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In 1995 Evangelion was different, groundbreaking. It was hugely experimental and because of its success, many other anime came out.
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>>16849953
Replace the year and the name with Astroboy, Maho Shojo Sally, Ribbon no Kishi, Cutey Honey, Tetsujin 28, Gatchaman, Mazinger, Versailles no Bara, Heidi, Yamato, Gundam, Ashita no Joe, Kamui, Macross, Gatchaman, Sailor Moon and many, many others and you can say more or less the same.
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>>16849953
Fuck you the ideon does it better evafag
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>>16849953
Yeah yeah lets just get this overwith.
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>>16850025
fpbp
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>>16849953
groundbreakingly pretentious and overrated
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>>16850104
The smart man says Rei, the wise man says Misato.
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>>16850104
Maya

>>16850097
I've heard this "Ideon is better" meme said about Getter and Gundam as well. is Ideon seriously the hottest shit ever? I still need to check it out.
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>>16850325
>The smart man says dead fish
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>IT'S NOT FAIR IDEON SHOULD HAVE BECOME A POPULAR AS EVANGELION MUH TOMINO REEEEEE FUCK ANNO
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>>16849953
>>16851253
Why do you say stupid shit like this? Is it something about the show itself that made you retarded and unable to watch anything made before Eva?
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>>16851253
Unironically this. Tomino was a fucking hack, glad to see people doing what he's doing far better than him
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>>16851297
Like you've even seen anything by him.
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>>16850325
the ultrapleb goes with the drunk whore, the wise man goes with Mari
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>>16850343
>is Ideon seriously the hottest shit ever?

No, it aged like shit, it was a huge influence on EVA tho.
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>>16849953

Yeo
*crack*
*sips*
Evangelion now that was an anime
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>>16851809
The thing is, people still remember Ideon due how legit groundbreaking it was. No one would remember Eva if not for le waifus
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>people still remember Ideon

>>16852878
You forgot your image and your PWAAAAAH
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At last I finally see that Evaniggers make terrible posts because you have to be stupid to be an Eva fan in the first place.
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>>16854602
>replying with images of you're waifu
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Imagine being an Ideonfag. Imagine seething over the fact that a rip-off of Ideon surpassed the original work commercially, artistically, and culturally. Imagine being so assblasted that you keep dragging the corpse of your dead anime and screeching about how Evangelion fans are retarded. IMAGINE
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>>16854641
>surpassed the original work commercially
Don't play that game because you will lose. You know damn well what surpassed Eva before it was even sketches and what continues to surpass it to this day.
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I expect a live action Evangelion movie announcement any day. Gundam is going to be a movie, and Eva is next. Hollywood knows it can have megasuccessful anime based movies just like they have with superheros
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>>16854719
>I expect a live action Evangelion movie announcement any day
They already tried that in the turn of the millennium.
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>>16854731

They tried superheroes before the turn of the millenium too, and they pretty much shit too; critically and commercially. It took a while to get the formula working for them, so it could be true of anime adaptions too. Or game adaptions for that matter, since those are mostly shit at the moment.
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>>16851809
>it was a huge influence on EVA tho.
This is such bullshit. Gundam was far more of an influence on Eva and Anno than Ideon ever was. I have no idea where this Ideon influence started to be perpetuated when Gundam is quite literally Anno's favorite series of all time.
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>>16854719
The religious references say hi
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>>16850104
It always comes down to braindead fucking waifu wars with Evafags. Obviously becoming of a series so deep and meaningful.
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>>16854719
People went on a crying fit after watching Infinity War. These people won't be ready for a live action Eva movie
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>>16851310
>we order them in bulk
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>>16854784

Because people think that Be Invoked was the iinspiration Human Instrumentality, rather than Childhood's End and Cordwainer Smith. One of Smith's settings and books is literally called The Instrumentality of Mankind.

Basically, people are illiterate racists and despite the fact that Eva draws a LOT of inspiration from western science fiction, they can't conceive of the fact that Anno might have be influenced by a non-japanese source. Evangelion HAS to have been inspired by other anime, because its an Anime, and it cant have been anything else that fed into it.
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>>16854811

Honestly, I think Infinity War is the ONLY reason we might ever see an Evangelion movie get made properly.

It will still probably never happen, but before Infinity War the idea of Hollywood ever doing Third Impact anywhere close to accurately was fucking 0. We only barely got a half-decent Watchman movie ending and it took decades.

Any live action Eva movie absolutely has to do two things to not be shit that Hollywood studio execs will recoil from on instinct. The first is to keep Third Impact, and the second is actually having 14 year old pilots. You can make Shinji into Shawn and Tokyo-3 into New Boston or whatever, but if you make Shinji into some guy in his 20s the character fucking falls apart. Shinji really, really needs to be a 14 year old kid for his emotional arc to work at all.
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>>16854880
>Shinji really, really needs to be a 14 year old kid for his emotional arc to work at all.

This is true. Making that one change completely changes everything for every character interactions and overall moral tone in the story.
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>>16851310

Comics like this are low hanging fruit that conveniently ignores that piloting an eva fucking suuuuuuuucks. Even ignoring the fact that if you ever lose a fight billions of people will die, fighting in an Eva is basically torture.

Hey, remember that time that Shinji got set on fire and the pain was so intense that his heart fucking STOPPED and they have to rush him into intensive care? Man, I sure envy his awesome robot fighting job, right?
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>>16854932

Can you imagine what it would be like to have Shinji be like 25? Or even just 19? But still act exactly the same?

He would come off as SUCH a bitch. Like an actual impotent manchild, as opposed to the show version of him that has the absolutely reasonable excuse of his life actually being a big pile of bullshit and not having any of the skills needed to deal with it.

Shinji's hedgehog problem is relatable as a kid. As an adult, it just paints him as a total fucking failure of a human being. Unless he literally turns into Gendo 2 and is a fucking misanthrope as a coping mechanism, but then the entire story becomes unrecognizeable.
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i'm actually curious at how popular eva still is in japan i know the rebuild series is going on but i'm still wondering
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>>16854935
>Hey, remember that time that Shinji got set on fire and the pain was so intense that his heart fucking STOPPED and they have to rush him into intensive care? Man, I sure envy his awesome robot fighting job, right?
If that's the price to pay to fight monsters in a giant robot, I'm willing to pay it. Even Kensuke despite seeing the pain Shinji went throught still wanted to pilot the EVA.
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>>16854950
>You know damn well what surpassed Eva
Kensuke was an autist with a military fetish
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>>16854950

Everyone says that they would be willing to endure great pain for some cause until it actually comes time to do it. Spoiler alert: great pain is fucking awful and you want it to stop not matter what it takes.

Just like how people generally think "well, *I* wouldn't break under torture no matter how bad it got". Everyone fucking breaks. EVERYONE.The only question is how long it takes and whether or not its eve possible for you to live a normal life again afterwards or are you missing too many body parts for that now.
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>>16850343
The characters are better written and more interesting, but Eva beats it out visually in a major way, both have a train wreck ending and pacing problems. Be Invoked is about as good as End of Eva though, just because of how great Tomino storyboarding works with Itano's animation.
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>>16851297
I'm going to side with Anno on this one and say that Tomino is the better director of the two.
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>>16854784
Anno's third favorite anime is Ideon, by his own ranking. Gundam is second and Yamato is first.
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>>16854982
Actually, my mistake, it is 4th, CCA is third.

https://www.gwern.net/otaku#p

>… Anno’s Top 10 Anime 1. Yamato (1974, TV) 2. Mobile Suit Gundam (1979, TV) 3. Gundam–Char’s Counterattack (1988, movie) 4. Legendary Giant IDEON (1980, TV & movie) 5. Animal Treasure Island (1971, movie) 6. Fight! Pyuta! (1968, TV) 7. Future Boy Conan (1978, TV) 8. Aim at Ace (1973, first TV series) 9. Tom & Jerry (1944) 10. Ann the Red Hair [Anne of Green Gables] (1979, TV)
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>>16854969
Oh, fuck off, half this board would jump on a mech without thinking twice.
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>>16854997

Well, yeah. Because we are mecha nerds.

And most robots have awesome powers, or at the very least don't torture you when you fight in them.

But piloting an Eva in specific is an awful experience. No one is going to enjoy having their arms broken and then having a white-hot piece of metal shoved through their eye while they are totally powerless to move but able to feel everything happening to them.

Because, remember, thats Shinji's first experience in the Eva until suddenly everything gets weird and his robot starts moving on its own. Two broken arms and some head impalement.
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>>16850343
>I've heard this "Ideon is better" meme said about Getter and Gundam as well. is Ideon seriously the hottest shit ever? I still need to check it out.
Ideon ranges from decent to good to great in Be Invoked but it's nothing like Eva or Getter, so don't bite shitty memebaits.
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>Evafags actually fight back against shitty Ideon memes
Am I still on /m/?
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>>16850104
Reminder that Rei was a cheap plot device, a dumb eldritch monster with mass cloned spare, it don't show any intelligence or initiative despite having god-like power like Kaoru and just served as an enabler for Anno's self insert.

Even Asuka had real character development.

The wisest choice is Hikari

>>16854719
Meh... how much you bet they'll Americanize all characters, take older overpaid actor who should be replaced by CGI even for playing themselves, remove any religious reference and make it fit their super-heroes recipe?
basically Pacific Rim 2 but with a plot more predictable

I'll still watch it if it have this quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8FfpGJFfFI

>>16854880
I never watched IW, what make you say that?

>and the second is actually having 14 year old pilots + >>16854941
That's debatable.
If we are honest NGE was deliberately playing old cliché .

Hollywood writers are not retard, just forced to follow exec paid 1000x more than they are. If the Exec want to reach the older demography even a talentless hack writer like me can lazily rework all these moral dilemma from an adult perspective.
An 25 man-child come back to his father to "know what the hell he want"
See his father isn't bluffing and would send a comatose girl in combat
get "stuck with saving the world" after that
try to run away to see if he can before the MIB show up.
you get all the pop psychology simply from analyzing mind rape from ALIEN
MC know he's being left in the dark and can't face the people he hurt at whatever stand for high school because he know he's a shit pilot
crumble under the pressure because that's what even grown man do
yet, since the MC is usually inquisitive solve-it-all, he would walk the spectator through the intelligent questions a kid don't ask. "why does it have to be me?"

From there it's easy to imply a third impact, even if the Exec will refuse the "too complex" stuff
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>>16854709
>Don't play that game because you will lose. You know damn well what surpassed Eva before it was even sketches and what continues to surpass it to this day.

What? Not this guy btw.
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>>16856368
You have to be legitimately retarded to be on this board and not know.
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>>16854709
Oh yes, Ideon the huge commercial success, with its barely extant merchandise and lack of pimpable waifus. Stop fooling yourself.
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>>16856320
>Reminder that Rei was a cheap plot device, a dumb eldritch monster with mass cloned spare, it don't show any intelligence or initiative despite having god-like power like Kaoru and just served as an enabler for Anno's self insert.
Oh it's this fake meme again.
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>>16856834
Nice reading comprehension.
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>>16854709
Ultraman?
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>>16856856
Jesus fucking Christ, it's so fucking obvious but not one of you have come remotely close to figuring it out.
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>>16849953
I just wanted an excuse to post this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQzxcF1GCWs
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>>16856859
no, really, it's a big ultraman fanfic
a lot of Anno's stuff ends up being ultraman
Nadia ended up being Ultraman
the god soliders from Nausicaa are labeled by him on his design sheets as "ultra-man"
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>>16854731
Would not be shocked, heard anno want's to turn the universe into something like Gundam
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>>16856997
Christ, you're an idiot. YTou're even farther from figuring it out.
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>>16854709
It's Gundam, isn't it, or something Nagai did. I can't think of anything else that inspired Eva that's still going to this day.
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>>16856856
>>16856997
>>16856834
>>16857070
He's probably talking about Gundam, which doesn't change the fact that Ideon is dead and buried.
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>>16857070
>It's Gundam, isn't it
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>>16857071
And you can't deny the fact that Tomino is a bigger commercial success than Anno with a much larger legacy and influence.
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>>16857093
And you can't deny the fact that Ideon is DEAD, FORGOTTEN, and a COMMERCIAL FAILURE compared to Evangelion.
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>>16857113
>forgotten
Merchandise like model kits still exist for it and it continues to be referenced in other shows. You've no ground for that claim.
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>>16855014
It doesn't torture you. Piloting any vehicle in combat involves some risk of pain and injury, nevertheless there are plenty of autists like us jumping on tanks and fighter jets. On an Eva at least you just feel it without any actual damage (most of the time).
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>best girl

>>16855014
>>16854969
>Everyone says that they would be willing to endure great pain for some cause until it actually comes time to do it. Spoiler alert: great pain is fucking awful and you want it to stop not matter what it takes.
If everybody thought that there would be no war.
If a child can take it, any motivated person, or better a soldier wouldn't have any problem.

also
>suffer great pain
>have almost no real physical injury
If they could extend the job offer to anyone, a masochist would consider this a job perk
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>>16859029
>best girl
gotcha covered senpai
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>>16856320
>>16856843
Yeah, it's hilarious how mad Asuka fans get at Rei being a literal god compared to their dead-inside-fuckdoll.
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>>16859029
>>best girl
S-shut up! ;_;
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>>16859240
That's all nice but the focus of the camera is all wrong, no one care about the foreground.
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What exactly do Ideon and Eva have in common besides an ending where everyone dies?
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>>16859261
>proud of a magical puppet
Don't mind Kaoru, he's just everything rei failed to be
A card-carrying character with his own motivation, he had actual god-like knowledge, power, presence and had to show rei how it's done.
Only needed one episode to become one of the most popular character archetype even among the boys.
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>>16859261
It's hilarious how mad Reifags get at people saying that Rei is explicitly presented as the avatar of escapism and returning to the womb.
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>>16859306
The AU version + Sisters is bestest.
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You ever imagine if Kaworu getting Shinji to kill him was some sort of strange trap? Like when Shinji kills him everything after is actually some sort of weird fever dream and the angels are going kill the world? I mean it just seems like the natural evolution of 16th angel to 17th angel.
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>>16860419
That's delusional. Kaworu died like he lived, a bitch.

>>16860423
So is this. Asuka fans can't help but project Asuka's negative aspects onto Rei. Just like Asuka, it's downright poetic.
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>>16860433
"Kill me shinji"
>10 minute of still picture with music
>CRUSHING SOUND
"Mouahahahaha !!! it was a trap! by breaching my AT-field you've allowed me to free myself of this constraining body, now I can take over Lilith and reseed the world for my Chosen Race, the angels!"
And then Evangelion ANIMA begins
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>>16860433
Kaworu was mentally retarded and doesn't have capability of any sort of higher thinking, much less empathy.
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>>16860459
That would still make him better than rei,
>mindless doll
>no thinking of her own
>no empathy
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>>16860487
>mindless doll
>no thinking of her own
>no empathy
That's Asuka. You color blind or something? The red girl is Asuka, not Rei.
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>>16860487
Yeah, about that anon...
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>>16860494
>>16860615

It will never fail to amuse me that after 20 years of being told that Rei is basically a plot device with the personality to match, Reifags have bent over backwards to spin an elaborate headcanon that amounts to "no you".

Protip: that silence you hear afterwards isnt victory, its people cringing so hard they would rather leave the conversation than explain the myriad ways in which you are wrong.
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>>16860619
>it's Asukafags being destroyed so hard they have to save face
Fixed that. You know very well Asukafags only scream "doll" at Rei because their own doll waifu did it.
I don't know what you imagined was happening, but Asuka fans have generally been looked down at for that, and it was always obvious Asuka was a puppet.
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>>16860619
It's not elaborate nor headcanon, it's just canon. Asuka is a puppet girl, the show was clear on that. What you're telling me is that Asukafags have been wrongly calling Rei a doll for 20 years because they bet on the wrong horse in 1995.
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>>16860619
I'm sorry anon, but it would appear you have been living a lie.
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>>16860615

Jesus christ. I hope you didn't make this yourself, anon, because the terminology here is all fucked.

The reverse of an NPC is not an individual, its a PC. Player Character. Someone controlled by a person. This is why NPC stands for Non-Player Character, it is inherently derivative from the Player Character title.

Which, if you try to apply the actual term of Player Character to Rei, you would immediately see why this is bullshit. Rei is not a Player Character. She is not the one whose choices and actions drive the story, the story isn't about her. The Player Character is clearly Shinji.

So if you insist on using dumb NPC terminology in a non-game setting, both Asuka and Rei are equally NPCs.

If you want to stick to your guns and keep your silly 'NPC vs individual' dichotomey, you end up with the same result anyway. Your entire argument for individualism in this context is 'has an inner voice and makes choices'. Which makes NGE a particullarly silly show to try and pull this crap on, because damn near everyone has an inner voice in this show. If you had actually watched the show, you would remember that Asuka has internal monologues onscreen on multiple occasions, rendering your entire argument (as simple as it is) totally invalid. There's an entire Angel dedicated to ripping apart Asuka's psyche, which means she has one.

Since your ONLY stated criteria for individuality is an inner voice, this means that both Asuka and Rei are individuals.

So regardless of which way you want to play this they both end up in the same category, and your argument is bullshit.
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>>16860638
>this guy doesn't know what an NPC is
NPC detected.
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>>16860638
You are completely misunderstanding the other guy. He's not referring to the games but to the newest meme that emerged due to fact that scientists discovered that 17% of people don't have any sort of inner speach. Making anons conclude that most of humanity are just mindless automatons.
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>>16860638
Forgot pic. Here is Wojak surrounded by NPC-people. Please note that Asuka makes the NP face in that guy's comparison.
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>>16860642
>Making anons conclude that most of humanity are just mindless automatons.
This is, of course, total bullshit. In fact sometimes it happens the other way, with people who are incapable of mental visualization and can only do inner speech.
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>>16860450
How the blithering fuck does Asuka have anything to do with returning to the womb? IT IS REI'S WOMB THAT SHINJI RETURNS TO, LEST YOU FORGET. And, of course, Evangelion sees little difference between escapism and returning to the womb.
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>>16860638
I didn't make it but I do see that you've misunderstood the term NPC in this case. It's not really referring to video game NPC's as some new "wojak meme" /v/ or /pol/ cooked up recently. I think it came from a study that analyzed how people thought, and came to a conclusion that some people don't actually have an "inner voice". They live only in the moment and can't for instance, have a debate with themselves or a hypothetical opponent, and only operate on emotion. They can't self-reflect or introspect and therefore are less conscious - they're "NPC's".
In this case, Asuka who doesn't introspect or develop at all as a character, is an NPC. I know you said she had an inner voice, but that just means you'll be surprised when you rewatch it expecting Asuka to have one. It's not there.

But even using a video game definition, Rei would still be a "player character" as her choices more than often do drive the story, and in most cases - enables it all to go on. It's the same for Shinji, but Asuka would still remain an NPC as she merely reacts rather than acting. Her "psyche" that you refer to, isn't being ripped apart as much as it's being reactivated. Asuka is a puppet controlled by her delusions. You'll see that in Rei's case, where her psyche is also examined by the Angel, Rei doesn't do like Asuka and deny herself, but rather engages the Angel and ultimately defeats it.

Rei would be classed as a PC, Shinji is a PC, as would Misato. But Asuka is strictly a NPC due to her complete lack of mental agency and inability to deviate from her programming. The former seeks truth, the latter seems to have no relation with it, and avoid it at all costs.
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>>16860652
lol more like bitches can't attain the mind-of-no-mind and then they cry to themselves while I get the drop on them as a zen sword master
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>>16860649
Not really, as non-NPC's in this meme are perfectly capable of doing both.

>with people who are incapable of mental visualization and can only do inner speech.
I don't think there is any scientific foundation for people like that. Maybe, but things like hunger, emotion or similar aspects are base features of all people. People are more or less capable of mental vizualisation however. That's true.
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>>16860656
That's different, as you were in a state of capability of self-reflection and introspection but has managed to not use it at will. This seems introverted but it's in the name, it's also one's ability to reflect on external properties of the world.
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>>16860650
How does she not? Have you not watched Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995) or it's finale, End of Evangelion (1997) ?

Asuka is the most direct representative of the concept of escapism you can find in Evangelion. Asuka also hates and rejects Rei - who represents the opposite of escapism, self-realization and independence.
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>>16860650
Asuka is entirely dependent on the "womb" of the EVA to live. Asuka is Evangelion's Escapist Poster Girl of sorts. Didn't you notice that Asuka in EoE for instance, never takes a single step? She's either in bed, carried by someone else or used as a sex toy. The only time she's somewhat conscious is when she's put BACK in the womb - the EVA. Where it's safe with mommy.

It's not really a coincidence that Asuka's entire life is one giant ball of failures while Shinji and Rei actually make progression together.
>>
What happens after EoE?
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>>16860691
People come back.
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>>16860691
The franchise gets milked dry with endless spinoffs and rehashes.
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>>16860691

Probably nothing good.

Even if more people come out of the LCL, the ecosystem is FUCKED. There is also nothing that says that everyone who comes out will come out in the same place, so you probably end up with hundreds or thousands of people scattered across the world on different beaches, most of whom understand even less about what the fuck just happened than Shinji and Asuka.

So you have a bunch of scared, confused people scattered across the globe trying to find each other and rebuild civilization in a world where the oceans are LCL now and there don't seem to be any plants or animals left. The only good news is that the lack of ecosystem wont mean that everyone fucking asphyxiates due to lack of oxygen, because LCL is oxygenated so worst case scenario everyone goes back into the oceans and breathes underwater. Though I'm sure that has its own set of downsides.

I have no idea what everyone would eat, or if its even possible to rebuild civilization after everything has been wrecked so thoroughly.
>>
Can we just stop with the meme that Rei is some kind of strong independent woman who makes her own choices?

The establishment for Rei as a character is literally that there is something wrong with her because she has no self-drive. Go back and watch the episode that first gives us a glimpse of Rei as anything other than a bleeding girl on a cot to emotional bait Shinji into piloting the Eva.
When we see Rei's apartment for the first time, what do we see? We see that the mail has been allowed to pile up so much that its clogging the slot. She lives in a dump, and she sleeps in her own bloody sheets and bandages long after her wounds have healed.

I want you to really take that in. This is a girl who sleeps in filth rather than change her sheets, because no one told her to change her sheets. Even taking off the sheets and sleeping on the bare mattress would be better, but she doesn't do that either.

The absences from her room speak volumes as well. Rei has exactly one personal effect: Gendo's glasses. But we know when those glasses got cracked, the accident that injured Rei in the first place. Which was... certainly not very long ago. Days or weeks.This means that, prior to that, Rei had no personal effects at all. Not a single one.

This speaks to a conspicuous lack of hobbies or interests. She doesn't seem to have anything she does for herself or her own entertainment. What the hell does Rei do all day after she comes home from school if not eat, sleep, and sit there waiting for the phone to ring and be summoned by Gendo?

But the real kicker comes from the lack of personal regard shown by the infamous tripping scene, where Shinji manages to fall on a naked Rei. Rei isn't upset by this, she barely reacts to it at all until several seconds later when she finally asks Shinji to move. And then, instead of reacting to the massive invasion of privacy that just happened, she gets dressed and leaves.
And yet she slaps Shinji for badmouthing his dad. Her master.
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>>16860725
It's not a meme. It's the canonical character of Rei.
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>>16860662
>Rei - who represents the opposite of escapism, self-realization and independence.
Rei represents the mother who Shinji wants to fuck/return to the womb of.
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>>16860658
>I don't think there is any scientific foundation for people like that.
It's real. Look up Aphantasia.

>>16860715
Yui was a lying fuck then, wasn't she?
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>>16860728

Okay. Then you should be able to explain why that's unambiguously true in a way that doesn't require you to rely on your interpretations of the character over observed fact of canonical content.
And lets cut off the easy path from the start: you are not allowed to deflect by mentioning Asuka at all. Say her name and you lose the argument.

Go.
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>>16860737
Hmmm, no. Rei represents accepting reality through action and advice, your claim is simply unfounded headcanon.
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>>16860737

This. Rei pretty obviously represents choosing the comfortable path and being passive rather than actually having to confront your issues and grow (represented by Asuka).

The symmetry between Gendo and Shinji here is almost painfully on the nose. Gendo chose to invest in Yui at the exclusion of giving a shit about anyone and everything else, because Yui didn't demand change from him and Gendo was comfortable with Yui because she would never hurt him. This made Gendo happy in the short term, but was ultimately proven a bad strategy because when Gendo lost Yui his only desire was to get her back by any means necessary, becoming more of a raging asshole than ever before and even abandoning their child.

Rei is a clone of Yui, and carries the same choice for Shinji: never hurting him because she is so passive that her desires never conflict with his. It is made even more unambiguously clear that this is the wrong choice by making this semi-incestual (clone of his mom, at bare minimum his genetic half-sister depending on how much Lilith DNA you want to argue is in her).

Meanwhile, on the flip side, you have Asuka: a girl with about as many hangups and flaws as Shinji has. A relationship with Asuka is going to be hard and painful, but its one that requires each of them to grow as people to make it work. Which is, after all, the message of Eva: yes, relationships can be painful but you should open yourself up and try anyway. Because even the pain of failure from having tried is better than festering in your stagnation and doing nothing.
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>>16860751
Completely wrong, of course. The series strongly rejects any such notion on a fundamental level by having Asuka consistently choose the path of escapism herself, and Rei choose the path of realism. In other words, your interpretation is only possible if you were to imagine Evangelion being something that it isn't.

Your parallels are at best unfounded and could easily be applied in reverse.
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>>16860739
>Yui was a lying fuck then, wasn't she?

Well, she was in the Eva and then fucks off into space. Its entirely possible she doesn't know the situation on the outside very well, she might think things are way less fucked than they are.

But considering its a popular theory that Yui was manipulating everyone else from the start for her little endgame, yeah she might just have been being a huge bitch. But she said she wanted Shinji to grow up in a better world, so I'm guessing she didn't realize how bad Third Impact ruined everything.

That, or maybe the world is less fucked than it seems. Maybe a giant sea of LCL will spawn an ecosystem pretty rapidly. Lilith is, after all, designed to reshape worlds to support life. Hard to say, not of unknowns here.
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>>16860757

There's also how technically Shinji is around the area of the Geofront which got hit by an N2 mine and then some other explosion by the third impact. We don't actually see that the entire world is ruined like that, lcl-sea aside.
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>>16860740
Well it's actually really simple. Take your original complaint; that Rei is discussed as "a strong, independent woman who makes her own choices". All we have to do, with no interpretation or symbolic understanding necessary, is to look at how Rei thinks, lives and acts - as well as who she is.

Getting the easy part done first, Rei is female. Not a woman, sure, but I can only suppose that was a poetic misphrasing on your part, as you meant female. Rei is only a child after all.
Secondly, Rei is someone who indeed lives alone, at a very young age. She gets up in the morning and does everything by herself. This is functional independence - although you could argue that she isn't great at taking care of herself, but that would be another topic as well. Moreover, and this will tie into the next - Rei's mental independence is clear - whether it's her reason for piloting the EVA or her own understanding of others or herself, we all actually sit beside Rei and observe her conclusions as she makes them, through often introspective scenes. She does, for instance when asked if she piloted the EVA because Gendo told her to, deny that only to supply her own reason. Rei is independent.
Thirdly, that Rei makes her own choices is evident from the fact that she is perfectly able to deny even those who have put a lot of effort into controlling her. There are occasions where Rei's judgement supercedes that of Misato's and Gendo's, as shown when she is ordered to retreat against Zeruel and Armisael. With Zeruel, Rei also sortied without orders to do so.
It cannot be debated that Rei is strong either, as she has faced incomprehensible hardships, both mental and physical - and prevailed in every one. Physically speaking, Rei is also an Angel.

As an addition, your appraisal of Rei is based on a lot of false interpretation - such as the idea that the only reason she hasn't cleaned her sheets is because "no one has told her to". Where would you get that idea to begin with?
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>>16860754
> Asuka consistently choose the path of escapism
> Rei choose the path of realism

You keep saying this, so I'm going to presume you have an argument to support it.

And don't waste a post saying "lol just watch the show". Elaborate. Put your money where your mouth is. Because so far I can spell out the narrative themes and how they are expressed int he story, and you haven't done anything but say "nu uh" and "no you" in various tones of voice.
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>>16860767
You'd be correct in saying "so far". But what you're about to realize, is that your comprehension of the narrative is at best, forgetful and at worst selective. I can explain Evangelion for you and these two characters, and I'll use two posts.
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>>16860767
>And don't waste a post saying "lol just watch the show"
Why are you bothering trying to discuss or debate a show you haven't seen? Honestly curious.
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>>16860767
>>16860795
Asuka is a person without her own personality. To support that, consider Asuka's background and her motivations.
Asuka was traumatized as a child with the deterioration and subsequent loss of her mother. Being unable to handle the rejection, and possibly because Asuka was even before that very dependent on external validation, she chose to engorge herself in the fantasy of her own superiority and uniqueness. Believing that she was a specially selected EVA pilot, Asuka could continue to escape the need to face her past and her loss, as well as forming her own ideas and opinions. Asuka simply believes what she is told by those who control her: NERV.

That's right - what most Asuka fans escape from is that Asuka's loss never was a coincidence. Asuka's mother and by extension Asuka was part of their Evangelion program from the start. NERV took away Asuka's mother, her source of validation, in a very traumatic manner. Then they quickly offered validation in the form of telling her she was special, but only through being an EVA pilot. Asuka became their puppet. This had devastating effects:
Asuka now lives in a fantasy where she's a special super robot pilot, an ace and the very best, despite never having seen combat. This way, she can avoid facing her own problems as well as having normal relationships with other people. This is why Asuka freaks out when Arael forces her to do so.
But of course, reality doesn't oblige her fantasies. When it becomes clear to the viewer that Asuka isn't any of that, Asuka still refuses to let go of her escapism. She deteriorates. Eventually NERV removes her from the pilot roster, also voiding her personality. She collapses into a puppet like state. The only time she ever re-energizes, is when she is put back into NERV's role as an EVA pilot in EoE.
This is also why Asuka always rejects truth or challenges to the established truth offered by Shinji or Rei as that would destroy the fantasy that sustains her.
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>>16860804
>normal relationships with other people
Like the Hikari/Asuka friendship?
Are you also going to insist that Asuka speaks German poorly and Rei is some techno-genius because there's one scene where she messes around with the entry plug hatch?
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>>16860767
>>16860795
The reality of Rei is that she was tightly controlled by NERV since birth, and her origins were kept from her, subsequently her identity. The only thing Rei is made aware of through either experience or being told, is that she's not normal or human like the rest, and that she is replaceable. She is traumatized as a child, being murdered only to be resurrected at someone elses whim.

Rei deals with this fact not by running away from it, but by accepting it as a part of her reality. She doesn't attempt to escape what she is or what her circumstances are by depending on another person or false idea of herself. Instead, Rei is seen reflecting and trying to define herself, despite the insurmountable difficulty of the task. Whatever toxic relationships Rei has, such as her relationship with Gendo, Rei is even able to understand and reflect on those, and even change it.

We see this behavior for Rei without any exception. When she faces Armisael, the angel also reaches down into Rei's heart and allows deeper reflection on her soul - Rei doesn't reject the hurtful things said by the Angel, but actually gives them consideration and understands it. She even manages to undesrstand the Angel. Similarly whenever she can use her situation to her advantage, such as by sacrificing herself to defeat the enemy, Rei goes with it. Rei doesn't simply extend this behavior to herself, but also to others. This is why Rei is often lecturing Shinji or Asuka on the truth of Evangelion.

The gist of it is that Rei never ran away from her problems but faced them head on, and profited greatly by it in the end. Rei was afraid of discovering what she actually was, but still longed for the answer.
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>>16860823
>Like the Hikari/Asuka friendship?
Like that one, yes. It was a false friendship where Hikari never cared about Asuka, only to feed off her popularity. Asuka only cared about a minion, which she couldn't get from Rei who denied her call for a false friendship.

When Asuka isn't a pilot any more, all Hikari can think about is for her to "go home already".
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>>16860742
Then why does Shinji accepting reality result in his permanent separation from Rei?
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>>16854709
>>16857071
>This completely separate work from the same creator has made more money than Eva with it's 17-year headstart and constant retooling by people other than the aforementioned creator, and it's most profitable incarnations in recent decades have been sequels and AUs and not the original work, so HA!
What a brainlet
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>>16860842
Because Rei has achieved her goal, she has reclaimed her original state and self as Lilith, and more now that she consumed the other ancient artifacts (e.g Adam).
Rei has moved on to a higher plane of existence, and this was the case before she went to encounter Shinji to help him. Rei is still around, as shown when she appears in the final scene or episode 1.

What Rei did prior was to ensure Shinji and the rest of mankind wasn't locked up in instrumentality forever. Shinji is only able to accept reality because Rei is again lecturing Shinji and giving him a chance to be an individual for a few moments so he can make a decision.
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>>16860840
>Hikari never cared about Asuka
>Asuka only cared about a minion
Where are the proofs?
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>>16860853
In the show? The reference I put here: >>16860840 to the scene near the end is also proof.
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>>16860804

That's a lot of disingenuous double talk, anon. Asuka clearly has a personality, you just spent your post describing your interpretation of it.

That Asuka has had a lot of smoke blown up her ass about being special and has latched onto it as validation is no secret insight, that much is obvious to anyone. But thats not escapism, just a misguided form of Asuka's own explictly stated desire for independence. This is a girl, remember, who wants to be seen as an adult as quickly as possible so she won't be dependent on other people. Its her way of closing herself off from the rest of the world, like Shinji and his music.

Its also worth pointing out that Asuka's fantasy of being a super pilot are not entirely unfounded. In terms of technical skill, she really is very good. However she is overtrained and as a result overconfident: she excels at fighting the sort of enemies that she spent years and years trouncing in simulations, but Nerv failed to prepare her for all of the weird bullshit that actual Angels do. Israfel is a good example here, in that she cuts in Angel in half in seconds in a stellar opening move that would have killed any normal enemy, but then Israfel turns into two enemies and trounces her before she can respond to the unexpected situation.

EoE likewise shows that when you put her in a situation where she is fighting (at the time, anyway) normal enemies? She destroys them. If the MP Evas didn't have S2 tech, she would have been the undisputed victor of a 1v9 fight. Thats really impressive by any metric, until the plot kicks in.

The point being that the fantasy that she was going to be this super special pilot and kill Angels like it was nothing wasn't just a fantasy, it had substance. Its when her expectations fail in the face of insurmountable odds that she has to deal with her failures and her own deteriorating sense of self worth.

[cont]
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>The Asuka and Rei waifu wars are back
Well it was a better retread than fucking monsha posting at least.
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>>16860862

You also focus on Asuka coming out of her catatonic state when being put in the Eva, ignoring that fact that was not the trigger for her revival. Being in the entry plug isn't what brings her back into action, she was still catatonic within the entry plug for some time. It was reconnecting with her mother and hitting the core of her abandonment (and thus independence) issues and that catharsis that gets her up and moving again.

Trying to contextualize all of this in the theme of escapism is limiting and forcing you to perform very shallow readings of these scenes and characters, to the detriment of your understanding of the work.
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>>16860862
>Asuka clearly has a personality, you just spent your post describing your interpretation of it.
If that's your take-away, you misunderstood Asuka as a character as well as my post. Asuka's personality is a conception of herself that is provided by NERV. At any one point NERV can take that away - like they did, causing Asuka to implode. Asuka's personality isn't her own, it's a set of behaviors and ideas about herself that NERV put there. They own it, not her, and demonstrated that clearly.

>But thats not escapism, just a misguided form of Asuka's own explictly stated desire for independence
This is also wrong, because you mix up two concepts. The desire for independence was never there, it itself is a form of escapism to get away from the fact that she wasn't allowed dependence with her mother. NERV took that away and gave her something else to depend on, EVA-piloting. Moreover, this was not "misguided", it was guided by NERV who control her.

Moreover, this:
>In terms of technical skill, she really is very good. However she is overtrained and as a result overconfident: she excels at fighting the sort of enemies that she spent years and years trouncing in simulations
is fanwank.

Years trouncing in simulations? Overtrained? She excels at fighting? Where was this mentioned in the series? Isn't this your own escapism and fantasy about Asuka? You see, none of what you mentioned there actually happened. No reference to it exists.
Her fantasy of being a good EVA pilot will always be fantasy because even assuming she had training - she never fought for real. It's like an otaku playing video games pretending they're a great fighter. It's escapism.

>If the MP Evas didn't have S2 tech,
Ah. See the problem here? You make excuses. You use the word "if", as in "if reality were different, she would have been victorious". But that's the beauty of it. Reality isn't different. That's why EoE makes a point out of her, and doesn't destroy the MP-series, but Asuka.
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>>16860851
You continue to miss the symbolism regarding Rei being the mother of all life on the planet and Shinji entering her.
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>>16860872
You keep pretending Shinji entered her and not the Black Moon, plus you invalidate 99.999% of the entire series and the movie just to misinterpret once scene.

That's desperate and sad.
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>>16860874
But Shinji does enter her.
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>>16860868
>>16860871
You're still not saying anything different I'm afraid. I thought you liked symbolism as well, how much clearer could it be when Asuka can only have confidence when in the EVA's womb, with her mommy no less?

The facts remain that Asuka's presence of will is tied with her being an EVA-pilot and with access to the "womb". That her mother is actually there for her to give her comfort and love, through the EVA only cements the fact that Asuka hasn't graduated into adulthood or personal independence yet.
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>>16860875
Correct term would be that they join souls or something. After instrumentality is a fact, Rei brings Shinji to her presumably in order to have a one-on-one with him, convincing him that instrumentality was escapism.
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>>16860875
....and Rei is the one that help Shinji out of escapism, the one person that without Shinji would to succumb to escapism forever and share a fate with Asuka in the goo.

EoE was never that difficult to understand. SEELE starts instrumentality without Rei. The only thing Rei can do at this point, is to take over the MP-EVA's and put herself straight into the fire, so she can get to Shinji.
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>>16860837
>The gist of it is that Rei never ran away from her problems but faced them head on

This behavior is indistinguishable from not caring enough about herself to bother with self preservation, and thus entirely a matter of your interpretation of these events.

Rei never attempted to run away because running away requires you to value yourself or your own survival. Rei doesn't do that. Blame it on being emotionally damaged, blame it on being a series of clones, doesn't matter. The point is that Rei NEVER takes any action in the show out of any kind of self defense or preservation. Even her self sacrifice during the Armisael fight wasn't for her own benefit or to beat the enemy out of any personal desire, but rather to save Shinji.

Trying to build this behavior into a theme of Rei representing 'accepting reality' is thematically undercut by the fact that the only thing that makes this behavior at all possible for her is that her situation is incredibly unreal. As a series of clones, she has no need to fear death. As an alien soul in a clone body, she doesn't even have an INSTINCTUAL fear of harm or death that would inform her behavior. Anyone else trying to mimic Rei's behavior would be fucking dead.
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>>16860871
>The desire for independence was never there

Thats not even up for debate. That's just you willfully ignoring onscreen material.

Listen, if you are just going to flat out ignore what is stated onscreen and what forms the entire fucking foundation for her actions and flaws as a character because it clashes with your elaborate headcanon? I'm not going to bother with this anymore
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>>16860882
>This behavior is indistinguishable from not caring enough about herself to bother with self preservation, and thus entirely a matter of your interpretation of these events.
>Rei never attempted to run away because running away requires you to value yourself or your own survival

This is of course, incorrect. The presences of scenes where Rei does face those problems and questions herself, proves your interpretation here wrong.

>Even her self sacrifice during the Armisael fight wasn't for her own benefit or to beat the enemy out of any personal desire, but rather to save Shinji.
It was to save everyone, including herself. If she does not do it, the others will die including herself. If in fact Rei wanted death, to do nothing would achieve her would-be goal.

>Trying to build this behavior into a theme of Rei representing 'accepting reality' is thematically undercut by the fact that the only thing that makes this behavior at all possible for her is that her situation is incredibly unreal.

This is of course, also wrong. Shinji's, Asuka's situation are also incredibly unreal. Not only are they too super-robot pilots, but an alien lifeform also consisting of degradeable flesh and souls. The only difference is that Rei is, ironically, more unique than them.

>As an alien soul in a clone body, she doesn't even have an INSTINCTUAL fear of harm or death that would inform her behavior. Anyone else trying to mimic Rei's behavior would be fucking dead.
On the contrary, as Rei's behavior is pragmatic, not purely suicidal. Mimicking Rei's behavior, which is to deal with what you've got is indeed what saves everyone including herself in the end.

Contrast that with Asuka, who is actually suicidal, and actually did attempt suicide for the sake of death at one point. Moreover, consider Asuka's reaction in Magma Diver - death does not bother her. She smilingly accepts it. Consider also her attitude with other Angels, notably Arael: she preferred death to reality.
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If it's so great where's 4.0?
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>>16860890
Not an argument. I'm sticking to the series:

>That's just you willfully ignoring onscreen material.
No, it's you misinterpreting it. Think about the scenes chronologically. What came first? Desire for independence or the traumatic events? Evangelion frames it very clearly: Asuka has no desire for independence itself, which is why her character arc ultimately involves accepting that it's not what she really wants.

The idea that Asuka could be special and independent was planted there by NERV through the removal of her mother which she depended upon, and the puppeteering of her person into EVA piloting.

This is all on-screen, and undeniable. The problem here is that you, like Asuka, built a fantasy Asuka in your head. The cognitive dissonance you are experiencing right now is the result of being faced with the reality of Asuka's character, much like Asuka herself experienced. Like with you, as for Asuka, the end of this discussion and the your graduation from escapism lies in rejecting this fantasy Asuka.
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>>16860903
>>16860890
See, if Asuka fans had actually understood Evangelion instead of just using it for masturbatory fuel, they would never had been Asuka fans to begin with.

Asuka didn't become obsessed with "being special" or "independent" until after NERV had their way with her and her mother. NERV simply took advantage and played Asuka like a fiddle. That's why when Asuka is full grown, she has failed to build her own personality. She's just an EVA pilot, or nothing. In other words, she's NERV's employee and servant, or she's nothing.

Asuka is a doll. Rei is in fact, a strong independent female who makes her own choices. Rei's quiet and diligent behavior hides the massive strength she posesses both mentally and physically, while Asuka's loud and abrasive behavior hides the weak little doll girl that's on the inside.

Even on this, Evangelion was not merciful in portraying Asuka as a doll.
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>>16860897
NGE was great, but the Rebuilds were Anno's revenge fantasy against the audience. He was mad they preferred Rei over his waifu.
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>>16860933
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>>16860878
>Correct term would be that they join souls or something.
Shinji literally physically enters Rei.

>>16860881
And you're convienently ignoring that when Instrumentality actually does occur, it's presented as Rei's doing through and through. The MPEva's faces become Rei's, the Anti-AT field manifests as Reis, and the souls of humanity are sucked into Rei.
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>>16860933
EoE was already that.
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>>16861007
Says who? Butthurt Asuka otaku?
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>>16861006
>it's presented as Rei's doing through and through.

Never happened. Instrumentality since it's conception as an idea from instrumentality is explicitly said to be reliant on Shinji. Rei is never mentioned. The MP-EVA's become Rei's because at this stage, Rei is still trying to take them over. Once she completes, she kills them. But it's EVA01 with Shinji that is in control.

Why are you ignoring these facts?
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>>16861007
>EoE
>revenge against the fans
It just continued where NGE left off and took it to it's natural conclusion.
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>asukafags getting wrecked
>asukafags waking up to the fact their waifu is a doll fucktoy
Business as usual.
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>>16855014
Except piloting an Eva is also cool since feeling the Eva's injuries is what you get for being able to literally interface with its' mind and control its' body as if it's actually your body. Having an impenetrable shield and feeling like you're a 40 meter tall giant that is like a living force of nature is incredibly cool. Eva was what made me into a /m/an to begin with,since the Evangelions were literally the coolest thing and coolest concept I had ever seen in the cucked,shitty 14 years of my miserable life. Fuck off.
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>>16861020
This is delusional fanwank of the highest order.
>The MP-EVA's become Rei's because at this stage, Rei is still trying to take them over. Once she completes, she kills them.
The MPEvas stabbing themselves appears to be part of the Instrumentality process, seeing as when it is rejected the spears blow up and the MPEvas are petrified.
>Instrumentality since it's conception as an idea from instrumentality is explicitly said to be reliant on Shinji. Rei is never mentioned.
Apart from the fact where everything Instrumentality-related when it actually occurs is in some way connected to Rei. And that the EoE theatrical pamphlet explicitly states that Gendo is trying to start Instrumentality with Rei, Lilith, and his hand.
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>>16861056
>The MPEvas stabbing themselves appears to be part of the Instrumentality process, seeing as when it is rejected the spears blow up and the MPEvas are petrified.
So if you kill your enemies, they win?
>b-but it was part of the p-process
Says who? You? They looked p. fucking dead mate. Sure they get more destroyed afterwards, but that isn't really surprising.

>Apart from the fact where everything Instrumentality-related when it actually occurs is in some way connected to Rei.
No, it's still connected to everything else it was before. Rei has also joined the game.
You can fanwank all you want, but you can't get around the fact that SEELE never included rei in their plans and instrumentality was started without her.

>b-but the gloss-
actually doesn't back you up. The Evangelion's were what SEELE through NERV created to initiate their project. Rei is Gendo's hidden trump-card whom he had hoped would guide him to Yui, this is explicitly mentioned in EoE and outside it as well.

Eva-01 became the sole substitute for Lilith as the medium for Instrumentality (Human Complementation). EVA01 is a copy of Lilith, and was therefore planned to be used instead of Lilith. Rei is the REAL DEAL, and can actually subvert the process.

Like everything you say is wrong. It's even shown that Gendo wasn't keen on starting instrumentality in the first place as shown in EoE, which is why it all develops into a huge confrontation between SEELE and NERV. You just need to suck it up and accept that Asuka is supposed to be as garbage as she looks. No amount of fanwank on your end can change that.
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>>16861056
It's not as much fanwank as it's literally what happened. Rei's involvement in instrumentality was in fact:

- never planned by SEELE
- never enacted by SEELE
- taking place after the process had started
- done on her own volition and by her own free will

this being obvious from just watching EoE, listening to SEELE and observing the order of events as well as listening to Rei.

Then again, be critical. If Rei actually wanted Shinji to remain in instrumentality, why would she argue so strongly against it? Why would she at all give Shinji a choice, if it was hers to give? Just think about it.

The reason Rei pulls Shinji out while criticizing him for wanting instrumentality is easy to pinpoint: she doesn't want that for Shinji, or mankind. Rei herself if perfectly fine with getting back her Lilith body and going full omniscient/omnipresent God.
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>>16861033
>asukafags waking up to the fact their waifu is a doll fucktoy

Indeed. Her is Asuka after someone has finished using her.
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>>16861084
>Says who? You? They looked p. fucking dead mate. Sure they get more destroyed afterwards, but that isn't really surprising.
They stab themselves, quite a long time after they take Rei's form. This is immediately followed by the whole world getting tanged.
Forming a connection between those two events does not require any great leaps in logic. Compare with the spears exploding and the MPEvas being petrified, which is presented in the context of the rest of the Instrumentality appartaus, such as GNR and the Black Moon, being destroyed as well.
>No, it's still connected to everything else it was before.
Who collects everyone's souls? Rei. Where do those souls enter? Rei. What do those souls look like in her? Rei.
>It's even shown that Gendo wasn't keen on starting instrumentality in the first place as shown in EoE, which is why it all develops into a huge confrontation between SEELE and NERV.
>This was also the trigger for starting the two Projects -- the Instrumentality Projects of SEELE and of Gendo.
>Gendo has brought Rei to Lilith to attempt the forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith. Two Instrumentality Projects being executed simultaneously in the heavens and in the bowels of the earth.
Gendo wanted Instrumentality, end of. Need I remind you he was the one that proposed it in the first place?
>If Rei actually wanted Shinji to remain in instrumentality, why would she argue so strongly against it? Why would she at all give Shinji a choice, if it was hers to give?
If Rei wanted Shinji out that strongly, why didn't she kick him out and end Instrumentality herself?
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>>16861140
>They stab themselves, quite a long time after they take Rei's form.
Not a long time, but enough time for them to have risen a bit higher in the atmosphere.

>This is immediately followed by the whole world getting tanged.
The world was already getting tanged prior, as we've seen multiple people get tanged already.

>Who collects everyone's souls? Rei. Where do those souls enter? Rei. What do those souls look like in her? Rei.
Correct, because Rei have supplanted the MP-EVA's at this point. MP-EVA's were under the direction of SEELE. Without their control, Rei is now free to get to Shinji.

However, because Shinji is the one in control - instrumentality continues. All Rei can do at this point is to make the transition process easier for people. Which she does, at least for those it is possible for.

>Gendo wanted Instrumentality, end of. Need I remind you he was the one that proposed it in the first place?
As a means to get to Yui. Both to keep himself in power and to research what he needs to get to Yui. Instrumentality itself he has no use for.

Consider the opening scenes of EoE, where Gendo is arguing against instrumentality. Even Fuyutsuki is aboard with Gendo here, and he also said Yui would have wanted everyone to live. SEELE on their hand is pro-instrumentality.

Also use your own head for a little bit. Why would Gendo want to be joined in instrumentality ? He wants Yui back. With instrumentality, there IS no Yui. That's why Gendo tells Rei not to "start" instrumentality, but to guide him to Yui.

>If Rei wanted Shinji out that strongly, why didn't she kick him out and end Instrumentality herself?
Because as you may realize, that was never in Rei's power. Shinji controls the reins. This is necessary for both the plot to work, and the narrative. If Shinji is the subject who is to learn to avoid escapism, he must be capable of making the decision himself. Him and only him.
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SEELE has the plan ready.
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>>16861163
This is from early in the film.
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>>16861163
>>16861168
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>>16861159
>>16861140
Instrumentality is Shinji's choice to start, and his choice to end.

All Rei can do is "force her way in" and talk some sense into Shinji. If Rei could fix everything, that would ruin the movie. It would be a happier ending, but it would be artistically bankrupt.
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>>16861159
>The world was already getting tanged prior, as we've seen multiple people get tanged already.
Only people in the Black Moon.
>Correct, because Rei have supplanted the MP-EVA's at this point. MP-EVA's were under the direction of SEELE.
And why, pray tell, did Anno and the rest have Rei be the one doing all this? Could it possibly have anything to do with returning to the womb?
>That's why Gendo tells Rei not to "start" instrumentality, but to guide him to Yui.
And you're completing ignoring that both the EoE theatrical pamphlet and episode 25 explicitly state that Gendo wants Instrumentality.
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>>16861168
>>16861169

And once the spear gets called back, Seele shifts gears and immediately starts talking about binding Lilith again.

Its only after they use the spear to form the Tree of Life for the purpose of binding Lilith that Lilith/Rei suddenly starts giving a shit about whats going on on the surface and fucks off to do whatever the Unit 01 pilot asks of her.

Its just as likely that Lilith was drawn into that like a moth to a flame, Seele's plan having its intended effect upon her, as it is that Rei made any kind of conscious choice about the matter.
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>>16861194
>Only people in the Black Moon.
In other words, people were being tanged.

>And why, pray tell, did Anno and the rest have Rei be the one doing all this?
Because as the plot/story has developed the characters so far, Rei is currently trying to get to Shinji. Rei and Shinji being developed together as two people who could understand each other and be kind is paramount to this being possible.

The question should be: who else BUT Rei?

>And you're completing ignoring that both the EoE theatrical pamphlet and episode 25 explicitly state that Gendo wants Instrumentality.
I don't see anything in the theatrical pamphlet saying that, nor in episode 25. Only that Gendo had been working towards it on behalf of SEELE. The same pamphlets also explain that Gendo had their own agenda that differed from SEELE's. Moreover, both series and EoE makes it clear that Gendo isn't looking for instrumentality.

Again, I'm not ignoring a single speck of evidence. You keep ignoring virtually everything in the movies and extra materials just to obsess over your own misinterpretation of a symbolically interpreted scene.
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>>16861402
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>>16861402
>>16861407
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>>16861402
>>16861407
>>16861415
...there is a fundamental difference of opinion in what Gendo wants and SEELE wants.

Gendo just wants to return to Yui. Instrumentality would destroy all of his plans - PERMANENTLY.
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>>16861357
>And once the spear gets called back, Seele shifts gears and immediately starts talking about binding Lilith again.
They don't. At most they refer to Lilith through EVA01. That they are to use EVA01 as "The copy of Lilith" to make do.

>but Rei was drawn like a moth to a flame!
No, as Rei specifically explains her motivation. The previous 26 episodes also explain her motivation concerning Shinji and Gendo as well. If that's not enough, they probably foresaw the bitter jealousy Rei's grandiose arc would instill in Asuka fans, and so the theatrical pamphlets include this explicitly:

>At the final stage of the Instrumentality Project, Rei betrayed Gendou, returned to Lilith of her own judgment
>returned to Lilith of her own judgment
>her own judgment

Can I be honest with you? So far it seems that we haven't been having a real discussion about what happened as much as you keep pushing and pushing towards putting Rei in a worse light than the movie or story actually does. The second one of your dumb theories get shut down, you come up with another one that's even dumber and easier to shut down by just referring to the source material. Now since I've humoured your "theories" for some time, won't you humour me?

So what if Rei really is that great? What if indeed, she is exactly like the movie and narrative sells her as, and not some secret subversive agent borne in the conspiratorial minds of fans? Would that really ruin your enjoyment of Evangelion and your favorite characters? Asuka doesn't get any worse if Rei is a force for good in the show, you know.

Evangelion doesn't only make more sense without your conspiracy theories, it's also a better story. Instead of just being a "HEY, SHAME ON U OTAKUS" for being escapist, it also becomes a helping guide and demonstration of how relationships can end well. It becomes the story it's actually praised for being, a story where even the loneliest of people can accept reality as well and work with what they have.
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>>16861431
>>16861357
So take ten minutes. Sit back a little.

Think about all the great things Rei did, realize that without Rei being self-sacrificial, none of those people or characters you liked would even be alive at the end. Especially Asuka, whom Rei saves on more than one occasion.

Sit down and show some respect and appreciation.
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>>16860865
Fuck off. Back in my days we used to discuss who was hotter, not all this bullshit.
>the Evangelions were literally the coolest thing and coolest concept I had ever seen in the cucked,shitty 14 years of my miserable life. Fuck off.
That should be the advertisement for the series.
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>>16861402
>In other words, people were being tanged.
In a very specific place though, not worldwide.
>Because as the plot/story has developed the characters so far, Rei is currently trying to get to Shinji.
And why did they throw massive amounts of mother symbolism on Rei?
>I don't see anything in the theatrical pamphlet saying that, nor in episode 25.
I gave you quotes from the theatrical pamphlet. And here's the relevant bit from 25:
>Gendo: Come, let us go. You have existed for this day, today, Rei.
>Rei: Yes.
>AND THEN...
>THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF MANKIND BEGINS
Gendo then proceeds to give an explanation of Instrumentality.
>>
Nobody prefers Rei over Asuka or vice verse because any of them is "strong independent" whatever. It's mysterious girl vs crazy girl and everything else is just a post-facto rationalization.
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>>16861454
>In a very specific place though, not worldwide.
They only showed one place, you're going to have a hard time proving it happened nowhere else. Point being, tanging had begun and would only intensify from that point on.

>And why did they throw massive amounts of mother symbolism on Rei?
Because Rei is indeed, a "mother" of sorts. She is after all, Lilith. Now, there's a powergap between Rei's actual character and the kind of symbolism you attempt to put on her. For instance, if Rei were to also represent that kind of enveloping and loving motherhood that would come with the return to the womb, wouldn't she unconditionally and instantly take to Shinji? Shinji wouldn't need to earn Rei's kindess or respect, it would be granted. But Rei is harsh against Shinji, and doesn't skip a single moment to tell him he's wrong or that he's running away. Moreover, as discussed earlier, Rei would never kick him out of instrumentality or shame him from being there if you were at any point right.

If Rei is in any way like a mother, it's the responsible, guiding and caretaking part that sticks, not the one that allows escapism. Because all little girls, when they mature and grow responsible become mothers. It's a good thing, something you can admire Rei for.

>I gave you quotes from the theatrical pamphlet.
You did, but left out the context which I expanded on. Continuing the sentence, we get this:
>Will people achieve complementation in either case…? The answer lies within Eva-01….
and
>People's future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

The point that I've been making, and EoE makes, is that the instrumentality that was achieved and would be achieved, was without Rei. It lies in the hands of Shinji. Not Rei. Rei refused, remember?

>And here's the relevant bit from 25:
Which doesn't contradict anything, since 25 is explicitly a shortened down version. There's even a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode if I recall correctly.
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>>16861466
That's a good observation that rings true. Evangelion is confusing enough to have people misunderstand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters beyond the immediate surface value.

I'm attempting to be objective in arguing Rei's case here, and I believe there's a reason for why the booty-bothered Asuka fan attempts to rag so much on Rei. Because on paper, Rei is infinitely stronger and more noble than Asuka is. Quite frankly, Rei makes Asuka look bad. Not only that, Rei's high popularity only makes the Asuka fan feel like crap. Makes them insecure, and angry. Asuka on paper represents some very negative values they wouldn't want to be associated with.

So the modus operandi of Asuka fans is to ignore the content of the series and replace it with external fan interpretation where they can more easily turn the story upside down. It's a post-facto rationalization of why people flock to Rei and Rei was better than Asuka, the girl they liked because they liked conventional anime characters.
Naturally Rei may be super-strong on paper, but it's really the mystery and character arc that draws people in, the idea that there's hope in the character.
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>>16861477
>They only showed one place, you're going to have a hard time proving it happened nowhere else.
The one place that just so happens to be the centre of the entire thing. After the MPEvas impale themselves is the first indication of tanging being a worldwide thing. There's no proof that the real Misato didn't die in Second Impact and was replace by a clone, but that doesn't make it true.
>She is after all, Lilith.
And why is she Lilith, hmm?
>For instance, if Rei were to also represent that kind of enveloping and loving motherhood that would come with the return to the womb, wouldn't she unconditionally and instantly take to Shinji? Shinji wouldn't need to earn Rei's kindess or respect, it would be granted. But Rei is harsh against Shinji, and doesn't skip a single moment to tell him he's wrong or that he's running away. Moreover, as discussed earlier, Rei would never kick him out of instrumentality or shame him from being there if you were at any point right.
Rei is a more complex figure than just a mother allegory. Note that the conversations between her and Shinji in Instrumentality are calm, and Shinji seems comfortable. She's perhaps not voluntarily a mother. But it's there, and considering Anno's frequent comments on Freud, it's highly unlikely her motherly aspects are just meant to be another thing to waifu her for.
>not the one that allows escapism
APART FROM WHEN SHINJI RETURNS TO HER WOMB You keep finding ways to ignore that little piece of symbolism.
>You did, but left out the context which I expanded on.
Either way, Gendo wanted Instrumentality.
>since 25 is explicitly a shortened down version.
I'm not sure it's worth carrying on a debate about Eva with someone who doesn't even realise 25/26 and EoE are entirely separate endings.
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>>16861484
I'm not even an Asukafag m8. Waifuing any of pilots is retarded.
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>>16861498
People still pick favorites based on the things you mentioned, moreso than any in-depth instant understanding.
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>>16861466
Yes and no. That may have been true for people just getting into the series (or faggots who've never watched it), but if there's nothing under the hood they're not gonna retain interest. How many shallow ""mysterious"" quiet blue-haired girls popped up in Eva's wake, and how many remained popular even a few years later?
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>>16861492
>why is she lilith hmmm
>what if something didnt happened off screen hmmm
>it's highly unlikely
None of these are actually arguments, as much as they are a reflection of your desire, or rather need, for Rei to be secretly "worse" than how she's portrayed in the series.

Instead of asking open-ended questions out of desperation since you've run out of arguments - try doing what asuka couldn't, self-reflect and introspect a little. Lets turn it around: if Anno wanted so desperately to portray Rei as this type of "mother" you describe, which represents escapism - why exactly did he make her character explicitly reject it through not just her own development, but also advise it for others?

>APART FROM WHEN SHINJI RETURNS TO HER WOMB You keep finding ways to ignore that little piece of symbolism.
You keep pretending that "symbolism" hasn't been thoroughly debunked. See above and the rest of the thread.

>b-but you dont get they are SEPARATE
Not an argument either. You also misunderstood what I said. It's a shortened down version, but I didn't say it was a shortened down version of EoE. What I'm referring to is pic related.

>>16861508
Rei sticked because she was an integral part of a great story, and she had strength of character as well an admirable personality, despite her flaws. Asuka didn't stick as well because while an interesting character, she wasn't as strong and could only be used by otaku to fantasize. On her own, Asuka is a nobody in the story. She doesn't have Rei's strength, or even any of Rei's positive development.

By design.
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>>16861521
I give up. If you can't see how Shinji entering Rei's womb is meant to be Shinji entering Rei's womb, there's no hope for you. You're the absolute worst sort of waifufag - the one who distorts reality so they can happily ignore all the extremely blatant oedipal symbolism surrounding their waifu.
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>>16861533
You're describing yourself and applying that shit to me. Stop projecting already.

You're not saving face, and I'm not even sorry I had to destroy your fantasy ecapist version of Evangelion. Maybe after you've calmed down a bit you'll see it in a more mature, non-obsessive way.

also
Rei > Asuka
and that's a non-waifufag, global opinion.
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>>16861538
I'd like to say I destroyed your retarded waifufag version of Eva, but you're too retarded for me to get through to you.
>>
Whenever you wonder why /m/ shits on eva fans, remember this thread and the ones like it.
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>>16861538
For Asuka, and Asukafans, that sort of behavior is pathological and difficult to fix.

Asuka had no real sense of "self", and she refused to look at herself for what she was. So instead of criticizing herself, she projected her own negative traits onto others around her, and criticized them instead.

Asuka fans do the same to Rei and Rei fans, they take Asuka's doll personality and project it onto Rei. The same mistake Asuka made.
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>>16861593
>BUT WHAT ABOUT RETURNING TO THE WOMB?!
>lots of explanation using screenshots, citations and more
>BUT RETURNING TO THE WOMB! IT MUST MEEN SOMETHING!
>even more explanation, screenshots and citations
>RETURN TO WOMB! I WANNA RETURN TO THE WOOMB

Get through yourself first. You've been humiliated this entire thread, not proving or substantiating a single post.
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>>16861533

Now you know how I feel. I was >>16860890

I don't know if its the same guy every time or what (/m/ is a small board after all) but every so often I make the mistake of thinking I can have an honest debate with a Reifag and what I get every time is an impenetrable headcanon and complete disregard for any facts that conflict with the same.

Of course, since I criticized him he's going to spit out his default "asukafag" nonsense, as if no one could ever disagree with him for any reason other than which 14 year old girl they lust over.
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>>16861611
Except you didn't have a single goddamned argument that didn't fall apart the second you made it, realized you got destroyed, and went out crying.
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>>16861611
>impenetrable headcanon
It's called "canon". It's the thing in the screenshots you've been seeing. Notice the part where you had nothing of that to contribute to the debate, so you dishonestly provided internalized rationalizations of Evangelion instead?
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>>16849953
I'll ask again, how was NGE different, groundbreaking and experimental?
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>>16861651
nobody had mashed up Gerry Anderson and Ultraman and tryhard edgelording before it
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>>16856320
>Reminder that Rei was a cheap plot device, a dumb eldritch monster with mass cloned spare, it don't show any intelligence or initiative despite having god-like power like Kaoru and just served as an enabler for Anno's self insert.
>Even Asuka had real character development.
Were you really paying attention?. Everything you said does not make sense
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>>16860751
>Meanwhile, on the flip side, you have Asuka: a girl with about as many hangups and flaws as Shinji has. A relationship with Asuka is going to be hard and painful, but its one that requires each of them to grow as people to make it work. Which is, after all, the message of Eva: yes, relationships can be painful but you should open yourself up and try anyway. Because even the pain of failure from having tried is better than festering in your stagnation and doing nothing.

Can you explain to me how it could be possible to have a relationship with Asuka, a really false person, who has imposed another personality by denying the real Asuka?
A relationship between Shinji and Asuka does not represent progress, nor is it positive in any way, do you really understand the character of Asuka?
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>>16862000
He's not treating them as characters, just as things to revolve around Shinji. Like routes in a hentai VN. Note he brings up Rei's genetic makeup, like fucking her was the only thing she was good for.
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>>16862022
If you say it like that, then it makes sense
Obviously the anon only want said muh incest, that's one of the many ways by which he tries to attack Rei, to say Asuka> Rei
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>>16862000
> Can you explain to me how it could be possible to have a relationship with Asuka, a really false person, who has imposed another personality by denying the real Asuka?

Leading question much? You want to just package the answer you want for him while you are at it?
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>>16862037
Do you want to answer instead of him, or what do you mean exactly?
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>>16850025
/thread
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>>16860977
You forgot the other half.
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>>16861607
Shinji returns to Rei's womb. Rei is written to be both a partial clone of Shinji's mother and the mother of all life on the planet. Shinji accepting reality requires him separating from Rei. Anno has frequently compared escapism to returning to the womb.
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>>16862533
You're still at it, you crazy sad little man? Even when that is the case, Rei explicitly prevents that from happening.

Get over it. Your shitty waifu Asuka is a doll who represents escapism, and that's why she doesn't get a say in making any decisions.
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>>16862022
>>16862036
Asuka fans are used to seeing the characters as just vehicles for escapism. Something they get off to. Like >>16861466 intelligently points out, the characters known by Asuka fans are just a post-facto rationalization. Subsequently they are mentally rewritten to fit the Asukafags headcanon.

Because Asuka fans are so delusional, they have great difficulty separating their headcanon from the actual canon and actually get upset when the actual canon is brought up.

Anno really gave it to them in EoE, and they've never been quite the same since.

>>16862037
Not him, but he hasn't provided any leading questions, mentioning Asuka's de facto character can't be construed as "leading" unless you had the intention of being misleading yourself.
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>>16862498
>>16860977
>asukafags still defend the Rebuilds
This explains why.
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>>16862682
When Shinji rejects escapism, he ends up with Asuka. It's not my fault you're blind to the symbolism.
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>>16862830
When Shinji rejects escapism, he tries to choke Asuka to death. It's not my fault you're blind to the symbolism.
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>>16862830
It's your fault for misinterpreting the show and the final scene. Quick rundown:

- Evangelion uses 19 full episodes and 99.99% of a movie to demonstrate that Asuka is a lost cause,
- Asuka uses and represents escapism hersefl
- Evangelion also makes sure to use those 26 episodes to show Rei rejecting escapism and accepting reality,
- Rei passes on that wisdom to others, with varying results
- EoE comes along and Rei's actions to refuse Gendo's instrumentality and ending SEELE's drive the plot

then the final scene happens. Do you now realize why it could ONLY be Asuka there and no one else? Because if Evangelion is to end on a good note, to show that it could have meaning, and hope - only Asuka could be there. Asuka is the most crazy, insane and mindless puppet of ALL the characters in Evangelion. She has absolutely no hope of managing on her own.

If they put this character at the end, the one that represents escapism - and have the character who just rejected escapism choke said character, only for there to be a possibly positive reaction from Asuka - Evangelion sends the message that even for Asuka, there may be hope. It ends on a speculative note.

Rei is also there in the final scene, by the way.
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>>16860652
>>16860660
But didn't he just talk about how she uses her inner voice via monolouges?
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>>16861437
>>16861431
Not that anon, but then why do people use it to argue about why she's better than Asuka?
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>>16862898
Why do people use what? Rei is better than Asuka, that the narrative supports that is just the icing on the cake.
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>>16862841
Asuka only falls to escapism for a short period of time. She is the normalfag overachiever, unafraid to push others around. She doesn't fall to escapism, but instead rejects reality as a whole, becoming quickly catatonic and then comatose after only a very short time of denial with videogames. The idea is that a hyper-normalfag like Asuka cannot deal with chronic escapism as a way of life. If her real life pursuits fail she dies. If she truly represented escapism she would have played videogames forever and became a bum. Are you going to be retarded and say her pursuit of self-validation after her mother's death was escapism? Pursuit real life achievement cannot be classified as escapism by any stretch of the term.
>>
asuka is better because she has long hair
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>>16862841
>Rei is also there in the final scene

Rei is implied to be there in every scene. During the 3rd impact she is spread across time and space and that's why she's there in Ep1 even before she ever met Shinji.
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>>16862830
>When Shinji rejects escapism, he ends up with Asuka. It's not my fault you're blind to the symbolism.

Are you saying that Shinji rejected the instrumentality with the help of Asuka, or that he "chose" to her, because she represents the reality?

>>16862924
>Asuka only falls to escapism for a short period of time.

If Asuka was not escaping from herself by denying herself, then what was she doing since she lost her mother?. Asuka at no time wants to accept the reality about her, so she run away
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>>16862931
Rei is always there.
Just like reality.
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>>16862924
>Asuka only falls to escapism for a short period of time.

Asuka lived her entire life on escapism. She didn't SUDDENLY start going catatonic because of a problem that arose then and there. Up until that point, her puppet master (AKA NERV) had been feeding her delusion. Once they take away her delusion, she collapses.

There is nothing normal about Asuka, she is a sick person who needs therapy. She isn't pursuing achievements she is so empty inside she requires others to validate her. That's why she wants to pilot.
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>>16862926
Hair length is a poor basis to judge character. Rei can just grow her hair out. We can cut Asuka's hair.
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>>16862983
Yeah but they don't.
Rei has short hair
Asuka has long hair
Deal with it
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>>16863012
Someone will post THAT picture you know.
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>>16863027
>>16863012
>>16862983
You now realize the reason Rei has cut hair, is because she has CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
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>>16862682
>Rei explicitly prevents that from happening.

Rei doesn't prevent anything. Lilith during Third impact has no will or plan of her own. She only does what is asked of her.

Lilith explains the facts of the situation to Shinji when he asks what is going on, but she never pushes him towards one outcome over another. Causing Instrumentality was Shinji's choice, Lilith just did the heavy lifting. And when Shinji rejects that upon finding out what it really means, Lilith does the heavy lifting to grant that request to.

But saying that Rei/Lilith had any kind of hand in choosing what the outcome was is entirely your projection.
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>>16862839
>When Shinji rejects escapism, he tries to choke Asuka to death

Yes. Because thats him opening himself to others.

Shinji spends the show with a LOT of bottled up frustration and anger that he doesn't let out because his survival strategy is to be polite and docile instead to avoid conflict or rejection. On the beach, Shinji lets his filters down and expresses that rage on Asuka.

Likewise, Asuka accepts and expresses the feelings she has been denying feeling about Shinji, reaching out to him with tenderness rather than aggression.

In that one moment, they two of them are being entirely honest with each other. Thats accepting reality.

And then Shinji starts crying and Asuka insults him, because old habits die hard. Change isn't easy, and they both still have maturing to do, but they made important first steps by being open with each other if only for a few moments.

Its the capstone to a story about the hedgehogs dilemma for a reason.
>>
>>16862841

> Evangelion uses 19 full episodes and 99.99% of a movie to demonstrate that Asuka is a lost cause

Opinion, though if we want to be pedantic its mathematically false simply as a result of the fact that Asuka doesn't even have the amount of screentime you describe

> Asuka uses and represents escapism hersefl

Opinion

> Evangelion also makes sure to use those 26 episodes to show Rei rejecting escapism and accepting reality,

Very much opinion

> Rei passes on that wisdom to others, with varying results

Thats not even an opinion, thats just false. You would be hard pressed to find more than a line or two of dialog of hers that could even potentially be cast as being about that. It is in no way a theme of hers.

> EoE comes along and Rei's actions to refuse Gendo's instrumentality and ending SEELE's drive the plot

I could argue that Rei doesn't actually make any choices at all in EoE, but lets set that aside. That's not what Driving the plot means. Rei might enable the plot once Third Impact starts, but you are forgetting that Rei spends most of the movie standing silently in a basement with no interaction with the events around her. She doesn't drive the plot in any respect.

> then the final scene happens. Do you now realize why it could ONLY be Asuka there and no one else? Because if Evangelion is to end on a good note, to show that it could have meaning, and hope - only Asuka could be there. Asuka is the most crazy, insane and mindless puppet of ALL the characters in Evangelion. She has absolutely no hope of managing on her own.
> If they put this character at the end, the one that represents escapism - and have the character who just rejected escapism choke said character, only for there to be a possibly positive reaction from Asuka - Evangelion sends the message that even for Asuka, there may be hope. It ends on a speculative note.

Wow. Theres a lot to unpack with whats wrong with that.
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>>16862967
>If Asuka was not escaping from herself by denying herself, then what was she doing since she lost her mother?. Asuka at no time wants to accept the reality about her, so she run away

Thats not what escapism means, bro. You are so insistent on forcing this argument to work that you are inventing whole new terms.
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>>16863473
I ask you again if Asuka by denying herself is not escaping from the truth, then what is she doing?
What is escapism for you?
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>>16863429
>Rei doesn't prevent anything. Lilith during Third impact has no will or plan of her own. She only does what is asked of her.
Fanwank, she's shown to reject Gendo earlier for instance.

>But saying that Rei/Lilith had any kind of hand in choosing what the outcome was is entirely your projection.
It's what happened. The fact that Rei/Lilith barges into the entire operation and tells Shinji what he's doing is bad, is absolute proof really.

Denying it doesn't helps you.
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>>16861676
>Ultraman
KAIJU, fucking KAIJU, not Ultraman specifically.
How long will it take you retards to understand this?
There is nothing Ultraman-ish about Eva and Ultraman is not the sole presentetive of "giant monsters who move slow" genre.
Try watching any Showa Ultraman for yourself before saying this nonsense.
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>>16863467
>Opinion
Fact.
>its mathematically false simply
Deliberate, pedantic misinterpretation of what I wrote.

>Opinion
Fact.

>Very much opinion
Fact.

>Thats not even an opinion, thats just false.
It's a fact.

>I could argue that Rei doesn't actually make any choices at all in EoE
and you'd be objectively wrong. Even the theatrical pamphlets that come with the movie shit on your opinion.

>spends most of the movie standing silently in a basement
>She doesn't drive the plot in any respect.
She makes the decisions that form the plot, overriding the decisionsof the most powerful men and organizations on earth. That's the facts.

>Wow. Theres a lot to unpack
There's nothing wrong with it.
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>>16863473
He's right dude. Asuka is a puppet, who feeds off the delusion NERV feeds her through making her believe she is an "ace special EVA-pilot". In order to run away from reality and avoid facing her past, she engorges herself on that very fantasy. When the angel Arael shows her the truth, she loses it.

He's not forcing the argument, NGE did and you're rejecting it because you're a biased waifufag or at the very least, repeating the opinion of one.
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>>16863442
>Yes. Because thats him opening himself to others.
By choking them? I'm sorry but no one is going to buy that. Shinji already choked Asuka earlier in the series, and is nowhere near "polite" when he rages at her in the hospital room and uses her as a cumrag.
Painting the horrible situation and the disgusting wreck that is Asuka with pink color through rose-colored glasses only manages to emphasize just how far out you are.

It's not a coincidence that Asuka goes full escapism for her entire character arc with not a single speck of on-screen character development, and Rei and Shinji gets tonnes of it.

Asuka = Escapism
Rei = Accepting Reality
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>>16863608

Thats a bullshit question because you are forcing the conversation into assuming your premise is already correct, when the premise itself is whats false.

There's no way to answer it correctly without first walking back what you are saying because you stuffed half of the answer you want me to say into my mouth in the form of the question.
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>>16864109
Not him but that's bullshit. You're just evading the actual topic of both Evangelion and the one ITT. He asked you a damned simple question from what I can tell.
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>>16864170

> he

Come on, this is 2018. Did you think no one would notice?
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>>16850025
>and many, many others
So many, in fact, that literally everyone considers Eva to be more important and bigger than all of them (with exception to maybe Gundam). Seriously, the number of anime that actually sit on the same level of Eva is fewer than 20, out of literally thousands.

>>16850097
>X WAS FIRST
You fucking Western-centered losers need to learn that Eastern thought is not obsessed with novelty like we are. They don't give a shit that Eva is just a composite of a bunch of shit that came before it. Novelty is strictly a Western obsession.
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>>16864224
Yes, he, you pathetic cunt. Instead of being so fucking insecure you can't handle being called out from the sidelines, try owning up to your shit evasion of the topic.
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>>16864265

Forgive me if I am not taking this conversation as seriously as you are. I emotionally checked out once you admitted in your own post that you can't tell the difference between your opinion and fact. Considering the travesty of what you did to the word escapism, I have to assume that your definition of either 'opinion' or of 'fact' is so wildly divergent from the dictionary that arguing over the distinction is like arguing grammar with someone speaking Chinese.

At this point I'm mostly just curious how far your delusional rabbit hole goes.
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>>16864377
What the fuck are you talking about? FYI I'm not actually >>16863608 so I don't give a single shit, just get your shit together and stop acting like a fucking beta cunt shitting up what could be good Evangelion threads.
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>>16864109
Can you try to answer my question, instead of evading it for the third time?
You know the answer and you do not want to say because you know I'm right
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>>16850025
You do realize Eva is more profitable than all of these right?
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>ctrl+F
>escapism
>53 occurrence
I honestly believe there's only one reifu-fag using that word so he don't have to explain his fetish for mass-produced magical doll
Asuka fag are still retarded
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>>16864584
More profitable than Gundam? I somehow doubt it.
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>>16865136
They did sell canned bacon, glasses & wallet.
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>>16865125
I''d say it's more to do with denying the obvious return to the womb stuff going on.
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>>16865282
meh, couldn't bother to read the face off between the reifag and the asukafag
NGE use the womb for symbolism everywhere, it's probably just waifufag trying to pin all the bad thing unto the other to escape the realization that every single character of NGE are as fucked up as the others

except yui, the true mastermind
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>>16865125
Anti-escapism is one of EVA's biggest themes.
>>
>muh return to the womb
How the fuck can you return to a womb you never popped out of? That's just sticking your dick in her, dude. Shinji sure ain't unbirthing himself here >>16865332
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>>16865125
Evangelion conveys ideas that running away all the time, AKA "escapism" isn't a good thing. It's not that you can't have fun with a fantasy or read a book once in a while, it just can't define your life. Anno when asked said something along the lines of "I don't get why people think running away is bad!", continuing to explain that some times it's all right.
The "return to the womb" does symbolize escapism, which is why the entry plugs are at times defined as the "womb". Indeed the entry plug it's a warm vessel filled with amniotic fluid, connecting the child within ot their mothers. It's pretty explicit.

In the show, the children have varying dependence on that womb.
Rei, who is motherless and self-dependent, has no dependency or need for the womb beyond using it for her own gain.
Shinji, who lost his mother in the EVA and was reintroduced to her at the age of 14, finds some comfort in it but is also terrified of it, and frequently refuses to enter it.
Asuka who also lost her mother in the EVA, has lived her entire life being dependent on it. She is unable to live without it.

So yes, Asukafags ITT are retarded for missing that obvious bit of symbolism.

>>16865332
>everything is equally bad!
Brainlet detected.
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>>16865417

You cant define the entry plug as returning to the womb AND as escapism, because escapism is how you escape the hardships of your life, and the entry plug is the hardest goddamn part of these characters lives.

Piloting an Eva is a painful, high stress and high stakes job. You can't call that escapism without rewriting the definition of the word.
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>>16865471
It's literally a womb. It's not up for debate. Returning it or being dependent on it is has undeniable symbolical implications.

>because escapism is how you escape the hardships of your life

Which is what Asuka uses it for. Instead of facing her own past, and building her own personality based on herself, she relies on being in the womb of the EVA for meaning.
Shinji temporarily finds a use for that, as being inside the "womb" makes him feel praised. But he also is stressed out by it and fears it, wanting to break out.
Rei doesn't need the womb, and instead tries to understand it - she concludes that there's something else in there, and that the EVA's have souls. She tries to share this with Asuka, but Asuka is too dependent on the womb being what she needs it to be. She wont accept reality like Rei does.

Piloting the EVA might result in pain, but for e.g Asuka that pain is preferable to the real world pain, and the womb is comfortable for her. Mommy is there. Quoting Asuka, she would rather die than stop being an EVA pilot.
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>>16865510

You cant saying that the entry plug intrinsically means something, but not for all characters involved. If you have to redefine your terms based on who is using it, thats a sign you are forcing the metaphor.

To put it another way: if the entry plug represents escapism, it has to represent escapism for all of the pilots (Rei included) or it doesnt represent that at all and you are just manufacturing a double standard.
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>>16865559
Consider it this way, is a book escapism? Is playing a video game escapism? Is working your day job escapism?
You would perhaps answer, "depending on the use" - and you'd be right. You can immerse yourself in books, video games or even your work to escape from another aspect of your life that troubles you.

The "entry plug" is in a very unsubtle way likened to a womb. If you look at the EVA-characters and how they use this artificial "womb", you'll see it's the same thing. It's not that piloting an EVA is inherently escapism, it's the dependence and usage of it that is. Because the characters relate to this artificial womb in different ways, that means the meaning changes for each characters.
If Rei is a person who works her day job competently every day to make end meets and make the world a better place, then Asuka is someone who spends all her time at work to get away from her own family problems. Shinji is somewhere in the middle, he is the more "normal" case.

The symbolism of EVA piloting and the entry plug as an "artificial womb" isn't coincidental. Neither is the fact that the use of it isn't an absolute condemnation of escapism either. Similar with other freudian aspects of the show, it's entirely possible to have a positive relationship with the "mother" as well as the "father".

So if the entry plug wasn't a fleshy void filled with amniotic fluid placed inside the pilot's mother, but just a regular cockpit - you could extend the same metaphor to it still. The character's problems would remain the same. Evangelion chose to make things a little more creepy and obvious by literally calling it a womb and shaping it to be reminiscent of one.
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>>16854719
I hope you get it and Asuka is cast as a BAME like Ciri
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>>16865588
>>16865559
Asuka is clearly supposed to be a jab at the escapist otaku.

I mean, literally getting lost in a fantasy about being the best giant robot pilot ever, and ruining your life and relationships over it....

Hit a little close to home yet?
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>>16865600
Isn't piloting a giant robot actually a reality for Asuka? She's as much lost in escapist fantasy as pro sportsmen and workaholics.
Wow it's almost as if Anno was a hack.
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>>16865647
It isn't. She isn't piloting a giant robot valiantly combating the enemies of mankind. The enemies, the "Angels" aren't alien space invaders, they're inhabitants of the Earth being systematically lured out by NERV itself.
Second Impact was an inside job framed on the Angels.
She wasn't picked for her ability, but because her mother volunteered her.
She wasn't special, she was made to believe she was special and used like a doll and then discarded.

Even for Asuka, her viewpoint of it is a fantasy. A fantasy she uses to escape her real life.

Rei and Shinji are able to understand the treachery because they don't depend on escapism.
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>>16865659

...so Asukas life is an escapist fantasy because of details that even most high ranking Nerv officials dont know due to a literal global conspiracy?

Thats like saying the bridge bunnies are living an escapist fantasy because they dont know the coffee machine in the break room uses instant rather than real ground beans.
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>>16865689
Asuka's life is an escapist fantasy because she depends on that fantasy to live and function. She routinely refuses to question those things, even when other characters bring it up. It's not because of the existence of a conspiracy, but because Asuka is dependent on the conspiracy not being revealed to have meaning in her life.

The bridge bunnies would be free to suspect and investigate whether or not there were real ground beans in the coffee machine, but Asuka would go "ANTA BAKA!?! ITS REAL GROUND BEANS NERV SAYS SO, YUM YUM DELICIOUS COFFEE GROUND BEANS".

Evangelion not only likens Asuka to the escapist otaku dreaming about being a heroic super robot pilot and being praised for it, but it also completely destroys that fantasy and along with it, Asuka. That's why Asuka is reduced to a babbling, delusional mess while Rei conquers NERV and becomes God.
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>>16865708

But denial and fantasy require the alternative to be available to you. You can be wrong about something for lack of the information exposing the truth, but you cant be in denial because of it. Thats not what denial means.

And denial is the basis of escapism. No denial, no escapism. Asuka never has the information needed for her piloting career to be based on denial.

Indeed, quite the opposite. Even if she wasnt the best Eva pilot, she still was one. Calling her special isnt a fantasy, its a fact. Why? Because there are only fucking three of them on the planet, and until Shinji showed up at the last minute she was one of TWO.

Asukas beliefs cant be called escapist fantasy if for the majority of her life they were validated by her environment.
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>>16865754
>Asuka never has the information needed for her piloting career to be based on denial.
Yes she does. Misato, Rei and Shinji provide the control groups necessary to prove that. They all had doubts and misgivings about NERV and their leaders. Asuka didn't, and when she was confronted, actually refused to give it any thought.

Asuka wasn't simply "wrong" about the situation, she was entirely dependent on it. Asuka was manipulated to be NERV's doll, and her personality was built around NERV's needs. Without her fantasy, Asuka collapsed.

You're denying the canon Asuka to defend your waifufag conception of her.
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>>16850104
Rei is better than Asuka. Misato would be good, but I wouldn't be caught dead with a pedophile.
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>>16865754
This conversation is insane, but at the very least, Asuka is the one that dismisses Shinji and Rei's talk about what the angels are.

Rei had nothing in her life, being raised in a room by medicine alone, and through the series she manages to get her selfhood back, up until the end of the show where she finally reclaims all she's ever been, Lilith.
Asuka lost everything to Eva, and then filled the holes with Eva too, so she never really healed those wounds, since that's where Eva planted it's "strings". The moment she lost the ability to pilot, Eva abandoned her, and she collapsed. It took her mother telling her to love herself, and that she's still with her, for her to manage to put herself together enough to fight back.
In a way, the difference between them both is that Asuka took to Eva to go on living, whilst Rei never really had that option, as Eva used her like a tool to be discarded, and never allowed her any illusion of normalcy.

The problem with NGE is that it tries to make an indictment of the characters as sub-textual allegories, but the text shows them as victims of some heinous shit. Rei's life was outright miserable, and Asuka lost her family, and then her childhood, to Eva.
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>all this fucking analysis
EVA was little more than otaku Anno sperging out over his favorite shows like UFO and Ideon, with Christian shit thrown in because it looked cool and some psychology.

The homage is so heavy his name should be Tarantino, yet you fags say "muh EVA is better than Ideon because it made so many $$$". Anno would kick your ass if he saw you dis his Ideon waifu (the Asuka prototype).

I say this as someone who enjoys the show, but not the circle jerks derived therein.
>>
What's insane is how much the rei-fag will write to defend his flat character with plot armor
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>>16863623

You fucking baboon. Anno's entire image composition and structure is stolen from Jissoji's Ultraman episodes.
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>>16866280
You can stop samefagging.
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>>16866261
Good observations, but Rei could also have relied on the EVA like Asuka did, as could Shinji. Being unable to form a personality is a failure unique to Asuka, and it's also why she fails where Shinji and Rei succeed.
They're clearly all victims, but Asuka remained a puppet while Rei fought back while also doing good unto others. I think NGE tries to show that life isn't really fair for everyone, but that even someone like Rei who has it worse can still make something good out of it, and vice versa with Asuka.
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>>16866269
>with Christian shit thrown in because it looked cool and some psychology.

It's called Ultraman, lool, do you actually think Anno gives a shit about Christianity lore?
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>>16866384
Which Ultraman entry is Evangelion most based on? I'd really want to watch it for reference.
Not that anon.
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>>16866399

Ultraman, Ultraseven, Return of Ultraman.

Shinji's relationship with his dad is a lot like Leo's and Seven's.
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>>16866415
Thanks. Can I just jump into Ultraseven or is the first series required viewing?
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>>16866269
And by psychology, we mean Freud Freud Freud. All psychological issues are formed by stuff like the Oedipus Complex.

>>16866415
And his dad himself is from UFO.
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>>16866378
>Good observations, but Rei could also have relied on the EVA like Asuka did, as could Shinji. Being unable to form a personality is a failure unique to Asuka, and it's also why she fails where Shinji and Rei succeed.

Not really. Rei's possibility to have any semblance of a normal life officially ended the day she met Naoko on the GEHIRN offices. From then she was reincarnated as Rei 2, and brought up in the underground complex, kept in isolation 'till she joined School. But really, she had Gendo as her handler/caretaker, so that was never a possibility, the man couldn't keep a convincing act of care while being honest about "The Plan".
Meanwhile, Asuka had no connection to the conspiracy, so Nerv Germany brought her up in that circus of "Elite Pilot" and "Teenage Genius" with ease, thus her life became irrevocably dependent on their support. While she had little interest on "discovering the unknown", she wasn't really exposed to it 'till the Leliel event first showed what an Eva was, and from then forward her life became a downward spiral of failure, injuries, and Sanity Loss, so she had little chance of self actualization right there.

While it's absurd how nobody catches that Asuka uses "Doll" as an insult due to an obvious case of projection, I don't think she's a "loser" for ending up as she did. She effectively bottled up a decade of trauma, 'till an angel raped the cork and let it out.

In the end, Rei's life was a childhood of misery and isolation, an early adolescence of grievous trauma and abuse, half an hour of power, and death. I don't really care for Anno's metaphors and shit, I think she deserved better, desu.
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>>16866378

None of them really succeed.

Asuka pilots for herself. The one whose approval she needs is her own, because she has systematically cut ties with her remaining family any anyone else. As long as she is proud of herself, she doesn't need external approval. This becomes a massive problem when the source of her pride is removed because she hasn't just lost the approval of some external figure, but her entire sense of self worth. The result is an attempted suicide as a call for help.

Shinji very explicitly pilots for the approval of his father. Approval from others is a nice second place, but its Gendos approval that he really wants. And he never gets it, aside from the most basic of mentions after the Sahaquiel fight, a goodwill that gets burned out entirely during Bardiel. I'm not even sure that Shinji even expresses a continued desire for his dad's approval after that, but he still wants and needs emotional support from others to the point that by the time Kowaru shows up the poor kid is grabbing onto him like a drowning man grasping at straws. This ended badly.

Rei's reason for piloting is, like everything else about her character, so loosely painted and defined that its impossible to talk about it without filling in the gaps with headcanon because there isnt enough material there of substance on its own. She says that she pilots the Eva out of a perceived bond with humanity, but what the fuck that actually MEANS is anyone's guess. Does piloting the Eva actually make her feel closer to the world as a whole? Is she saying that she is in bondage to humanity, and piloting the Eva is the purpose chosen for her? Is she just parroting something Gendo or Ritsuko drilled into her to ensure her compliance in their plans?
Even Rei's ascending back to the form of Lilith isn't her own victory, its the result of machinations that have controlled her life since her creation. Rei being returned to Lilith at the last second was Gendo's whole plan, remember?
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>>16866507
Again I think you have good observations, but I don't see what you mean by "not really". Neither had any chance at a normal life, and indeed, the failure of not forming you own personality/opinion is unique to Asuka.

>While it's absurd how nobody catches that Asuka uses "Doll" as an insult due to an obvious case of projection,
I think it's caught on by most, except it's not mentioned because well, most people have morals. It only gets brought up as a harsh but necessary correction of belligerent Asuka fans repeating the same mistake Asuka did, projecting her dollness no others, most often Rei.

>In the end, Rei's life was a childhood of misery and isolation, an early adolescence of grievous trauma and abuse, half an hour of power, and death. I don't really care for Anno's metaphors and shit, I think she deserved better, desu.
I definitely agree, but narratively it makes for an effective story.
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>>16866525
The problem is that you've fundamentally misunderstood, in fact, lied about the characters.

This:
>Asuka pilots for herself.
is outed as a giant lie by the end of the series. Your appraisal of Asuka is just a repeat of early series Asuka, which was a fake front, a pre-programmed personality she put up that NERV manipulated her into.

Similarly this:
>Shinji very explicitly pilots for the approval of his father.
isn't true either. It's only true for a small period of time, initially he doesn't want anything to do with his father, he is as you know, guilted into piloting the EVA. He gets praised, but his father betrays him and thus no longer pilots for that validation, but for a sense of duty.

Concerning Rei, it's also nonsense because Rei does explain her reasons for piloting in the series. It's a combination of Rei feeling that it's a duty and a bond to protect others, and the fact that it's all she really has. You speak about headcanon, but that's precisely what this is:
>Is she just parroting something Gendo or Ritsuko drilled into her

because that was nowhere in the series at any one point.

Moreover this:
>Even Rei's ascending back to the form of Lilith isn't her own victory, its the result of machinations that have controlled her life since her creation. Rei being returned to Lilith at the last second was Gendo's whole plan, remember?

is also insane, delusional denial of the actual canon. Rei returning to Lilith was never Gendo's plan in itself. Gendo's plan was to return to Yui, Rei returning to Lilith for her own purposes explicitly kills his entire plan. This is why Gendo is left entirely cucked in the End of Evangelion, having lost everything he fought for in his life.

Rei returning to Lilith is Rei's victory, symbolically and practically based on her ongoing development, trying to figure out what she was. Not who - but what.

Your style of dishonest debate is what really creates conflict in the fanbase.
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>>16866532
>Neither had any chance at a normal life, and indeed, the failure of not forming you own personality/opinion is unique to Asuka.

The pilots are 14. If you don't think that every 14 year old's opinions are founded by the environment that shaped them, you don't remember much about teenagers. At that age, most kids are still just parroting things their parents have said because its the only wordview they have ever known.

For someone who was raised by Nerv like Asuka was, how she ended up was basically inevitable. The only reason Rei didn't end up the same is because Gendo basically raised her in a basement. Maybe being part alien she was always going to be a weird kid, but that sort of stunted growing environment can't not result in a stunted individual.

Like, for example: if you assume that the same sort of memory loss that happened between Rei2 and Rei3 happened with Rei->Rei2? It explains perfectly why Rei is so goddamn flat in her expressions and presentations. You learn most of how to read and express emotions before you are three years old. If those memories got lost during the creation of Rei2, it explains a lot about her entire personality going forward: that stage of brain development is already over and done with, and Rei2 skipped it.
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>>16866558
>Gendo's plan was to return to Yui

Yes, for which he needs a fusion of Lilith and Adam to pull off. Its why he stole Adam in the first place, and had Rei created.

In your world, where Gendo never intended to use Rei to control Lilith to get his desired outcome, why the hell would he drag her down to standing right in front of Lilith at the apex of his plan?
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>>16866532
> but I don't see what you mean by "not really".

To put it shortly, Asuka didn't "fail" where Shinji and Rei "succeeded". They all got dealt different hands, and Asuka's lot was such that she was going to end up like that. She was the only pilot they could build up inside a lie.
Shinji got picked too late, and whilst they almost got to sell him on the "Pilot" idea (see episode 16), life came at him too fast, and pulled him back to reality. Rei, meanwhile, was too close to the truth for her to be lied to. She had no bonds to play, and no reason to be sweet talked, since her existence was already under the bondage of NERV, her life was literally theirs to use.

>>16866525
>Rei being returned to Lilith at the last second was Gendo's whole plan, remember?
Yeah, but only fused with Gendo. Her fucking him over and taking Adam was explicitly the moment she broke ties with his bullshit. Did you even watch that scene?

>>16866572
Rei's demeanor is partly nurture, but also due to her apathy at life. She knows her life is not hers, and that NERV has every step of it planned already, so she doesn't care very much. She does still have some degree of interest in living, on some level, considering she reads books on her free time; that's something.

Also, that memory loss seems to be partial, considering her ability to cry of sadness carried over from her last moments as Rei 2 to Rei 3.
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>>16866572
>The pilots are 14
This is just an excuse. Not all 14 year olds are equal. The 14 year olds in Evangelion, is at any rate or independent of your personal beliefs - not equal.

>For someone who was raised by Nerv like Asuka was, how she ended up was basically inevitable.
This isn't true, and as with these:
>The only reason Rei didn't end up the same is because [headcanon]

there isn't much of an understanding of the characters as much as bringing up external possibilities that aren't canon to excuse or rationalize their behavior.

Sticking with NGE first and foremost, there's a discrepancy here that explains the character's behaviors just fine. There's two different ways of seeing things, especially between Asuka and Rei. Where Asuka submits to her own ideal fantasies about herself, Rei refuses such a thing and accepts some very disturbing and unflattering things about herself. It's this attitude that brings about the difference in how the characters eventually end up.
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>>16866589
Why do you make up things like this:
>In your world, where Gendo never intended to use Rei to control Lilith to get his desired outcome
?
Gendo without doubt wanted to use Rei's abilities for himself. But Rei using her own abilities for her own purpose decisively destroys Gendo's ambitions and planning.

The point remains:
>Rei returning to Lilith is Rei's victory, symbolically and practically based on her ongoing development, trying to figure out what she was. Not who - but what.

which isn't only canon, but a necessary cornerstone for the plot and the story's positive message about understanding yourself and others. Rei's "victory" later also becomes Shinji's "victory" in ending instrumentality.
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>>16866590

> Yeah, but only fused with Gendo. Her fucking him over and taking Adam was explicitly the moment she broke ties with his bullshit.

Sure, but Rei regaining the power of Lilith was still always a part of that plan. She doesn't get credit for that part.

You can give her credit for not listening to Gendo and fucking off to ignore his plan, but I'd say that she loses points too for immediately going to service the other Ikari. Given absolute power and freedom, Rei just picks a kinder master to serve instead. Which is certainly a choice, if one that shows a lack of imagination on her part.

>considering she reads books on her free time; that's something.

She goes to school and misses a lot of classes. Did we ever get any indication that her books were anything other than school materials? Not saying that she can't be reading for pleasure, but given there is already a logical reason for her to be reading books we need something more than that to say its done for actual entertainment value.
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>>16866592
> >The only reason Rei didn't end up the same is because [headcanon]

Anon, they even showed us the goddamn basement. Come on.

Do you need a hand-written letter from Anno or something, or would that not be enough to satisfy you because it wasn't broadcast as part of the show?
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>>16866590
>They all got dealt different hands, and Asuka's lot was such that she was going to end up like that. She was the only pilot they could build up inside a lie.

Rei was also built up inside a lie since childhood - that they took her purpose from her, her true identity and shaped it as someone "meaningless" and "replaceable" also was the ultimate lie. In fact, many of the characters were built up inside a lie. This includes Misato, who spent her life fighting the Angels based on the lies she had been told - but even Misato starts having doubts whenever something seems off about the situation.

More importantly, there are actual successes and failures here. Asuka going catatonic because she never managed to do like Rei and assert her own indviduality is her own failure. She chose the easy path, while Rei chose the hard path. The difficulty of the path isn't really the subject here, but it's how they dealt with the problems along the way. Rei by accepting and understanding, Asuka by rejecting and denying.

The failure of Asuka is that she failed to love herself, understand herself and at all, have her own personality that she controlled.
The success of Rei is that she succeeded where Asuka failed, after arguably being controlled much more and being more restricted in not just thinking, but also time.
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>>16866610
The existence of the basement is canon, but your interpretation of it isn't. Your reply there is also a deliberate "misunderstanding" of my argument.

What you're doing is the sort of disingenous debate that's a problem. Stop it.
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>>16866612

> Asuka doesn't have a personality
> but Rei does

Okay. I need you to sit down and explain in crucial detail what you mean when you say 'personality'. Because pic more related than ever.
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>>16866605
This is a classic, butthurt asukafagism that inevitably pops up whenever it's clear that the Asukafag has failed to defend their waifus "honor".

>Sure, but Rei regaining the power of Lilith was still always a part of that plan. She doesn't get credit for that part.
>but I'd say that she loses points too for immediately going to service the other Ikari. Given absolute power and freedom, Rei just picks a kinder master to serve instead. Which is certainly a choice, if one that shows a lack of imagination on her part.

All you want to do is to lessen Rei's acts here, by being misleading about the events that occured and the intentions behind them. Rei regaining Lilith power was never in SEELE's plan, Gendo would be the one in control. But Rei denied that, and took it for herself.

Moreover, you also fail to understand that at the same time this is happening, SEELE is starting their own instrumentality which Rei is racing to stop and intervene in. If stopping mankind from being goo forever isn't awarding any "credits" in a series that explicitly condemns it - you're too biased to have this discussion.

Haven't you considered the negative ramifications of your dishonest attacks on Rei and intentionally misleading recollection of Eva? Is it perhaps what you want, to defend your waifu? There's been quarrels for twenty years and it's owed to people like you.

also I'm not the person you responded to but, with this
>Did we ever get any indication that her books were anything other than school materials?
the subject matter is clear proof. It's far, far too advanced for anything less than bachelorates and Ph.D students.
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>>16866625
see >>16860615
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>>16866629
>Moreover, you also fail to understand that at the same time this is happening, SEELE is starting their own instrumentality which Rei is racing to stop and intervene in.

For someone so convinced that their version is the one true canon and not based on their own opinion at all, I would love to see anything to back that up in the source material.

> Haven't you considered the negative ramifications of your dishonest attacks on Rei and intentionally misleading recollection of Eva? Is it perhaps what you want, to defend your waifu? There's been quarrels for twenty years and it's owed to people like you.

And now you are just ranting, attacking and casting blame on everyone else in defense of your escapist fantasy.
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>>16866636

So literally a meme definition, then. Thats actually helpful to know.
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>>16866625
Simply look up the definition, no need to be cute.

It's not up for debate either. Here's the rundown:

- Rei's personality comes from herself, she's the one that defines herself before she lets herself be defined by others. Rei isn't a solipsist however, and she does acknowledge that she is also shaped by interactions with others and even time. Rei can be summed up with "I am myself", and no one can take that from her even if they wiped her memory or pressured her into believing otherwise. There isn't anyone who owns Rei's personality or will.

- Asuka's personality is founded on her identifying herself as an EVA pilot. It's not an assertion of herself as much as it is declaring dependency on a role - a role provided by a third party, NERV. Without this role, Asuka simply "ceases to exist", she shuts down mentally. NERV can at any point in time just shut her down, as if she had an off switch. Asuka's personality isn't just owned by NERV, it's also created by NERV through programming since she was a child. Asuka doesn't own her own personality.

Because of that, we can apply the often used phrase "Asuka doesn't have a personality". It's a phrase reserved for those who have no ownership to their own opinion.

I hope you've learned something today, and maybe you can also now better understand why Evangelion, with great irony, made Asuka a puppet.
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>>16866647
It is canon that both Gendo and SEELE are separately trying to start Instrumentality, but we have no idea how SEELE planned to do this or even if their idea of Instrumentality had anything to do with what actually occurs. In any case the Instrumentality that actually occurs is Rei's through and through.
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>>16866647
>And now you are just ranting, attacking and casting blame on everyone else in defense of your escapist fantasy.
You're projecting. If you think I'm attacking you, then know this: I'm entitled to. Why? Because you're being dishonest, uninformed and I can tell. If you didn't know because of ignorance or malice is at any rate unimportant, because if you didn't know - you shouldn't comment but listen instead.

Case in point, your request for "proof" for something completely self-evident in the film EoE:
>SEELE is starting their own instrumentality which Rei is racing to stop and intervene in.
>I would love to see anything to back that up in the source material.

I can prepare some screenshots for you, but in the meantime, here's for instance what the theatrical pamphlets say:
>This was also the trigger for starting the two Projects -- the Instrumentality Projects of SEELE and of Gendo.
>Gendo has brought Rei to Lilith to attempt the forbidden joining of Adam and Lilith. Two Instrumentality Projects being executed simultaneously in the heavens and in the bowels of the earth.

There were in fact two instrumentality projects going on. Gendo and SEELE are not on the same team and are racing to outdo each other. SEELE has a had start.
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>>16866673
On the contrary, my friend. We know exactly how SEELE planned this, because they narrate it for us in the actual movie! As I'll show >>16866647, you can also observe. I know where in the movie this is and I'm fetching screens.
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>>16866656

> Simply look up the definition, no need to be cute.

Okay then.

- the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

Cool. So Asuka's distinctive character comes from her combination childhood traumas and being taken in by Nerv, having a bunch of smoke blown up her ass about being the best, and her obsession with her own independence stemming from the same. These result in the characteristics such as her constant put downs and other forms of aggression and her childish insistence on being treated as an adult.

So she has a personality. Like, full stop. If you are arguing that she doesn't, you must have some alternate definition you are working from instead.
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>>16866689
Good, now read the rest of the post. Keep in mind that ignoring it just further points out your inability to be reasonable, and thus highlights the falseness of your "opinion".
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>>16851362
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>>16865862
>Misato
>pedophile
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>>16866686
>>16866677
>>16866673
>>16866647
and here you go, as promised.

From 00:04:45 in the film and onwards.
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>>16866729
>misato
>not a pedophile
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>>16866686
We don't know how Unit-01 and the MPEvas are supposed to do anything, nor do we know what their end goal was. That they even intended Shinji to be in control is unclear.

None of that changes the fact that the actual form Instrumentality ends up taking is one with Rei's fingerprints all over it. Why would they make everything associated with Instrumentality have Rei's appearance if she was trying to stop it?
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>>16866748
She's a pedophile not because she takes sexual pleasure in it, but because she thought it would cheer up Shinji after Asuka went catatonic and Rei was replaced by a seemingly emotionless clone.
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>>16866749
>We don't know how Unit-01 and the MPEvas are supposed to do anything, nor do we know what their end goal was
What?

>That they even intended Shinji to be in control is unclear.
What?

I could fetch more screenshots, but this is also narrated as they go. It's also narrated by e.g the Bridge Bunnies, whom through observing is able to confirm that what SEELE had planned was actually happening. Here's the quick rundown:

With the Lance of Longinus and EVA01 emerging, SEELE now has all the components. The MP-EVA's can react with the Lance of Longinus, and EVA01, a Lilith clone with an S^2 engine can now effectuate the entire instrumentality process.

Because Shinji has lost it and desires death, he will become the catalyst for the instrumentality taking final form. The bridge bunnies confirm.

>None of that changes the fact that the actual form Instrumentality ends up taking is one with Rei's fingerprints all over it. Why would they make everything associated with Instrumentality have Rei's appearance if she was trying to stop it?

Because Rei "assimilates" with the process, wresting enough control. By taking over the MP-EVA's, Rei naturally becomes the acting medium. I imagine it's like Rei taking a bullet for mankind, and Shinji. It's not exactly out of character for Rei to do that. Moreover, if Rei wasn't trying to stop it - why wouldn't she just let it continue?

Instead of asking these questions, why don't you just listen to what Rei says? During her various instrumentality chats with Shinji, she is telling him that he has done something bad, i.e fabricated his own reality as "revenge".
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>>16866749
>>16866787
and the second part.

Rei rejects Gendo's instrumentality, and then rushes to stop SEELE's. Only it's a little bit too late, as it's already begun. From this point on, Rei can only "force herself in" and attempt to speak reason with Shinji.
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>>16866752
She can tell that to the judge.
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>>16866787
Yes, they want Shinji to start Instrumentality, but we don't know if that was their plan from the start or if they just happened to start it while Shinji was in Unit-01.
>What?
Well how are they supposed to do anything, and is SEELE's goal what actually happens.
>Because Rei "assimilates" with the process, wresting enough control. By taking over the MP-EVA's, Rei naturally becomes the acting medium. I imagine it's like Rei taking a bullet for mankind, and Shinji. It's not exactly out of character for Rei to do that. Moreover, if Rei wasn't trying to stop it - why wouldn't she just let it continue?
If she was trying to stop it, why don't we see in her any way attempt to resist it happening? All she does is make comments after the fact that may or may not be against depending on how you interpret it, and that are then followed by comments against rejecting it, suggesting that at most she's trying to get him to make an informed decision.
>Only it's a little bit too late, as it's already begun.
If it's SEELE's Instrumentality that's begun, then why does everything associated with it look like Rei?
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>>16866810
She backed off after he said no, plus it’s not illegal if he never told
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>>16866846
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>>16866839
>Yes, they want Shinji to start Instrumentality, but we don't know if that was their plan from the start or if they just happened to start it while Shinji was in Unit-01.
>Well how are they supposed to do anything, and is SEELE's goal what actually happens.
>If it's SEELE's Instrumentality that's begun, then why does everything associated with it look like Rei?

We sort of know that too, it would seem they decided to strike while the iron was hot. They had everything they needed, they couldn't trust waiting because Gendo is still not dead and is a fucking schemer, so they went ahead. They sort of got everything served on a silver platter.

>If she was trying to stop it, why don't we see in her any way attempt to resist it happening?
The whole "assimilating the MP-series" is her way of doing it, she's gaining influence over it.

>make comments after the fact that may or may not be against
Eh I don't see how they could be construed to be for it. Consider this dialogue:
>Rei: So, you've only been able to find happiness in your dreams.
>Shinji: Then, this isn't reality. This world where no one exists.
>Rei: Right. It's a dream.
>Shinji: So I'm not here either.
>Rei: This convenient fabrication is your attempt at a revenge against reality.
>Shinji: Is it wrong?
>Rei: You escaped into imagination, and distorted the truth.
>Shinji: Is it wrong to have my own dream?
>Rei: That is not a dream. It would just be compensating for reality.

>Rei: Because the truth hurts everyone. It's awfully painful.
>Shinji: But ambiguity just makes me insecure.
>Rei: That's just an excuse.

The reason it looks like Rei is as earlier mentioned, Rei is trying to take control of it. She manages to assimilate and eventually end the MP-series, but EVA01 still remains.

Like this shot, where the Lance pierces the one thing that can actually destroy the MP-EVA's - the core.
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>>16866848
>>16866846
>She backed off after he said no, plus it’s not illegal if he never told
>>
>>16866909
>>16866846
>>16866848
all pedos must hang
>>
You are now imagining Misato making neighbour visits to explain that she's a registered pedophile
>>
Reading the latest messages, several questions came up:
1. How SEELE was going to achieve the third impact?, even though they have MP-eva and Eva-01 (both can be classified as the body of Adam and Lilith respectively), are not the souls of Adam and Lilith missing?

2. Why SEELE wanted to kill Shinji if they needed EVA01, or did they have a substitute pilot (a clone of Kaworu)?

3. Regardless of whether they needed a pilot or not, SEELE expected that Shinji direct the instrumentality?

4. What was the goal of SEELE? (as far as I know was going to return the land to Adam and the angels)
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>>16867261
>3. Regardless of whether they needed a pilot or not, SEELE expected that Shinji direct the instrumentality?
>>16866787 makes it pretty clear that SEELE wasn't planning on Shinji being in control.
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>>16867284
Then who would have the control?, the MP-evas?
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>>16865136
Gundam is more profitable but by a small margin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises
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>>16850104
Asuka always and forever. Rei is literally a monster.
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>>16867692
Your definition of a monster is strange. Asuka is more of a monster than Rei.
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>>16867261
1. Only the bodies of Adam and Lilith are necessary. These are the Eva's. The Eva's true purpose was to start third impact.

2. They didn't want to use Shinji at first. But when they got the chance, they decided he was suitable.

3. They weren't planning on it. They improvised.

4. To artificially evolve mankind. In SEELEs opinion, mankind has stagnated and wouldn't move on from their shattered state. They devised the Instrumentality project to artificially evolve mankind.
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>>16866858
>They sort of got everything served on a silver platter.
Considering their critical comments towards Gendo early in the series for using Shinji, I doubt using Shinji was their intent.
>The whole "assimilating the MP-series" is her way of doing it, she's gaining influence over it.
No evidence for that. Again, if she was meant to be trying to resist it, why did they have everything related to it when it actually happened look like Rei? And why don't we see anything in the sequence that suggests that she's trying to stop it, beyond your fanfiction?
>but EVA01 still remains.
But EVA01 does jack shit through the whole Instrumentality sequence. If it was meant to do something, don't you think we would have, you know, seen it do something?
>Like this shot, where the Lance pierces the one thing that can actually destroy the MP-EVA's - the core.
Followed immediately by Instrumentality speeding up. Considering the suicide undertones, this is not necessarily anti-Instrumentality.
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>>16864262
What the fuck would you know? You are a Westerner yourself.
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>>16867261

> 1. How SEELE was going to achieve the third impact?, even though they have MP-eva and Eva-01 (both can be classified as the body of Adam and Lilith respectively), are not the souls of Adam and Lilith missing?

Seele wanted to use Lilith to initiate Third Impact. Their original plan involved using the Lance to control her, but their backup plan was the MP Evas and a bunch of false lances instead.

Seele actually had the soul of Adam (in the form of Kowaru), and him dying and releasing that soul seemed necessary for their plans. they didn't move until he was dead.

All in all, the Third Impact we got was such a clusterfuck that its unlikely that what Shinji did was precisely what anyone else wanted going into it, so its impossible to say for certain what a 'pure' version of Seele or Gendo's plan would have looked like.

> 2. Why SEELE wanted to kill Shinji if they needed EVA01, or did they have a substitute pilot (a clone of Kaworu)?

Seele had functional dummy plugs, like what was controlling the MP Evas. Its entirely possible their goal was to capture and use Unit 01 themselves.

> 3. Regardless of whether they needed a pilot or not, SEELE expected that Shinji direct the instrumentality?

Doubtful. Seele never deals with Shinji directly, so they have no overt control over him. They seemed to think they were the ones in control of Third Impact to the very end, but unless they could LITERALLY see the future (which is obviously not the case) theres no way that works out.

I think they were trying to use Unit 01 as a tool without being aware of just how much power Shinji had over the outcome.
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>>16868374

> 4. What was the goal of SEELE? (as far as I know was going to return the land to Adam and the angels)

Seele thought mankind had maxed out its evolutionary potential. Basically that we were never going to be any better at what we do than we are now, and all that's left for us is degradation and extinction. Their plan was to ascend themselves and the rest of humanity to an immortal form that existed without a physical body (LCL sea counts) such that we would never have to worry about going extinct until the sun blew up.

Basically, Seele wants to quit while we are ahead and hit the pause button on the entire human race, preserving all of the minds and souls that exist now without any room for further growth or death.

Seele presumably wanted to be the ones in control of whatever this new form existence was, ruling over the non-physical dream realm as sort of gods. basically the role Shinji ended up with, where he got to decide the rules.

This is, of course, presuming that what we got from Shinji's wish is at all like the form of existence Seele was aiming for. Seele might have just wanted THEMSELVES to be ageless and immortal souls free of their bodies.

And no one knows for sure what Gendos plan would have looked like beyond the vaguely defined "get Yui back".
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>>16868380
>And no one knows for sure what Gendos plan would have looked like beyond the vaguely defined "get Yui back".
Well, it involved Instrumentality somehow. Also if you subscribe to the view that the TV ending is separate to EoE he seems to get what he wants in it.
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>>16868374
You're retarded. Just gonna ignore everything you wrote because of how biased it is written.

SEELE's de facto plan at the start of EoE is NOT to use Lilith, but EVA01.

They didn't plan on using Shinji, but they found him a suitable catalyst.
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>>16868623
>SEELE's de facto plan at the start of EoE is NOT to use Lilith, but EVA01.
>at the start of EoE
Well no shit that's their plan that late in their game, since it's their ONLY plan left. >>16866734 makes it pretty clear that -01 was not their first choice, but since the Lance fucked off during the series they had to alter the script.
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>>16868623
>>16868639
eh you're both arguing the same thing really. But regardless of the circumstances, SEELE's actual game-plan was to use EVA01 before the movie starts.
Sort of cheeky of them to just "drop in" despite having literally sent NERV an Angel, in retrospect.
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>>16868374
1. Could it be said that SEELE's plan was to send Kaworu to Lilith to create a third impact?, or was Kaworu looking for Adam? (He is surprised to see Lilith)

The soul of Kaworu was not taken in some way by Gendo?, if so, SEELE needs the souls of Lilith and Adam

In that you are right, but could not say that "the first phase" of an impact is necessarily to convert everyone to LCL (for the unfolded anticamp AT)?

3. It could be that SEELE was forced to let Shinji choose the fate of the instrumentality, because as Shinji was inside the eva01 (and obviously they did not want to destroy the eva, by not attacking him), let Shinji "decide", SEELE was competing against Gendo, they could not waste time
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>>16867777
Your definition of monster is strange given Rei is a giant alien that turned everyone to tang.





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