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Hey, /m/. Ghost in the Shell was something that I sometimes caught on adult swim when I was a kid and could barely register what I was seeing. It always filled me with a very eerie loneliness, especially the opening for S.A.C. Now that I'm older, I feel I can appreciate it more considering what I've heard of the series and my newfound interest in Cyberpunk after watching Blade Runner. Only problem is: I don't know where to actually start. I know there are some movies and about 2 or three shows, but I couldn't find anything that put them in chronological order so I was hoping someone could help me with that.

I'd also like to know what exactly I'm getting into. Part of the fun in absorbing a new media is talking with people who've already experienced it. So what did you think of the show, /m/? Is it overrated or aptly labeled a classic? I assume it's not too afraid to actually be dry and heavily analytical of its setting and premise, so how far into the rabbit hole does it go? After sitting through all of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, I feel I won't have as much a problem with this as some, but I'd like to know how most other fans found it.
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>>16251782
Well SAC is a separate story not connected to the first film or its equal innocence. You could also watch the newer one Arise, but it is pretty lackluster.
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>>16251788
It’s sequel Innocence. Jesus auto correct is fucking with me today.
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>>16251782
Watch the 1995 movie, it's a masterpiece. Then watch SAC if you want a more lighthearted show, but still good. Avoid the rest
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>>16251812
How come? Any particular reason why?
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I saw GITS in the following order: first mamoru oshii's movies, then the SAC and SAC 2nd gig, then the SAC movie (solid state society), then i decided to read the manga because i heard arise was far more different, and finally arise and the arise movie (GITS the new movie 2015). I liked it that way, and it made me even like arise but i can't write much about it without spoiling it. I didn't decide to watch oshii's movies first, they were the only GITS thing you could find by that time, but i think it was their spectacularity and great production and direction values, and deepness that actually pulled me in to watch the rest, so i give them a lot of the credit not only within the GITS franchise, but in bringing anime as a serious media for entertainment out of japan. You really need to read the manga to appreciate what every animated iteration did with the original material, because for instance, arise is by far the closest to an actual prequel to the manga, but oshii's movies are the only ones that engage the puppet master arc, wich is the most important story in the manga, and SAC is the one that "gets the Major spot on", besides following the manga dynamics of a prodcedural case by case detective show. I recommend you, again, don't skip the manga, there's a lot of material they don't use in the animations, arise has a lot going for it, and if you have some time, read appleseed too, it's the manga masamune shirow did before GITS and there is also a lot of it is the SAC series, and i mean A LOT, so much it made me re-watch the whole franchise only to confirm i wasn't seing visions. And Appleseed also has many scifi and cyberpunk elements that evolved into GITS (while actually Appleseed is set in the same universe as the GITS manga, but 100 years later). I hope i got you interested and you enjoy it however you watch it.
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>>16251782
The manga, SAC and the film are all different continuities and are all 10/10 as far as I am concerned. They all have different primary strengths, For SAC it is the plot, for the film it is the animation and evocative atmosphere, and for the manga it is the world building and cyberpunk concepts. Dive in where ever you are most interested in first.
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>>16251863
Thanks man, I really appreciate it and got me looking forward to it, even if it is a lot to tackle.
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>>16251782
The manga, 1995 movie, and TV series are great in their own ways and are each in their own separate continuities. The manga and TV series are more lighthearted than the 1995 movie (though they're pretty dark and serious when they need to be), while the 1995 movie is mostly serious throughout. The movie's sequel, Innocence, gets a little too crazy with its philosophizing; it's basically "Batou quotes philosophy: The Movie". Arise is pretty hit or miss, it's not the worst thing you'll ever watch but it's easily the weakest of the animated entries.
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>>16251889 By the way, the GITS manga is divided in 3, Ghost in the shell, Ghost in the shell 1.5 Human Error processor, and Ghost in the shell 2.0 Man/Machine Interface, they are all part of the story
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>>16251830
No reason, he just has shit taste, read the manga
>>16251812
>95 movie
>masterpiece
wow that's disrespectful both to Oshii and Shirow
eat a dong

>>16251782
Each installment of GitS is a separate chronology

>>16251887
>for the manga it is the world building and cyberpunk concepts.
and the artstyle and the humor and the characterization and the sex appeal
>>16251889
you don't absolutely have to read Human Error Processor and Man-machine Interface, they're both unfinished. Human-Error Processor isn't quite as good as the first manga, and Man-Machine Interface is a complete fucking mess.

Also, it's important that you keep in mind, for the manga and possibly for the movie, that in GitS, ghosts and spirits and psychic powers are real. That might help you make sense of a lot of stuff.


And there's also the cutscenes of the PS1 game that you can watch if you want to see an animated version that's very close to the manga. But it's only a few minutes' worth of material
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>>16251971
What's wrong with the movie?
>inb4 not muh major
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>>16251976
man, something I remember from the DVD interviews was that the Major's movement is always vertical; rising and or falling.

Good god, that was about 15 years ago.
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>>16251976
Lack of character development leading to lack of dramatic stakes past the point where the mystery is solved. And after that point the protags no longer have agency anyway.
In the present case, "not muh major" is a valid criticism because either Oshii wanted us to find her foolish and unlikable, or he just couldn't be assed to develop her further. Same could be said of Batou, neither are a valid alternative to their manga counterparts.
As a result of that, the super majestic visual direction makes it appear pretentious when you see that there isn't that much going into the story despite what the visuals can lead you to think. Tonal confusion.

It's just not as good as some of Oshii's other films like Angel's Egg, so calling it Oshii's masterpiece is unfair.
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>>16251997
Not literally, it's more that the whole movie is full of giant vertiginous perspectives to make you feel uncomfortable and scared.
It's a pretty straightforward way to build atmosphere.
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>>16251976
.. is she doing that naked?
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>>16252044
Skintight invisiblity suit, also she's pretty much a mannequin.
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>>16252044
No.
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>>16252044
Motoko has no sense of common decency!

She is an exhibitionistic weirdo who likes walking around half-naked in public with her optic camo (occasionally) turned on so that she doesn't get caught.

A lewd pumpkin is what she is.
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>>16252057
What an absolute disgrace.
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>>16252066
Tell me about it.
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>>16252094
Who even is that random bitch?

What the fuck is that gun?

Why is everything teal?
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>>16252110
Idk, but it looks like she is putting more heart into whatever roll she is playing than Scarjo ever has.
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>>16252124
True enough.

But if there's one thing Scarjo is really good at, it's portraying the mild annoyance and disheartening boredom of having to wait several weeks until you get your next paycheck. When she's allowed to play to that specific strength with an appropriate role (see: Hail Caesar) she's a lot better than usual.
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>>16251782
I also only caught the show irregularly (during high school), so when I went back to it as an adult, my understanding of what it represented as a narrative had changed. My fascination with it as, "Technologically-advanced Japan thing with VR and girls and guns and stuff, the future is awesome!" lightpunk was shattered as I came to realize how harrowing the GITS world really was, how ambiguously progressive its technological progress had turned out to be, and how morally grey - bordering on dark - was Section 9's work. I think I appreciate it less as representative of the future I want to come some day, and more as a sobering cross-section of current and coming questions of existence, akin to (but lighter than) 1984.

But I consider listening to Inner Universe a religious experience. Truly. And while the CG has aged, I still think it embodies the aesthetics of that future I thought might be coming one day, perfectly.
>Never will I look away from what life has left for me.
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>>16251971
You should be playing the PS1 game, not just watching the cutscenes. It's one of the best games on the system and has a sick soundtrack. The PS2 SAC game is pretty okay too.
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Reminder that Origa is dead ;_;
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>>16252144
Yeah it's pretty sad and dark innit?
Aramaki is the only unambiguously, proactively good person in the whole fucking world. There's some other guys like Togusa and Batou who are good guys but they often lack the willpower and forethought to actually make a change. Good thing based Apeface is around.
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>>16252152
whotever
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>>16252147
>It's one of the best games on the system
Ace Combat 3 is the better GiTS game
>>16252164
rude
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>>16252170
AC2 > AC3
fight me homo
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>>16252172
They're both good
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>>16252173
Can't argue with that, you win this time fagboy
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>>16251971
What would happen if one were to rub those three Motokos against one another?
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>>16251971
I'm also pretty new to Gits, at this point I've only seen the shows, but were psychic powers ever shown and I glossed it over, or did it show up somewhere else?
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Is it weird if I'm more attracted to the movie's autistic windbreaker wearing Motoko than any other Motoko?
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>>16252161
I was coming more from the perspective of, "Section 9 is principally concerned with Japan's national interests and it doesn't matter what your motives are; if you cross them you're dead." That's disturbing enough a hypothetical notion to me as an American. Then add in the fact that the cold logic of their nationalism exists in real life on my side and others', necessitated in part, recursively, by its existence on my side and others'.

Almost all of the characters are personally amiable. Almost all of them will kill you in a second if that's what's necessary to protect themselves or secure their mission objectives, for the good of country. In my last job, I met people like that. It causes no small amount of cognitive dissonance. I'm still not comfortable with it, but GITS gave me a perspective on it that was helpful.
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>>16252209
In the manga, especially in MMI

And it also explains the puppetmaster's body-hopping powers in the movie.
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>>16252220
A little, yeah.

>>16252221
S9 isn't THAT big on patriotism, they're more Aramaki's private army and he tries to use them to get rid of corrupt assholes but since he's still beholden to the prime minister they gotta work for Japan's best interests at the end of the day.
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>>16252015
I mean her action scenes, the director for SAC was told to try to keep that theme for the major.
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>>16252220
Why wouldn't you be? She's a consummate professional, has hobbies, and is still built like a brick shit house.

SAC Motoko juts kinda lounges around striking poses to get a rise out of Batou
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>>16252266
oh for SAC you mean.
good thing he was told to AT LEAST keep that visual motif from the movie.

Shame he HAD to be told to do that

>>16252272
Because mangatoko is sexier, cuter, more interesting and less autistic, that's why.

Also movietoko isn't much of a professional and her hobbies seem to involve attempting suicide rather than having fun. Hanging out with her would be a total chore, she'd just stand around gazing into the distance doing nothing and would occasionally bore you with some self-introspective nonsense she should have figured out ages ago. And then you'd have to save her cause she almost killed herself for no reason and she wouldn't even thank you.
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>>16252288
>she'd just stand around gazing into the distance doing nothing and would occasionally bore you with some self-introspective nonsense she should have figured out ages ago. And then you'd have to save her cause she almost killed herself for no reason and she wouldn't even thank you
Sounds like my ideal woman desu
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>>16252538
laaaame

Any sensible man would prefer bingewatching kung fu movies with a loud, drunken Motoko
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>>16252538
Bro, it ain't worth it. She'll probably be down for anything, but dealing with a depressed, emotionally detached woman can only end in tears.

>>16252595
Also this.
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>>16252710
Why is that Motoko looking so mischievous in spite of her formal attire?

Better watch out, I think she's up to no good.
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>>16252897
Don't be silly. She clearly only has the best interests of the public in mind.
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>>16252252
That's even more terrifying desu. Imagine that there was a paramilitary organization that had carte blanche to do whatever the director wanted on the assumption that he was working in the national interest, up to and including murder.
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Movietoko is not the same as in most part of the manga, but it is pretty much like motoko after the puppertmaster got into her in the manga, and before they fused together, let's remember mangatoko's expression of listening to your ghost didn't exist before the puppetmaster inadvertedly got into her, and she started listening voices, wich eventally got her running for her life. Also in SAC she turns dense and secretive in the darkest situations. I guess it's just one of these things Oshii had to let out of the movie bc of time issues, just like, for example, and one of the most bothering things i have ever heard, some ppl thinks motoko doesnt' know her origin because it's not mentioned in Oshii's movie, wich is the most known GITS material, and they even went on to turn that into a big budget live action movie.... what an homage!
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>>16251782
I`ll strongly recommend Stand Alone Complex to you since it has the most depth to it. The original movie`s worth watching for the visuals,but not much else.
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>>16252288
I myself`d prefer SACtoko since she`s lively,fun and energetic yet has a semblance of actual maturity. Also she'd be interesting to talk to since she has so many interesting experiences of hers to share.As well as that one can discuss military science,history and philosophy and art with her too. And she`s the prettiest of the bunch too.
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>>16252897
She looks like she`s wondering if she can fist someone`s ass with that stun glove.
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>>16254265
I thought it was Batou who doesn't remember his origin in the Oshiiverse.

Motoko probably remembers hers, it's just that it's never shown, which is a waste of a good opportunity to develop her character, so when we see her doubt it, she sounds a little silly because why the fuck would someone give her false memories in the first place? The live-action movie tried to give an answer to that question, and it made zero fucking sense.
I appreciate their attempt to give her more characterization through a backstory but it backfired like crazy.

>>16254290
>lively,fun and energetic
Not really. I mean she has more guts than in the movie and she's not quite as stiff but she's still a total bore compared to mangatoko and she barely emotes. She certainly has more conversation though.
But prettiest? HHHHHELL no, she looks less cute than mangatoko and less elegant than movietoko.
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>>16254276
>GitS
>depth
>people still think it's anything more than a mediocre setting for good ol' fashioned, dumb-fun action
>2018
ISHYGDDT
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>>16254293
She's a cyborg; she can force that stun glove anywhere, regardless if the other person is willing.
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>>16252094
Nothing says "sci fi, futuristic" like half-assed props!
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>>16254551
but it really activates my almonds, see how clever it is?

>>16254556
And it also means she can withstand any amount of fisting. Good thing she's into that.
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>>16254567
all they had to do was copy the designs from the manga and the movie
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>>16254571
See, this is just asking for too much! I mean, where the hell are they going to find a manufacturer who'd be willing, or even capable of, making GitS-style gun props?
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>>16254605
But dude, who will pay that one vidya concept art guy to design ugly vehicles and weapons and costumes now that cawadoody is doing WW2 again?

>>16254567
Oh yeah, can't forget about the "practical effects" too, those were so cool.
Both of them.
In a massive greenscreen fest.
Cause nothing says "real craftsmanship" and "old school props design" like massive CGI wankery.
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>>16254636
Aaron Beck didn't work on GiTS 2017, some retarded Eastern Euro deviantart reject did.
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>>16254901
my bad, their shit looks the same
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>>16254949
Nah, I actually like Aaron Beck's mech and firearm designs, they strike that sweet spot between scifi craziness and utilitarianism. Meanwhile this guy thought that putting some Home Depot storage shelving on an SMG and slapping a hardshell taco around an Uzi was good enough.
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>>16254989
but anon it's "retro futuristic" and stuff, like in neuromancer, right?
nerds like 80s designs and 80s designs all looked like shhhhhhit, so if we make all our designs look like shit, the nerds will eat it up!
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>>16254999
>people who think 80s designs all looked like shhhhhhi
truly these people are worse than hitler
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>>16255004
Good on you for not masturbating to Ian's videos like he's the word of God.
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>>16255008
who?
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>>16254551
The social commentary in Stand Alone Complex hits scarily close to home,in my opinion.
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>>16255362
it's certainly more insightful than Motoko's preachy comments in the manga but being relevant isn't the same thing as being deep. At least it's not straight-up retarded like Psycho Pass.
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>>16255368
It exposes problem after problem after problem of contempoprary society and predicts many issues that still had not appeared at the time of its' making. When I first watched it,it really moved me.
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>>16254524
>Motoko probably remembers hers, it's just that it's never shown, which is a waste of a good opportunity to develop her character, so when we see her doubt it, she sounds a little silly because why the fuck would someone give her false memories in the first place?

I see this get misunderstood a lot, so I think it's worth noting it's just an analogy for how she feels about her life up to that point. It's no different than how you might feel about the person you are now versus who you were five or ten years ago, just explained in a really vague way.

As an aside, isn't it amazing how a small joke in the original manga managed to dominate the plot of the adaptations?

>Dissing SAC Motoko
I mean, to each their own, but I certainly rank her so lowly. You can't really compare Motoko's personalities across different installments, let alone her looks. They're all suited to her role in those stories.

>>16254605
>>16254901
Oh, great. Thanks for reminding me what they did to Togusa's Mateba revolver.

>The one firearm that's consistently named across every iteration
>"Let's just give him a Rhino. It's only onscreen for 2 seconds anyway "

If that's not a perfect encapsulation of the thought process behind the movie, I don't know what is.
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>>16255484
>It's no different than how you might feel about the person you are now versus who you were five or ten years ago
It's actually very different because, weren't it for the spiritualist supernatural elements of GitS, Motoko really isn't the girl she was 15 years ago, she's a machine with a brain in it, she's already lost her identity. And that's exactly how the puppetmaster tries to convince her that she's got nothing to lose.

Not that it matter anyway because then she gets brainfucked regardless.

>As an aside, isn't it amazing how a small joke in the original manga managed to dominate the plot of the adaptations?
Not really surprising considering that Blade Runner already made a big deal of it.
But I do find it kind of sad, because they never managed to develop that theme in a really satisfying manner (at least not through Motoko alone), and sometimes they focused on it at the expense of other aspects of Motoko and the source material.

>You can't really compare Motoko's personalities across different installments, let alone her looks. They're all suited to her role in those stories.
Yes I can, and I have. Mangatoko is sexier and cuter and better-dressed, movietoko has more elegant features, and SACtoko just has a sluttier basic outfit. In terms of appearance the hierarchy is quite clear unless you have a massive fetish for post-punk posturing or the color purple. And in terms of personality, they can easily be compared because they simply don't have the same quantitative amount of personality traits. Mangatoko quite literally has the most personality, followed by SACtoko and then movietoko. Whether you prefer her to have more or less personality is a different issue.

And none of them are perfectly suited to their role in their respective stories, they're either too detached or too underdeveloped or too static for their respective stories to reach their full dramatic or thematic potential. Luckily there are other characters in there to make it work.
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>>16255371
Apparently a lot of that stuff hadn't happened in Western society yet, but with Japan's ubiquitous access to the internet via their cell phones starting in the late 90s, they were already in the thick of the meme-ry. So a lot of the things from early 2000s anime that seem super-prescient to mid-2010s Americans were actually just things the Japanese were already dealing with at the time.

Still, that doesn't apply to everything in GITS, and it was reasonably, scarily on the mark about a ton of stuff it had no right being on the mark about.

I kind of miss the aesthetic-as-fuck but completely non-functional way they imagined VR and the internet was going to be, instead of what it turned into.
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>>16255845
I kind of miss the aesthetic-as-fuck but completely non-functional way they imagined VR and the internet was going to be, instead of what it turned into.
that stuff had been going on since the early 80s, though.
Ironically, the Lawnmower Man's VR visuals turned out to be more accurate than SAC's.
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>>16255845
I miss the whole futuristic early 00s aesthetic as a whole to be honest.
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>>16255845
What sort of stuff do you think it touched on that weren't memes though? I`m kinda curious.
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>>16255933
The central plot of 2nd Gig being scarily close to current immigration/refugee situation in the US and Europe, for instance. More so, the way the main villain uses the crisis to carry out his plans.
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>>16255919
I sure as fuck don't
it never really went away anyway
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>>16256236
the topic of immigration was ok, specially because it proves the GITS world is not that "world without races and racism" and where anyone can just be whatever they want, there are the sam problems as today but somehow intensified by technology that supassed the laws and goverments' capabilities. But i hate how they diluted the topic of the posibility of an entirely digital ghost, part of it in the end of 2nd Gig, part in the SAC SSD movie, but nothing as dramatic as the Puppetmaster, because in many ways the ultimate destiny of Motoko is tied to that, as undetermied as it is in the manga.
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>>16256770
The Puppetmaster isn't "entirely digital", it's spiritual.
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>>16256770
Yeah, I think the entire last arc felt pretty tacked on. I think 2nd Gig as a whole is pretty muddled, even despite it's newfound relevancy. The Stand Alone episodes are a lot more memorable, at least to me.
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>>16255008

Voice of god, no, but thankful for some of the interesting stuff I'd never have seen in such detail without him.
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>>16256796 Precisely the Puppetmaster blurs the line between soul and code, before him, the only existing souls were those born human, be it in human or cybernetic bodies, he is the first soul that was not born a human and was not limited by biology. Remember the scanners pointed out that there was "ghost activity" inside the Puppetmaster's brain even when there was no real brain inside, wich was still an impossibility in that world, and being able to detect a ghost doesn't imply they can create one (we can register earthquakes but we cannot control them or fabricate them at will). So basically yes, the Puppetmaster was spiritual but it does not mean he was not entirely digital, it makes no difference from the point of view of humans, or even cyborgs, with their limitations and mortality, imho.
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>>16251782
Make sure you play the PS1 game, if only for the music, but the wall-crawling gameplay is great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYt-P7yJ1k
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>>16258696
>being able to detect a ghost doesn't imply they can create one
They can copy them, but there's degredation. Puppetmaster's ghost was unique in that it seemed to be a lossless copy.
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>>16251782
It's a masterpiece in the typical Oshii sense, that means a lot of scenery porn and slow establishing shots plus taking the whole philosophical aspect of GitS and cranking it up to 11. I've met some people who liked it, and some plebs who didn't, but it does sacrifice some of the manga's goofiness.

Stand Alone Complex is probably one of the best TV anime series ever made, and that's spoken fully objectively. A metric fuckload of money had been dumped into it which really shows with great CG usage and minimal QUALITY-tier jank. Tonally it's a sweet spot between the movie and the manga, has some comedic elements but the characters are mostly very serious, Oshii's meandering philosophical bullshit had been replaced (not completely, mind you) with what's essentially a political drama, referencing various literary works and building a more professional image of Section 9, which I personally loved. Another advantage of this being a TV series with two separate seasons and a movie is that you can actually see Section 9 evolving as an organization and growing larger the further you go in, there's also a lot of episodes which don't focus on the overall main plotline of each season and actually adapt some manga scenarios to flesh out the setting further.

ARISE - I didn't give a fuck. Personally I'm hyped for the future since Kamiyama's involved with a new GitS project alongside Production IG, which could mean more Stand Alone.
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>>16258913
>I didn't give a fuck
Does that mean you just didn't like it or never watched it?
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>>16258913
>ARISE - I didn't give a fuck. Personally I'm hyped for the future since Kamiyama's involved with a new GitS project alongside Production IG, which could mean more Stand Alone.

Ooooooh shit. Link on that heat?
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>>16259079
Never watched it. The premise of a really young Major in a world like GitS and it being executed in the way shown in all of the PVs and all seems fucking retarded.

>>16259101
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-04-06/ghost-in-the-shell-gets-new-anime-from-kenji-kamiyama-shinji-aramaki/.114481
It's pretty old news, suprised people don't know about it. I doubt it's actually going to be more Stand Alone Complex, but with Kamiyama co-directing it can't be too bad.
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>>16259138

Eh. I'm finishing up a doctorate so free time is a fucking ghost. I miss ALL
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>>16259138
She's not that young in Arise and she's still a war vet.
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>>16258913
It's seriously insane how well SAC holds up visually considering it's a relatively early digital anime. I think it might have been animated a higher resolution too, the Blu-rays look a lot better than your typical 480p upscale.
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>>16258904
Not a copy, the same individual being

The puppetmaster explicitly chooses not to copy itself, it literally hops from one computer to the next.

>>16258696
>the Puppetmaster was spiritual but it does not mean he was not entirely digital
Actually it does, if it wasn't a spiritual substance on top of being an electronic pattern (and a computer/robot depending on what it's possessing) it wouldn't be able to do all that stuff.

>>16258913
>plus taking the whole philosophical aspect of GitS and cranking it up to 11
It's actually quite light on the philosophy aspect compared to the manga. It just tries to salvage as much philosophical content as possible but due to its shorter format, it's forced to cut corners.

Now Innocence on the other hand does try to shoehorn extra philosophy into the dialog and it's a fucking mess as a result.
>Stand Alone Complex is probably one of the best TV anime series ever made, and that's spoken fully objectively.
No it's fucking not, the direction is crude except during the action scenes, the color design and photography are ugly, the character designs are super bland, it's dull, it still relies way too much on dialog, and it's most definitely NOT
>a sweet spot between the movie and the manga
it's actually the worst of both worlds: it lacks both humor and gravitas. It lacks many many things that the movie or the manga had. It does have a much more solid plot than either, though.

If anime began and ended in the 2000s I might have agreed, but if you think SAC isn't worse than the manga and the movie you're on crack.
>>
>>16259405
It still doesn't hold up too well.
I mean sure it doesn't look like absolute trash like most shows that came out around the same time but visually it still gets blown out of the water by Ergo Proxy, for example. Now that's a series that really holds up visually.
>>
QUESTION: how would each Motoko react to headpattenings?
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>>16256236
>mfw no one`s trying to nuke the refugees in our timeline
Feels bad man.
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>>16259773
police brutality, of course
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>>16259837
Movietoko`s too apathetic to resort to police brutality immediately though.
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>>16259848
so would she quietly endure headpats?

Would she enjoy it?
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>>16259773
Manga - Bitches you out, then mockingly returns the favor later on
Movie - Questions what you think you're thinking, but doesn't make any real attempt to stop you.
SAC - Plays it off while still finding a way to grill you over how condescending she finds it
Arise - Bitches you out, but probably secretly enjoys it.

>>16259870
Most likely.
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>>16259876
>Questions what you think you're thinking
really makes you think, innit?
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>>16259882
I think this is one of the few times a typo makes a statement more valid.
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>>16251782
You should watch the '95 film, Innocence, and SAC, and read the manga trilogy. End of story.
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>>16252012
You're a fucking retard.

The entire movie focuses on the Major's contemplations of her own existence, and culminates with the most intense fucking motivation of a character in any movie ever fucking made (prove me wrong: you can't).

I'm fucking losing brain cells knowing that you're going to read this and come up with more hot ass gas to recycle back into your lungs before you respond.
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>>16251971
> ghosts and spirits and psychic powers are real
Hey, you must know the Chief!
Could you show me how to hack computers good and such, you autist?
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>>16260078
Nigga are you fucking serious?
How does any of that even contradict anything I said?

You're gonna have to develop your bullshit a little more if you want me to take you seriously.
>>
>>16252220
She's not fucking autistic. Are you autistic?
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>>16252288
Holy fuck, the entire thread is just you repeatedly spouting this massive autistic reading of a piece you can't fucking grasp.
Scene 1: She murders someone, playfully fucking with the people who witness the murder, demonstrating power with a subtle expression on her face.
Scene 2: She sense's Togusa's lack of confidence in his own abilities, and consoles him.
Scene 3: She acknowledges her position of power over Togusa by commanding him ("If you're still alive...")

I'm not even ten fucking minutes into the movie, and she's already demonstrably not autistic.
The fact that you can't see this as a complex character shows that YOU are the autist. Holy fuck.
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>>16260092
There's even tanuki and stuff roaming around the world but you can't see them unless you've got ESP.
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>>16254265
No one fucking thinks she doesn't know her origins. The motherfucking beginning of the movie is her synthesis.
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>>16254276
Ghost in the Shell (1995) contains themes regarding how the creations of Humans can surpass Humanity in many ways, and opens the can of worms for the audience to contemplate while the primary character has to directly deal with this in her own way.
The imagery of the film is leading you to the real facts of the narrative: Humanity doesn't need computers or AI to create things it can't cope with and control on the individual level. We call it society (and, in its current form, capital).

Fuck you for not taking the time to figure this out for yourself. SAC has some nice themes, but the movie is a motherfucking masterpiece.
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>>16260102
>>16260097

>thinks people on 4chan literally mean "autistic" as in "autistic" rather than "inexpressive and self-absorbed"
>actually gets mad about it
>relates random posts to that issue just so he can get mad at more people

wew lad

don't get your autism in a bunch
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>>16260108
yep, her self-doubt is a little hard to take seriously considering that we saw her brain.
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>>16260114
What the fuck are you on? SAC delves way deeper into all of that, and the movie doesn't even bother with "capital".

Are you sure you've watched the movie?
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>>16259637
>It's actually quite light on the philosophy aspect
Holy fuck just stop posting, why did I think you would have already been fucking banned for spreading cancer
Your opinion isn't fact, you're fucking trash, die
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>>16260102
>>16260114
>>16260142

>2deep4u
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>>16260096
The entire fucking movie is a character's development. You're just too fucking spoonfed by other media to understand that you have to interact with a piece in order to fucking understand it on a human level.
You're one of those kids who inspired 80s anime to have roll-call scenes, aren't you?
>>16260119
>thinks that people on 4chan literally mean "autistic" as in "inexpressive and self-absorbed" instead of "autistic"
Even if we ignore the fact that you're fucking autistic, you're so retarded that you can't realize that those two things mean the same thing, literally, and you're trying to create a false dichotomy
Go huff young cunt on discord, you 14 year old memeposter
>>16260138
The movie shows a fucking city full of capitalism. There are workers, employers, and the state. You're fucking deluded. Yes, it goes deeper than that. Perhaps this is why I said it CONTAINS the themes, not IS COMPOSED SOLELY OF, Donkey Wrong.
>>16260144
Yes, it's probably a bit too fucking deep for an avatarfag.
Take your reaction images back to 9gag.
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>>16260138
To clarify, in case you're just drunk and not completely pants on head retarded:
Society _is_ capitalism. Society is also composed of capital. The movie can serve as an encapsulation of the modern movement, which is that we are now, on the whole, not just in single instances, grappling with a blind, dumb God that was always there, which we created, as a result of realizing that we had also become blind, dumb Gods.
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>>16251976
It's the typical /m/ retardation. You'd best ignore it. Just saying this for next time, since it's too late now.
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>>16252221
>it's a brainlet discovers that GITS espouses a right wing view on politics episode
Hilarious.
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>>16252221
lol getting worked the fuck up over Cop Drama The Japanese Cartoon
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>>16260153
so uh
let's clarify a few things

Are you saying that 45 minutes of "wow, am I really myself even though I'm pretty much a robot?" count as significant character development?

Are you saying that she isn't inexpressive and self-absorbed?

Are you saying that mannequins are an allegory for capitalism instead of a shorthand for robots?

Or are you saying that the movie is about how capitalism will fuck you up because it's got people who have a job in it?

and finally

Are you saying that those elements are a deeper exploration of how capitalism will fuck you up than all of SAC?
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>>16260159
That's fine and dandy, typical cyberpunk theme, that were exposed in a much more explicit way in the manga, but how exactly does that make Oshii's movie "a masterpiece"?
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>->16260187
Please stop giving this retard (you)s. You're wasting your time. Just ignore him. I'm directing this at the guy he's replying to especially.
Bringing Deleuze&Guattari's/Nick Land's views on capitalism is a largely pointless tangent, and it will go over this guy's head anyway.

Make a thread on /lit/ instead.
/m/ is a really braindead board.
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>>16260187
She doesn't fucking say any of that whatsoever, and that's not what the fucking composition of that part of the film is
You're so fucking clearly a fan of the 2017 film that you need to rework this fucking attention ponzi scheme you've got running here

She's not self-absorbed. Your parents mistaking your head being up your ass for introvertedness does not justify your massively reversed interpretation of human emotions and characteristics

You're being given someone's fucking heart on a cinematic platter, and you can't warm-read it if it fucking melded with your goddamned consciousness for the sake of gifting you the catharsis of death.

You know you should suicide when your basic attempts to understand someone's positions always results in you creating a shitty, retarded strawman.

Fucking give me a way to talk with you over voice so I can confirm how often you breathe through your goddamned mouth
>>16260191
Because it does what the manga did in volumes in two hours. The manga can't fucking animate the Major's emotions that come out in the climax, period. The use of mass in that fucking scene is, ON ITS OWN, a masterpiece.
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>>16260197
I don't think you understand how long I've been staring into the abyss. One of the primary reasons I have to engage with their retardation is because I'm too close to being that retarded myself.
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>>16260203
Actually the manga addresses how capitalism is fucked-up with very concrete and explicit examples like child labor, instead of (if I'm reading your interpretation correctly) a vague arbitrary allegorical representation of capitalism and humanity through an abusive lesbian relationship.
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>>16260203
>she's not self-absorbed
what is she, if not self-absorbed?
The only point where she expresses emotion and concern for another human being (maybe that's the climax you'r referring to) is when she says "Batou!" right before getting brainfucked.

The rest is just her staring at herself and asking herself if she's really herself, or just doing her job as usual.
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>>16260221
It has nothing to do with the Major's relationships to individuals, and everything to do with the rest of the film as a single piece. The Major, contrasted against The City, juxtaposed with 2501 (all creations of Humanity, all with their own intricacies that Humans maintained and designed, plus the unintended consequences of those creations that went beyond design).
A piece isn't *just* the intention of the artist, either. It is part of an entire movement. The current fear of AI becoming something that dominates all of Humanity primarily emanates from those who already dominate all of Humanity, for example.
The manga had much more time to do what it could. I still have not read its entirety, but manga cannot capture the same mastery of emotion and progression that the movie absolutely did.
Additionally, I have not read enough manga to make a critical claim on how well the manga can stand against other pieces. The GitS movie stands as one of the greatest films of all time, holistically.
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>>16260228
You're braindead. All you do is look at your own opinions, see someone respond, and hurriedly scratch out your old opinion, replacing it with the exact same text, over and over, and each etching removes more fucking gray matter. You are doing nothing but rephrasing things I have already addressed. The movie is infinitely more than the Major, but you cannot fucking get over that.
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>>16260230
>mastery of emotion
oi give me a fucking break, it's Oshii going through the motions, he's already perfected that kind of storytelling and visual direction. Watch Patlabor 2, it's got all that and more.

Stop gushing over typical cyberpunk themes and new wave music video clichés. Showing hobos living in a super-expensive fully automated construction site is a better way to showcase the excesses of capitalism than one hour of general-purpose metaphors.
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>>16260255
It wasn't a movie about just-capitalism, you fucking retard. Stop fixating on the only context you're specifically given.
"OMG Oshii already did this" isn't a valid fucking argument. Firstly, I have not seen anything else by the director, and secondly, those other movies being masterpieces, if you think they are, doesn't make this one anything less of a fucking masterpiece, you shitcyclist.
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>>16260237
Well it's also the puppetmaster, but the puppetmaster in the movie is just a more evil, less explicitly mystical and less argumentative version of what it was in the manga.

>You are doing nothing but rephrasing things I have already addressed.
I'm doing so in order to show you that you're exaggerating their importance.
For example, you see the "batou!" thing and for you it somehow erases the fact that the Major is extremely self-absorbed and underdeveloped throughout the rest of the movie.
You see a general cyberpunk theme of urban decay and conformity/alienation and you automatically conclude that it's mind-blowing shit that has never been explored any deeper in the whole franchise or by other works
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>>16260266
>I have not seen anything else by the director
>>16260230
>I still have not read its entirety

uh-huh
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>>16260277
The puppetmaster is literally 0% evil in the film. You're fucking retarded.
>I'm doing so...
Because you have nothing else. Your opinion is shallow because your fucking understanding is shallow.
She is not underdeveloped whatsoever. It's a fucking movie. They have time to show you what the character is, and the character is a complex one that reveals itself throughout the film in an organic fashion--as a story SHOULD be told.
No, I did not see any bit of conformity/decay/alienation. You are still misunderstanding my fucking argument. I never brought up the scene you are claiming that I care about.
>>16260282
No need for this context.
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>>16260266
Actually I'd say that the existence of better works does devalue GitS 95 quite a bit. But most importantly, the flaws (or self-imposed limitations, if you prefer) I've mentioned do hinder it from reaching its greatest potential.

That being said I don't think GitS in general has ever reached its full potential, it always tries to be a bunch of different things at once (or tries to be less different things) and it doesn't always work
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>>16260297
"Being a bunch of different things" is the nature of Humanity and Reality. Specialization is a fucking cancer--a masturbation.
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>>16260291
The puppetmaster is pretty evil, it tries to take advantage of Motoko's existential crisis and then brainrapes her when that doesn't work.

they even emphasized that in the 2.0 version where she's got a typical anime villainess voice

>the character is complex
The character is extremely simple:
she doubts her own identity because she's artificial, and is willing to go to any length to gain any degree of insight into her own self. In doing so she neglects the only people who care about her until it's too late.
she also has a job.
Like many characters in 90s psychological thrillers, except that they usually have more backstory and expressiveness

What else is there?

I'm calling her underdeveloped because if she had been shown in a more sympathetic light, with more displays of emotion, and more backstory, her confrontation with the puppetmaster would have had a lot more weight.

>I did not see any bit of conformity/decay/alienation.
fucking seriously? You didn't see the grimy urban environments, the mangled cyborg bodies and Motoko constantly seeing identical versions of herself and eventually losing control of her own body?
That's like the whole meat of the movie's visual language

that and water, but that's an Oshii staple.

>I never brought up the scene you are claiming that I care about.
if that's not the emotional climax of the movie, what is?
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>>16260301
In that case I'm surprised you don't respect the manga a lot more (even without reading it all) because on top of psychobabble and cyberpunk social commentary, action, mystery, horror and sex appeal, it ALSO has humor, technobabble, and more explicit supernatural elements.

Even within the first two or three chapters, so clearly, length isn't the problem, Oshii just chose to emphasize the existential element at the expense of others
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>>16260301
Yeah but this is entertainment, not reality
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>>16260312
That is literally not what happens in the movie. The puppetmaster is Motoko in a nutshell: A being with no fear of imminent death, a 'perfection' in terms of feasible perfection. The Puppetmaster is literally Motoko's soulmate.
Sadly, I have yet to get the chance to watch Innocence with my viewing partner. Perhaps they go on to turn it into "oh no did the puppetmaster just trick her????" because this makes no sense to me, given the context of the film.

She is not doubting her own identity, you fucking retard. She has an extremely established identity that she does not wrestle with whatsoever. Her dominant intelligence, CHOICE to be of feminine form, and her position in life is gratifying (and this is easily stated). She takes measured risks and commands her own fate. You want to think of her as weak for 0 reasons. She is the literal opposite: Determined beyond the confinement of her tooled body (see the climax) to get what the fuck she wants.
She is not stupid. She knows what she is. She has the fucking consideration. She's not fucking _doubting_ anything.

She has a fuckload of displays of emotion. You simply don't have enough passion to sympathize, you fucking autist. Accept it so we can move the fuck on from this tired point. It's not a fucking _confrontation_.

The urban environment isn't _just_ grimy. It's not decaying. It's more than "a cyberpunk show," and it's demonstrating it in a way that is much more nuanced than you put on. You're writing it off so you don't have to use your fucking brain.

You're poisoned by your personal misreadings of the manga, trying to push what was likely more on-the-nose writing onto a show with subtlety that is executed so masterfully that, as long as you SHUT THE FUCK UP, screams at you what the true meanings and underpinnings are.

The emotional climax of the fucking movie has nothing to do with Batou, aside from him buttfucking the robot that is skullfucking Motoko. You're such a pisspoor fucking viewer.
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>>16260331
Yes, except the purpose of a masterful animated film is to explore the edges of a universe that has meaning, and meaning is only derived through an exploration of reality, you idealist nimrod.
>>16260314
There was no expense of other bits. You're focusing too much on dialogue. A film isn't only its dialogue.
>>
FACT: Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence is the best looking anime ever made, and the pinnacle of CGI animation.
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>>16260334
oh wow so you haven't watched Innocence either.

spoiler alert: in Innocence she pops up to help Batou, she's even more dehumanized than before, not much else to say about that.

>She is not doubting her own identity, you fucking retard. She has an extremely established identity that she does not wrestle with whatsoever. Her dominant intelligence, CHOICE to be of feminine form, and her position in life is gratifying (and this is easily stated). She takes measured risks and commands her own fate. You want to think of her as weak for 0 reasons. She is the literal opposite: Determined beyond the confinement of her tooled body (see the climax) to get what the fuck she wants. She is not stupid. She knows what she is. She has the fucking consideration. She's not fucking _doubting_ anything.
Are you talking about Motoko Kusanagi from the 1995 movie "Ghost in the Shell" by Mamoru Oshii?
Cause everything you just said is the opposite of what she's like. That's a lot closer to how she is in the manga

Anyway please point out those fuckloads of displays of emotion, cause apart from sounding afraid during her confrontation with the Puppetmaster (cause yeah, it's a confrontation, as you said yourself she's weakly struggling against it) I don't remember her being emotional at any point. Perhaps you mistook that lack of expressiveness for self-confidence.

>The urban environment isn't _just_ grimy.
yeah it's also pretty
as I said, typical cyberpunk imagery and new wave music video clichés

>The emotional climax of the fucking movie has nothing to do with Batou
you didn't answer my question: what IS the emotional climax of the movie?
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>>16260337
Reeeeally?
There was horror, sex appeal and action conveyed through dialog in that movie? Those weren't conveyed solely through visuals?

Anyway, what are those "other bits"?
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>>16260356
wrong

the CG is already showing its age
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>>16260371
>everything you just said...
You have no clue what you're talking about. Go watch the movie again. I'll watch it with you. It's a fucking reat every time.

It's not a confrontation. She's seeking him out to meet with him. You're dehumanizing the puppetmaster, which shows you're not getting the point.
She's entirely emotional. You simply have yet to discover that there are more emotions than laughter and sadness.

The cyberpunk genre is properly realized in this film. Every other instance is usually shitty. You're trying to shit on cyberpunk when the manga is also fucking cyberpunk.
Watch the movie again. You'll eventually understand that it's not about your shitty attempt to grasp human relationships.

>>16260373
What are you trying to say? Yes, the horrors of your wife and kid not being fucking _real_ was conveyed through dialogue and visuals. Yes, Major's manner of speaking is sexy. Yes, the active moments in the beginning are well-complemented by dialogue.

What are you trying to claim? Everyone here needs to rewatch the film.
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>>16260381
I just rewatched it last year, and I was blown away by it. A lot of it was actually done by Studio Ghibli.
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>>16260388
>she's entirely emotional
I agree, but she doesn't display those emotions (which are angst and curiosity) it's just that her dialog, and the scene direction itself, betray those emotions IN SPITE of her lack of expressiveness. And if she showed us some sadness and laughter perhaps she wouldn't come off as autistic and ultimately disposable.

Cause that's what she's angsty about: she knows that, her skills nonwithstanding, she's basically disposable and that everything about her can be easily replicated or altered. And maybe if we saw her backstory, or saw her having fun with Batou, there would be room to doubt that, there'd be something more to her.

>dehumanizing the puppetmaster
I didn't say it was inhuman (it is, by the way) I just said it was evil. It's a parasitic ghost that brainwashes people and disregards individual identity.

I'm not shitting on cyberpunk i'm just trying to make you understand that what you're gushing over really isn't special, because that
>Every other instance is usually shitty
is wrong
>What are you trying to say? Yes, the horrors of your wife and kid not being fucking _real_ was conveyed through dialogue and visuals. Yes, Major's manner of speaking is sexy. Yes, the active moments in the beginning are well-complemented by dialogue.
alright, fair enough
That still proves I wasn't focusing on the dialog
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>>16260389
eh, it really depends on the scene

last time I watched it (must have been six years ago) I remember a lot of the CG looking rather subpar by recent standards. The opening especially
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>>16260415
They are not "in spite" of. Humans are allowed to say things in complex and subtle manners: It is YOUR JOB, as the person interest, to listen. This is where your autism is strongest: You want to be handed their subtlety in the form of a fist up your ass.
She is not fucking angsty that she's disposable. She's contemplating all existence. You're either pulling shit out of your ass, or you're navel-gazing too hard. You're projecting the fuck out of this movie. Go watch it again.
The puppetmaster isn't a parasitic ghost. You're thinking of a different timeline.
>That still proves...
No, it doesn't prove shit for your side. You just can't admit you were fucking wrong without trying to recover ground.
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>>16261062
She's angsty as fuck, if you're too blind and deaf to realize it from the first few seconds of post-opening footage where she already comes off as world-weary and dubitative, maybe you should pay better attention. Whenever she's not focusing on her job she can't do anything but ponder upon herself because she's worried. She can't have fun, even when she's indulging in her hobby she can't stop contemplating existence and as a result of that she almost kills herself because she's in constant awe of how difficult it is to define herself as a person, which makes her too gloomy to express anything. She's mesmerized by the vague hope that there's something more to herself than just hardware and memories, because both are demonstrably replicable and therefore not essentially unique, maybe even fake. Her body may as well not be her own, and neither may her memories.

She is experiencing self-alienation. It's even made literal when the puppetmaster takes control of her body and forces her to see through its eyes. There's hardly a more obvious way to convey the idea.

I don't need any further explanations, it's already very blunt and obvious, it's not subtle, and the fact that you're failing to realize that she's going through an existential crisis is very concerning.

What I want is expressiveness, humor, I want to see some of those memories she's clinging to, and different, more intense emotions from her than just angst angst angst angst and a little smile at the very end. I want a well-rounded, likable character instead of just mopey angstcop. A character I can really care about when she's in danger of getting brainfucked.

And I don't care how well it services the overall theme of humanity and society and capitalism and technology, because that shit doesn't matter to me if I don't see a likable character getting impacted by it.


>You just can't admit you were fucking wrong
I just did, concerning that bit about horror, sex and violence through dialog.
>>
Mimi Woods' performance as movietoko is severely underrated even by dub fans
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>>16261186
Oh I really like it. I only find it slightly inferior to the original version
>>
>>16251782
Original 1995 movie > S.A.C 2nd Gig > S.A.C. > S.A.C. Stand Alone Society > GiTS Innocence > ARISE >>> Live Action
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>>16261129
She is definitely contemplative, and I like the use of dubitative, but I disagree that this is the intention. She is intended to seem heavily cognitive--something very important, because she is being directly compared here with the puppetmaster--a being consisting ONLY of contemplation.
She's not worried--she's just got enough on her mind that she's constantly thinking. This is true of her character in SAC, as well.
The result is that she becomes determined to find the truth when it poses itself to her. This is a typical masculine expression in movies, and I think you're getting caught up in previous representation of females--which is exactly why you think she's autistic. You're comparing her to dumb, non-human misrepresentations of women.
She's not concerned with spirituality. You need the context of science fiction to understand this: The theorization (explanation) of all phenomena through the eventual command of human knowledge. The mysticism of spirituality is gone, now that we know the source: Purpose.
She's not alienated from self: She's constantly fending off nihilism, just as all humans in the present day are, because she does not need the crutches of previous delusions.

The idea of existential crises as the firmament of science fiction fails to grasp existentialism. There is no crisis. Existence is a constant toil.

She's not clinging to memories. You're running a bad model in your brain and mapping it onto a work that doesn't care about useless things like that. The subtle humor that Batou expresses is enough.

I've talked with a female friend of mine about your conclusions on angst, and she's not angsty. She's thinking. She's not in danger of shit--she knows the risks, and she accepts them. After you accept danger, it's no longer danger. Perhaps you need to realize the zen in acceptance.

If you do not care about the core themes of a movie, then you need to stop trying to force other themes onto it. Go watch romcoms.
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>>16261129
Additionally, I was pointing out the fact that you DID admit you were wrong, but it hurt you so much personally that you had to then come back and say "Well, it still..."
This demonstrates that you have a hard time ever conceding. You're pulling the gamegrumps "WELL I DON'T KNOW THE CONTROLS" situation. A work of philosophy isn't to convince you: it's to explore a presupposition.
>>
Could someone tell me what the difference between the original movie and the 2.0 version from 2008 is? If I'm only gonna watch one, which should it be?
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>>16261771
There are newer-tech 3d graphics in 2.0.
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>>16261771
2.0 replaces some of the animation with embarrassingly bad CG and adds sound effects that don't sync with the action (e.g. a rotary machine gun making slow bang bang bang noises)
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>>16261500
Lay off the bullshit armchair psychology, will you?
I told you it still proved I wasn't focusing on the dialog because that's what you were wrongfully accusing me of, that's all

>>16261497
>She's not worried--she's just got enough on her mind that she's constantly thinking. This is true of her character in SAC, as well.
What does "having a lot on your mind" mean if not being worried?
>You're comparing her to dumb, non-human misrepresentations of women.
I'm comparing her to how she was in the manga and I'm comparing her to other mid-90s psychological thriller protagonists (mostly male) who do the same things because they're worried.

>She's constantly fending off nihilism, just as all humans in the present day are, because she does not need the crutches of previous delusions.
See? She's in danger of having all her beliefs shattered and she knows it and she's desperately trying to find a certainty to latch onto because she doesn't want to accept the idea that there's nothing truly unique about her, how is that not textbook angst and self-alienation?

>There is no crisis. Existence is a constant toil.
She was already looking very insecure at the very beginning of the movie, so she was already "toiling", but what's even the difference between that toil and a crisis?

>She's not clinging to memories.
She is. At least that's what the puppetmaster accuses her of. Because she's struggling against nihilism, as you said.

>The subtle humor that Batou expresses is enough.
no it's fucking not, I'd remember it, if it was sufficient

Also, your female friend is wrong, her vagina doesn't give her magical insight into the thoughts of a fictional character made up by men
>after you accept danger, it's no longer danger
that makes zero sense, and if it's portrayed at any point in the movie, it's AFTER Motoko's forced to merge with the Puppetmaster. She didn't accept it, it was forced onto her. And the resulting being felt okay, but we don't know if that was a good thing
>>
>>16261497
>>16261500

>Perhaps you need to realize the zen in acceptance.
zen is quite literally a self-destructive ideology and some of that can be read into the movie: she's realizing that there's nothing special about her, that her self is an illusion, and she's most definitely not readily accepting that because she wants to be herself (which the Puppetmaster explicitly tells her is badwrong). She's seeking out the puppetmaster out of morbid curiosity (and also because it's her job) because she needs to make sure that there's something left for her to define herself.

Also will you stop referencing irrelevant bullshit like masculinity and youtube video game shows? That doesn't make you sound sensible at all.
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>>16262277
Hint: all psychology is armchair psychology
I was not accusing you of anything. Everything I analyzed there was not addressed by you. You claimed it was not expressed through dialogue, and I never claimed you were "focusing," because you proved you were talking about dialogue by mentioning dialogue.
>>16262277
The fact that you have no idea what worrying is shows you have no clue what real emotion is.
You're trying to contrast her to a character that she's not. Oshii wasn't trying to make the manga: the movie.
It has nothing to do with having her fucking beliefs shattered. She has the right hunches about everything, and she's looking for the truth in practice, meaning a fucking opportunity, you dumbass. Her only "desperation" is exercised through passion, not vulnerability. Stop mapping completely different movies onto her character. You're losing the motherfucking point.
She was not insecure at the beginning of the movie. She's extremely satisfied with herself. She executes everything with cunning. This isn't a desperate or lost character.
She's not clinging to memories to struggle against nihilism. When _I_ says nihilism, it's a nuanced concept she's dealing with constantly through effortless habits that she maintains. When _you_ think of this, you're thinking she's weak. You're a fucking idiot.
Yes, it was sufficient. Your personal lack of fucking attention and bias doesn't give you any reason to critique it. You have no mastery of these subjects, and therefore have no decent opinion.
I asked a friend who is much more like Motoko than you have put on. You missed the fucking nuance, there, and instead got lost again on glib fucking delusions.
She absolutely fucking accepted the merger, you dumbass. She went to the fucking puppetmaster knowing that this would be the process. You're trying to play "OHHHH MY GODDDDD LoOK At THE plOt TwIsTTTTT," which is fucking retarded. You're trying to outsmart a movie that left you behind.
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>>16261497
Also, let me point this out for you, since you've admittedly never watched another Oshii movie or read the whole source material:

Oshii very often puts characters who experience extreme angst in his movies, and just like Motoko, they always appear emotionless, calm and composed, merely "contemplative" at a glance. But, just like Motoko, they're always worried about the validity of their own beliefs, which is portrayed more through the scene direction, the music and occasional emotional outbursts than through facial expressions because they're constantly trying to cover up their angst.

Quiet contemplativeness with majestic romantic scenery is how Oshii typically portrays self-doubt and that wasn't really in the manga.

Motoko never has an emotional outburst as strong as in Angel's Egg or Jin-Roh, but when she faces the puppetmaster, you can clearly hear terror and doubt in her voice. She's powerless before the "truth" that's going to destroy her.

Again, the way you're describing Motoko actually fits her manga version a lot more, because in the manga (at the end especially) she's mostly just fed up with the world and already too nihilistic to really give a shit. When she confronts the puppetmaster before merging, she doesn't sound afraid, just wary. Most of the romantic existential crisis wankery was added by Oshii because he felt that it would work, and if you're interpreting his version of Motoko as fully self-assured, it's because he had to work with a source material that mostly portrayed her as self-assured and couldn't reasonably just show her having an emotional breakdown because that'd be too blatantly out-of-character. He still gave us the next best thing with lengthy scenes of suicidal self-doubt, and a bit of terrified voice acting near the end.

>>16261500
I don't doubt that GitS 95 has no real thesis, I'm just explaining you that you're blatantly misreading what little characterization there is in it.
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>>16262313
Being calm is an emotion. You're missing the mark heavily. Composed is an emotion. These things are states of mind. "Mindless" is much more related to emotionless: The tone of voice used by Scarlett Johanssen in the abomination is a great example of this. THAT is autism.
It's not self-doubt. You're mapping that from other films. It makes no sense in the context, because Motoko has already established herself as contemplative in terms of being an intelligent human being.
She has doubts and is fearful of ego death, but this is because all egos have this. It's touching on something way deeper than "omg my memories." It's not the truth that is going to destroy her: She is not powerless. The puppetmaster is literally asking her to do so.
The puppetmaster could have used another intelligence, but he wanted her. He tried to express, in what little time he had, what equates to love on a much deeper level. Love is an appreciation of similarity: What the puppetmaster saw in Motoko (and what Motoko ALSO SAW in the Puppetmaster) is something deeper than that similarity.

Even in the anime, Motoko uses her self as a loose concept, and is a puppetmaster of her fucking own. That kind of personality: The cunning, transcendent type, is exactly what exists in the film.
She doesn't sound as "afraid" as you're making her out to be. It's not existential crisis that's going on: She's talking with Batou most of the time about that.
You're again trying to repeat your attitude that Oshii's works are just repetitious, and that's problematic. Repetitious masterpieces are inherently not so.
You wanted the manga: the movie. Admit it.
>>16262313
I'm not misreading anything, here. You're fucking obsessed. You have a fucking folder full of fanart.
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>>16262285
Are you for fucking real?

>I never claimed you were "focusing,"
you literally did
>>16260337
>You're focusing too much on dialogue
right there
>The fact that you have no idea what worrying is shows you have no clue what real emotion is.
this isn't real emotion, it's an anime character being artificially portrayed as angsty.
Knowledge of Oshii's work is more precious to determine this than your female friend's insight
>She has the right hunches about everything
ghost whispers, which are either the Puppetmaster guiding her towards itself, or psychic premonitions if you follow the manga.

>You're losing the motherfucking point.
YOU are losing the point. She wouldn't feel the need to look for the truth if wasn't experiencing angst and worry.
You supposedly know about philosophy right? Philosophy begins with doubt and the extreme discomfort of having your certainties questioned. Existential philosophy starts with angst.
>When _I_ says nihilism, it's a nuanced concept she's dealing with constantly through effortless habits that she maintains. When _you_ think of this, you're thinking she's weak.
She's as weak as anybody who's having an existential crisis, it's nothing special. If anything the fact that she hasn't had an existential crisis much earlier in her life is very surprising
>I asked a friend who is much more like Motoko than you have put on.
your friend isn't like Motoko you idiot
>She absolutely fucking accepted the merger, you dumbass
Only after the fact, which makes the validity of that acceptance more doubtful. She was not actually given the choice to merge, the puppetmaster just vaguely tried to convince her that it'll be fine and then just brainfucked her
In the manga, however, she willingly merged.
I'd say that's quite a twist compared to the source material
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>>16262324
I said you were focusing **too much**. Learn to fucking read. There is a much bigger difference here, and I was stating that in regard to one bit. You're not just focused too much on dialogue in some parts, you completely ignore it in others. This is completely possible. Use your reasoning.

No, it's a real fucking emotion. I'll watch Oshii's work, and I'll come to realize he has a great way of capturing emotion. For fuck's sake, your conclusions don't follow your inforamtion.

The ghost whispers are literally just the encapsulation of "feel it in my gut."
Yes, she does. There are people who actually try to improve themselves constantly, instead of amassing images of a single fucking character to stuff in a folder. Those people, like Motoko, see opportunities and seize them.
Existentialism isn't fucking angst. It's contemplation. It's Zen.
She is not WEAK by experiencing existence, or everyone is.

My friend is not directly Motoko, but much more mindful than you are.
She did not accept it "after the fact." It's clearly in the time that Batou reaches over that this conversation happens. It's fast. It's a fucking _neural connection_.
He didn't brainfuck her. What are you even trying to say?
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>>16262324
Are you a Christian? Were you raised with fundamentalist Christian values?
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>>16262321
>She has doubts and is fearful of ego death, but this is because all egos have this
Of course, all egos experience an existential crisis, but that can happen as a result of different circumstances, in Motoko's case it's the realization that she can't define herself solely by her body and her thoughts.
It makes perfect sense in the context as I've explained you: Motoko just saw that memories can be fabricated wholesale, just like cyborg bodies. Up until that point she could still say that she was defined by her memories but now that certainty has been thrown out the window, therefore she's doubting her own consistency as an individual, which is why she's constantly talking with Batou about it, it's entirely self-evident.

That's how Motoko and the puppetmaster are similar: neither of them feel like they're really alive. They've got badass powers but they both feel incomplete.

All that stuff is very obvious, I shouldn't have to explain it all to you.

>You're again trying to repeat your attitude that Oshii's works are just repetitious, and that's problematic. Repetitious masterpieces are inherently not so.
And that's precisely why GitS is NOT a masterpiece, it's a repetition of many things Oshii has already done many times.

>You wanted the manga: the movie. Admit it
did I ever say the opposite? Of course I want a much more faithful adaptation of the manga, it's not perfect but it's got better characterization and a more in-depth look at the same themes

>You have a fucking folder full of fanart.
and you don't, because you don't actually give a shit about this movie which you don't understand.
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>>16262334
I just watched the Japanese version, and I can see how you can conclude that she is way more fearful than I concluded. I watched the dub, primarily.
Even in the original, however, all of these concerns are completely valid, and I think you're overestimating how fucked she was, because she already resigned to this situation.
I think it has nothing to do with memories, other than the fact that she recognizes that these parts can only relate to the whole in the same way that the whole can relate to their parts.
She talks with Batou about it not because it's on her mind alone, but because she knows he thinks it, too.
They're similar in so many more ways than that. They are Gods (as all humans are), and they use their curiosity to grow further.

It's not a repetition. There's no way that this plot is repeated in other Oshii films. I'll watch the others, though.

It's not _supposed_ to be an adaptation of the manga. It's a spiritual translation. The movie is to the manga as the thing at the end of the film is to Motoko.

"YOU DON'T CARE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT AUTISTIC LIKE ME! LOOK AT MY OUTWARD-FACING ATTEMPT TO COMPENSATE FOR A LACK OF INNER SELF! KISS ME, SHINJI!"
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>>16262332
Of course not
Why the constant need to define me on a personal level?
first it's "let me hear your voice" then it's "you're this and that age" then it's "you watch this and this youtube show" then it's "you liked the 2017 movie" then it's "you're too focused on the dialog" and now it's "you're a fundamentalist christian"
it's ridiculous.
Can't you just address my points without trying to profile me?

>>16262329
>I said you were focusing **too much**. Learn to fucking read. There is a much bigger difference here, and I was stating that in regard to one bit. You're not just focused too much on dialogue in some parts, you completely ignore it in others. This is completely possible. Use your reasoning.
Stop flip-flopping on that point

The puppetmaster brainfucked her. It's made obvious by the fact that the resulting entity looks like a kid (same thing in Innocence)
>The ghost whispers are literally just the encapsulation of "feel it in my gut."
yep, and it can be explained the two ways I mentioned

>No, it's a real fucking emotion. I'll watch Oshii's work, and I'll come to realize he has a great way of capturing emotion. For fuck's sake, your conclusions don't follow your inforamtion.
again, I didn't say she was emotionless I said she was inexpressive and that inexpressiveness is usually how Oshii portrays self-doubt. Which is also a real emotion that you should have noticed.

being composed is literally not an emotion, it's an attitude that consists in suppressing your emotions.

I'm nearing the point where I can't take you seriously anymore, time after time you're demonstrating the fact that you can't even read basic movie language and that you're projecting your idea of Motoko as this invulnerable seeker of enlightenment onto a typical psychological thriller where the protagonist is driven by self-doubt and world-weariness. And now you're showing us that you don't even know the meaning of words. This is embarrassing
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>>16262349
It's anything BUT a spiritual translation
if it were a spiritual translation it'd be a lot more humorous, a lot less dramatic, a lot less solemn and a lot less focused.
It certainly doesn't repeat the plot of other Oshii films, since that is taken largely from the manga, HOWEVER, the tone, characterization, character motivations and directing style most definitely are repetitious.
The spirit is Oshii's, the plot is Shirow's.

>The movie is to the manga as the thing at the end of the film is to Motoko.
Then I'm afraid Motoko really got brainwashed by the Puppetmaster and lost her spirit in the process.

>She talks with Batou about it not because it's on her mind alone, but because she knows he thinks it, too.
Could be. Or she just knows he's the only guy whom she can talk to. After all Batou's also a mopey angstcop in Oshii's movies. Still doesn't make her any less self-absorbed.

>because she already resigned to this situation
Only partially. She certainly felt seduced by the prospect of ego death to a degree but she's also afraid of it, and clings to her past as a result whilst also seeking answers.

It's a quite obvious character conflict.

and again, chill out with the off-the-mark attempts at ad hominem dismissals
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>>16262367
The combination of the will and the ego is a delusion. The separation of self from the purpose of reality is a delusion. The film explores that through a raw process that culminates in this question being directly confronted by not-only-Motoko, and not-only-Puppetmaster.

We could even say this about the movie itself. Through Oshii and Shirow meeting to produce this product of wills, of spirits, what was created is obviously marked with their essences, but can only be considered as a combination of its parts through a relation to the entirety of the film. You're missing the "entirety" part, and missing a forest for its trees.
The puppetmaster has not brainwashed anything. He was incomplete, as well. Perhaps it would do you well to see Evangelion again before you watched GitS. The concept of the horrors of ego is much more on the nose in that one.
Batou isn't moping. Even when he is brooding, it is for a specific reason, not just "as a personality trait."
It's not about her past for her. That isn't the foundation of her character. Where are you getting that?

Welcome to the internet. I'm going to sharpen my tongue against you, and you've taken it, so far. It must not be that harsh.
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>>16262852
Goddamn, what a load of horseshit. You're overinterpreting the hell out of this movie despite having said yourself that it isn't meant to convince anybody.
And now you're even trying to shoehorn Evangelion into GitS. And in spite of how loaded with introverted angst Eva is, you're failing to identify the same quality in GitS 95.
Eva certainly shares many plot points and character elements with GitS but so do several other manga and anime from around that time. You could effectively randomly generate an equally deep anime just by plugging those shared clichés into a program, what really matters is how well-crafted the result is from a purely technical perspective.

>Batou isn't moping. Even when he is brooding
moping, brooding, shmoping, shmooding, same difference, just being a sulky ball of boredom and angst like the overwhelming majority of Oshii's characters since the late 80s

>It's not about her past for her. That isn't the foundation of her character. Where are you getting that?
from the dialog, the imagery, the characterization and the plot.

Why don't you go sharpen your tongue on a subject you can even remotely grasp instead of desperately trying to convince people that Oshii's truncated, excessively mopey take on GitS is a brilliant work of art despite having nothing to show for it and ignoring blatant pieces of imagery and dialog?

If this is all an elaborate false-flag portrayal of the typical delusional MAL-level pseudo-intellectual faggot who's only watched 10 anime and thinks he can pass judgement upon the whole medium because of his moderate insight, then congratulations cause that's a pitch-perfect impersonation. Even Benett doesn't come off as this ignorant (but then again, he's actually watched quite a lot of anime)

the question is: why are you trying to come off as a pedantic fool ?
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>>16263025
You need to realize that this isn't isolated to Oshii or anything else. It's present in all science fiction. Even in the manga, I guarantee she is your definition of "angsty."
Batou wasn't boring. Look deeper.
Be more specific.

And when I said sharpen my tongue, it was referring to (your incorrect usage of) "ad hominem," and again, it _is_ a brilliant work of art. Name something that you think _is_ the manga: the movie, if you want it so badly. What you want is the 2017 film, and you're a fucking retard for that.

I don't have to know everything to know that you know nothing.
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>>16263355
She certainly has a few moments of angstiness in the manga but it's never even remotely as severe as in Oshii's stuff. She's a lot more well-rounded in the manga and that's why I consider Oshii's take on her character to be a downside of the movie. Same deal with Batou. But of course you don't know just how bad Oshii bastardized his character cause you've never watched Innocence.

>I don't have to know everything
Well you seem to believe that the 2017 movie is closer to the manga than the 95 movie was.

So that's another thing you're dead wrong about, cause the 2017 movie just exacerbated the flaws of the 95 movie by making characters even more mopey and dull and bastardizing the plot even further, thereby moving even further away from the source material.

Seems like your tongue ain't so sharp after all, cause every time you try to dismiss my perspective on a personal level (which is what an ad hominem argument consists in) you fall flat on your face and just come off as desperate.

May I suggest bothering evafags instead of us?
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>>16263568
The movie seemed to make it more cyberpunk which has a pretty dark vibe to it. The SAC series felt like it almost had nothing to do with the cyberpunk genre. I can understand who they wanted to give ger a more serious tone in the movie. She's a trained cyborg thats conflicted with about reality and such.

Anyway, I enjoy it all for what its worth. One giant fucking diamond with many facets but it still is part of the bigger picture no matter which way you look at it.
>>
Slavoj Zizek should go to bed already
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>>16263355
>Batou wasn't boring
You're right. He was worse than boring - he was the team's last recruit before Togusa, yet ragged on Togusa the worst, about being new to the team.

So, basically, Batou's a hypocrite and a bully. Worse than boring.
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>>16264206
Long stretch, there.
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>>16263568
You are still too retarded to get what "sharpening my tongue" meant.
You're trying to compare a manga that the movie is not actually meaning to adapt the characters from to the movie. You're wrong.
Yes, the 2017 movie is closer to the manga than the 1995 movie is, since you think that the thing that matters most is relationships between characters. You wanted a movie all about Major, so you got one. Get fucked. You need to realize that a movie will never be like an adaptation of a manga. Name fucking one of them that is.
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>>16258913

There are fucking moe moe tachikomas in SAC which kill any sentiment of political drama or whatever.
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>>16265312
Goddamn the more you go the less sense you make. Sharp tongue indeed.

>Yes, the 2017 movie is closer to the manga than the 1995 movie is, since you think that the thing that matters most is relationships between characters. You wanted a movie all about Major, so you got one.
this ain't a straw you can grasp onto cause that's hella false. But you'd know that if you weren't talking out of your ass.

>Name fucking one of them that is.
I'd say Baoh comes pretty fucking close. It's a little truncated but it's tonally congruent, which is more than can be said of GitS movies.

I think I'm done with your ass.

See ya, jabroni.

>>16265860
I think it's mostly the other way around: the overall down-to-earth seriousness of the series prevent the tachikoma from coming off as harmless cartoon characters, and instead makes them appear threateningly unhinged and irresponsible compared to other characters.

But yeah, there's definitely an awkward tonal inconsistency in SAC with the tachikoma
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>>16265909
I feel like the child-like voices of the Tachikomas in no way get in the way of me seeing them as what they are-an AI with an alien,incomprehensible kind of intelligence.
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>>16268983
Yeah but that's the problem right there.
Their voices are supposed to diminish their inherent creepiness and add a more light-hearted tone to the series, but all they do is make them sound annoying and extra weird, and clash with the personalities of the other characters.

With their own appearance, too, cause even if they have a toy-like design, the rigid CG animation prevents them from appearing as cartoon characters, unlike the fuchikomas in the PS1 cutscenes that even had a cartoon mouth to appear less uncanny.

SAC as a whole is a somewhat awkward compromise between stylization and realism that doesn't go far enough in either direction (at least not consistently enough).

eh
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>>16269181
Their voices in no way were meant to do what you stated. Stop presenting your opinion as fact.
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>>16269181
Admittedly the Fuchikoma could be kinda annoying in the manga.
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>>16265909
>i'm done with your ass
Nice ultimatum. Do you manipulate your mother with that mouth?

You're tone deaf.
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>>16254233
Now imagine that every big wig in the Japanese government, police, JSDF, etc had their OWN private armies and that's GITS!
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>>16252221
>Shirow "Police Brutality is fun" Masamune isn't a left-wing socialist internationalist

Ya don't say...
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>>16255026
Ian Mckellen. He's a gun nerd who goes around looking at old guns. He doesn't like the Bren Ten.
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>>16260266
>Hasn't seen anything by Oshii
>Reads shit tons of themes in the imagery of Oshii's work that he PUT IN ALL OF HIS FILMS.

I am laffin m8.
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>>16261497
You're a psuedo-intellectual who's unfamilar with the work, the context in which it was made, the visuals used, the style and imagery favoured by the director, the original work on which the piece was based, and more. Please, go and watch and read more of it and stop reading your own generic interpretations into it.
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>>16265312
>The 2017 film is closer to the manga.

You haven't read the manga because the bloody Beano is closer to the GITS manga that the 2017 film.
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>>16272278
No, he was pretty spot on entirely with his analysis of the film, both in the context of Shirow's other works and Oshii's works. Alarmingly spot on.

You were spouting the usual pseudo-intellectual nonsense that people read into this film despite not having any experience with Oshii's filmography or Shriow's writing and art.
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>>16260187
>Or are you saying that the movie is about how capitalism will fuck you up because it's got people who have a job in it?
Seems on point to me, capitalism is incredibly "fuck you got mine," and I don't have mine yet.
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>>16272414
Capitalism is about making everyone richer because that makes you richer.

Corporatism=/Capitalism.
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>>16272423
Right right, my bad. We live in a hereditary plutocracy, not a capitalistic democracy.
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>>16272427
There you go. Ironically capitalism did almost overthrow this but they just co-opted the higher echelons and made them the new aristocrats.
>>
I kind of miss when these threads just devolved into worshipping the bountiful hairstyles of Shirow's women. The sense of unity was rather nice.
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>>16272483
what the hell is she doing here? Ripping something out while remembering she forgot to turn the stove off while massaging her cramped leg?
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>>16272395
Ah, so you've taken the "pretend to leave and simply fire up a sock puppet" approach.
This isn't gaia.
>>16272393
You missed the point. I am criticizing this shitty focus on a false sense of "character development." His third-grade analysis skills make it impossible to get the point across to him except for proof-by-negation.
>>16272431
pure ideology
>>16272387
ah yes, those pseudo-intellectuals, distinguished quite readily from us TRUE intellectuals
>>16272384
The action of the creator is not entirely conscious.
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>>16272489
>Everyone who disagrees with me is the same guy.

No, he's a completely different person but he's shown himself to be very intimate with details of the franchise and Oshii's directorial style. You're a pseudo-intellectual with no knowledge of what you're trying to critique and just applying babby's first semester at film school nonsense to the whole affair while being bitch-slapped left, right and centre. There's not point discussing this with you until you've read the comic and gone off and seen more of Oshii's works. Until then, you ain't got shit to say, son because you lack the context and knowledge to understand the piece.

It's like you looked at one medieval cathedral and pointed out how the nave must be for this specific purpose, when all cathedrals have naves and they exist not because of the reason you said, or throwing you the Waltherius and you saying it's actually an allegory for the price of fish in markets at the time without any knowledge of Carolingian culture or literature to put it in the right context. When you're fixated on shit Oshii does in all his film work from Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer to Sky Crawlers and pretending it has special meaning here, it makes you look foolish. A surface reading by a layman is not worth much.

Go off, watch a few more Oshii films, read the GITS comic, then come back and try again.

>inb4 you don't do this, act offended, make a snarky, insulting remark, and then blab on about nonsense that has nothing to do with the film, stroking your pseudo-intellectual cock harder.
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>>16272498
>>16272489
Also:

>The action of the creator is not entirely conscious.

Ie I can say what I like and it's right!

Again, you lack context, you lack knowledge of the director and you lack knowledge of the source material. Blind man feeling an elephant.
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>>16272498
>>Everyone who uses the same vernacular to make the same comments is the same guy
>UH NO OK?? HERE'S MORE OF THE SAME VERNACULAR AND THE SAME REGURGITATED COMMENTS
You're not fooling anyone.
>>16272502
You have no fucking clue what the world of storytelling is like if you take the idea of "source material" as serious. A fucking film director is not going to make the manga: the movie, ever, period. Stop fucking trying to act like that would be a good thing.
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Maybe not the best place for it, but drew a fanart with motoko, need criticism/ an opinion from the side. Sorry for engrish
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>>16272507
Hey,you fucking cock gobbler,have you even seen any of the other GITS stuff?
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>>16273960
Yes.
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>>16272800
>that katakana
could do without it
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>>16272800
It`s so nice I saved it.A bit unfinished looking,but I like your artstyle.
>>
Man I really wish something like GitS or even SAC could be made today but anime has irrevocably turned to shit. Oh well plenty of old stuff to watch.
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Jebus christ gremlin, there's so many of (you) here that you're starting to sound like a DORK
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>>16274483
she is not a dork
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>>16274410
>or even SAC
>implying SAC wasn't the better work
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>>16274410
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/ghost-in-the-shell-anime

your wish may come true
>>
Why is cyberpunk from the other side of the poverty line so rare? Usually it focuses on rebels and iconoclasts living on the fringes of society being ground down by the system but the good guys in SAC are a well-funded and amply supplied paramilitary secret police unit who spend most of their time hunting down your typical cyberpunk protagonists.
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>>16279109
jesus christ why do you keep bumping this thread?

Oh you're the douche who made that "japanese cyberpunk is like this, western cyberpunk is like that, why is that so?" troll thread a few weeks back, aren't you?

You're back at it again with the loaded questions and misrepresentations of cyberpunk, I see.
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>>16279133
>jesus christ why do you keep bumping this thread?
That was my first post ITT.

>Oh you're the douche who made that "japanese cyberpunk is like this, western cyberpunk is like that, why is that so?" troll thread a few weeks back, aren't you?
No, and I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't been on here in months.

>You're back at it again with the loaded questions and misrepresentations of cyberpunk, I see.
Since you seem to be so confident in your knowledge, would you care to actually back up your insults?
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>>16279109
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FTJI2KNvQ8
how about Overdrawn At The Memory Bank?
Raul Julia is a cybersalaryman and gets caught wasting time at work watching movies on the megacorp's company tubes
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>>16279162
fact of the matter is that a good chunk of cyberpunk actually is on this side of the poverty line. Never mind the fact that there's at least five GitS continuities and three main Shirow franchises (with several declinations of their own) that focus on well-funded law-enforcement agencies, or the fact that most of the GitS bad guys are NOT what you call "your typical cyberpunk protagonists" but wealthy or powerful organizations and individuals who are part of the establishment, there's also a bunch of other anime/manga that are also cop dramas where the protagonists (even if they're rebellious loose-canons like many Section 9 members) are well-funded crimefighters
such as:
Angel Cop
Burn Up!
Burn Up! W
AD Police Files
AD Police
Parasite Dolls
Cyber City Oedo 808
Armitage 3
Armitage 3 part 2
and if you stretch it a little in terms of legality
Bubblegum Crisis
Bubblegum Crash
Midnight Eye Gokuu
and then there's also shows like Lain and Key where the protags are firmly middle-class and never really in need of money (aside from that one monk guy in Key the Metal idol) in spite of their more or less criminal activities

Right now the only anime I can think of where the protagonists are actually poor are Megazone 23 part 2 and Genocyber.

Make no mistake, there's a LOT of cyberpunk fiction, both in the east and in the west, that focuses on military organizations, cops, detectives, assassins, and all sorts of people who aren't murderhobos and destitute adventurers.

Hell, the whole Metal Gear franchise. or the Deus Ex franchise.
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>>16279236
Also, Psycho-Pass, Real Drive, and Pandora.

It's actually a bit of a chore to identify Japanese cyberpunk stuff that ISN'T about mid or upper-mid class individuals
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>>16279173
Thanks for sharing this oddity. I'm only finished with part 1 so far, but it has been like an episode of "The Twilight Zone" meets a budget "Total Recall".
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tfw you have a friend that unironically defends 2017 GitS
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>>16279340
Does he also defend every shitty Equilibrium ripoff of the 2000s?

Cause if he doesn't there's some major case of double standards going on in there.
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>>16279307
Yeah it's obviously very rough around the edges, between the production values and some clunky dialog.

But there's a lot of cyber stuff going on in that 80s Office Building Of The Future.




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