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Share some ideas, they might be relevant for doing surveys.
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>>8713606
It all depends on if you can wether they're "trans-hsts" or not, like you say.
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>>8713618
There's no reason to think "trans-HSTS" is a real category. Might just be weird outliers, for example.
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>>8713623
Well, even "trans-HSTSes" still identity closely with being a total man by their own admission until after puberty, so all AGP children should be blocked.
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>>8713630
Why do you care so much about 'legitimacy', Cara?
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>>8713606
Blanchard thinks none of them should transition. Same for HSTSs. He thinks they should be cured.

Here's an idea: we know trans people tend to have certain neural markers, even before hormones. If you stop denying the neurological evidence you can screen people for being trans via MRIs. How's that for a useful prediction?
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>>8713663
>If you stop denying the neurological evidence you can screen people for being trans via MRIs. How's that for a useful prediction?

TERFs would never allow it.
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the whole situation is whack. from personal experience i've had mtf hrt fix so many health issues in me that i've not seen mentioned online once. at this point if my hrt is taken, i'll pay mexican cartels cocaine prices for more.

for instance, one example: i've had my jaw crack my entire adolecense/adulthood. imagine eating food and u feel glass shatter in ur jaw and u cant speak or eat for the rest of the day. is this TMJ? idfk but multiple dentists have told me to stfu and grow up.

estrogen fixed it.

eat me.
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>>8713663
Blanchard is an evil transphobe. You shouldn't listen to him about the things he's wrong about, only the things he's right about.

Anyway, with regards to the neural thing: why would you assume that 'cis' A*Ps don't have the same neural markers?
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>>8713643
Because after a lifetime of being lectured on what your identity is, having the people that finally accepted you turn around and talk about how people that were male contextualized their entire childhood and who have PIV sex and perform PUA things on women have a more legitimate identity than me, and try to disguise it under "everyone being equal", hurts so bad. It hurts me all the time.
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>>8713685
>Anyway, with regards to the neural thing: why would you assume that 'cis' A*Ps don't have the same neural markers?
Because "HSTSs" share most of these markers with "AGPs", thus why I think that they're related to experiencing gender dysphoria.

With that said you raise an interesting point: what *are* the differences? Can we see them with our current tools? I think a study comparing dysphoric AGPs with non-dysphoric AGPs, with careful screening, would help us figure things out once and for all.
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>>8713696
The world doesn't revolve around you.
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>>8713713
I didn't say that it did. That's just a lie that you made up about me.
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>>8713696
>>8713767
Not them but you're the one intent on hurting people barely different from you because you don't like being associated with them. The whole legitimacy thing is nonsense. You're all trans.
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>>8713779
Exactly. It's just narcissism.
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>>8713707
My suspicion is that dysphoric vs non-dysphoric aren't two persistent groups; there's plenty of narratives that seem to go from the latter to the former. See e.g. here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/6onjx7/my_dysphoria_is_not_only_getting_worse_but/

(What do I suspect is the difference? Well, you know how a lot of cis people are clueless with regards to clocking? This is probably because a lot of cis people are clueless with regards to sexual dimorphism in general. I think the better you "get" sexual dimorphism, the more dysphoric you are. This is just a guess so far, though; I have some ideas for testing it, but they haven't been implemented yet.)
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>>8713872
I LOVE YOU SURVEY ANON PEACE BE UPON YOU
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>>8713630

basically this. The "HSTS SAYING SHE'S A GIRL SINCE CHILD" is basically a lie, also known as the "traditional narrative" told by early trans and passed from generation to generation to avoid gatekeeping and getting hormones.
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>>8713892
i am so proud of lgbt today
yall gettin cereal
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>>8713872
That's a good point. I don't remember being dysphoric as a kid and the feelings have definitely intensified over time. Dysphoria is also cyclical for a lot of people, usually over the course of months. You have your bad periods and your good periods.

Here's what I'll bet though: people of the proposed cis AGP group have *never* experienced gender dysphoria, and we'll be able to spot the difference between them and the rest.

What complicates this, and what we kind of need to address before testing this, are the desistance statistics. If most trans youths, including AGPs, desist around adulthood and never feel dysphoric again then that's a third group we need to consider. What's your take on desistance?
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>>8713892
>>8713916
Is it really? I'm "AGP" (I don't believe in the typology but I recognize the early onset vs late onset correlations) and I remember having AGP fantasies since the age of 4 (though I did not think of myself as a girl back then, or until much much later). Is it really implausible that a "HSTS" couldn't feel that she's a girl at 4?
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>>8713696

An identity is as legitimate as the beliefs of its holder.

Being gay doesn't make you more of a woman, being truly feminine does.

>And being a manipulative bitch in order to get more attractive couples is a very feminine thing to do.

>also, the ones requesting more SRS by % tend to be the AGp, HSTS are the ones who can get it

>PIV sex: Hah, most HSTS do watch gay porn, and get excited at the tought of a penis penetrating a man. Where does a cis woman get excited about anal penetration? Most yaois for cis girls hide that part or directly don't show it, centering themselves around the romance, while HSTS outright get excited and FAP to the thought. Ever heard of "active" trans? guess what, they like to be the top when fucking men, something a "lesbian" would never do.

People is getting informed and the dirtiest secrets of "HSTS" being unveiled, you aren't much better than AGPs, specially when it comes to sex. Being the top in a gay relationship is something ONLY A MAN could do or wish.

Identity my ass. The traditional narrative is falling ,and the truth is dirtier than you think.
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on bingo i score bingo with agp and almost no hsts. i feel disphoric and dimorphic since grade school. also never been into men sexually (im born xy). i started hrt at +30 because dysphoria got overwhelming and rl crashed from constant t rage

am i too sober for this thread?
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>>8713892
>>8713943
Are you the psych clinic aide?
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>>8713934

Talked to a lot of HSTS

You can't identify as something different from the rest until you develop a "theory of the mind", a mental tool ingrained in our dna which happens starting at 7.

Earliest case known in the world are people like Jazz Jennings, and those are rare exceptions that probaly get a lot of parental information and support and talk to the transkid.

Most transkids identify as boys because their parents tell them so, only identify themselves as women once they REALIZE (meaning it's an acquired, non-innate knowledge) they may have the mind of a girl, which happens only after some mental maturity and world experience has been acquired. Until then, they're just kids that play with girls toys, get along better with girls, and so on, but most identify as boys.

Next time a trans tells you "she's known since forever" you'll know she's lying.
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>>8713943
muh conspuracies run deep ya'll.
Please go on.
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>>8713995

Huh, pulled a string there, right?
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>>8714004
>>8713974
Uh how about, I trust actual clinicians that work with trans youth instead of some shit posters pretending to have special secret knowledge.
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>>8713888
I've got fans! :D

(... probably. Hard to know for sure in an anonymous imageboard, but eh.)

>>8713922
I'm not sure about the desistance statistics. There's a lot of possible explanations, and maybe multiple of them are true.

* There's the classical "they weren't actually trans, just GNC" explanation, though as a Blanchardian I don't give it much credence without an explanation of the difference.
* One possible explanation of the difference is that both persisters and desisters have a resistance to sex hormones, but that it is weaker among desisters, leading to puberty functioning as a sort of natural conversion therapy.
* Perhaps A*P plays a role? Though if that was the case, we'd probably expect the ratio to be reversed.
* If I understand correctly, the statistics have been collected from transkids who went through puberty or something, right? Perhaps they decided to repress as a result of the pubertal body changes.
* Could something have convinced them that they weren't actually trans, even though they are? (Encountering A*P narratives maybe?)

There's likely a lot of other factors too.
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>>8713974
Interesting. I value your perspective but I feel like you're being needlessly hostile to "HSTSs". There is an enormous amount of pressure to conform to the sacred narrative and childhood memories are hard to recall in exact detail. I'm sure a lot of people are being genuine about remembering, for example, wanting to do some feminine activity, being denied the right to do so, feeling awful about it and retroactively fitting the memory to them being trans. Please don't paint these people as malicious.
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>>8714039
To add to that a lot of people break down and go back to repressing, and up until recently you didn't actually have to want to be the other gender in order to qualify for GID.

>One possible explanation of the difference is that both persisters and desisters have a resistance to sex hormones, but that it is weaker among desisters, leading to puberty functioning as a sort of natural conversion therapy.
That's a thought I had myself, coming from the transness is caused by abnormal natal development angle.

Any thoughts about my other prediction? Do you still think there's no such a thing as a cis AGP, and that we'll find the same patterns in ye run of the mill crossdressers?
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>>8714045

>needlessly hostile to "HSTSs".

>There is an enormous amount of pressure to conform to the sacred narrative

Not being hostile towards HSTS, but towards the traditional narrative.

Many HSTS do have to lie to "fit in" with the others. The problem is that they don't know the others are doing the same.

Thus, all of them are living a lie and get self-steem issues because they believe the others are saying the truth, when they aren't

HSTS would have much less self-steem problems (they do have a lot) if the truth was unveiled and they were all freed from that lie.
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>>8714082
what are you?
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>>8714082
That's a sensible position. I agree, that would be for the best. I just got a hostile vibe from your post here
>>8713943

Do you think that's an uncharitable reading on my part?
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>>8714072
Well, there's 'cis AGP' in the sense that there's plenty of people who are only very slightly AGP and therefore also only very slightly interested in being the opposite sex, and this very slight interest might not outweigh other things desires that'd make them want to stay cis.

However, for people who are more A*P, I think your prediction very much requires some sort of non-Blanchardian (MIGI) theory, which I don't believe. I guess we could imagine that there's a difference between obligate AGP ("I can literally only get off to imagining myself as a girl") versus non-obligate AGP, where the latter might not become dysphoric no matter how intense their AGP is. I think it's a stretch, though.

One thing worth pointing out is that your model probably legitimizes a fetishist/trutrans dichotomy, since cis AGPs do seem to tend to want to be women. (Unless you think all the AGPs who want to be women are trans, even if they aren't dysphoric yet?)
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>>8713606
Before asking how to distinguish them, ask what the difference is. What is an A*P who should transition and an A*P who shouldn't?

"if they are happier transitioned", "if they need to transition", etc are begging the question.
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>>8714072
Also, one thing that's worth adding:

My brother is gay and thinks he could meaningfully be considered an HSTS desister. He thinks both the mental masculinization during puberty and AAP plays a role in his case.
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daily psychoanalyist thread from people who have no interest in studying psychology beyond what it can do for their shitposting rate
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>>8714168
Hmm.. I feel like we might be conflating several kinds of Wanting. For example consider a woman with a rape fetish. She might get off to certain fantasies and "want" them in that sense but she does not actually want to be raped for real. A man might have a mind control fetish but he wouldn't want to actually spend his life being mind-controlled. Are we positive all of the AGP groups want to be women in the same sense?

>One thing worth pointing out is that your model probably legitimizes a fetishist/trutrans dichotomy, since cis AGPs do seem to tend to want to be women. (Unless you think all the AGPs who want to be women are trans, even if they aren't dysphoric yet?)
Yeah, though the division is really weird and not along the HSTS/AGP axis. It's strange but it matches my experience. I've ran into a few people on 4chan who claimed that they experienced no dysphoria, didn't identify as women, transitioned because it was their fetish and basically went on to be normie girls. Those accounts were far apart and didn't read like trolling. I don't know. These people sounded happy but I'm not convinced they're trans in the same way dysphoric AGPs are. I don't think they're "less legitimate" or anything though since rationally if it made them happy and harmed no one there is no problem with their course of action. It could be that I'm reading too much into this and projecting as an AGP but most of the /agpg/ regulars of yesteryear sounded like a very different breed. Worried about being "just fetishists", worried that they shouldn't transition because of that, worried that their conviction that they're female stems from a paraphilia, worried that their body dysphoria stems from the paraphilia.. the only real overlap was both groups being aroused by AGP fantasies. What do you say? Am I just too biased by my own feelings or is something up?
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>>8714188
How can a gay/HSTS and an AGP be in the same family?
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>>8714082
P.S. that's a really cute jaypeg
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>>8714288
There's a lot of distinctions we 'could' draw, but whenever we start doing that I always step back and look at other ETLEs (BIID, otherkin, etc.). I don't think the big-picture pattern justifies these distinctions, and it's probably more due to individual factors (personality, passability, etc.) than due to fundamental differences.

I'm not sure what you make of things like BIID and otherkin, btw?

>>8714302
Same way a straight person and a gay person can be in the same family.
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>>8713685
>Blanchard is an evil transphobe.
I wish Trent was back.
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>>8714411
I think otherkin/etc are distinct from transsexuals because a human can end up intersex but not interspecies. There is a plausible mechanism for why they might be like that. We have evidence that, on average, trans people have brains that fall between those of men and women (distributively rather than absolutely i.e. the trans bell curve is between the male and female bell curves).

BIID differs from Gender Dysphoria in that that it is not alleviated by allowing the patient to modify their body to be more like they want it to be while Gender Dysphoria is alleviated by the same process.

I know you like simple theories but I definitely feel ETLEs cast such a wide net that they're unworkable.

There are some old ass studies about natal androgen exposure causing cross-gender-typical behavior in various animals. The second link is very readable (though primarily because it is a narrative account of the study rather than the study). This is another reason why I think the natal model makes more sense BUT keep in mind that I accept that some people who are not "trans" in that sense still want to transition, do transition and apparently do well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3235069
http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC3146061/
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>>8713685
>he's only right about things I personally agree with, even if both of us have no evidence to support anything!
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>>8714524
AFAIK BIID patients do benefit from amputations. Are you sure you're not mixing it up with BDD?

I definitely agree that there's cognitive sex differences which can be affected by prenatal sex hormones. However, this corresponds more to GNC homosexuality (and HSTS) than it does to your average (A*P) trans person.
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>>8714567
>AFAIK BIID patients do benefit from amputations. Are you sure you're not mixing it up with BDD?
I have. My bad. I don't know much about BIID.

>I definitely agree that there's cognitive sex differences which can be affected by prenatal sex hormones. However, this corresponds more to GNC homosexuality (and HSTS) than it does to your average (A*P) trans person.
Non-HSTSs show most of the same sex-atypical neural patterns HSTSs do. Is this not a plausible explanation as to why that is? I think the natal exposure model is just a lot more robust in this area. It offers far more explanatory power, at the cost of shrugging at why the hell people are AGP.
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did male puberty hurt? did you envy female puberty? why yes!

does mtf hrt hurt? nope! feels gud!
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>>8714616
I just don't see the cross-gender-typical behavior that this theory would imply. Until transition, queer trans people seem more gender conforming than cis gays.
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>>8714709
I actually agree that non-HSTSs tend to be more gender conforming. I think the key is looking at how cis homosexuals of the sex the transsexual is transitioning to behave. They themselves tend to be GNC. We're potentially looking at a spectrum with cis hets on both points, cis gays drawn some distance toward the other sex, non-HSTS being drawn a greater distance yet to their non-natal sex and HSTSs being drawn the most toward their non-natal sex. This is consist with what we know of androphilia and gynephilia in general and explains why late-onset transsexuals are largely GC with a few aberrant behaviors at most. It might even explain genital avoidance differences.
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>>8714103

Officially I fit in what is called the HSTS category.

>>8714114

>hostile vibe

Yes I'm a bit itchy about this issue, in my first years as a trans I was too naive and sincere, and got scolded from other trans who told the typical narrative. Then, as years came by, came to the realization that younger HSTS, specially if naive, tend to tell the truth... and quickly learn to hide it. Got some peers secretly tell me I'm right, but in public they keep the standard story.

Whatever, I just want the greater good. Thanks for your apreciation!!
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>>8714832
SMBC, eh? Good taste.
What you want to do is good and I'm sorry you've been hurt but please don't take it out on others like that. It'll help people accept your words as the truth. Other people like you are the ones you're trying to help, right?

I wish the reality that most gynephilic MTFs experience AGP at some point could also be discussed in public in this fashion but that would be outright fatal. A lot of people are already inclined to believe folks like that are just perverts. Telling them this would confirm that in their minds, setting trans rights decades back. It's awful but we have to keep the false narrative propped up for now for our safety, even though this means countless trans AGPs will never recognize what they are because they don't have the information to reason about themselves.

>Thanks for your appreciation!
And thank you for sharing.
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>>8714874
>It's awful but we have to keep the false narrative propped up for now for our safety, even though this means countless trans AGPs will never recognize what they are because they don't have the information to reason about themselves.
Can someone replace the rainbow with a second trans flag?
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>>8714880
It's the trolley problem, yeah? Either everyone are screwed over or just some are. The two flags hugging while a panzer runs them over isn't exactly a better outcome.
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Children should never transition because 80% of cases resolve by age 18.
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>>8714886
What gives you the right to sign anybody's execution order?
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>>8714887
There's a discussion on the why of it here:
>>8714039
>>8714072

It's questionable how many cases actually resolve.
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>>8714897
It's either killing everyone or only those who did not look up information online for whatever reason. What is the advantage of the former? The latter's death is guaranteed in all cases.
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>>8714874

No, you didn't get my point.

I mean that HSTS (non-AGP) also endorse a false narrative, the traditional narrative, because their past isn't usually what they say it was.

For example, I know of an HSTS girl who's into sports cars, martial arts, guns, computers and plays shoters. Make up, fashion and hairdressing have been a late acquisition for her, like she probably didn't touch eyeliner until she was 21-22.

I know of another who transitioned at 25, yet she says she was on hrt at 15, which is a blatant lie since I've seen pics of her before 25 and hell, that was a masculine musculature.

A drag queen transitioning into a woman with 35, repressed until then. Said she was a man until a little before transitioning

Also, gay AGPs, they aren't unheard of.

And the show goes on.

And they ALL tell you the same "I knew I was a girl since child, I always played with barbies" hahaha yeah, sure, that's why you never see them showing pics playing with dolls as a child hahaha.

What does that say about the traditional narrative?

>The devil is in the details ;)
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>>8713606
If you have dysphoria and you're not sexually attracted to yourself, you're HSTS. Otherwise, you are AGP.
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>>8714902
No it's not. You're lying to yourself so you don't have to acknowledge what you're doing.
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>>8714909
No yeah, I got you. I just wanted to say that I'd love to similarly expose the traditional "non-HSTS" narrative as false, as you're doing for your group, but that doing so is just too dangerous. As in "the reds will start lynching all of us" dangerous.
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>>8714898
In the case of AGPs it usually doesn't resolve. If they get scolded for cross gender interests they just learn to keep it a secret. Thats why i'm skeptical of trans kids being magically cured by time.
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>>8714916
Republican scumbags are already trying to fuck over transsexuals at every chance they get. What do you think they'd do if the Blanchardian version of AGP became well-known? That would be outright apocalyptic.

I don't go around deceiving people. I just don't educate them about how some 75% of gynephilic MTFs and 25% of androphilic MTFs have experienced autogynephilia at some point in their lives unless we're in an anonymous setting.
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>>8714924

Yeah, I know

I think AGP should be seen as something that happens, without prejudices. Indeed I've been observing some and they clearly show signs of femininity in childhood too. Further analysis is required, tho. But it's a shame because you're confronted with even more prejudices than us.

I think the best path would be to unmask first the HSTS group, this would pave the way to accept AGP as another symptom of dysphoria that just happens when you like girls.

Or maybe wait until society changes and we're free to unleash the truth about both groups...

It's so sad, since the traditional narrative hurts many questioning girls, who compare their past against a fabricated lie, and thus, thinking they don't fit in the lie, they think they're not trans, thus their transition is delayed until dysphoria grows too much, and then it can be too late to get the best results from HRT.

Happent with me, and with the 35 year old girl, and with many others.
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>>8714940

>What do you think they'd do if the Blanchardian version of AGP became well-known?

That's why actual science has to be done QUICK, and my posts may help in that direction, providing some pointers.

Also, as much as I hate endorsing them, SJW may have a point in what they're doing for the rest of the trans
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>>8714940
>Republican scumbags are already trying to fuck over transsexuals at every chance they get.
How they would envy you if they knew how badly they paled in comparison.

Don't you call them scumbags. What they do they do more honestly and with better intentions than you.
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>>8714966
Lmao
I just wanna be not suicidal and not murdered for doing what I can to not be suicidal.
Republicans want me to either repress and inevitably commit suicide, or just be killed. I'm not doing anything wrong, whereas they are actively attacking others.
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>>8714966
>Defending republicans
The scary part is that you're not even trolling ayyy
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>>8714976
>Republicans want me to either repress and inevitably commit suicide
Their worst crime is being you, except they don't know better.

>>8714988
The scary part is that I wasn't defending them.
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>>8715002
Yeah, you're just saying not speaking about something in public while helping others with it in private makes me worse than the people who are actively working toward our destruction.
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>>8715011
Our one high ground is the truth and you want people working to destroy us to be the ones speaking the most of it.
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>>8715026
Who would those people be? The Blanchardian conception of autogynephilia, parroted by TERFs, is just untrue. APA explicitly make the connection between age of onset and AGP in the DSM without the rest of the bullshit. The professional class is well-aware. There is just a lack of mainstream awareness.

Speaking of high grounds.. are *you* going around spreading mainstream awareness regarding this issue, or do you think it is somehow fair to deem me a monster for not actively "helping" when I genuinely think doing so would be harmful to the movement while you're not doing much to "help" yourself?
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>>8715051
>The Blanchardian conception of autogynephilia, parroted by TERFs, is just untrue.
How?
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>>8714832
>Officially I fit in what is called the HSTS category.
Have you talked to any medical professional who told you that? Or are you basing that off of what you've read online? If so, what did you read to come to that conclusion?
Why do you think agp hsts have descriptive power that's better than just saying trans woman, attracted to men/women, sometimes popped a boner when I did/wore feminine things a child?
Do you think women have been turned on at some point in their lives by feminine stuff or fulfilling a feminine role?
Do you think that boys who want to do feminine things but know that they're not supposed to would become ashamed of that and thus fetishize their desire?
How old are you?

>>8714909
>And they ALL tell you the same "I knew I was a girl since child, I always played with barbies" hahaha yeah, sure, that's why you never see them showing pics playing with dolls as a child hahaha.
I went to a youth support group for a bit over a year in a half mil pop city, and I didn't hear anyone give that narrative. Perhaps you only have anecdotal evidence that trans people have to lie about their experiences?

>>8714913
This seems like what a misogynistic old man would come up with, but perhaps the model he proposed is wrong.
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>>8715072
Flawed methodology and unfalsifiable concepts such as ETLEs aside, it just completely ignores neurology. Primarily because it was created before we had most of the evidence and was never updated to confront it. There's a reason why his theories have been mostly abandoned by the professional establishment while their true parts (age of onset correlating with orientation and experiencing autogynephilic arousal) are clearly acknowledged in the literature.

Now it is your turn to answer a question. Namely the one you've avoided so far.
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>>8715101
You tell me what to do.
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>>8715101
Kay Brown disagrees with the AGPs have feminized brains pre HRT narrative. Is she right?
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>>8713943
what about genital avoidance in certain hsts?
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>>8715459
It's hardly a narrative at this point. It's something we know by direct observation. We can argue about why though.

She criticized some of the early research in the area and I don't think her criticism of some of Swaab's early work was even unfair but a lot of work has been done since by a lot of different people. To the degree that HSTSs have brains that differ from those of gay men, AGPs (with a few exceptions) share those differences. I say HSTSs and AGPs but, really, it's androphiles and gynephiles since a minority of gynephiles are not AGP and a minority of androphiles are. The modern early vs late onset distinction rather than the old Blanchard etiology one.
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>>8715098

>Have you talked to any medical professional who told you that?

No AGP desires or fantasies

I like men

I qualify. When transitioning my psych just asked once about if I had some kind of fetishes, I said, no, and that was enough to him, he knew me pretty well from all the interviews and never worked on more on the subject. I know he's worked on fetishes with some transbians I've met later, mostly to see the extent of the power of those fetishes. If he never asked me back about it, I get that as a signal that a proffessional accepts me.

Why such a stupid quesiton?

>Do you think women have been turned on at some point in their lives by feminine stuff or fulfilling a feminine role?

This is not the same as putting on lingerie in front of a mirror and basturbating ot it on a regular basis. Women don't masturbate to themselves in lingerie.

>Do you think that boys who want to do feminine things but know that they're not supposed to would become ashamed of that and thus fetishize their desire?

AGP is not exactly a fetish, it doesn't respond to the patterns of a fetish. Of course, it has an obvious erotic component, but is far more profound and complex, than, let's say, a fetish for exhibitionism. AGP is a different thing, not just a fetish.

I don't know what toanswer to your question, but there are my 2 cent.

>Perhaps you only have anecdotal evidence that trans people have to lie about their experiences?

It may change with the local culture. Many trans I've met over the internet are a bit more open than those in my area, who seem stuck in the blanchardian times or in an even more primitive era.

Anyways, the "faking a narrative" shit exists, and I'm tired of seeing it everywhere in HSTS (and in older AGP too, younger ones are more open about it). Anyways, the "traditional narrative" which is something less than 1% of transexual women have experienced, has its roots in the gatekeeping era, and is used as an instrument of discrimination and oppresion
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>>8714942
>>8714946
Also since you're here again and I was busy being mad at someone else last night: agreed on all counts.

>>8716831
I'm not sold on AGP not being a fetish desu. If it was something else I wouldn't expect it to fade post-transition so often.
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>>8715101

Its biggest mistakes where those

-The correlation is false, the bisexual and pseudobisexual groups are mixed in only one, thus spoiling many data

-It doesn't accept outlyers, when it is a prerequisite for any theory or model to be able to accept outlyers. For example, non-agp lesbians, and agp-hsts, for example, which were found to exist even in the earliest studies.

-The autogynephilia scale was poorly designed and doesn't follow any of the standard rules for psychological tests, thus being unreliable.

>>8715459

>Kay Brown disagrees with the AGPs have feminized brains pre HRT narrative. Is she right?

Kay Brown is an AGP in disguise who wants to fake being an HSTS for legitimacy. She's basically what americans call an "uncle tom".

She's been suspected to have had some lesbian relationships, one of which ended bad and unveiled all her bigotry.

More info here

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/transkids/candice-brown-elliott.html

>>8716300

>what about genital avoidance in certain hsts?

as I said: The devil is in the details

I've been suspecting for quite a while that transexual typology may be a bit more complex than just 2 groups

for example the HSTS may be further divided in 2, those with genital avoidance and those without

From my (anecdotal) experience, I've seen that those with genital avoidance tend to behave much more like cis women, while the ones with "genital acceptance", many times just seek the social experience of being a woman, while in bed they can be more bottoms but topping on ocasion, or otherwise using their genitalia for sexual purposes with their partners

It isn't very feminine to literally FAP or wishing to penetrate, right? Yet those girls usually get a "they're more feminine status" than many transbians that show feminine behaviors and hate their genitals and just want a vagina to be like any other cis lesbian would be, just because they like men. Don't do cis lesbians exist? Why can't a trans be lesbian?
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>>8716859
IIRC HSTSs are genital avoidant far more often than AGPs. My theory is that genital avoidance heavily correlates with how feminized the person is, and that HSTSs tend to be more feminized in general. If you look at cis lesbians they're more masculine than cis het women so this fits the pattern. Cis gay men are also more feminine than cis straight men.
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>>8716848

thanks yay!!

to be honest, no matter if AGP or HSTS or "tranny from outer space".

We all share the same demographic: we are trans women, and thus face shared problems.

We should be helping each others like sisters or else we'll keep suffering from prejudice and discrimination, also we gotta be strategical and protect the best interests of both groups as if we were only one.

I don't get why many HSTS despise AGP, that's so short-sighted, and maybe one of our first battles is to fight this division and start understanding that, no matter the reasons, dysphoria is real for all of us
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>>8716880

>If you look at cis lesbians they're more masculine than cis het women so this fits the pattern.

You clearly don't know. SOME lesbians may be on the butch side, but many others are quite feminine. Ever heard of "lipstick lesbians"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_lesbian

Also, many cis hetero women are pretty masculine, from the farmer mom to the granny who carries logs to the fat factory worker to the drunkard whore in the bar., to the fitness girl in your local gym to the aggressive entrepreneur... and the list goes on. Just search for it and you'll see

>Cis gay men are also more feminine than cis straight men.

The same applies here. Go to a gym and try to find your local BEAR. And what about male heterosexual hairdressers? Or male heterosexual artists? What about hipsters and goths and early rock musicians? What about betas and omegas? Most of them are cis-hetero yet display many female cues and behavior patterns

>IIRC HSTSs are genital avoidant far more often than AGPs.

Remember from where?

Ever went to the street and talked to actual trans women? Ever readed official NHS data about SRS from different countries? Ever been in a trans clique?

Genital "shame" is a very prevalent symptom in AGP trans. In the later stages of their dysphoria they can't even touch their genitals because they're literally ashamed of it.

Also, talking about anecdotal evidence/personal experience, all the trans I've met that want to keep their penis, are 100% androphilic, or at least bi with a clear preference for men. All transbians I've met want a pussy to be licked and played with...
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>>8716903
I'm not sure we disagree? I was talking about tendencies, in the aggregate. Being gay doesn't mean you're definitely behaviorally like the other sex but there's evidence that androphiles, regardless of gender identity, tend to have more feminine brains and vice versa for gynephiles. This is not just a trans thing.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain.html

So yeah, not saying that you're 100% going to be femme/masc depending on your orientation, but there's definitely a correlation. Masc lesbians are still women, right? We shouldn't look down on gynephilic MTFs for being masc in the same fashion (or, to be fair, say that all of them are masc). Even masc lesbians are more feminine than men.

>Remember from where?
Got me there. I can't remember!
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>>8716921

>We shouldn't look down on gynephilic MTFs for being masc in the same fashion (or, to be fair, say that all of them are masc).

agreed here. Also, I've seen that the most masc transbians are usually those that have transitioned late and have had a male socialization for longer.

Early transitioner transbians show much more femininity than them.

So maybe it's a thing of "how much time have you been socialized as a sex or the other" thing?

>Even masc lesbians are more feminine than men.

depends on the men, depends on the lesbian
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>>8714880
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>>8716954
>Both of you should jump off the cliff together IMO
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>>8713685
Read your thread and then tell me who is evil.
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>>8718467
lmao
How about the guy who keeps retweeting TERFs and spreading his pseudoscientific lies? Sorry, I forgot, not going out of your way to tell people that transvestic fetishism is common among transsexuals is worse.
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>>8718486
Ok but 4thwave now is legit. They btfo retarded transtrender ftms.
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>>8713606

>AGP children who should transition
Remember having moments where they wanted to be girls that were not explicitly sexual/arousing in addition to AGP moments.

>AGP children who shouldn't transition
All the desire to be a woman ever was was sexual.

Done and Done.
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>>8720335
Well right, obviously transbians are going to like feminism only when it's based in "btfoing" women rather than men.
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>>8720379
K Y S
Y
S
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>>8720379
Go ask 4th Wave Now if they consider you a woman :^)
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>>8713663
There's a fuckton of research needed before we get actual usable markers and brain research is very expensive


Requiring it of actual patients also puts unnecessary financial burden on them when just waiting a bit and giving them HRT is more or less safe
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>>8723435
Not disagreeing. That's a long-term solution.
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>>8713974
>You can't identify as something different from the rest until you develop a "theory of the mind", a mental tool ingrained in our dna which happens starting at 7.
Theory of mind starts showing at 3 in healthy kids

>>8714168
>some sort of non-Blanchardian (MIGI) theory
MIGI??

>>8714288
>These people sounded happy but I'm not convinced they're trans in the same way dysphoric AGPs are.
I'm not convinced they were genuinely non-dysphoric though, I remember 2 main posters that replies to questions etc. and they both when prompted reported history of depression that went away after transition (hell for one anon the trigger to transition was a failed suicide attempt)
Sure depression sometimes goes away for teens but I think it's more likely that these are just people that have trouble pinpointing their own discomfort to a cause (which is not that uncommon in cis people)
> It could be that I'm reading too much into this and projecting as an AGP but most of the /agpg/ regulars of yesteryear sounded like a very different breed. Worried about being "just fetishists", worried that they shouldn't transition because of that, worried that their conviction that they're female stems from a paraphilia, worried that their body dysphoria stems from the paraphilia.. the only real overlap was both groups being aroused by AGP fantasies.
They probably weren't like this as teens though
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>>8721494
Kek. 4thwavenow would tell Cara she should try being a gay man and wait until 25 for her brain to be fully developed before transitioning.
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>>8723723
>I'm not convinced they were genuinely non-dysphoric though.
Yeah, that's another possibility. I'm just wary when it comes to telling people they're wrong about their own lived experience. Still, something to keep in mind.

>They probably weren't like this as teens though
My impression is that most of them (us) knew next to nothing about transsexuality as teens and so haven't even considered whether they could be trans. Accounts of being depressed and, on some level, wanting to be female as a teen are common though. There are also childhood accounts but interestingly those rarely involve depression.
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>>8723818
>I'm just wary when it comes to telling people they're wrong about their own lived experience.
Oh I'm not suggesting they're lying or wrong, just that them being classified as non-dysphoric is a matter of different wording used and different interpretations of both the term and their own experience

Zinnia Jones describes a similar thing yet frames it as hidden dysphoria for example
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>>8713974
>>8723723
For someone stupid please explain theory of mind and how it relates to trans?
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>>8723723
>MIGI??
Magical Innate Gender Identity
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>>8723868
Theory of mind is recognizing yourself as a person who is thinking, and is distinct from all other people who are thinking their own thoughts
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>>8723893
ok so what does that mean in practice?
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>>8723887
You sly fucker :)
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>>8723868
Theory of mind is the idea that other people have minds separate from your own, with their own set of information that might not overlap with the one you have etc.

For example a kid without a theory of mind might assume their parents know they are hungry, never tell them they want are hungry and want snack (because the parents already know), then get angry at them for not getting them a snack because they see it as a conscious denying of their needs (in fact it's a common theme in memories of autistic people - autism is linked to impaired ToM)

A kid with a normally developed theory of mind will know that in order to get the toy you need to tell your parents they want it (because the information doesn't get to their mind unless you transfer it there)


It's not something that randomly pops out at a certain age but more of a skill that develops and gets refined over time

In high functioning adults impairments might show as under-explaining stuff for example
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>>8723911
i get it! so how does trans come into it?
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>>8723958

In many ways

Here are a couple examples.

1 you start to realize that other boys' mind doesn't work as yours (either HSTS or AGP doesn't matter since this is a REALIZATION that you're different), and if "they're all different" it means that YOU are the different one, thus allowing you to start realizing you're... not cis

2 In order for you to ask to be treated as a girl, you have to know that your parents DON'T KNOW how you want to be adressed

3 The info brought by a developed Theory of the Mind allows you to compare yourself to the rest of the world in deeper ways, thus, you can realize that your behavior/desires go in one direction, and that direction points to "being more simmilar to a girl than to a boy"
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>>8724117
Realizing not every guy wished they were a girl blew my mind. I assumed it was normal for years.
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>>8724142
How did it affect you? Why did you realize?
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>>8723911
>>8723958
+ Generally in healthy kids ToM and gender identity tend to develop around the same age
From a personal experience - the first time I was misgendered it came as a huge shock to me because I assumed that everyone knows what gender I have and how I look naked - I couldn't wrap my head around it and figure out how to replicate the experience and tie it to factors like lack of pronoun using adults (was alone in a toy store while my mom was shopping) - they didn't seem relevant because so far all the people I've seen magically agreed on what gender I am - it was just a mindfuck with no sense at all and I didn't get it until I recalled the memory much later - desu I wonder if getting the realization that you can just change your gender before my brain was prepared to process it fucked up my future gender identity
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>>8723723

>Theory of mind starts showing at 3 in healthy kids

Being able to predict wheter a different person will know if there are candies in a box (age 4 minimum) is a very basic and crude skill compared to the deep processing that requires the DSM-V symptom saying "The person acknowledges that its thought and feeling patterns are more simmilar to those of the desired gender".

A fully developed ToM takes at least 7y.o., and that'd be the most intelligent kids.

There's a reason why most earlier HSTS ask for treatment in the 13-16 arch, and I'm talking about the "early birds" here...

>As I said, it's not only about having a ToM, it's also having some life experience ;^)

That's why I keep saying, "knowing you were a girl since 4" is a very rare thing, and it probably takes informed parents who got worried after seeing their child playing with girls and girls' toys and having a deep talk or two with a kid that doesn't even know what a vagina is

>because at 4 most AMAB kids don't fucking know what a vagina is, how can they desire having a thing they don't fucking know?
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>>8714288

>a few people on 4chan who claimed that they experienced no dysphoria, didn't identify as women, transitioned because it was their fetish and basically went on to be normie girls.

>These people sounded happy but I'm not convinced they're trans in the same way dysphoric AGPs are.

Huh, interesting observation. Very interesting. I think you're onto something here. You've pulled a veeery interesting string here.
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>>8724142

>Realizing not every guy wished they were a girl blew my mind. I assumed it was normal for years.

This realization is a common step in the development of dysphoria, happent to me in my questioning phase. I just thought many people asked themselves that question but didn't have the huge needto do it... then realized most people doesn't even ask themselves that question at all.

> because I assumed that everyone knows what gender I have and how I look naked

laking a theory of the mind here

>and tie it to factors like lack of pronoun using adults

language is a communication form, and social contact is a great source of self-knowledge

>and I didn't get it until I recalled the memory much later

Happent to me too, when I realized I was trans I couldn't pinpoint the origins of it, then slowly some memories started to creep back from oblivion. Nowadays I ask myself how I didn't see it coming way sooner

> I wonder if getting the realization that you can just change your gender before my brain was prepared to process it fucked up my future gender identity

Lol, most trans individuals, wheter HSTS or AGP start feeling REALLY dysphoric after the realization they can change their gender. It has been my experience that I could repress more easily when I thought I didn't qualify as a trans because I didn't fit the traditional narrative point by point (namely, didn't tell my parents I was a girl when I was 4, lol). I call it "the epiphany". And once the geenie is out of the bottle, it's impossible to get it back inside...
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>>8724280
>Lol, most trans individuals, wheter HSTS or AGP start feeling REALLY dysphoric after the realization they can change their gender. It has been my experience that I could repress more easily when I thought I didn't qualify as a trans because I didn't fit the traditional narrative point by point (namely, didn't tell my parents I was a girl when I was 4, lol). I call it "the epiphany". And once the geenie is out of the bottle, it's impossible to get it back inside...

Oh christ dont I know it. I knew I was AGP but I also viewed AGPs as deluded freaks. Then one day at 30 I had a dysphoria attack and I've been awake ever sense. Thing is, I've been dealing with AGP issues for 2/3rds of my life but I was able to ignore it more when younger. Thing is I dont feel like a guy with AGP, I feel like a woman living a lie. I felt more like a guy when younger, AGP seems to have eaten my identity. I know thats delusional but I cant help it.
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>>8713948
AGP is a meme who would have thought?




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