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/pol/ - Politically Incorrect



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When did people stop wanting to hear divergent views? I'm 50 years old, and I remember a time when I used to have discussions with people who held very different views, and we were genuinely interested in each other's perspectives. Now, people have all retreated into echo chambers where they are never exposed to views different from their own, and when an outsider appears they either savagely attack or actively shun that person.

It's become so bad that I've become a hermit, hardly ever leaving the house. The very idea of discussion has vanished, replaced by non-stop vapid chit-chat with no content or meaning. In fact, I find myself treated like an absolute lunatic for even talking about stuff like this, as if the world has *always* been like this when I know for a fucking certainty that it hasn't.

Prediction: This comment will be completely ignored in favour of comments which allow the loyal tribes of specific ideologies to mindlessly re-re-re-repost their opinions to the applause of their echo chamber.
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>>171833463
IT'S YOUR FAULT, BOOMER
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>>171833691
I'm not a boomer, I'm gen-x. But thanks for demonstrating the immediate instinct to circle the wagons and otherize the scary intruder.
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>>171833463
It's the Clinton divide. One side said the economy was great, the other said we had a rapist in the White House. Both were right, and the differences were irreconcilable.

Clinton "proved" that "character no longer mattered", and that as long as the economy is roaring, a certain percentage of the population will tolerate any behavior, even defending a disgraced and disbarred attorney held in contempt of court, impeached, with very strong allegations of brutal, physical rape against him.
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>>171833463
>that 50 year old boomer who posts on 4chan
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>>171833691
He's not a fucking boomer, you idiot. He's Gen X, as I am. Born in the early 60's to the late 70's.

You kids are so fucked up that you don't even know how fucked up you are.
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>>171833889
lmfao this
>>171833925
>You kids are so fucked up that you don't even know how fucked up you are.
This is a brutally ironic statement.
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>>171834001
Not only lost, but the lot of you don't even own compasses.
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>>171833463
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The youngest "boomer" is 53 years old, you fucking faggots. I wish "boomer" was censored like s0yb0y was.
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>>171833463
Whenever I'm out with friends who are liberals I almost always bring up politics. They don't talk to me any more because I always win the arguments
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>>171833925
>you kids
Being an oldfag must be a pathetic existence, knowing full well that you didn't do anything to change the path we are currently on.
Keep whining about anyone who isn't an oldfag, because clearly the 80s nostalgia is the only thing you cling to.
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>>171833925
So is he a boomer or not? Just give me a straight answer.
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>>171833925
Hmmm, I wonder why everything went to shit after the 50's.

THANKS, GEN-X.
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>>171834001
You're clearly not interested in discussion. You haven't even bothered to address the meat of my original post. All you're doing is using it as a springboard to make comfortable mouth noises while trying to "score points" on an imaginary scoreboard. This is exactly what I was trying to point out. WHY? Why aren't you interested in anything but your narcissistic little circle-jerk of self-reinforcing chatter?
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>>171833463

The left turned everything to nothing and was only left with power.

Not even kidding the entire post modern thing has turned into all values are nothing and the only thing that matters is power. Identity politics pc culture all this shit is just an attempt to control. Everything must serve that control and anything that doesn't serve must be destroyed.

Even the issues themselves must serve or they turn into enemies. The left honestly needs to burn and be reborn. I thought liberals would do it after Trump one but everyone is just sitting on the side lines watching shit get worse.
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>>171834292
I'm interested in a discussion.
My views can be summed with this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEyNNCn9Z5M
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>>171834292
People don't have serious discussion on /pol/, go check out /lit/ or /his/
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>>171833463
>I'm 50 years old on 4chan
Holy shit, that's fucking sad.
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>>171834210
I've spent my life as a community organizer and radical unionist, I've been covered by the media more or less non-stop for more than two decades, and I'm notable enough that there's a Wikipedia article about me. I've been peppersprayed, pepperballed, peppergassed, teargassed, watercannoned, soundcannoned, bitten by dogs, trampled by horses, beaten with truncheons, arrested, sued, imprisoned, maligned by the media who have called me everything from deranged to an extortionist, and spent the last four years of my life along with every penny I ever saved to construct a community centre for outcasts. I think I've done my part to "change the path."
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tfw revolution is coming
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>>171833691
the left simply can not meme
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>>171833463
because ideas have consequences now
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>>171833463
ITS THOSE FUCKING BOOMER SHILLS THAT KEEP RUINING THIS COUNTRY
Reddit has a shitty upvote system, so you pretty much have to censor yourself if you make a good point against popular opinion.
4chan is more about seeing who can be the most hateful with no basis in reality or even reading comments, creating a knee jerk reaction idea. Looking for those pearls in a sea of shit and piss

Society is sick and needs to fixed, or we'll end up in concentration camps soon enough.

Though I prefer 4chan because I can say whatever without some shitty vote system. Though the attention seekers are the shitty part of 4chan. Almost like gold fish
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>>171833463
I think it's the post-WW2 mind control pushed in the K-12, which itself was a mind control tool from the beginning, schools and media. After WW2 the government went crazy with education. They implemented more and more social functions into schools to imitate religion. The 60's began much of the switch over to behavior conditioning focused "schools." I've read a lot on this and my sources are all over the place, but I' telling you the world changed after WW2. The big fish(America, Russia, China) started learning from each other's mind control techniques. The modern society is the result of a mass veil being pulled over the plebs heads.

Read this(there's also a free audio book version) for quick rundown. Modern people are trained and bred to police each other's behavior and enforce top down social norms.
https://archive.org/details/TheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanEducation_758

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP98ZKt709A This is a breakdown of the conformity inducing functions of schooling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr-aEtJVVdk Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt served as the head of policy at the Department of Education during the first administration of Ronald Reagan. Exclusive interview with Iserbyt breaks down how conditioning/training under a corporate agenda has replaced traditional education, leading to a deliberate dumbing down of Americans. Iserbyt further explains how Reagan signed agreements merging the U.S. and Soviet systems under the United Nations banner, turning over education and many other areas of public policy to global control.
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>>171834818
You sound like a manchild who never grew up
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>>171834292
This is /pol/ old man. It's the concentration camp for the retards of 4chan.

Logical discussion cant be found here.
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>>171833463
>I'm 50 years old, and I remember a time when I used to have discussions with people who held very different views, and we were genuinely interested in each other's perspectives.
Italy is still like this
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>>171835053
I take that as high praise. Most people think I'm in my early 30s because rebellion keeps me young. "Growing up" is an ironic phrase, because it makes the precise point where you *stop* growing. I hope I remain an angry and outraged teenager until I'm wrinkled and grey. Mother Jones was still facing down riot cops and company goons into her 90s.
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>>171833463
>I know for a fucking certainty
So, you know it as a certainty, huh. I'd love to see the studies you conducted in regards to this idea, where does the data come from? I'm sure that someone who enjoys proper discussion liek yourself wouldn't make such a bold claim without strong evidence to support it.
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>>171833463
>>171834818

I'm 50 years old too, and I deplore people like you. My dad is like that. Your "views" never changed the world.
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>>171834554
You have no idea what "left" and "right" mean. I'm guessing you're also unaware that they're also not synonymous with liberal and conservative. Like most Amerikans, your conceptions of political science are based on utterly topsy-turvy definitions which invert the actual meanings; for example, I am a mutualist, which makes me slightly right of centre, but I doubt there's anyone here who'd think I'm anything but a "radical leftist" because I'm an anarchist.
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>>171833463
'Echo chambers' are driven by the positive aspects of in-group bias more than negative. Whilst it was previously believed it was phenomenon like cognitive dissonance it is actually more likely self-affirmation, and an innate drive for confirmation bias, which has led to the creation of echo chamber and filter bubbles.

People try to pass off the blame to social media algorithms and new forms of tribalism as if these psychological processes aren't implicit. The best way to break an echo chamber is to avoid source bias. People will day in, day out, directly access information from sources they know to be biased. Whether thats Breitbart, CNN, the Guardian, or Fox.

Echo chambers are entirely voluntery creations, and actually very easy to break.

(Krasodomski-Jones, 2016), (Garrett, 2009), (Quattrociocchi, Scala, and Sunstein, 2016), (Barbera et al, 2015).
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>>171833463
well once I learned that marxists come in two shapes, liar and idiot, and that they are either deluded fools who can't be trusted to make decisions or who will lie to you abpout incrementalism (dont hate gays/bake the cake/say the pronoun/children can consent) it then became a matter of self preservation.

Compromise a little bit at a time until you are left with nothing because their indignation always starts anew and the goal post must be moved further....or just kill them and be done because killing you is their ultimate end game goal anyway. But they can't do it, they have to convince you to kill yourself.

No, nothing to discuss, stop being a commie or die.
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>>171835727
Anarchy is a meme
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>>171835444
I know for a fucking certainty because I WAS THERE, brainiac. I lived through a time when people behaved differently. Young people have no conception of how different the world used to be before the Internet, cellphones, social media, and newspaper consolidation. In some ways the world was much less progressive -- casual racism, normalized sexism and homophobia -- but people also routinely hitch-hiked and gave people lifts, left their doors unlocked, and allowed their children to roam freely wherever they pleased with no supervision.

There was also genuine interest in listening to other people's points of view, even when you didn't agree with them. People were *interested* in things. They had a hunger to understand. People, by and large, didn't lock themselves into echo chambers and do everything in their power to force out divergent opinions.
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>>171833463
Politics has become so divided that people of opposing views can't even understand the very base of the other side anymore. So how can you listen to someone if you think the very core of their ideology is fucking shit?

Also that anon is right, the incredible egoism of the boomers mirrored down to their few children and now we have a world consisting or arrogance and self-righteousness. This is what happens when you believe you own the whole world and the world starts to collapse, you blame it for your own actions
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>>171833463
You were different, but of the same nation. That's not so anymore. Even many whites are not american, but citizens of a global progressive movement.
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>>171836089
oh no anon it is reality...you are in it right now, it is the void of space upon which your ship of government sails...even if Hitler or Stalin themselves govern you this moment, you still have no ruler but yourself...you can choose to disobey or comply.

You literally cannot escape the fact that so long as you retain agency at all in the slightest it is you who decides what actions you will take regardless of consequence.

The devil himself could order you upon pain of eternal torment to eat a turd...he can physically force you to do it...but he cannot force you to want to and decide to do it.
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>>171835727
Ok, so lets talk about anarchism. I don't think a society can function without a leader, hierarchy and a chain of command. People are naturally built to obey orders from people that they view as their superiors. I think milgram experiment demonstrates that pretty well.
Here's some food for thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfdRYVCXluc
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>>171833463
Millenials ruined it all.
>Disclosure: I'm a millenial, and I fucking hate my lazy, degenerate, borderline legally mentally-retarded generation
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>>171835343
>that boomer who's still in his edgy phase
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>>171836053
This isn't a new phenomenon, though. Have you read Postman's _Amusing Ourselves to Death_? He was utterly prescient in his alarm at the Internet and what it was doing to our culture, but he describes in detail the descent into the post-literate, anti-intellectual dark age which is upon us, pointing out that literacy in the US peaked in the 18th century and has declined every century since.

Social media may not be wholly to blame, but it provides a feedback loop which has caused the slide into narcissistic self-absorption to turn from a gradual decline into a wild toboggan ride to the bottom.
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>>171836526
then how did society form from the beginnings marked by a lack of such i wonder...
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>>171836232
Well, people move on. They don't sit around and think the same way forever.
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>>171834818
>cries victim
>b-b-but I done muh part
>wah.jpeg
Seriously, it's like you faggots have no self awareness. If you think acting like a dumbass moth to the flames is a good idea, no wonder your generation is a complete and total failure that is trying to blame millions of kids who weren't even alive when you made your dumbass conclusions about the world. Talking to anyone Gen-X and older is like talking to a goddamned fucking muppet. Ooh yeah, awesome sacrifice gramps. You're complaining about shit that Johnny Knoxville did for our entertainment. Quit being a little bitch. That goes out to the rest of the oldfags ITT as well.
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>>171836470
>"M-muh free will"
Yes, everyone at all times act without the influence of outside sources, from their free will alone
Lets just disregard human instincts of: Survival, desire to fit in and identify with other humans.
If you genuinly believe what you just wrote, you are retarded.
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>>171834818
>I've been peppersprayed, pepperballed, peppergassed, teargassed, watercannoned, soundcannoned, bitten by dogs, trampled by horses, beaten with truncheons, arrested, sued, imprisoned


And people ignore you when you try to spout your shitty Marxist politics. Perhaps the common theme here isn't everyone else you ever run into.

I'm guessing your tribe has been kicked out of 109 countries already and you can't figure out why that happens either.
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>>171836628
Nice try, oldfag. Literally no millenial thinks this, unless they've been brainwashed into being a premature oldfag. Shit's not even logical. Did someone touch you, anon?
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>>171834818
Narcissism much?
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>>171836526
The nature of Man is anarchist. For 200,000 years, our species was anarchist. To this day, most stone age communities are anarchist, such as the highland Yanomani, where there is a tribal council of elders, but they hold no formal authority and their advice it purely voluntary -- followed largely because it's good advice.

You saw the same thing among tribes like the Cossacks, where they had a hetman, but he had to rule through consensus in practice because anyone who got angry enough was free to separate him from his head with a cavalry sabre and take his place.
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>>171836938
and what of any of that you listed precludes your free will...you may want to fit in with fart sniffers but are you so weak that you are compelled w/o choice to bury your face in someones ass crack and inhale?

i'll be your retard, your wonderfully surprising defiant little retard. now i know it is illegal and all and i won't fit in but here, have a pipe bomb, chocked full of nails, gonna make my voice heard...see?

survival desire etc...meant fuck all did it.
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>>171836823
also this. If you whine about something, you deserve no respect
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>>171836961
I'm a mutualist, you bright, bright little boy. you. That puts me *right* of centre. But then, I suspect that political science is just one of many things of which you have neither knowledge nor interest.
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>>171833463
>When did people stop wanting to hear divergent views? I
When leftism subverted the society.
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>>171836938
>desire to fit in
Am I the only one who doesn't have the desire?
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>>171837611
>cannot do the thing because they will prison you

or is it

>can do the thing but they will imprison you
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>>171834818
>I've been peppersprayed, pepperballed, peppergassed, teargassed, watercannoned, soundcannoned, bitten by dogs, trampled by horses, beaten with truncheons, arrested, sued, imprisoned, maligned by the media who have called me everything from deranged to an extortionist
not enough yet, it would seem
and that's because the only good commie is a dead commie
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>>171837773
The second one
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>>171837483
>you bright, bright little boy you
wow can you be any more of a faggot?
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Utterly no insight or self-awareness. At least two-thirds of the comments in this thread come from blind, ignorant, self-absorbed narcissists who are doing EXACTLY what I described in the OP and attempting to "score points" rather than engage in any kind of discussion, completely ignoring anything which challenges their world-view, blithely indifferent to the fact that they're proving the very point they're ostensibly arguing against.

It's depressing as fuck.
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>>171837207
Why don't you go live among that tribe, then?

Why is it that anarchists are, throughout history, completely BTFO by communists and fascists?
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>>171838080
>discussion
You ignored all the comments pertaining to your whining blog post. You clearly are having trouble accepting your gayness. Quit being in denial.
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>>171834292
Fuck off old man it's time to go back to the home... senile fuck
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>>171838080
In all fairness you have set up an unfalsifiable viewpoint. Either they agree with you, or they disagree and 'prove your point'.

Look at Sharif's study on the autokinetic effect, Asch's paradigm, or Milgram's obedience. All studies performed long before the advent of the internet and yet show powerful effects of social conformity. If anything research has shown decreasing levels of conformity in society since these experiments so your anecdotal evidence of everyone wanting to ignore you doesn't represent any societal trends.
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>>171838197
Why is it that authoritarian jerkwads are completely ignorant of history, sociology, and psychology, even while they're pontificating broad, sweeping generalizations about politics they're too stupid to understand?

Pro tip: Every time anarchists have organized as a military force, they've won on the battlefield, from the Makhnovshchina to the Durruti Column. It's always been through betrayal in the halls of power and the assassin's bullet that they've been brought down.
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>>171838080
>attempting to score points
This isn't reddit.
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>>171834818
>I got in fight with riot cops and broke many windows, I help fighting the system by giving a bad name to radical opposition.
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>>171836696
>society started from a lack of leadership
Every single animal that forms social units has a leading member, whether this leading member is the alpha female in an elephant herd, or the strongest male within apes.
>>171837207
It is true that society was more egalitarian before specialization, but we need to recognize that that was in part due to the fact that these tribes were smaller and it's members were more closely related. Here's a thought experiment: your sister and some other girl are about to be hit by a truck. You would go save your sister, instead of the other girl, right? If you said yes, then this demostrates my point: because you are more closely related to sibling, from evolutionary perspective, it's better that you help the sibling rather than a stranger. Altruistic behavior is more easily expressed if the ingroup is closely related. Here's an another example of that: you love your family more than you love your ethnicity, right? And you also care more about ethnicity than you do about your race, right?

So, how did this anarchical, voluntary state of our societies came to an end? Simply put, it was out-competed by societies that had hierarchy, leadership and were more ethnocentric. Here's a study on how ethnocentric is dominant from the evolutionary perspective:
http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html
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>>171838551
Haem. Franco won the civil war and the Maknovcha got assraped.
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>>171838080
>utterly no insight or self-awareness
I find that oldfags are like this, except they project all their stupidity out onto the world, so they see and judge it in others, yet they can't see it in themselves, as they lack any introspection whatsoever. Fascinating.
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>>171837207
We've evolved a lot in the last couple thousand years, who cares what people were doing 200k years ago? Not that they were anarchist anyway, they still had hierarchies and held territory.
I'm not the same as whoever the Yanomani people are, I don't want to be. I don't have any desire to live like them, they aren't living very good lives from what I can tell from what I just read on wikipedia, they might be doing better for themselves if they had leaders, maybe they wouldn't still be living in huts.

Does this sound very mutual?
>Burning with a branding stick occurs often, and symbolizes a male’s strength or dominance over his wife
>Up to half of all of Yanomami males die violent deaths in the constant conflict between neighboring communities over local resources
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>>171837207
I believe this affirmation require a validation.

We are social animals and all social animals have hierarchies.
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>>171833463
You sound like you're a newfag, but you just miss the cutoff to be a boomer, so I won't post scat.
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>>171838551
The anarchists in Paris, Ukraine, and Catalonia were all crushed militarily. An anarchist state has a strong potential for life satisfaction but you must admit they're terrible at organising resources efficiently.
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>>171838476
Unfalsifiability is also a characteristic of being right from the purely logical, rationalist perspective. All true statements are tautological, though of course that doesn't mean all tautologies are true. And as many psych experiments demonstrate conformity, you'll also find many more experiments among the higher primates which show compassion, social justice, and empathy are the norm; monkeys and apes, for example, will "go on strike" and refuse to perform tasks for food rewards if they observe that some are receiving better rewards than others for the same tasks.
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>>171833463
Because leftists are using identity politics to the point where any opinion that counters them or challenges them is inherently evil. You can see this across the western world broadly, especially in universities, media, and some governments. It's all rooted in core assumptions about the opposition, and anything that doesn't seem to line up exactly is just someone pulling a fast one.

>>171838080
Oh no, someone doesn't agree with your opinion. They must clearly be without insight. Look, I'm not saying you're a nigger, but you're probably a nigger.
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>>171838080
Should probably off yourself then, end your sad existence
Boomer faggot.
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>>171838937
The commune of Paris was not anarchist. Don't listen to the lies of the far left.
It was an insurrection made against the occupant and the government had to kill them all to not have an even more violent occupation.
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>>171833463
Because people realized that the only that matters at the end of the day is violence and "tolerant speech" does not exist because inevitably one will be drawn to action for their ideas and if they aren't then why bother having ideas in the first place
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>>171833463
When people started getting taught that they're special individuals and that their individual feels and problems were the most important thingin the world.
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Shouldn't you be on facebook?
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>>171839084
The only problem with your thesis is that you refuse to accept when you are the one being illogical and irrational. Then you whine about the tiniest little sacrifice. Fuck off.
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>>171835343
You are part of the system, helping the elites with fake divisive struggles that destroy national identity and strengthen superficial desires in people. Being a professional leftie is nothing to be proud of.
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>>171838080
A lot of people fought and died so Americans could lead comfortable, and free lives. If we want to be blissfully ignorant, I believe we as a society have earned it. We were at the forefronts against Russia during the Cold War, and I daresay we saw the same amount of dangers as the Warsaw Pact states saw during and after the conflict. It is natural to misunderstand where Americans are coming from, as very few people can boast the same safety and security that we can. If you could get away with saying anything you wanted without fear of reprisal, wouldn't you? If you actually had a homeland to be proud of, wouldn't you hold just as much pride as we do? Again, try to understand that the US is like the Daddy for the whole world. We can't stand by for people talking out of their backside, sometimes we need to handle things ourselves. I hope this helped.
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>>171834818

I'm 49.

how did you come to 4chan?

In my case, i washed up on /b/ after a decade or more trolling web 1.0 via 56k dial up, and the anon. factor of the chan seems like the last bastion of the days when anonymous was the default setting for the whole web.
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>>171833463
OP, all you do here is to call others ignorants and stupid and to say you have a flawless logic and are admirable, without obviously explaining your logic.

Maybe you are new to the internet, but even you should understand how childish it sound.
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>>171839084
>>171838551
>>171838080
>>171837483
>>171837207
>>171836691
>>171836232
>>171835727
>>171835343
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>>171839084
Primates also show a complete inability at long term cooperative behviours. Chimpanzees are easily trained to work in groups for a common goal but will fight over the presented rewards and resort back to a hierarchical structure. Humans are uniquely altruistic in this sense, as there is an innate drive for social justice in babies as young as 3 months. However, crucially this altruism only extends to the percieved in-group. Differences as arbritrary as someone showing a different food preference than yourself have shown a desire to punish the out-group and view this as moral.

In-groups and out-groups are inate aspects of our psychology and as such an anarchist society which extends beyond kinship groups (a human typically has a limit of 400 people they can maintain as family/friends) they system collapses.

Anarcho-primitivism is the most realisitc form of anarchy because the system does not work in settlements levels above a village, ruling out the possibility for urbanisation or specialisiation.
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>>171838651
>>171837207
And you still have to address the milgram experiment. The participants of this experiment thought that they were electrocuting actual people, yet they still did it, because the supposed scientist (the person that in this case was perceived as the superior) told them to continue on.
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>>171838651
I don't think you understand that there's a difference between leadership and rulership. I am not a Bakuninist; Bakunin argued that all communities must be agrarian, because anyone who is allowed to practice a skill no one else has can hold the community to ransom. I am a mutualist, and one of the central tenets of mutualism is a community-run, non-profit bank to track labour credit and to provide low-interest loans for small entrepreneurial start-ups so that everyone has access to the capital necessary to compete.

And the reason authoritarianism sprang up was a direct result of the switch from hunter-gatherer to agrarian society. Once you create "property," you need a warrior caste to protect it, and so you begin an escalating contest to see who can organize violence most efficiently. But of course, this relies on scarcity. This is why the capitalists have been forced to keep creating artificial scarcity to maintain their authoritarian stranglehold on power.

The Singularity will free us all eventually, and the power of the patriarchy will evaporate almost instantly.
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>>171840035
also this
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>>171839812
Shit, an originalfag. I tough I was old but everyone here is 40+
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>>171833463
Low IQ people just like to form tribal identities around their shitty political ideologies.
It's the most pathetic thing I've ever seen.
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>>171840140
>Implying the singularity won't cause an even deeper class divide as the upper-class become genetically altered Demigods.
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>>171838693
Franco got his ass kicked by untrained miners and railroad workers armed mostly with shotguns and hunting rifles -- repeatedly -- despite receiving air support from Hitler and naval support from Mussolini. The only reason Durruti's Column was defeated was because the pro-fascist forces in the West cut off workers trying to get to Spain to reinforce them, and because the Stalinists assassinated Durruti.

As for the Makhnovshchina, despite the fact they had only 50,000 men at their largest and had only what equipment they could capture from the enemy, they drove 600,000 trained German soldiers out of Ukraine, then crushed the Czarists as they marched on Moscow -- only to be betrayed by Trotsky and be ordered to disarm and surrender to the Reds.

Even after the Soviets invaded with *millions* of soldiers, it still took them four years to drive out the Makhnovshchina, and they were never able to capture or kill Makhno himself, who fled to France in the hope of raising another army. Stalin murdered TEN MILLION Ukrainians out of terror that Makhno might return and kick his ass.
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>>171833463
>When did people stop wanting to hear divergent views?

Social media ruined our brains and how we relate to differing opinions.
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>>171840140
LARP harder faggot
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>>171840123
funny fact about that experiment, subjects chose to either shock or not shock victims...even with their leader/alpha etc telling them to, they could choose not to. the weak of course would follow even if such crossed their own personal internal ethical lines.
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>>171834292
The answer lies here in this lads reply, you can't converse with idiots.
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>>171838793
You're referring to the lowland Yanomani, who are an entirely different people. The highland Yanomani are forced to cooperate with each other because they live in a difficult environment where the threat of starvation is ever-present. They aren't a Utopia by any means -- kidnapping and ritual rape is how they generally resolve disputes -- but they do not engage in warfare, and their communities are run by anarchist consensus.
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>>171840391
>don't fight back white people, just keep being individuals and accept death, you don't want to be low-IQ now, do you?
The guy in the pic you posted is not a tribalist, btw, he's an individualist cuckservative like you.
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>>171833463
Die Leute können in der westlichen Welt nicht offen Reden
Wenn man Gesetze zur Beschneidung der Redefreiheit hat (Hassrede/Wiederbetätigung) und die Meinungsfreiheiz letztendlich nur eine Illusion ist, dann macht eine Diskussion auch keinen Sinn
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>>171840234

time flies when you're having fun.
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>>171840140
>And the reason authoritarianism sprang up was a direct result of the switch from hunter-gatherer to agrarian society.
[citation required]

> Once you create "property," you need a warrior caste to protect it,
[citation required]
>and so you begin an escalating contest to see who can organize violence most efficiently.
[citation required]
>This is why the capitalists have been forced to keep creating artificial scarcity
[citation required]

However, hunter gatherer societies know the concept of private propriety. Try taking the food of someone else without asking and you will see what happen.

You speak like it's a bad thing that private propriety is defended, but while there is abuse inthe top of society, the concept is needed in the base of society.

Why hunt and gather if people who don't take your food? It would be best to sit and take the food of others.

Why till the soil if you can take the grain of someone else?
Why work iron if you can take the tools made by someone else?

Without private propriety, any group too big to not have very strong social link would just starve, have no clothes, homes or tools.
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>>171840140
Yea that is true. But these mutualistic societies were indeed out-competed. Returning back to these civilizations is returning to a primitive state of existence and stagnating. I do not like the idea of stagnation. I want my people to be thriving scholars and warriors. I do not wish that they would be out-competed by a more advanced civilization.
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>>171840140
>power of the patriarchy
Care to explain what it is?

>The Singularity
Autoreplicant robots with free will are not going to like unreflective biologicals and will probably kill us all.
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>>171840971
Having fun? On MY 4chan?
>>
People use social media for existential validation.

It's a fast paced and instantaneous delivery of dopamine to the brain.

It's all an addiction.
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>>171839812
I've been here since the beginning. I was an early adopter of the Internet; my first modem was a 110 baud teletype machine with an acoustic coupler. In fact, I was on the Internet before there was an Internet. I'd log onto the university's mainframe and telnet to military servers to chat with people there.

I used to hang out in /b/, where I wasn't even much of a rarity. In those days you could always refresh the front page and find two or three threads from talented storytellers with a yarn to spin about their interesting lives or amazing or funny things they'd experienced. It's been quite a few years since then, and I don't really come around here much any more. It's depressing to see what the stupids and Stormfags have made of this place since Anonymous got baleeted.
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>>171833819
definitely not an echo chambe he herd you and disagreed then gave an ad hominem attack inherently not an echo chamber
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>>171841343
you don't talk about anonymoos I'll send jason over to your house
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>>171833463
>When did people stop wanting to hear divergent views?
I would pin it on the advent of social media. Human beings love validation of their own views, always have, but in pre-internet times, most humans would be stuck with their local community and all the divergent views within it. Hence you would simply be forced to engage with divergent views just as a matter of participating in society. Social media, however, has made it piss easy to create yourself a cozy little filter bubble and let people only ever hear what they want to hear. Turns out that's really addictive and consequently people are slowly losing their tolerance to hear divergent views even back in meatspace.
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>>171841037
If people want to go and form their own isolated communes they are free to do so. In fact I'm p sure OP has done something like that. However, the majority of anarchists believe this isn't far enough and would sooner see the world burn and collapse into chaos so they could enforce their beliefs on others. This is why anarchism is typically a force of evil and stagnation.

History shows us that whenever radicals overthrough the hierarchy, the popular-will overthroughs them and restores it. 1848, 1871, 1920.
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>>171833463
Ok grandpa go watch tv
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>>171840035
There are plenty of non-authoritarian proposals for creating larger communities which retain the ability of the tribe to connect socially with all members. Just as an example, parecon proposes community councils to balance the requirements of the consumers with the needs of the syndicalist worker co-ops who provide the goods. As a mutualist, I support the use of community-run non-profit banks to provide access to capital to guarantee universal accessibility for the means of production. Throwing up your hands and saying, "Oh well, I guess we need to suffer under the lash of omnipotent, sociopathic oligarchs," is just an excuse to pardon authoritarianism.
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>>171833819
It began when people started to vilify otherwise normal human beings:
>If you are white, you are evil
>If you are male, you are evil
>If you are heterosexual, you are evil
>If you make X amount of money, you are evil
>If you own a business, you are evil
>If you own a home, you are evil
>If you vote Republican, you are evil
>If you don't support my opinions, you are evil
There are THOUSANDS of videos showing liberals screaming down any attempt to have a dialogue or to reason with them. They are not interested in talking. They want some notion of power that they cooked up in their minds.People got tired of trying to discuss things with them.
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>>171841758
>so they could enforce their beliefs on others.
Yeah, the LGBTQP+ vegan antigun activists would won a war between the black gangs, the cartels, the biker gangs and the militias, all while the rest of the word is supporting a side and sending troops to help.
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>>171841034
>[citation required]
Do you even Jared Diamond?
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>>171833463
Play Metal Gear Solid 2.
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>>171840934
Low IQ poster.
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>>171842130
I meant that in the context of historical uprisings. Besides, even if they have very little chance of victory a civil war/uprising has long lasting and terrible consequences.
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>>171841758
Yea, don't mind that, once the existence of our people is secured. But when your people are going extinct due to emigration and there are only 4 million of them left, you really should be more concerned with how you should preserve this people, instead of letting them be aimless drifters in the flow of time.
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>>171841878
What if I join, ask for some capital to open a thing and just leave?

What If I ask money to open a workshop, work lazy and when it fail I just ask for more money to open another trade?

If everyone can access the means of production, then who would produce the means of production?
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>>171841683
I'm inclined to agree with you. Neil Postman believed the same thing would happen and predicted it long before the rise of social media as a potent sociological driver. The problem is that telling people what they want to hear has always been an easy path to wealth and success, even while it weakens the community and damages the body politic. It's what they refer to as a perverse incentive.
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>>171842173
>Jared Diamond
Ho God. Don't say that name here.

The guy is the Alex Jones of the left.
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>>171834818
>Change the path
You didn't do anything except keep a laundry list of your supposed victimization, which reads more like your attempts to annoy others or break the law. If you think that is changing the path, you are severely mistaken.
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>>171833463

I'm 29, and I remember hearing all the adults around me having all sorts of cool discussions, and by the time I was a teenager it was gone.
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>>171841878
When I see this flag I think 'anarcho syndicalist'. Is that accurate in your case? Or would it be more accurate to call you a 'anarcho mutualist'? Is NAP part of your philosophy?
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>>171842499
I have argued with leftists before. They won't even say that you are wrong, they will just say that this matter should not be discussed at all and then want to talk about how great the would would be if their fictional utopia became true.
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Hey Hey guys i'm above partisan ship. Please validate me as smart. Also here's my age for some reason
brilliant thread
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>>171842173
Do you even know that Jared Diamond has no empirical basis for any of his claims? Fuck off you retard.
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>>171833463
I think people insulate themselves in their views because they have become intellectually lazy, and find it easier to just ignore all other opinions, not even bothering to try and understand other points of view. The world is hardly ever black and white, but it is much more comforting to think of the "other" side as "evil" and to dehumanize them, that way you don't even have to acknowledge their point of view. The people in power have used social networking data to figure out how to flawlessly divide and conquer us, and we allow ourselves to be manipulated like this, so that's pretty much where we are as a society now.
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>>171840140
You're a schizophrenic utopian idealist, fuck off.
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>>171842552
If you're genuinely interested, I encourage you to do some reading on how a mutualist community would operate, but you need to understand that mutualism relies on understanding the difference between ownership and property -- and that property is outlawed in a mutualist community.

If you possess a thing, and want it, and need it, and are using it, it's yours. You own it. It doesn't belong to the State or the People or the bank or a boss. But when you're done with it, it's no longer yours. You can built a house, live in it, and even sell it; but you can't rent it. You can plant an orchard and water it and pick the fruit and sell it; but you can't start renting the land out.

As for abuse of the bank, remember that it's still a bank. Loans need to be approved, and in this case loans qualification depends on the needs of the community. If you want to build a factory, the community might decide it doesn't need one and won't fund it. That doesn't mean you can't build a factory, only that the community won't give you the capital to do it. On the other hand, if the community desperately needs someone to dig latrines, they might give an interest-free loan to anyone wanting to buy shovels and hip-waders to start a latrine-digging business.
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>>171833463
What's the point of having a conversation when the conversation has already been had multiple times?

What's the point of having a discussion when the two opposing groups already know that they fundamentally disagree with each other?
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>>171834236
>So is he a boomer or not?

If he was born in 1964 or earlier, he's a boomer.
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>>171842868
It's 4chan who decided to slap me with an anarchosyndicalist flag because I picked "anarchist." I used to identify as an anarchosyndicalist once upon a time (and I'm still a card-carrying Wobbly), but 25 years of trying to get practical things done with a succession of reds, leftists, trots, tankies, and campus radicals has taught me that I have no interest in share-and-share-alike with a pack of lazy, disinterested shirkers whose main joy in life is pointing fingers at people, and who are always there when you need a fiery manifesto signed, but vanish like smoke the instant some actual work had to get done.
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>>171833463
Confirmed this guy is a leftist stooge trying to indoctrinate us. Tell us what you think of open borders? Bet he wants us to let them all in and then some
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>>171843711
>collectivists lacking initiative
No surprise there. I am more interested in the moral foundation of your philosophy. I see that the status of property is central but is NAP part of it, or some similar principle that concerns the use of force?
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>>171833819
Well the main reason in my opinion is that groups became radicalized and seperafed from one another and further insulated from discussion because of media that caters to ones viewpoints. I as a nationalist would not listen cnn for example.

From there the media often will push its own narrative and shun others. And because there are very few news networks their influence is often quite large.

On a personal level we like things we agree with so we will listen to media that we enjoy as opposed to listening it to craft the viewpoint. Why would I listen to The Daily shoah, which is just as bad, when I can listen to The Young Turks or NPR which I agree with.

So because we are so insulated we are driven less and less to support a more center or moderate position as opposed to a more extreme one.

On a tangent many groups are easily influenced and often pay little attention to news and are completely motivated by emotion and or material incentive which reduces the quality of political discussion. This is why leftists have such a large sway over those groups in many areas both historically and in the present.
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>>171843382
How typical. I ask a leftist to tell me about a subject he mentioned and he tell me to read a book.

How about you formulate your own opinions for once?

>and that property is outlawed in a mutualist community.
>Public banks own money and will lend it to you so you can use the money you now own to buy means of productions
I hope you see a contradiction here.

So, I just have to say that I still need things and invent bullshit reasons and we are back to normal?

Why would anyone produce things if they can't get something from their work?

>You can built a house, live in it, and even sell it; but you can't rent it.
This is the kind of things we talk about when we mention how communism killed millions.
You in the left have nice ideal, and you create ideologies to make them real and forget to take reality in the loop.
When I am young and still poor, I have to work for a living and it would take me years to build a house or to save enough money to buy one.
The only choice left is to build a sack near a road and to live here for years until I can afford the empty home some guy use to stock his stuff.


>As for abuse of the bank, remember that it's still a bank. Loans need to be approved, and in this case loans qualification depends on the needs of the community. If you want to build a factory, the community might decide it doesn't need one and won't fund it. That doesn't mean you can't build a factory, only that the community won't give you the capital to do it.
Look what you are describing is what we have now but in more uneffective. I don't give a damn who own the bank, I give a damn if I can borrow them money and at what cost.
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>>171844248
No, although some left-leaning anarchists accuse mutualism of being "capitalism lite," there is no formal NAP baked into mutualism, largely because mutualists are actual anarchists and not minarchists cosplaying as anarchists, like Libertardians. The basis of mutualism is understanding that crucial difference between ownership and property. Once property is outlawed, you don't have the same problem with accumulation of capital that Randroids and so-called an-caps do. You can own what you can immediately use, but you can't start using it to collect passive rents.

Without property, you no longer need the sort of oppressive propertarian police you require for a Libertardian community.
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>>171843711
>25 years of trying to get practical things done with a succession of reds, leftists, trots, tankies, and campus radicals has taught me that I have no interest in share-and-share-alike with a pack of lazy, disinterested shirkers whose main joy in life is pointing fingers at people, and who are always there when you need a fiery manifesto signed, but vanish like smoke the instant some actual work had to get done.
Look like someone got his first red pill.
Now, are you interested by a share-and-share-alike with me? With who then?
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>>171834205
they don't talk to you any more because you always bring up politics
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>>171844662
You're clearly both stupid and disingenuous. I told you that I encouraged you to read actual literature about the subject since I can't describe an entire sociopolitical system in a few thousand works on an anonymous llama-swapping forum.

Your obvious misunderstanding of what "property" means and how it differs from ownership is why none of this makes sense to you, and why I encouraged you to do some reading, such as Proudhon's _What Is Property?_
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>>171834818
If you are a fucking commie you know we'll adorno already predicted this shit with his sexual liberation.
Also go to hell you are the reason everywhere leftism appears we go shit.
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>>171834205
You must bring the party with you wherever you go...
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>>171844824
No. I want my own stuff. I might share my stuff with you of my own volition, but then again I might not. I want to live in a community where people are free to do as they please, but where people reap the fruit of their labour. You should have free access to the means of production so you can produce your own wealth, and then you should be allowed to starve to death if that's your choice.
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>>171833463
>When did people stop wanting to hear divergent views?

idk. i talk a lot but people rarely talk back. i'll listen to whatever it is you have to say.
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>>171833463
I hate these posts...yeAh kids suck and so do echo chambers...but we all live in the same world...help eachother understand why we are fucked up think of ways to fix it
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>>171845423
>no I want my own stuff.

Isn’t that where there is an inherent fault in collectivism? Because at the end of the day you’re just a commodity to the state.
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>>171845423
>No. I want my own stuff. I might share my stuff with you of my own volition, but then again I might not.
>You should have free access to the means of production
Do you understand the means of productions are the product of the labor of someone? Is that guy free to keep the means of productions he built?
If not, then why would he build them in the first place?
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>>171833925
Fuck off
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>>171845183
Just calling others stupid and telling them to convert all by themselves is not going to help.

Remember why you started this thread? You wanted to know why no one is discussing any more. You have your answer.
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>>171845423
Answer this >>171844216 faggot larper
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>>171844808
How can you outlaw something without a state to enforce those rules?
>
For the sake of the argument I'll assume you could enforce these rules without a state.
but then
Is there a hierarchy of escalation, or would anyone who violates these rules be 'fair game'? How could you determine what response is warranted without a moral framework?
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>>171845747
Did you manufacture the Earth? Because ultimately the means of production is tied to land. If land can become property, then all of it is eventually in someone's pocket, and those who own it become slavemasters over those who were born without it.

This is why it's so important for people to understand the difference between ownership and property. Ownership is fine. Property is not. Even Adam Smith opposed passive rents. It's nothing but parasitism. Capitalism is literally rule by parasites.

There are natural limits to how wealthy a person can become without property. If you build a factory with your own hands (or get a loan from your community, or collect enough capital from your friends), then you can hire people to work in that factory if they so choose -- but since *anyone* can also build their own factory, you can't monopolize the means of production.

If I could set up a hamburger stand outside McDonald's, I could offer a superior product at a cheaper price and put them out of business -- which is why McDonald's makes sure that taxes, licensing, land costs, and sundry other barrier exist to prevent people from competing with them.
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>>171833463
>>171833925
gen z here, thanks for leaving the mess we have to clean up. I wanted to have a normal life and you disgusting subhumans took that away from me. Can't wait until you guys get lynched for being traitors to the western world
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>>171846135
This is the big issue with anarchy.

Anarchists always have an accurate idea of how things should be managed, but you either live in anarchy or you don't. What if the people want to use money? the fact is that they do, so all sorts of anarchism without money are going to either disappear in a week or turn into a violent dictatorship.

What if people want a police force to protect them from rape and gangs? All sort of anarchism without cops will either become an anarchism with a police force or not an anarchy.

And what if the majority of the people want a caliphate with the sharia law? What if the majority of the people want a social democracy or literal Nazism?
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>>171846135
There's lots of different proposals for how that might work, but for a practical example you could look at Classical Athens, whete there was no criminal law and no police. People voluntarily belonged to the polis, surrendering certain freedoms in exchange for the benefits of being part of the polis. If you harmed someone, the person you harmed (or their family) would either hire some vigilantes or get a bunch of friends together and drag you down to the magistrate. The magistrate would then decide who was at fault (and might penalize those who'd dragged you in if you weren't at fault) and either assign a financial penalty, sentence you to death, or banish you from the polis.

Banishment was in some ways the worst possible punishment, since it revoked any protection you had. You could be mugged, raped, or murdered and no one would lift a hand to defend you. On the other hand, if you were a member of the polis and paid your taxes to the polis, you could count on protection by the polis wherever you went, and even bandits would think twice about someone who was under the protection of a powerful polis like Athens.

I'm not saying that's an ideal solution, or even one that I'd support personally, but it is an example of a viable system which was actually used successfully.
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>>171846427
Mills have to be manufactured. Tools have to be manufactured. Farms have to be manufactured. The pen and paper you use to keep tracks of what you do need to be manufactured. The irrigation system need to be manufactured.

That's just about primary sector. The second and third one don't even use land.

Earth alone produce nothing.

>passive rents
If it's passive, then it don't exist.
Renting a home is not passive as you don't only have to pay the people who built the home but also to maintain it. If he really did nothing, then no one would need him.

In your kind of anarchism you can hire people? Strange.

Listen, you are free to open a car factory. Do you even know how to do it? No, because it's too big. At the end you have a small number of car manufacturers who don't have to fear new business, so it won't be any different from what we have now.
What would your special kind of anarchism add to the present situation?

Everyone can open a small shops, especially now that interest rates are close to a % and sometime even under. What we can't do is go against the giants, but even in your dream world we couldn't and the giants are simply more effective at some things.
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>>171847070
>People voluntarily belonged to the polis,
>Banishment was in some ways the worst possible punishment, since it revoked any protection you had. You could be mugged, raped, or murdered and no one would lift a hand to defend you.
I am sure an anarchist like yourself like having to make this kind of choices.
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>>171848057
It's pretty clear you're middle class. If you'd ever spent time at the bottom, you'd know it's a very different world. Banks don't give homeless people loans to open a hot dog cart. Banks don't give baristas loans to open a competing coffee shop.

The way things work now, the only way to accumulate capital is to work for capitalists to let them accumulate even MORE capital. This creates a situation where being born with capital means you own everyone who doesn't by acting as a gatekeeper to the means of production.

As Bakunin put it, "The worker's liberty is only a theoretical freedom. lacking any means for its possible realization. Consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. The truth is that the whole life of the worker is simply a continuous and dismaying succession of terms of serfdom -- voluntary from the juridical point of view but compulsory from an economic sense -- broken up by momentarily brief interludes of freedom accompanied by starvation; in other words, it is real slavery." -- Mikhail Bakunin

>>171848274
Anarchy doesn't mean no laws, no rules, or disorder. It only means "no rulers."
>>
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>>171833819
>>171833925
Generation X is nothing but poorer Boomers.
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>>171833463
>boomer faggot
>commie flag
In the trash it goes grandpa
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>>171834818
>community organizer

Low info - mad, but throwing stones in the wrong direction
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>>171848616
The homeless guy can work a macjob for a week and pay his hot dog cart debt free.
Banks do give people with experience in holding a bar the money to open a bar if they think it have some chances to work.

You have to borrow money only if you want to make it big. No one force you to live in the city, go live the life of your dream with like-minded people if you want to, but I won't give you something for free and the capitalists are not to blame for this.


>This creates a situation where being born with capital means you own everyone who doesn't by acting as a gatekeeper to the means of production.

Good thing capitalism made them compete against their own kind then. They either support what work and get more money or support what don't and get poor. They do make an unreasonable quantity of money, but they serve a purpose.

>Anarchy doesn't mean no laws, no rules, or disorder. It only means "no rulers."
If no one make rules, then there is no rules and if no one enforces the rules, then the rules are just paper.
>>
>>171833463
Probably around the time the term "neurodivergent" started gaining traction.
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>>171848616
So what means "no laws and no rules"?
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>>171849545
You're delusional if you think a homeless person can raise several thousand dollars in a week.
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>>171833463
Because you stupid old cunt. In your time, as mine (I am much younger than you by the way) we lived in a white society. The issues we dealt with and viewpoints we had were mostly the same.
Now we are live post-end-of-history. At a time when Liberalism was presumed to be the dominant worldview yet is completely unable to articulate the issues of today let alone tackle them. So, DUMB CUNT there are extreme opposing views on how to fix the world. Views you can't reconcile and lead to civil war. Not consensus, you stupid fucking old retard. FFS!
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>>171833463
With the internet, we don't have to interact with different people anymore, so why not just enter an echo chamber?
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>>171848616
Your ideology is internally consistent and unlike most utopians actually presented with achievable goals in line.

However, I think there a few assumptions you make which undermine it. Firstly, anarchism is by its nature anachronistic and slow to adapt to changes. The context of the majority of anarchist ideology is agricultural or industrial societies which scarcely exist in our countries. As such, many of the concepts about property are no longer relevant and nowhere near nuanced enough to deal with modern economies.

Secondly many of these theories are based on assumptions of belief which only hold true for certain demographics, and that is a view of justice and morality unique to white men. I won't bore you with race realism and 'red pills' but the cross-cultural studies on conceptions of morality is clear. Only in the west do these ideas of social justice hold moral value, and only in the west is there a moral value for individual autonomy. Furthermore, the perception of justice from a man is very different to a womans. Again, this is not ideological dogma, but merely a reflection of the data we have. Women broadly view justice from an interpersonal standing, whereas men view justice from a universalist view. In male dominated homogenous societies anarchy may work, but such views are seen, rightly in fact, as bigoted. Bigoted as it may be, it is the truth.

Finally, your ideology is entirely materialistic. Materialism can only go so far, and in the end I see it reaching a point of moral stagnation and decay where life satisfaction plummits much in the same way as it does today, regardless of how good material wealth may be.

Beyond these criticisms I simply ask if the benefits are truly worth the bloodshed, because I don't.
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>>171849545
Why is this even an argument? Who in their right fucking mind would buy hot dogs from a homeless guy? BOTH of you are fucking retards.
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>>171849959
If he is homeless, his regular spendings are very low. This it the point of the thing.
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>>171850351
How can you possibly know if he is homeless?




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