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Why are Tekken dudes even called "good guys" when they, especially in season two, act like villains instead?

From the moment I saw Mika killing enemy pilot in duel without any emotions and shooting him before he even finished sentence and later choking another dude without even trying to understand what happened, I knew that he isnt the guy I could support. And it doesnt get better, whole group is more or less bloodthristy psychos. When one character states that they are just people who had no other place for themselves than battlefield, I couldnt agree more - place for murderous psychos is on the battlefield.

Worse than that, when I checked comments on youtube vidoes, people were absurdly sympathic for them without even considering other sides. When Biscuit died, there were comments like "they shouldnt kill apart family, their enemies made grave mistake there". Oh so its forbidden to kill one of the guys from "main characters groups" but its completely okay to slaughter unnamed, poor pilots from Galls Horn side? Because they oppose "protagonists" so they are automatically bad guys? Its completely okay to give long scene and crying people for ONE dude and just second or two, if anything for some pilot just doing his duty and truly believing in order and honor?

Tekkens are the truly bad guys of this series and this scene is most satisfying ending.
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>>16593913
Nagai
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>>16593913
I don't think anyone really calls them "Good" guys.

Objectively, they're as civil as a pack of wolves. Hell, there's a reason the final form of Barbatos is Lupus Rex.

However, the camraderie and dedication is admirable even if Tekkadan is actually fairly evil.
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>>16593953

What do you mean?
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>>16593977
Nagai is an edgy shit pos. Seriously read the transcripts of his interviews. That and whatever anime he touches seem to turn to shit, just look at how he handled Toaru Index.
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But Toradora, Mai-Hime and Mai-Otome was good...
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>>16593913
Is Mika the newest Tekken 7 guest character ?
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>>16593913
Tekkadan are the products of a broken system, rising up against the oppression they have suffered. Whether this is Good or Bad is a matter of perspective.

The show is very clear in showing that the only real force of Good is Kudelia, who is working to improve the system so that children like Mika never exist in the first place.
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Tekkadan is the only real hero group in gundam.
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>>16593913
They exist to appease teenagers who have a fantasy of opposing the status quo, no matter the cost.
This really isn't unique to IBO, a lot of modern anime/manga marketed at teenagers is this way now.
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ideally the rich would all face the guillotine, but a big pair of crimping shears works fine, too
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>>16593913

Nobody called them "good guys", the show has so much grey morality good and evil don't exactly exist within it.
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>>16593953
THIS. fpbp. Say what you will about IBO in general but, I could have gone with "our protagonists aren't entirely virtuous guys and are just trying to get by in the larger universe around them" but Nagai is just fucking incompetent and turned gold into straw. You can tell that this is his first mecha show, and unfortunently rather than start with something small to get his feet wet, he dives head first in to the Gundam brand (with Bandai/Sunrise having demands of their own and needing to shill kits). But it's not like Okada doesn't share the blame if you believe the comments about the compromised ending
>Brings Okada on board to help flesh out the ideas he wants in his story, her only job is to assist in his vision like he was for her in Anohana
>S2 comes around
>Okada is all "whoops I've grown too attached to certain characters and don't want to fully go through with your vision, can we compromise?"
If IBO's finale has done anything good for the industry at large, it's been to seemingly split Okada and Nagai apart as partners.
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>>16594120
Except it obviously did:

-Space Rats: Mwuahahahaha murder
-Gjallahorn: Hey lets not have humanity plunge into darkness

Nice try at the lies, ANN.
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>>16594604
Are you implying that Gaelio surviving and going full Vidar (and back again) wasn't one of the best things about season two?

Backing away from his edgy grimdark vision of pointlessness and despair made IBO a much, much better show. Season two with no Gaelio or Shino would've been shit.
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>>16593913
>From the moment I saw Mika killing enemy pilot in duel without any emotions and shooting him before he even finished sentence and later choking another dude without even trying to understand what happened

He perfectly understood that the offer did not contain any securities and was basically just another assault on them. The dude would´ve been forced to attack them again had he lived through the duel, so what would´ve been the point in letting him walk off?

Also Mika´s basically fucked in the head and has outsourced his conscience to his friend in the name of survival years ago already.
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>>16594630
Personally, I found the whole Vidar subplot terrible because it never really went anywhere.
>I need to create a separate identity and customize Kimaris into a new machine so that I can ascertain McGillis' true intentions
Okay, I thought that Macky made it pretty black and white before but that's fine, I'm interested
>Vidar mostly sits around the fucking hanger waiting for his Gundam to be built
>Gets to go out twice before unveiling himself to McGillis
>Isn't much of a proactive character, just kinda sits around waiting for McGillis to do something
>Making a separate identity was pointless if Gaelio was barely going to interact with McGillis or hell, ANYONE else barring Rustal and his squad
>Vidar gimmick was pointless and it could have just been Gaelio hiding out in a safehouse until McGillis makes his revolutionary speech and then we get the big fight in the Gjallarhorn MS cellar
Vidar was trash because it was again a golden premise (a Garma goes Char against a Char, fighting fire with fire) and spins that gold into straw. We could have had some grand orchestrated Monte Cristo revenge but instead it's just him sitting around and making vaguely cryptic comments of his true motives and identity. It's obvious that Nagai or Okada didn't really know what they were doing with him which is a shame since the Vidar MS is fucking slick.
>Shino
Christ, don't remind me anon. Flauros was such a wasted suit. As a toy commercial, I was shocked at how bad it was at shilling these suits beyond what the designers have already imbued them with aesthetically.
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>>16594701
Both Rustal and Gaelio were just waiting for McGillis' true intentions to reveal themselves before taking any bigger actions, Gaelio just happened to also try understand the guy since he was still puzzled by his friend's sudden betrayal.

The Vidar as cool as it was, was just a disguise with limited equipment whereas the KV was the real deal. I agree that the designs might have gone to waste but the plot itself and intents were pretty clear.
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>>16594120

But still, how can I even watch show where I fully support antagonists and hope for protagonists to lose? When Im being expected to like them (introduction of female crew, clearly presenting key characters in "good" light and such) but instead I dont see anything positive in them and worse, because they are protags, I know that they will succeed? And all those scenes clearly shouting "you should feel bad for their lose/ cheer for their victory" and I feel complete opposite?

This show is not black/white in terms of characters but still try to force it, trying to manipulate the viewer via presentation to believe that darker shade of gray protags are white and lighter grey Galls are black.
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>>16594701
>Okay, I thought that Macky made it pretty black and white before but that's fine, I'm interested

Regardless of what you may have thought, McGillis' true intentions weren't revealed until midway through the second season, when the depths of his retardation were finally exposed.

When Gaelio adopts the mask McGillis still seems like a cool, manipulative mastermind intending to purge Gjallarhorn of corruption. Which turned out to be complete nonsense. He was a scared, abused little boy desperate for a stick big enough to beat off the world. And the most clever part of his plot (gaining the Baudin seat on the Seven Stars) wasn't manipulation at all, he was a pedo who genuinely loved an 8 year old girl, and tried to kill the man who wanted to be his friend because he simply could not trust anyone.

What "Macky made black and white" were lies and half truths, anon. You think the Vidar plot "never really went anywhere" because you've apparently missed all the revelations that came with it.
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>>16595104
>how can I even watch show where I fully support antagonists and hope for protagonists to lose?

They did lose, what's the problem?
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>>16595113

Some survived and Mika even got a child before that happened. Could end in complete wipe out of Tekken. And takes 50 episodes until that happens.
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>>16593913
>Confirms its a duel to the death before they even start.
>Enemy pilot openly admits that them winning is meaningless and Gjallarhorn will kill them all to cover up the attack anyways.
>Literally begging Mika to shoot him so he doesn't have to report back to his commander and be forced to fight kids again.

Yeah, mika totally murdered him in cold blood, what a monster :^)
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>>16595125
>the rabid dogs dying wasn't enough, the puppies should have been wiped out as well!
Go to bed Nagai
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The theme of ibo was to make a gundam series that was gritty with a more realistic view of war, I mean the show follows a pack of child soldiers. I imagine realistically child soldiers who’ve been killing to stay alive they’re entire lives would be desensitized to death especially of their enemies
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I think that, should a distant sequel (25 years gap in universe) be made, Tekkadan will be forgotten by Earth, but remembered by Mars the same way Victorians remember the Kelly Gang.

Think about that.
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>>16594701
Vidar's whole subplot was literally that spongebob meme.

>He's just standing there.....MENACINGLY!
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>>16595136

Puppies will grow up on stories that will portrait Tekken as "heroes". How is that good outcome? Only makes their tri face vanish in history.
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>>16594979
>>16595112
No, I got that. Gaelio doesn't want to believe that his childhood friend is a monster who had the capacity to not only plan such an outrageous scheme but actually attempt to put it in motion through the events of the first season finale.

The problem is again, why the Vidar disguise? I get that he wants to be able to roam around the ship and be able to keep tabs on McGillis by physically confronting him and trying to gauge his motives. However, that proactive approach only translates in really one encounter during the MA arc, the next time they meet it's time for the unmasking. Gaelio has so few skirmishes with McGillis that it feels utterly pointless to construct this whole false persona storyline if ultimately Gaelio gets part one of his confirmation while watching Space CNN's coverage of McGillis' revolutionary coup and then he goes over to the cellar with McGillis to get part two (are you going for Bael? Well fine, get in if you feel that you are so righteous and ordained to pilot it). I get it's all a test but, it's laughably done. We needed a cat and mouse game with these two, some real back and forth otherwise, it's just Okada and Nagai constructing a cheap subplot because Okada was horny for Gaelio's VA and didn't want him to really die in season one.

Or is the idea that this Vidar persona is also made as self-penance? That Gaelio isn't doing this solely as a means to gather intel while disguising himself but as a knight shaming himself for his folly? That he can only rid himself of this shame and mask by either defeating or joining McGillis depending on how the tide turns? If that is indeed the case, then what a shame that Gaelio publically drops the mask after he gains McGillis' true motivations so that he can add his family's name to strengthening Rustal's forces rather than after he rights his shame and kills McGillis. Again, interesting ideas and concepts that are fouled by Nagai's incompetence.
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>>16595143

And thats sadly the most probable outcome. Humanity loves to mythologize "rebels" into morally good figures, no matter what crimes they commit. Why so many people hate order and justice at hearts and adore chaos and revenge is mystery to me.
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>>16595276
>inb4 Kimaris Trooper didn't get stabbed in the cockpit in season one, you can clearly see that McGillis misses
Yes, I'm well aware but wasn't there also some interview conducted with Okada or Nagai were one of them states that originally Gaelio was supposed to die there but Okada liked the seiyuu so much that she urged Nagai to keep the character around?
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>>16595294
I remember one staff member mentioning they drew that scene in such a way it could go either way. If they were going to bring Gaelio back, there was enough room there for him to survive. To me, it sounds like not only they didn't have much of a plan for season 2, it sounds like they weren't even sure if it was going to be made.
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>>16595269
the same thing as Nobunaga being idolized as a hero, same thing as Liu Bei being idolized, Hitler being idolized ...etc etc etc.
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>>16595328
Wasn’t there also some animation director for season one that walked out the door at the end of the season and saying something along the lines of “pfft, you think this staff can handle a season two?” or some such disparaging comment on the state of the production staff. I would love to know more about what went on in the IBO production offices, I heard rumors (love to know if its factual) that Bandai wasn’t nearly as strict on Nagai/Okada with story demands which makes sense given the weird way that some suits are introduced and don’t get too great a showcasing before they are destroyed/replaced or even stuff like those orange Tekkaden grunt Man Rodi mecha (can’t remember the name) not getting an actual proper kit release (you had to paint the prior released kit and get the accessory pack with the parts needed to complete the look from what I remember) when they got a decent showcase in the anime.
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>>16594622
AY YO HOL UP

SO YOU SAYIN
*commits terrorist attacks in Dort"
YOU SAYIN
*manipulates media*
YOU TRYIN'A SAY
*protects pedophiles*
YOU SAYIN'
*shoots unarmed men and women in public*
YOU SAYIN' DAT
*snarles about putting down the rabid dog protaganist*

TEKKADAN DA REAL BAD GUY???
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>>16595378
I remember the animation director who said it wasn't worth it to fix the animation for the BDs, as well as laughing at the mention of season two. Then we have Ogawa saying the animation suffered because they didn't have enough of a budget (claiming there was too many projects leeching funding) to pay the animators to care, as well as them losing enthusiasm for the project as it was being ripped apart online. Okada herself said she didn't feel comfortable writing what Nagai wanted her to.

Also worth noting: McGillis's VA thought Gaelio being given more of a role than he was originally slated to have was unprofessional, Mika's VA hates Rustal, and Orga's VA talked at Christmas about finally piloting a mobile suit. The last 5 episodes were rewritten numerous times until a compromise was met.

It really sounds like the staff did not like working on the show.
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>>16594622
Gjallhorn's incompetence and corruption created a dark age for humanity.

The writers decided to pretend(and want the fans to believe) that Rustal was secretly a good guy who wanted peace all along...
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>>16595464
Oh yeah, that’s right. I remember that Orga VA thing too, poor guy, I feel like a lot of things were probably promised to the cast and just nixed for whatever reason (sure, these things happen but this production in particular did seem troubled like Age or SEED Destiny before them). The Sakurai thing was wild, wasn’t he also throwing some shade on the production or just looking pissed to be there or something during that “The Last Flag” event too which was on the day of the finale airing in Japan? Okada’s uncomfortability writing IBO seemed particularly intriguing since from what I remember she was intrigued by the initial elements that pretty much stayed throughout the whole series (Mika and Orga’s relationship, the almost cult like mentality or culture that Tekkaden has going on was something I remember being referenced). She usually is partnered with Nagai but he was already working on IBO before her involvement and specifically asked her to help him. I’d honestly considered reading Okada’s fairly recent autobiography just to see if she revealed anything about her time doing IBO or at least how her relationship with Nagai seemed to possibly deteriorate over the years to the point that now she wants to be her own director. Just fascinating behind the scenes stuff to me.
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>>16595464
>>16595506
Did they really hate the show though? McGillis and Gaelio's voices were intensely emotional in their last fight and during the latter's death. The whole episode is honestly one of my favorite Gundam voice jobs ever.
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>>16595524
It's called being a professional. I kinda got the feeling the Eng cast dialed it in towards the end.
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>>16595506
>>16595464
>>16595378
Way to talk out of your ass
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>>16595524
Gaelio’s VA probably didn’t hate it since he made out like a bandit since Okada liked him and his character. Meanwhile, Sakurai is a professional who did the job given to him even if he thought that Okada was being unfair with what he felt was blatant favoritism on her part to the point of altering the original scenarios (perhaps Sakurai was also promised certain things were going to happen to his character the same way that Orga’s VA was so excited because he was promised that a fight scene in a mobile suit like all the other guys).
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>>16595485
Staging a war on Earth during which no civilians were harmed to undermine the reputation of a psychotic manchild, punishing one of his own people for acting on their own, giving child soldiers the same treatment as regular soldiers and STILL giving them enough time to escape from their base. What a fucking bastard that Rustal guy is.
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>>16595543
You are free to look it up in the catalog, man. This is stuff that has been discussed on this board before, especially the Okada being uncomfortable. But if you don’t believe me here is a taste: https://desuarchive.org/m/thread/15404766/#q15404770
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>>16593913
>Why are Tekken dudes even called "good guys" when they, especially in season two, act like villains instead?

only /m/anchildren think that.
The only tekkadan guys who didn't get what they deserved was biscuit and the debris kid who mcgillis kills
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>>16595570
>>16595553

I kinda starting to think that, going over what Okada has said, that the changes made to Gaelio were her trying to give the series something resembling a hero.

> She has said she was uncomfortable writing not just season two, but the entire series. She just thought season two would bomb or something.
> Her previous enthusiasm was just her attempting to be professional and not shit on the show she's currently attached to.
> She pitched stuff for season one that would make the audience question Tekkadan's choices, like them being known for being ruthless causing people to not want to work with Kudelia. Also stuff like Naze/Eugene betraying Tekkadan. This was vetoed while Nagai said it was important the audience doesn't think Tekkadan were going down the wrong path.
> Managed to expand Gaelio's role, with him being the only living Gundam pilot by the end.
> Rallied with staff to make a better, more hopeful ending.

Really sounds like she agreed to join on because the initial elements planned were enough to hook her but didn't know Nagai was planning to go full edgelord. In a way, it's a parallel to Tekkadan joining the coup because McGillis promised them a throne only to find out too late what his plan actually was. Then Okada has her hero kill the stand-in for Nagai in a revised ending, showing her ultimate victory.
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>>16593913
Communists are always evil, OP
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>>16595554
Are we forgetting the wholesale use of illegal super weapons and refusing to let tekkaden surrender?
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>>16595554
You can't start a war and expect no civilian casualties. Look at the Zanzibar "War". Despite how short it was, civvies STILL died by the thousands.
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>>16595816
The Earth war was prolonged intentionally and fought in forest outskirts, though. The only thousands that died were military personnel and Tekkadan members.
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>>16595623
>She pitched stuff for season one that would make the audience question Tekkadan's choices, like them being known for being ruthless causing people to not want to work with Kudelia. Also stuff like Naze/Eugene betraying Tekkadan. This was vetoed while Nagai said it was important the audience doesn't think Tekkadan were going down the wrong path.
Having this would have made the show a lot better.

Overall it sounds like she should have been in charge.
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>>16593913
Misery porn
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>>16595554
>No civilian casualties

Did you forget that he started that war by bombing a building in the middle of a city? And that it was literally the first war in hundreds of years of peace and got a lot of soldiers pointlessly killed?

>He gave them enough time to escape

He didn't know about the secret tunnel.
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Rustal didn't pull that shit with the war because he was trying to do some noble goal of saving the world from McGillis. He did it because he was pissy that McGillis snubbed him by getting the credit for capturing the pirate leader and because he didn't like how fast McGillis was raising his reputation and felt it threatened his own position. The show literally spells this out as his motivation.
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>>16596031
Soldier deaths arent civilian casualties, no-one actually died in that bombing Chad was in. And he'd didn't have to know about the service tunnel, he still gave them a kindness cause he could opened fire muh sooner than the 24 hours he gave them
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>>16595807

"Illegal" weapons was pretty smart idea, actually. First season showed clearly that Tekken dont play along rules and trying to do things "honorably" along pragmatics dont end well. So what you needed was applying pragmatic approach too, cunning and deadly efficient.

Even Art of War state that its best to end war as fast as possible. There is no place for honor on battlefield and if you can ends things quicker, go for it. Only people who hate war and are aware how amoral it is in first place, understand how to wage it the most efficient way.
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Watching this now. Is Orga EVER going to stop being such a dipshit? "Oh man I'm really fucking up this kid and leading my family down a dark path, better not do anything about it or change my actions at all, this is the only waaaaaay..." All he does is make terrible decisions and brood over making terrible decisions.
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>>16596332

And it's not like Rustal was alone in using illegal tech. According to the databooks, putting AV into a mobile suit is an illegal modification. But the narrative of the show conveniently leaves this out in order to make the audience side with Tekkadan, much like Rustal controlling the media to support his side later on.

Not to mention, Tekkadan themselves killed people begging for their lives.
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>>16596027
This isn't Fafner though.
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>>16596379
How far in are you? Because he gets worse and worse and never stops.
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>>16595554
Rustal, as ultimate authority of the Arianrhod fleet, was ultimately in charge of the Dort massacre, which Gjallarhorn themselves engineered from the start. But I'm sure you'll make up some bullshit reason as to why slaughtering civilians (that you yourself armed as an excuse) is a-ok.
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>>16595554
What the fuck are you talking about

>and STILL giving them enough time to escape from their base

Except he didn't though, he only did that to make it seem like he was a good guy to the media. If you payed attention throughout multiple fights between him and Tekkadan he ignored them trying to surrender plus he used illegal weapons to make sure he always won, all of this conveniently hidden from the media

>What a fucking bastard that Rustal guy is
Yeah you pretty much summed it up right there perfectly
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>>16596380
>But the narrative of the show conveniently leaves this out in order to make the audience side with Tekkadan,
Because it doesn't factor into anything.
>one side uses illegal weaponry KNOWINGLY breaking war protocol for his own gain
>one side uses illegal weaponry for survival
Its hard to construct a grey morality when on side is so hilariously black that its hard to take seriously that's why Nagai ultimately failed.
>Not to mention, Tekkadan themselves killed people begging for their lives.
People who gleefully killed children and felt no remorse. Even Crank just saw it as doing his job as a soldier and he was the most sympathetic officer. Even Victory humanized the Zanscare by seemingly have them reflect on the fact that they were murdering children no such thing happens in IBO the character who actually gave a damn about that was Macky and he's portrayed as the antagonist.

Even for edge for edge sake the morality scale on this show is fucked and is as bad as AGE.
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>>16596379
Orga does try he even [/spoiler] tries to double cross Mcgillis to protect Tekkadan. But every time he tries to do something good the guys in Tekkadan stop him and make him go through what he was going to do which is usually the bad thing
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>>16596408
It's even more damning when the one breaking the laws on illegal weapons for shits and giggles is the side that wrote those same laws.
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>>16596406
I hate his stupid fucking coat. His arms are in the sleeves for like 15% of the time he's on screen. What a fucking jerkoff.
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>>16595464
>McGillis's VA thought Gaelio being given more of a role than he was originally slated to have was unprofessional

God forbid a project change during production. Everything should stay exactly as written in the original brief, right?

Professional artists are used to the scope of their work changing, and don't pitch a public fit about it.
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>>16596397
Half-way through season 2, just dealt with the completely out of nowhere and seemingly irrelevant ancient mobile armor. I guess it's silly to ask at this point.

>>16596410
Great, good. All these kids are going to die. Sorry, Atra, it's not gonna work out.

Anyone gonna talk about how having an army of child soldiers is a little fucked up? Anyone at all? Or rather, anyone want to bring it up and not somehow think it's a good thing? They're really dedicated and focused on war because it's ALL THEY KNOW you stupid cunts, these people need help, stop being okay with this.
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>>16593913

>Oh so its forbidden to kill one of the guys from "main characters groups" but its completely okay to slaughter unnamed, poor pilots from Galls Horn side? Because they oppose "protagonists" so they are automatically bad guys? Its completely okay to give long scene and crying people for ONE dude and just second or two, if anything for some pilot just doing his duty and truly believing in order and honor?

I can remember this addressed only in The Invisibles and Battle Royale 2 of all the stuff I've read/seen. Also probably War and Peace, but I'm not really sure.
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>>16596428
Yeah I mean look how well Gundam SEED Destiny and 00 turned when they changed shit mid-production? Or Code Geass or EVOL or Aldnoah Zero....
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>>16596423
Orga wears his the exact same way.
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>>16596430
>Anyone gonna talk about how having an army of child soldiers is a little fucked up?

Kudelia from the very first episode.
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>>16596439
Considering there are dozen more project that was changed for better in mid-production that even its creator is too ashamed to admit it was stupid so yeah, I'd say this one changed not for the worst at least.
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>>16596464
>I'd say this one changed not for the worst at least.
Of course it was for the worst because Vidar was an entirely pointless character on par with Neo
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>>16596466
t. brainlet
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>>16593913
The only sadness I felt for Tekkadan as they were getting picked apart was the fact all their Gundams were destroyed (especially Flauros) in the process.

What a waste of perfectly good tech.
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>>16596428
I guess you liked those first couple episodes of Code Geass R2 then, right? Did you like the radical shift that 00’s season two took versus season one because elevens bitched about it not being Gundam enough? Did you like the narrative of SEED Destiny devolve and lose any sort of promise that it’s opening Break the World arc had once Shinn goes through his transition from CE’s Kamille to CE’s Jerid? This stuff happens yes, you are right it’s just part of the business but changing what is there isn’t always for the better for the story being told. Unfortunentaly we can’t mind meld with the directors/writers to totally gain a sense of what they originally planned and how it could have looked up on the screen. Even though I wasn’t a fan of the series, I wouldn’t mind reading a “Glory of the Losers” style manga retelling of IBO, if only to see what full original uncompromised vision that Nagai had. If it’s crap, fair enough, but in scenarios like this I can’t help but wonder what the alternative is (even if it could be worse in some ways). It’s no secret that IBO’s production had some problems.
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>>16596510
I don't follow your logic. Because I'm aware that long-running projects change in scope and direction far more often than they remain on a single constant track (hence it isn't "unprofessional", and it is far more unprofessional to publicly whine about it), I must therefore like the specific changes made during the runs of shows I haven't actually seen (barely made it through the first episode of 00 it was so boring)?

TV series are collaborative projects undertaken over periods of (often) years, and aired in a way that there is constant feedback to writer/directing/acting talent. Expecting one person's pre-production vision to survive intact is lunacy. Go track down some first drafts of novels if that's the "uncompromised" art you're looking for.
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>>16593913
>kill a bunch of enemy soldiers
>"bad guys"
>melt babies and break international war treaties
>good guys
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>>16596430
They were used for labor before that, Orga even said that if anybody wants to leave then they can leave fuck Takaki even does leave without any issues. These kids are soldiers because they believe in what they're fighting for not because somebody's telling them too
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>>16596664
Not even that. They stay because Orga pays them really well and gives better benefits than anything else they could find and doesn't do shit like beat them or make them take 50/50 survival rate backalley surgeries just to work for him. Not everyone on tekkadan is even a ms pilot. They have a ton of mechanics and shit too.
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>>16596529
>Expecting one person's pre-production vision to survive intact is lunacy.
These are all changes that occurred during production
>>
It's a shit anime because it has shit animation.
End of the story.
>>
>>16596907
No shit.
>>
>>16593913
They still got Iok though.

F
>>
>>16596408
>Think of the children.
That doesn't work here you know, they've come to a world of dog eating dog, they don't get special treatment just because they are kids.
>>
>>16597053

They only guy in Gall side that really deserved what he got.
>>
>>16596408
Rustal wasn't alone in taking decisions in Gjallarhorn back then. By the time he became the sole head of the organization he managed to find compromise with all sides of the conflict and stir the changes which Tekkadan themselves fought for since S1.

McGillis' idea for reform was a reinstatement of the original status quo which he thought had become corrupted, where he also gets to be the king who decides what is wrong and what is just. He might have been serious about the whole king of Mars bullshit he promised Tekkadan, however considering his record until that point it's safe to assume he was just manipulating them like everyone else up to that point. The collective decision of Gjallarhorn to ignore the special status of Bael thus setting the first stone in reforming the organization was the least of McGillis' expectations.
>>
>>16597101
Iok did nothing wrong.
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>>16597207
Iok wouldn't agree with you.

All his men died because of him.
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>>16597135
>McGillis' idea for reform was a reinstatement of the original status quo which he thought had become corrupted, where he also gets to be the king who decides what is wrong and what is just

McGillis's plan for reform was always the second part of this sentence. Removing corruption was never a real concern for him beyond getting rid of the bad men who abused him.

He wasn't lying to Tekkadan just like he wasn't lying to Almiria. His whole plan was based on power going to those willing and able to bootstraps themselves out of the gutter by force. He believed in Tekkadan even when Orga had given in and was trying to surrender. They would have had Mars if he'd won (he could never win of course).

>it's safe to assume he was just manipulating them like everyone else up to that point

The twist with McGillis was that he wasn't a manipulator masterminding some grand scheme. His plan was childishly, horrifyingly simple. He genuinely loved the 8 year old girl. He thought an overwhelming majority of the world would bow at his feet once he hooked up to Bael.
>>
>>16595623
>Really sounds like she agreed to join on because the initial elements planned were enough to hook her but didn't know Nagai was planning to go full edgelord. In a way, it's a parallel to Tekkadan joining the coup because McGillis promised them a throne only to find out too late what his plan actually was. Then Okada has her hero kill the stand-in for Nagai in a revised ending, showing her ultimate victory.
I really like this interpretation of events. It really fits with Okada's works being all about the emotional catharsis.
>>
>>16597242
>He genuinely loved the 8 year old
Who doesn't

>He thought an overwhelming majority of the world would bow at his feet once he hooked up to Bael
And his plan would have worked if Gjallarhorn wasn't so corrupt that they didn't even follow the very basic rules and ideals of their own system
>>
>>16597258
If they weren't corrupt they won't even accept any power-grabbing armed coup in the first place regardless any myth or superstition things that they had.
>>
Gaeliobros where are we at

1/100 kimaris vidar fucking when
>>
>>16597258
The basic rules and ideals of Gjallarhorn were to protect the Earth (and colonies) from war and strife, not to follow the whims of whoever controls the biggest, toughest robot they had during the Calamity War.
>>
>>16596406
>>16596423
I don't get this look. Who decided it's supposed to look badass? I just associate it with a typical romance scene where the meek girl is cold so the guy lets her borrow his jacked, and she wears it as such.
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>>16593913

They are the "good guys" by virtue of the simple fact that almost everyone else are raging hypocritical assholes. Almost every bad thing Tekkaden did, most of their enemies did to, took it a lot farther, were trying to do it to them, and were completely shameless about it. Tekkaden might be unlikable, violent dicks but even the organization trying to "maintain" peace act like comic book supervillans.
>>
>>16597275
>The basic rules and ideals of Gjallarhorn were to protect the Earth (and colonies) from war and strife

Which they seemed to forget about repeatedly.
>>
IBO in a nutshell.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yYmSRW5ra3U
>>
Can we at least agree that Barbatos looks cool?
>>
>>
>>
>>16597270

The most ugly design in whole IBO? Please no.

But I actually liked Galigali, from the start. Hoped for him to turn up a hero and he did. His girlfriend took the chance to kill Mika instead however but still.
>>
>>16597394

All Gundams in IBO looks cool. I prefer Flauros and Vidar tho, too bad they barely got screentime.
>>
>>16597394
They do look cool, but if only some future engineer finds a way to cover that thin waist without sacrificing agility, I would be even more happier. I am already happy with what we've got, however.
>>
>>16597609

Why cant just add armor layers around it?

Besides, its not like anybody aim at those joint, right?
>>
>>16598607
I mean, one aimed shot at the mid section and you have one bisected Gundam.
>>
>>16598615

Yes but nobody aim here, right? Im sure there is a reason for that.
>>
>>16593913

Tekkadan were just minding their own business in season 1 when Gjallarhorn decided they needed to all die because they happened to be around Kudelia, who they also thought needed to die for having funny ideas about Mars not being oppressed that they didn't like.

Yeah I'm shocked Mika doesn't hestiate to kill the assholes that wanting him and his buddies all dead for being inconvienient to them politically, while also spending every breath insulting them for circumstances beyond their control.

I really hope you all aren't such wimps in real life that if some asshole approched you on the street and demanded your death you'd just let them kill you.
>>
>>16594093

I'm well beyond teenager and I still wish I could just stick it to status quo and fight all those rich assholes keeping me down.
>>
>>16596380
>Not to mention, Tekkadan themselves killed people begging for their lives.

Who exactly? Aside from Jasley, who didn't so much surrender as attempt to call it a draw and try to walk off still feeling like a big shot even though Tekkadan was crushing him and he picked the entire fight in the first place.

Everyone else, all the pirates that surrendered Tekkadan spared.

Carta never begged for her life. Having a breakdown about how you aren't having the fantasy knight duel you envisioned isn't surrendering.

Nor is going "Space rats shouldn't be beating me REEEEE" like basically everyone else.
>>
>>16596529

I think the point is plot rewrites aren't always bad, but ones for stupid or unprofessional reasons like deciding you suddenly want to self insert through a character and rewriting the show to make them the messiah, or because the Gundam fans don't think it's Gundam enough, almost always are.

A rewrite because you have the hots for a VA is not a good reason to make them almost singlehandedly change the course of the finale (because the whole endgame would be different of Gaelio had actually died)
>>
>>16598721
Wasn't there some Martian officefag who was starting shit in S2 that Orga had Mika put down who was begging? Though he didn't warrant any sympathy to begin with.
>>
>>16598748

That was Takaki, though Mika gave him his gun and left it at his descretion. Orga wasn't even there.

And again, like with Jasley he wasn't geniunely giving himself up as much trying to bullshit his way out of the situation so he could get off and they weren't buying it.

"I totally had good reasons for selling you all out so you should just let me get away with it" isn't a surrender or begging for mercy.
>>
>>16598760
I think he means the guy who tried to have Kudelia killed.
>>
>>16598698
Ahab reactor waves.
>>
>>16598770

Oh him? Same thing. He bullshits some stuff that isn't fooling anyone, then secretly calls for Gjallarhon to come take out Tekkadan who refuse, then his own men, only Akihiro answers because he's intercepted the call, giving them just cause to treat him like an enemy trying to kill them because that's exactly what he's doing. Then Mika shoots him.

The rest of his men meanwhile who Tekkadan attacked premptively, they're all just tied up or held at gunpoint, with one poor bastard clubbed unconsious by Akihiro but still quite alive. Just their boss, who lied to their faces and tried to have guys come to kill them under the pretense of meeting in peace.

So yeah not really seeing what's heinous about Tekkadan here unless you find killing a few assholes who tried to kill them, and none of whom actually surrendered to them, a horrific crime.
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>>16598728
The why doesn't matter if the end result is good.

Gaelio taking down McGillis is great start to finish.
>>
Post more Barbatos
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>>16598812
I can only imagine the HOLY SHIT going off in /m's minds when someone installs the ZERO System inside Barbatos.
Yea, imagine that thing inside of a Demon Wolf King.
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>>16598837

I'm pretty sure Zero System, plus the AV implant would just flatout make any pilot who attempted to use it have their head explode Scanners style.
>>
>>16598795
>Gaelio taking down McGillis is great start to finish.
No its not because Vidar doesn't do anything throughout the season
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>>16598853
A thing he does is bad because he never does anything?

Vidar/Gaelio's role is to mentor Julieta and thwart McGillis. I'm not sure what more he should have done, unless you wanted him to team rocket his way into a fight every episode?
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>>16598701
>I really hope you all aren't such wimps in real life that if some asshole approched you on the street and demanded your death you'd just let them kill you.

Thats police work. Best solution would be call for help and/or nearby officer.
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>>16598793
So it doesn't matter that he was surrendered and begging for his life? As along as anyone tried to attacked me they have to pay with their life? I guess Rustal was right for pulling the trigger.
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>>16598947
>A thing he does is bad because he never does anything?
His character des not amount of anything
>Vidar/Gaelio's role is to mentor Julieta
So his role is even more pointless. Guess what Neo's role in GSD wasn't worthless because he mentored Stella.
>>
>>16598947
What the fuck are you talking about? He doesn't do anything and his role could have been done by a random character that's how pointless Vidar was.
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>>16598947

This. You got Gaelio's character in the first season. He's a wide eyed ignorant naive fool who gets played hard and betrayed in a ruthless manner by his best friend.

You get more of McGillis in the second season than you do in the first because it focuses on his character as the antagonist to contrast the rivalry. Gaelio's agenda and justifications are already there for you to go from. If you recall McGillis did jack shit in the first series similarly until the end just the same.
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>>16598947

>Vidar/Gaelio's role is to mentor Julieta

It never really came off as that. His role in the plot to her came off as the voice of consequence and moral conscience for dabbling in powers not meant for men and women.

She reminds him of Ein, doggedly trying to impress her superior she respects seeing how dangerous and closed minded she is.

When she decides after being wounded in combat with Mikazuki she wasn't going to undergo the AV surgery and pursue power as he did out of necessity, it makes him smile out of pride for her rather than in himself. (actually a nice touch given he comments on his own pride earlier in the second season)
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>>16599345
I'm talking about the second season of IBO, anon. Perhaps you should watch it before talking a load of nonsense.
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>>16599401
That's what mentoring is.
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>>16599411

Nope, what Gaelio did was what a parent, family member or friend does.

Mentoring is training someone and advising them by definition.
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>>16598812

I wish this sketch was actually in the show or Rex's proportions actually supported dramatic articulation.
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>>16596529
>Expecting one person's pre-production vision to survive intact is lunacy
Seem to work out fine for Tomino with G-Reco minus a few butthurt people over the whole Aida/Cahill thing, now whether or not that was something you consider a good thing or not is up to you
>>
>>16597394
MS design in IBO was pretty baller all around, though I only wish that there was a little more variety to the designs but then you can only go so far with most of the suits having similar frames (barring a few exceptions).
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>>16595104
>But still, how can I even watch show where I fully support antagonists and hope for protagonists to lose?

Crest/Banner of the Stars.
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>>16596503
>perfectly good tech
Not with those designs :DDD
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>>16595137
>to make a gundam series that was gritty with a more realistic view of war

Which they completely failed at, hence why the show is regarded as garbage.

>>16596428
>Everything should stay exactly as written in the original brief, right?

Yes of course they should. Executive meddling is always terrible. If the writers don't have any professional integrity and respect for their work then why should I the viewer?
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>>16599441
Are you going to break out the dictionary next you autist?
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>>16599763
>Yes of course they should. Executive meddling is always terrible. If the writers don't have any professional integrity and respect for their work then why should I the viewer?

Who said anything about executive meddling? Writers are just as capable of changing their minds while working on a project.

And that's what happened with IBO. Other writers overruled Nagai when he wasn't getting the responses he imagined his grimdark shit would get (people like Tekkadan? oh no no no!), and the show went in different directions when certain characters worked well (Gaelio) and others (Carta) just pissed people off.
>>
>>16596043
>>16596043

really doesn't matter when he brought about a better change than mcgillis would have if he won
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>>16596503
They probably were still salvagable though, except maybye flauros
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>>16599830
>used as bait against a mobile armor
>salvaged centuries later just to end up blown apart in space
Flauros had a hard operational history.
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>>16599821
>Who said anything about executive meddling? Writers are just as capable of changing their minds while working on a project.
So its either executive meddling or the writers had no idea what they were doing?
>and the show went in different directions when certain characters worked well (Gaelio)
Kek. His character arc completed in season 1 you could tell this is true because he had nothing to do in season 2. At least with Neo it was largely because of the character's popularity and with Lockon because they established he had a twin brother from the get go but Vidars survival is all on Okada being wet for the VA
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>>16599409
>I'm talking about the second season of IBO, anon
So you're talking out your ass.
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>>16599391
How does that make Vidar any less of a pointless character?
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>>16599972

This. Gaelio showing back up at the end to ruin Mcgillis isn't the problem. It's him standing around ominiously in a mask for the whole season before that, doing nothing beyond 2 minutes of killing a few rebels and standing menacingly on a cliff during the Hashmal part (and he didn't even fucking help against it) before finally revealing himself, at which point he instantly sheds the Vidar identity.

Like said above, Gaelio could have just been hiding out in Rustal's ship until episode 43 and nothing would have changed.

Hell it would have been BETTER because it least it would have surprised the audience if he returned right the fuck out of nowhere when it seemed Macky had nearly won.

Instead we were just wating for the other shoe to drop with him being around the whole show just waiting for his plot cue. Obviously the guy with Gali's voice stalking Mcgillis was him. The only actual surprise was he had Ein installed in his Gundam.
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>>16599967
>So its either executive meddling or the writers had no idea what they were doing?

Changing your mind isn't the same as having no idea what you're doing. It's the opposite. They saw something wasn't working and fixed it.

I don't know what show you watched where Gaelio had nothing to do in season two. He did as much as McGillis in season one.
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>>16599972

The same way that McGillis is pointless in the first series.

Why does McGillis wear a mask and why did he do jackshit in the entire first series until the last few episodes? It's the same fucking thing.
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>>16599972
He accomplishes a lot. By what definition is he pointless? Was Mika pointless to you, too? Orga and Naze?
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>>16599816
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>>16599972

Because he exists to be the consequences of Macky's actions from the first series and gains even more motivation in the second to actually put him in his place and kill him finally.

Exactly like that guy above even said, both characters contrast the amount of time the other gets and the one wearing the mask in the end gets to win.
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>>16600019
>the one wearing the mask in the end gets to win.

He stopped wearing it by then though.
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>>16600029
Vidar got shot in the head but Gaelio survived.

McGillis got killed, but Montag keeps on living in Almyria
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>>16600008
>The same way that McGillis is pointless in the first series.
Not really. McGillis did a lot in the first series and it established how delusional he was from the get go.
>>16600012
>He accomplishes a lot.
He doesn't. Hell he literally abandones his new suit and accomplishs nothing.
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>>16600019
>Because he exists to be the consequences of Macky's actions from the first series and gains even more motivation in the second to actually put him in his place and kill him finally.
So any character could have taken this position. That's really bad.
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>>16600007
>They saw something wasn't working and fixed it.
And by doing so made it worse and by extension made the first series even more pointless. So basically the writers are retarded is what you're saying.
>>16600007
>I don't know what show you watched where Gaelio had nothing to do in season two
He didn't. The fact that youre struggling with thus is proof enough.
>>
>one year later and people are STILL mad that Garma killed Char
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>>16600007
>He did as much as McGillis in season one.
The first season established Mackys character, show he move his pawns and manipulate the scenes all cultivating to a very satisfying revelation. Vidar is comparison doesn't really do anything until the last 3 episode where he reveals himself and then gets his revenge. That's it. Not particularly satisfying and his character amounts to nothing hell he doesn't even give a shit that his sister has gone insane.
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>>16600043

This.
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>>16600037

Any character could have done McGillis' role in the first season? There were several corrupt Gjallarhorn officials the same way.
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>>16600043
>people mad that they brought a shitty character back for a meme
It low and behold IBO is one giant meme in Japan now.
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>>16600062
>Any character could have done McGillis' role in the first season?
Nope. Specifically his actions carry with him into the second and It explains his actions as a result.
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>>16599821
>Other writers overruled Nagai when he wasn't getting the responses he imagined his grimdark shit would get (people like Tekkadan? oh no no no!

This still baffles me. Did he really think people would hate Tekkadan for killing a few assholes that attacked them first and would more identify with the rich noblity that looks down on common folk instead?
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>>16600160
Ein was neither rich nor an asshole.
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>>16599972

That's why he gets to kill Isurugi and McGillis
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>>16600168

Ein was also crazy and unreasonable and spent the entire season raging and attacking them because they and Kudelia didn't just let be good slave class and let Gjallarhorn kill them in episode 1.
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>>16600259

Gaelio did that. Not Vidar.

What was the point of the Vidar disguise, just to stand around doing nothing for 20 episodes before taking it off almost as soon as he did.
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>>16600259
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>>16600321

i think /m/ was in collective suspension of disbelief when McGillis said that in the episode

all the whilst the Aldnoah Zero faggot kept reminding everyone Gali was a Slaine clone even as he was winning
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>>16600160
>Did he really think people would hate Tekkadan for killing a few assholes

Liking or hate them was irrelevant. The of that Carta fight was to show that they unreasonable savages with no respect for the enemy, straying further away from ever being normal people. This has been Carta as stubborn and conceited as she was, was never an asshole to then, She came up to them out of sincerest respect as an enemy and here comes Mika shitting all over that. While everyone ones cheering for the so called heroes doing something so brutal and uncalled for. If you all you wanted more savage as fuck Barbatos, you could have still got that through and honorable duel. Then that wouldn't Mika's character devolve completely into mindless murder migdet like that's okay.

>>16600312
Ein's entire beef, even though he wasn't there for the fight, was literally "Why don't you little shits have any honor or respect!?" Yes Cranked asked to be killed upom his defeat but Ein's point still stands, Mika cuts of his final words and kills him dead right then and thinks nothing about it. Ein would have better hammered this in if he had actually gotten more battles to clash with Mika. With how Ein turned out, it's another reason why Mika's character continues to be so shit and one dimensional
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>>16600443

Gjallarhon's idea of honor and respect was loudly yelling about how honorable and respectful they were while doing nothing but the opposite (except for ironically enough, Mcgillis). They were proud honorable knights, so long as they were on top and winning.

Ein decides in his final battle to go try to smash Kudellia, an unarmed civilian just because she had the gall to not let them kill her way back when which started this whole trouble. Very honorable that Ein. His whole motivation is that Crank died and not them, and how dare they not die because Crank is more important.

And as for Carta. Fool Mika once. He did the whole honorable duel thing with Crank. He might have thought it was stupid, but he did it. And he won. And Crank as he died said that it was meaningless because Gjallarhorn won't play by their own rules if they aren't winning. And sure enough they kept on coming.

So fuck that shit, he's not gonna fall for it again. If he'd waited the 30 minutes like Carta asked then Gali would have arrived to reinforce her, despite it supposedly being 3 on 3. Carta's men's first reaction upon them starting to lose was to attempt to blow the track. They'd have to be stupid to trust Carta, after all they'd been through with Gjallarhorn's "honor"

Plus like Azee says Carta's only doing the duel because she's outnumbered. She wasn't trying to play the honor card when she had the numbers advantage she just tried to crush them.

Gjallarhorn are bunch of rich elitists playing knight, who will immediately drop that if they start to lose.

FUCK.THEM.
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>>16600644
>Ein decides in his final battle to go try to smash Kudellia, an unarmed civilian just because she had the gall to not let them kill her way back when which started this whole trouble

That's the problem with Ein. Graze Ein is isn't even Ein at that point because they take away his humanity completely and just make him mad with power . Saying that he never had honor or respect because how he was in the end is wrong, because he would have never took any of those mortal blows for Gaelio and that other office who treated him like shit without hesitation. Not to mention at that point in the season Kudelia is far from civilian, she as the Maiden of Revolution, seen as Tekkadan's leader. She was fair game.
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>>16600644
Too bad Carta didn't have any Dainsleifs in her Fleet, would have shortened the first season sooo much. Of course they're illegal, but why didn't we get any info about them until season 2? RETCON?
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>>16593913
cuz mikas a badass who doesnt give a FUCK bro
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>>16600644
Carta could have just blown the track in the first place.

she also caught them with their pants down anyways.
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>>16600733
They weren't mentioned until season 2
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>>16600758
This.
Only introduced in Season 2.
Plot Hole for Season 1 created
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>>16600762
What plothole?
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>>16600034
>He doesn't. Hell he literally abandones his new suit and accomplishs nothing.

You realise that Vidar was just a mask, right? He and Gaelio are the exact same guy (and Vidar and Kimaris are the same frame).

Did you expect him to kill McGillis without revealing who he was?
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>>16600768
Why didn't Carta disgrace herself by using banned weaponary to stop a rag tag group of space rats breaking through her elite Earth defence force blockade?

Why didn't she bombard Tekkadan during the honor duels she tried to have on Earth?

Why didn't she destroy an entire island belonging to one of the Earth blocs just to stop the mercenary group that was legally being sheltered there?

Carta was an idiot and a monster but she wasn't retarded enough to break the dainsleifs out of the armory where everyone would see her.
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>>16600049
>he doesn't even give a shit that his sister has gone insane.

She's 8 years old she'll get over it (as long as that sicko McGillis didn't actually fuck her).
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>>16600443
>This has been Carta as stubborn and conceited as she was, was never an asshole to then

She abused her authority to attack them when they were peacefully residing under the protection of two of the earth blocs, simply because they damaged her non-existent reputation.

You don't get to cry foul about people breaking the rules of honorable combat when you started the fight in the first place.Chat shit get hit, bitch.
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>>16601153

The thing that gets me is that Tekkaden already demonstrated to her that they don't give a shit about dueling etiquette. I might have been a bit more sympathetic to her if she was not a hypocritical dumbass.
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>>16601141
>monster

She's not a monster, she's chuuni and really cute.
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>>16601141
Because She played war with a very strict and naive honor code. That's why she didn't do any of that double-crossing and still kept trying to run pointless formations. She not hypocrital scum, She's green as fuck and that was all she was taught. Same with as Iok, same as Gaelio when he first fought tekkadan Which was his fist live battle even though it was a skirmish. Differnce between her and Iok, who were both the youngest members of the Seven Stars taking over as their families' heads from practically no experience, is that Iok at least had Rustal's example to follow even though he kept misinterpreting Rustal's intentions and fucking up. Carta literally had nothing to take war tactical advice from, She was either to stubborn to ask for it, there was no one around her with experience to give her knowledge, or the position was shoved on too fast on her way before she was actually ready and they still told her sent her to command a battle with her lack of actual battle experience. She abused her power once and atracked the island, and was disgraced for it in the eyes of the council. That's why she decided to homestly try and regain that honor by staging a duel and That's why Gaelio came rushing to the sight. Not to help her fight with a sneak atrack, but to stop her and bring her back because she wasn't and she was doing was stupid.
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Check mate atheists.
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>>16602702
>Inb4 Antagonists =/= Villains
Good thing I nipped that bud.
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>>16602655
Tekkadan attacked and killed Gjallarhorn officiers and illegally landed on Earth. The whole "they were protected by the economic block" thing would fall apart because the economic block was harboring criminals.
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>>16600727
>Not to mention at that point in the season Kudelia is far from civilian, she as the Maiden of Revolution, seen as Tekkadan's leader. She was fair game.

Might be technically fair, but that's still using a mobile suit to smash an unarmed teenage girl, who was just a symbol more than anything.

That's hardly an honorable thing to do.
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>>16600733
>Too bad Carta didn't have any Dainsleifs in her Fleet, would have shortened the first season sooo much

That would have just made her and Gjallarhorn look even worse because their rep was already in the toilet nevermind using a fucking illegal and classified inhuman weapon on them.

At least Rustal made sure to frame Mcgillis for using them first.
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>>16601319
>The thing that gets me is that Tekkaden already demonstrated to her that they don't give a shit about dueling etiquette

Not really. They did follow the etiquette with Crank as mention before, and the reason they're so disdainful of it and gleefully ignore it the second time is because they won according to the rules and Gjallarhorn ignored them anyway because they weren't going to let some honor code stop them from silencing Kudelia.

Carta just complained about them not letting her strike her cool poses before starting battle, which is honestly kind of fucking stupid and not part of any honor or warcode that you get to show off and the opponent has to let you.
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>>16602702
>>16602706

Antagonists are named as such for opposing protagonists aka main characters of the story. Doesnt mean that they have to be morally bad for that.

I would go with Rustal anytime. Good commander that Galls needed.
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>>16600168
He was fucking annoying. Okada kept him around because she liked the VA too. S1's endgame was going to be completely different with everyone dying.
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>>16593913

They have a heroic sounding leitmotif.

I mean listen to it:
https://youtu.be/mSZrH76B0mo

But yes. They are bastards who could have made a change, but instead tried to satisfy petty desires. Though we can sympathize with them wanting to be happy, their base selfishness makes them unsympathetic and deserving of what they got.

It's a shame though, because they could have been better people. But instead of looking at Eugene and Akihiro for leadership, they went to the dirtbags Orga and Mika.
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>>16603105

Me too. Rustal cared for his people and tried to make the solar system a better place through restoring order.
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>>16603284
>S1's endgame was going to be completely different with everyone dying.

I'm so glad they didn't do something this retarded.
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>>16603291

Anyone else feel there's some good parallels to Cobra Kai?
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>>16603305
People always boil down Nagai's vision as "He just wanted to kill everyone" but did he ever releasing anything with in detail plot points he wanted to change? IBO was suppose to be a band of brothers kinda story, so there's no real reason why killing of everyone notable over the course of the series wouldn't work, especially in Gundam. I would like to hear about how he wanted IBO to go before constant compromises and infighting.
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>>16603697

Something I remember hearing about was the writer's saying that at the end, Orga's speeches were supposed to piss off the audience. This is my guess on what IBO was originally supposed to be, provided it was just a 25 episode series.

It was supposed to be a band of brothers-type story, but Tekkadan weren't supposed to be seen as noble heroes or anything. When Nagai compares them to the Shinsengumi, he begins talking about them going down the path to their own destruction. Orga is the lord figure, while Tekkadan are the soldiers who would follow him even after his death. But if his speeches were supposed to piss us off, then this shouldn't be a good thing. It would be more of a cult of personality, which is reportedly one of the ideas Nagai had that attracted Okada to the project.

I think the thing is a lot of the implications of Tekkadan's growth were supposed to be more overt. That they are in fact child soldiers. Child soldiers are easier to indoctrinate than adults and will fight without fear of being crippled or killed because they don't yet fully understand what that means. Even them working as PMCs to escape poverty has roots in the real world issue, and Orga telling them they could leave if they wanted to ignores that for a lot of these kids it would mean returning to the street. But Ogawa said the show had to appear to be black and white, which I feel led to them trying to portray Tekkadan as more shonen-like heroes complete with multiple utterings of namaka.
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>>16603813
Orga's speech in the finale of S1 did make me think of something ISIS would say.
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>>16603813
So basically a mix of Band of Brothers and Lord of the Flies kinda thing. I always got the impression at the beginning that Orga was suppose be to constantly making shit choices through out the whole operations getting lots of them killed, pushing tensions to point they stage a mutiny and everything falls apart because they couldn't function like they thought they could. I would have prefered that far more than what we got.
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>>16603813

Yeah, that's where the show fucked up, because it couldn't decide what it wanted to be. Like, I wanted to fucking strangle Ride and the writers at the end of S1 for portraying the kids' struggle as something noble and positive. It wasn't. It was fucking terrible. But the use of music, the characters' reactions and the results of their actions were all portrayed as something great, even if the kids were actually doing something fucking horrible towards themselves.

This constant value dissonance is why IBO ended up being such a schizofrenic mess. Well, that and the fact that this whole child soldiers' thing was never going to work out because the medium is way too childish to give the subject matter the weight it needs.
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>>16603881
Merribit was the only adult present during Orga's speech in the S1 finale and she was the only one horrified by what she had heard.
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>>16603881
I think it did work out pretty well. Tekkadan were self-destructive, but they didn't realize this until it was far too late or until after the fact. At the time they thought they were making good, smart choices and believed everything would work out if they kept on course. IBO is their point of view on the matter.

Like, if you watch Cobra Kai there's a scene where Johnny retells the first Karate Kid movie as he remembers it. Naturally, it makes himself look like the victim while leaving out a lot of the shit he and his friends did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZxhX_nOoiQ

We could almost say that what we were given is just Ride, years later, recounting what happened as he saw it.

Also, Naze would be hung by the nuts by any real women's shelter.
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>>16603909
I think the problem was more with the antagonists being retarded than anything else.

>Also, Naze would be hung by the nuts by any real women's shelter.
I felt like IBO was told with some kind of dry humor.

This guy is great he saved these women and gave them a job that no man was desperate enough to do, he even brings their newborn children with them on fights and smuggling runs! In order to protect him they act as his somewhat pseudo harem which is totally necessary for reasons and they have a healthy relationship of nearly worshipping him.
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>>16603881
>Yeah, that's where the show fucked up, because it couldn't decide what it wanted to be
This. Jesus Christ that Carta scene embodies everything wrong with the show. How the hell are we suppose to feel anything but contempt for her when the show spares no expense of showing what a fucking idiot she is? How the hell are we suppose to feel that Tekkadan is wrong when they're just responding as humans do we they lose a loved one? The show is a thematic mess because everyone who is oppose to Tekkadan were irredeemable so its hard to see from any sort of lens othee than there's. 00, mainly the first season, did a good job of showing that CB weren't the "good guys" and the people who oppose them were just naturally reacting to their ambiguous attacks hence why you saw people rooting for Graham taking them down whereas unless you just outright despise Tekkadan for personal reasons there's no way you can support GH.
>>
>16603295
>16603105
Not even worth a (you)
>>
That Orga & Tekkadan are sort-of in the right but taking things too far/down a bad path is a strength of the show, not a weakness.

It sounds like some here wanted Tekkadan to either be pure heroes or bloodthirsty savages, and anything in between must surely be a mistake. I'm sure glad that isn't the show we got (for the millionth time).

Surely we are capable of having nuanced responses to the actions of characters. It doesn't have to be a black and white "these guys are 100% bad, these guys are 100% good" moral fairytale for children.
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>>16603998
>unless you just outright despise Tekkadan for personal reasons there's no way you can support GH.
Because they were actually just making everything worse. >>16603904

Carta was just stupid. Dort everyone was evil and fucking stupid. On mars everyone was evil and/or stupid.
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>>16603981
They dial Naze back a lot in the second season to make the situation seem less sleazy but then Lafter gets her backstory and it's blatant grooming of a vulnerable underage girl.

Unironically brilliant.
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>>16604019
This is another reason why Rustal is well received in S2, He's like the only one feels
like neither of these things and is actually written like a gundam character would be, not just made from the token tropes of one.
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>>16604019
And yet I know a lot of viewers who saw him as a saint. We even had JPN Twitter screaming with rage over it.

... TFW Iok killed someone who'd be considered a monster IRL
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>>16604032
This was meant for>>16604016
My bad
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>>16604032
I really liked how after his friend died, we got that scene where he talks about honoring Galen by not throwing away everything to pursue revenge. Complete opposite of what Orga had Tekkadan believe.
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>>16604016
>Because they were actually just making everything worse.
Except things were already bad. They didn't make anything already worse than they already were.
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>>16604032
>This is another reason why Rustal is well received in S2,
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>>16604076
>>16603904
>>
>>16604048
>by not throwing away everything to pursue revenge.
>Uses illegal WMD to set an example on Tekkadan after they've raised the white flag
So we've pretty much come to the conclusion that Rustalfags are a joke?
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>>16604079
Why are you quoting a post that I already quoted? Nothing Tekkaden did made the situation worse rather it was GHs own i interference that did because they agitated the true problem.
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>>16603998

I think that part of the problem is that GHorn is supposed to a honorable peacekeeping organization, but instead they shady assholes who cause half the problems in the show. I mean seriously, they send their soldiers to assassinate a little girl, false flag and massacre protesters, start wars between economic blocks, get chummy with war profiteers and pirates, use banned weaponry like it's going out of style, constantly violate they laws of war they are supposed to enforce, could care less about pedophiles, and always throw a massive bitch fit when things don't go their way. Yet, somehow I'm supposed to believe that they really are the "good" guys all along. Look, I know that Tekkaden are violent, annoying, little shits but FUCK GJALLARHORN!
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>>16604039
>And yet I know a lot of viewers who saw him as a saint. We even had JPN Twitter screaming with rage over it.
Its almost like they wrote him as a likable character and not a scumbag. Implications are just that implications but the show doesn't explicitly show or say that he treats the girls poorly or that they're forced to be by his side. Hence why you don't have to make up a bunch of bullshit with Naze like you do with Rustal.
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>>16604082
They were the ones making child soldiers more popular.

As Gjallarhorn's influence diminished there was more interest in mobile suits and more conflicts started popping up.
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>>16604082
>The whole point was stop of Kudelia's bleedheart journey to earth was stop child soldier trafficking and human debris use.
>screenshot literally says because of Tekkadan they made it's demand even higher instead

*inhales*....boi
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>>16604088
>false flag and massacre protesters, start wars between economic blocks, get chummy with war profiteers and pirates, use banned weaponry like it's going out of style
>could care less about pedophiles, and always throw a massive bitch fit when things don't go their way
Sounds like Tekkadan
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>>16604097
>They were the ones making child soldiers more popular
Child Soldiers were already popular before they did anything. What drove the rise was GHs own interference on Mars.
>>16604101
>screenshot literally says because of Tekkadan they made it's demand even higher instead
>doesn't actually say that at all
What did anon mean by this?
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>>16604102
>Sounds like Tekkadan
You fags are as bad as Nagai at trying to paint Tekkadan as worse than evil.
>>
>>16604081
Mercenaries are not entitled to POW status, not to mention Tekkadan was using illegal shit themselves such as the AV system and firing a danslief shot.
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>>16604110
>Mercenaries are not entitled to POW status
Look at this retard
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>>16604104
>doesn't actually say that at all
Bruh......you can read, right? Go look at those screenshots again
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>>16604101
The point of Kudelia's journey to earth was to negotiate the lift of limits on trade and mining to help Mars get back on its feet economically. She wanted to bring tekkadan along as a point of how bad things have gotten on mars because everyone is so poor.
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>>16604110
>Actually equalating AVs to WMD
You're drunk Nagai
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>>16604112
Where does it say that Tekkadan was tge reason why things got worse?
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>>16604104
>Child Soldiers were already popular before they did anything. What drove the rise was GHs own interference on Mars.

Crank's reaction as a vet indicated child soldiers were not common, as well as Makanai's aide being shocked when seeing Tekkadan for the first time. Plus, we have AV being illegal according to the databooks and the pseudo-AV used by most can only be given to children. Never mind that IRL the use of child soldiers is a legit war crime.

They weren't popular outside of pirates and morally questionable mercenaries, not to mention how there hadn't been a war in 300 years. There were no armies outside of Gjallarhorn, and they haven't been shown to use child soldiers either.
>>
>>16604110
AV wasn't illegal, it was just heavily, HEAVILY discouraged and discriminated against (Gjallarhorns doctors even suggest AV surgery as an option for Ein after he got skewered). And once Orga took over the AV surgeries for CGS /tekkadan were stopped.
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>>16604111
Article 47 of the Geneva convention.

> 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
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>>16604120
>Crank's reaction as a vet indicated child soldiers were not common,
Except we're shown in the actual show that they were you fucking idiot. It wasn't even on the rise since the other colonies had their own human debris at hand as well.

AVs weren't illegal they were heavily discouraged.
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>>16604107
Not really Tekkedan just everyone they got involved with.
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>>16604123
The mechanics works book actually mentions under the man rodi section that it's an illegal modification to a mobile suit.
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>>16604134
The show doesn't say anything of the sort retard.
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>>16604116
>"As tekkadan had proved the value of child soldiers, masses of children were sent to war and number of human debris grew "
> "As Tekkadan"

C'mon fampai
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>>16604136

Yeah, just like how the use of danslief are covered up by Gjallarhorn's narrative. It's a fucking canon source dipshit, deal with it. The show just ignored this fact in order to make Tekkadan look good, like Naze grooming children, Dort being terrorists and Makanai being corrupt as shit.
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>>16604144
This is how pathetic Nagai supporters are
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>>16604140
Where does it say that Tekkadan was tge reason why things got worse?
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>>16604155
I don't what to say... It's right there in front of you, all it takes os the most basic of reading comprehension to understand and you are show don't have that. This baffles me.
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>>16604102

You're trying a bit too hard with that bait there, but fine, I'll play along what did Gjallarhon do that was actually positive during the entire show and no "Dez Killed Tekkaden!" shitposting.
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>>16604152

If it only matched what we actually observed on the show...
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>>16604161
I can't even type correctly, I was so offended
>>
>rustal
>high ranking military officer
>engages in sketchy dealings but only during operations to fish out a coup and against literal terrorists supported by the mafia
>explicitly doesn't kill anyone he didn't need to or else he would have murked kudelia during the timeskip
>HUR DURRR RUSTAL IS SO EVIL
>>
>>16604162
Didn't say Gjallarhorn was good. Both sides were essentially working with the same people, with a few exceptions.

Its not really bait there, Turbines on earth were doing a false flag operation, They were involved in a conflict within an economic blocs government that led to later conflicts. They used av connections on mobile suits and deinsleifs. McGIllis was debatably a pedophile and they had the biggest fits when things went wrong it was largely their motivation for joining in on escalations.

>>16604179
He went beyond the bounds of his position in those acts.
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>>16604179
>Doesn't kill anyone he doesn't need to
>Incited a riot in dort during the march that got civilians killed where gjallarhorn soldiers were firing pretty indescrimately into the crowd then had the media edit their footage to not show gjallarhorn doing the killing.
>Incited a war that was in the process of being avoided with plans to drag it out and get a lot of soldiers on both sides killed pointlessly.
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>>16604088
The real problem is that they didnt have enough or anybody from Gjallorhorn who wasn't evil and was shown to have be good hearted. Another thing about Carta from back when she and Gaelio first met McGillis is that she was actually open-minded and not a snobbish brat him like all the other kids. Had she been introduced earlier they could have characterized her better that way so when she does die, then the audience won't be all gungho about the slaughter. The was also Crank and how he treated Ein fairly and equally and gave him a reason to have self respect even though Ein came from came from nothing and was treated like shit by mostly everyone for being a Martian halfbreed. It's like these details were just completely forgotten once Tekkadan landed on earth and and everyone in Gjallorhorn was only allowed to become completely evil.
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>>16604234
>everyone in Gjallorhorn was only allowed to become completely evil.
No ground troops didn't know what was going on and were shocked when Tekkedan took tanks into the city and when Graze Ein showed up.
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>>16604269
What I mean is everyone of importance
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>>16604275
Edmonton election fight was over two corrupt politicians starting a battle in their capital to get elected one using supposedly neutral peacekeepers and the other child soldiers.

You're not going to find anyone decent in charge.
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>>16604275

I think the problem runs deeper than that. Zeon had sympathetic people. Gjallorhorn's problem is that they do not make the case for their own existence. We never see them trying to stop conflict from braking out, instead they cause it. The only time we see them involved in anti piracy operations, Tekkaden is doing most of the work and somehow Gjallorhorn has half these guys on speed dial. Finally, when a mobile armor awakens, they are completely inept at dealing with it. One of the big problems of the show for me is that as an organization Gjallorhorn comes across as powerful but not necessarily important.
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>>16604302
>One of the big problems of the show for me is that as an organization Gjallorhorn comes across as powerful but not necessarily important

This, the show spends too much time focusing and justifying Tekkadan, that it neglected developing Gjallorhorn both plot wise and strength wise
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>>16604302
Depends on how you interpret events.

S1 Dort workers try and mount an armed strike against the company they work for. Tekkedan helps them out and the economic blocs concede and pass new legislation.
S2 colonies are revolting again.

S1 Brewers had 3 ships.
S2 dawn horizon are said to have grown recently, are bold enough to attack Teiwaz and have half a dozen ships.

S1 earth economic blocs didn't have their own military.
S2 they start fighting after a leader was bombed with little evidence.(Gjallarhorn's fault, but they had no ability to fight previously.)


Mobile armor were gone for a long time Gjallarhorn wasn't based around taking them out anymore they moved away from the AV and moved to cheaper mobile suits.

>One of the big problems of the show for me is that as an organization Gjallorhorn comes across as powerful but not necessarily important.
That's kind of what they were and why everything they did was backdoor.
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>>16604039
>TFW Iok killed someone who'd be considered a monster IRL

If only Naze and Amida had died maybe it'd be okay but he also took out a transport of unarmed non-combatants trying to escape.
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>>16604081
The decision to blow up Tekkadan's base wasn't driven by revenge. They were actively assisting McGillis and had to be (seen to be) stopped to fully and finally resolve the Fareed Incident.

Rustal explains his reasons very clearly. It's dialogue, how do you miss it?
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>>16604348

Don't forget, following s1 acts of terrorism were on the rise because of the lost faith and Teiwaz operates out of Jupiter because Gjallarhorn's not present there.
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>>16604144
"canon" is a marketing tool invented to sell extra garbage to nerds

the show itself is all that matters




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