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What's your guess on how they got around the NFA?
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Hundreds of sacrificed dogs
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>>36461563
fucking how?
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>>36461563
It makes me feel paranoid just because them giving up any form of tax stamp income is so out of character for them.
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>>36461563
Smoothbore barrel with a rifled muzzle device
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>>36461563
without handling one in person, i'd guess they found a way for more of the barrel to exist inside the receiver. otherwise, maybe one of their employees is just pro at giving atf agents blowjobs
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>>36461604
im guessing the smoothbore part as well, but the rifled md is interesting.
reminds me of the civilian russian guns
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Plot twist: It's a black powder muzzleloader
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Does it come in .300 BLK?
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>>36461629
That doesn't sound very "patent pending".
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>>36461604
Wouldn't a smoothbore be considered a shotgun?
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>>36461604
so, its a paradox gun?
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>>36461624
It's the only way it could be anything more than a near useless novelty. I'm mostly curious as to the longevity of the parts, as I feel the "throat" of the rifled muzzle device would wear fairly quickly
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>>36461624
this is what im talking about btw
>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/14/new-russian-9-6x53mm-lancaster-cartridge-366-tkm-news/
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>>36461649
US code defines a shotgun as both smoothbore AND firing "shotgun shells". While I don't know if they've put forth a strict legal definition of a shotgun shell, a common law definition would exclude obvious rifle rounds from the list.
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>>36461650
Yes, exactly
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>>36461604
>>36461624
>>36461649
>>36461650
>>36461657
Smoothbore firing discarding sabot fin-stabilized ammunition. If you fire normal 5.56 or what have you it will still work but be inaccurate.
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>>36461649
maybe with an OAL over 26" its just considered a firearm. just like the mossy shockwave. hence the 11.5" barrel because the OAL of a standard 10.5 is just under 26 inch.
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>>36461563
they rifled the fucking buffer tube and claim it's part of the barrel
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Binary trigger fuckery. I dont think this is a new caliber, or a crazy barrel.

I think they found some thin slice of gray between "pull" of the trigger and "function" of the trigger on a MG.
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>>36461702
that would be perfect and also retarded
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>>36461701
Not in this case. The shockwave worked because it wasn't designed to be shouldered. Being smoothbore precluded it from being a pistol or rifle, and being over 26" OAL kept it from being an AOW.
I expect this to be largely the same, but skirting the shotgun definition by not using shotgun shells, allowing it to retain a stock and be shouldered.
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>>36461701
Shockwave only works because it came from the factory designed to not be shouldered. This has a stock
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>>36461710
A newly engineered trigger potentially just barely skirting whatever definition you're thinking of is far more complicated than just not cutting rifling in the barrel
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>>36461604
Franklin armory has already confirmed this isn't the case
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The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
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>>36461776
They have done no such thing.
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>>36461793
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
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maybe the trigger only fires on release or something since that would make physically pulling the trigger not fire the 'firearm'
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>>36461702
Oh balls I hope you're right. I'd fucking shit.
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>>36461793
>>36461819
>Rifle
>pull of the trigger
>Machine Gun
>function of the trigger

Do you think it somehow avoids being classified as a rifle because it fires more than one round per pull of trigger, but avoids being a machine gun because it fires only one round per function of trigger?
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>>36461702
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>>36461776
Proof please
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>>36461702
please god, be this
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>>36461702
>ATF man sticks dowel down barrel until it hits bolt face
>11.5"
>shoots your dog
Think for a second before suggesting complete nonsense
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>>36461903
it's a reverse open bolt and doesn't fire until the bolt has fully recoiled.
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>>36461916
Okay I take it back, I'm 100% on board now
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>>36461916
>doesn't fire until the bolt has fully recoiled.
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>Factory installed binary trigger makes something not a rifle

holy fuck i love it
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>>36461793
I fucking got it.

Their trigger is a PUSH type. That's how its not a rifle!
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>>36462082
see
>>36461827
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>>36461916
>blow-forward AR

okay then
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The rifling isn't really rifling. Its dots and dashes. Its just Morse code but is a spiral repeating fuck the NFA
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>>36461586
>>36461563
What if they're claiming it's designed for proprietary black powder cartridges, and you need to dremel off some little tab to let it feed regular 5.56
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>>36461576
>"Redefining Firearms"
This gun is actually a crossbow inside firing .22 cal arrows.
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>>36462148
>crossbow
>arrows
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Many dogs died to bring us this ruling.
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>>36461563
im thinking they got an actual definition of what a "stock" is. trying to invent their own armbrace or stock shaped object to stick on "firearms". the atf sent them a concrete definition. they realize the magpul sl doesn't meet what the atf just said therefore its not a stock. then the atfs like fuck.
something like the afg not being a vertical grip.
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>>36462192
I don't see how that would work. The SL doesn't do anything special and Magpul even calls it a stock.
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>>36462229
This dude can't even find the shift key or apostrophe. Don't take his post seriously.
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>>36461563
Something is fucky, maybe they only allowed it just so they can turn on it later and/or pseudo ban all these "firearm" classified guns.
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>>36462135
This unironically is a very good idea, wonder if it'd get passed them.
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>>36462229
its short. determination could have been how much surface area has to touch your shoulder to be considered a "stock".
for example they talking about this. the question is, what if it was one inch lower would it be a stock? at what length does this become a stock? atf pulls number out of its ass.
that number is bigger than the dimensions of the sl.
>>
When are we getting actual news on this?

>>36462289
This would be pretty sweet.
>>
My guess.
The image shows a 3position fire selector highlighted in red, but what about if the trigger doesn't fire when pulled, but it fires on the release?
Semi - squeeze like taking up the initial slack on a 2stage - then instead of pulling further, let it slip.
Auto - squeeze - then releaee and it keeps cycling until you squeeze again.
>not fired on a single trigger PULL = no ded doggo
Liability issues as fingers slip off unexpectedly, but really no different to accidentally pulling back too far too early.
>your "nonrifle lower" can take any upper even a Shrike beltfeed
>>
who gives a fuck?
11 inch ARs are a waste of ammo.
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>>36462289
They already have a determination. Is it intended to touch the shoulder? If yes, it's a stock.
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>>36462349
Not with .300blk.
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>>36462330
I really hope there's a runaway safety feature in the setup you described, such as having the selector sprung to return to semi and having to hold it forward with your thumb- so if you drop it the selector switches back to semi instead of magdumping autonomously. Also seitching to safe with the trigger pulled had better prevent firing.
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>>36462277
Would it really work though? Would it stabilize the boolet?
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>>36462516
If it did stabilize the projectile then it would just be considered an exotic form of rifling but rifling nonetheless.

Maybe... maybe they figured out how to utilize the force of the gas right as it exits the chamber to spin the entire barrel around. Even though the barrel is smoothbore there would be enough friction to get the bullet turning as well. Which means its spin without rifling, therefore its not a rifle.
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>>36462607
>spin the barrel

This is dumber than the riffled buffer tube
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Even if it's out of the common price range, I just hope it isn't totally stupid.
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>>36461586
Think I heard it was something to do with the trigger and how the atf defines a rifle...
I could be entirely wrong though
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>>36463263
>>36461586
I'm wrong, dont listen to me
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>>36461606
If it wasn't for OP's job at sucking so much dick we would have never gotten this aproved by the ATF, god bless him.
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>>36461563
Sacrificed 66 doggos
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>>36462349
Wrong
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>>36463473
Only when compared to a subgun.
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>>36462161
Your humor wasn't lost. I giggled.
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>>36462349
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>>36462145
But the BP exemption doesn't apply to cartridges.
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It's going to be some bullshit that fags up the gun and makes it totally pointless
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>>36462349
11.5 is tied with 12.5 for BLOAT
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>>36461975
Fire selector still seems to have a semi-auto mode though, which would make it a rifle.

If the thing fires semi when the trigger is released rather than pulled to get around the
>a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single PULL of the trigger.
But distinguishing between the pull and release then makes adding the binary mode turn it in to a rifle again, since one round is fired on trigger pull, and another on release. Albeit, distinguishing between those functions is what makes it "not a machine gun"
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>>36461697

I would be extremely surprised if they have the engineering resources to design something like that
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>>36461563
the trigger is the bolt release and the bolt release is the trigger so you technically push the trigger not pull it
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>>36463807
Discarding sabot darts are not exactly new or difficult technology. Would still be a lot of resources for a meme gun of course.
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>>36461793

So it fires TWO projectiles!
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>"You can shoulder pistol braces because we don't know what we're doing" t. atf
>Making this

Why? It makes more sense to just make better pistol braces that incidentally make great stocks as well.
>>
Barrel inside barrel. Inner barrel is smoothbore with outside lugs which lick into outer barrels inter grooves. Inner barrel rotates in a controlled fashion
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They're simply using barrels made before 1898 because they're not firearms
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>>36461606
Barrel is measured to bolt face.
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>>36463952
>Why? It makes more sense to just make better pistol braces that incidentally make great stocks as well.
this.

>>36464062
>They're simply using barrels made before 1898 because they're not firearms
not how it works
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>>36464062
You're fucking retarded.
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>>36461750
Unless it fires by trigger release instead of a trigger pull.
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>>36461710
THIS IS NOT ABOUT MGS YOU FUCKING IDIOT, IT"S ABOUT IT BEING SHORT
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>>36464403
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrZgxSjsvw
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>>36464445
Alright, you made laugh I'll chill
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>>36464460
Good, have a trench slayer 3000 in return.
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>>36464482
oooooooooh that's nice
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It's not an SBR because it's not short enough. They are looking at it as an out barrel is not 16 but it's longer than 26 or whatever
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>>36464513
having EITHER a sub-length barrel, or being too shrot, both count as SBR though
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>>36464027

What if the buffer tube rotates the barrel?
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>>36464555
Do you even know how an AR-15 works?
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>>36464513
Being longer than 26" would just make it not fall into the aow category, the 11.5" barrel still makes it an sbr
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>>36464555
>>36464582
>>36464027
Guys, the barrel won't spin, please don't be silly. Real life isn't fucking Borderlands.
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>>36461604
Which would be a rifle.

Can you retards stop speculating? You don't know shit.
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>>36464062
>they invented a time machine so they could build a gunfactory in 1898
>they just keep em olding like a wine cellar
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>>36461697
[citation needed]
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>>36464592
It can't be an AOW with a rifled barrel.
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>>36461563
This. And a Binary trigger.
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>>36464614
Wrong
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>>36464620
best guess so far, thanks /k/omrade
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>>36464599
Fuck off, you don't know shit
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>>36464654
Right.
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>>36464599
I don't believe you.
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Barrel permanently affixed to the upper, making it over 16"
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>>36464711
That's not how barrel length is measured.
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>>36464620
Thanks. I wonder how accurate it is?

>>36464654
No U
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>>36464702
I don't care
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Telescoping bolt.
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found it, boys:
Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.
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>>36463820

It's not neccossarly the design of the ammunition/firearm system that's the hard part, it's designing/purchasing the manufacturing capital and developing the manufacturing processes that would be a money pit. You can't into commercial-scale ammo manufacture couple mills and a shop press.
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>>36464790
Well you should, because you're full of shit, retard.
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>>36464832
A muzzle loader built on an AR lower would be a firearm, actually.
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>>36464832

>matchlock AR

Mite b kool
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>>36464832
Wouldn't be able to use 5.56 cartridges.
>>
they simply started a museum and wrote a letter to the atf stating the ar15 platform is of a collectors interest.

An NFA firearm removed from the NFA as a collector’s item is no longer subject to any of the
provisions of the NFA. In most cases, the weapon will still be a firearm as defined in the GCA and
subject to regulation under the GCA.
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>>36464851
No, I'm not you fucking moron. Go learn some shit, backwoods bitch.
>>
A muzzle device is not part of a barrel unless permanently attached.
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>>36464950
Your claim has no base, sorry, retard.
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it is simply a binary only trigger. they were in it for the long play when they got the original binary defined. pull vs function is key.
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>>36465017
This.

Binary only is not a machine gun

If it’s not semi it’s not a rifle,
Therefor it’s a firearm = not NFA controlled
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>>36463604
I'm told that is for 6.8. myself I want to get into 300 blk because 8.5 sounds even nicer. Shorter = better for me.

Grail gun is a mdr-c with a shortie otb ratworx style suppressor. Caliber hardly matters at that point because so short.
>>
I’m gonna go out on a crazy limb here so you might wanna screencap

- two piece barrel
The first piece is the chamber/throat it is fluted and the flutes are arranged not unlike rifling - this may likely be integral to the receiver

Then it is attached to a separate smooth bore barrel that fits the legal def of a barrel.
Finally a rifled muzzle device

Or it’s just a fluted smoothbore with a Rifled muzzle device, the fluting imparts some spin the MD handles the rest.

So you’d get a 11.5 barrel carbine with an effective rifling length of like 3 inches that would shoot brass into the stratosphere
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>>36465085
You only need a very short length of rifling to stabilize a bullet. A rifled "choke" or MD would be more than enough without weird fluting-not-rifling.
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>>36464596

What if the rifling is straight and the barrel rotates, thus imparting spin?
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>>36465017
>>36465044
That selector has 3 positions
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Or instead of guessing we can just fucking email them like it says to on their advert
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>>36465131
No? Why would we do something sensible?
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>>36465106
Fluting would greatly help with fouling and extraction - problems your going to have in a smoothbore, and it’s elementary to design fluted that provide some initial stabilization without being considered “rifling”
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>>36465131
they're not answering email or phone
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>>36462607
Space magic
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you guys r dum. its so obvious to me- smoothbore barrel and RIFLING ON THE BULLETS
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>>36465009
>a rifled bore doesn't make a weapon with a stock a rifle
What?
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>>36465118
Perhaps it's safe, binary, release? That would still work
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>>36465118
maybe one position is a dummy position
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>>36465252
Muzzle device isn't part of the barrel unless permanently affixed.
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>>36465206
>proprietary rifled or saboted ammo

Then people wouldn’t buy it because it’s fucking retarded gimmick ammo and normal 5.56 is cheap as fuck.

It’s either fluted chamber smoothbore + rifled muzzle device

OR

Binary push NOT pull (not sure about this)

OR
They figured out an entirely new way to manufacture a barrel that stabilizes projectiles without complying with the legal definition of rifling - not conventional or polygonally rifled.
Maybe it’s something like an interrupted screw like you would see on the breech of Artillery, only more intermittent.
Maybe it’s somehing like a squeezebore
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>>36465300
Pics on other sites show it in higher res - it’s SAFE, SEMI, BINARY
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>>36465329
I think that >>36464620 got it with a twisted oval-shaped barrel that still spins the bullet but isn't technically "rifled"
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The stock extends to OAL 60" so it's a firearm but can't be shouldered because it's just too fucking big
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>>36465310
If it's not permanently affixed how do you think it is going to work with any degree of safety or reliability, you fucking moron?
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>>36465392
Do you not know what is a pinned and welded muzzle device? or you are just pretending to be retarded
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>>36465392
It isn't my concern whether a silly novelty is safe or reliable
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>>36465444
If it's pinned and welded then it's part of the barrel, you stupid fuck. What is your argument, you braindead piece of shit?
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>>36465444
Don't butt into an argument if you're going to ignore everything that's been said prior
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>>36465482
You dont know how to read what I'm replying to? You should check those anger managment issues
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>>36465481
Well whatever helps you pretend your stupid idea is plausible.
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>>36461604
Shotguns must have an 18" barrel , rifles only 16" its not a shotgun.
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Regardless of how they do it will you get one? SBR performance with no stamp of brace makes my mouth water.
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>>36465577
It is literally the only legally plausible option. Cap the post so I can say I told you so when they reveal it at shot
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>>36465608
>It is literally the only legally plausible option
It's not a legally plausible option because then you've made an SBR unless you want your muzzle device to come off with every shot.
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>>36461650
>hit anything
>it ceases to exist
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>>36465613
I don't give a fat fuck about how well the stupid thing works. A smoothbore barrel is the only way they could make this particular firearm and not have it classed as an SBR.
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>>36465444
Part of barrel

>>36465392
Left handed thread
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>>36461702
https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download
>The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device.

A permanently attached telescoping barrel shroud (e.g. fake silencer) would do the trick, since its permanently attached and the furthest end is when its extended. If this sounds silky, keep in mind that this is the same "trick" that makes them pull folding or collapsing stocks to full extension when they take their measurement for the 26" overall length requirement, even though most people use them shorter.
>>
I think I've got it.
its a pseudo open bolt design where the bolt carrier is held to the rear inside the buffer tube at rest. the pull of the trigger releases the bolt forward to strip a round and load the chamber then releasing the trigger actually releases the hammer and fires. this type of trigger would not classify it as a rifle or machine gun and with an overall length greater than 26" its just a firearm.
>>
>>36464620
>>36464654
That can’t be the whole picture - Lancaster oval rifling was designed in the 1850’s for non spitzer projos, and that Russian .966 Lancaster is round nosed.
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>>36465709
do not want. this is a subjective line, but for me this would be past the point of
>just get a pistol with brace
or
>just pay for a tax stamp
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>>36464620
Thats just polygonal rifling with 2 grooves. Its still rifling.
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All I can think is the barrel extension is longer and acts as a sleeve inside the whole length of the upper so the "barrel length" is also the overall length of the upper.
Pic related
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>>36462349
>I have no idea what I'm talking about
>I have no idea that there are 5.56 rounds that aren't reliant on velocity to do what 5.56 is supposed to do
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>>36465653
>I don't give a fat fuck about how well the stupid thing works.
And I don't give a fat fuck what you think they did. The only way they could do that is with a permanently attached muzzle device and at that point it's now a rifle.

Go eat a bullet, bitch.
>>36465749
Wouldn't work because it's measured from the breechface.
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>>36465613
What is reverse threading - the threading can be in the opposite direction of the rifling effectively torquing it every shot
>>
What counts as rifling?
Could they do something like a polygonal rifling and still have it be smooth bore?
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>>36465832
No.
>>
Why the FUCK has no one stated what the fuck the thing is chambered in? What the fuck does this shit even shoot?!
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>>36465853
because that changes nothing
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>>36461563

1 "trigger pull" = 2 rounds fired = not a rifle = don't have to abide SBR laws

boom shaka laka
>>
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>>36464832
Somebody should design a system with a primerless cartridge. Mag holds cartridges and CCI APS primer strips and feeds cartridge into chamber and primer into deeper chamfered primer pocket on cartridge.
Presto instant antique, machine gun version is perfectly legal like the repro crowfoot pistols that fired 3 shots when you pull the trigger, or double barrel muzzleloader shotguns that trip both sears when the rear trigger is pulled.
For non reloaders, the CCI primer strips are toothed plastic strips holding 20 primers, fed by a double pawl system like on a machine gun. Pic related is one of their reloading presses with a strip going into the priming system.
>>
>>36465832
Polygonal rifling counts as rifling
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>>36465106
A long smoothbore section would be shit for accuracy. Almost all rifle barrels have a smoothbore section btw, its cslled "leade". Military and magnum barrels have longer leade, target barrels have as close to none as they can manage.
>>
>>36465877
fuck all it changes nothing, it determines if the shit is even worth considering buying. it's worthless if it's just some retarded shotgun or muzzle loader.
>>
>>36465853
5.56 or .300.
As to more of the unconventional “rifling” ideas like Lancaster oval, .300 has loadings that aren’t spitzer and would be suited
>>
>>36465904

Maynard Tape Primer?
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>>36465902
You're wrong. Read the thread.
>>
>>36465938
Yeah, basically. But the CCI system is reliable as fuck (even more so if you dont use flimsy bits of plastic in the feed pawls).
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>>36465902
but then it can't have a semi auto function. it would be binary and safe. the image is a 3 position safety. not saying this isn't possibly the case but I just find it not super believable that they would release a firearm that could not legally fire in semi auto without being classified as an sbr.
>>
>>36465966
He's not wrong, technically. By that basic definition, it's not a rifle, it's a machine gun and thusly does not require an additional tax stamp for an SBR

but it's not a machine gun
>>
>>36465902
>go to range with slow fire rules
>have to follow through for a minute or I get banned
I'm down.
>>
>>36465932
Leade is just another name for Throat - it’s the distance of barrel the bullet has to travel to clear the case and it leads to the start of the rifling.

It’s not always smoothbore - see fluted chambers
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>>36461975
Don't their other rifles/SBRs/pistols come with it preinstalled as well?
>>
open bolt design. pull the trigger = release the bcg, release the trigger = fire. 3 position selector = semi-open bolt, safe, and binary open bolt. oal over 26" = classification as a simple firearm.
>>
>>36466168
a binary trigger doesn't make it not a rifle because the binary trigger has a standard semi auto position as well as the binary position. for a binary trigger to not make something a rifle it would also have to not have a semi auto function at all which I don't think would fly.
>>
>>36466262
>3 position selector = semi-open bolt, safe, and binary open bolt
i dont get what the difference would be between the first and third position if the trigger releases the bolt and then fires on release of the trigger?
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>>36466262
Open bolt semis are MGs now so that would be NFA.
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>>36466286
>charging the weapon always holds the bolt to the rear
>in semi-open pull the trigger releases the bolt forward, stripping a round, and chambering it.
>releasing the trigger fires it
>in binary-open it behaves like an open bolt firearm
>pull the trigger releases, strips, chambers, and fires, then relocks to the rear
>releasing the trigger then does all of that again.
>>
>>36464832
thin burnthrough membrane instead of primer in ammo, and sprngloaded rotating flint wheel lock as constant source of sparks.

Primerless machinegun.
>>
>>36466313
but its not a true open bolt design. this is using binary fuckery to bypass this where they skirt the definition of trigger pull/trigger function. I don't think it would be effected by mg nfa laws if all the trigger did was drop the bolt and chamber a round. the fire on release makes it just like a binary and thus not an mg
>>
I got it!

A smooth bore that spins the bullet first and THEN launches it down the barrel.
>>
>>36466325
Well your Binary-open is just an open bolt semi, which is an machine gun according to the dog shooters. But even if they slipped that by how would we get past the barrel length issue? They measure on a closed bolt.
>>
>>36466099
Yes, I am a bit of an HK fan and have have several rifles and pistols with fluted leades. But most rifles have a smooth leade - or throat - the name doesnt fucking matter what matters is that they already have it yet are still rifles, changing the length of that section doesnt matter legally, but will make the rifle less accurate.
>>
>>36466348
ok
>>
>>36466352
I see your point. what if the binary-open functioned like the semi-open for the first pull. i.e. bcg locked to the rear, pull trigger, bolt goes forward, release trigger, fire, THEN the bolt rear bolt catch is disabled and the weapon is turned into a true closed bolt binary.

then barrel length wouldn't matter as long as the OAL is greater than 26". why? because from a charged position the trigger never fires a round when pulled in either semi-open or binary-open thus making it neither a rifle or mg and just a firearm.
>>
>>36466027

Nope not a machinegun since it fires 1 round per function of the trigger. Releasing the trigger is a separate function. Rifle and MG are defined differently regarding the trigger.
>>
>>36466326
No you need a primer to get the pressure up so the smokeless powder willl do its thing, if you just ignite smokeless it just burns it doesnt go bang like old fashioned BP will. Also you need the primer to provide a gas seal.
>>
>>36466002
>I just find it not super believable that they would release a firearm that could not legally fire in semi auto without being classified as an sbr.

I do. People will already have to pay lolbux for this thing since it has their super duper 4 bill trigger in it; theres no financial good idea to buy this gun but since it'll be a huge fuck you to the batfuckas then people will pay stupid dollars for it, even if it only fired binary mode
>>
>>36466407
The weapon isnt charged until the cartridge is chambered. The barrel length will be measured with the bolt in its closed and locked position.
>>
>>36466313
>Open bolt semis are MGs now
No, open bolt MACs, Stens, and TECs are MGs according to the ATF. Everything else is just people being scared.
>>
>>36466027
>Its a machine gun, but not a machine gun
I'm just saying he is wrong about that being the justification for the non NFA status.
>>
>>36466455
okay well I mean when you pull the charging handle to the rear and lock the bolt back on empty.

regardless, I understand the barrel is measured from the closed position, thats not what I'm arguing. what I am saying is that this is exploiting binary fuckery. if the action of pulling the trigger doesn't fire a round then its not a rifle or an mg, if it has a stock its not a pistol, if its rifled its not a shotgun, if its OAL > 26" its not an AOW, thus simply a firearm like the moss berg shockwave.
>>
>>36466484
We are in a new age of doing anything to fuck the ATF, someone should make a new open bolt semi then.
>>
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>>36466348
>Franklin Armory: Beyblade 15
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>>36466518
I've been thinking about designing a trigger group for Uzis and other SMGs that may allow you to use the, mostly, original bolt and still run less risk of the ATF calling it an MG.
>>
>>36464866
>a string of percussion caps are set off by the trigger mechanism which in turn actuate the firing pin to strike a conventional cartridge

I call it the Goldberg(tm) 300
>>
>>36464596

The barrel on my AR-15 spins
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>>36466508
If thats the case then you dont need binary fuckery. The HK squeeze cockers could be fired using the trigger as a safety and squeeze the cocking lever to fire (usual procedure was to cock then pull the trigger but it worked in either order). Put the lever on the back of the grip so its pushed instead of pulled, and make it only work in that order and you're golden. Or the old "rifleman" mod on lever actions where the trigger was pinned back and working the lever would fire it.
>>
>>36464620
Sippy cup barrel?
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>>36466581
Doesnt work, the primed cartridge are considered "fixed". You have to use externally primed cartridges.
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>>36464687
Counterpoint: A pistol with a VFG is an AOW
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>>36466719
It's not.
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>>36466734
ATF says otherwise.
>>
>>36465904
I thought repros of antique would-be-NFA items were NFA items themselves unless they were in a caliber not in common trade (read: you have to handload everything)
>>
>>36466747
Doesn't matter, US code says otherwise and so does case law.
>>
>>36462157
He did say "redefining".
>>
>>36466774
Go try it and tell the ATF, see if you dont get your dog shot.
>>
SOLVED

When you fire the gun, the bullet stays still but the rest of spacetime moves around it. Since it does not actually expell a bullet its a complete non firearm.

AAAAKKKKKSSHHUILLLYYY according to SCIENCE its not a gun.
Checkmate godfags
>>
>>36466774
ATF opinion letters have the weight of law because reasons, but only if and when it benefits the ATF. Otherwise they're just opinions.
>>
>>36466815
>I didn't shoot him officer, he ran into my bullet
>>
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So what if it uses a proprietary cartridge that has a bit of led behind the bullet that would technically make it fire more than one projectile for every pull (making it not a rifle,) but only fires one shot (making it not an MG)?
>>
>>36466906
duplex bullets are already a thing
>>
>>36466759
>antique would-be-NFA items
NFA only applies to weapons using fixed ammunition. You can have a paper cartridge sharps (the ones with the knife edge on the breechblock to cut off the back of the paper tube) with an 11" barrel if you want, because those paper cartridges require an external percussion cap. Never seen one with that short of a barrel, but you could. I *have* seen non nfa muzzleloading shotguns with otherwise-illegally short barrels. I guess they get used in 3-gun cowboy shoots.
>>
>>36466888
They don't, they're contradicting the law and courts have ruled against them.
>>
>>36466906
Buckshot is already a thing. Buckshot and birdshot through rifled barrels is already a thing. Duplex cartridges are already a thing.
>>
They gave it to a bunch of athletes and proved that it is much more effective as a baseball bat and thus should be classified as such.
>>
>>36466952
any sources? I'd like to read about this.
>>
>tfw if it’s somehow a function of the binary trigger no binary triggers in WA
>>
>>36467034
underrated
>>
>>36461587
>It makes me feel paranoid just because them giving up any form of tax stamp income is so out of character for them.
Not even. That internal memo from the ATF that was leaked a year ago indicates that they would rather not spend the time and money to have their employees handle tax stamps. In this memo, they basically addressed that having to register suppressors was an undue complication on both the agency and the citizens.
>>
>>36461827
>>36461827
Maybe it only fires on the release of the trigger, rather than the pull? Not sure that would really make a difference, though.
>>
>>36464620
Lancaster rifling would be exotic rifling but rifling nonetheless. It's very similar to polygonal rifling in a lot of ways with no sharp corners, just the geometry of an ellipse twisted down the barrel instead of a polygon with radius'.
>>
>>36465653
It's been brought up that even if it is smoothbore, the fact it is meant to be shouldered negates that. The reason the mossberg shockwave is considered a "firearm" is because it's never had a stock attached. Additionally I've heard that they've already confirmed it's not smoothbore.
>>
>>36461563
how is it even possible?
saw it on soldier systems daily earlier today
>>
>>36465709
No way in hell BATFE would approve open bolt.
>>
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Its built with pre-1899 AR lowers so it's not a firearm.

Bam.
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>>36461629
i'd lose my shit
>>
>>36466815
This. Like warp drive in Star Trek.
>>
>>36467645
its not firing from an open bolt though. the function of the trigger pull is to release the bolt, not fire the weapon. pulling the trigger will never fire the weapon in this case.
>>
>>36462161
>that moment when he has the drink, light behind, camaera centered

feels good man, feels like we can go back.
>>
It's just a giant laser pointer. They hired niggers all over the country. You point that thing at anything and somebody jumps out the nearest bush and starts stabbing your target.
>>
What if they chambered it in a new shotgun round, .22 BORE SPIDERSHOT, that just so happens to have similar chamber to .223?
Then it would be like a tore ass judge, neither shotgun nor pistol.
>>
>>36467990
Also wide availability of such round would make all .223 short barrel rifles suddenly AOW.
>>
Yall niggas keep forgetting that shotguns do NOT have to have a smooth barrel. They merely need to fire shot.
>>
>giving the spooks another fucking reason to address 'stabilizers' and eventually banning EVERYTHING remotely like this

fuck you guys
>>
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You guys are over looking something very important. Why is that space in the upper for the bolt cam pin so LONG and what is that extra thing they have on the back? My guess is that they have a special miniature bolt in it, the ejection port is going to be way back on the receiver and the rest of the 16 inch barrel is hidden in the reciever.
>>
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>>36461563
>be me
>be in Russia
>be freezing in -18 C
>periodically commit a pilgrimage to gun stores to stare at SVDs dreaming of time when I will eligible to own one
>meanwhile sit with 1/3 rifled 1974 AKM chambered into mene round that has a 5% chance of randomly blowing up a barrel
>save money to buy a terribly overpriced """"rifle"""" with unironically Victorian-era britbongistan barrel twisting invented to circumvent bolshevik cuckery
>gee I wonder what my WELL REGULATED friends are doing, probably shooting their full-auto, non-stop-warfare-capable assault machineguns to celebrate that their rights SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
>go on /k/
>burgers are losing their shit over apparently exactly the same meme """"rifling"""" for exactly the same reason
>mfw
>>
>>36468099
How the hell would it feed from the mag though? No way you could get an extra 4.5-5 inches of barrel in there and still feed from the mag
>>
>>36468099
the thing at the back is a quick release sling mount.

not sure about the upper slot though
>>
>>36465739
You know that. I know that. ATF might not.
>>
>>36468111
>Gopnik plz.
>>
>>36468125
None stanag magazines designed to be stripped off backwards?
>>
I honestly think they're trying to bluff the ATF. there's most likely no weird trickery with the barrel Bolt or trigger group. they just built a SBR with an oal of 26 and turned it in as a firearm with the indication that they would raise autistic hell over all the "pistols" that are even smaller theirs isn't approved. I think they're willing to force a standoff on the issue of this weapon ,pistol ars, braces, and sbrs. which could be great if it ends up changing the NFA or bad if all of the above end up needing to be registered. but if that happens the the government has to track down and register everything they add. just the amount of nignog dracos would be a major hassle. so they're letting this slide to avoid all that

TLDR
theyre saving the atf a bunch of money and paperwork
>>
>>36468099
That extended protrustion for the bolt cam pin is like that on already existing normal uppers from them, so that's nothing important. The "extra thing they have on the back" is just a qd sling mount.
>>
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>>36468163
lool nooooooooo
>>
>>36466952
thats not exactly helpful, your dog won't magically come back to life

The problem with the ATF is that it combines judicative and executive, or at least puts them VERY close together. Unlike the "normal" justice system, where a judge says "you're in the wrong" and then a cop (from a totally different institution) comes by to shoot you or your dog, the ATF decides on the right and wrong of the law AND is the same guys who shoots your dog. They interpret the law AND get to enforce it. Thats a clear violation of the separation of powers.

Why haven't you yanks started a revolution yet? Isn't that your argument for why you need to be armed citizens?
>>
>>36468184
Okay, thanks for the info about the bolt cam protrution. I did not know it was common for their uppers.
>>
I bet the name is a clever pun
"Reformation"
What gets reformed? Perhaps a proprietary segmented "shot" projectile in 223 brass that is "reformed" into a single projectile as it is fired into a tapered bore and swaged back into one unit?
Perhaps the taper is so slight that it could be backwards compatible with standard projectiles?
First half of the bore is a shotgun and second half is a rifle?
>>
>>36468315
Does anyone remeber DRT ammo? Compressed metal powder bullets? Like that, but in reverse.
>>
>smoothbore barrel
>5.56 "bb" round
>hop up unit somewhere

it could work....
>>
What if the barrel identifies as a 16.25" barrel?
>>
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>people still suggesting ridiculously overcomplicated nonsense
>>
>>36468180
>>36468554
This pretty much It's just a legal work around calling the govs bluff
>>
>Franklin releases the Reform
>have to shoot the special non bullet bullet out of it
>5.56 just so happens to also safely fire out of it
>ATF doesn't know what you are shooting out of it
>>
>>36468554
over complicated laws require over complicated solutions. sometimes.
>>
Any chance of it just firing from the open bolt? When measured inna ready to fire condition, maybe they get to add the barrel length + bolt travel distance
>>
>>36468670
maybe the reformation name is a Martin Luther reference
they're nailing the letter to the wall and saying fuck you this is how we're doing sbrs now
>selling stamp indulgences is a sin
>REPENT!!!!
>>
>>36468111
nice numbers
>>
>>36461657

So? Just replace it... It's only a muzzle device after all :D
>>
I think it has a giant knot tied in the barrel so its 16 inches of barrel that is 11" total length.
>>
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>>36468927
The crazy straw barrel. Genius
>>
>>36465752
have fun with hot loaded 22 magnum.
>>
I FIGURED IT OUT!!!
>>
>>36469031
>I still have literally no clue what I'm talking about
262, TMK and such do exactly what most 5.56 rounds do, except they do it at velocities as low as 1900fps. Read facts, nigger. Stop ignoring reality because you don't agree with it.
>>
How does the ATF define rifling?
>>
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>>36468752
>Martin Luther reference
When do they start exposing the jews and their lies?
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>>36468752
i think you cracked the code anon

the stylized font and renaissance-esque initial would agree with you
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>>36469088
ok what is it
>>
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>>36469088
Here is my basic (terrible drawing) representation. Basically the bolt sits inside the barrel. There is an opening and feed ramp in the barrel and the chamber is located in the center of the barrel.

The whole thing all the way back is rifled. So while the barrel is only 11 inches long, its legally 20+ inches long.
>>
So, how much do you guys think this is gonna cost without the tax stamp?
>>
>>36469199
>>36469088
>Double dubs of truth
>>
>>36469199
Do you know how barrel length is measured?
The answer is no
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>>36469225
I do. But the loophole is that it is measured from both ends. Still a single barrel and chamber. One side it 11 inches other side is say 10 inches. 11+10 is 21 inches. There is your loophole.
>>
>>36469098
are you seriously bragging about a 55-70 grain bullet going less than 2000 fps and trying to say it's effectiveness is anything close to spec 556? a 77g bullet doing 2400-2500 at the muzzle and drops 2 feet at 300 yards. forgive me if I'm not impressed.

every thread that comes up you post the same shit. you don't even have to have a tripcode because you spout the same drivel every time.
>but muh 262
>but muh TMK
nevermind the fact that they're over a dollar a shot unless you reload
nevermind the fact that penetration and fragmentation is a balance and if a bullet is designed for low velocity frag it's giving up penetration
>>
>>36469248
>. But the loophole is that it is measured from both ends.
It's measured from the breechface, which you've now moved halfway down the barrel.
>>
>>36462375
what if I put my stock on my upper pec?

checkmate ATF
>>
>>36469249
Didn't you get BTFO last time you starting saying a bunch of dumb bullshit?
>>
>>36469149
>>36468752
In the background of OP pic, you can see part of Luther's hammer and the paper.
>>36469201
Wild guessing, $700-$1000. More expensive than a basic AR, but not gucci-tier.
>>
>>36469265
no, i do the btfoing around here with these scrubs
>>
>>36469289
So it was you.
>>
>>36469201
$1,500-$2,000

Franklin Armory is in Cali and nothing they sell is cheap.
>>
>>36469252
>his bolt isnt double sided
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>>36461586
>>36463263
Someone else was saying something similar on their official FB account. Something about how the trigger firing one round on pull and one on release does not fall into MG or Rifle and therefore is in its own category. I have literally no idea how this would meet any ATF regs unless there aren't any and therefore they are forced to approve it through a crack.
>>
Can anyone just post the text of the relevant law regarding the definitions of "Firearm" and "SBR"?
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>>36469284
>$700-$1000
Lel, no. Their trigger alone is over $400.
I'd guess somewhere between $1500 and $2k.
>>
>>36469395
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845
>>
>>36469119
Soon
>>
>>36469301
They're in Nevada as well which is where their business is done from, but I agree on the pricing estimate.
>>
>>36464482
It's like he's serving a thanksgiving turkey.
>>
>>36468680
>Any chance of it just firing from the open bolt?
No.
>When measured inna ready to fire condition, maybe they get to add the barrel length + bolt travel distance
Thats not how they measure the barrel length. Check the atf website, they tell you how they do it.
>drop rod down barrel to face of breech in its closed position.
>>
>>36469201
About a grand more than with a tax stamp.
>>
>>36461563
All right, a list of disproved/highly unlikely possibilities:
>space magic action with a 16" barrel that extends further into the receiver due to the bump on the receiver for cam pin clearance being longer
That's Franklin Armory's standard billet upper. Also, their press release specifically says it has an 11.5" barrel.

>the hole at the back of the receiver is some new belt mount
That's just just for a QD sling, you can already get rifles from Franklin Armory with that lower.

>fuckery with the bolt going inside the barrel/the barrel extending backward past the bolt/the receiver and or buffer tube being rifled
Won't work, the ATF measures from the muzzle of the barrel (plus any permanently attached muzzle device) to the bolt face when in the firing position. The barrel extending further back wouldn't change anything.

>lack of rifling
Would just make it regulated as a shotgun instead.

>X form of rifling isn't rifling
No part of the law specifies that rifling has to be the most common land/groove style, otherwise Glocks and HKs would be classified as AOWs. Even still, this would just end up with it being classified as a shotgun instead and needing an even longer barrel to be legal.

>the ATF has just given up/bribes/new friendly ATF
Would be a terrible idea since their product would have a high likelihood of being declared to be illegal in the near future.

>it's a non gun that happens to be able to fire actual ammo
Won't work, see the can launching uppers that were deemed to make your gun an SBS/AOW because they could chamber and fire normal 5.56x45mm through their really short smooth bore barrel.

The most likely possibility here is seeming to be some sort of fuckery with the trigger causing it to not meet the definition of "rifle", which would be neat if it is since that could easily be applied to all the pistol carbines coming out which would benefit the most from not needing 16" barrels.
>>
>>36469675
>The most likely possibility here is seeming to be some sort of fuckery with the trigger
My vote is a revision to the binary trigger so that in the semi position it fires on the return stroke instead of the pull stroke. I've never shot a binary trigger, but I'm curious if would likely make for a very accurate trigger system. Any binary trigger users wanna comment - do you shoot more accurately on the return stroke than you do on the pull stroke?
>>
>>36469675
>which would be neat if it is since that could easily be applied to all the pistol carbines coming out
Their press release says they're patenting this, so I bet it will only be appearing on their stuff. Prepare to empty your wallet.
>>
My guess is it's overall length is over 26" which I thought was a defining characteristic for the ATF term "firearm". Like, not a pistol not a rifle. Like when a shotgun is built as a pistol size from ground up.
>>
I like how there still manages to be innovation in the gun industry, I don't like how almost all of it seems to be about figuring out wacky ways to skirt laws.
>>
>>36470260
That's the best part though. My favorite guns are those made out of pure spite for the government.
>>
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>>36468628
Schrodinger's rifle
>>
>>36469987
I know that there are some hunting rifles or shotguns out there that fire on release. Would it be more accurate in theory? There's two factors to consider, one being that it is breaking on the point where the trigger has the least tension on it (the release) while the other is that you now aren't "squeezing" the grip with your index finger anymore when it fires.
>>
>>36470202
No, thats not it. OAL < 26" just makes it fall under NFA same as barrel < 16". Pistol just means it doesnt have a (shoulderable) stock. Its something else, and given their big thing is their binary trigger its gotta be something with that. The acronym they're using is NRS, which I guess is Non Rifle System, a variant of their BFS (Binary Firing System) trigger pack that avoids the NFA's definition of rifle. Only thing is I cant see the ATF letting that slip through if it fires on the pull stroke in binary mode, since that would still meet the legal definition of rifle in at least that selector position.
>>
>>36461629
then how would the standard capacity magazine come into play?
>>
>>36470063
It's quite possible that whatever they're doing won't be patentable in a way that would extend beyond the AR platform. If a release trigger is the key for example, those have been around for probably more than a century.
>>
>>36470384
rolled paper cartridges
>>
>>36470383
They're referring to it themselves as a "firearm", which is why I suspect it's an OAL thing. I'm going to look up the Atf definition for such
>>
>>36470954
OAL doesnt determine whether its a rifle. That just determines whether its a rifle that is restricted by the NFA. The legal definition of a rifle in the NFA is rifled barrel, fires one shot per *pull* of the trigger, NFA is barrel < 16 in or OAL < 26 in. Machine gun = fires multiple shots per operation of the trigger, all are NFA. Shotgun = smoothbore, NFA is barrel < 18 in, pistol = no buttstock, smooth or rifled doesnt matter. All these are contingent on using fixed ammunition (bullet, powder, and primer in one fixed unit).
Note the difference in language about the trigger between rifle and machine gun. Given franklin's investment in binary triggers thats got to be where they're sliding into not a rifle territory.
>>
>>36470954
You want the NFA definitions, thats the original legal source for all this.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title26/pdf/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53.pdf

Page down a bit to Section 5845, "definitions", for the relevant bits.
>>
>>36470525
US changed its patent laws a few years ago, its now first to file not first to invent.
>>
>>36463917
>>36466906
Actually, yes. If it is designed to fire two projectiles through a rifled bore, it's neither rifle nor shotgun under the NFA.

The problem is, if you invent an all-new, duplex-only cartridge, how do you keep someone else from producing single-projectile loads for it (possibly at the behest of ATF), thus reclassifying your gun as a rifle?

A barrel that is neither "a rifled bore" nor "a smooth bore" seems a more sure bet, providing you can pin ATF down on what those mean.

A barrel that is not "a rifled bore" and a cartridge that is not "a fixed shotgun shell" also seems like a good bet.

But I really suspect it's just the binary-trigger thing. The difference of language in the "rifle" and "machinegun" definitions is an astonishing oversight -- thanks, incompetent '30s gun-grabbers!

>>36466002
Does a select fire "machinegun" become a "rifle" when you switch the selector to semi? I think "only a single projectile ... for a single pull of the trigger" in the rifle definition is the whole reason NFA machineguns with short barrels aren't two-stamp guns, and it would be hard to interpret it the way you're thinking without undermining that.

>>36468018
>The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
>through a smooth bore
If you replace your shotgun's smoothbore barrel with a rifled barrel, it's no longer a shotgun. But of course it's still made from a shotgun, so don't get any clever ideas about 16.5" barrels.
>>
>>36471274
>The problem is, if you invent an all-new, duplex-only cartridge, how do you keep someone else from producing single-projectile loads for it (possibly at the behest of ATF), thus reclassifying your gun as a rifle?
That would be the same question as whether shouldering an arm brace is considered remanufacturing a pistol into a rifle. I hope the eventual answer for this will be the same.

Or rather, I hope they just get to repealing the NFA soon.
>>
>>36471178
Common misunderstanding, but that has nothing to do with what inventions are eligible for patents. FTI/FTF only comes into play when two inventors independently come up with the same invention before anyone has made it public, and both apply for patents. Then FTF/FTI is used to determine who gets a patent, and who gets to fuck off.

To be patentable, an invention must be non-obvious and novel. The idea of a release trigger, as well as some specific mechanisms for release triggers, are simply not novel, because they've been public knowledge for many decades. A whole slew of yet-unbuilt release-trigger mechanisms aren't patentable because they are obvious -- they're variations on already-known release-trigger mechanisms that any firearms designer of ordinary skill would make in adapting the those mechanisms to different actions.

A specific new release-trigger mechanism that was not a simple adaptation of an existing release trigger could well be patentable, but it will almost certainly be easy to make a different release trigger for the AR-15 that doesn't infringe on any such patent that could be granted today.
>>
>>36464482
Anon you're paying everyone with the same dollar
>>
>>36461697
The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

It fires multiple projectiles from a caseless munition OR nonmetallic cartridge through a rifled barrel.

It's a flechette gun.
>>
>>36461563
it's a bump trigger, the trigger actually has three states, static, firing, and recoiling, if you hold your firing down at the reset position the trigger evolves between it's firing and recoiling functions but the trigger is still only pulled once
>>
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>>36471902
>bumptrigger
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>>36465606
But at what cost?




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