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I'm 15 years late and what the fuck is this shit?
>>
>>16971403
Everyone else stopped giving a fuck and let Morosawa whatever the hell she wanted.
Lacus rules over all, and all her enemies except Shinn commit sudoku so she may reign in peace.
>>
>>16971403
Yeah close to a hundred episodes and Gundam SEED still hasn't shown up, what the fuck.
>>
>people keep killing people which leads to people killing more people and thus and endless string of conflict
>ACKSHULLY conflict is a GOOD thing because it defines our individuality and we'll keep on fighting because it's the reasonable thing to do
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>
>>16971424
That reasoning would make sense if Kira and Lacus fucked off back to the orphanage at the end of Destiny, and kept Strike Freedom in the basement for the next time some maniac tried to start a war. But them taking over ZAFT, and just after Durandal had done all the hard work of neutralizing the EA, makes it sound like a thinly veiled justification for a last minute power grab.
>>
>>16971424
Kira's gundam is called FREEDOM for a reason.
he is the true believer in freedom as an american.
>>
I had a hard time believing someone as self righteous as Kira would just let them throw their lives out in a heated moment for no goddamn reason like that.
>>
>>16971464
>someone as self righteous as Kira
He isn't.
>>
>>16971521
No, he's not righteous. He's self righteous.
>>
>>16971412
>Lacus rules over all, and all her enemies except Shinn commit sudoku so she may reign in peace.
Reported you to the ZAFT gestapo
>>
>>16971438

That reasoning would make more sense if Lacus hadn't been offered power before and refused it to leave politics altogether.
>>
I unironically think Rey was a decent enough character.
>>
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>>16971700
He was until the very last end when the plot demanded him to betray his character to keep Jesus from dirtying his hands on screen.

Legend is definitely an underrated design. It's not bulky like Providence which is a minus, but the backpack is definitely better than the silly starfish of the original.
>>
>>16971700
>>16971705
Almost everyone on Team Durandal act like their characterizations were thrown in the bin just before they wrote the last third of the show.
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>>16971705

I like the Legend and how it's basically a step up in tech from the Providence in that it can be used by normal pilots as opposed to just Coordinators.

But i can never unsee the Optimus Prime face, including the colors, and end up always associating the Gundam with another franchise.
>>
>>16971735
Freedom has the right to all sentient beings.™
>>
>>16971731

That just seems to be how Murosawa writes, because Rau and a few others had a sudden shift in personality during the final stretch of SEED too. She can only really write characters in extremes. Or at least, she can only write prominent characters that way. So when it comes time for characters to show their hand or switch sides; it's just a really sudden about face on their part, rather than a gradual shift or anything. Fllay had the same thing happen. Secondary characters like Dearka who never had much focus can seem less jarring, because they were never as extreme in the first place.
>>
>>16971700
>>16971705
>>16971742
SEED ANT without Murosawa when?
>>
>>16971705
>>16971731
Not trying to defend Destiny's ending, but I can kinda understand Rey's point of view in that final duel and how Kira's words got into him and then Kira proceeds to shoot him with all his cannons. Now, even if he felt he had little time left, staying to die was bullshit. A redemption for having shot his father figure, perhaps? I find even weird that Kira or Athrun who was his teammate once didn't even tried to ask him to get out. Even worst is Talya, who decided to leave a son behind to die with the man she refused in the past.
>>
The thing is I don't mind Durandal being the villain. There are clues implying that his plan is not the ultimate problem solver he presents it as. The Destiny Plan operates on genetic data instead of personal desire. Durandal gives Shinn the Destiny, a speedy jack-of-all-trades MS best suited for hit and run tactics, based on Shinn's data, despite the fact Shinn has demonstrated that he's got a preference for close range combat with little care about defending his limbs since he can always get them replaced during combat - when the Destiny NEEDS to have it's limbs protected so it could use it's many weapons. Much like how Coordinators aren't born George Glenns and aren't 100% perfect design babies, there could be error on the Destiny Plan decision making process itself. The Destiny Plan could have been elaborated further to be a GULAG machine if you will.

The whole idea could have been decent if only more care was put into it's presentation. But as things turned out there was little to no explanation for things, and the opposite camp instead is just spouting moralist diatribe that goes in opposition with what they were saying in the previous series with no one there to point out the obvious. The writing is so fucking amateur one has to wonder how it even managed to pass.
>>
>>16971438
Considering the last time they fucked off back to the orphanage another psycho got to power and started firing the space lasers, so obviously it was not a winning strategy.
>>
>not a single good guy gets killed
>all the bad guys and people posing a threat to the good guys die by accidents or by getting killed by their fellow forces
The whole last third is blatant revisionist propaganda.
>>
>>16971542
He's really not. Kira is no more self righteous than any other gundam protagonist.
In fact, Shinn should be the posterboy for self righteousness since he regularly acts without or against orders to do what he personally believes is right and refuses to acknowledge that it was wrong in any way because someone will come along and give him a head pat for it.
>>
>>16971987
>>not a single good guy gets killed
Um, Durandal is dying right there in the OP pic
>>
>>16971743

I'm more of something ala Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin.
>>
>>16972107
He posed a political threat to Lacus.
>>
>>16971743
>>16972754
With Stargazer's visual style, no less.
>>
>>16971987
Was it ever confirmed if Djibril was Durandal's agent?
>>
>>16971439
>American

But anon. America was part of the EAF and therefore got wiped out with the rest of the naturals. Also Kira is a native of ORB.
>>
Sometimes I wonder if Durandal is Shuichi Ikeda's personally hated Gundam role in his legacy, or is it Full Frontal?
>>
>>16973051
Djibril was not Durandal's agent. It was some other guy in LOGOS who shows up in Destiny Astray. Although now that you mention it, it bums me out that LOGOS was just Blue Cosmos under a different name and not some conflict generating computer program like the patriots.
>>
>>16973073
Djibril himself was such a weird and lazy character. At least with Azrael we get insight that his hatred for Coordinators is due to him being bullied as a kid and growing up with a racist mother, Djibril literally has nothing going on for his character outside of being a stereotypical cat stroking villain.
>>
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Durandal was a cuck.
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>>16973152
Actually it's the other way.
He sleeps with Talia who is married to whoever and has a kid with that guy.
So Durandal is the cuckoo I guess.
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>>16973175
i hope he used a space condom
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>>16973231
>>16973175
>>16973152
Nah, this is one of the things I like about these characters. Gladys wanted to have children, Durandal did not, he had his plans and she got hers, so they parted ways, she had her child and the father was taking care of, so she got her job and hooked up with Durandal.

The thing about Durandal is that he likes/wants to hold power in everything in his life, and when Gladys left him the first time, he got all these plans to control every aspect of life itself, that is the destiny plan. In the end, when she cames back to him and die together, he is finally satisfied.

But for Gladys to left her kid to be motherless is kinda a dick move, but women lel.

I really wish I could read the novel versions of it, I guess they could explain more (or not, because the final episodes were a mess in the original run)
>>
The best thing about Destiny is that it killed any chances for CE ever taking over UC as the default Gundam timeline.
>>
>>16971782
I mean, we know how, which is that the scripts were being turned in so late by the end that there actually, literally was not enough time to do anything but just animate whatever script was given and fill in as much space as possible with stock footage.
>>
>>16973062

I wonder if people realize that celebrities may not share their biases.

>>16973267

Wasn't Durandal forced to separate from Talia because of a breeding program, with some other guy deemed a more suitable mate more likely to produce children with her and the Destiny Plan his response to that?
>>
>Kirafags hate it because they found Shinn annoying
>anti-Kirafags hate it because Shinn was cucked for more Kira
So, what was this show's demographic again?
>>
>>16975841
Fukuda and Morosawa
>>
>>16975841

Murosawa.

Also, teenagers who've never seen Gundam but enjoy melodrama. Mostly Murosawa herself though.
>>
>>16971422
The same thing happens IBO, when are we getting the Iron Blood Gundam?
>>
>>16973062
How could he hate being Full Frontal, aside from the dumb name?
>>
>Kira's expression of shock and horror once he hears that Rey is Rau, followed by pulling himself together after Rey's clarification that he's not _quite_ Rau but a clone just like him
>Kira still being unable to cope with his ideological loss to Rau
It's the little details.
>>
>>16976069
More like surprise from the notion that Rau somehow survived a beam saber through his whole body and a gamma ray burst.
>>
>>16973049
Or Fafner Exodus'
>>
>>16976088
In a show where people shrug off nuclear explosions, huge laser blasts to the face and laser swords to the cockpit like they're cheek slaps?
>>
And it started better than Seed at first.
Such a shame
>>
>>16976099
Nobody survives a nuclear explosion or cockpit impalement.
Mu surviving the strike explosion was extremely unusual and everyone was surprised when it happened.
So yes, it makes sense for Kira to be surprised.
>>
>>16976103
People say this, but I have to call bullshit. Destiny was showing a lot of signs of being bad right away, with its opening premise involving a shitload of reset buttons to retread basically the same conflict except now the EA's openly super racist from the start. It's one of the very few anime I dropped while it was airing.
>>
>>16976121
The villains stealing the Gundams instead of the MC who is now a competent soldier is definitely refreshing as far as beginnings are concerned.
>>
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>>16976116
OFF BY A FEW CM
F
F

B
Y

A

F
E
W

C
M
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>>16976099
There's place for only one Jesus in CE, and he definitely ain't wearin' no faggy mask.
>>
>>16976121
>Destiny was showing a lot of signs of being bad right away, with its opening premise involving a shitload of reset buttons to retread basically the same conflict except now the EA's openly super racist from the start.
It's the other way around.
Seed was so bad than Destiny had to do groundwork from the start, trying to work from "happily ever after" ending of Seed and Lacus faction doing what essentially amounts to "ascension to godhood" during the last part of the show.
Seed left no room for an actual sequel that couldn't cheapen (barely existing) value of the original story, so Destiny had to do what it could to work from that point.
It's also instantly noticeable how characterisation of every character is different. Mostly because it actually exists now in a comprehensive sense and they all have actual moral dilemmas grounded in established stuff they did on-screen. Having Seed kids properly face consequentness of their retarded actions could have been a big redeemer for the entirety of CE.
Instead we got >>16971403

Destiny managed to go back to the Seed's level of awfulness fairly fast, but first 10 episodes of the show on their own are as good as modern AU Gundam can get.
>>
>>16976160
>first 10 episodes of the show on their own are as good as modern AU Gundam can get
First three compilation movies. Shinn and Kira are reduced to major side-characters and Athrun is turned into the MC.

The fourth one couldn't salvage the utter clusterfuck that is the finale.
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>>16976143
The freedom's cockpit is in the chest not the waist
>>
>>
>>16971403
Something better enjoyed on DVD.
>>
>>16976353
no , the thing is that its nuclear reactor got stabbed , thats what everyone complains about it
>>
>>16976116
Athrun and Meyrin survived that Gouf exploding over the ocean. Athrun somehow shielded her from an explosion. Sting survived Chaos exploding. Andy survived his Lagowe exploding.
>>
>Watching Destiny for the first time without having watched SEED
>Something something idk what boring thing is going on
>The weird kids appear and steal the gundams
>"Oh, these must be the protags. They're going for a Wing team thing again."
>They power up
>"Wtf why did they change colour? Do they change based on the pilot? They're ugly. Where's the blue/white/red MC gundam?"
>Stuff happens, Alex and some tomboy enter a Zaku
"Cool, a Zaku. So thaaaat's where they keep the axe. Neat."
>Alex holds out against the gundams
>"Pffft, they can't beat a grunt. Nice prologued grunt fight though."
>The Impulse appears
>"Theeere's the RX-78 clone. He'll probably be tsundere for a few episodes and then join them like in Wing."
>Shinn screams at them
>"Yep. He sounds nuts like them."
>Attention keeps jumping between the fight and space
>"Wtf."
>The gundams escape into space THROUGH A HOLE
>"Wtf, they were in spess?!"
>The castlevania-looking president takes Alex and the bitchy girl, commandeers a warship and goes after the good guys
>Awesome ship combat!
>Tricks, tactics, hide behind the asteroid and then shoot it
>People call Alex(?) crazy
>The president orders the insufferable iron-hymen bitch of a captain to do it
>"Fuck yeah, Final Fusion approved! I don't know who is the bad guy anymore."
>Post battle
>Kagali goes nee nee nee nee this and that, and I'm a bitch and my yeast infection is acting up
>Shinn tells her, the ruler of another country on a diplomatic mission, to shut the motherfucking hell up and tears at her in front of the handsome President of the United States of Guts
>"Hell yeah, Shinn! Best MC ever!"

The first episodes of SEED Destiny were great. People like to bitch about Shinn taking a secondary role but if he hadn't then his already great character of having had enough of everyone's shit would had "developed" into a self-righteous armed pacifist.
>>
>>16977405

Why would you assume that the trio who only appear to infiltrate a base and then murder shit loads of people are protagonists? Why would you assume the named character who's had focus and is keeping up with a Gundam is a grunt?
>>
>>16977412
The beginning of the episode literally focuses on Shinn's family getting killed and he's the focus of the opening. You'd have to be retarded to not know who the main character is.
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>>16977307
Kira takes care of environment, gets lots of friends in the process. Shinn doesn't care for environment, loses friends as a result.
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>>16977307
>>16977427
Timeless.
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>>16977464
I still don't know if these were sincere or ironic
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>>16977355
It doesn't make a difference regardless since the audience is shown Kira flipping the magical reactor cutoff. It isn't an example of a character surviving against the odds. Zaft just saw an explosion underwater and assumed it was freedom.

>>16977358
There are about 5 examples of characters surviving incidents they shouldn't over the course of 2 wars, and that's including Sting which nobody else knew about.
Out of the hundreds if not thousands of people who were killed when their suits blow up less than half a dozen survive.
Surviving mobile suit destruction is exceedingly rare, even if many on the main cast have done it, so it would be straight retarded if everyone acted like Rau surviving was a regular or expected outcome.
>>
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>>16971782
I like how people call Zeon space Nazis when Durandals destiny plan was more to Nazi eugenics policy than anything Zeon did. If Durandal is a good guy then Gihren must be a saint.
>>
>>16977464
>DOG ONLY FEED ON SHAME
never fails to make me lol
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>>16978702
the "Z" faction are always the space nazis. Y'know, naZi, Zeon, Zaft, oZ....
>>
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>>16978762
>OZ
>Space
>>
>>16978702
Nah, Ghiren was all about Darwinistic Spacenoid superiority, similar to Aryan uber alles. If Gihren had access to eugenics programs, he'd abuse the shit out them. Rumor even has it that Glemy is a Gihren clone.
>>
>>16973062
The correct answer is Char Aznable, ver 0093. I recall an interview of him saying it wasn't his best portrayal Char since he couldn't get into his mindset.
>>
>>16978822

Gihren didn't give two fiddlers fucks about Spacenoid superiority; all he cared about was personal power. He wanted to kill large amounts of people so the remainder would be easier to manage and he wasn't concerned about whether the remainder was Spacenoid, Earthnoid, Jovian, Dolphin or Skeleton so long as he was wearing the crown afterwards.
>>
>>16973231
>CoordiCHADS getting STDs
Wat
>>
>>16980323
being immune don't mean you still got the little fuckers using you as a carrier
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>>16976143
I'm pretty sure that nobody expected Kira to get killed here. But at the same time, you can't just write a scene like this and then handwave it away with a simple explanation like "oh, he turned off the reactor as soon as he was run through"

Okay, that's great, but then how did he survive the explosion? Impulse had it's VPS on, and it was totaled. Freedom Gundam should have been completely vaporized.

It's like when Strike fought against Aegis for the last time. Oh, there's an exciting conclusion...but how did Kira survive? Oh, he just wakes up on a colony someplace, and you have to read the sidestory manga to find out!
>>
>>16971403
Don't know what the f*ck it is but judging the picture it looks like moody group drinking nights projected onto a sci-fi setting.
>>
>>16980582
It's because freedom's phase shift is superior thanks to the nuclear power. The big limitation behind phase shift has always been power source/energy, which freedom has plenty of.
>>
>>16980582
>Freedom Gundam should have been completely vaporized
In the very next scene you see Freedom it is in bits and pieces. The chest section is the biggest and presumably densest part. It is pretty much the only intact piece left which also is where the cockpit is located.
>>
>>16980590
impulse didn't lose phase shift power until after the explosion dissipated

you even hear the PS armor sound effect go off after the explosion already ended

>>16980590
>The big limitation behind phase shift has always been power source/energy, which freedom has plenty of.
yep, genesis was literally immune to beam cannons and even antimatter cannons simply because it had ridiculously strong PS armor
>>
>>16980562
Why would a CoordiCHAD sleep with genetrash?
>>
>>16980683
same reason anyone anywhere would choose to sleep with inferior races

you didn't actually think every time superior races invaded the lands of inferior people they would always refuse to fuck the conquered lands' women, did you?
>>
>>16980691
No, but given that Coordies are pretty isolated, it kinda makes sense to me that they may not cross pollinate so much.

The further question would be why they would care about infecting genetrash in the first place.
>>
>>16980693
>No, but given that Coordies are pretty isolated, it kinda makes sense to me that they may not cross pollinate so much.
In that case you are probably asking "how do they get to fucking naturals" rather than "why would they choose to fuck naturals" if it's a matter of isolation rather than choice.

>The further question would be why they would care about infecting genetrash in the first place.
Uh, what? If they did care then they would use protection. It's probably because they -don't- care in the first place, which means they will just fuck without protection. Americans sure didn't give a fuck about protection when stationed overseas and fucking the Japanese and Europeans in the post-WWII era, it got so bad that there was an epidemic of sexually transmitted infections among prostitutes and enlisted men, and this was when condoms and talk about sexual protection were supposedly already common for most if not all troops in WWII.
>>
>>16971403
What was the ending about again? I only remembered FLAWLESS VICTORY.
>>
>>16980735
Good guys win.
Bad guys lose.
>>
>>16980582
Aegis vs Strike is the biggest bullshit because the cockpit was TORN. Kira had no protection at all.
Loewe might have ditched him out but that doesn't explain how he survived the initial explosion.
>>
The sign of a quality work is when it still stirs discussion 15 years after it ended.
>>
>>16973092
Essentially. It was kind of telling early on that they were fresh out of ideas when it became apparent the earth alliance were all screaming lunatics after the break the world incident.
>>
>>16980323
>sterile due to test tube babby
>CHAD

wew lad
>>
>>16973544
I reckon there's more chance of a SEED movie (or some sort of continuation of CE in general) now that Morosawa is dead. Destiny ends in a way that conflict (and thus a story) is impossible until Lacus fucks up, or aliens arrive, and 00 already did that.

>>16973551
The hilarious thing is that, to this day, Destiny is still one of the most EXPENSIVE anime ever made, on a cost per episode basis.
>>
>>16980756
Ah yes, the early part of Destiny, when both Dijion Mustard and Yuna Roma actually appeared competent.

>>16980582
>>16980740
It's actually pretty consistent for Fukuda to just not give a fuck about technical details, as long as the story moves in the direction he wants.

>>16975841
I don't dislike Destiny Kira, but even I hate how Shinn gets shoved aside.

There was so much fucking potential in Destiny, and it was all squandered for Kira/Lacus-wank.
>>
>>16971743
> SEED ANT without Morosawa when?
Morosawa is dead for good, anon.
oh wait, don't think Fukuda would do anything about CE timeline anymore.
>>
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>>16971439
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>>16980740
Astray manga invented a inner blast shield door that conveniently activated and covered the Strike's cockpit just before the Aegis blew up. Doesn't quite explain the cockpit seat being melted, though. Or maybe the inside of the cockpit caught fire after Kira was rescued from the cockpit. I dunno. But it was also raining when Lowe found Kira.
>>
>>16981324
It's a wonder why that particular shot wasn't edited out in new revisions like the infamous Mwu helmet.
>>
>>16977663
Turning off a nuclear reactor won't prevent a nuclear fallout when it's containment unit is penetrated by a foreign element,aka the AS-Sword.
>>
>>16981324
Astray isnt canon.
>>
>>16981430
Doesn't really stop them, now does it?

>>16981427
It does when the N-jammers guarantee that there is no more radioactivity due to no more neutron activation. That's why they're called "N" -jammers, after all.
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>>16983548
Best couple.
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>>16972105
Shinn is not in any way self-righteous. He has to deal with a lot of crap on his plate starting with Kira killing his family (not going to go with that revisionist SE clip that changed the Freedom's laser beam spam direction). It was further aggravated with them getting trapped just after they got out of the Orb Union. I could understand Shinn's berserk rage emo fests because clearly, not only does he have to worry about himself, but everyone on the Minerva are also counting on him too. Athrun became a pussy. I was expecting Athrun to become a battle-hardened war veteran to slap Shinn back to sanity but no, like him and Cagalli, they were victims of Morosawa's lul writing where they regressed far worse than their initial portrayals in SEED. Shinn was even hijacked out of his own show.

Kira on the other hand already have everything handed to him on a silver plate. The way he shoots down people who do not agree with his side or Lacus' are very much a self-righteous act. I did not see Shinn going around shooting people for not agreeing with him. Kira does. Whatever he and the Archangel did - they only caused more chaos than actual peace. Berlin was an extreme example.
>>
>>16972105
Shinn never did anything wrong. He didn't even go against orders until what, that battle where he freed those slaves? Athrun slapping him over that was bullshit and Athrun is a hypocrite. Athrun is the last person who should have a mentor role. He switches sides more than any other Gundam character. Who the fuck would listen to anything he has to say? Fucking Char was a better mentor than him and actually facilitated Kamille's development.
>>
>>16984736
>>16984756
Kira would've been a better mentor than Athrun, even in his early Destiny PTSD-addled state.
In fact, I'm struggling to think of any veteran pilot, ZAFT or otherwise, who's still alive at the start of Destiny, who would've been worse than Athrun.
Yzak in particular could've been goddamn brilliant. He wouldn't tolerate Shinn's bullshit, but would completely understand his emotional state and reasoning.
>>
>>16976160
>as good as modern AU Gundam can get.
You mean better than the vast majority of UC Gundam especially the ones directed by Tomino/
>>
>>16972105
>Shinn
>Self righteous
Only with the people at the gate and with Stella.
And Stella was mostly little sister PTSD
>>
>>16984736
>He has to deal with a lot of crap on his plate
>Kira on the other hand already have everything handed to him on a silver plate
None of that has anything to do with self righteousness and it describes both characters.

>I did not see Shinn going around shooting people for not agreeing with him
Literally every sortie Shinn goes on involves him shooting at people who oppose him. After Heaven's Base he isn't even acting under orders anymore and every battle he joins is of his own accord.
Athrun even describes Shinn exactly like that when he talks to him at Mahamul
"Are you trying to say that you're the only person who's right, and that you won't accept anyone you don't like or agree with?"

>>16984756
Besides disobeying orders to attack the hidden base he also disobeyed orders throughout that battle in order to chase Neo around, initially refused to accept the mission from Athrun for the flank attack because his feelings were hurt, attacked Cagalli as she was trying to order the Orb fleet not to attack and took Stella to the EA. Plus Luna says that Shinn has always been like that since the academy, never listening to superiors.
>>
>>16984872
>"Are you trying to say that you're the only person who's right, and that you won't accept anyone you don't like or agree with?"
That's rich coming from a guy who pilots a suit called Infinite Justice and switches sides all the time.
>>
>>16984872
>Literally every sortie Shinn goes on involves him shooting at people who oppose him
You say that like Shinn's supposed to balance things out by occasionally shooting at people he agrees with.
>>
When willl we see gundam seed season 3: return of the spacewhales?
>>
>>16984827
Yzak would have been perfect. He went through some shit and learned humility when Durandal didn't have him executed. He fucked up in the past and tried to make up for it. Especially with Dearka there to play the easy going guy Shinn can talk to.
>After Heaven's Base he isn't even acting under orders anymore and every battle he joins is of his own accord.
Sounds like Athrun when he saved Kira from the Druggies or Athrun in general not following orders to join the Archangel.
>"Are you trying to say that you're the only person who's right, and that you won't accept anyone you don't like or agree with?"
Shinn! You're supposed to follow orders!
Shinn! Stop following orders and think for yourself!
>, initially refused to accept the mission from Athrun for the flank attack because his feelings were hurt,
But he ended up accepting it.
>attacked Cagalli as she was trying to order the Orb fleet not to attack
Cagalli deserves to be attacked for being incompetent. You can't fly into a battlefield and expect conflicting sides to stop doing everything to listen to what you have to say. He wasn't even ordered not to attack her.
>and took Stella to the EA
A fuck up caused by being emotional. Athrun and Kira have done similar things though.
>Plus Luna says that Shinn has always been like that since the academy, never listening to superiors.
And that's not going to change if he doesn't have a strong role model to follow which Athrun is not. Amuro and Kamille start off the same way and get brought in line by role models. Kira was the same way as well but got brought in line.
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>>16984872

> None of that has anything to do with self righteousness and it describes both characters.

You just blindly ignored the part where Shinn didn't shoot people down because they didn't agree with him VS Kira shot everyone down who didn't agree with him. Nice.

> Literally every sortie Shinn goes on involves him shooting at people who oppose him

Yeah well they were trying to shoot him down. That's drastically different from pew pewing everyone because Kira thinks he just can, and that his sense of self-righteousness absolutely makes him immune to any kind of repercussion whatever. I think Lacus even demonstrated that quite blatantly during the Destiny Plan reveal. Everyone who believes differently than what she and Kira did are evil and must be stopped. No effing gray areas whatsoever.

> Besides disobeying orders to attack the hidden base he also disobeyed orders [SNIP]

Athrun and Kira did it, why can't Shinn?

> Attacked Cagalli as she was trying to order the Orb fleet not to attack

Cagalli deserved getting that because she became a spineless character and just tried following Orb Union ideals at the cost of everything the Orb Union is supposed to have stood for.

> Took Stella to the EA

I forgot if Shinn knew or he probably not, that Stella will die without her drugs. It was an emotional thing to do but it was also kind of "humane" if the drug dependency angle was there. I mean, Stella basically can't function properly at all without them.

Then we also have Kira, who took Lacus back to ZAFT.
>>
>>16985277

> she became a spineless character and just tried following Orb Union ideals at the cost of [all of] the Orb Union's [ideals].

Huh?
>>
>>16985277
>Kira shot everyone down who didn't agree with him
>pew pewing everyone because Kira thinks he just can
Name a single time Kira goes to battle just because he can.
Kira's motivation throughout seed and destiny has always been the protection of his friends.
The closest would be the Orb interventions because he was just fulfilling Cagalli's request for those.

>Everyone who believes differently than what she and Kira did are evil and must be stopped
That's not what happened at all.

>Cagalli deserved getting that
Shinn literally turned the only force that was saving the Minerva against them. In fact, Athrun really saves the day there by checking Kira throughout the fight which allows Shinn to unfuck the situation he created.
Attacking a neutral party that just protected your party when you are heavily out numbered and disadvantages just because you personally don't like a member is childishly shortsighted.

>Athrun and Kira did it, why can't Shinn?
>It was an emotional thing to do but it was also kind of "humane"
>Then we also have Kira, who took Lacus back to ZAFT.
Shinn is a soldier, Kira never was. Athrun's big problem with Shinn is that he never acts like a soldier and does whatever he wants absolutely refusing to see what he does as wrong in any way.
Kira and the AA do what they think is right but repeatedly come to question what the right thing to do is.
Shinn refusal to acknowledge anything he does as wrong on the grounds of moral justification is the definition of self righteousness.
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>>16985433
>Kira and the AA do what they think is right but repeatedly come to question what the right thing to do is.
Bullshit.
>>
>>16985471
Until the Destiny Plan is discovered Kira repeatedly refuses to act and insists they understand what's going on before they make any moves.
Cagalli explicitly asks if they did the right thing after the first intervention.
When talking to Athrun on the moon about fighting Durandal he remarks that they might just be acting selfish and are in a situation they shouldn't be fighting in but have no choice but to fight.
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>>16985471
After he wakes up in the garden, has a cry then joins up with Lacus, does Kira have a single moment of introspection or self-doubt?
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>>16985559
Asking if you're doing the right thing and then immediately going "yep!" isn't truly questioning what you're doing. Shinn has moments like that all the time. Especially when it came to fighting Athrun. The Archangel crew are shown just sitting at the bottom of the ocean doing nothing. Not gathering intel or anything to see what exactly is going on in the outside world. Kira was the one who usually got Cagalli off her ass to interfere in battles. That Lacus and Cagalli conversation was literally Cagalli getting like 1 line of dialog and then it's brushed off.
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>>16985598
>Asking if you're doing the right thing and immediately going "yep!"
Lacus did not tell Cagalli she was doing the right thing, she tells Cagalli that she needs to follow through with a decision in order to actually accomplish anything. Nowhere does she say that decision was right or wrong.

>Not gathering intel or anything to see what exactly is going on in the outside world
Part of the reason Kira agrees to meet Athrun was they though he had information about what's going on in the plants, and Lacus leaves to personally lead the intel search after they get basically nothing from Athrun.

>Kira was the one who usually got Cagalli off her ass to interfere in battles
Cagalli explicitly asks Kira to stop the Orb fleet. He had no intention of doing so.
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>>16985621
>Lacus did not tell Cagalli she was doing the right thing
I was talking about Kira and Athrun.
>she tells Cagalli that she needs to follow through with a decision in order to actually accomplish anything. Nowhere does she say that decision was right or wrong.
But it was dropped and not brought up again.
>Part of the reason Kira agrees to meet Athrun was they though he had information about what's going on in the plants, and Lacus leaves to personally lead the intel search after they get basically nothing from Athrun.
They didn't even know Athrun was back in ZAFT and he was the one who contacted them. They weren't proactive and Kira already had a stance against Durandal.
>Cagalli explicitly asks Kira to stop the Orb fleet.
Episode 27 has Kira telling the Archangel to interfere in the battle.
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>>16985636
>Kira and Athrun
As they themselves say, they don't have a choice left in the matter. Due to the scenario they can either die alongside everything they care for or fight against someone who could have been a savior to the world.
The fact that they even bother to question this is notable, since they have no need to justify self defense.
Just because they go through with the plan doesn't mean it was the right thing or they thought it was the right thing, it just means they wanted one outcome over another. Durandal turns into a disney villain and inadvertently justifies anything done against him, but that's besides the point.

>Kira already had a stance against Durandal
Based on what he knew, which was logical and reasonable. And he wasn't on a crusade against him, he just doubted Durandal was telling the truth.

>Episode 27 has Kira telling the Archangel to interfere in the battle
Which is a continuation of Cagalli's request to stop the Orb fleet.
Based on the flashbacks right before that, Cagalli was concerned that what Athrun said was true and she was wasting her time with the interventions when she should have been back at Orb. By all indications she still wanted the fleet stopped but was reconsidering her methods. By that point it was too late for any other option, which is why Kira proceeds to attempt to physically stop the battle.
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>>16985566

He does a couple times, but he always decides to not change his methods and keep shooting everyone.
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>>16985331

What is the Orb Union supposed to be about?

It's a neutral nation, should not get involved in a war, blah blah blah.

What happened in SEED?

Athha destroyed the entire island just to make sure that their dignity is preserved somehow, along with the fact that it kept the enemy from using its assets.

I think even Cagalli at one point in SEED has become quite agitated as to why even Orb was helping the EA produce the Gundams when it's specifically something that runs against their neutrality policy. And there it goes again in the first episode of SEED Destiny, with Cagalli discussing the same thing about the use of Orb's military technology by the PLANTs with Dullindal.

It's the same chaos that made Shinn lose his family, because that was what Orb was supposed to be about right? Giving Coordinators a safe place from being harassed and murdered left and right by Natural extremists? No conflicts, they're a neutral territory. But nope, Orb ideals/politics/whatsoever >>>> its citizens.
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>>16985433

> Name a single time Kira goes to battle just because he can.

SEED Destiny episode 13 onwards.

> Everyone who believes differently than what she and Kira did are evil and must be stopped
> That's not what happened at all.

The hell you going on about, that's the whole reason why the TSA was up and about again in the last episodes of SEED Destiny...

> Shinn is a soldier, Kira never was. Athrun's big problem with Shinn is that he never acts like a soldier and does whatever he wants absolutely refusing to see what he does as wrong in any way.

Ohh you're going to use that excuse? Come on, before they even were allowed to board the Archangel Kira was hastily made a Private or something, all of his other friends were. A civilian would never be allowed to go around that ship, lest pilot a top secret Gundam. He gave Lacus back to the enemy, and he only got a slap on the wrist for it.

> Kira and the AA do what they think is right but repeatedly come to question what the right thing to do is.

Complete and utter bullshit. Instead of trying to solve these through other means, they just enter any battle while being utter hypocrites.

>>16985767

> The fact that they even bother to question this is notable, since they have no need to justify self defense.

I don't recall anything that Kira even questioned himself if what they were doing is right. He simply went off with his gut feeling ever since Lacus was targeted by those assassins that Dullindal supposedly sent after her. At that point, Kira and Lacus have already decided that Dullindal is evil.

> Based on what he knew, which was logical and reasonable. And he wasn't on a crusade against him, he just doubted Durandal was telling the truth.

Kira didn't know anything except that somehow Dullindal isn't supposed to be trusted. Gut feelings. Seriously?? The moment bouncy Not!Lacus appeared Dullindal became more evil. Then by the time Destiny Plan was unveiled, super duper triple evil.
>>
>>16987103
Well they were kinda fucked anyway, nothing was going to stop the EA from invading Orb because EA wanted the mass driver. Didn't matter if Orb helped EA develop MS or not at that point. Maybe if Orb blew up the mass driver before the Alliance moved in then that could discourage EA enough to not invade if there wasn't enough for them to gain back for the trouble of invading Orb.
>>
>>16987162

It didn't stop them from trying to invade Orb again in Destiny. Though it's for a completely different reason this time because lul Seiran shenanigans. But somehow Uzumi managed to create a completely haxxor suit for his adopted daughter (???). At any rate, Orb itself is a clusterfuck of paradoxical bullshit. I can totally see why Shinn went emo rage at Cagalli.
>>
>>16987134
>SEED Destiny episode 13 onwards
assassins, protecting Lacus
wedding, protecting Cagalli
Dardanelles, Cagalli's request
spaceport, protecting Lacus
Crete, Cagalli's request
Berlin, personal beliefs
angel down, protecting the AA
Eternal, protecting Lacus
Orb, protecting Cagalli and Orb
campaign against Durandal, protecting Orb

Berlin is the only battle that isn't defense of his friends or homeland.

>that's the whole reason why the TSA was up and about again
Lacus states that she believes Durandal will target Orb after LOGOS/EA falls because it will impede his plans. That is the whole reason they go into space to oppose Durandal. He then lasers the moon and treats his plan as an ultimatum necessitating the TSA to stop him or die.

>Kira was hastily made a Private or something
That was a list of times Shinn acted without orders or disobeyed orders.
Kira did not choose to enlist/commission, did not go through training, is not familiar with customs and courtesies. He is a civilian wearing a military uniform.
Shinn did join the military, went though training, graduated from a military academy. Shinn has no excuse for his conduct.

>Instead of trying to solve these through other means they just enter any battle while being utter hypocrites
Kira shooting everything was not the plan, it was the result of Cagalli's plan failing due to Yuna's presence.

>At that point, Kira and Lacus have already decided that Dullindal is evil.
They thought ZAFT might be involved since the assassins were coordies with brand new suits. They thought Durandal has an incentive to kill off Lacus after seeing a fake Lacus. Putting two and two together makes Durandal untrustworthy in their eyes.
It's not like he condemned Durandal or anything.
I fail to see how this is illogical in any way.

>He simply went off with his gut feeling
>Gut feelings
Kira is literally the character that tells the reset of the AA not to go with their gut and figure out what's actually going on.
>>
>>16987333
>Kira did not choose to enlist/commission
He did choose, when his friends volunteered as well he was more open to the idea of being a pilot and when they said they'd stay even though they reached the safe point and they could leave, he joined. Not to mention just because you;re a volunteer in the army doesn't mean your not a soldier especially if what your volunteering for is exactly what soldiers do.
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>>16985767
>As they themselves say, they don't have a choice left in the matter.
Because Kira kept doing stupid things all series and had zero counters to Athrun's arguments when they met up in 24-25. The show had to twist ZAFT into being evil in order to make Kira seem right and even then Fukuda said that Kira and Lacus strayed from the path of justice while saying Shinn was doing things for the right reasons. Athrun destroyed all of Kira's points in those episodes and all Kira could do was bring up Meer. All Athrun had to do was counter that crap by saying that if Lacus hadn't run away, Meer wouldn't be needed. Lacus for some strange reason has a huge amount of influence over the PLANTS and a single appearance from Meer was all it took to calm the people down.
>Based on what he knew, which was logical and reasonable. And he wasn't on a crusade against him, he just doubted Durandal was telling the truth.
What did he know? Everything he said Athrun destroyed.
>Which is a continuation of Cagalli's request to stop the Orb fleet.
That doesn't matter. Cagalli wasn't sure of doing that anymore and Kira pushed her into it.

>>16987333
The wedding wasn't to protect Cagalli. She wasn't in any danger.
Doesn't matter if it's Cagalli's request. It was stupid.
Crete was not Cagalli's request. Kira decided that when Cagalli was unsure.

Protecting your friends is self righteous in of itself, especially when it comes to shooting up other people who aren't attacking you or them.
>Kira did not choose to enlist/commission, did not go through training, is not familiar with customs and courtesies. He is a civilian wearing a military uniform.
Kira is still a soldier using military hardware. It doesn't matter if he doesn't know regulations. The moment he decided to pilot the Strike of his own accord and stay on the Archangel he was going to be treated the same as any other soldier. The only reason he wasn't killed for taking Lacus back was because Mwu and Murrue are soft.
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>>16987333

> Protecting blah blah blah

I think you have misinterpreted Kira protecting anything at all. It was basically just Dullindal supposedly having a hand in any of those things you mentioned why he is being trigger happy on anyone/anything that didn't fit his own definition of peace and justice. Lol Angel Down was a result of their interference in Berlin.

Basically, Kira's involvement of his pew pew policy for Lacus-sama brought him in all that unnecessary self-righteousness disguised thinly as a reason to "protect" his friends.

> Lacus states that she believes Durandal will target Orb after LOGOS/EA falls because it will impede his plans. That is the whole reason they go into space to oppose Durandal. He then lasers the moon and treats his plan as an ultimatum necessitating the TSA to stop him or die.

Yeah nahh, it was just 10 episodes left for Destiny, they had to make Dullindal evil somehow.

> They thought ZAFT might be involved since the assassins were coordies with brand new suits. They thought Durandal has an incentive to kill off Lacus after seeing a fake Lacus. Putting two and two together makes Durandal untrustworthy in their eyes.

Right. Astray even made it quite vague who the mastermind behind that was, but definitely it wasn't Dullindal. They just assumed everything because Meer and Destiny Plan goes against their belief system.
>>
>Minerva gets ambushed by Orb and EA
>They defend themselves and fight back
>Kira attacks them when they start winning
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>>16971403
>It's been 15 years
Holy macaroni
>>
>>16971743
It's about as likely as getting a seed retelling with Morosawa.
>>
>>16987357
You're missing the point. I'm not saying he wasn't officially a member of the EA. I'm saying he has no military training, he does not have the military mindset, he is not indoctrinated. He's a civilian at heart as opposed to Shinn who was an academy graduate.

>>16987469
>zero counters to Athrun's arguments when they met up in 24-25
Athrun just bitches at Cagalli and tells to she should just go fix Orb's problems, completely ignorant that she is unable to.
Athrun then says PLANTS are going to make the world a better place because Durandal is a good guy. Kira disagrees because of the circumstances around the Lacus/Meer events make him unwilling to trust Durandal without proof he wasn't involved.
Athruns only counter is to claim Kira is jumping to conclusions by suspecting Durandal's involvement, which is not a leap in logic at all.

>All Athrun had to do was counter that crap by saying that if Lacus hadn't run away, Meer wouldn't be needed
You assume Lacus would support Durandal.

>Cagalli wasn't sure of doing that anymore
No, she wasn't sure her method was correct. She still wanted the fleet to turn back.

>She wasn't in any danger
Not physical danger, but political. Kira states he did it because she was about to do something stupid.

>Protecting your friends is self righteous in of itself
No, it has nothing to do with self righteousness.
>especially when it comes to shooting up other people who aren't attacking you or them
Every battle except the wedding and Durandal ones involved the party Kira was protecting being under fire. The Durandal campaign involved the threat of space lasering Orb, which is an imminent threat.

>The only reason he wasn't killed for taking Lacus back was because Mwu and Murrue are soft
Murrue explicitly states he is a civilian at that time. He and the others are retroactively made soldiers upon meeting the 8th fleet, but that is besides the point as stated above.
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>>16987669
>It was basically just Dullindal supposedly having a hand in any of those things you mentioned why he is being trigger happy on anyone/anything that didn't fit his own definition of peace and justice
That is not supported by anything.
The only time the AA actively went after Durandal was post Destiny Plan. For everything during the war ZAFT and their leader was incidental.

>it was just 10 episodes left for Destiny, they had to make Dullindal evil somehow
Doesn't change the fact that these events happened.

>They just assumed everything because Meer and Destiny Plan goes against their belief system
They suspected Durandal because he is the most likely candidate, which is perfectly logical. The destiny plan is a whole different matter which they oppose because it would involve Orb's destruction in order to implement.





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