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Old thread is full of... something.

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>>3305570
>>3305574
Ahem.
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>>3305579

This thread's anthem, just for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

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>>3305592
You are a liar with no integrity.
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>>3305593

U mad tho?

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>>3305570
Yeah, the old thread was full of something, but it was entertaining as fuck. /p/ has just been a trove of entertainment for the last couple of weeks! Best /p/ is without pics!

(You gonna samefag and threaten yourself in the old one so it gets deleted now? That would be hilarious!)
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>>3305624
He will do that when he’s done posting pics.
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>>3305648
fave so far.
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Imagine being such a pussy you can only attempt to argue with someone while hiding behind Anon.

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>>3305654

I was pretty happy with that one.

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And a robin, because why not?

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Ambush is the new Chosis in terms of cancer potential to a thread.
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>>3305579
>>3305593
Photographs. Remember those things? Why can't we all just focus on those?
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>>3305570
>>3305574
>>3305592
>>3305603
>>3305605
>>3305607
>>3305611
>>3305613
>>3305636
>>3305639
>>3305648
>>3305651
>>3305657
>>3305658
>>3305661
>>3305665
You should have stuck to your word and left for good after your final post. Now there's more fuel for the fire to attack you for not being trustworthy and turning your trip off to attack other anons. No skin in this, just letting you know this look really bad.
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>>3305685

Why don't you become something new instead of staying a loser who contributes nothing to threads?

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>>3305723

This was me.

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>>3305685
>>3305723
You always talk about cancer and put it on a pedestal but I must ask, what do you think qualifies as good content?

Or is everything cancer to you because you're dead inside and photographically blind
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>>3305727
Woah Ambush, no need to turn your trip off to attack me. I was just saying it looks bad to declare you're done with /p/ for good then crawl back a few hours later.
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Hey, there are some good photos in this thread. Let's look at them and stop chatting shit.
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>>3305731

Thanks, but even better would be posting some instead of just referencing the troll(s).

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>anons accusing you of dropping your trip because you're a coward
It's like RuPaul calling you a fag.

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>>3305661
THICC
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I did post photos in the last thread and the ones before. All that happened was I got attacked out of hand. Hence, you are not allowed to post your images without getting attacked either. Why is this so difficult for idiots to understand? If you hit me, I'm going to hit you back ten times harder.
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>>3305831
learn how to take crit, you dork.
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>>3305837
>crit
>/p/
Good joke anon
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>>3305751
>It's like RuPaul calling you a fag.
kek

You can take the lad out of Liverpool but...
We have a saying: "You can't kid a kidder".
You had me going there for a minute (or so). lol

Here's another squirrel. The tourist board keeps quiet that the sand dunes were cultivated centuaries ago by planting marram grass to stop sand blowing onto the farmland of the Lancashire Plain and the "Pine Woods" were planted for the same reason about 100 years ago. The red squirells were imported from Scandanavia soon after.

Regardless of how wild they are they are hard to photograph. First time trying "wildlife" for me. There was a big black Raven lurking, he seemed immune to AF.
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Wow animal pictures, sure haven't seen these exact in google search before
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>>3305831

You vandalized entire threads because someone criticized your work? Care to tell me which shots, and what was said about them?

>If you hit me, I'm going to hit you back ten times harder.

I'll overlook the cringe factor, and just say that you have too much time on your hands. You should be out shooting if that's the case, not spamming. What exactly do you think you're hitting, anyway? A temporary thread that's going to 404 along with countless others within a few days?

Just post some photos.

I don't think I ever posted this one.

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>>3305845
Make a thread of your prefered choice/aesthetic then numbnuts.
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>>3305844

Always a scouser at heart.

I remember those things... totally different than the ones here.

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>>3305853
Wowser! That one looks just like the squirrel kid from Disney's The Sword in the Stone
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>>3305831
Holy shit dude, stop being such a colossal fucking faggot. How much of a prissy little preteen do you have to be to equate people making fun of your stupid photos to a fistfight. You're literally posting on the photography board of an anonymous anime website, but you're treating it like some sort of gangland turf war. It's pathetic and you should really reevaluate your priorities in life, because 4chan photo cred shouldn't be in the top 100.
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>>3305850
Playing coy is not endearing you to anyone.
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>>3305869

I think you may have a personality disorder.

I have definitely never posted this one before.

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>>3305730
>Everyone who disagrees with you is ambush
Woah Schizophrenia
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I'll share some from a hike last sunday!

If I ever share them again in the future (say in a couple of years) please know that is because I don't do much wildlife photog and not because I'm some weirdo everyone hates.

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Some bugs now.

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This little guy's web was fucking trippy IRL.

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Male included.

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>>3305891

I can understand that kind of confusion or paranoia when arguing with someone (it's why being Anon is so stupid) but what I don't get is how you can admit do destroying threads on purpose but still blame someone else for it happening. That's the crazy part, assuming it's the same guy.

>>3305892

What kind of bird is that?

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>>3305900
Looks like a juvenile Elegant Trogon.
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>>3305900
I kinda was hopping you'd be able to tell me, it looks weird as fuck.

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>>3305902
If it narrows the options, this is all from the north of Mexico.
I finally got to add this little friend to my dex. It's common as fuck and even gets close to people for food but for some reason I had never encountered one before.

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>>3305902

I'd say you're right on that... never even heard of it before. Well out of my neck of the woods.

>>3305903

Yeah, it is strange looking. Adults look pretty awesome. Do you see them often?

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>>3305904
Btw, that's a Coati, adorable as it sounds and looks. Bad framing but still looks cute.

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The power in these wings always impresses me.

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>>3305906
>>3305902
Oh yeah a bit rare, adults do live around this area but I don't actually have photos of them.
This are more common and very pretty

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>>3305913

You would understand if you were an American.
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>>3305915

The freedoms are certainly put into perspective when I see one eating a Canada Goose.

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>>3305914
These* (?)
>>3305915
I'm not and I do look in awe at birds like that, although not my favorite I do like the species.

This is from a trip last year I believe, to the most famous mountain of my city.
You might see pavement and that's because in the 60's the city built an aerial lift or a gondola and on the very first trip the cables snapped and it went down with the architects whom had built it, killing everyone.
The structure remains for tourist who'd like to hike on the mountainside.

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BTW I think I've shared this bear before, that's because once again I don't do wildlife that often but I like the photo.

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>>3305613
>>3305751
>>3305860
>>3305913
Your action shots are pretty amazing, thanks for sharing!
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What would some good manual lenses for wildlife shooting be?
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>>3305939
We don’t talk about lenses here, you fucking gearfag loser. We hide our EXIF and steamroll anyone who questions our authoritah!
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>>3305930

Thanks Broseph, my pleasure. I'm liking this thread so far, and hope people keep posting shots.

>>3305939

Any 200mm+ prime that you can manage to focus while hand holding, as tripods and monopods are great ways to miss shots in my opinion. Here's an ancient film photo I took with a 200mm manual lens.

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>>3305942

Kek, still mad are we? Good, that's what I wanted.

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>>3305945

What a horrible old scan. I'll have to find the negs.

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Some macro shots (INB4 definition) to mix it up a bit.

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fuckkkk these threads always make me want to go drop thousands of dollars on a telephoto lens.
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I'm back posting photos, and I'm in for the mess;

Burrowing Owl

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time for a real game;

it's wildlife: this young Strix felt from his nest on a rainy day and broke his wing. It took about 3 months for a good recover, and more time for his full adaption to his old environment. Now he's free again, I don't know where he went, never saw he after the release.
Coruja do Mato

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a good and wealth young burrowing owl. I'm monitoring their family for a while now. 3 years I guess. Nice to see how they are good in their new hole. the family have 3 chicks, all being to be in good wealth and back to the place they belong. I'm happy with them. :3
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I have plans for the 16th and 17th of June to go back there and see how they were doing. I'm missing this fella tho >>3305978

>>3305958
at least a fixed 300mmf4 or 400mmf5.6 if possible.
I'm also considering a Nikkor 200-500mmf5.6 in exchange of my 300mmf4, but I'm not sure if I should...

other thing, I'm also very worried about my country's wildlife. the animals are always getting far and far. Jaguatiricas are rare and they used to freak the hell out of my dogs some 15 years ago. Onças Pardas are being hunted. I'm sure there's something I need to do... but I don't know what
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>>3305984
>trading f4 for 5.6
Nope
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>>3305987
mostly because the VR and the zoom. I would loose sharpness overall, which I'm not that worried, about the iso bump I would have to do, nowadays cameras are handling it very well. it's just that voice inside my head telling me to do something which I don't know I should.

I would be fine with both lenses. Can't complain, both are good
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Good Photografy of that fox
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I've been birding for a few years now.
I actually took this one while shooting cars.

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This guy was shivering in a dwarf tree out front of the house, it was like 43º and drizzling...poor birb.

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>>3305984
>>3305989
I myself use a 300/4 and a 1.4x TC. This way I can have both.
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A few of my older ones

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>>3306108

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>>3306109

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>>3306110

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>>3306111

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>>3306112

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>>3306113

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>>3306114

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>>3306115

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First time in my life I've seen a Scarlet Tanager.
(really 11 fucking captchas?)

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>>3306288
Nice catch, though it looks a bit overexposed
>>
>>3306288
Oh, and also a bit oversharpened. Try making a copy, apply the sharpening and only mask in the bird so the branch doesn't have sharp edgy almost square-like details
>>
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good dog

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>>3306345
That's a goose, you can tell from the feathers.
I know it is easy to mix up, the difference is subtle, the dogs have thicker soft feathers and one less line around the dorsal fin.
>>
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>>3306390
>4608x3456
no
also judging from the thumbnail, crop in some more.
>>
>>3306345

this type of dog bite and never let go
>>
>>3306109
Ugh, my ex used to pick up every chick of this guys she encountered on the streets ( I guess they fall off their nests pretty often) They're cute but hard as fuck to keep. Every single one of them died.
>>
>>3306398
>whining about the stupid resolution rule
no
>>
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>>3305978

Good man. Here's a Waxwing I kept for a few months after she was attacked by something. She was bleeding badly and couldn't use her left wing at all. Good and strong now, but will probably have that droopy wing for life. I have seen her since letting her go, and she was doing well.
>>
>>3306026

what was your set up for this?
>>
>>3306677

Canon 70d
Tamron 150-600 g1

>>3306335
>>3306332
It was a pretty dark, overcast shot at the edge of thick woods, the shot came out pretty dark initially, and I hate editing :)
Are you looking at it on a phone? I can't see what you're seeing on my desktop with the branch, another reason I hate editing, you can never get a close match on pc/phone.
>>
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>>3306713
Watching it on a calibrated display. Not much really, just a bit oversharpened. The blown out sky is not that big of a problem, can be a nice high key photo, but the branch is distracting with its oversharpened contrasty look.
Sloppier job, but in lightroom you can bring up the shadows and lower contrast and clarity on the branch with adjustment brush.
You gotta learn tricks in processing, it can take a lot away from the image if you do a sloppy overcooked PP. This is why it is best to take the image right in camera in the first place.
>>
>>3306715
Now this one you got right in the camera, nice one.
>>
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>bump

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>>3306713
>Canon 70d
>Tamron 150-600 g1

No shit... Are all of these photos taken with that combination? Any specific issues with the lens? I've read the VC is rather inadequate, although the G2 is supposed to be better in that regard.
>>
>>3305570
>>3305579
I don’t care if you are on your best behavior in this thread, you are a self-important asshole and you will do anything for attention. Your threat of quitting was like a troubled teenage girl threatening to kill herself. When nobody gave a shit, you literally took your trip off and replied to yourself. What you really need is a friend in real life, not a fleeting encounter with an anonymous idiot online who hates you.
>>
>>3307330
>you are a self-important asshole and you will do anything for attention
Oh the irony.

>>3306715
This is cute
>>
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Decided to try out a cat.
>>
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>>3307354
>>
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>>3307355
>>
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>>3307356
Fucked up the exposure but I like the colors so postan anyway. I need to git better at both handling the cat and sneaking up to wildlife.
>>
>>3307323
Had the Sigma 50-500, it had a quite efficient stabilization.
The bane of all these big zooms is the long end gets soft as fuck and they get very heavy after a couple hours of hiking.
Using a prime telephoto makes the gear much lighter, smaller and allows for a deeper crop, plus in said deeper crop you will get a sharper image than on the big zoom long end small/no crop.
Not to mention the huge barrel extension acts as a huge dust pump coating your elements with very fine dust. A couple of seasons using it will lead to visible image degradation.
The only usable big supertele zooms are the pro series ones but they cost an arm and a leg after you sold your kidneys.
>>
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>>3307330

Looks like (You) need some attention. Are things bad at home?

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>>3307436
Can you share a bit of your routine or process when taking these photos? Like, how often do you go to the wild, and do you sit somewhere and shoot or do you move often looking for life?
>>
>>3307696

Every day for at least a couple of hours, and at least 16 hours per weekend. Hiking, camping, etc. Just being outside. I get antsy sitting for too long, so usually limit myself to a couple of hours before I start wandering again. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hinders. Just the luck of the draw, really.

I generally only get one or two (or zero) shots that I truly love every year, but that's just how it is.
>>
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>>3307710

Today I was out from 5am to 8pm. Got rained on, saw an Osprey catch a Flounder (pic related) and watched some small birds. Trying to find the Osprey's nest, but it always flies off somewhere different. It may not have one.

Last weekend, I was out from 8pm Friday to 4am Monday, and roughly located a Merlin nest near where I camped, but still have to find it. Found a somewhat active looking perch and staked it out, but nothing showed up. Weekend before that, I found a huge eagle nest that I still have to go back to once the young are being fed. Not worth it at the moment. Week before that, was out for 24 hrs but got nothing but a tan.

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I found this old photo swiping on my instagram. I like it.
>>
>>3307722
Nice! I guess if I had the chance I'd spend my weekends camping and going on adventures but alas I'm poor AF at the moment.
>>
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Proud of this one.
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>>3307881

Looks very windy.

Just a Chipmunk, from today.

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>>3308391

Northern Flicker, from today as well.

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>>3308395

Got nice and close.

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>>3307323

Honestly I think there is definitely an issue with that exact combo. I can wiggle the lens on the mount about 1/8", you can hear an audible *thunk* when it rotates flush with one side.
It also seems the VC will only kick in about 75% of the time unless it's solidly rotated one way or the other.
I know a bunch of locals with the same lens, but different bodies, and there's almost no discernible play on the mounting.
I think the 70d in general isn't the best match for the "Tammy" as the old folks in my birding group call it. The 80d would be much better IMO.
Or, I just got a shitty body.
I'd like to buy a gen2 and sell my gen1, but I've gotten so used to it's quirks that I rarely miss a shot nowadays.
>>
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I have a very active backyard...deer, raccoons, rare birds, squirrels, chipmunks, possum, foxes.

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I think I overdid the sharpening in this one again, it was from a couple years ago.
At least I still have the raws.

>Indigo Bunting with a male Rose Breasted Grosbeak.

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>>3308507
Third party lenses often have the mounts outside of tolerance. Just send it in to get it fixed/replaced, warranty should cover it.
My Sigma had the same issue, except it had no impact on its performance so I left it as is.
>>
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>>3308695
>>3308688
How old are these two?
>>
>>3308736

2011 and 2014, I think.
>>
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>bamp

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I go to a pond during my breaks, got this one sitting there.

It threw up a couple times before this photo. Never seen a GB Heron vomit before...

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>>3309755
I thought birds couldn't throw up, mama told me that's the reason my pet chicken died...mama why?
>>
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>>3309758
If it's not vomiting then I have NO idea what it is doing.

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>>
>>3309759
Jesus that looks weird AF. It reminds me of the crazy eyed Shin Gojira.
>>
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Posting!

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>>3310051

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>>3310052
And done. Love this one, mama, papa and baby bird on one of his first flights.

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>>3310051

Nice and smooth.

Just a squirrel from today, but I liked where he was sitting.

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>>3310187

And a fox... been a few months since I've see one, and 2 years since seeing one in this spot. Been probably 3 years since I got this close to one, too. Found him sleeping, and crept up on him. Got within 25 feet.

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Local wetlands park near me.
>>


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>>
Got a gator with a snack, sadly only had the 16mm-50mm kit lens so far on the A6000.

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>>
>>3310204
...is that a human hand?
>>
>>3310205
Lol snatched a water bird that got too close
>>
>>3310210
Those are called "fish"
>>
>>3310217

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>>3310188

Closest I got before he spotted me.

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I like animals and animal photos but once I'm over the initial "wow, he got so close to the bird!" there's really not anything very interesting about these.
>>
>>3310515
You may be in the wrong thread then boyo
>>
>>3310516
I looked at the photos and posted my opinion of them. I did it without resorting to childish insults or making making absolute statements.
What about you?
>>
>>3310515
I mean that's like your opinion man, but I have to disagree, particularly about ambush (god fucking damn me, not M8 U Five-High)

The animals themselves are interesting subjects but he captures them doing stuff, hunting, eating, fishing. To me that adds value to the photo.
>>
>>3310515

Valid opinion, but personal preference isn't much of a critique.

>>3310523

Thanks. I actually avoid posting action shots though. I take plenty of them, but for posting here (a photography board) I prefer the challenge of finding some composition, be it rule of thirds or whatever:

Golden ratio >>3305651
Symmetry >>3305850
Diagonals >>3308688 >>3308391
I take note of nice backgrounds and check them regularly for subjects >>3308695
Natural framing, and he was back lit by the gap in the trees >>3310187

Even just planning, such as >>3310188 where I took 10 minutes to position myself close and low down, so the crest of the hill separated him from the background more (the tops of the trees are farther away than the grass behind him, giving more depth). It added so much more to the shot than if I had just approached directly. Definitely worth the risk of losing the shot.
>>
>>3310531
Every reply you get is a personal opinion. You just don't like the ones that are critical of your snaps.
You get the animals in frame and focus and expose properly. What else is there to say about these?
>>
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>>3310533

>what else is there to say about these

Not every shot has to tell a story, Anon. If you don't find them aesthetically pleasing, there's not much left for you.

>get the animals in frame

This applies to every other photo ever taken; you must get your subject in the frame. Also, give it a try sometime with wild animals, especially skittish ones. There is a lot more to it. I'll just take your snark as an opportunity to tell a story, which I always document with test shots / ID shots as I go:

For the fox photo from yesterday, a lot of work was put in. I waited all day until dusk, when I saw 3 deer on the other side of a clearing, about 200 feet away. I slowly started approaching them when I saw the fox sleeping on a boulder to my right, at the bottom of a hill. Fox is better than deer, so I switched subjects. It wasn't a very good shot for the fox (bad background and lighting) so I used the deer to get him to move.

I headed down the hill toward the fox, moving only while the wind was blowing to cover my sound. It took about 5 minutes to get into a position where I felt I had some options. Then I threw a rock toward the deer, causing them to look over. I then waved, and they snorted and ran off about 200 feet, standing there staring at me. The fox heard this and got spooked from the boulder, running uphill into the sunlight (they always retread to high ground) and stared at the deer for a while. Eventually, he settled down on the spot, which was much more photogenic than the boulder was. I waited another 5 minutes until he fell asleep again, and until the lighting got even better, then spent the next 10 minutes skirting around him to get a nice background instead of that brush immediately behind him.

It's not just a matter of point-and-shoot for me. I try to get the best results that I can achieve, and have a lot of fun doing it. It's very rewarding.

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>>3310550
Oh, fuck off. Nobody gives a shit about your snapshits or how you "achieve" them.
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>>3310550
I'm not reading all that. This isn't /lit/
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>>3310557

I appreciate your interest.

Once I got in position, I threw a rock off to his left to wake him up and get some shots of him looking toward his tail (makes for better framing) and got 4 shots before he looked at me. About 2 seconds after >>3310509 was taken, he was gone.

I used a similar technique for this shot >>3305592 a few years ago, except there were no deer. I just threw a rock to get him to look toward his tail.

For >>3308695 he was sleeping in a spot I'd been hoping to see something for a long time. It was just a matter of getting closer and higher up without waking him, and then waiting for the sun to get low enough to get the nice lighting before throwing a rock to his left to wake him up.

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>>3310565

TL;DR: Risk losing a dozen snapshots to get a good one, every time. Also, if you have ADD you can just look at the image sequence to understand.
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>>3310531
>>3310550
>>3310566
>actual responses
>actual information
>on /p/
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>>3310509
Personally I'd put a tinny bit of green more into the final crop, but that's it. It's great shot, I'm not getting as close to deer, so in no position to be picky. It's not something autists will understand.

>>3310565
Should be able to read that in half a minute, if you're not able to, quarantine yourself to lit for quarter of a year.

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>>3310572

Thanks. I agree about it needing more green (in the bottom left) but there was too much shit in the foreground, and it would have messed with my contrast to have it in frame. I had to crouch a bit higher to get over it.

It's a shame the deer is in shadow. Did you get any when it was a few feet back, in the light?
>>
I've never seen animals in the wild :/
>>
>>3310577

Try going out at dusk. Also, don't wear any strong scents. Bring a book too, because it can get boring.
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>>3310565
Way to cop out on a debate
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>>3310591
OK, I skimmed it.
Looks like he just talks about all the work he did. Why should I give a shit if it doesn't show in the photo?
>>
>>3310593

>he just talks about all the work he did. Why should I give a shit if it doesn't show in the photo?

I already said that not every shot has to tell a story (certainly not the story of how it was taken) and that aesthetics and nature are the point of my shots, not stories. Me talking about the work that went into it was a direct response to this comment by you:

>You get the animals in frame and focus and expose properly

If you don't want to have discussions, don't start them. I was just pointing out how you were oversimplifying.
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>>3310597
>If you don't want to have discussions, don't start them
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>>3310573
Have her running away, and stopping a little further, but closer shots are all in shadows. It's on macro lens as I was shooting fireflies and mushrooms, so quite happy with what I have.

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>>3310566
>>3310550
>>3310531
This much autism was supposed to be encountered only on /b ...
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>>3310647
/p/ is just the upside down /b/
>>
>>3310647
>>3310651
samefag
>>
>>3310654
Newfag
>>
>>3310644

Those are some big trees. Where are you?

>>3310647

>planning is autistic

This is how you end up with snapshits.
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>>3305658
This one is just amazing.
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>>3310666

Cheers, Anon. It's rare that the lighting is right for me to get shots of ravens.

>cue samefag accusations
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>>3309046

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>>3310523
>M8 U Five-High
This is all I can read now.
>>
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Vorefags get out.

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Got this today. It's been 5 years since I saw one... felt awesome to be around one again.

Lighting was shit and the only way to frame was to shoot vertical, but I'll take it.

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Earlier in the day.

Saw a male Harrier catch a vole too, but it was too far away to get anything.

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>>3312251

It had at least 2 young with it.

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Found a dehydrated Wood Turtle (endangered species) nowhere near a water source. Gave her some water and food for a day, then let her go at the closest spot where I know some are.
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>>3309759
>>3309755
>>3310204
>>3310220
>>3311366
>>3308509
>>3308508
>>3307772
>>3306112
>>3306109
>>3305978

>all these zoo snaps
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>>3313051

Oh, you're back. Welcome!

>maybe if I post right after Ambush, people will think he's me

Here's another one for you... wild animal, in captivity. In her box, just before letting her go. They are the nicest looking turtles if you ask me. I've found Painted and Snappers too, but they aren't as pretty. These guys have awesome eyes.

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>>3313051
Bitch what kind of zoo has a canyon with a river??
>>3307772
Either enjoy the animals or kindly sod off.

>>3313053
What kind of turt ambush? Here in northern Mexico we have mainly the Texas desert turtle, they look cool with their black eyes and all.

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>>3313060

Cool, doubt I'll ever get to see one. I'm not really into taking photos of reptiles anyway. I find a turtle or snake every now and then and don't bother much beyond the odd cell phone snap. There are a few birds down your way I'd love to see one day though.

It's a Wood Turtle >>3313050
>>
>>3313060
Animal sanctuaries are ZOOS. Backyard birdfeeders are ZOOS. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
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Borb.

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>>3313097
you're wrong. It's not a 'borb' it's a 'long boi'
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>>3313103

Confirmed for long boi.

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The only nice things about this are 1. I love these Purple Martins and host them every year 2. I got it using a manual focus lens

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>>3305570
Delete your account.
>>
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>>3313961

Delete your life.

It's cool how when you get level with a bird gliding, you can see the low pressure zone above the wings.

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>>3314040
Fun fact, the feathers angling upwards in such a high-alpha state makes the airflow stick closer to the feathers and keeps it from separating and causing a stall.
The feathers on the wingtips also angle into a winglet keeping wingtip vortices smaller and the glide more efficient. This also ensures the wind noise is low over the wings.
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>>3313914
That is a damn good shot right there. Congratties.
>>
>>3313914
At first I thought it was dead lying on a table
>>
There's å few I took the other day. What does /p/ think?

1/3
>>
>>3314262
2/3
>>
>>3314263
3/3
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>>3314263
If only you could move a little to the right to get the bush out of the furry birds face it would be a great shot. Also focus is on the bush.

>>3314262
Looks like it's delicious

>>3314264
Crop in some more for a more serious composition for the serious deer




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