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File: Three way fight.jpg (76 KB, 900x708)
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Which ship has the highest standards of overall professionalism?
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>>53333617
Star Destroyer.

Particularly if you're in Vader's fleet.
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Star wars. Easily.

Star fleet is a bunch of pleasure barges really, and imperial ships are just shit holes. I'm saying this as a massive 40k fanboy who usually argues for them in these, but there is no way 40k wins professionalism, and I can't see Star Fleet winning it either considering the shenanigans they get up too.
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>>53333617
All this picture really does is highlight how retarded 40k writers are and how bad they are with scale.
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>>53333617
>40k
Slavery and cults run the ship

>Star Trek
The crews are mixed-bags of scientists and humanitarians for whom fighting is distinctly a secondary part of their mission

>Star Wars
So little canon exists from the Imperial Navy's POV that it's hard to tell, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say them.
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>>53333720
There is literally nothing wrong with having multi-kilometre long ships.
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>>53333732
>So little canon exists from the Imperial Navy's POV

Are you a tard?

>Scenes on Death Stars
>Scenes on Star Destroyer
>Scenes on all manner of Imperial Vessels
>Scenes of Rebels impersonating Imperial vessels
>Scenes of ship boarding
>Scenes of ship to ship combat
>Scenes of ship to ship combat from inside the ships
>Scenes of Imperials Imperializing on Imperial Vessels
>Mfw over half of the original movies take place on board an Imperial ship
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>>53334066
With those features at that scale?
The only way the 40k designs move anywhere near "Not absolutely retarded" is by dividing all the numbers by about 20-40. And even then they still are pretty awful.
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>>53333732
>The crews are mixed-bags of scientists and humanitarians for whom fighting is distinctly a secondary part of their mission

That's because the Federation ships aren't warships. They build exploration ships. Science vessels. They 'waste' space on crew luxuries because they can afford to. Yet they still have enough firepower to reliably win against a similar volume of enemy ships. The Federation didn't have a need to build dedicated warships until the Dominion war.

Federation professionalism varies between ships. TOS Enterprise was a professionally run ship. Voyager had a chief engineer who couldn't identify shit even with the aid of a tricorder.

The ship the OP picked was a Galaxy class. Probably the TNG Enterprise. The ship that knowingly took children into dangerous situations. Very unprofessional.
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>>53333617
Imperial Star Destroyer > Well Run Federation Ship > Republic Star Destroyer > Space Marine Battlecruiser > Your Average Federation Ship >>> Average Imperium Ship
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>>53334396
>That's because the Federation ships aren't warships. They build exploration ships.

The Defiant was the first close thing to a warship, but even then it was considered an escort cruiser.

That being said, the Andorians (who despite being a founding race of the Federation LOVE war) have battlecruisers.
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>>53334496
this
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>>53333617

Star Wars. The empire maintains a consistent uniform on consistent ships without any real embellishment and has universal standards. With the other two ships the quality and ability of those ships will vary wildly but one Star Destroyer is essentially the same as the next unless a dark jedi is on board.
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>>53334562

>Defiant

Designed to fight the Borg, as a lot of ship classes were. And despite her size, she was considered a pure warship, completely no frills, and as such, had a considerable array of weapons. It wasn't her size that dictated her class. She was a Destroyer class vessel, pure and simple. Quick, could punch well above her weight, and armored.

Unfortunately thats always never enough because no one who has ever written anything for Star Trek, including Gene Roddenberry, knows anything about the Military or Naval Warfare

I did kinda like that nutrek brought back the idea of pre-WW1 dreadnoughts in the simplest form - too bad it was wasted a bbeg ship
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>>53333639
Historically, fascist states tend to become increasingly inefficient at their higher ranks (mostly due to eccentric and narcissistic senior party members), and so I wonder what that entails for the Empire, given that their highest echelons feature murderous space wizards.
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>>53334396
>The ship that knowingly took children into dangerous situations. Very unprofessional.
Admiral Nelson started as a midshipman at age 14. Say what you will about the ethics of taking children into harm's way aboard naval vessels, but cast no doubt on its long and storied history.
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>>53334396
>>53336551
>mfw the Royal Navy used to kidnap kids in coastal towns and make them work the pumps on their ships or carry powder from the magazine to the guns.
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>>53336578

They used to kidnap a lot of people - its called "Press Ganging" - age of sail line ships were often split between pressed, able seamen, and officers, with the officers being the minority. Why do you think mutinies are such a huge deal? If a ships crew wanted to, they could mutiny easy. Hell, half the job of Marines is to keep the crew in check, and the other half being to fight the enemy.
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>>53336626
But kids. That's unarguably worse. Probably.
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>>53336472
>Especially Gene Roddenberry

fixed that for you.
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>>53336654
>But kids

How do you figure?
If your a kid on the streets, you probably have no parents because they died, and if you do, your moms probably a whore, and your dad was a john - you probably got arrested for stealing food, or might have stabbed a man for his coin purse. Guess what punk? You can go to jail, or go serve aboard his majesty's frigate.

At least press ganged, you get a meal and you get to work, and you get camaraderie.
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>>53336698
Yeah, or if you're a kid on the street, you're a kid who's been told to go buy bread.
Criminals were sometimes offered the choice, but it also happened often they just grabbed random people, even without any naval experience, and threw them on ships.
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>>53336472
So, one note. The thing about the Defiant is that the Federation crammed a Galaxy Class ship's weapons and defenses into a hull about the size and crew capacity of a Klingon Bird of Prey, and did so by making slight sacrifices in speed and cutting out everything that wasn't a gun, shield, or engine. Thing is, this isn't actually that useful except in the context of fighting the Borg and Dominion, because the Federation doesn't usually win battles with guns and ships. The Federation wins on technical ingenuity. See the Tachyon Net Blockade during the Klingon civil war, the deflector dish gun intended for use against the Borg before Wolf 359, etc. It's better to have a Galaxy class than a Defiant class, because the Galaxy is equipped to pull that sudden win-condition out of its ass.

Also, the Galaxy can do all the humanitarian, rescue, scientific, and exploration missions that are Starfleet's real mission in peacetime, whereas the Defiant is just guns. And in wartime, the Galaxy can carry over 6000 troops in addition to its crew, while you can cram less than a hundred people aboard a Defiant.
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>>53336793

Thats pretty much why the Defiant was scrapped, I think.

And then the Dominion War proved that actually having little bundles of big guns can actually be useful, so they actually a built a couple past the proto-type stage.
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>>53336828
I can't see them having much to do after the Dominion War. Do they have them run around or keep them mothballed until war?
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>>53336846

Well, with a small crew, I imagine the upkeep cost is minimal, so who knows.

But Starfleet never throws anything away, and during the Dominion War they had Excelsior class ships fighting
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>>53336828
Keep in mind that the Defiant was built at the Utopia Planitia yards roughly during seasons 5 and 6 of TNG. You know who was in charge of those yards? Sisko.

It just makes perfect sense that starfleet's most kickass ship was designed by the man who punched Q in the face, poisoned an entire planet over a personal grudge, and had a serial killer's mind in his head.

>>53336846
They're around in Star Trek Online, if you consider that canon(it's tier-2 canon, like the novels and other video games.)

Overall: I sympathize with the USS Defiant because I, too, am small and angry.

>>53336863
Excelsior's just a good design, no reason to take it out of service. Hell, a refitted one was able to go toe to toe with the Defiant in one ep of DS9.
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>>53336892
>Excelsior's just a good design

One of the best designs

My shipfu
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>>53336932
But not the best. Akira is the prettiest design, what with being the sleek, deadly TNG update to the Miranda, and who can say no to a ship named Thunderchild?
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>>53336863
Might be pretty comfy captaining one. Cramped utilitarian space, but you'd at least know every single person on board by name.

Maybe it's just me, but I like the small but powerful ships.
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Say what you want about 40k ships being retarded, if a macro cannon battery hits pretty much anything, it's going to have a really bad fucking fucking day.
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>>53336968
>but I like the small but powerful ships.

Long ago I had considered running a Star Trek campaign, and had decided to do so by putting the players in control of a small destroyer with a duty of patrolling sensitive borders and escorting convoys through rough space. Specifically because I prefer the small and comfy ship classes where everyone knows everyone else, and your options are a bit more limited.

Pic related
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>>53337023
Apparently there's a new Trek RPG coming out, Star Trek Adventures. Might be good for stuff like this.
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>>53336998
½mv2
Assume it's made from lead
Make it 100m calibre
Give it 2%c-7%c speed
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>>53337077
That's an obscene amount of kinetic energy.
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>>53336745
>Criminals were sometimes offered the choice

If the choice is between prison and getting to go to exciting locales and kill the people there, I'd be pretty stupid to pick prison.
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>>53333705
>I can't see Star Fleet winning it either considering the shenanigans they get up too.
>too

Learn the basic rules of English before you criticise more complex concepts, friend.
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>>53337123
There weren't really prisons, back then. Mostly it was death or public humiliation that was often deadly. Treatment on ships was already pretty terrible for voluntary sailors, and it was much worse for criminals.
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>>53337205
>There weren't really prisons, back then.

Sure there was, where do you think tax evaders went?
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>>53334099
Bare in mind the features you see are based on the miniature art so that you could easily recognize the systems on the table. In reality things like it's cannons are actually several dozen weapons on the facing.
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>>53337240
>where do you think tax evaders went?

Botany Bay
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>>53333617
None of those are UNSC ships
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>>53337154
Are you angry about something besides the grammar mistake? Seems like it.
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>>53336551
There is a difference between taking children on as crew and them being basically passengers.

The Federation would probably be opposed to the first.
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>>53336892
>it's tier-2 canon, like the novels and other video games

When did Star Trek officially get a tiered canon policy ?

Last I saw anything written by Treks owners, the policy was that the TV series and movies are canon. Everything else isn't.
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>>53336846
Probably mothball them. It probably helps with diplomacy if the only ships Starfleet is flying are the multi-role exploration/science/humanitarian aid ships. If they are trying to give the impression that they only used the Defiant class because they had no other choice.
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>>53333617
if by "professionalism" you mean "suffer not the xenos to live" than warhams got everyone beat by several miles of bloody chopped-up and charred alien corpses.
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>>53337899

Nah, if you were sent down unda, you were basically considered impossible to rehabilitate. And if you were considered too much of a badass for even Australia, they sent you to Norfolk Island where you were basically doomed to die.
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>>53341849
You say this, but given how much they used it for that role in TNG, the federation has a serious habit of showing up to negotiations with a battleship. It's a subtle "big stick" sort of thing.
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>>53336533
Well, we kinda see that in Rogue One with this cheeky cape-wearing cunt always bickering with Tarkin.
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>>53334496
10/10 post.
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>>53336626
Could the pressed, if proven exceptionally talented, advance into officers?
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>>53342263
Generally no. Officers of the time had to actually buy their way into the officers' ranks by purchasing a commission. It was worse in the Army, but even in the Navy, you had to pay a good chunk of cash to get a Midshipman's Berth, and a common pressed-sailor or even an enlisted sailor would never be able to save up the amount of money needed.
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>>53333617
A mars-class battlecruiser manned by adeptus mechanicus crew, you have tech priest that believe the ship their deity manifestation, cyborg crew Manning every post and can'tleave it because they're binded to their posts, skitarii serving along as arms men, also the battle cyborgs being living tanks guarding every corridor and several hundred more techseers keeping the ship running smoothly.
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>>53336967
Yo.

Admittedly in War of the Worlds, the HMS Thunderchild is the only human-built thing that manages to take down a Martian tripod...but it's destroyed shortly thereafter by other tripods.
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>>53336998
Of course, there's the rub...they have to hit.
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>>53336533
>Historically, fascist states tend to become increasingly inefficient at their higher ranks (mostly due to eccentric and narcissistic senior party members), and so I wonder what that entails for the Empire, given that their highest echelons feature murderous space wizards.
So the Imperium has the same problem, but they are both better then the dirty space hippies.
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>>53342263
Unless you had a particularly relevant skill, like carpentry, cooking, etc., your ass was, at best, a sailor. Plebs don't become officers.
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I don't mean to undermine the thread, but what about this ship?
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>>53345945
Don't imperium ships have stupidly long range and are aimed by psychics?

I seem to recall that they engage from outside cisiin with the naked eye, which is pretty fucking far for a 5km ship in emptt space.
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>>53348759
*vision
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>>53347971
The Imperium isn't fascist, they're feudal.

For fuck's sake they don't even have a unified economy, they can't even HAVE a planned economy.
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>>53348759
According to BFG lore if you could see the enemy ship with naked eye it was consider a knife fight.
Even the rules made the point that table top battles where an abstraction of the abstraction.

Sadly some artist and authors went full grimderp and show Macro batteries manned like old time canons instead of the rapid barrage of "fuck this area in particular with empire state building bullets" as it was intended in the BFG lore.

Imperial Navy crew is mostly comprised of trained crew.
The random skill level crew comes from the civilian ships, not the navy.
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>>53348640
With Keyes at the helm, probably of the upmost professionalism.
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>>53348954
above even vader's personal flagship?
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>>53348969
Yes
Even Admiral Spire would be better.
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The Imperial ship's non-slave crew would be the most professional of either ship, as they are drilled/beaten into being perfect soldiers and typically don't even bother with crew politics or rout, they are all willing to fight to the last man.

The slaves on the ship however, that's another thing.
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>>53348969
Yes. He seems like a guy with a lotta charisma.
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>>53349003
tangentially related
How effective would a MAC cannon be in 40k
I've seen plenty of bitching over direct ground confrontations of the UNCS vs IG.
Would a MAC cannon = Macro cannon?
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>>53349041
The 40K universe seems really overpowered, but there's probably some comparison stuff on Spacebattles or something.
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>>53349041
A mac cannon would be equal to a single macro cannon. 40K ships have batteries of those.
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>>53348759
Sure, but they'll never hit a Starfleet vessel. Impulse speed is 25% the speed of light. Warp 1 is the speed of light. Even in the 2150s, Earth was starting to build ships capable of hitting Warp 4.5, which is described as "Neptune and back in six minutes". And they have FTL sensors as well.

Starfleet's weapons might not be quite up to 40K standards, but their tactical speeds are overwhelmingly better.
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>>53349069
Yeah, fair enough
>>53349070
That sounds pretty rapey

How about a NOVA bomb?
Can take out a moon, exterminatus half a planet by itself?
>>53349086
how would adding cloaking into the mix affect things?
could the IN just detect the souls of the people on board using psykers at close range and aim using that?
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>>53349162
>How about a NOVA bomb?
>Can take out a moon, exterminatus half a planet by itself?
God, I fucking hate NOVA bombs. I wish they were never introduced to the Halo series.
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>>53349041
A MAC cannon would be similar to a single Macro Cannon.

Imperial Navy uses Macron Cannon Batteries, that on top of being precision shots they paint a particular area in stupid size bullets.

Rogue Trader ships are civilian ships, while the Imperial Navy are entirely composed by trained and professional crew.


40k, just like Star Trek or Star War suffers from writers that know nothing of the military. So we have very retarded tactics everywhere.
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>>53349086
Starfleet vs Imperial Navy would be a race to see who can use their techno blabla or Astropath psyker fuckery faster.
Since in a straight up brawl Starfleet could not dent the Imperial ship and the Imperial ship would need a lucky shot.
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>>53333705
>Star wars. Easily.

nope. it's a question of motivation.

Star Fleet is fighting to protect the free peoples of the galaxy from the monsters of the night.

the Imperium of Man is fighting the forces of Hell itself.

the Star Wars Imperials just aren't playing for the same stakes.
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>>53349189
>ouch
Are they really that bad?
>>53349199
As a comparison, did the writers of halo do a better job?
Or alternatively, how realistic (structure wise/tactic+strategy wise) was the UNSC.
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>>53349237
And how is that relevant to professionalism?
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>>53349249
The guys of Bungies at least worked with actual soldiers for their games.

UNSC fleet tactics was terror against civilians, against the aliens it was basically shoot till something breaks.
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>>53349249
>Are they really that bad?
One bomb can obliterate a planet, so yeah. They're dumb.
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>>53333617
Glorious heritage class warships.

Such as the Andromeda ascendent.
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>>53349267
incentive drives professionalism....Star Fleet fought and died against the Borg...Imperials routed at Endor.

Professionals dont rout.
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>>53349249
>NOVA bomb
Is basically the I win bomb and some how the UNSC forgot about it, during the human covenant war.

It would be like Abaddon forgetting he had the Planet killer during his siege of Cadia... Oh that happen too.
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>>53349279
>>53349337
I can see that they're pretty stupid, but what in 40k is the closest thing to them considering 40k is full of dumb shit.
Cyclonic torpedoes?
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>>53334066
https://youtu.be/MBmN8p_7sOM?t=1m9s

Only the best ships are multi-kilometre.
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>>53349361
In 40k there different levels of Exterminatus

Glassing the planet
Classic nuking
Virus Bombing
Cyclonic torpedoes

The last one don't usually explode a planet, usually just turn it into molten lava Cyclonic Bombs blow up planets. (The difference between the two is mixed up a lot in the lore)

Then we have shit like the Planet Killer that makes planets go boom and Black Stone Fortresses that can destroy stars.
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>>53349366
>Only the best ships are multi-kilometre.

what reason would there ever be for a war-ship to be that big?
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>>53349421
To house 12 destroyers in its hull, apparently.
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>>53349421
Bigger and bigger weapons, engines to propel everything, point defense systems, armor, storage, etc.

When you start needing bigger and bigger weapons to deal with bigger and bigger threats it gets pretty easy to get ships that big.
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>>53349405
oh so nova bomb = cyclonic bomb
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>>53349366
Sorry to go off topic but is Red Foreman just a huge scifi nerd? I just keep recognizing him in in more random scifi stuff and I love it. Here is the Temporal Dreadnought he commanded in a few episodes of Voyager.
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>>53349509
Well I mean, he was in RoboCop as well. Kurtwood Smith is pretty prolific, you just don't really notice him. I sure didn't realize it was him giving that tech room demonstration when I was like 11.

>>53349440
That was just a size comparison.
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>>53349451
maybe...hard to envision with our current tech tree.

space-based warships will probably be a lot like modern H/K subs, fast and stealthy.
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>>53349552
speaking of shit I didn't notice until years later. Look who's meth dealing ass was in Babylon 5, I didn't even recognize him until my 3rd time watching the series.
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>>53349476
You can say that for simplicity sake.

There is also Nova cannons in 40k, table top/video game scatter and power aside, those things are mini novas.
The Imperial captain says to his crew:
>see that bit of space?
>yes my lord
>I don't want to
>understood my lord

40k space Battle have torpedos hitting other shit at proper space Battle distances
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>>53336533
I agree with this for the most part, but compared to the Imperium and Starfleet, they're the height of professionalism even if every Imperial Officer above lieutenant was a greedy backstabbing prick.

I wouldn't want to work for any of them.
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>>53333720
>>53334099
>Missing the point this hard.

>>53345945
Not that hard when everything else is giant ships too.

>>53348969
Vader chokes a guy at a meeting. Not very professional there.
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>>53336828
The Federation won almost every war it engaged in due to superior technology. Starfleet ships are notably superior to Klingon, Ferengi, Cardassian and Romulan ships and they just kept pulling further ahead as the series moved forward. They tend to lose out ton per ton because starfleet doesn't have dedicated warships outside of the Defiant. It's why the Defiant was so notable in the first place. Starfleet is future NASA + the UN, not the future US Navy.
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>>53349640
Yeah if you IMDB him he had a lot of weird roles.
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>>53349162
>could the IN just detect the souls of the people on board using psykers at close range and aim using that?

Not really. Their weapons aren't fast enough. By the time they fire them, the target is no longer there. And they can't simply try and predict where the Starfleet vessel is going to be because the Starfleet vessel is under no obligation to follow the same continuous trajectory.

Think of it this way. A macrocannon's bolt traveling at 7% the speed of light will travel about 21 million kilometers. However, the "full impulse" speed of a Starfleet vessel is about 25% the speed of light, or 75 million kilometers per second. So a Starfleet vessel could travel at even half impulse (37.5 million km/sec) and outpace a macrocannon's fire.

>>53349230
>Astropath psyker fuckery faster.

Tyranny of distance. Even the most powerful psykers rarely control more than a part of a city (the kerfluffle with the Victory parade in the Eisenhorn trilogy being a good example).

Plus, don't most psykers end up just getting fed to the corpse on Holy Terra? How many psykers are on the typical Imperium vessel, and how strong are they are on average? Because my impression is "not many" and "not very".

TNG "The Wounded" establishes that phasers, at least, have an effective range of somewhat more than 300,000 km, which is well outside the range of any but the most extraordinarily powerful psyker.
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>>53349366
Obviously they'd get slaughtered in the 40k verse, but how would the GTVA survive in Star Wars or Star Trek?
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>>53349979
>>
Imperial Navy (SW), at least in the EU, parallels modern navies in professionalism, training, and tradition.

Starfleet isn't a military organization and is at a decisive disadvantage there

Imperial Navy is some crazy Ancient world-era navy where city-sized ships float around and have thousands of slaves launch empire state building-sized torpedoes with chains and pulleys. Captains are 2,000 year old senile genetic abominations fused to their chairs and the ship is guided by a mutant that looks into literal hell.
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>>53350209
They only pull that shit when they invent a massively superior foe. Lasers were expensive to put on camera in the 90's so regular ships almost never actually did anything and half the series was spent fighting giant crystals or cubes by talking to them on a big TV. At one point they spent two episodes discussing and eventually finding a way to avoid fighting a fucking cloud.

But they TALK about conflicts all the time. They had already savaged the Klingons and Cardassians in conventional war and fought the Romulans to a standstill a century before rapidly outpacing them technologically. They got beat up by the Breen I think? I dunno, the fuck even is a Breen.
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>>53350252
>EU

non-canon
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>>53350318
Wars that Earth or the Federation have been involved in and their results.

- Earth-Kzin Wars. Earth victory (possibly non-canon)
- Xindi Conflict. Earth victory
- Earth-Romulan War. Earth victory.
- Federation-Sheliak Conflict. Negotiated peace.
- Federation-Klingon War (2267). Peace imposed by the Organians.
- Federation-Cardassian Wars. Negotiated peace; de facto Federation victory
- Galen Border Conflicts. Federation victory
- Federation-Tzenkethi War. Negotiated peace.
- Dominion War. Federation victory
- Federation-Klingon War (2372-73). Federation victory
- Temporal Cold War. Federation victory.
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>>53350252
>Starfleet isn't a military organization and is at a decisive disadvantage there

They're still highly professional, arguably more so than the other two, and regularly drilled for combat. It's not like they run around flipping through manuals on how to raise shields or trying to remember the week of combat training they did in basic a decade ago the moment the Klingons arm disruptors, they respond exactly as the crew of a warship would.

Likewise, redshirts, for all their much maligned mortality, are always shown as extremely professional and capable, you rarely see them panicking or failing to obey orders, even when faced with things that would have every reason to terrify them. They behave like elite soldiers, not police or peacekeepers suddenly finding themselves in combat. Compare to stormtroopers that have armor designed for intimidation, are seen running away multiple times and start panicking whilst under attack from savage teddy bears.

Starfleet isn't military in terms of the organisation's goals and focus, in terms of training and capability, they're very much capable of performing as a military at a literal moments notice.
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>>53350433
Go fuck yourself.
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>>53350552

A lot of Starfleet's 'Not military' thing comes from basic armament. They don't equip them as you would professional soldiers.

However, as DS9 (And TOS at times) showed, when they do go to war they can bring plenty of toys. It's just there isn't much call for walking about a space ship with a full phaser rifle when your pistol can already put a hole in most walls at high settings.

Or the fact that officers can start ordering replicators to start producing sniper rifles that teleport bullets into the enemy with the help of the 'See through walls' scopes.
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>>53350657
He's not wrong though
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>>53350785
Only in the technical sense.

Legends is a thing.
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>>53349421
Depends on its use. If it's a carrier of some kind, a bigger one can carry larger and more units. Logistics ships can help their fleet more by carrying more equipment. Battle ships can mount more guns and fit the machinery for super weapons
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>>53350870
>Battle ships can mount more guns and fit the machinery for super weapons

A thermonuclear warhead can be the size of barrel. Your kilometre long spaceship is a very inviting target for something that would give off no signals and could be traveling at incredible speeds.


Lets not bring realism into space ship fights. In reality they're all going to be firing lasers at eachother trying to kill eachother very, very slowly from millions of miles away. Oh, and there would probably be hundreds of them. Maybe a stealthy one will roll up to within a few thousand miles and fire like one rail gun shot before 30 lasers found it, but probably not since they're all just going to be moving in random patterns constantly to avoid exactly that.

It's all make believe. Just enjoy the make believe.
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>>53349306
>Professionals dont rout.
Citizens don't rout, professionals certainly do.
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>>53334396

Voyager's chief engineer was an insurgent who got drafted into the job by circumstance. It's hardly a representative example of standard Federation professionalism.
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>>53345295
I recall an artillery regiment also took down a tripod before being melted by its buddies. Thunderchild takes out at least two.
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>>53350947
Professional soldiers almost always exhibit superior performance to conscripts, even conscripts who volunteered and are defending their homes.
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>>53336967
>Moving swiftly through the waters, cannons blazing as she came, brought a mighty metal warlord crashing down in sheets of flame!
>Sensing victory was nearing, thinking fortune must have smiled, people started cheering; "Come on Thunder Child!"
>>
What is professionalism? Professionalism is adherence to a bunch of standard practices in order to make the results produced by different teams more reliable. It drags the best performing teams down by infringing upon visionaries and geniuses, but it also brings the worst performing teams up by putting a stop to narcissistic idiots who think they're geniuses but aren't. The net effect is an overall increase in efficiency, especially as the number or size of teams involved gets bigger.

So now let's build on this a little bit:

>>53336793

The Federation has an almost anti-professional approach to Star Fleet, which is weird given all the uniforms. The Enterprise-whatever is an example of this when it works really, really well. Gather up a diverse set of geniuses and visionaries with the same basic goal, put them all on the same ship, and tell them to do their thing. They can overcome basically any problem thrown at them because they have high morale, are incredibly competent, and have been given both the resources and the authority to do whatever the fuck they want to solve whatever problem shows up.

We don't ever see the other edge of this, but somewhere in Star Fleet there's a captain running a ship who can't find his ass with both hands and a fully stocked sensor array leading a crew of similar fuck-ups, and while they're probably more regulated than the Enterprise (and given more routine missions), Star Fleet as an organization just doesn't have the tone at the top to enforce regulations to the degree that would be necessary to get these idiots who think they're geniuses to stop fucking with the chain of command and just follow the damn manual.

So to answer OP's question, ISD is most professional because, despite some surface appearances from the Enterprise that are mostly the result of Star Trek writers having no idea what military uniforms are for and when they're appropriate, neither the Imperial Navy nor Star Fleet are even trying to be professional.
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>>53351231

>We don't ever see the other edge of this, but somewhere in Star Fleet there's a captain running a ship who can't find his ass with both hands and a fully stocked sensor array leading a crew of similar fuck-ups, and while they're probably more regulated than the Enterprise (and given more routine missions), Star Fleet as an organization just doesn't have the tone at the top to enforce regulations to the degree that would be necessary to get these idiots who think they're geniuses to stop fucking with the chain of command and just follow the damn manual.

Actually, we see them in DS9 in the Valiant. They all fucking die. Mind you, Starfleet didn't actually know they were in a bad situation as they were actively hiding the fact that the superior officers were dead.
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>>53337028

Lasers and Feelings is super lightweight and great for one-shots in the meantime. Unfortunately its mechanics are trite enough that the GM will have to do a *lot* of heavy lifting getting the premise of each episode to be intriguing enough to make up for how stale the rules will be after the first few adventures.
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>>53348759

Battlefleet Gothic doesn't give us exact ranges for anything, but judging by the terrain rules it seems that maximum engagement range was somewhere in the neighborhood of the distance between Earth and Mars orbit, so somewhere in the neighborhood of 35m miles.

It's hard to say what range we're looking at for Star Fleet because Star Trek isn't very consistent at all with any of its numbers or tech (TNG and DS9 made the strongest effort, but Voyager undermined it). Battles around DS9 and the Bajoran Wormhole indicate engagement ranges well under 40k capabilities, but it's not clear if that's a special case because the Wormhole provides a chokepoint or if that's typical.
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>>53351368
>but it's not clear if that's a special case because the Wormhole provides a chokepoint or if that's typical.

Seems very atypical and base heavily on 'Shit jumps out of the wormhole pretty damn close'
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>>53336793
>And in wartime, the Galaxy can carry over 6000 troops in addition to its crew, while you can cram less than a hundred people aboard a Defiant.

This is why I disagree with what seems to be the common consensus amongst trekkies that the USS Defiant is a more sensible dedicated warship design than the USS Vengeance.

Realistically, the Defiant's main edge over the Vegeance is maneuverability....but how useful is that really when everyone is packing extremely accurate phaser arrays?

By comparison, the Vengeance not only has a far greater resistance to damage due to it's size (we see it sustain the detonation of 72 advanced torpedoes inside it's own superstructure. That would gut the Defiant instantly, simply because they'd never be more than 100m from the bridge or warp core) but also demonstrates huge amounts of internal living space. Coupled with the fact it's demonstrated advanced transporter capability and can be operated by a tiny crew, the only logical reason for this massive excess of internal volume is troop transportion.

This is what we'd term today as an assault ship, a vessel designed to transport troops into a hostile environment and deploy them rapidly whilst under fire, something the Federation traditionally lacks the capability to do (cramming a bunch of soldiers into the luxury quarters of a Galaxy class not withstanding), whilst not lacking for straight-up fleet firepower which is the Defiant's only role.
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>>53351231
>We don't ever see the other edge of this, but somewhere in Star Fleet there's a captain running a ship who can't find his ass with both hands and a fully stocked sensor array leading a crew of similar fuck-ups
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>>53349199
Many of the writers for 40k know plenty about the military, just not modern military.
Which makes sense really.
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>>53351368

Yeah, ranged are not remotely consistent. If you look at the old FASA game Weapons were 20-30 hexes in range and each hex was 100,000km. Star Trek online stops you at 15k however.

Not that 40k is much better, with Battlefleet Gothic (Vidya) having ranges of 12k for stuff.
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>>53351392

WHY IS THERE EMPTY SPACE AROUND THE BRIDGE
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>>53351368
I think the close range thing is more likely just a neccesary feature of television.

In realistic terms, any engagement between interstellar-capable combatants is going to be so far beyond visual range that it wouldn't be funny, we already have sensor equipment that could detect and guide a missile onto something hiding on the far side of the Moon.

It's hard to make that entertaining to watch. The Expanse tried it, but even then, cut it so it looked far, far closer than the 'realistic' engagement ranges actually described in the books.
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>>53351467
Because it's a planetary assault vessel and that gives the bridge window a view of both space above the ship and the planet below.

Because the JJ ships use actual fucking windows (that mean their crew is a few inches of armoured glass/transparant aluminium away from being vented into space) instead of view screens but that's another issue entirely.
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>>53351493

THAT'S STUPID
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>>53349249
It's better than 40k, and the tactics in the games aren't terrible, their tech is kind of fucking weird though.

The Scorpion is a nightmare of terrible design decisions and doesn't even pack something as strong as a modern MBT cannon. The infantry use modern ammunition with very little apparent iteration, though they do have smartlinked firearms, and their rapid deployment vehicles are all completely open top.

Outside of the space navy and Spartan program it's like the entire military just completely stopped giving a fuck.
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>>53351467
Looks cool.
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>>53351501
I didn't want to mention the scorpion since I know people just get angery about it
I do like the wolverine and the cobra which in all honesty aren't that badly designed though both should have some sort of hmg for point defence.
But you are right, the open topped vehicles, scorpion and all the artillery units are pretty shocking
The hornet is also fairly fucking disgusting especially when compared to something like the hawk which is just completely superior while seemingly low-tech engine-wise compared to the hornet
Same goes for the falcon compared to the pelican, just fucking awful
Also idk if it's even canon but the cougar apc is pretty neat
>>
>>53351392

The Defiant might have another significant edge over the Vengeance: Cost. How many Defiants can you produce for one Vengeance? Planetary invasion forces may also be a lost cause even with Vengeance-size ships dedicated almost completely to troop transport. Safe to say that you need a minimum of a few million soldiers to successfully invade a planet, and how many Vengeances do you need to carry that many?
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>>53351547
Oh the hornet is an absolutely baffling kind of design, you'd think those two spindly arms would snap every time the pilot had to accelerate at faster than walking pace.

And yeah, a lot of hardware introduced in HALO Wars is actually a lot more down to earth than it's older FPS brother. Even the Grizzly manages to be slightly less retarded than the Scorpion even if it shares a lot of the same core design issues.
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>>53351653
also the hornet doesn't look like it could go that fast compared to the hawk, the wingmen on it are retarded and it's twin hmg should be an autocannon, a class of weapon we rarely see in halo but which is badly needed
Halo wars 1 introduced a lot of nice things
shame 2 was shitty as a game and the plot was boring compared to one.
Though the kodiak seems alright as far as artillery goes, especially compared to the rhino

Also we rarely see the atmospheric fighters used in halo, I mean the falcon concept fighter was reminiscent of the su47 while still retaining that halo feel.
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>>53351602
>The Defiant might have another significant edge over the Vengeance: Cost. How many Defiants can you produce for one Vengeance?

Quite possibly, but with a culture like the Federation, the cost of something wouldn't neccesarily increase with size, it'd be more linked to how difficult the technology involved was to manufacture. We know the USS Defiant had serious design issues during it's prototyping stages that led to it being abandoned as a project at one point. By comparison the Vengeance was produced rapidly, on a off-the-books black ops budget.

The minimal crew plays a part here too. You might be able to manufacture more of the smaller Defiant class, but they still require a larger crew than the heavily automated Dreadnought class, and since the Federation is a post-scarcity society, trained crew may be the limiting factor for how many ships they can deploy, rather than raw materials to build them, similar in a way to the Royal Air Force during the Battle of Britain; lots of planes rolling off production lines but no one to fly them.

It's a good point about the number of soldiers needed to successfully occupy a planet, but realistically you'd only need a warship to deliver a (relatively) small beachhead to disable defence infrastructure like surface-to-orbit weapon systems or shield generators, something the Dreadnought class could do well, having both far more transport capability than even 24th century vessels in the Prime timeline and the advanced weapons and shields needed to survive long enough to deploy troops via transporter.

After that, provided you could secure near-orbit space from the enemy fleet, you could use regular troop transports to shuttle reinforcing waves of grunts down the gravity well.
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>>53351142
Professionalism doesn't determine whether you route or not: that's experience. Professionals tend to route less because they tend to have more experience because they tend to have more mandated training, but that's not always the case and highly motivated and experienced irregulars are always going to be more dangerous than inexperienced regulars, though certainly a rarer animal because they lack a means of building up that experience that doesn't put men at risk. The other two don't route, and have more weighty causes, but that doesn't make them professional in the slightest. It's actually their need for the kind of heroic shit that pushes them to be less professional which >>53351231 explained perfectly. They need geniuses and geniuses don't thrive in the politics of Professionalism, even if it's more likely to be preferred in other situations.
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>>53334099
Those cannons shoot shells that produce planet shattering explosions and the lance on the front can melt one of those kilometer long ships in a single blast... Things are retardo big in 40k because they do retardo big things.
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>>53349162
>>53349086
The IN would be relying on lance shots and las batteries to hit something as fast as a Federation ship. It would be like an elephant trying to step on a mouse.
>>
I'm kind of on the fence, Im listening to Salvations Reach at the moment, and I've gotten more of an insight on the interiors of even casual vessels, for the shit they have to deal with I think the crews of the Imperium are professional as fuck, I mean as much as Starfleet and Empire talk a big game they don't have to deal with demonic war engines shouting their own names through the sound systems causing diarrhea and nose bleeds in humans and fucking causing all the cyborg staff to convulse AND EXPLODE whilst their own hazardous as fuck workplace tries really hard to kill them too. Hell, in one snippet they talked about two workers dying from gun recoil and one burning to death from heat discharge, like thats just an ordinary day at work! Imagine your hamby pamby Starfleet pussy under that much stress every other day.

The way I see it, professionalism derives from how well you can act under pressure. In Star Trek spacefaring is glorified yacht sailing with anti puracy countermeasures, Empire are essentially stuck in an equal tech Policing the galaxy type deal whilst in 40k everyday is the Somme, like every other awful job in Emperor's light
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>>53349405
The Blackstone Fortresses and the Planet Killer use Warp bullshit to cause critical existence failure so I think they can be counted out here.
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>>53349569
>practical stealth in space
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>>53351501
7.62 is perfectly fine for killing people. Enhancements to propellant and projectile shape would easily explain why .30 caliber's still around if there's been any advances in armor protection on a large scale.

Plus UNSC was dealing with insurgents til the covies popped up so if you don't need anything better why change.

It just isn't so great for ten foot tall dinosaur people.
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>>53352133
Imperial and Starfleet ships would just turn their sound systems off, because they understand how they work, know where the 'off' switch is and don't have to sedate their own engineering crew to stop them violently reeeeing about 'interfering with sacred communicator spirits' before hitting said 'off' switch.

The bulk of Imperium ship crews are enslaved, bar the officer cadre. Continuing to work in your suicidally dangerous job because you have a literal gun to your head =/= bravery or professionalism.
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>>53342263
You could get a battlefield commission for doing something impressive, it was not common.
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>>53352250
>thinking you can "turn off" a possessed machine

You blow it up, silly.
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>>53349405
The Planet Killer only makes planets go boom by crashing in to it.
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>>53352133

The professional response to someone launching into a sermon on the Emperor is "we're not here for religion, we're here to do our job." A professional is going to load the damn cannon no matter how much the daemon screams at him because *that is his job* and he is going to do his damn job. Being a religious fanatic is a completely different type of resilience with a completely different set of trade-offs.
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>>53352250
You don't turn them off, you can't.
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>>53352302
>possessed

Imperium machines only get possessed because they use brains instead of integrated circuits. Chaos can't even properly possess Tau, let alone a communication system make of wires and ICs rather than lobotomised tech-heretics and holy oil.
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>>53352409
That may no longer be true soon, Chaos is at the Tau Empire's doorstep.
>>
*blocks your “space corridor”*
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>>53352399
>you can't turn them off

>Uhura, this chanting is getting on my nerves, shut down the internal announcement system
>Done captain.
>Excellent. Mr Chekov, please beam a photon torpedo onto the source of that transmission.
>>
>>53352409
>Imperium machines only get possessed because they use brains instead of integrated circuits.

Are you trying to tell demons how they work? What they can and can't possess?

Because they don't agree with your narrow minded theories.
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>>53352446
>Because they don't agree with your narrow minded theories.

Except they do. They struggle to even see Tau with their warp-sight, souless machines are completely immune to them, just ask the Necrons.
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>>53352445
>beam a photon torpedo onto the source of that transmission.

Good job destroying your own ship.
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>>53352524
That's in real space.

In warp space they do whatever the fuck they want. The original subject was, lest we forget, referring to traveling through the warp.
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>>53352544
The Tormageddon Monstrum Rex was just chanting it's name into the Imperial vox network as a battlecry as it moved to engage the Imperial vessels in realspace. Not in the warp.
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>>53352544
Star Wars/Trek ships don't use the Warp.
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>>53352409
Not true, in the Skitariius book they were posessing friggin doors and shit.
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>>53352525
>Even the inbred noble chucklefucks of the Imperial Navy could indentify that the giant, daemon-possessed warship proudly declaring it's name as the Tormageddon Monstrum Rex was the source of the repeating vox transmissions of 'Tormageddon Monstrum Rex' that were jamming the vox network
>Thinking Starfleet won't be able to do this and will additionally accidentally detonate a weapon inside their own ship for reasons
>>
>>53352657
Probably controlled by a servitor brain. This is the Mechanicus we're talking about.

>We need this door to open whenever a human approaches it
>Hmmmm...you know what's good at opening doors for people? Other people!
>Genius....mind you, we don't want the man assigned as door opener wandering off...
>We could remove his legs?
>That's a good idea. And thinking along those lines, does he really need any other extremities? We could just wire his cortex to the door open/close button!
>Perfect! The Magos is going to be so pleased when we show him this design!

And thus, the Imperium gets automatic doors controlled by a brain in a jar, which is wide open to possession by the first warp entity that encounters it.
>>
>>53352445
>bridge terminal explodes and kills 5 people for no reason
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>>53352658
>The daemons can't possess anything aboard a Starfleet ship.
>>
>>53352708
They sure as hell can possess the ship's psyker.
>>
>>53350146
>Obviously they'd get slaughtered in the 40k verse, but how would the GTVA survive in Star Wars or Star Trek?

Star Trek is much more powerful than anything in Warhammer, anon.
GTVA Collosus is simply made for a different power level. You need the Shivans to match power levels with Star Wars, maybe Wh40k.
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>>53352438
My fucking nigger
>>
>>53336472
>>53336682

>Gene Roddenberry
>Captain in the 394th Bombardment squadron in the pacific during ww2
>Distinguished Flying Cross

> Apparently doesn't know shit about the military according to idiots on the internet.

Try harder.
>>
>>53352739
>Star Trek is much more powerful than anything in Warhammer, anon.
And that's why all combat in Star Trek occurs at such long distances that you can't even see it happening, with weapon yields so powerful they quite literally gut continents when they strike planets and space battles take hours to conclude because of multiple layered shields able to tank continent cracking firepower can recharge, come back online, and render all the progress you made in the battle irrelevent.

Oh wait, that never happesn in Star Trek outside of the imaginations of deluded fanboys and non-canon Trek EU books that are regarded as fan fiction officially.
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>>53334087
>>So little canon exists from the Imperial Navy's POV
>Are you a tard?

To be fair, all available recordings of Imperial Navy are little more than rebel propaganda vids.
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>>53333720
The scale is supposed to be ridiculous.

Calm your autism.
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>>53352695
Maybe, seems a bit far fetched though, not all tech is like that, just stuff that has complicated tasks. Legio Cybernetica can adhere to that.
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>>53352762
>non-canon Trek EU books

Unlike Star Wars, the House of Mouse hasn't declared the entire novel collection of Star Trek non-canon.

Enjoy your eight movies and two kid's animated series though.
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>>53352751
And apparently he learned jack shit during that time, since his writing displays only a profound ignorance of anything military.
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How about this, what are the TAU NAVY like?
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>>53344238
If it's AdMech, basically anything would lose if they encounter their best stuff like Ark Mechanius ships
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>>53352762
It literally takes an hour for a 40k Imperial Navy cruiser to make a u-turn. Imperium vessels are incredibly primitive compared to Federation vessels.
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>>53352833
Not true, at all.
Turning around is a couple of minutes, five tops.
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>>53352850
It takes two strategic turns for a cruiser like a Lunar to make a full 180 degree turn. A strategic turn is half an hour.
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>>53352811
Dude, that's not the case at all. None of the Star Trek books are canon according to to the owners. They are all regarded as fan fiction, the only thing canon in Star Trek is the shows and movies.

Are you even a trekkie?
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>>53352884
They take that long to turn because they move at cruising speeds at a significant fraction of lightspeed.

>“For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space. Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor. They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.” / The Saint: A Gaunt's Ghosts Omnibus, p.893 & 894
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>>53352884
Others have turned much quicker though.
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>>53352982

There's Star Trek episodes where ships turn 180 degrees while moving at warp speed. There's also a Star Trek episode where the inability to turn at warp speed at all is a plot point. It's a meme that these arguments come down to which universe the confrontation takes place in, but even that is misleading, because the abilities of ships for all involved vary drastically by episode or book. Very few large franchises make any attempt to keep their ship stat profiles straight, and none of the three in question are among the few that do.
>>
> Which ship has the highest standards of overall professionalism?

Professionalism? Probably the Empire. The Imperium has the issue that you can simply purchase or inherit a command. The Federation tends to emphasize science and exploration rather than military discipline, and science often requires that you play a bit loose with the rules when it comes to hierarchy when compared to the military.

The Empire has the advantage of being in many ways a continuation of the Republic military, meaning that there has only been a limited amount of time to develop the culture of cronyism, backstabbing, and personal politics that generally plague authoritarian states. This gives it a leg up on the Imperium, which has been a corrupt and decaying carcass for literally thousands of years. While the Empire has begun to show signs of that by the time of RotJ, it still isn't anywhere near as bad as the Imperium.

Star Fleet only sometimes even attempts to be a military, whereas that is basically all the Empire is.
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>>53353006
Escorts can make a 180 degree turn in half the time.
That's still a strategic round worth of time, which means 30 minutes to do a u-turn.
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>>53352695
>fucking Khorne won't let you into the lavatory
DAEMONS LEEEEEEAAAVE
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>>53334396
>They 'waste' space on crew luxuries because they can afford to.
And yet the key parts of their ships never ever have redudancy.
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>>53350550
Still there are some forces that outmatch them.
The Borg never used their full force against the federation, and Janeway narrowly avoided getting humanity into a full scale war with Species 8472, which despite their new bio-weapons, would have ended as mass slaughter with liekly entire planet systems destroyed.
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>>53353571

Humans/the Federation were, by raw firepower, outmatched in several of the wars they ended up winning.
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>>53351392
>huge amounts of internal living space

Why wasting room for that on a troop transport?
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>>53353571

Mind you that was less 'The borg chose not to use their full power' and more 'The borg kept being prevented from using it' as the federation was really good at blowing up subspace relays.

>>53353593

Yeah, the Federation is really good at going sideways around direct problems.
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>>53350137
Imoerial ship fight necron ships and manage to hit them.
Yes Necron ships that move faster than light.
No idea where you got the idea that Imperial Navy shit weapons are slow. Maybe the civilians have old time macro cannons with slaves pulling the gun back. (Honestly I doubt that imperium being imperium they could be there as a show)

Psyker wise there is at least two. Astropath that are basically over power bastards and sanctioned psykers that are your more common kind of psykers.

Star fleet vs Imperial Navy is basically who can pull their universe bullshit faster.

>>53353047
The Imperial Navy is not your stereotypical Imperium. It is along side the Inquisition a meritocracy. People confuse Rouge Trades with IN a lot.
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>>53354139
I don't get how could people confuse the Imperium's Navy and lipstick resellers.
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>>53354163
kek

In any case they assume that RT ships work the same as IN ships.
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>>53348640
Did you forget how badly the evacuation went when landing at the ring? Senior staff all captured? "I don't keep it loaded, you'll have to find ammo as you go"? That pleb had two things: whizz-bang tactics that kept the enemy at bay, and a LOT of charisma.

That's. All. Don't fall for hype, the man faked a surrender then shot his betters in the back, making it impossible for any future surrender to be taken seriously. The man's a hack, not professional at all.
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>>53354139
>Yes Necron ships that move faster than light.

How MUCH faster than light? Because I don't think you appreciate how fast a warp drive actually is. But I'm going to run out of space on this post, so give me a moment.

>No idea where you got the idea that Imperial Navy shit weapons are slow.

Because nothing in canon suggests that they're actually faster than light, viz., something about a C'tan shard or something escaping at near-FTL (but not actually FTL) speeds and Imperium ships being able to neither reach it nor fire upon it due to that. I forget the exact instance but it tends to come up in these discussions.

>Astropath that are basically over power bastards

Sure, but the great majority of them do not have ranges measured in the tens of thousands of kilometers. Alpha-level psykers are capable of reading the minds of everyone in a large city at once, for example, but even the largest city in the Imperium does not have a radius measured in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers (not even a city-planet - the diameter of Earth is only a little over 12km, for example, and habitable worlds don't get much bigger than Earth, certainly not to the point that we're entering the 100k range).

An alpha-plus might be able to do it, but alpha-plus are exceedingly rare, and SANE alpha-plus psykers are so rare as to functionally not exist. Not to mention that putting a psyker of that power level on your ship is basically asking for it to be overrun by daemons, something that the Imperium knows full well.

So a typical Imperium ship will not have a psyker on-board who can reach out to the effective weapons range of a Star Trek vessel, which is again in TNG "the Wounded" established to be a little over 300,000 kilometers.

(Technically if we go by the TNG technical manual, 300,00 is the range of a phaser, but the range of a photon torpedo is up to 2.5 million km. But let's stick to primary canon)
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>>53354881
>the diameter of Earth is only a little over 12km - Anon, 2017
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>>53354881
Star Trek space battles are on tv screen distances. The IN shoots them down before SF can see them :^)

Necron wise we have no idea how fast. Since space travel in 40k is plot speed. So IN can be faster and more accurate than SF just with the power of weaponized bad writers.
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>>53354881
Did you got those numbers from the flat earth people or the hollow earth?

Dark Angels are gay by the way.
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>>53354139
ROGUE
not ROUGE
IT'S NOT THAT FUCKING HARD YOU GODDAMN PIECE OF SHIT
I HOPE YOU FUCKING DROWN IN A POOL OF YOUR OWN FUCKING FLOP SWEAT
>>
>>53354881
This is the Star Trek Warp Drive post. If you will kindly look to the pic, you will see a math formula. This is the TNG warp factor formula (it was different in Kirk's era, and Enterprise used that time scale, so my "Neptune and back in 6 minutes" line for warp 4.5 upthread won't match up to the below).

Now, before anything else it's worth noting that Star Trek generally is more concerned with entertainment then accuracy, so this formula is violated often, usually in favor of FASTER speeds (notably, however, Voyager used a slower speed for its statement that the ship's journey would take 70 years). However for the purpose of this discussion, we'll stick to the formula.

The speed, as you can see, increases exponentially as one approaches Warp 10 (defined in-show as unreachable "infinite speed", you can get closer but never actually reach it). This means that each warp factor this fast (rounded to the nearest whole number):

Warp 1 = 1c
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 39c
Warp 4 = 102c
Warp 5 = 214c
Warp 6 = 392c
Warp 7 = 656c
Warp 8 = 1024c
Warp 9 = 1516c

High warp has been shown to be difficult to sustain (TNG "The Best of Both Worlds", the Enterprise-D was able to sustain Warp 9 for only a few hours), whereas lower warp values can be sustained nearly indefinitely (The Enterprise-D is normally seen to cruise at between warp 5-7)

To put this in real terms, here is the speed at which you could travel from the Sun to Neptune (4.498 billion km) at each warp factor

Warp 1 = 4 hr 16 min 4 sec
Warp 2 = 24 min 10 sec
Warp 3 = 6 min 40 sec
Warp 4 = 2 min 45 sec
Warp 5 = 1 min 10 sec
Warp 6 = 38 seconds
Warp 7 = 23 seconds
Warp 8 = 15 seconds
Warp 9 = 10 seconds

There is absolutely nothing in 40k lore that suggests to me that the Imperium could keep up with even warp 2, let alone the higher warp speeds.
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>>53354913
>>53355039

Whoops, meant to say 12,000 km. Mea culpa.

>>53355026
>Star Trek space battles are on tv screen distances.

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't. As mentioned, TNG "The Wounded" establishes an effective weapons range of at least a little over 300,000 km. It's a battle being observed real-time between the USS Phoenix and two Cardassian vessels; the Phoenix is specifically stated to close in to closer than 300k, but then take damage from the Cardassians who have the Phoenix's codes and thus can shoot through its shields. It then is said to withdraw to further than 300k, which is stated explicitly as beyond the Cardassian weapon range, but as the Phoenix continues to fire with effect on the Cardassians (she destroys both ships) this means it must have a weapons range of greater than 300k.

Given that, in Star Trek, rapid FTL speeds and FTL sensors are a thing and ships explicitly use pre-programmed maneuvers in battle ("execute maneuver Kirk-1", etc.), I've always presumed that ships get as close to each other as they do because otherwise the ships' per-programmed reaction speeds would be more than capable of detecting and avoiding incoming fire at distances greater than 1 light-second. Thus ships close so close to each other in order to not give the other ship a chance to react.
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>>53355143
The fuck warp 9 is slower than 40k real space drives for travel inside systems?

Well 40k writes do not understand numbers with more than two digits so I'm not surprise.
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>>53334396
The role of the Enterprise has always been changing as time and writers goes on. Sometimes it's a strictly military vessel, sometimes treated like a science ship, other times it's focused on diplomatic stuff.

Unrelated, but Star Fleet is all-volunteer, plus the Federation has a much higher standard of living. It shows with their much higher level of morale.

Their level of professionalism is called into question by the way writers keep flip-flopping on what the Prime Directive means and how much leeway captains are supposed to take with it. IMO that's kind of balanced out by the crew's devotion to whatever they see as their priority at the time, as well as a lack of corruption, defection, and organizational inefficiency.
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>>53355231
What we can all agree is that Star Wars has the worst fleet.
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>>53355208
>The fuck warp 9 is slower than 40k real space drives for travel inside systems?

Not to my knowledge. It's my understanding that traversing a star system can take hours or even days.

In the fourth Horus Heresy book, for example, the flight of the Eisenstein the Phalanx exits the warp on the edge of the Solar system and travels to Terra at 3/4 the speed of light. But it's also stated to arrive a couple of light-seconds inside the orbit of Eris, which is well inside the Oort cloud.

To Quote directly:

"Drives flaring like captured stars, the fortress-vessel passed in through the ragged edges of the Oort Cloud at three-quartes the speed of light"

Within the same passage, it comments that a black ship in orbit of Neptune joins the Phalanx on the way to Terra. Meaning the ship was able to accelerate up to 75% lightspeed relatively quickly.

In another HH book a very small planetary vessel is able to travel between Terra and Mars in just over a day using sublight engines which is pretty impressive.

It's my understanding that technology has not meaningfully advanced from the Horus Heresy to modern 40K, meaning that these speeds are probably typical of Imperium ships in the 41st Millenium. Which means they're drastically slower than Star Trek vessels.
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>>53355269
They're going sublight levels, which means they aren't going as fast as they want to because most of the time, these vessels are traveling through the warp if they want to cross the galaxy.

And traveling in the warp hosts an unnamed amount of problems. Why risk having your ship filled with demons just so you can skip a day or so of traveling?
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>>53355269
HH says it takes a year from terra to ultramar.
GS says it took less than month.

Unless we Ignore retarded writers 40k ships are faster than the HH ones.
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>>53355326
There's also the issue of drift, i.e., engage your warp drive in a star system and there's a real chance that when you come out of warp you'll end up smacking right into your target.

But the point is that the Anon I was replaying to tried to claim that the "real space" (i.e., non-warp) drive of an Imperium vessel is faster than a Starfleet warp drive. That is completely false.
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>>53355368
Ultramar is a different star system, so the Warp was involved and thus the speed difference could come down to any number of things. And again, the anon I was replying to was trying to state that the REAL SPACE drives of an Imperium ship are faster than a Starfleet warp drive at warp 9.

Kindly point out to me a time when, using its real space (not warp) drives, an Imperium vessel travelled 4.491 billion kilometers in 10 seconds. Hell, in 10 minutes.
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>>53355380
He is technically right, mostly because space travel in 40k works at plot speed, if ship needs to travel to the edge of the system in less than a second it will happen.

But for discussion sake we can say it takes a day to get from terra to the end of sol system in less than a day. Assuming no micro warp jump.
Yes some crazy bastards have used that crap to avoid shots.

Tau got a surprise when fighting IN ships, the massive craps are stupidly fast.
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>>53355421
One of the Cain books had ship darting across the system.

People said it before real space travel in 40k is all over the place.
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>>53352815
Absolutely delightful.
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>>53355126
Maybe he trades in makeup, did you consider that?!
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>>53355143
>>53355208
>>53355421
Distance from Earth to Neptune is 29 astronomical units or 14471.1 light seconds. Meaning it would take approximately 4 hours for light to travel that distance. If the Imperium had ships that could travel that far in real space in 10 seconds they would not need the warp.
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>>53355255
Well yeah.
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>>53355623
Bad writers anon. Space travel in 40k goes as fast as the writer needs it.
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>>53337154
Go fuck yourself you insufferable cunt.
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>>53351418

Ha ha Bashir's dad is in that
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>>53355143
Why keep up when you can simply do a small jump and arrive there effectively in an instant?
remember. it's not the same warp,in WH40K it's the literal hell they're driving thru while the ST warp is some kind of skimming at its borders - what Tau have.
On the other hand the SW hyperspace can be considered as the local webway.
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>>53351501
The entire point was to be rooty-tooty, just like the colonial marines in Aliens. Yell loudly while holding the trigger down. It's less about practicality and more about a fifteen year old doing a cool power trip. Did you not notice the QWERTY keyboards instead of cool future holograms and touch screens in the first game? That was part of the point, no matter how objectively bad that would all be irl.

Don't be a fag.
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>>53355368
Yes, but when you enter warp in 40K you're never sure if you will actually get out of it, or when if you do, and it's clearly stated in the lore that each travel will be different - time and space have no meaning there.
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>>53334496
npbp
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>>53355491
Glorious Tau ass
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>>53355987
>Why keep up when you can simply do a small jump and arrive there effectively in an instant?

Two reasons

1) The weapons don't allow for that. The original point was not a question of who'd win in a race, it's a question of whether or not 40K ship weapons can even actually hit a Starfleet vessel, given the Starfleet vessel's speeds.
2) 40K does not have FTL sensors and so has no accurate way of even detecting a Starfleet vessel moving at warp speed, let alone tracking or intercepting it.

>while the ST warp is some kind of skimming at its borders

No, because as you pointed out, it's not the same warp.

>what Tau have.

It's much better. The Tau Empire consists of about 115 star systems and is so small that it can't be seen on a galactic map, and this after at least a thousand years of expansion. Most of its 115 systems aren't habitable.

The Federation is eight thousand lightyears across (TNG movie First Contact), which is conveniently enough about 8% of the galaxy (since the galaxy is about 100,000 ly wide). If we presume the Federation is a rough sphere 8,000 ly in diameter, and a stellar density about that of the Solar neighborhood (0.004 per cubic light year), then we learn that the Federation has about 1,072,000,000 star systems in its bounds. In TOS "Balance of Terror", McCoy states "in this galaxy, there's a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets" (referring to planets where humanoid life has evolved). Given that almost every star has at least one planet and there are about 200-400 billion stars in the Milky Way, this means that between .0015% and .00075% of all planets have humanoids, meaning the Federation has between 8,040 to 16,080 humanoid planets in its bounds by the time of First Contact (2373). Since the Federation was founded in 2161, this means that in 212 years the Federation has managed to grow to between 70 to 140 times the size that the Tau Empire has in far longer a time frame.
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>>53356357
>this means that in 212 years the Federation has managed to grow to between 70 to 140 times the size that the Tau Empire has in far longer a time frame.

For the record, by the way, this was comparing the number of humanoid-supporting planets in the Federation to TOTAL number of planets in the Tau Empire. If we compare direct star-system to star-system then the Federation is by several orders of magnitude larger.
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>>53356357
Incidentally, this math is actually a little off as the Galaxy may be 100,000 ly across, but it is on average only about 1,000 ly thick, so it's unlikely that the Federation is a, 8,000 ly sphere.

If we presume that the Federation is instead a rough cylinder that's 8,000 ly across and 1,000 ly thick (since I can't imagine why the Federation wouldn't expand "up and down" as far as it could while also expanding coreward and rimward), then instead we have a total volume of about 50,300,000,000 light years, which given the Solar neighborhood stellar density of .004 stars per cubic ly, would place 201,200,000 stars inside of its bounds, and thereby (again using McCoy's statement and the estimated total number of stars in the Galaxy) would mean the Federation has between 1,509 - 3,018 humanoid worlds within its bounds. Which is still far and away larger than the Tau Empire.
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How many times are we going to have this thread and come to the conclusion that every setting is bullshit with no real points of comparison?
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>>53356498

The only setting that matters is which setting encourages the most nerdy girls to cosplay
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>>53356527
I like your way of thinking.
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>>53351418
Honestly looks more like Star Trek than Discovery.
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>>53356577

MOAR

I had no idea there as 40K cosplay
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>>53356885
She has a Facebook page. Look for Okkido cosplay.

Also Banshee cosplay. No idea who it is thou
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>>53356947

Looks like I had Okkido's page bookmarked all ready as part of my "Work Research"

Now someone needs to cosplay as a 40K battle Nun who had to rush out to battle in the middle of the night in just the virginal white under armor skintight body sock
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>>53357164
One thing I like about overwatch is those sweet Widowmaker cosplay.

The world needs more skintight body gloves.

World violence would be reducing in 31,4%
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>>53356885
>I had no idea there as 40K cosplay
ar ya serus
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>>53333720
Yeah.

It's awesome.
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>>53334496
Sounds about accurate. Although I'm hesitant to put any Imperial ship, even space marine, above anything from Star Trek.
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>>53336533
>someone on this website actually knows what the word fascist means and can use it correctly
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>>53357253

Even Classic BSG had one training scene with the female pilots in space long johns. Cause that is a real thing in space Long Underwear with cooling tubes under the space suit
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>>53357318

When TNG was about to come out Gene Rottonberry lied to us and said the crew would have a "Half Klingon Federation Marine"
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>>53333617
Slaves can't be professional and Imperium of Man ships are mostly that.
SW Imperial ships are highly professional between enlisted, NCO, and lower officers but higher officers are a bunch of egotistical cunts who murder their fucking subordinates for mistakes.
I don't know much about Federation ships and how the behavior of officers changed over the course of the seasons.
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>>53357395
I'm really not too disappointed to hear that, Worf wasn't exactly a bad character.
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>>53357420

Only thing bad about Worf was they tried to cram to many hats on him and he was doing like 4 jobs like he was a space Jamaican and each of the job tracks was a full specialty.

Tactical Officer
Lt of Guns (In charge of all repair and upkeep of the ship weapons)
Head of Security and on board AND Away
JAG (Investigating crimes)
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>>53357415
Civilian Imperial ships have slaves. Navy ships have proper crews

Stop mixing those up.
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>>53357544
>Navy ships have proper crews
And slaves to load the macrocannons and generally do every kind of work maintaining the thing since autoloaders and other such devices are near exclusively on mechanicus ships.
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>>53357544

Right in WH40K Gravy Traders have slave crews
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>>53357582
Wrong. Those are for RT ships.
The macro cannon loader with slaves is from the RT rpg books for fuck sake

Navy have the proper trained crews.
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>>53357582
Autoloaders are not a Mechanicus only thing.

Rich Rogue Traders can get those too.




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