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Let's have a thread about the best bus: The trolleybus.

Jokes aside, I was recently thinking how come in the 50's-60's so many cities around the world suddenly got trolleybuses, but then they died out again all of a sudden. Why was that? Why were trolleybuses so popular only for such a very short time?

Are trolleybuses still a good transit option? Are battery buses superior? Or is it actually advantageous to have electric buses that don't depend on batteries?

Talk about new trolleybus systems or extensions of existing systems. Which cities still have trolleybuses, and which cities still care for them instead of letting them slowly die out?
Also talk about past systems.


Pic related is the first trolleybus that ran in Shanghai, which has the oldest continually operating trolleybus system in the world. It started operations in 1917, and is now 101 years old, the only trolleybus system in the world that's a century old.
>>
The UK had trolleybuses come into service around the 1910s-1920s and then dismantled them in the 1950s-1970s. The last trolleybus system in the UK was the Bradford Trolleybus, and that was dismantled in 1974.
Pic related was the old Belfast Trolleybus which was dismantled in 1968.

The thing which occured in the UK, was that people starting thinking that trams and trolleybuses were obsolete. Internal compustion engine busses were superior, could go anywhere, and the thought was that busses would replace all public transport, creating one single means of public transport, which was cheaper, could to to any road in the UK, and would be the best since it could be scaled.
Central Europe on the other hand didn't do that, and many cities in Central Europe still maintain trolleybus networks. It's only been in the last 10-20 years that UK cities have brought trams back, but no one wants to build new trolleybus infrastructure.
>>
>Why were trolleybuses so popular only for such a very short time?
In my reading about historic Australian tram systems like Brisbane's, it seems to be that the trolleybuses were a replacement for trams and a step towards buses. Before some of the lines were closed they were converted to trolleybus operation. The conversion must have had something to do with not wanting to take down the overhead power but wanting to move towards a bus-only system (Brisbane in particular has a massive fetish for buses and their mayor really wanted to get rid of the trams). In any ex-tram and ex-trolleybus city, at some point, it was probably decided to commit fully to diesel buses and that further maintaining the power infrastructure wasn't worth it any more. The only place I know of in Australasia that held onto the trolleybuses for a longer period was Wellington, where they were removed last year.
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>>1210645
>Wellington
NEVER FORGET
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>>1210629
I know for a fact that the 71, 72, 73, 77, in Cambridge and the Silver 1, Silver 2, and Silver 3 between South Station Under and Silver Line Way in Boston are the MBTA's running trolleybus routes. Pretty sure SEPTA has at least one route running, but I can't be fucked to look up the route number.
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>>1210769
What's MBTA's or the city's viewpoint on those lines? Many trolleybus systems nowadays are thinking of abandoning trolley service, often citing the battery bus meme as an excuse.
>>
Local bus company tried trolleybus last decade but they concluded the operational cost would be higher than diesel bus so abandoned the idea
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>>1210824
Don't know, but I know they're not going anywhere anytime soon regardless of their view on them
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How much trolley is this?
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>>1211051
Not much more than this
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>>1211051
on a scale from 1 to 10 I'd say homosexual
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>>1210769
It's curious how many transit parallels there are between MBTA and SEPTA
>both have subway-surface streetcars which are colored green in both cases
>both have just a handful of trolleybus lines
>both have one line operating PCC streetcars in non-heritage service
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>>1211051
Not really a trolleybus, but a neat concept. You don't have to blow that much money into batteries or wires, but still get the advantages of all-electric busses.
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>>1211066
>all the disadvantages of trolleybuses (fixed loading stations, cost of infrastructure, somewhat fixed route layout)
>all the disadvantages of battery buses (weight, limited range, expensive)
meme/10
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>>1211062
>both operate all 5 terrestrial forms of mass transportation (commuter/regional rail, heavy and light rail rapid transit, buses, and trolleybuses)
>both have an east-west rapid transit line colored blue and a north-south line colored orange
>said subway-surface streetcars run east to west, and split into several branches in the west
>commuter rail networks originated from 2 major freight railroads (Boston & Maine and Penn Central, Penn Central and Reading)
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>>1210629
1. Trolleybus combine all cons of bus and tram. (High rolling resistance of bus and tram's attachment to rails and powerline)
2. But it is cheaper to maintain than tram or bus in long run, since it doesn't have an engine and transmission that needs to be rebuilt every 10 years or so. You can still find 1950's trolleybuses in Valparaiso, Chile, that are still operational. Or 1970's (that are pretty similar to Chilean ones electrically) soviet units in Russia, Ukraine.
3. If infrastructure is build wrong/cheap trolley can't be as fast as tram or bus, since you literally have to drive thought such junctions 3-5 km/h, otherwise you risk slipping poles from wire.
The actual problem of trolleybus is just that it is tethered to power line, and proper power line costs money.
Battery powered units will not last long and they are more expensive than buses (even considering that electricity might be cheaper than natural gas or diesel).

Considering that EU tries to get rid of ICEs, trolleybuses might become a thing again, since they don't have costly poisonous batteries, run on electricity (that is over-generated now, considering everyone had changed sucking vacuum cleaners to 800W noise makers and heat lamps to cold LEDs and CFLs)
Lower weight of trolleybus also improves power consumption and tire wear.
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>>1210629
Seattle has a bunch of catenary for buses, although most of them are also hybrids to reach out into the suburbs where there is none.
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>>1211230
They manufacture brand new trolleybuses in Ukraine, so they're not all 1970s' units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Bus_Factory
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>>1211273
The build them in Belarus, too. The AKSM-321's are quite nice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belkommunmash
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>>1211278
These look pretty fancy.
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>>1210645
Damn, I visited Wellington (from Australia) back in 2006 and I didn't see these things, or at least I don't remember seeing them. Shame :(
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>>1211230
>junctions 3-5 km/h

Nonsense. That must be some really baaad junction. The junctions in Switzerland are normally built for normal traffic speed up to 50 km/h and even the chrap and worse ones when maintained properly can allow about 15-20 km/h which should not slow down the traffic that much.
On contrary, the electric motor has much better accelerance than diesel bus so the teolleybus usually catches up quickly after the junction.
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>>1211230
>1970 soviet units in Russia or Ukraine

Citation needed
I know only about few Škodas 9tr somewhere in Ukraine that might be from 1970s (i think few models are in Rivne, but those are early 1980 built) but 9tr is not soviet but Czechoslovak.
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Prague has officialy started runing a new trolleybus system and trolleybus line although just with one bus and its still mostly something like a test run.
Prague had an extensive trolleybus network from 1930's to 1970's. There was a plan to return them in start of 1990's but it was rejected.
In the upcoming years Prague wants to electrify the public transport to enhance environment in the city, however there is a lot of steep hilly streets where trams cannot run effectively and electrobuses would be too costly. Instead of using trolleybuses with a charging stations stations just at the stops, Prague has decided to introduce battery trolleybuses where they run a longer hilly segment of the route under the wires and downhill they can use regenerative braking and return the energy to the network.
The trolleybus therefore is not really fully functional network. It does not have loops or junctions. However we can say there is a trolleybus line back in Prague, since 2018.
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>>1210824
The trolleybus lines in Cambridge are a necessity as they run through a 1/2 mile long former trolley tunnel at Harvard Station that was converted into a bilevel underground busway but lacks any ventilation whatsoever, requiring frequent trolleybus service through it to push out fumes from the diesel buses and push in new air. Harvard is a vital link between about a dozen of the busiest suburban bus lines and the Red Line, and is one of the busiest outer stations in the system, and so the dedicated tunnel to bypass the traffic nightmare of Harvard Square and the trolleybuses required to make it work aren't going anywhere.

In fact, the MBTA recently took down the caternary for the ~4 mile stretch from Mount Auburn to Waverly to allow for some major roadwork, and recently re-installed brand new caternary within the past year or two.

Likewise, the Silver Line is a BRT abortion that needs the electrical power to run the 4 mile round trip in an un-ventilated tunnel under South Boston to South Station. The only way they'll get rid of the trackless trolleys on the Silver Line is if it gets replaced with proper light rail.
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>>1212006
Maybe.
I meant that this ZiU was quite common in former USSR.
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>>1212001
Yep, shitty junctions are still an issue.
In Moscow most of junctions are limited to 5-10 km/h. And majority is shitty-maintained, so drivers drive slowly.
And there are some modern radio-controlled ones, those allow driving faster.
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>>1212014
Breddy gud. It seems like the hybrid systems are becoming quite popular, apparently they don't need too large batteries nor very fast charging systems, but they save quite a bit of the cost for wires. I'd never heard about using only catenary on the uphill sections, but it's pretty ingenious. Also Prague having a large tram network probably means that they just use the same electrical system of the trams for the trolleys.
btw according to trolleymotion there's 299 operating trolleybus systems in the world, Prague would be the 300th.
>>
Does anyone know something about Moscow?
Las thing I heard the future for trolleybuses in Moscow looked murky. On one hand they've recently removed trolley wires all around the city center, however they have been buying some new vehicles for the lines in the outskirts. In 2016 there were rumors that they planned to shut down all trolleys by 2020, but closures have pretty much stopped by now, so that seems unlikely by now, maybe in the long term tho?
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>>1212054
Yes, it is true, they are killing trolleybus.
They promised fixing it, but in fact they just replaced many routes with buses. (Or didn't replace at all. I hate Moscow mayor, since he destroyed route I used, the 1 trolleybus)
And their new russia-made buses with russian engines are just aweful. New bus (less than 3 month I believe) and already burns oil and coolant badly, so badly, that can be called gasenwagen.
Also they are popularizing small buses based on Mercedes Sprinter van or Iveco, something similar to latin 'micro', but it fucking city, where should go long bus with flex joint in middle.
Also this mayor introduced bus lanes... You might say a good thing, but it fact no. It causes traffic jams and dangerous driving due to poor implementation.
And you know what? He is not even from Moscow, nor from other big city, he's from fucking shithole part of shithole, where main transport is deer carriage.
And nobody voted for him...
By the way this is why I just fucken moved from that country.
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>>1212017
>frequent trolleybus service through it to push out fumes from the diesel buses and push in new air
Wow. That's pretty crazy.
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>>1212079
>they are popularizing small buses based on Mercedes Sprinter van or Iveco
Wouldn't that just be a marshrutka? I thought Moscow has phased them out.
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>>1212104
Yep, marshrutka. But back then they were private and illegal, now they are less private and more legal and they replace some bus routes (pretty busy ones I have to say) with pic related
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>>1212124
I mean there were a bus 13 (near paveletsky rail terminal) and it's route was short (https://wikiroutes.info/msk?routes=1146) and it's purpose was to transport people from subway and train to offices.
It was normal-sized bus and it was full (pic related).
And now imagine what happens in this small blue turd, considering that number of parallel buses are the same, and intervals are the same.
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Landskrona, Sweden. New system from 2003.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LMa0BVPlhc
Also museum traffic with a guest from Stockholm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQ1fhBIwNg
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>>1212127
In the latter case, they had to dig it out of a barn first.
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>>1212031
Not that much common anymore. If there is some working it's definitely a younger one than from 1970s. They were produced all the way to 1990s. And their construction is pretty....well...easy to rot and be damaged. So there is no way some 40yo ZiU would be still working :)
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>>1212050
The line where they introduced this is pretty short compared to the rest of the bus lines. It connects 2 metro terminals, one downhill and one uphill. And the wires are on a shorter section which makes about 1/3 of the line.
Still if the bus should be running the whole service as other regular buses (fast turns at end stations) and carrying bigger ammounts of people as usually. In other words, working in normal service, not some fancy useless electrobus line. Then it needs some more technology development and testing. Batteries are not so quickly charged as they should be and there is a charging needed at the terminuses. However it seems this is the way to go for Prague. Let's hope for some more trolleybus lines in a future.
See the map, wires are between stations Kundratka and Prosecká
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>>1212126
>>1212079
Yep, that definitely sounds like latin American tier planning. Amazing that a city like Moscow would fall for the "buses cause traffic" meme. It seems to me they're removing trolleys and instead using those minibuses bc the retard mayor thinks that more maneuverable buses will reduce traffic jams, when it's actually the other way around, trolleybuses tend to attract riders (trams even more so), while small overcrowded microbuses will just make people want to use a car when possible. There's always a segment of population that tends between car and public transport, even when other parts of the population will only use one or the other. But again the mayor probably thinks everyone using public transport will keep using it no matter what. Sad!
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>>1212134
I know they're still running ZiU 9's in Moldova, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were that old. Of course it's damn near impossible to tell just by looking at most of this Soviet era stuff, especially post-Soviet.
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>>1212079
>gasenwagen
What did anon mean by this
But seriously, fuck your mayor
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>>1212183
The oldest ZiUs in Chisinau are from 1985, you can look at a rather complete and updated list at Transphoto page
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>>1212175
>that definitely sounds like latin American tier planning.
Latin america is better. They have 'micros' in places where there is no much passenger traffic, and those micros have insanely low intervals.

And traffic is caused not by buses, or number of cars, just by shitty design of roads and speedcameras (that also monitor other shit).
With previous mayor we didn't had that much traffic (some people will say no, but they didn't drove a car at all).
And yea, you can't drive there a car normally either.
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>>1212244
>What did anon mean by this
Shitty assembly quality of bus, so shitty that gases from engine go into passenger compartment. And engine is shitty too, so it burns oil and antifreeze, so it causes more smoke to enter the cabin.
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>>1212175
And yeah, they don't think at all. I meant they think only about money that they can get doing this, because this Iveco-based thing costs like a normal bus.
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>>1212279
>Latin america is better. They have 'micros' in places where there is no much passenger traffic, and those micros have insanely low intervals.
You're wrong tho, I know Mexico City and micros are used as a universally all over the place, mostly where there's no metro. They're also extremely unsafe because they're private, often owned by the drivers themselves, and terribly maintained.
Compared to latin america Moscow's public transit is pretty decent, it's somewhat more orderly, reliable and safe. Hell, Moscow has better public transit that many southern european cities, even if many of the vehicles are much older and maybe not as comfortable.
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Speaking of Mexico City, trolleybuses there have a doubtful future. As of now, the trolleybus fleet consists mainly of two batches, one from the mid to late 90's, and one from the 80's (some from around 83-84, others from around 87-88). Plus a handful of units from 1975 which are still in regular service.

In the last couple of years on one hand there has been no effort to renew trolleybuses, and financing for the STE (Servicio de Transportes Eléctricos, public enterprise operating trolleys and the Xochimilco light rail) has been continually reduced, in a likely effort to eventually close it down or privatize it. Meanwhile a lot of investment has gone to the clunky Metrobús BRT system, to the point where one single Metrobús line gets about 90% as much financing as the whole STE. If the STE isn't kill yet it is thanks to its powerful union, which dates back to the streetcar days.
On the other hand, some time ago some trolleybus lines where converted into sort of quasi-BRT called "Corredor Cero Emisiones", where a bus lane was drawn and physically separated (with little bumps on the street), and trolleybus stops were refurbished. This was ofc a bare-bones improvement, and this was hence dubbed "Corredor Cero Inversiones" (zero investment corridor). Despite that, these corridors work pretty well, they offer rather good frequency, and manage to mostly avoid traffic jams. The newer buses from the 90s are used on these lines.

As of now, there are 3 Corredor Cero Emisiones lines, and 5 conventional lines. Single rides cost 4 pesos (.21 usd) on the CCE, 2 pesos (.10 usd) on the regular lines, this is the absolutely cheapest fare in all of Mexico City, together with the public buses (NOT the private micros), since the subway fare was raised to 3 pesos.

Pic related shows trolleybus lines and light rail line (TL). Lines A, D, and S are CCE. Line K was cut back recently on the eastern side, because the new metro line overlapped, so in this case it was a reasonable measure.
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>>1212570
The new government *MIGHT* improve things, the now ruling party has on at least one occasion spoken out against the (meme) proposal of replacing the trolleybuses with battery buses (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/articulo/metropoli/cdmx/2016/11/23/morena-rechaza-sustitucion-de-trolebus-por-autobus-de-baterias).

The new Mexico City mayor Claudia (((Sheinbaum))) in her program included proposals of improving the trolleybus system, extending it by 5 km and reactivating 13 km of it. There's no point in ever trusting political programs in Mexico, but at least hers was somewhat more realistic than others which at times promised crazy things like "100 more km of metro lines".

Though there's only 8 lines those rack up 203 km (I think that includes overlapping lines, of which however there's not much). According to the STE union there's 450 km of wire in the city (not counting each way). Some of that will never be used again because it's redundant with metro, but other parts could be reactivated if the investment were to be made available. Time will tell.

Pic related is one of the oldest units still in operation, from 1975, a testament to the durability of the trolleybus.
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>>1212570
>"Corredor Cero Inversiones" (zero investment corridor
Kek
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>>1212079
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoвaя_мoдeль_тpaнcпopтнoгo_oбcлyживaния_Mocквы
This?
>>1212175
Even cities like Hong Kong still seems to have same kind of mindset
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>>1212582
Ironically, Mexico City's clunky BRT, the Metrobus, which has been hailed by many laymen as a great improvement, has actually been a massive rip-off. One Metrobus line costs over 1.2bn pesos a uear, including vehicle cost divided by useful life, while the budget for the STE is just 1.4bn pesos a year for 8 trolleybus lines and one LRT.
OTOH the surprisingly good quality of the corredor cero emisiones lines, also thanks to the trolleys amazing acceleration which makes them agile in city traffic (and makes for a fun ride), is nothing short of a miracle,considering what they have to work with. Trolleybuses are really well suited for mexico city as long as they just get a physically separated bus lane.
Fun fact, many lines run both ways on "ejes viales" a sort of fast, one-way thoroughfare introduced in the 70, so they have a counterflow bus lane. When the ejes viales were created they were conceived to have this type of trolley setup, since many of those roads were converted from avenues where previously trams had run. The standard road signs on those thoroughfares by design feature wire support for trolley catenary.
The 70s-80s were the heyday of trolleybuses:

>In 1989 it was operating about 700 trolleybuses on 30 lines with a route length of 557 km. It was the largest trolleybus system in Latin America
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>>1212124
What's their capacity?
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>>1210629
We had them for years and years in Philadelphia and I loved them.. They called them "trackless trolleys" and we had tons of regular Trolleys, too. Decades later, I go down there and all the tracks are paved over. I think the stinking power co. bills made Diesel look good. Plus: Philadelphia.
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>>1211062
The SEPTA Trolleys sure had some torque. Put you back in your seat
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>>1212711
I believe 21 seats and they claim that 45 in total.
By the way, it is not even it Moscow, so it might be fine to there.
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We've got a pretty substantial trolley fleet here in Vancouver. The buses are modern with both 40' and 60' coaches. The only knock on them is that they don't have air conditioning which can suck in the summer. But I imagine in the future new orders will have them.

They usually run on routes 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,14,16,17,19 and 20. All routes are in the City of Vancouver, except the 19 which goes into Burnaby.
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>>1212569
Dunno about Mexico.
I know that in Chile they have those micro, they are not too bad maintained, some sticker tuning is present. But drivers are just something, open doors before stop, close doors while accelerating (and power-weight ratio is just insane)... And considering that micros are based on truck (freight) chassis, it is firm ride indeed.
In Santiago they've proper buses tho.

In Moscow public transit is not much better I believe. Subway is not maintained at all, (fires, derailment... Old trains are old, while new are extreme shit). Trolleybuses can give you 550V shock, because they weren't maintained. Trams, buses are only thing that is somehow maintained. Suburban trains - it is OK if doors don't close/open, because they are 50+ years old.
Transportation might seem decent, but in fact it is not much better.
>>1212589
Dunno, maybe.
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>>1212807
45 in total is including standing?
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>>1212852
yep
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>>1212017
Didn't know they used the trolleybuses as air vents at the Harvard Square bus tunnels. That's actually brilliant.
Also, kek'd at your description of the Silver Line. "BRT abortion" is quite apt. The T needs to restore some streetcar lines to reduce the need for diesel/CNG buses, preferably restoring the A and outer E branches (Packards Corner-Watertown Square & Heath Street-Forest Hills/Arborway), and Green-eats-Washington-Silver, running up the Pleasant Street Incline to Washington Street, down through Dudley, and turning onto Warren Street and Blue Hill Ave to serve Franklin Park, being coincidently being dubbed the F Branch.
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How many cities with trolleybus systems have you visited (or you recall visiting them) and which one is your favourite so far and why?

For me it will be probably 24 systems, all of them in Europe. My most favourite will be probably Salzburg, it has very extensive system with modern and unique fleet and lots of unique spots in the historic centre like riding through narrow medieval gate, old epic tunnel, some house tunnels and narrow streets. I like it a lot. In a similar way I also liked Luzern back in the day when there were bus trailers in service.
From my home country I like the most Zlín system. The long and busy line to the neighbouring town of Otrokovice and cute narrow street line 4. It fots the city a lot. Too bad they got rid of 14Tr and 15Tr, the new fleet is soulless.
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>>1212824
>Chile
If you refer to Santiago, it's a ridiculously spread out city, and they have massive car usage. The micros aren't the problem, but sitting in traffic is. In any case, Santiago is far from your prototypical latam city.
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>>1212994
>>1212820
Ah, yes, Salzburg and Vancouver, two rare examples of cities that apparently put great value in their trolleybuses.
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Anyone here ever rode on the Crimean Trolleybus?
>longest trolleybus line in the world, 96 km, running from Simferopol to Yalta
>massive system structured around the interurban line with many local lines
>extremely full of win
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>>1213007
Unfortunately I didn't manage to go there before the Russian occupation.
Traveling now to Crimea from Europe is basicaly impossible and also risky.

There is also this cute beach tram line on Crimean peninsula, in the village of Molochnoe. However, no idea if it still works. The news are rather incomplete in last years.

edit: okay, apparently the service ended in 2014. Thanks, Putin.
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>>1213037
>Traveling now to Crimea from Europe is basicaly impossible and also risky.
my russian gfs family goes there all the time tho, it's like the prime russian holiday region
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>>1213039
That's the only passport that will allow you to enter there basically.
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>>1212994
I've only ever traveled through Solingen by train. You can see the bus terminal with several trolleybusses from the station.
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>>1213007
I have. I've also been on the Crimean Marshrutka, and, eh...
The trolleybus is intended entirely for locals, not tourists. If you're a tourist, getting to the tourist attractions will require you to take the Marshrutka. Best way to get to other towns though is hiring a taxi driver, and they'll actually show you around the towns, and the cities of Simferopol and Sevastopol.
I was last in Crimea in 2012, and for my citizenship, I didn't need a visa to be a tourist in Ukraine.
I can tell you about the old terminal of Kyiv Zhuliany and the domestic terminal of Simferopol airport, and they're both shit. Worst airports I've ever been to. What's more is that Simferopol Airport is a former Soviet air base, meaning it's a 20 minute taxi from the runway to the apron.
Anyway, trolleybuses at the time were in a period of modernisation. The old Soviet built trolleybuses which basically looked like they were going to fall apart at every corner (thanks to how the body flexed) were being replaced by new Lviv Bus Factory trolleybuses, featuring LCD displays for the route information and advertising as well as a low floor design with leaning capabilities for accessibility.
I can't imagine that the fleet replacement was completed before 2014.
If any anons have questions, I can see if I can answer them.
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>>1213067
AFAIK there were no Soviet trolleybuses operated in Simferopol system. All the old trolleybuses were Czechoslovak built Škodas 9Tr or 14Tr. The new supplies were then already Ukrainian.

Nowadays there is a rather big supply of Russian built trolleybuses Trolza, because the Russian government wants to show it cares about the well-being of their "new citizens". Also it's something like a summer holiday region as Anon before me said, so it should be nice looking.

According to the news on Transphoto and what I understand a little bit, there was a shortage of electricity supplies in the beginning of 2016, but now the system should be OK working. However it's hard for me to compare the current service with the previous service in 2014, as I don't know the situation. Maybe the service was a little suspended, as Russia isn't very favourable of trolleybuses, as you can see in Moscow.
>>
>>1213000
Maybe, I've not been in many latam city/countries.
> it's a ridiculously spread out city, and they have massive car usage...but sitting in traffic is.
Same shit in Moscow. And I think that Santiago doesn't have such bad traffic as Moscow. In Moscow avg. speed for cars is like 13-15 km/h (this is the reason, why some cagers had bought and electric kickscooter, becase speed is higher) in rush-hours, and Santiago seems to be faster, but I don't know for sure.
>>1213037
>edit: okay, apparently the service ended in 2014. Thanks, Putin.
Thanks Putin for everything blyad. For mayor in Moscow, for lack of European food, for burning cheese, for locally-made shitboxes... Thanks for 60RUB=1USD...
>>1213074
Not quite, while they rid of trolleybuses in Moscow, 3-rd tier cities buy those for scrap-metal prices and use them.
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>>1213263
m8, Moscow has twice the population of Santiago and it's a much denser city. Stop thinking that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Ive been to both Santiago and Moscow, and even though it's far from perfect Moscow handles transit better than Santiago considering size. Santiago is a city that grew recently, outside of the tiny center it was all designed around the automobile.
>>
Aerfer FI 711.2 F/Pd - Alfa Mille (Alfa Romeo)
Ganz Solaris T12

CTP Napoli (T.P.N.)
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>>1213455
The left one looks like a Berlin metro train
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>>1213455
Italian orange filobuses are hnnng. Too bad that Italy, similarly to France or any other "southern" European country doesn't really care about keeping anything in good condition and lots of the systems died or are slowly dying.
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>>1213464
I especially like the boxy design of 1990's
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>>1213465
doorgasm
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Something for true enthusiasts: guess the city
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>>1213469
Athens?
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>>1213483
Well done.
Athens have a very extensive trolleybus system which is pretty unique in Greece. The atmosphere of the city can get sometimes very...well...non-european.
Vast and dense low-rise buildings and hot streets remind me of Central America or middle east.
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>>1213486
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>>1213487
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>>1213488
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>>1213467
Menarini F201
Tramvie Elettriche Parmensi S.p.A.
Parma (italy)
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>>1213489
And one more back in the days of ole'
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>>1212994
>How many cities with trolleybus systems have you visited (or you recall visiting them) and which one is your favourite so far and why?

One: Chisinau, Moldova, and it's awesome because Soviet era ZiU 9's.
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>>1213469
>>1213492
Thanks for the comfy info dump
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>>1213464
>>1213465
That's a sexy stretch of trolleybus line, both the same city? Napoli?

>>1213467
sexy trolleybus, doorgasm indeed. I love those four-part doors, whatever they're called.

>>1213469
Cute old timer, what year is it? Regular service or heritage unit? I love how you can't always tell with trolleybuses, since they can last so long.

>>1213486
>The atmosphere of the city can get sometimes very...well...non-european.
Also because trolleybus operation is getting ever more rare in Europe, other than in eastern europe ofc. Switzerland is pretty big on trolleys, Italy has a bunch systems tho not always in top shape, in other countries it's an occasional, rare exception, only Salzburg is a major city with an important and valued trolleybus service.


Here's an obligatory Schaffhausen trolleybus, one of the smallest systems in the world, if not THE smallest. Just one line, about 7,5 km, operating 6 vehicles, and one as backup. Livery commemorates 50 years of trolleybus service in 2016.
>>
Toronto used to have a Trolley Bus system composed of 10 routes. However the system was eliminated in 1993 for a few reasons. The Trolley Buses and their infrastructure was old and actually costed more to maintain then the streetcars. It would have costed millions to fix and replace everything and at the time the TTC was under a budget crunch due to the recession at the time (and low ridership as well). As well things like Oil being still relatively cheap and the advent of CNG Buses (which themselves didn't last long in Toronto) all essentially brought down the trolley buses.

As well the system was essentially 2 independent systems that weren't linked together. There was the Lansdowne Division and the Eglinton Division. The TTC proposed converting the 32 Eglinton West into a Trolley Bus route to bridge the gap between the two divisions however this was obviously never built. They also looked at converting the 94 Wellesley, 75 Sherbourne and 78 Runnymede South into Trolley Routes while extending the 89 Weston all the way to Steeles; none of this happened either. To be honest even if the TTC had invested the money to revamp the system part of me doubts it would have survived anyways since only a year after the system was closed the Conservatives were elected in Ontario and promptly eliminated the Provincial Transit Subsidy which has forever hurt the TTC and its finances.
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>>1213424
Area of Moscow (before it 'exploded'): 1070 km^2
Population of Moscow (before it 'exploded') : 12 000 000
Density: 11200 ppl/km
Area of Santiago: 641 km^2
Population of Santiago: 6 000 000
Density: 9800 ppl/km
Yes, Moscow is 15% more denser. Not a big difference.
And since Stgo is designed around automobile it has much better traffic situation, while Moscow was never designed at all (those ring roads were some protective thing back in past, and kremlin is literally a protective thing), so traffic jams are a thing.
Transit?
Stgo has 118 km of metro lines, while Moscow 364 km. So Moscow 1.5 more tracks/nigger. But I guess this will change soon, since they are building more lines. And Moscow doesn't have automatic trains. But Stgo has buses, that work, while Moscow doesn't have good enough on-level transport. Trams do go parallel to Metro or suburban train, trolleybuses used to do same thing, and buses - frequent never go to places they are really needed.
If you compare Moscow 20 years ago, it will be close to Stgo now, but bigger.
Also you have to consider climate. Moscow has snow, and Stgo - very rarely, so car in Moscow is extremely preferable to have, because dirt, while in Santiago - you can walk all year round.

Dunno, I like more Stgo, becase it is not cancer yet, it is more evenly populated, while Moscow is empty in center and majority live 10+ km from center.
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>>1213424
>>1213798
And yeah, you were as a tourist in Moscow, or in business trip?
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>>1213634
>That's a sexy stretch of trolleybus line, both the same city? Napoli¿

No, first is Genova (very sexy downtown), sexy is San Remo (coastline interurban line)
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>>1213798
I never been to a single one of those cities, but as a streetview visitor and because I know a little bit about Russia and its urbanism, I have to say that Moscow is hardly comparable capital city to anything west of it. Moscow urbanism is build on tall and massive apartment units, the newer the massiver and a network of very wide streets (not expresways though), this kind of urbanism inherited only some post-soviet countries or kinda similar is also China. Moscow is dense but at the same time it has very wide streets (still full of cars though, because everyone in Moscow wants to own and ride a car, it is a strangely individualistic society). Sounds likea wet dream of some western current urbanists, right? Well, tge architecture and living standard of those apartment blocks is terrible, so all the pros of dense city are ruined.
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>>1213829
Is there a reason why so many cities in Italy use the same kind of orange livery for public transit? Or is it just a popular fashion to make it easily recognizable?
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>>1213856
I guess it used to be some kind of fashion or traditional livery, maybe also given by some standard, as the first orange trams or buses date very back in time, however nowadays many cities abandoned orange livery and have their own. Sometimes it even looks more like a circus as every generation of vehicles have their own new livery etc. (see Florence for example).
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>>1213829
>sexy is San Remo

second is San Remo, ffs
*facepalm*

Here have some trolleybus picture as an excuse for error.
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>>1213868
>having logos of banks on your public transport
>>
Last days of Škoda 9Tr double-units in RIga, Latvia in the year of 2000.

The trolleybus system in Riga is one of the largest in the European Union. Larger might be only the system in Athens, however there are unfortunately no exact and updated statistics published anywhere. The numbers on Wikipedia are just super wrong as sometimes they count only length of the overhead wires network, sometimes the length of the lines (even if they usually share some streets and overlap). In this case, probably the Russian Wiki is the most accurate. If we could believe those numbers, then Riga has something about 323 km of the trolley network, while Athens/Piraeus about 350 km. Also Riga has about 250 vehicles, while Athens about 100 more than that.
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>>1213634
>Cute old timer, what year is it? Regular service or heritage unit?

Should be from the beginning of the 21st century, I think 2003, but not sure. It is a regular service.
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>>1213868
Been there, that pic is literally 11/10 showing tram, trolley and funicular.

>>1213874
the bank owns the funicular, they bought it so that it wouldn't be shut down. A rare instance of a bank being kinda based.

>>1213880
Wait, that beast in >>1213469 is from the early 21th century? srsly? It looks like it's from the 80's.
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>>1213878
So the back unit is just a trailer but it has trolleypoles which are raised, and the front unit has its trolleypoles lowered and somehow connected to the trailer for power, did I get that right?
Fuck me that's awesome.

Also I find that getting information on trolleybuses is usually much harder than for trams. Trams are generally better documented on the interwebs. I've never found a proper trolleybus or tram-and-trolleybus map for moscow, although there are public transit maps to be found which do show trolleybus lines.
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Lublin, Poland.
CIty of Lublin has a population about 350,000 and it is the largest city in Poland without tram network, however it operates an extensive trolleybus network.
Poland in general has never been very keen on trolleybuses, unlike its neighbouring countries like (former) Czechoslovakia or (former) USSR. Today there are only 3 trolleybus systems, in smaller cities of Tychy and Gdynia and this one in Lublin.
The Lublin network hasn't been very extensive until very recently. Buses used to be much more important 10 years ago and trolleybuses were just a minor side service. However today we can say it is probably the most fastly developed system in the EU.
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>>1213881
>Wait, that beast inis from the early 21th century? srsly? It looks like it's from the 80's.

Picture is 2003. Bus is 80's indeed.

>>1213882
>So the back unit is just a trailer but it has trolleypoles which are raised, and the front unit has its trolleypoles lowered and somehow connected to the trailer for power, did I get that right?
Basically yes, just that the back bus isn't a trailer but originally is also a fully operational normal bus. It's a unit of 2 normal trolleybuses, just as a unit of e.g. 2 trams type T3.

>I've never found a proper trolleybus or tram-and-trolleybus map for moscow, although there are public transit maps to be found which do show trolleybus lines.
If you mean a schematic map of lines, then I can't help, but if you want a map of the overhead network, then generally for Russian cities, the site Transphoto.ru is a good resource. See pic (stand for 1st May 2018, red are recently dismantled lines. Sad.)
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>>1213902
>the back bus isn't a trailer but originally is also a fully operational normal bus
cool af. But at that point, was it still an operational bus? It looks like it has no headlights. Also what are all those lines at the front of the trailer unit?

>if you want a map of the overhead network, then generally for Russian cities, the site Transphoto.ru is a good resource. See pic
thanks for that.
Damn that pic hurts my eyes, jesus fuck I didn't know it was that bad. What a waste.
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>>1213907
>But at that point, was it still an operational bus?
I guess it wasn't. According to this and some other pictures it was basically connected to this unit for a long time and the back bus was kinda transformed into this "always-dependent" bus. Something like a parasite that can't operate alone. AS you can see it has no headlights for example, probably also the driver's place was reduced. I am kinda curios if something similar could be applied also to the front bus, e.g. if the tail lights were reduced or the trolley poles. However it is hard to find any infos on this service. Also these kind of units were in service in other cities of ex-USSR, e.g. Kiev, Odessa, Sevastopol, Gorlovka, etc.

>Damn that pic hurts my eyes, jesus fuck I didn't know it was that bad. What a waste.
And this is just the most recent state. If there would be a map mapping last 3 years together you would see the huge damage together.
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>>1213908
>And this is just the most recent state. If there would be a map mapping last 3 years together you would see the huge damage together.
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>>1213922
Map of Moscow system 2013 (blue are trolleybus, red are trams - notice that in previous map were no trams, so it might confuse a little)
Notice especially the reducion in the inner city. Basically the whole central part of the system was destroyed
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>>1213927
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>>1213927
You're right.
And do you know the fun fact? Mayor says that wires damages the historical sight of Moscow.
And trolleys are there since 1930's I believe...
>>1213832
Yep, it is more close to China now, considering 20+ stories nigger houses built right now.
And streets aren't wide enough considering density. And those streets were designed in soviet union, where cars were a luxury. And even in soviet unions there were traffic jams is some parts...
But originally Moscow were more European city. Look ar Germany - they have plattenbau, just as Moscow used to build, not higher that 5 stories (because otherwise elevator was required, and it is expensive).
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>>1214055
>wires damages the historical sight of Moscow.

He shows one and only thing by saying that. That he never traveled outside of Moscow to aby other European city. Bern, Prague, Milan, Budapest...all of them can happily live with tram and trolleybus wires in the cities and, with all respect, the value of their historical centres are much bigger than in case of Moscow.
I think the common consensus in developed world is that the most damage to historical value is masses of cars.
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>>1214055
>look at Germany
Well eastern Germany and all of the rest of the eastern bloc architecture after WWII was to some extent influenced by soviet architecture. The Karl-Marx-Allee in Berlin being one of the most striking example. So it's not really comparable.
However "plattenbau" was being built in the whole world in 60s to 80s basically. France, UK, Italy, even USA had them.
The thing is not the building type but the whole urbanism.
Russia built whole cities just on apaetment blocs and simple wide-street architecture. In Europe these apartment blocs were usually just a new part or new sattelite towns of otherwise older and bigger more complex cities.
In Russia these blocs basically became the synonym for the words house or building. Generations of people can't even imagine living in something different than apartment blocs. They are the only accessible type of living. That's why Moscow grows into something that reminds more of China than Europe.
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>>1214143
>>1214055
Either he is really, really retarded, or, more likely, it's just an excuse to remove trolleybuses under pressure from bus manufacturers (remember that buses don't last as long and have to be renewed much more often) and oil companies,
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In Czechia there are 14 trolleybus systems (included the small experimental Prague system) which makes it together with Switzerland and Italy one of the EU countries with the most trolleybus systems.
Typical for the country are trolleybuses from the production of Škoda, which used until 2004 bus bodies of their own production but now they produce trolleybuses by using other bus bodies from companies Solaris, Iveco and SOR (and some others). The models 9Tr were mass produced for other eastern bloc countries and you can see models 14Tr and 15Tr also in the USA.
Here is a picture from the smallest trolleybus system in Czechia. It is a town of Mariánské Lázně which has population only 13,000. However the buses run also to the neighbouring municipality of Velká Hleďsebe with 2,300 citizens. There are 4 lines in service, 1 of these lines use trolleybuses with diesel engine for running on sections without wires.
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>>1214198
>It is a town of Mariánské Lázně
As soon as I saw your pic related, I recognised that town. I've been to that town so many times, it's crazy. I somehow know it well enough to say that, that pic is taken on the line going back towards the station, and that the bus is between the park in that town and some of the bohemian buildings, including the hotels, particularly the Nové Lázne. I think the police station is across the road from that.
>1 of these lines use trolleybuses with diesel engine for running on sections without wires
Or because it goes to the Kaufland, which has no trolley wires, and the town decided that the trolleybus needs to be able to take passengers from the supermarket to the town...

I'm getting weird nostalgia now, since that's been a town I've been to several times throughout childhood on family holidays, and it's been several years since I was last there.
I know that the town is about 45 minutes by car away from the German border, specifically, the town of Selb, in northern Bavaria, a town known for its Rosenthal factory and the Thomas Group facilities.
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>>1214206
That's nice. Did you also visit some other trolleybus towns in Czechia or somewhere else? How would you compare them?
Me personally I was never in Mariánské Lázně but I heard it's little bit low on money (which is understandable as it is so small) but still it can afford some new bus here and there.
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>>1214213
In terms of trolleybuses, I can only compare them to a handful of other places, which are varied in what they are...

Compared to Plzen, the only other Czech city I've been to with trolleybuses (I was last in Prague in 2009, long before the trolleybus was reactivated there), and it's honestly been too long since I was last in Plzen to give you a proper answer.

Compared to Russian trolleybuses, it's far better than what is mostly Soviet era stuff. Last time I was on a Russian trolleybus was in 2010 though, so I can't say too much other than that I understand why many Russian cities are dismantling them. Both Moscow and Astrakhan were the ones I went to in 2010.

Ukrainian trolleybuses are mostly modern now. A lot of them are now Skoda made models or even Lviv Bus Factory models. I've really only been on the Kyiv, Odessa and Crimean Trolleybus systems. The new Lviv Bus Factory models are probably better than the Skoda ones, at least in terms of comfort, but the Skodas are much, much better than Soviet era trolleybuses or even the dreaded Marshrutka. I hear that since the annexation of Crimea, and the lack of new trolleybuses from either Skoda or Lviv, the Russians are replacing old, or even broken down trolleybuses with either Marshrutkas or just regular buses, since the spare parts won't go to Crimea either.

The only other trolleybuses I've been on have been Salzburg, which is a truly modernised trolleybus system and a great model to follow, and Basel, which is alright, but not as great as Salzburg. I have been on the Zürich trolleybus, but I was too young to remember it, since it was in the early 2000s.
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>>1214219
Basel shut down its trolleybus system in 2008, to instead focus only on trams and buses.
>>
Trolleybus KINO (spoiler: ending is very deep and heartbraking)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBq7gNTXJHI
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>>1214147
>or new sattelite towns
They existed, but they were 'connected' to Moscow, and rebuilt multiple times...
>In Russia these blocs basically became the synonym for the words house or building. Generations of people can't even imagine living in something different than apartment blocs.
True. But we have some 'suburbs' withing 1-2 hours from center, there some people live in houses, but it is inconvenient at all.
>>1214160
More likely his friend had bought a bus factory. Or some other reasons.
Don't forget, he wasn't born in Moscow, and everyone, who wasn't born in moscow (or st.ptrbrg) are jealous and hate Moscow citizens.
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bump for the buses of trolley
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I am not going to post the cities names
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Instead you can try to guess the cities yourself
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I will post the results later
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And last one
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>>1214975
I'd say this one's in Linz because it says on the fucking front of it kek
the other ones idk
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>>1215015
You're a smart boy aren't ya.
Yeah, that one was rather easy but I guess it is possible there are anons here who never heard about Linz, lol, so it might be interesting for them.
It's a Van Hool Exqui.City 24 model which is a damn nice and comfy trolleybus, I guess it could be a role model for new systems which might want to implement something like a light rail but without building railways.

The rest might try someone else.
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>>1215087
I hate the look of those VanWhores, they look like wannabe trams, which makes me cringe. I prefer the Hess Lightram (though the naming is just as cringey).

Also we have three VanHool hybrid biarticulated units here in Barcelona, and they're the shittiest ever, they break down all the fucking time. Once one of them even broke down right on the tram tracks, ironically blocking the real tram.
But maybe I'm just butthurt at all the fucktards screaming about how we should just get those crapbuses instead of trams.
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>>1215121
I feel what you are talking about, however this Van Hool is something I can still digest and it looks rather bussy instead of trammy. Also a big plus is that it is in service in a classical trolleybus system like Linz and not in those, as you say, cringy wanna-be tram systems without rails. So it does not pretend something, it simply exists.
More cringy are these Solaris "Metrostyle" trolleybuses IMHO
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>>1215189
I think your pic looks way more "bussy" than that VanHool, the front is more boxy, and they don't have those ultra-faggy wheel covers. Those and that pseudo-aerodynamic front really grind my gears, it's a fucking bus, you don't have to try to hide that, and it's not going to go more than 50, 60 km/h, it doesn't need to be aerodynamic. Trams get a pass because the "nose" usually hides the coupler (thought it's still kinda dumb), but aerodynamic urban buses are cringe af.
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>>1214972
Bro I don't think anyone is guessing, resolve pls
pretty pls
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>>1214969
Budapest
>>1214971
Vilnius
>>1214972
Sarajevo?
>>1214974
Kaunas
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>>1215813
true dat
one more is missing, can you guess? >>1214977
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Few more cities to guess
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>>1215881
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>>1215882
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>>1215885
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>>1215882
Lausanne? The destination sounds french, and I remember Lausanne still using trailers about year ago (prolly still do).

>>1215885
Warsaw?

>>1215889
dunno but that pic is PAINFULLY COMFY
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>>1215995
Lausanne is correct, rest not. Warsaw doesn't use trolleybuses.
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>>1215881
Szeged
>>1215885
Lublin
>>1215889
Chernivtsy?
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>>1216621
Szeged good, second totally wrong, third is correct country
>>
>>1216622
Ah shit, I overlooked the accent on the A. Has to be Czechia, Slovakia or Hungary




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