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Since this board is constantly flooded with Holocaust threads more than the Mississippi River, I thought I'd mix things up a bit with one about the "forgotten" Holocaust.

I guess just go ahead and post anything about Nazi Germany's persecution of the Romani and Sinti peoples before and during WWII. Relevant legislation, written accounts, diaries, interviews, films and books, specific actions and massacres, perpetrators, noteworthy victims and survivors. Its' up to you.

>inb4 Holocaust denial autism

Please keep that shit on /pol/ or in Jewish Holocaust threads at least. I would just like to see one decent thread on this subject.
>>
yeah but its gypsies who cares
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>>5620242
qt on the left
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>>5620242
No one cares about gypsies
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>Please keep that shit in Jewish Holocaust threads at least.

Why encourage people to bring denial shit to Jewish Holocaust threads?
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I'll try, OP.

Some videos, mostly testimony:

3-hour testimony from Julia Lentini, Sinti and Roma survivor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24H25wImOsU

4-hour testimony from Wellesina McCrary, Sinti and Roma survivor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vmpklp9Y5A

^Keep your audio down there's a very large beep tone at the beginning of these.

There's a significant amount of Roma testimony at various museum sites but what is digitized is not always in English or with English subtitles...

Short interview with Lina Jackson, Sinti and Roma survivor, on her camp liberation; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6wcxvbOto

Hour long talk 'Porrajmos: The Romani and the Holocaust with Ian Hancock': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAEJb-p6SOE
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According to eyewitness Mrs. de Wiek, Anne Frank, a notable Jewish Holocaust victim, is recorded as having witnessed the prelude to the murder of Romani children at Auschwitz: "I can still see her standing at the door and looking down the camp street as a herd of naked gypsy girls were driven by, to the crematory, and Anne watched them going and cried."

It hurts to merely imagine what was going through her head bros.
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>>5620369
>Because there's plenty of Jewish Holocaust threads to diffuse that autism into and still have a decent discussion.

Your logic doesn't follow at all. I can count on 1 hand the amount of threads about the Holocaust in the past years that have had decent discussion which does not almost immediately devolve into Holocaust denial, and that's if include threads where half of it was Holocaust deniers and the other half people ignoring it. Only 1 in recent memory without denial taking over it within a few comments, at most.
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>>5620313

Because there's plenty of Jewish Holocaust threads to diffuse that autism into and still have a decent discussion.

We almost never discuss the Porajmos so the denialist bullshit will undoubtedly be worse here.

Also forgot to caption: German troops round up Romani in Asperg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany in May 1940
>>
Rare photos taken of gypsies by German soldiers. The exact dates and nature of the photos is unknown, but since photos of Roma during WWII are exceedingly rare outside of medical experiments and occasionally round-ups, very interesting to see: https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2014/11/gypsy-holocaust

Article is a good read too. Though I never thought about how many people out there may have Holocaust "memorabilia" collections with photos or objects that the public should see.
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>>5620404
and I forgot the photo
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>>5620242
Gypsycaust didn't happen but it should have.
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>>5620404

A lot of the photos of Einastgruppen killings (which included many Romani victims) were also taken by German soldiers for personal albums, very few were taken for official use. This was prohibited but that didn't stop them. There's probably loads of photographs like these that were either destroyed by their cameramen after the war realizing the incriminating nature or sitting around in someone's albums, unopened for 70 years.
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>>5620242
Dude, most people cheer when they hear about Gypsies being persecuted.
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>>5620377
>a herd of naked gypsy girls were driven by, to the crematory
I get the feeling the Krauts just stripped victims naked for the sake of humiliation.
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>>5620441
It's for a few reasons, though I'm sure humiliation played a part sometimes.

They would use the clothing of victims to give to other prisoners or, if it was something nicer, send it to Germany. They could also reuse fabric for the war effort.

If they're going to be burned, you don't want fabrics/metals/etc in there because it makes it more difficult, could produce different types of fumes.

For some of the mass shootings where they mass buried people, they wanted them stripped so that it was less likely anyone could identify them if the bodies were discovered.
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>>5620453
Morbidly interesting. I never knew that.
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>>5620422
Huh never saw the right side of this photo before. Looks like 2 kids and a man? And something else?

Also, oh I'm sure. There's lots of photos we'll either never see, or will only see years down the line if they manage to make their way to auction. Though a lot of sites crack down on selling these, so it's getting harder.
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>>5620441

The victims were usually stripped naked while in a dressing room just outside the gas chamber so you're probably right.

Also

>I remember one set of twins in particular: Guido and Ina, aged about four. One day, Mengele took them away. When they returned, they were in a terrible state: they had been sewn together, back to back, like Siamese twins. Their wounds were infected and oozing pus. They screamed day and night. Then their parents—I remember the mother's name was Stella—managed to get some morphine and they killed the children in order to end their suffering.

You'd think it would've occurred to one of the inmates who was on the verge of snapping to steal a scalpel and stab the bastard to death.
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Korkoro is worth watching. It's a film about a group of gypsies in rural Vichy France who are taken under the wing of a small town's mayor and his assistant. They forge residential papers for the group and buy them a home to help them avoid the laws regarding "travelers" instated by the Vichy regime. It has an unnecessary subplot involve a white French orphan who wants to join the group but other than that, great film about an underrepresented topic.

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu8KPxRKe1E
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>>5620422
Robert Dawson has collected a number of the privately taken photos of Roma executions over the years.Most of them were lined up and killed on the side of the roads and in forests when they were found.

Here's a group, unbeknownst to them, waiting to be killed.
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>>5620504
A different group killed
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>>5620505
A group lined up in Lithuania who will be shot. They have no idea. I don't know if it makes it better for them or worse to be found, lined up presumably being told they want your photo, and then to be killed in compared to what happened with other mass shootings where you would have time to chew on what was going to happen to you.
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>>5620473
That doesn't make for a good story though and how can you raise hundreds of millions of $ to catch villians if you say they are dead
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>>5620513
The man who took the photo titled it "Resettling Gypsies in the woods." Then notes on the back that they were killed minutes later.
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>>5620521
Jews and Gypsies being taken to a quarry.
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>>5620505

There's a rifle and discarded helmet next to the body with dark clothing bottom right.
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>>5620527
Dead Roma, killed in as part of the retaliation against civilians for German soldiers being killed by retreating Polish soldiers
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>>5620513
>those two boys in the center wearing what looks like blue and grey kepis
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>>5620534

There were Romani in Poland?
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>>5620534
Too lazy to load more, but here: http://www.robertdawsongallery.co.uk/

Gallery 1 has all the sub galleries related to the romani holocaust
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>>5620550
Yep. in 1939 there was an estimated population of 50,000 Roma in Poland.
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>>5620555

How many survived?
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>>5620568

Meant for >>5620561

I'm a fucking retard
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>>5620568
Low estimates in Poland are 8,000 dead, higher estimates are 35,000 dead. So... anywhere from around only 30% to 85% survived.

The estimates for the Romani genocide are especially varied because not all of them were ever recorded in a specific population census, and some of them may not have stayed in Poland or any particular country for the duration even if they were.. Also many Romani were simply killed in groups on the road or in woods, with few or no survivors left to report their death.

To quote Wikipedia on the estimates:

>In a 2010 publication, Ian Hancock stated that he agrees with the view that the number of Romanies killed has been underestimated as a result of being grouped with others in Nazi records under headings such as "remainder to be liquidated", "hangers-on", and "partisans". He notes recent evidence such as the previously obscure Lety concentration camp in the Czech Republic and Ackovic's revised estimates of Romani killed by the Ustaše as high as 80,000–100,000. These numbers suggest that previous estimates have been grossly underrepresented
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The most tragic thing about Porajmos is that the gypsies had only been freed from slavery in the 1860s. So less than a century after people stopped legally classing them as livestock, they end up slaughtered wholesale by a bunch of autistic retards.
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>>5620376

The fact she's able to put on a semi-defiant face after the ordeal of a place like Auschwitz is fascinating and worthy of admiration in its own right.

Also what does the Z next to her prisoner number stand for?
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>>5620568
way to many
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>>5620668
Z is for Zigeuner, the equivalent of Gypsy in German.
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Memorial sculpture at Lety, one of the camps used almost exclusively for Romani prisoners. The site of the camp today is a pig farm, and the spot where another Romani concentration camp stood nearby is a hotel. Despite eyewitness testimony and documentary evidence, only 1 of the 3 men tried for crimes at Lety--which included the killing of almost 300 Romani children--was ever found guilty. But his 10-year sentence was later lifted and he was simply exiled from Czechoslovakia instead.
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>>5620706

Is it a racial slur or simply the German translation for Romani?

>>5620713
>The site of the camp today is a pig farm, and the spot where another Romani concentration camp stood nearby is a hotel.

Jesus Christ...

Was this supposed to be an insult or are the locals just that apathetic?
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>>5620747
>Was this supposed to be an insult or are the locals just that apathetic?

I think it's less a deliberate insult and more "who cares?" and not wanting to be reminded, especially since it's been suggested (and I would say proven, in at least the cases of some local guards who were acquitted because the survivors who testified to their torture and murder of prisoners had a criminal record before the war) that local police and officials cooperated with the camp's operations.

There have been a few books about Lety and nearby camps, and they stirred up controversy in the area due to content regarding the apathy and sometimes cooperation of the locals, both before and after liberation. In a lot of cases Romani survivors, especially in areas with a high percentage of deaths, would/will only speak if they can be anonymous for fear of reprisals. The Lety memorial has been occasionally vandalized.

At some point the European Union asked the Czech government to get rid of the pig farm. They agreed to buy out the farm and destroy it, but then backed off due to public protests--mostly by extreme nationalists--who suggested the only reason Romani wanted the pig farm removed was to get money from the government and that its presence had no impact on Romani people's lives.

>>5620747
Depends on who you ask. Some Romani consider it a slur, particularly since the root of the word supposedly comes from a Greek word meaning "untouchable" and it was generally used in a derogatory way by the Nazis. Others use it themselves.
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>>5620785
ah >>5620761
>>
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Testimony of people who worked or went to the Lety camp

Physician Jan Neuwirth

>Absolute malnutrition, filth, and an infestation of vermin, and therefore I immediately contacted Josef Janovský and demanded that he increase the amount of nutrition provided, as I personally am convinced the gypsies are receiving moldy potatoes to eat and cabbage that is just as moldy. [...] Janovský excused his behavior by claiming he did not have enough supplies for those interned, but I myself saw, in his office, crates of artificial fat and preserved bacon, and I also heard from other gendarmes [...] that Janovský was sending the groceries that were supposed to be given to the gypsies to the authorities in Prague.

František Malík, who worked at Lety:

>... in the barracks it was so cold that the ink in the inkwell was frozen by morning. The prisoners were supposed to be given coal for their barracks as per a directive issued by the district authority. ... Janovský, however, kept that coal and doled out ... - a very fractional amount of it to the prisoners. Sometimes he would not give them any. The prisoners were terribly cold and therefore walked into the nearby forest for firewood and kindling
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>>5620809
František Patočka, who was sent to investigate during a camp epidemic:

>The gypsy children, except for the newborns and the youth who were capable of work, were separated away from their parents into two big barracks, where, on bunks covered with moldy straw, most of them were left to their fate. Approximately three times a day a gypsy woman brought them a pot of some sort of food, which she distributed along the edge of the bunkbeds. The “meals” for the gypsy offspring were rather more like a very miserable feeding time in a zoo. Most of the children were wearing just a shirt that was falling apart, while some were absolutely naked. The only bedcover for the herd of children was a large piece of canvas sail which was not enough to cover them all. They pulled it back and forth among themselves, not just with their hands, but also with their teeth. In order to ascertain the actual state of the hygiene beneath the canvas, I removed it entirely. The very first thing that I became aware of, to my horror, were the little corpses of other children lying there. The second, maybe even more horrible thing was the look of the children who were in agony, some of them with fever. I can recall absolutely clearly, to this day, that the image I beheld exceeded even the most tremendous description of Hell in terms of the horrors I saw there.

But as physician František Kopecký noted, nothing was ever done in regards to health. No medicine or medical staff were provided, save for a single camp doctor, despite his orders for supplies. Any transportation orders he gave for people to be sent to hospitals for better care were cancelled.

For further reading: Black Silence: the Lety Survivors Speak is a compilation of survivor testimony translated into English. There is also a book by Markus Pape which goes further into the claims that the local Czech government and civilians knowingly assisted in the Romani genocide, but I don't think it's been translated.
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>>5620824
Found this interesting quote in regards to Pape's book, which should give a better idea of the contentious nature of Lety and its implications. The quote is by--astonishingly-- Jan Ruml, Czech Minister of the Interior, who spoke to a public crowd near the Lety site:

>According to the most trustworthy documents, the Nazis did not order an extermination camp in Lety: it was to be ‘only’ a transit station on the road to Auschwitz. Lety was changed to an extermination camp by the Czech guards with the support of the Czech Protectorate Ministry of the Interior — and it was an extermination camp in every way.
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does anyone know of any novels that deal with the Porajmos? Any age range. I'm just curious to see what's out there.
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Gypsy girls being humiliated by Germans and Romanians
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>>5621260
I wonder if they shot them after.
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>>5621264

Hopefully
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>>5620809
>Jan Neuwirth
>František Malík

>>5620824
>František Patočka
>František Kopecký

These names don't sound very German...
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>>5621383
No one said they were. >>5620826
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>>5621264
Probably
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>>5621413

Wait, so was the camp part of the Nazi concentration camp system or was it run parallel to it like how the Romanians killed thousands of Jews completely independently of Germany?
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>>5621561
It was set up by Nazis as a transit camp en route to Auschwitz's "family gypsy camp" (which was eventually liquidated) and the Nazis pur local Czechs in charge of the operations.
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>>5620982
>The Color of Smoke: A Novel by Menyhert Lakatos

A fictionalized novel based on the author's experiences as an adolescent Romani during WWII. One of the few novels about Romani genocide experiences written by a Romani author.

>The Extra by Kathryn Lasky

About a teenage gypsy and her family who are imprisoned in a round-up. The daughter is chosen by Leni Riefenstahl, along with dozens of other gypsies, to be an extra in a film she is making. Vaguely based on the experiences of Rosa Winter.

>Settela's Last Road by Janna Eliot

A fictionalized novel based on the real experiences of Settela Steinbach, a young gypsy girl captured in one of the most prominent photos of Roma during the Holocaust. She, along with her mother, two sisters, two brothers, aunt, 2 nieces and nephew were killed in the gas chambers in July 1944.

>Gypsy Tears: Loving a Holocaust Survivor by Cora Schwartz

A fictionalized novel based on the author's real-life experience as a wife to a Romani Holocaust survivor.

>The Eighth Sin by Stefan Kanfer

A novel about a Romani survivor who immigrates to New York City with the help Jewish survivors, who want to give him a fresh start on life.

>The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kozinski

About a young Romani boy who is abandoned by his parents and has to survive through the mercy (or lack thereof) of strangers in the places he wanders through.
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>>5622456

Of these, I've only read The Extra. I don't know that I'd recommend it because Lasky took major liberties with the timeline and I don't understand the point of writing about a historical topic if you're going to do something like that. Although the Romani extras in the actual film worked from fall 1940 until spring 1941, the characters talk about being sent to extermination camps (which didn't begin operations until December 1941--and Romani themselves were not sent to extermination camps until a year after that). I don't know why she didn't just stick with work camps, which were awful and usually resulted in death themselves.
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>>5620242
People don't care about the porajmos because Gypsies are much more hated than Jews. Even though mass murder was taking it too far no one feels any sympathy for them. Whereas people before and after the war have Jewish friends and neighbours that they get along with, Gypsies tend to be openly hostile to anyone outside of their community and almost all interactions people have with them are negative.
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>>5620504

How did he collect them? Did he buy them?
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>>5622807
He buys them at auctions mostly, from what I've read. A lot of them he's donated digitally to museums as well.
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>>5621260

What are the red arrows supposed to be pointing at?
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>>5621561
Both. The camp was planned out and opened by the Nazi government, but they staffed it with locals.

What the Minister of Interior means specifically is that the Nazis intended to have most of the prisoners survive Lety until they could be sent to Auschwitz to be killed or put to more labor, but (most of) the Czechs in charge of Lety were like nah let's starve and freeze these people, including hundreds of children, and not provide them any medical care. Like when the Nazis are sending in a literal microbiologist to figure out why everyone keeps dying at your transit camp to Auschwitz, you've fucked up.
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>>5621883
>>5624975

Were these ethnic Czechs or Czech citizens of German descent?
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>>5620242
Im glad they are dead
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>>5625993
Almost entirely ethnic Czech people. I want to say Frederich Sowa, who wasn't specifically in charge of Lety but acting chief of the Protectorate police was German or of German descent but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Ironically the only Czech who was actually sentenced to prison for involvement in the Romani camps was a Romani man, whose entire family was gassed at Auschwitz. He who was a guard at Hodonin and a Stubendienst (room orderly, in charge of making sure all the barracks were clean) at the gypsy family camp in Auschwitz.
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>>5625998

That's not very nice.
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>>5622456
>tfw novella-length fanfictions of Confederate soldiers saving pregnant Anne Frank are an almost daily occurrence while this girl is almost totally ignored

Can we get just one greentext about poor lil' Settela Steinbach being saved?
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>>5626117
No, because people who write that sort of autistic trash should burn in hell.
>>
Gyppos unironically deserve annihilation, but I don't mean in biological sense, I mean their culture should be eradicated and they should be integrated into native cultures.
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>>5620476
Well, I had totally forgotten that movie! Thanks!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t4esViss83M
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>>5626173
It's a good one. Depressing ending of course.
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>>5628156
>>5628165
You didn't "take" a job as a guard, or kapo, or stubendienst or cook or messenger etc etc. You were assigned the position, and if you rejected it, you nothing pleasant would happen. Assigning these jobs to prisoners was a way to 1) save SS personnel from being spread too thin and 2) demoralize the victims by turning them against each other, and in certain cases--as with kapos--making it part of the job description to be ruthless was a failsafe so the Nazis didn't have to worry about dissent. Fail at your job as a kapo? Demoted and at the mercy of the new kapo and all the prisoners you used to be "higher" than. Stubendienst were lower than kapo but if you failed to instill order and apparent cleanliness in the room, it was your ass on the line.

Also if you had any sort of position in the camp hierarchy, you were given access to actual food, warm clothing, and room with a bed away from the other prisoners which could range from a literal private room to at least a room with real bunk beds that had mattresses and blankets, not to mention little stoves for heat. Compared to starvation rations, going through bitter winters in summer clothing, and sleeping with a dozen plus people crammed in a long hay-strewn wooden bunk crawling with lice and fleas...
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>>5620473
Do it again bomber Harris
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>>5620453
Sounds like they could have undressed the dead bodies or cut the fabric off, but they decided not to because the humiliation/intimidation would be an added effect they wanted. Thinking about this is a glimpse into the mind of a savage.
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>>5630319
>Sounds like they could have undressed the dead bodies or cut the fabric off, but they decided not to because the humiliation/intimidation would be an added effect they wanted.

Undressing dead bodies was very difficult. It was.. Höss, I think? I'll have to check. Someone who detailed about the "trials and errors" of the early gas chambers, and one of the difficulties was getting clothes off corpses. The nudity in Auschwitz was also a way to ease people into the gas chambers with promises of showers or being deloused, which made rioting and difficulties less likely, though they still happened when/if people figured out the lie.

While Nazis did certainly humiliate people through nudity--think of prisoners made to stand naked for hours in some camp's roll calls, in addition to sexual assaults, rape, and the general dehumanization that occurs when you first people to be nude--in the case of gassing and mass killings, being naked was more so about efficiency, in my opinion.

At death camps, for instance, the clothes would all be piled up while the people were inside dying, then the sorters could start going through it right away. No need to wait for an hour or 90 minutes to go into the chamber, drag all the bodies out, with difficulty and time undress all the bodies, then sort the clothes and go through them.
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>>5625998

Rude
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>>5622456
>Settela's Last Road by Janna Eliot

Has anyone read this one? Got a tl;dr? Worth a read?
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>>5620242
>Since this board is constantly flooded with Holocaust threads more than the Mississippi River,
Is the Mississippi river known for holocaust threads?
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>>5632130

It would be among the less toxic things you find in that river.
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>>5620534

Don't tell me the Germans stole the poor lady's shoes too.
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>>5620505
These probably aren't gypsies. There's a discarded rifle and helmet down there
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>>5624332
it's some weird way of watermarking shit. You see it a lot on private collector photos
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>>5620504
>Here's a group, unbeknownst to them, waiting to be killed.

How can you tell?
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>>5622778
i live in belgium,in a village near the french/luxemburg border,and reacenlty 2 large gypsie families moved in - one from portugal,the other from serbia
>so, what happened was that 2 groups of gypsies started a clan war - like they always do
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>>5632824
http://www.robertdawsongallery.co.uk/gypsy-holocaust-3---horrors.html

According to:

>massacre. Notice old people being carried off on carts and the absence of men (because they were digging the graves). The back of the photo identifies it as Thüringen (Germany) but no massacre is recorded there. Of course, Gypsies were rarely recorded as they were mostly killed at the side of the road.

So basically, it's assumption of the guy who put it online based on pretty weak evidence. Given that historiography does not confirm mass shootings of Gypsies at that location (or anywhere in Germany proper to my knowledge, they were transported to Auschwitz), I don't think it depicts a massacre. Probably just a gypsy caravan in the forest.
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>>5630357
Yeah that's what I meant. Efficiency of the killing process was prioritized over anything else, with people being seen as simply objects to be processed.
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>>5620568
Too many.

t. Greek


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>>5630319

The stiffening the of the bodies would've made recovering clothing extremely difficult if not impossible in many cases
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>>5632934
>weak evidence

The trouble with the Romani genocide, as is the problem with most of the Einsatzgruppen and similar mass killings, is that most of it was just... not written down. There are only a handful of Romani genocide memoirs. In some places the populations were so wiped out that there weren't people left to tell the story. So you have to extrapolate information based on an educated guess.

It's definitely easy to see the photo either way. Group of gypsies sitting in clumps, general lack of men, other people in the distance leaving. Easy to think, based on the information we have about other Romani massacres, that it fits the bill: the men are off digging a grave, perhaps, while the others wait behind guarded by soldiers, etc. Yet you can also see it as Germans finding the caravan, ordering them to sit down, and taking photos because it was interesting--or because they were told to scope out gypsy populations in the area, or because the guy's mom is interested in gypsies and wanted to see some etc etc.

I think Dawson is assuming massacre because the Romani genocide is his focus, so there's some bias there. Although, just because there was no massacre recorded there doesn't mean that no one was killed there. The mass shootings were not as documented as the gassings. There were some liqudations of Jewish populations near this area, and what little we do know about the massacres of the Romani shows they were sometimes killed in prelude to the Jews, either because the killers were combing the area (especially forests and country roads) or to get the executioners in the mindset of viewing the victims as not human.
>>
Any noteworth accounts of Romani being hidden away/protected by sympathetic neighbors or they even more at the mercy of the mob than the Jews?
>>
This is perhaps a stupid question but are the Porajmos considered separate from the Holocaust or are they seen as concurrent with each other?
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>>5635685
I can't think of or find manyc ases. Most Romani were outsiders who kept to themselves, whereas at the least Jewish victims could be considered neighbors and friends. The cases where I've read about Romani being protected tend to be people who were living in villages, usually along with extended family who had lived there for at least 1-2 generations, rather than "traveling" Romani.


Elina Holomková, a Czech-Roma, along with her parents and her brothers were protected from deportation by the mayor of the village their family lived and worked in. Her parents were able to hide a 3 year old niece in their home until the end of the war, and Elina herself had to go into hiding at a relatives home in order to escape forced sterilization.

Zoni Weisz was saved by a Dutch policeman who pushed him onto a passenger train while he and his family were awaiting deportation to a transit camp--he later hid in plain sight with his aunt.
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>>5636776

I take it the punishment for harboring Romani was similar to that of hiding Jews (death).
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>>5620376

Shouldn't she be wearing the striped PJs that were standard among concentration camp inmates?
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>>5638324
No, the people sent to the Gypsy 'family camp' at Auschwitz were allowed to wear their civilian clothing.
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>>5620242
Tbh if you've ever been around gypsies you'd want them to die too. They just live in their little communes and come out trying to beg, rob and steal from people and if you don't give them money they call you a racist.
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>>5638866
>Gypsy 'family camp'

She got gassed didn't she?
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>>5638909
Probably, but there's no record of what happened to her. The documents related to the Gypsy camp are incomplete.

Most of the gypsies who survived the "family camp" were those who were 'lucky' enough to get deported from Auschwitz to concentration camps or to labor details outside of the camps, such as factories, farm labor, etc. Some survivors were also Wehrmacht veterans (a number of Romani served in the German military) who were released or sent to the regular camp after the decision was made to liquidate the family camp. Those that remained--about 3,000 mostly women, elderly men and children--were gassed. Then they combed the camp over the next few days and found children who had been hidden and gassed them too.
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>>5639005
>Some survivors were also Wehrmacht veterans (a number of Romani served in the German military)

Tell me more about this...
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>>5639005
>Then they combed the camp over the next few days and found children who had been hidden and gassed them too.
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>>5620242
What's forgotten about this, honestly? We got talked about it equally at school. It's just that gipsies didn't really seem to care much about it.
>>5638888
Sadly it's quite like this. Their moving parks are fun tho.
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>>5620242
should've finished the job desu
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>>5639075
A lot of Germani Roma were "assimilated" and didn't live a traveler lifestyle. Some of them had a Roma mother or father, others had been adopted by German parents, or were from mixed German-Roma families going back a few generations. Most if not all of them considered themselves to be German, even wanted to join the Hitler Youth (in 1942 all Romani or Romani 'hybrids' were discharged from the Hitler Youth) and of course joined the military.

In 1937 it was decreed that Sinti and Roma could not perform active military service. This was kind of ignored, so in 1941 the Wehrmacht High Command issued a direct order that gypsies or "gypsy hybrids" could not perform active military service and any currently on active military service were to be immediately discharged. Some were literally deported to Auschwitz from the front and arrived wearing their uniforms.
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>>5639307
An account from one such man.

>I joined the Reich Labour Service in 1939 and went from there to the German Wehrmacht in 1940, where I served in Infantry Regiment 190 in the 6th Army under General Paulus. By 1942, I had been decorated for bravery with the Assault Badge in Silver, the Iron Cross, the Medal of Honour for the Winter Campaign and the Wound Badge. I received a flesh wound and a lung wound and was therefore given convalescence leave in 1942.

>When I came home to Wroclaw on leave, neighbours told me that my mother and sisters had been taken away by the Gestapo. My twelve-year-old brother and the daughter of my elder sister of the same age were also no longer there. After returning from leave, I told the surgeon major what happened. The garrison commander, senior physician and officers sent a petition to Reich Marshal Göring.

>My company commander wrote to Heinrich Himmler and said he could not believe that I was a gypsy, and he got an appointment for me at the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin. I was received there by Kaltenbrunner. I told him that one brother had already been killed in action at the Russian front and that my other two brothers were also in the Wehrmacht, one in the anti-aircraft artillery since 1937 and the other as a tank driver; I also didn't know where my mother and siblings had been taken. In my youthful foolishness, I believed in honour, and that my bravery in the war would be recognized in Berlin. I start to cry when I think about it now, because in reality, I still reproach myself today, I had betrayed my two brothers in the Wehrmacht and was unable to do anything for my mother and siblings.

1/2
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>>5639312
>My eldest sister was murdered in Auschwitz. My mother, who was sent to Auschwitz via Ravensbrück with my second-oldest sister, also didn't survive the concentration camp. My little brother and the daughter of my second-oldest sister were forcibly sterilised at the age of 13 and 12 by doctors in Passau in 1943. One brother was sent to Auschwitz directly from the anti-aircraft artillery battery at Munich main station at the beginning of 1943 and was deployed in a suicide squad against Russian troops at Birkenau near Berlin in August 1944 after liquidation of the 'gypsy camp', which he didn't survive. The other brother was dismissed from the Wehrmacht as a tank driver directly following my meeting with Kaltenbrunner.

>When I arrived back at the military hospital from the Reich Security Main Office, where Kaltenbrunner had told me that his office had made a mistake and everything would be sorted out for the whole family, the senior physician told me that he told two Gestapo officers who had just come to pick me up that I was still too ill. I fled immediately after I had received my discharge papers and went into hiding in Poland and Czechoslovakia. My brother, who came home afterwards and heard about it, also went underground at the end of 1942 and survived. I was able to hide with a woman in Poland, who I married after 1945. Since my 'race' and the sections of the law, according to which we Sinti and Jews were excluded from 1942, were not expressly stated on my discharge papers, but the wound was mentioned, I was always able to escape from police and SS unrecognized as a 'gypsy'. And so it was even possible for me to work at the Skoda plant for a while, until we were liberated by the Russians on 8th May 1945.
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>>5639147
It's ignored in extreme compared to the Jewish holocaust. It wasn't until relatively recently that there was even a memorial to the Romani victims at Auschwitz, and it used to only be accessible by appointment twice a day. Frequently Roma speakers are forgotten or ignored at official remembrance events, at Auschwitz and otherwise. At a recent NYC based United Nations "remembrance week," Roma survivor groups asked to be able to participate and they were denied.

After the war, the German government decreed that the forced sterilizations, removal from military and other public office services, murders and oppression of Romani people prior to 1943 didn't count as racial hatred but instead tackling "criminal problems," so there was no compensation for the victims or families of victims; it wasn't until the late 1970s that the German government admitted okay maybe killing groups of Romani on the side of the road, forcing women to become sterilized, rounding them up in camps, etc, was racially motivated, our bad. Compare the number of books, movies, etc, about the Romani genocide to the Jewish Holocaust, and so on. When it is mentioned outside of niche specific material, it's often a throwaway mention. "Nazis also persecuted gypsies, the disabled," etc.

There's a pig farm on the site where almost 300 Romani children were abused to death via neglect and starvation, where women were raped by Czech guards, where people froze and starved and died from terrible diseases, to the point that even the Nazis were like "fuck bro what's going on" and sent people to try to find out what was going on. Protests to have the pig farm removed are consistently met with counter-protests from Czech nationalists who claim it was just a labor camp for criminals and that gypsies are trying to incite racial hatred between Czechs and Romani by not wanting a site where Czech politicians deliberately abused their people to death to be filled with pig shit.
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>>5620289
Based
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>>5639312

Sure is a sharp-looking fellow. Nothing like the stereotypical dirty or raggedly-looking Gypsy.
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>>5639307
One of Hitler's drivers, who was nonactive military, had a Roma mother. When it was discovered, he was discharged from the military and forcibly sterilized and of course, removed from his position as driver. Never was able to find out what happened to him, if he survived the war, etc.
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>>5639849

Hard to believe he managed to get that close to the Fuhrer without someone looking into his pedigree first.
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>>5641379
You'd be surprised. One of his bodyguards married a woman with Jewish ancestry, who had managed to hide her heritage. It was only discovered after her death in the 90s, when the wife' mother told her grandchild about it. Her husband refused to accept that she was Jewish, though.

I wonder if in the case of the driver, it also has to do with the fact that the "Roma question" was much more complicated and waffling than the "Jewish question." It took a while for them to decide what to do, especially with Roma who were integrated into society.
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>>5620505
>>5620532
>>5632725
Quote from the source.
>Massacre of Gypsies, photo taken by an Einsatzgrupen soldier. I have about a dozen from the same source, copies of copies, but this is the only one showing Gypsies. Looks to me like dead Russian soldiers in the distance, left, and in the foreground there is a Red Army helmet and a gun. Were the Russian soldiers trying to protect them or did the Gypsies just get caught up in a skirmish? But it is an Einsatzgrupen source. Others show massacres of Jews, civilians, soldiers, and hostages
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>>5639307
>Some were literally deported to Auschwitz from the front and arrived wearing their uniforms.
That makes me sad. Even if they are gypsies.
>>5639364
>>5639314
>>5639312
Good posts
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>>5620242

That woman truly has the face of an angel.
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>>5639364
What book would you recommend covering the topic? Is this from the Pape book above that's not translated?
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>>5620307

For me, it's the mother.
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>>5639307

Were there any wealthy or powerful Romani members of German society prior to the rise of the Nazis as was the case with Jews or were they already marginalized prior to that point?

Also was service in the Reichswehr and early Wehrmacht seen as a way for many Romani to escape poverty/marginalization gain a measure of respect like it was for Mischlings?
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>>5644745
Is the post you quoted from the Pape book? Nope, just a comment from me.

If you're only looking to read one, 'Gypsies Under the Swastika' is definitely a good "concise history" style overview. Black Silence talks specifically about Lety and the Czech compliance in the Romani genocide, as well.

>Gypsies Under the Swastika by Donald Kenrick and Grattan Puxon

A concise history of the Nazi persecution of Romani, including the Romani genocide. (Look for the 2009 edition which has updated information based on new material.)

>Black Silence: The Lety Survivors Speak by Paul Polansky

Interviews with people who survived the Lety camp. 'Controversial' for its exposure of the compliance of Czech police and officials in the camp.

>Winter Time: Memoirs of a German Sinto who Survived Auschwitz by Walter Winter

Winter was in the German navy; he was deported from the navy then deported with his siblings and pregnant wife.

>A Gypsy in Auschwitz by Otto Rosenberg

Rosenberg was a German Sinti who, along with most of his family, found himself moved from work camp to work camp before being deported to Auschwitz as a boy.
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>>5648063
>Also was service in the Reichswehr and early Wehrmacht seen as a way for many Romani to escape poverty/marginalization gain a measure of respect like it was for Mischlings?

Varied from person to person. Once the Nazi were in power, many if not most were conscripted as part of the mandatory 6 months of labor service and then had to serve a mandatory term in army or navy. Up until they were discharged via racial laws, they viewed themselves as being "German" just like their peers, so serving was something they considered a duty/expectation as any other German, albeit they had to deal with racism. Walter Winter recounted that although he did his Labor Service just as ardently as anyone else, he was the only one in his group not given promotions. Same with his time in the navy, although he was a lead gunner, he was not given the appropriate promotions to go along with it.

Some of White's uncles, though, voluntarily joined before conscription was mandated.

I don't know of any super prominent or wealthy Romani, but it's hard to find much information. Most of those who had more standard positions in German society tended to be middle class or working class. Walter Winter's brothers were both on the German national soccer team until they were removed after the Nazis implemented race-based laws for national sports teams. One of his brothers would become a millionaire after the war after patenting a fairground ride.

On that note, I definitely recommend this article about Walter Winter:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/29/secondworldwar.biography

>He believes the story still needs to be told because there are plenty of people who, to various degrees, deny it. A few years ago, Winter was on holiday in Gran Canaria when an elderly German couple asked what the number on his arm was. "You people are my age," he said. "You know what it is."
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>>5648421
>and pregnant wife

She got gassed didn't she?
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>>5650131
Yep. Shockingly, though, only one of his 8 siblings died.
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>>5650484
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>>5620377

Fuck...
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>No Holocaust denial in this thread
shocking
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>>5653828

It's almost as if no one gives a shit about the Porajmos so Stormfags feel no need to strenuously deny it to justify their ideology...
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>>5639307
>Some were literally deported to Auschwitz from the front and arrived wearing their uniforms.

Any accounts of how the guards reacted upon seeing men wearing their uniforms showing up as prisoners? An SS-Totenkopfverbände Private who washed out of Waffen-SS training because he was too fat, too stupid, or too lazy to make the cut and has never pointed a weapon at anything besides women and children suddenly having life-and-death authority over a combat-seasoned Wehrmacht Sergeant or Lieutenant sounds like the stuff of comedy.
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>>5620405

What camp was this?
>>
Just in case you guys didn't know...
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>>5620668
Replace “defiance” with “oppression” and “tyrants” with “black people”, and there might be some truth to it.
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Another Porajmos-related novel to add to the list. I've been seeing this in historical fiction results for a while, I didn't realize it was about the gypsy camp at Auschwitz until now.

Helene Hanneman was a German women who was imprisoned at the Auschwitz family camp with her 5 children due to her marriage to a Romani man. She was voluntarily imprisoned, as she choose to be deported with her husband and children. At Auschwitz she was recruited by Dr. Mengele to join the Romani camp hospital due to her profession as a nurse, and she was asked to set up a school for the Romani children to keep them occupied. After the family camp was liquidated, she was discovered hiding in the school with children, including her own. She was told that she would be set free if she would agree to leave her children behind--to certain death. She chose to die with them.
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>>5656341
There might be some in Walter Winter's memoir since he'd served in the navy, but I unfortunately don't have a copy on hand. If this thread is around in a week or so I might be able to get it from the library.
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>>5658076
Rivesaltes internment/transit camp, in France.
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>>5621260
>those tits on the far right
>tfw no perky, round breasted gypsy gf
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>>5636283
Concurrent, from everything I've read.
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>>5620242
>a civil 4chan thread
>about gypsies
>AND the holocaust
I actually, factually never ever thought that'd I live to see the day that this happened
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>>5658482
Forgot to mention, Helene Hannemann was a real woman, the novel is a fictionalized version of what happened to her.
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>>5658482
>She was told that she would be set free if she would agree to leave her children behind--to certain death.
>She chose to die with them.
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>>5658405

Yankees and Nazism go hand-in-hand boy.
>>
/tv/ here,

Any Porajmos kino? Posting best Holocaust kino btw.
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>>5660821
I can only think of two. And the Violins Stopped Playing and Korkoro. Korkoro is excellent.

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu8KPxRKe1E
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>>5639312
>>5639314
wow that's fucking crazy.
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>>5658933

Any info on her? All I get when I research her name is the scant details of how she chose to be sent to the gas chamber with her children.
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>>5620521
>posing with them before murdering them
evil vile people germans deserve to suffer for the next ten centuries
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>>5658521

It's already been up for 7 days, might as well keep it up for another 7.

If it's' not, you can just start a new thread about it.
>>
bump
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>The massacre in Szczurowa was the murder of 93 Romani people (also known as Gypsies), including children, women and the elderly, by German Nazi occupiers in the Polish village of Szczurowa on August 3, 1943. Between ten and twenty families of settled Romani had lived in Szczurowa for generations, alongside ethnic Poles with whom they had friendly and neighborly relations. They were integrated enough into the general community that there were several mixed marriages. On August 3, 1943 German police rounded up almost all the Romani inhabitants of the village and transported them to the local cemetery where they were shot. A list of all the victims has been preserved in the documents of the local church.
>On May 8, 1956, local inhabitants of the village and members of local veterans' associations erected a memorial stone with a suitable inscription at the site of the mass grave of the victims. This became the first memorial commemorating victims of the Romani Holocaust in the world.[1] The memorial is cared for by local schoolchildren and the memory of the tragedy is part of the local historical consciousness.
>Since 1960, Romanies from Tarnów have been coming to the region to honor the memory of the victims. Since 1996 the International Romani Caravan of Memory travels around the Tarnów region to commemorate the Nazi mass murder of Romanies during World War II. The main stop of the caravan is Szczurowa where after a visit to the mass grave, a mass is held at the local church.
>>
may hashem avenge their blood
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>>5661817
Unfortunately it seems that no photos of her have survived, nor did she--at least according to the historian who wrote the novel--have any surviving relatives.

Most information about her is pretty scant. There's offhand sentences in a few studies on Auschwitz from the 1970s through the 90s--Helene Hannemann, a German woman who was assigned to the gypsy camp Kindergarten; Helene Hannemann, a German woman who asked to be transferred to the gypsy camp with her children; Helene Hannemann, who received a promise from Dr. Mengele that her children would be saved but they were killed after hiding during the liquidation of the gypsy camp, etc.

I'll be picking up the novel from the library, maybe the author included resources that may provide more information about her.
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>>5665894

this
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>>5666273

Any records on her at all? As a German citizen surely she would still have birth, school, and tax records (unless the Nazis destroyed birth and tax records of people they deported to concentration camps to render them an unperson)?

What about her husband? Did he survive? Any record of what happened to him?
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>>5665894

Who?
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>>5650484

F
>>
Positive update on the Lety camp site:

The government, years ago, agreed to have the pig farm at the site of the Lety camp bought out, closed and demolished in place of a memorial. As it's been said, this was stalled/reversed multiple times due to nationalist groups protesting the acknowledgement that hundreds of men, women and mostly children were systematically abused to death at a Czech-run camp.

But it seems that common decency finally won out, and in December 2017 the cabinet ratified the decision to buy out, close, and demolish the farm in favor of some kind of memorial. It was meant to be shut down by Februrary 2018, but progress was stalled. The pig farm was officially transferred to the government in March 2018: http://www.romea.cz/en/news/czech/czech-state-is-now-the-official-owner-of-the-former-pig-farm-at-lety-on-the-romani-genocide-site

No word on plans for the memorial yet, though. Considering how controversial it was when a historian and Czech president acknowledged Czech complicity in the horrors of Lety, and previous examples of vandalism, I don't think a museum-style memorial that some are hoping for would go over well.

The current Czech president--elected in January 2018, after the previous cabinet's decision--is openly anti-Roma, for what that's worth.
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>>5672670

How 'bout declaring that the ground at Lety shall forever remain barren as a reminder to what was lost?

Seems like a pretty good copout to me.
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>>5641379
Hitler had a Polish driver and secretary too. I mean they were germanized Ruhrpolnisch, but they were 100% ethnically Polish.
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>>5674057
>Ruhrpolnisch

What's that?
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>>5620713

Is the broken wheel supposed to represent something special?
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>>5676552
A broken traditional Romani caravan/wagon wheel
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>>5676870

Were the Romani imprisoned in Lety formerly transient?
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>>5677800
Most of them, yes. Most of the gypsies at Lety were from the Bohemia area. Enough of them died that it killed the Bohemian Romani language, since so few that spoke it survived.
>>
Gypsies are not Romanian so fuck off
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Do we have gypsy mods or what? Since when /his/ love gypsies? Since my post was removed i should repost it, i guess.

>>5621260
Oh yeah, such humiliated facial expressions right here.

Have a grip mate. They are fucking gypsies, which means they probably are just prostitutes.
>>
OP disgusts me, acting like gypsies are some innocent victims. Maybe I should talk about gypsies genetics.
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>>5680333
Take care with what you post on askhistoy mate, they might also delete your posts ;)
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>>5675074
Different person but, it refers to people who were descended from families that immigrated to Ruhr in the 19th century. They were primarily workers--mostly miners--from Polish speaking areas. So they were German nationals from Polish families.
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>>5620242
>noteworthy victims
Gyppos havrn't produced anything or anyone "noteworthy" for nearly 700 years in Europe.
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>>5620242
>tfw no gypsy mommy gf
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>>5620242
Do you know why the Porajmos are forgotten? It is not because it is any less of a slaughter than the Holocaust. It is because Gypsies are the one race in Europe that repeatedly proves Hitler right on them being subhumans.
Gypsies are roving thieves and swindlers. That is it. That is their work, their culture, their lives. To poke palms and pick pockets. And since they are nomads, they will never contribute in any meaningful way to a community. Like the gull that flies over the beach shitting where it pleases, so does the gypsy go around the lands to plunder.
Not a single person likes gypsies. Some will tell you that they do, and that they are human too, but ask them to spend the night at a gypsy camp and they will squeal like if you have stuck them with a needle. Only the Western elite in their ivory towers shills for gypsies. Everyone who comes in contact with them regularly hates them, and not without reason.
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>>5681951
>iktf
>>
If there ever was a people that deserved genocide it's the gypsies. Hitler should've left the Jews alone and concentrated on the real menace.
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>>5682912

rude
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>>5620242
>>5646074
>>5681951

Any idea who this family is and what happened to them?

I’m gonna guess since the filename says 1942 whatever fate befell them wasn’t good.
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>>5684392
Höllenreiner family. Surprisignly:

>Höllenreiner's parents chose the middle name of their son in order to protect him from the growing threat of the Nazis. Still he was deported to the concentration camp Auschwitz on 16 March 1943, where Josef Mengele tortured him and his brother with cruel medicinical experiments. After being taken to the other concentration camps Ravensbrück and Mauthausen, he finally ended up in Bergen-Belsen. Him, his five siblings, and both parents survived the Porajmos.
>>
>>5681951

Sad :(





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