
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>>5470902
Germany itself is nothing more than splinter state of the Western European superstate, alongside France and the Low Countries.
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>>5470900
I missed the part where the entire eastern side of the empire disappeared the day Odoacer took over Italy
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>>5470920
>Odoacer took over Italy
Odoacer didn't take Italy, he had already had it he just made a de facto into de jure.

And how can Greeks be Roman when they don't speak Latin or any other Latin derived language, don't live in Latium and have no Latin blood in them?

There is only one Rome and her name is Roma.
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>>5470939
how can I be Greek if I was born in England? its called citizenship and the empire had it too. every free man in the empire got citizenship in 220ad
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>>5470952
I'm not actually Greek its just an example
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>>5470939

>Latin blood
I'm sure there was plenty.

>And how can Greeks be Roman when they don't speak Latin or any other Latin derived language, don't live in Latium
Are the Scots Scottish?
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>>5470952
>>5470959
Rome is a culture and identity and Greeks in Byzantium held neither, they stopped using Latin in everyday contexts by late 5th century and stopped using Latin even in formal contexts by the middle of the 6th.

They aren't and have never been Romans.
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>>5470986

Scots don't speak Gaelic, don't live in Scoti, and don't live an iron-age farming lifestyle.
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>>5470243
Divine right of kings saves you from every general with a itch for more power.
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>>5469936
>Rome was doomed when they killed gracchi brothers
This. The (((Patricians))) cared more about increasing their estates than the welfare of their fellow Romans.

Not to mention as soon as poor Roman farmers were conscripted into serving in the Legions, the Patricians who bought their way out of service would then loan money to the soldiers' families so that they wouldn't starve, and then they would seize their farms as payment and turn the soldiers' families into servants.

It was a bullshit system, destroyed by the greedy.
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>>5470986
>language = culture
greece had gladiatorial arenas, roman foods, roman dress, roman weaponry and roman governance
if you change the culture in question to french you would say it was a part of france
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>Germanics were the illegal Mexicans of the day


It's like you retards don't even try
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>>5469877
Yes, if only they shilled for Trump more and were more aware of cultural Marxism they’d still be with us
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>>5470062
>>5470074
>>5470213
The real reason Caesar (truth be upon him) got stabbed was because he suggested quantitative easing as a way of temporarily alleviating the tax burden from the latifundia.
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>>5470166
This! Drawing parralels between the Roman empire and modern day states literally causes cancer
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>>5469877
Christianity.
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>>5471128
it was the general weakening of culture through lack of "need to fight" due to the 100s of years of grain dole and lack of threats to the heart lands
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>>5470769
Reddit has some pretty okay history subreddits, why do newfags always insist on hating on it?
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People saying Rome collapsed because of degeneracy are retarded. There's no way Rome in the time of Caesar or at its height c.AD 100 wasn't already degenerate as fuck.
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>>5470914
meme post
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>>5471143
> lack of general threats to the heartland
> 75% of tax income goes to the military
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>>5471218
thats because they didn't have natural borders across a lot of the empire. you have to pay the garrisons somehow.
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>>5471153
Because it doesn't and you're newfag cancer
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>>5471256
>hurr if you don't participate in our retarded rivalry with another website you're new
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>>5469942
>rightful emperor and heir to Orthodox Byzantine civilization
>constantly spreading his asscheeks for T*rks
embarrassing.
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>>5469942
>Rome
>Byzantium
>St. Petersburg
>Washington
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>>5471263
Its not a rivalry, reddit is a lowest common denominator forum because of its size, 4chan is counter-cultural and has been since it started as a place to talk about anime
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>>5471256
Sure thing, people pulling the reddit card are almost always the people who add the least to the discussion., Just look at this comment, you want me to think you are a grown up dude that can hold an engaging discussion with people? Than stop with these comments and actually say something useful for once.

You're not on /b/ and 4chan isn't the exclusive hacker site you think it is.
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>>5471279
Go to /b/ or /pol/ for your counter culture
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>>5471282
Just look at your original comment, you set some some stupid legalistic goal for someone to cross which added zero to the discussion and then used some mainstream political talking points to dismiss a response to it.
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>>5471303
That was not my comment, but he was right about coastal Han-China being relatively diverse.
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Rome collapsed because money was in the east nearer to egypt, greece, persia. So they moved the capital and forgot about the old capital rome.
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>>5471266
russia is the dominant power here they supply 2/3 of turkeys national gas, have a larger navy nad army
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>>5470166
> grain laws was "socialism"
The function of good government has always been to preserve surplus for lean years; it's literally in the Bible and why they built the pyramids
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>>5471029
If Germanics were the illegal Mexicans, then what was Rome's California, Texas and Florida?
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>>5471557
>California
the entire eastern portion of the empire
>Texas
Sicily
>Florida
Illyricum
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>>5469877
Yes.
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>>5471544

Jesus was a Communist.
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> Rome collapsed because of reason that supports my political view
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Rome collapsed because the wealthy land owners stopped kicking in for defense. They wanted their denarii for themselves.
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Rome collapsed from literally everything at the same time.
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>>5471902
Is that supposed to be a counterpoint or what?
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>>5469877

It collapsed partially because very patch that had been applied to fix one situation had caused a bigger problem down the road.
>>
I've been reading a lot of Polybius lately. The rich in Rome *truly* believed that there was a balance of power between Kings (Consuls), Aristocracy (Senate), and the People (Democracy). He states that the Roman republic was based on a balance between these three styles of government, but clearly the Roman state gave very little power to the people. The aristocracy had degenerated to oligarchy, and the "monarchy" had tried checking the oligarchy for a century before finally producing Caesar.
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>>5472788
>The rich in Rome *truly* believed that there was a balance of power between Kings (Consuls), Aristocracy (Senate), and the People (Democracy)
You should read more before posting drivel
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>>5472788
>>5472788
And that's hardly a unique idea to the Romans - that typology of government, the division into monarchical vs aristocratic vs democratic - became a total commonplace idea in European political thought, and the idea of trying to combine all three forms into a mixed government was one of the basic foundational ideas of European republicanism.

And, in fact, it's literally how the US government is designed - it's intended to be a mixed government in the classic republican sense, with the President embodying the monarchical power, the Senate (originally chosen by state legislatures) embodying the aristocratic element, and the House (directly elected by and proportionate to population) the democratic. And the Supreme Court somewhere off to the side.

Of course, in Rome as in America, it's often more an ideal than a reality. And the reasons for the decline of Rome probably have more to do with the general lack of administrative and systemic capacity - the amount of organizational work the state was able to accomplish, compared to the work that was necessary to accomplish the things that needed to be done to keep a state together. And there were increasing stresses laid onto the state. One of the most significant of these, in both republic and empire, was the lack of a well-developed political military relationship - or, to put it in more basic terms, the people who were in charge of the armies kept taking over the government.

And as that went on, and the population grew more and more unwieldy, and the economic and social imbalances in the population grew, and the external attacks got more sever, it just sort of flew apart under its own weight. With plenty of internal corruption as well, obviously.
>>
the climate was cooling and drying reducing Rome's grain production while other civilizations were adopting new technology and becoming more potent
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Jewish subversion was the primary cause for the decline and fall of rome
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>>5471544
Ben Carson is unironically one of the most intelligent federal cabinet members in history, up there with Jay and Kissinger
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>>5472801

Drivel or not, that's what a primary source actually says, that's what Polybius argues.

>>5472825

Well the idea behind Polybius is Monarchy + Aristocracy + Democracy versus Tyranny + Oligarchy + Mob Rule. The first three are "pure" forms of government, and by having all three, they prevent eachother from degenerating. However, we all know that this wasn't true.
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>>5472926
>Well the idea behind Polybius is Monarchy + Aristocracy + Democracy versus Tyranny + Oligarchy + Mob Rule. The first three are "pure" forms of government, and by having all three, they prevent eachother from degenerating. However, we all know that this wasn't true.

Right, the whole concept goes back before him - I think it's Aristotle originally. It's a really central and common idea.
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>>5472933

Well he attributes the original idea to Lycurgus of Sparta. Where Lycurgus was smart enough to come up with the idea, the Romans were not and had to realize the balance of power through trial and hardship.
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>>5472801

Eat shit, freshman.
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>>5469877
Post-classical neo-christianism my friend
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>>5469955
this but saying it while doing a retard's impersonation
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>>5470799
Rome fell because of the patriarchy
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>>5469955

Lead wasn't really a problem unless the person was malnourished. Lead was bound to the bones, and only released into the bloodstream if a person was starving, forcing the body to break down the bones for calcium (and thus releasing lead as well). I can probably upload a pretty cool analysis of bones at Herculaneum if you would like me to.
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>>5471279
>counter-culture
You mean, arguing without evidence.
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>>5470808
Anarchism hasn't been allowed to exist peacefully at any point long enough to to make a statement either way
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>>5471557
>California
Syria
>Florida
Spain or Africa
Texas
>Thrace and Illyria
>>
>>5469936
>X was doomed two hundred years before its golden age and about a half millenia before it's death, during which times countless things of importance came and went.
Well meme'd my friend!
Next time try not to conflate the republic system with the state.
>>
Plague, famine and hordes of migrating peoples led to an eventual collapse in the west which was already suffering from repeated civil wars and loss of manpower.
>>
>Mass Immigration
This is the only one of three even slightly correct and even then it is very misleading. It wasn't
>Rome let too many barbarians in! Stupid emperors
It was as if the entire nation of Mexico moved into Texas, and the US worked out an awkward arrangement with them. Mexico would make up the bulk of the US military, receive less rights and poor treatment, and have to submit to the governor of Texas selected by DC.
Naturally, the real military power in this case eventually just removed the fiction and took political power
>>
>>5473261

Going a bit deeper, the Goths were ALREADY serving in the Roman military within the Roman Empire, and on the borders.
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>>5471155
Was Rome ever NOT degenerate?
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>>5471557
Are Mexicans undertaking an armed invasion into the US?
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>>5473156
it's very reasonable to distinguish between the republic and the empire, albeit keeping in mind that the transition is gradual and takes a long time and there's still a ton of continuity
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>>5473330
They have arms so yes
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Rome collapsed for a thousand reasons over a period of a thousand years.

If you try to debate this, you're simplifying things.
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>>5473349
No, it was liberals.
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>>5469877
Unironically mass immigration and multiculturalism
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>>5473361

Please provide evidence. Immigration and multiculturalism made Rome last as long as it did. Without Germanics/Goths/other immigrants bolstering the Roman armies, and their families settling land within the empire, Rome would have fallen much sooner.
>>
>>5473368
Literally replacing Roman populations along the frontier and refusing to assimilate across the Limes. While romanitas may have been a meme, it was a meme that kept the empire alive.
>>
>>5473361
Roman immigration was not the same as today's migration and the Roman empire was multicultural the moment they invaded etruria, please go back to your containment board
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>>5473381
If they didn't replace that population along the frontier Rome would have fallen in the third century
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>>5473381

What do you mean? Germanics did assimilate into Roman military culture for the most part, and when civilians crossed the border they were split up and integrated into cultures across the empire. They weren't "Roman" but they were supporting the Roman empire, culture, and way of life. If they hadn't, Rome would have fallen MUCH SOONER. Multiculturalism made the Roman empire last longer. It was the Romans themselves that refused to accept these "Germanics" as actual Romans, even though they were supporting the empire's survival. Despite the Germans support of the military for a long fucking time, certain Gothic tribes were treated like absolute shit when they were fleeing the Huns
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>>5470166
Hi Shaun
>>
>>5473314
Yeah, like, always. Degeneracy is just a rightist meme. In reality Rome was a remarkably conservative society for the entirety of its two thousand year long existence.
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>>5473381

There were literally laws made in rome to punish people who would cut off a finger or scar themselves to not be sent to the front.

Near the end, only the germans believed in the empire and they realized theres no point fighting for a system where most of its people would not defend and looks down upon them.

The late roman army was a well oiled but super overworked machine built for crushing eastern degenerates and uncivilized tribal raiders. But you can only do so much when the civil society is prone to constant bickering and collapse.
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>>5469877
Gingers destroyed Rome and you can not prove me wrong.
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>>5473480
I'm not going to take seriously the idea that the military was blameless in political collapses here, given the frequency of generals taking the throne and the intermittent periods of warlordism
>>
>>5469877
No, too big to maintain
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>>5473498

Sure thing, but that is a failure of their political society to tame and integrate the military to be subservient to the state rather than to whoever leads the army.

That said I doubt anyone could have reformed the system in late rome. It was a problem much earlier in the making but no ones ever been able to fix it.
>>
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>>5471361
Manlets. When will they learn?
>>
Rome fell because of [contemporary political issue I oppose].
>>
>>5469877
>Is it true that Rome collapsed because of socialism, mass immigration and multiculturalism?

>Did that thing that should have collapsed centuries ago collapse because of modern concepts from the 21st century?
>>
>>5471902
Hahaha

This place needs /pol/ing up
>>
>>5469942
Nothing will ever live up to the original
>>
if you are trying to compare middle easterners migrating to pretty much nomadic goths who had lots of warriors you are retarded
>>
>>5473088
Oh, you mean a constant power-vacuum? Yeah, nobody will surely exploit that.
>>
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>>5474285
This. When's the last time a roving band of hundreds of thousands of armed Syrian refugees defeated multiple regular European army units on a march of peoples to the interior?
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>>5474285
This, the Goths just invaded while Middle Eastern migrants are paid tribute to not rape and kill everyone but do it anyway as the oligarchs and politicians crack down on natives who resist the raping.
>>
>>5471902
"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
>>
>>5470444
>and there wasn't a true roman identity
Yes there was, up until the end of 3rd century BC there was a strong Roman identity. In the second Punic war when Hannibal was rampaging across Italy and seemed undefeatable by the Romans, Roman society stood incredibly united across both genders, social and wealth classes, patricians and plebians, commoners and aristocrats, men and women and even slaves were determined to fight the war to the bitter end, as much as pre-industrial society could stand absolutely unified and resolute to win.

In the crisis of the 2nd and 1st century BC, civil wars, and massive expansion of territory under the late republic and empire Rome lost that cultural cohesian and strong identity as central unifying force.
>>
>>5473330
Gothic War initially started as movement of people into Roman borders for protecting against Huns, and when Goths saw that the Romans couldn't defend themselves and weren't willing to provide Goths with enough food not to starve they rebelled and kicked off the endtimes for Rome.
>>
>>5474972
Goths were also payed bribe money by the Romans to behave, not to rampage and not invade, and it was common practice.
>>
>>5473980
being shorter doesn't mean Putin can't be in a stronger geopolitical situation
>>
>>5471153
becuz it disagrees with muh redpill narrative
>>
>>5473468
What even is '''''degeneracy'''''
>>
>>5470201
>Became russian federation

So i guess if you marry your daughter to a king his empire automatically becomes your empire

makes a lot of sense
>>
>>5476577
A XIX century spook
>>
>>5476633
why write a centrury in roman numerals when you know more people understand it as 19th
>>
>>5476145

The Goths weren't just some brand new tribe that showed up at the Roman borders. They were already known to the Romans, and were serving in the military. The ones that showed up at the border were just a different tribe.
>>
>>5470015
Rome's endless wars were actually beneficial, in a way: the decline only started to get serious after the Pax Romana when there wasn't anywhere near as much war-loot flowing into Rome. This would lead to increased taxes and military cutbacks, and various other economic problems.
A lot of the "wasteful spending" was actually an attempt to keep the mobs of peasants living in poverty from being too pissed. If they didn't do that then this shitty boomerbook post would be saying it was an example of greedy leaders not tending to the needs of the common man or something. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
>>
>>5473314
The monarchy and early republic was all about the agrarian lifestyle
>>
>>5477177
They wouldn't have needed a constant influx of plunder if it wasn't for the urban poor and the grain dole. If someone actually managed to fix the problem before the praetorian guard killed them things would have ended up a lot better for Rome
>>
>>5477190
The grain dole was a tiny part of the empire's budget. The overpaid army was a much bigger problem.
>>
This thread represents the major flaws of this board.

>/pol/ shitposting
>/pol/ trying to hamfist their current beliefs on historical examples
>actual facts being posted but are ignored
>thread dies
>>
>>5469877
and senseless degeneracy
>>
>>5478482
/pol/tards are stupid and dogmatic and irritating and they get everywhere.
>>
>>5469877
I though Rome fell because it got invaded by barbarians
>>
>>5476232
geopolitics are a 20th century meme, Russia just suffers under sanctions and there is in no way gonna be an all out war
>>
>>5469877
>>5469936
yes, globalism (mass migration and outsourcing destroyed rome)

besides being flooded with leeches

Rome lived upon outsourcing till ruin stared it in the face. Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome. By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers, carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East, the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt; and the carts brought out nothing but loads of dung. That was their return cargo.
>>
>>5473415
Shaun would never use the word "retard".
>>
>>5469877
>did Ideology created 1000 years after the destruction of rome cause the destruction of rome

idk man. fucking mystery
>>
>>5469877
Praetorians, Christians, Jews, and loss of the Roman spirit/identity
>>
>>5469877
Rome collapsed because of the things I hate today.
>>
>>5470053
Ottoman? You must be fucking drunk
>>
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>>5469877
I mean itbwas more than just those issues, those in particular refer to how there was no proper response to the tensions between Arian Germanic (mainly Alaric I) tribes and Rome itself through religious and economic tensions. I think molymeme also mentions how the usage of foederati significantly placed the actual Roman military at a disadvantage for internal conflict.

I mean, it's not that Molyneux was lying it's just that it takes more than a few hour long podcast to describe the fall of Rome so there is a lot more information he isn't providing.
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>>5469877
Rome collapsed cause of 60 thousand Turk-roaches and some big fucking guns. Oh you mean the shitty Western one? People evading taxes and Vandals having enough of their bullshit.
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>>5470015
Yeah the Roman debt problem got so bad they were practically owned by china who then sent muslim terrorists to attack the capital
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It was gay feminist Jewish immigrants.





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