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Char and Amuro are basically fighting in a dead heat. Then Char says this and makes a desperate lunge at Amuro that basically costs him the fight. What did Char mean by this line?
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>>16411016
>fighting in a dead heat
https://youtu.be/ItCMX3A1qaE
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>>16411016
That his saber is weaker than his? His suit is inferior to the Nu Gundam? I don't understand.
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>>16411082
Char lost because of inferior equipment instead of getting out-Newtyped?
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>>16411100
The nu was only so powerful because of Amuro going ham on the psycho frame. Char admits to giving Amuro the tech so he wouldn't get rekt by the Sazabi
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>>16411016
He didn't have any other usable weapons at that range and a saber that would lose in repeated clashes against the Nu's. It follows that the only way to win the fight there is to avoid clashes by going in for a sudden unblocked strike
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Maybe Char should have prayed to mother lalahs soul like Armando did.
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>>16411104
I can see that happening with the performance of the actual mobile suit itself, but not with the beam saber which wasn't in any way connected to the suit/psychoframe.
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>>16411116
So basically, Amuro is not a conclusively better pilot than Char, he just had a better beam saber? Must be why his clone plugged that shit straight into the reactor.
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>>16411177
One could make that argument, yes. It's hard to explicitly state who is a better pilot unless the two combatants have identical gear specs.
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>>16411160
The melee weapons get stronger during trans am in 00 though
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>>16411160
Watch Mashymre's death in ZZ and you'll understand what he's on about.
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>>16411341
>watch ZZ

I have routinely tried and failed to make it through the first 20 episodes.
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>dead heat

At long range sure but the second it moved to close range he got destroyed. Did they fight at close range when Amuro was still in the ReGZ?
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>>16411341
>Mashymre's death in ZZ
>>16411718
You're missing out anon. Just power through.
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Damn it! All these Char's Counterattack threads are making me want to go back and rewatch it, but that might be due to the fact that I'm in the middle of Unicorn.
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>>16411718
>through the first 20 episodes
That's just around the time when it starts to get intense.
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>>16411731
Yeah they did. Char was not having any harder of a time.

It still took quite a bit of time for Amuro to take Char down by late UC standards, and Char just barely missed a killing blow on him. It was a really close fight even in close range and boiled down to Amuro exploiting one small mistake on Char’s part as much as possible. Which has always been Amuro’s style, and what makes him so ferocious as a pilot, if you slip up even once you are fucked against Amuro. IMO if Amuro is a 10/10 pilot Char is probably a 9.5 ot at worst a 9 . Amuro is better, but not by all that much.
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>>16411016
Is this just 1 dude that just watched CCA and decided to make all his questions separate threads?
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>>16411783
I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that much separates Amuro and Char in terms of piloting skill, just that Amuro kind of bodies him in the final showdown when it gets to melee range.
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>>16411177
At the point in OP's pics, Char had lost his beam tomahawk, its best melee weapon, while Amuro still had his large beam saber. Main weapon vs backup, Sazabi lost.

But the Sazabi has better all around specs than the Nu. Better guns, more of them, better melee weapons as well. The only thing definitely better in the Nu was its fin funnels, but they played very little role in his VS against char.

Nu vs Sazabi is a long drawn out battle were both pilots try time and again to trick, trap and outwit each other using everything they can think about. Char and Amuro wears each other out over the battle sacrificing more and more of their gear until they've got nothing left but to punch each other out.

Amuro proves to be Char's better in this fight very decisively.
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>>16411970
Your last sentence pretty much completely contradicts the rest of your post.

Was the beam tomahawk the one Char chunked at the nu gundam's gun to destroy it?

You can see in the shot just before this that char's saber still has the fancier guard around the top, I thought that meant that it was the beam tomahawk.
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>>16412286
The one Char used to destroy Nu's rifle is the Tomahawk.

The one that he was talking in OP pic is his beam saber.
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>>16412308
No. He's definitely using the tomahawk at the end. You can see it in this screenshot from immediately before OP's screenshot.
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>>16412316
>>16412308

Here's another
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>>16411016
>>16412322
>>16412316
>>16411970

Amuro gets a power boost from Chan's ghost and the letter T that diffuses Char's beam saber. Kinda like how in Beltorchika's Children Char blasts him with a beam cannon equivalent to Wing Zero's, but the psychic fetus just deflects it away.
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>>16412328

>like how in Beltorchika's Children Char blasts him with a beam cannon equivalent to Wing Zero's, but the psychic fetus just deflects it away.
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>>16412286
Char had all the advantadges yet failed to land a telling blow. Worse, he wasted his energy and ammunition faster than Amuro until the latter got the advantadge and turned the table on him.

Char and Amuro are clearly in a league of their own, but there is also a clear gap between Amuro and Char.
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>>16413989
>Char and Amuro are clearly in a league of their own, but there is also a clear gap between the output of Amuro's beam saber and Char's beam tomahawk

FTFY
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>>16413998
It wasn't the first time they crossed swords and Char didn't comment until then. The Tomahawk was weaker because Char wasted its power before.
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>>16411177
He had to be the better pilot to make use of his beam saber advantage. Amuro identified Char's strengths and weakensses and those of his own and then used that to his advantage. Char would have been trying to do the same.
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>>16414026
How would he have wasted it in a manner than Amuro didn't? The swords only flare up when they make contact with other swords or metal. You're really reaching here. It makes much more since that they were dead even and a difference in equpiment resulted in Char being put in an untenable disadvantage that eventually cost him the fight.
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>>16414163
Not him, but recall what he is talking about.
There's a scene where char swings at amuro wildly (I remember because the animation in that particular cut looks rather goofy and out of place). I'll try to find it when I'm not phoneposting

Also I thought it was widely accepted that Amuro is a markedly superior pilot. Char is even canonically a relatively weak newtype
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>>16414163
Throwing it as a ranged weapon, for one. Second, the tomahawk was charged from the sazabi's reactor, and it was running low in the end, not being able to fire its chest cannon.

Nevermind that Char came at Amuro more or less fresh while Amuro first had to clean mooks for Londo Bell, deal with Gyunei and Quess.
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>>16414336
It's very possible the Sazabi wasn't rearmed/refueled/recharged during the break in combat. Nanai mentions that Char shouldn't have to go out again, so they may have left it. It still only had a single funnel left when it sorties before the duel starts and the first thing he does is jettison the propellant tanks.
Also Char does briefly flight some mooks in the middle of their duel, though not nearly as much expenditure as Amuro when fighting Quess.
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>>16414331
Are you talking about the moment when Char was dual wielding the sabres and rapidly slashing?

https://youtu.be/gB89HFPsbDw?t=155
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>>16411016
>>16411104
this. arrogance becomes Char's single flaw. he gives the Psycho tech to the feddies so that itll be fun to fight them instead of the usualy shop wrecking. BUT they actually use it in a better way and Nu-Gundam pimp slaps the Sazabi when Amuro gets upset.
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>>16411177
Yes he is though he defeated the superior Zeong, not to mention was able to beat Char with the Elmeth assisting him. Amuro is a better pilot.
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>>16414963
Then Zeong battle was a draw though, both machines got wrecked.
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>>16414963
His fight vs the Gelgoog was inconclusive because it had 2 run-ins.

He didn't defeat Char in the Zeong, they drew. And the technical superiority of the Zeong is offset by the fact that Char had never piloted the suit before, nor had he trained on it.
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>>16415218

It was also a bigger target and has no melee capacity.
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>>16411025
Oh THAT'S what she's saying!
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>>16411734
Man, something about the screen flashing GET OUT!! over the top of the Zaku III's monoeye is fucking horrifying.
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>>16414454
You know I never caught it before since it happens so fast, but it does look like Amuro scores a few vulcan hits to the Sazabi's mega particle cannon before Char says that he lost power. Maybe the implication was just supposed to be that Amuro shot it out? CCA kinda had a problem with being clear sometimes, so it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.
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>>16414331

>I thought it was widely accepted that Amuro is a markedly superior pilot.

It is widely accepted, but I made this thread to challenge that widespread acceptance. Already the conversation has gone from the typical "Amuro trounced Char" to "well maybe Char swung his beam tomahawk a 3 or 4 too many times midway through their fight."


>Char is even canonically a relatively weak newtype

There's more of an argument here, but I still think most of Char's feats are overlooked. In addition to sending kamille before they met, Char is very impressively able to feel Lalah from as far away as Mars, whereas for comparison Amuro can't feel her when he's on earth. He also gives off significant enough pressure to give Scirocco pause before he knows who is piloting the Hyaku Shiki, whereas Scirocco is not similarly intimidated by Haman. I have a few more examples but I'm posting from my phone.
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>>16415737
>Char is very impressively able to feel Lalah from as far away as Mars, whereas for comparison Amuro can't feel her when he's on earth
What?
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>>16415737
>"well maybe Char swung his beam tomahawk a 3 or 4 too many times midway through their fight."
No, to " Char had all the advantadges and failed to capitalize on them"
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>>16413998

The beam tomahawk can combine it's two beam ax blades to make a large beam saber according to the gunpla manuals. Which is exactly the same name used for Amuro's weapon; large beam saber. More importantly, Amuro having a more powerful beam saber isn't why he won in the first place, so why does it matter? Amuro wins because Char overextends in trying to attack him and can't recover fast enough to block Amuro's attack, allowing Amuro to slice off the Sazabi's arm. Whether the beam tomahawk was losing in power has nothing to do with the fact he simply couldn't get it in place to block Amuro's strike. All it meant was that when they did clash Amuro's beam saber was starting to push through Chars, but not enough to ever make a difference; and as another anon said, it's probably because Char had used more power than Amuro in earlier strikes trying to get Amuro.

>>16414336

Char had come out later in the battle than Amuro, but had also used up 5 of his 6 funnels taking out nukes Bright tried to strike Axis with and is shown destroying mooks in passing like Amuro.
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>>16415218
>>16415218

The Zeong is also faster than the Gundam and able to escape it or catch up to it multiple times if I recall, and is a far superior machine at range. Which is where most of their battle takes place. And while Char might have been piloting it for the first time that was actually to his advantage in a way, since it meant that when Amuro aimed for a killing strike he didn't hit the cockpit as he hoped and possibly saved Char's life; assuming that Amuro could hit the head in that instance instead of the chest if he'd wanted to.

As to the Gelgoog; the first fight between them has Amuro hit the Gelgoog solidly on the wrist and waist with no apparent damage suggesting it has stronger armor than the Gundam, while Char only manages a glancing strike on the backpack and a kick to the torso, with the glancing strike doing more damage than Amuro's clean hit. Amuro comes off as the clear winner in that fight in my opinion. Even in the next instance Lalah has a clearly superior unit to Sayla, while the Gelgoog and Gundam are more equal and Amuro still seems to be winning until Lalah literally pushes Char's Gelgoog out of the way of Amuro's strike to take it in his place. Yes, Char's unit loses an arm because he's reacting to Sayla's presence, but Amuro has to react to other things in the fight (like blocking Char's attacks on Sayla or Lalah's presence) and does so without losing an arm.
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>>16415737

Char says that Amuro will be able to feel Lalah in space too if I recall, and the implication is that being on Earth is itself what is stopping both of them from feeling Lalah's presence and not purely the distance. Also, while Char was a weaker Newtype than Amuro in 0079 that appears to have changed by Char's Counterattack and he seems to be in regular psychic conversation with Nanai as well as able to sense attacks coming (like Amuro's bazooka string attack) during the film; which is the same kind of things Amuro was doing all along. The entire point of the film is to make them as even as possible, so having Amuro a clearly stronger Newtype kind of undercuts that point.
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>>16416237
Way back the point made about the saber being weaker was that it made Char take more aggressive moves because he knew his saber would give out if they kept clashing. That suggests that Char took high risk high reward gamble that lost him the fight, where if he didn't have a weaker saber he wouldn't have done that and the outcome may have been different.
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>>16416261

Char was already taking aggressive moves before he noted the saber was weaker though. Char is just more aggressive on the whole, and the whole film is kind of predicated on that idea since it's him initiating an attack because he views it as his right and destiny.
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>>16414472
Pretty much. Char's arrogance is fucking hilarious. Granted, against anyone, but Amuro, he would have crushed
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>>16416790
His whole plan hinged on the Federation being retarded enough to sell him Axis in order to get him to stop dropping asteroids on Earth. As strong as Aumor is, Char would have been foiled by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.
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>>16411016
He's a cuck.
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>>16416808

Good thing Char forced the Federation's hand then, making sure they wouldn't not sell him Axis.
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>>16417089
That doesn't change a thing. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the guy who is broadcasting that he will force people into space by dropping big rocks on Earth will take the biggest rock in the Earth sphere and drop it on Earth once it was sold to him. Char was very obviously driven by ideology. Fuck the colonies, let him destroy them and erode his own support among spacenoids.
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>>16416245
Char takes out the backpack of the Gundam to the point that it becomes nearly immobile in the Texas Colony fight, that was a lot more than a glancing blow.
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>>16411016
Char lose the fight the moment Amuro got his Nu Gundam.
By CCA Amuro Skills is so goddamn superior he can basically solo the whole Neo-Zeon forces alone.
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>>16417142

No, I'm pretty sure a representative of the Federation saying they sold Axis because Char threatened the colonies does actually change that Char had to depend on the Federation refusing him and his plan falling apart. The Federation clearly didn't want to just go "fuck the colonies" as much as you might think that's a smart idea either.

>>16417329

You're right, this is clearly a much more solid hit than either of the ones that Amuro lands on Char's Gelgoog. Though watching it again to webm the whole thing I realized that there is a small hole shown in the Gelgoog later and that Char never uses the hand Amuro spears with the beam saber again and simply abandons his Gelgoog in the Texas colony (hence why he meets Sayla later) so even if no damage was actually shown the unit was still damaged. And while Amuro might not have been able to give chase because of a damaged thruster, Char had to flat out leave his unit behind because it was rendered worthless beyond immediate escape. So that's a pretty established win regardless and kind of renders my initial complaint moot.
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>>16417624
>The Federation clearly didn't want to just go "fuck the colonies"
It's not about going fuck the colonies, it's about realising that Char was obviously going to drop Axis on Earth so a decision had to be made between prioritising the safety of Earth or a couple of colonies.
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>>16411016
It's a metaphor for how Char is self-conscious about his penis size compared to Amuro's
This is why Char goes for younger girls, who have little experience in seeing larger penii
Ironically once Amuro enters the scene, his larger penis swoons the girls over and Char loses them time and again, while rejecting the experienced woman who loved him for who he was and didn't care about the size of his penis
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>>16416808
If there's one thing you can count on in the UC, it's feddie corruption and incompetence
prove me wrong
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>>16417634

Which is basically "fuck the colonies". It's "fuck the colonies compared to Earth" but it amounts to the same thing. Also, Char didn't make his Sweetwater speech until after Axis had already been purchased and even then he was announcing that he wanted to cause a nuclear winter on Earth to stop wars being fought over Earth and give Spacenoids autonomy. Which would explain why the Federation government met with Neo Zeon earlier in the film to negotiate a treaty including Axis' sale that is implied to recognize Neo Zeon as a formal government with Sweetwater as at least part of their national territory on the condition that Neo Zeon disarm. With the Federation offering jobs to all former Neo Zeon soldiers to ensure their continued welfare. It is implied that the Federation were going to recognize Neo Zeon as a legitimate government because treaties are between recognized states by the way, not a state and illegal insurgents.

The Federation were negotiating with Char because his apparent goal was the autonomy of Spacenoids and they were willing to give Spacenoids that autonomy, so they assumed he'd hold back on dropping Axis or destroying colonies in return. Why wouldn't they? How were they to know he's an idealist and had other ideals? They don't know him personally the way a viewer or some of the cast (Bright, Amuro, Mirai etc.) do. And while they were hoping Char would not drop Axis, they were also authorizing Londo Bell to try and find Char and his army as well as to watch them just in case. So it wasn't complete faith regardless.

Which means that Char actually had the means to empower Spacenoids and possibly prevent F91 and Victory by giving Spacenoids their own government but chose to follow his own ideals instead, throwing that chance away in the bargain.

>>16417684

Okay: 0079 and Victory. There are a few corrupt individuals within the Federation in those shows, but overall they're quite competent and heroic.
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>>16416237
>Amuro wins because Char overextends in trying to attack him and can't recover fast enough to block Amuro's attack,
See >>16411116
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>>16417900

If your weapon is close to breaking it's just as logical to step back and try and make every hit count as to step forward and aggressively pursue victory asap. Plus, it's not like Char wasn't being aggressive before that point. Or like he wasn't also using a large beam saber and had simply used it more than Amuro.
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>>16417724
>Okay: 0079 and Victory. There are a few corrupt individuals within the Federation in those shows, but overall they're quite competent and heroic.
What are you actually on about? In 0079 they're using the White Base, manned by refugees and conscripts, as a decoy while under the threat of court martial up until Jaburo where if you want to finally get off White Base (And aren't Kikka, Katz, and Letz) you have to serve a one year prison sentence. That's beauracratic bullshit exploiting people with no other options. It's a corrupt and manipulative organization that heroic people just so happen to be working under.
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>>16417977
Pretty sure that guy meant in Victory the Feds pretty heroic.
Even when the Feds were struggling economically they refuse to surrender to a bunch of psychotic zealots who aimed to depopulate the Earth via mind control machine. Even on the brink of defeat, the Feds still refuse to surrender and throw everything they got into field when the Angel Halo finally descent into Earth the feds rallied every ship they have to stop them from completing their plan.
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>>16417624
If Char had a ship coming to pick him up like Amuro did then he could have stuck with his machine and Amuro would have had to abandon his machine instead. They both had their mobile suits trashed to the point of immobility.
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>>16411016
>>16414454
THE MEGA PARTICLE CANON, Char used up most of his energy because he was heavy defense and used that fucking canon, so when he did fight Amuro he was low on power, not to mention Amuro shot the canon damaging it, so when at the saber duel he was out of energy and the beam became weaker. Char lost cause he tried too much and forgot his power supply, rookie mistake.
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>>16417977

What are you talking about? The only time the crew are under threat of court marshal is in episode 4 when Wakkein threatens them at Luna II in order to put the ship back in military hands. By episode's end he's relented because of the urging of the White Base's original captain Pablo before he dies though and there's no further threat of it again. Not even when they arrive in Jaburo as far as I can see skimming the episode. The upper brass talk to Bright and Mirai about their new orders, give everyone left military ranks and then try and have Letz, Kikka and Hathaway placed in day care and that's it. It doesn't even make particular sense they would be under threat of court martial since Kai is allowed to leave when he wants with no incident beyond the personal feelings of the crew and the families making up refugees all disembark peacefully and with no recrimination too.

>>16420786

I was mostly thinking of Victory yes, but at the same time in 0079 you have rather heroic characters like Matilda, Woody, Revil and Sleggar within the Federation, most of Revil's staff at Odessa are competent and immediately help Amuro with his plan to expose the traitor in the staff and even later in the show the aforementioned Wakkein takes a turn for the heroic and tries to help the White Base and crew at the Texas Colony before Char's Zanzibar destroys his ship. Even from a wider perspective the Federation has been pushed back to Earth by a faction willing to drop colonies as orbital weapons while 4 Sides were outright destroyed and they kept fighting back and trying against them. The heads at Jaburo are rather contemptuous of the White Base, but most of the Federation personnel in the show are good.

Pic unrelated by the way. Some people seemed to like the webm of the White Base leaving Jaburo as flamingos fly by I made a few weeks back and I noticed something similar when re-watching their arrival so I made another.
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>>16421008

Char did have a ship coming to pick him up: his Zanzibar. In fact, he mentions that it retrieved his Gelgoog later in the episode. Which is how he has it for the fight against Amuro and Sayla where Lalah dies shortly afterward despite not having any resupply. And you're right, double checking it (triple checking even, I guess) Amuro can no longer move the Gundam and needs the White Base to retrieve it later. Which makes me wonder about the extent of the damage inflicted yet again. Char hits the backpack in a very glancing manner that does't appear to disable it and Amuro is able to continue fighting fine, including jumping around, for some time afterwards, but then as soon as Char retreats his suit stops working and he can no longer even use the suit's limbs despite the only apparent damage being to the backpack while Char suffers two beam saber stabs that cause no apparent damage until after the fight.

Now, when Char retreats Amuro sees an energy indicator saying it's low and makes note of it but that indicator has always been used to notify him of beam rifle ammunition before, so if it's meant to indicate low fuel/reactor energy then it's odd that it wasn't clarified. The fight is clearly meant to be a draw as you say now that I've re-watched the whole thing, but the way it's choreographed and storyboarded is kind of strange and honestly makes me think the Gelgoog has superior armor to the Gundam.

Also, while Char was piloting the Gelgoog for the first time; it's worth noting that Amuro had already fought against several Doms and M'Quve's Gyan prior to fighting Char and had used up a lot of energy fighting them.
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>>16411016
Cracked under pressure. All things being equal, it's the will of the fighter that's the deciding factor.
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>>16421261
The sabres are battery powered, they don't run off a direct connection to the reactor. The only time they're hooked up to the reactor is when they're not being used and stored on the recharge racks.
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>>16411082
>>16411100
>>16411104
Char was using a backup beam saber, not the Beam Tomahawk he lost when he threw it at the Gundam
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Amuro only had to engage with Char in that last scuffle in the first place because the Gears Doga rifle is too shitty to do significant damage to the Sazabi.
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Has there been a bigger jobber than Char? Why is he still called the red comet? He clearly hasn't earned the right to keep a fucking nickname.
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>>16412322

I just thought that Char's saber was damaged, and shorting out. There's nothing special about Amuro's beam saber, it's just a bog-standard one.
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>>16425763
You can't lose a nickname gained from glory or infamy, much like how it's impossible to give yourself a nickname. It sticks with you. Besides, how many people really know about Char's many, many retreats with AEUG, and how many of those people would care?
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>>16425763
Char is pretty pathetic desu, every time he loses to Amuro he makes up some excuse, like when he fights the Gundam in the Z'Gok and complains about his auto-balancer. He never won any fights in Zeta Gundam either.
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>>16425725
If you read through the thread you can see that that is incorrect.
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>>16424980

To be fair, that just modifies the possible scenario to Char not recharging it enough after use or something. Which, with the beam tomahawk he presumably can't because it's stored in the shield and that was destroyed a few minutes earlier blocking a shot from the Nu's bazooka. Amuro's large beam saber recharges on his back of the Nu's shoulder on the other hand so he could have done so.

>>16425725

No, he isn't. See >>16412316 and >>16412322. He's definitely using the beam tomahawk in the final showdown though he also definitely threw it at the Nu to destroy it's beam rifle a few minutes earlier. So there's a couple of possible explanations. It could be that Char simply retrieved the beam tomahawk at some point off-screen, though if he did then it's a bit weird that he didn't pull out his second beam saber when the first is destroyed since he'd still have one left at that point. The same can kind of be said for Amuro though, since while it appears that Char chops the regular beam saber stored on the Nu's forearm in half at one point every time you see the Nu's forearm after that it still has a bit of white there so it looks like it still has that second beam saber and Amuro doesn't uses that either; even when Char knocks the large beam saber out of his hand.

On the other hand, it could be a case of animation error; either the earlier instance could be animation error and it was meant to be a regular beam saber he threw at Nu to destroy it's beam rifle or the later instance could be an animation error and he's meant to be using a regular beam saber against the Nu in the finale. The second does make more sense, since then Char's shock that the Sazabi's beam saber is weaker than the Nu's large beam saber has some basis.
>>
If that were the case though he did have a stronger beam saber and simply lost it because he literally threw it away so it's not like you can really view Amuro as having an unfair technical advantage. He presumably threw it at Amuro in that case because the shield had been destroyed and so it could no longer be recharged, but in that case (a) he should have designed the Sazabi to recharge it's more powerful weapons on the unit itself rather than the shield and (b) Amuro legitimately destroyed the shield using his bazooka so him having an advantage in the last seconds is through his own efforts and not one he had all along.

>>16425743

Geara Doga's don't have a beam rifle, they have beam machine guns. Which would presumably pack less power per shot, but regardless of that Amuro only ever hits the Sazabi a glancing shot on the extreme sides of the waist so it'd be unlikely to have done significant damage even if he had a beam rifle.




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