What is with the hateboner that some people have for homebrewing?For context, I had a player quit my group last night because the dragon I had them fight wasn't sentient and didn't have a type.
I could think of reasons the player might be in the right and reasons you might be in the right, but the details make all the difference here.The biggest reasons I dislike homebrewing is just because most people are really bad at it
In your case, metagaming faggots go full autism when they see a new creature and they don't know AC, HP and the likes.Otherwise Homebrews tend to be overpowered or overly niche shit.
>>54375227thishomebrews are 9/10 times one of those two cases, sometimes bothbut i like them because it fucks with metagaming autists
>>54375165>The dragon can't be reasoned with and fucked instead of killing itSurest sign of an absolute shit-tier DM desu, I'd quit too
>>54375165Perception of lack of balance, usually. Many horror stories of poorly balanced races, amongst other things. Although in your specific example it seems like your player might be autistic. Or metagaming. Or both.
>>54375165I'm going to guess that it's a combination of several things but mainly that gaming companies, to the common player, are automatically assumed to be better at creating RPG content than your average joe schmoe DM or player. Which leads to people getting upset that you're giving them an inferior 'product' even if it's just on a subconscious level.Also many players like to read up on everything associated with a game and throwing in some homebrew is something that they can't read up on before hand, leaving the knowledge they've put so much effort into mastering going to waste because it's no longer applicable. Basically you're breaking the 'rules' and thus forcing your players onto their back foot which they are often not prepared for at all which upsets them.
A lot of the tabletop community hates creativity and deviation from standard fantasy or just what they expect. Combine that with the fact thatr a lot of homebrew (for D&D at least) tends to be rather bad or poorly balanced or bizarre in tone, and you get the recipe for disaster
>>54375257The vast majority of shitty homebrew are character class stuff. I don't see how that would "fuck with metagaming austists" unless it's some absurdly overpowered that it ruins the game. Never mind that your motivation is kind of pathetic
>>54375165Most homebrew sucks and is about ego or dick-stroking.>I had a player quit my group last night because the dragon I had them fight wasn't sentient and didn't have a type.Obviously, this isn't the full story.What you have done is, instead, parceled out a tiny portion of the story, because tightly controlling the information we get is more likely to get you the positive attention you've posted here because you're craving.That behavior? That's why no one likes homebrew.That and 'cuz it often sucks.
>>54375306This is fucking stupid.In all seriousness fuck anyone who demands every game be a tolkein flavored meatgrinder and nothing more.Also fuck anyone who limits races to human, short human or thin human. Have some fucking imagination.
>>54375410Would you like an essay?
>>54375297This is the crux of it. The OSR community has long since achieved enlightenment and a lot of tables will run a mishmash of 2+ systems with a shitload of homebrew and houserules without anyone batting an eye - the systems accommodated homebrew better to begin with, there was little to no new "official" content for years before the community caught momentum, and all the people who really cared about that stuff moved to newer editions.Contrast to 5e, where many players all but physically puke at the mention of homebrew - even if the system is barely supported, it's new and they still prefer to wait for official content, which is monthly releases of whatever the devs picked from between their teeth and a book or two per year. This is despite there being an official platform for homebrew
>>54375429You're making a lot of assumptions to that post out of fucking nowhere, but in general I disagree that a lizard-human is fundamentally more creative than a thin-magic-human or a short-human, and instead they just don't look as stupid
>>54375227>overly nicheFound the pleb. Enjoy your generic fantasy shit, pleb.
>>54375455we'd like the honest story
>>54375457That has not been my experience with 5e at all, but I am also not in any hardcore D&D communities.My DM just lets us use anything he doesn't think is too op, and we don't min max.
>>54375429I feel the same way. I get that it's a little more work to try to get across to your players what your setting's races are like, but that can also be a good thing. Unusual or created races mean that they won't be coming to them with preconceived notions that may not be true for your elves/dwarves/etc. Besides, it's fiction. Who wants to just rip off other people's ideas?
>>54375165This is a more common complaint among people who view rpgs as games to be beaten, and D&D is specifically made for those people. Given that I'd say you weren't in the wrong necessarily, but your players probably should have been informed about that shit like that could happen.Any other system and I'd have called the players shiteating retards, no questions asked.
>>54375457I'm no Buddhist, but I'm pretty sure the last step to "enlightenment" is fucking off
>>54375410>random unreasoning hateboner for homebrew>has to pull a "o-o-obviously you're not telling the whole story" to feel safe in his opinion>non-sequiturs that to why people don't like homebrewYeah, nah. You're a moron.
>>54375482We'll have to agree to disagree then, but I would like to posit that midgets exist in real life and lizardmen don't, so lizardmen are inherently more creative than short humans in my humble opinion.
I feel as most of the responses are bate. Except for the ones who aren't arguing like autists. But /TG/ do as you do.
>>54375429Don't get me wrong, I love tolkien-esque high fantasy, but seriously have some imagination. It's like people forget that role-playing is an interactive story created from the mind of the dm and the players. It's literally created on the base of the DM creating a world.
>>54375497It doesn't matter if your DM is cool with it and you don't tangle with the broader rpg community, but even right here on /5eg/ reception towards the usage of homebrew is almost always negative
>>54375165Homebrew feels wrong.Gamers tend to operate off gut instinct and tummyfeels.Homebrew gives bad tummyfeels, so homebrew is bad.
>>54375529I was being facetious, anon. No need to get your booty flustered
>Get a quest to slay a red dragon>Spend a good amount of time hashing out a plan, gathering info, buying gear, etc.>I drop a lot on a REALLY good potion of fire resistance and some magic arrows to ground it.>Track the foul beast to it's lair>IT_IS_TIME.tap>Get blasted with acid by a burrowing flightless "dragon">GM: Dragons in my setting are flightless diggers with different breath weapons! Aren't my subversions clever?>It's apparently common knowledge that we were never told about in-character or out-of-character.>All our planning was a waste of time and resources while the GM smugly sat on his side of the screen and never once felt like clueing us in on something that's common knowledge in the setting.
>>54375286>The otyugh can't be reasoned with and fucked instead of killing itSurest sign of an absolute shit-tier DM desu, I'd quit too
>>54375482Well generally you have to flesh out lizard people a little more, which makes them more interesting. A lot of people will take the traditional fantasy races and say "oh they're elves you know what they're like" or " these are like dwarves but have golden eyes and talons!", and rely on fantasy tropes to fill in the blanks
>>54375573Wtaf m8 u wot
>>54375494This is /tg/, OP could give us pictures, diagrams, audio recordings, and a 500 word essay on how much of an ass his player was, and we'd still call it fake.
>>54375165Almost every game I've ever played had a bunch of homebrewed stuff in it. Everyone I've ever played with treated the stuff in the published books as examples to base your own stuff on.I mean, it's a creative hobby. I guess some people are bad at homebrewing, so some might have had bad experiences. But really, if you're doing anything other than playing published modules exactly as written, you're homebrewing.
>>54375602Not siding with your dm but im about 60/40 on who's fault this actually isAt anypoint you could have turned and said "yo can i make a lore check on the strengths/weakeness of this dragon as i have a bunch of time and money to gather said information"But he is a dick for not saying shit that would be 100% obvious to your characters after a lot of fucking time and assumed information gathering
>>54375494I'm running a 3.5 campaign with some friends, and pulled in another guy from the shop we frequent. Before he even rolled a character, I told him that I was a low-fsntasy setting and that I was forgoing a lot of what was already established in favor of homebrew. He agreed to this. In the opening, a dragon attacks the starting city, but it's driven off using ballistas. The viscount offers any willing men money and land if they track it down and finish it off before it can nurse itself back to health and come back for round two. During the fight, I threw the playbook out of the window to avoid having a long, boring, drawn out roll fest. Instead, I tried inserting some cinematic flair by having the dragon tail whip people, breathe fire at the group (prompting a reflex save), etc. Before the fight even began, the player in question tried to reason with it, even after being told that the dragon was bestial, because "dragons are intelligent creatures."So, assuming that a wounded dragon would likely lash out at anything that got too close, I had the player roll a reflex save to avoid the fire. He failed, but passed the fort save, so he didn't outright die. He declared that it was bullshit homebrew, because dragons are conventionally sentient, etc. After the session, he said he wouldn't be back.
>>54375165When creating a UNIVERSE perhaps the hardest thing to make you need to be pretty fucking smart to have it not be contradictory and shit. And people are fucking stupid. Also magical realm
>>54375565You give a shit when /tg/ hates something? How do you play anything?Take the feedback and input but some nameless faggots on the internet shouldn't stop you from liking something.
>>54375721even if the dragon was sentient does he think he is gonna diplomacy a fucking dragon on session 1?
>>54375745This was four sessions in, to be fair.
I feel like it's due 3.pf, which was and is awash in bad homebrew and third party nonsense. I'm pretty sure everyone who ever played either game had someone bring some inane or overpowered bull to the table. I know I did. I even liked some of it, but looking back a lot of it was goddawful and I could see how it would sour someone on itThere are also a lot of people who paradoxically try to do ttrpgs by the book with no deviations, so obviously shit you made yourself goes against their sola scriptura attitude
>>54375721I can see the mix-up there, was he told the dragon was bestial in-character? And even if he wasn't "bestial" does not concretely confirm it is not sapient, he might have been holding out that what he was told was wrong as he "knew" how dragons work.Either way I bet you can still patch things up by asking how you could do better or what he wants to see in the campaign. If you guys can come to an agreement on the expectations of the encounters I'm sure things can be worked out.
>>54375755>4 sessions in Oh man that really changes everything good thing by session 4 everybody is level 10 and has the abillity to charm a injured reclusive creature into calming down while its literaly still being fired onIf that guy attempts to come back dont let him i would have given him a chance if and its a huge ifHe managed to first calm down the towns people from literaly firing on himWhich would be a fucking check in its own right that they have no reason to agree to
>>54375745If the dragon is a young one already grievously wounded I could see it being convinced.
>>54375165>I had a player quit my group last night because the dragon I had them fight wasn't sentient and didn't have a type.good riddance to them, I'm a firm believer that the rules shouldn't get in the way of fun.To answer you question tho some people like to know everything about the monster, and become annoyed when they don't know it's weakness and or ability's.Or they where molested by a home-brewer.
>>54375840It sounds like it retreated and was at it's lair, not mid combat
>>54375617I wonder how much work it'd take to scrub all the filth from one.
>>54375165So a drake, wyvern, linhorn or any of the 1001 dumb dragons? why is that "homebrewing"?
>>54375721Nothing of value was lost.
>>54375858Yeah i just realized thatStillGravely wounded from balistasAttacked a town for Seemingly no reason bunch of armored fags show up and are like "yo wanna do diplomacy and shit"
>>54375721Was the PC stupid? did he know dragons are non sentient in your setting?Here comes another problem of "homerules", GMs don't mention them beforehanded and players stumble into them the bad way>Oh sorry, I know you rolled a rogue, but this game is full constructs, undeads, plants, oozes and elementals. No, you can't change. What? why are you like that? this is my homerule
>>54375736>You give a shit when /tg/ hates something? I don't, but I'm answering to the topic at hand, which is why people a lot of people don't like homebrew
>>54375721ah, I see. he thought he(the player) knew better his character.>que the "Don't mix OOC and IC. Ever." debate.
>>54375486Enjoy being a special snowflake, shit ord.
>>54375883Sure.Like "Yo, bro, we know you're a budding red eager to prove yourself but ya can't be taking such risks dawg, there's better ways of going about this than attacking at random. Why don't you pretend to be the kingdom's ally for a couple hundred years, knock over caravans of the next kingdom over and get gold from them and tribute from the king for his "protection." That way you get a steady supply of gold and everyone thinks you're a badass for setting wagons on fire. They're like thatched roof cottages but have more valuable stuff inside!"
>>54375897The term is houserule, friend
>>54375985Maybe is a flat, or a loft
>>54375975thats actually a really good plan butthey still most likely went in 100% armoured id have sent in the base tankiest person without arms or armor but who is not the main tankto barter properly i doubt this dragon was exactly the smartest one but that is a great offer
>>54376136You can be armored but still have weapons sheathed and at a distance to talk rather than strike.
>>54375286w-why do I have a boner?Why do I want to put my hand on its head?
>>54376115>>54376136When you want to fuck dragons you often think about how to keep those greedy fucks alive and not on a path of self destruction.They certainly do not make it easy most of the time, but it makes the smarter ones all the more appealing.Speaking of dragons and homebrew, I always get rid of metallic dragons and make chromatic dragon alignment dependant on the individual dragon. I also make it so the smarter dragons usually spent their early years being raised by a wizard of some type, perhaps as a familiar, though some were failed students or learned how the world works on their own.I also never let them have the power to shapeshift, both because this is my magical realm and I think that creatures so defined by greed and vanity should view their true form as the perfect representation of themselves, and implications that they would be better suited by another form is a fucking insult.>"What do you mean, I cannot fit in the doors of the grand hall? I was under the impression that accomodations would be made for your most esteemed guest, my 'friend'..."
>>54375897If I was the GM in that case, I'd allow sneak attacks on said creatures that don't allow sneak attacks.How does it work? Well you're still finding a weak point and striking it. Maybe he'd gain the ability after fighting them for a while.
>>54375286>>The dragon can't be reasoned with and fucked instead of killing it
Holy shit, 99% of my game is homebrew. There are some very basic assumptions (elves dwarves humans, undead, magic, gunpowder, late medieval) but then the whole world and it's inhabitants are Homebrew. The players knew this going in and helped me flesh out the world as it went. Session zero and a few weeks thereafter were world building. Each of the players asked background questions, and I answered on the fly, writing as I went. More rules about how magic worked were set down the day a wizard joined, than in any other day of play.And they love it so far.A year of play, and the only hiccup was a guy asking about Dwarven burial rites and 500 year old history.Holy shit. Maybe it's just because this is a gurps game but fuck you guys, Homebrew rocks
>>54376600Take yourself and your double dubs to /trash/ and look for the scalie thread.
>>54375721You're fine. Player's a bitch. Sounds like they didn't like homebrew because it was counter to their metagaming expectations. People try to talk to wild animals and get fucked up all the time.
>>54375745>>54375840Diplomacy is not a charm spell.
>>54376686>not patting the dragonYou're not new here too, are you?
>>54376796You can pat many dragons there, my melanin enriched compatriot
>>54376639>while he is distracted, I stab him with my sword.
>>54375539That anon had a perfectly valid reason to argue, even while being a massive jerk.You see, it's fine calling upon your wisdom and experiences to provide insight into a problem, but OP quite clearly provided a minimal info; just the fact that a player had left because of a single homebrew change. Sure, getting mad about one homebrew change seems and totally is dumb, but what we cannot tell from what the OP said is:>Was it the only homebrew rule that player raged about?>Did simply mentioning the rule cause the player to leave there and then right on the spot as it came from OPs mouth or was there a set of events leading up to it?>Was the player even made aware of the homebrew rules before starting the game and encountering the dragon?Without this information, it looks cherrypicked as hell. We can't say if the OP is being genuine or is actually hiding the truth just so they can get a whole load of aprovals from these anons that OP has never met.So we should always ask for more information when we need it if we want to offer our insight, otherwise we risk offering the wrong advice to the wrong people.This is what asking for more information can look like:>>54375721And there we have it. We now know the player knew about homebrew before the session began. We now know the player left after a single session. A bunch more can be taken from this expand that a bunch of other anons have now given insight on.OPs 721 answer could all be made up, sure, but going off what we have and assuming OP isn't lying, we can now give better feedback and answer OPs question more wisely and less loosely.And remember: Just because someone writes or speaks like a massive asshole, doesn't mean they're wrong to probe. OP knew that.
>>54376787dragons have giant fucking bonuses to their saves and im mildly sure past a certain age they are immune to charm spells like most other things
>>54375486Oh, I will.
>>54377001Yeah, nah. You're a tryhard.See, what I was calling anon out for wasn't asking for more info, it was flipping in spite of having inadequate info, and then for illogically connecting the concept of a cherry-picked story with all homebrewers and saying that's why people hate homebrew.So yeah, he's a moron, and you're a tryhard.
>>54377176>he's a moron, and you're a tryhardAnd you're an asshole, and I'm a fool for even answering you.
>>54375227>In your case, metagaming faggots go full autism when they see a new creature and they don't know AC, HP and the likes.It sounds like bullshit, but it's true. In 20+ years of D&D I've met four of them, and they quit groups for similar reasons. They treat this shit like a videogame, and react like the DM is cheating when something's stats don't match what they memorized in the Monster Manual.>Otherwise Homebrews tend to be overpowered or overly niche shit.This is also true. I've found homebrew stuff is very rarely balanced, but it's just as likely to swing toward underpowered as it is to overpowered.
>>54375602>moving through a forest, our paladin falls into a pitfall trap>DM:you take X fall damage, and now you're covered in dirt. What'cha gonna do now?>P:well, no biggie, can I get out of it?>DM:Sure.>Rogue: I'll throw a rope down there>DM: Nah, it's not that deep>P:Then I'll climb out of it>DM: Come on, guys>P: uuh... is the dirt too loose to climb?>DM:Really?>R: I offer my hand to pull him out>DM: I can think of, like, 4 different ways to get out of there and all you're doing is this>P: We're doing what we can with what we're given, how big is the hole?>DM: ugh, whatever, the paladin gets out of the hole, move onEvery time this happens I feel like I lose a little piece of myself
>>54376639I have barded this way and I make no apologies for it.
>>54380046>dm cries later while stroking perfectly drawn picture of a 3 foot deep hole
>>54375286Daily reminder that scalies are just smug furries.
i often see people with not much creativety thinking that rpg's are strict ruled games. i think it is related
>>54380639Absolutely.There's a sort of person that is extremely authoritarian that seems to think that if it's not from the word of god (in this case wizards or paizo) it shouldn't be allowed, up to and including stuff that's not on your sheet (I.E. Ziplining isn't a skill so you can't do it.)
>>54375721Wait, the dragon had a "save or die" breath weapon? Yeah. I would have walked too. And you said earlier it didn't have a type... was that because he tried to cast a spell on it that would have helped and you rule 0'd it because you're an asshole? Or so you could prevent him from rolling the lore skill he took with his skill points?And was this "cinematic flair" random out-of-action attacks by the dragon while he was in the middle of his full attack sequence? I still think it's 70/30 you're the fuckwit, not him.
>>54375814the most broken shit in 3.5 is all in the phb tho
>>54375165As long as you make it work in setting, and still have dragons be awesome dangerous things to fight, I'm cool. Non-sentient isn't really my thing, but I can work with typeless as long as they're badass.If you're not hyping the dragon enough before the fight tho, I'm probably out. If a dragon drops out of the sky on the party and my first thought is not "JESUS CHRIST RUN" you fucked up.
>>54375201I'm way late, but /thread
>>54375721I'm unsure if you've fucked the combat up or went razzle dazzle with the rules. I can understand someone being angry at combat rules being used wrong. Don't mess with the base combat rules or very early warn that you're going to, because players that like combat usually know the rules and plan their shit accordingly. If you mess with the combat, the whole imaginary world/game becomes hostile, scary and unknown to them, and this isn't what you want (they usually want the joyride not the grind).Combats are usually long drawn out diceroll fests because HP; and that's just the short story. HP is a barrier between states alive and dead, in a way it could be a "round timer" of how much time something has to live in an average combat session. If the party does average20damage, a 100 hp creature is expected to last for 5 rounds. Sometimes luck happens sometime shit happens, but a 100hp creature should last at least 2 rounds and at most 8 rounds vs. avg20dpr party. Amount of actors in the combat also drastically increases round times; 8 rounds of higher level 3.5 can last 5+ hours with 6 players and 8 monsters on the mat.If you want faster fights you need to lower all HP or play enemies that retreat, not drastically change combats. You might've given the dragon two plays in a single round or gave him one too many actions, but I wouldn't understand if you've done so because you've tipped the scale in the drake's favor (the scale should always be slightly tipped towards the PCs). This could've been the thing that triggered your player. He could've been a softie too, I don't know. All I know is that messing with base rules can butterfly effect fuck with everything else you do. sorry for wallotext
>>54375817>was he told the dragon was bestial in-character?This is idiotic. In character, nobody without knowledge of dragons would likely assume they were sapient in a million years. It's only meta knowledge that would drive them to do that, if he ignored that he's simply a moron.
>>54375617Living in an Otyugh den for a month qualifies you for a free Iron Will Feat, so it's probably impossible.
>>54377238You're a cool person
We don't have the full story, but I'd say that it was definitely in the players court to not make assumptions about the setting, to ask questions about what their character would know, and to adapt based on what they should have "already" known. I do dragons way, way way different than the standard tropes but I've had multiple people fight some, and one guy be a dragon slayer as his character concept, and it went fine. They asked questions both before and during the encounter, and I tried my best to make it clear what sort of thing they're dealing with
>>54380844From my reading of what he said, I think the guy just had low HP and took enough damage from the breath weapon to go to 0 and start dying. As for not having a type, OP may have just not wanted a rainbow coalition of dragons all with different effects and weaknesses. I can't vouch for the 'cinematic' nature of the fight, though it's a really far stretch to assume that it would be while someone else is in the middle of their turn.From the sound of everything, the DM made Dragons in his settings your typical beastly drake or wyvern, and then his player got upset because he metagamed that these Dragons were Dragons and not what he was told. While the way the DM handled the fight itself or the strength of the dragon compared to the PC's abilities might have been a factor, it's impossible to know why the guy really left.Since the other players didn't seem to have a problem with the combat system though, and presumably the rest of the fight went fine and it wasn't a TPK, I'd say the more reasonable conclusion is that he was indeed upset that the Dragon they fought wasn't what was in the monster manual.
>>54377085what don't be sillythis is d&d, which as we all know, is garbagea level 3 wizard can destroy everything and we have to invent rules because the rulebook doesn't explain how to do anything.
>>54375602>no character rolled knowledge nature>no character rolled knowledge arcana>no character looked for sages or scholars to seek their opinions if they didn't pass their checks>just assumed it breathed fireSo the GM punked you for being a meta-gaming fag. I'm not seeing the bad side.
>>54381644Rarely is the kind of GM who's all up their own ass about their homebrews actually that even-handed with their players. Oftentimes they'll twist rules so that players have an artificial dearth of information, or just break the rules of the game in nonsensical ways for the sake of doing so. I see no reason to put so much faith in OP.
>>54375165most people dont like homebrew monster because they tend to be unbalanced. oftentimes, in a system that is already not that balanced in the first place.homebrewing is also a shortcut for: looking into a bestiary is TOO HARD so im gonna vomit numbers super quick in my head. players end with monsters half created, unbalanced and not defined
>>54381826Yeah. Unless my GM contributed to dicefreaks back in the day I'm unlikely to trust their grasp of the 3.X mechanics.
>>54375297I don't get this at all. My character isn't going to be intimately familiar with every creature and monster in the world. Why should I? There no reason I as a player need to have memorized it's stats, the GM has them there, all I need to know is, does the attack land or not, does it prove effective, and how hard did it just hit me? If my character gets killed because I didn't memorize information I would only be able to put to use by metagaming, so be it. As long as I memorize my own stats, how the system actually works, and can make lore/common knowledge checks to find out things my character should already know, that's all that should be necessary.>>54375704Is this not how we're supposed to do it? Jeez, every group I've ever played in has been doing it wrong for years.>>54375817Did he need to be? Sometimes you've gotta roll with the punches. There could be any number of explanations for why this particular dragon is different even if you're playing in a setting where all dragons are supposed to be sentient. Maybe it's got some rare plague or disorder that only effects it's kind and drives it into a frenzy. Maybe it's some mutation for whatever reason. Maybe it was dropped on it's head as an egg. Either way whatever the case would be the PC's would have no way of knowing or real need to, fact is it's an aberrant in some way that isn't really important or relevant. Deal and get back to the game.
>>54375721So basically>Gets told he playing in a heavily homebrewed setting.>Agrees to it.>Gets told flat out that this dragon is not sentient.>Ignores it and tries to apply metagame information that is not relevant to the setting he is playing in.>Gets mad that metagame information from a different setting is not accurate in this one despite the fact he was clearly told this.>Does not simply accept GM ruling, move on, and enjoy the game.>Throws a hissy fit because he can't handle things not going his way.Christ, if I had a player do this I'd be glad to hear them say they wouldn't be back. Rule 0 is a thing for a reason. If you're a player, you need to respect the GM and the other players. You might not agree with their ruling, and you don't have to, but you accept it and move on, you don't chuck a tantrum and ruin everyone else's night over it.
>>54375714>making a lore check on something that is supposed to be COMMON FUCKING KNOWLEDGEYeah sure.
>>54375165I don't understand this either. Homebrew is the life and soul of tabletop RPGs. If our DM didn't homebrew settings, monsters, items, NPCs, etc. we would have all stopped playing long ago. It adds variety and helps everyone immerse.Personally I like to know as little as possible about an enemy - knowing the exact AC and HP is bullshit metagaming and I would prefer to learn the hard way. I would never go through the monster manual memorizing ACs and special abilities and anyone who does is a shit-tier metagamer (unless they are doing it for DM purposes which is fine).I think your player was more focused on the meta than actual roleplaying. I'm sure he won't be missed. Find someone who can actually get in the head space of their character and will never think "Why does this enemy do X or Y or not have Z?" but rather - "how do we deal with this threat?"
>>54383548Sperglords.had a player who literally froze up when he couldn't recognize a monster.DESPITE capabilities of monster being demonstrated, repeatedly, earlierDESPITE NPC hunter giving them info on said monster.From what i understood, he interpreted my "yeah, this campaign will have custom stuff" to "nothing matters and i will change monsters' stats on a whim just to fuck with you personally".Like, holy shit, Steve, this was supposed to be fun activity, not your trust issues playground.
>>54383548>>54383650Tabletop RPGs attract autistic people. Autistic people are very fixated on following the rules to the letter because that's how they cope with the world. They can't handle improvisation or the subtleties of normal human interaction, so instead they take refuge in hard and fast rules that are much easier to deal with. Not following those rules basically throws their entire existence into chaos and causes them to panic because they don't understand anything that is going on around them. Basically, if you don't follow the rules, or you make stuff up as you go along, to an autistic person it's akin to murdering someone right in front of them.
>>54383650That's the nature of improv with dice rolling. If things don't go your way you are left wondering why you are spending four hours with a GM who gives no fucks about how you want to play. A big issue is when the GM starts running custom stuff, it leaves the player in a situation of not having a clear picture of what's going on, so a game of fighting dragons becomes a game of poking snowflake baddies to figure out how to kill them, made all the worse by the GM abusing their position of absolute knowledge versus a player's total ignorance. Compound that with GM's tendencies to think a problem should be resolved this way or that, and players get upset when their novel solutions are either conveniently ignored or their character's actions are invalidated because they didn't do the right thing.
>>54375165Only extreme autists who should quit RPGs immediately are against homebrewing. Anyone with a lick of sense realizes that homebrewing is the very essence of RPGs, not just allowed but expected, to the point that no DM should use any official material after he's out of the learning phase.
>>54375410Fucking destroyed op, jeez
>>54383700Thankfully I've never had to game with people like this.
>>54383929My homebrew is always documented tho. Which is autism in itself.
>>54380046The fuck was he expecting? It's a HOLE; one of the simplest problems in the world! Rope, climbing or hand are all perfectly fucking acceptable ways to get out; there is no need for a complicated solution when a simple one works!God almighty I want to punch your GM in the head!>>54381744When someone says 'dragon', it comes with certain expectations. We expect a large, winged, firebreathing reptile that hordes gold and/or kidnaps princesses and maidens. This is what everyone in the western world expects, unless they are playing a game set in Asia, when they expect a serpent-like divine beast, potentially with power over the weather and possessed of some heavenly wisdom.If I make my 'dragon' a 20-foot-long hairless bunny rabbit that attacks with a sonic scream and that eats rocks, then the players are not going to fucking think it's a fucking dragon! Further, if literally EVERYONE IN THE SETTING believes that is what a dragon IS, then the CHARACTERS have no reason to expect the fire-breathing oversized handbag! If NO CLUES are given and the players act on what knowledge they have, in spite of their characters supposedly knowing better, that is the fault of the GM for not providing BASIC FUCKING INFORMATION.
>>54375227In fairness, having a creature act radically different from the established norm is different from just fudging a few stats, and players can be perfectly justified in being annoyed if you spring it on them out of nowhere. In the vast majority of tabletop settings it's common knowledge that dragons are highly intelligent, if your setting is different then it's something the PCs would know from the very start.Would you call your players metagaming faggots for being surprised that orcs breathe fire and have mind control powers in your setting?
>>54375227>overly niche shitThat's exactly when the homebrew is needed. You don't want your game fill all your niche-shit needs; that leads to a bloated system.
>>54381744>So the GM punked you for being a meta-gaming fag.No, the GM willfully withheld information that the characters would have had access to and then punished the players for it while being a smug asshole about it.Giving everyone in your class an F because you tested them on 15th century literature when they all signed up for a trigonometry class doesn't make them bad students, it makes you a bad teacher, especially if you never taught them this information nor thought to mention what was going to be on the test beforehand.
>>54375721>I'm running a 3.5 campaignThe player is better off having left.
>>54387471Why would your characters know anything about dragons?His point is entirely valid: your group has no skills that make it logical to conclude they know about monster ecology.Nor did they consult with anyone who would know about monster ecology.The GM isn't there to save you from your own stupidity, anon.This reminds me of the autistic fuck who freaked out because I use Japanese kobolds in my setting. He couldn't grok to the different monster ecologies and freaked out that kobolds didn't "obviously serve dragons."Went home crying, never saw him again.
>>54390700This isn't "ecology", this is basic superficial facts. If you live in a country that has bears, you might not know their diets or mating habits, but you bloody well know if they have WINGS or not.
>>54391645Do you know which bears can climb trees and to which height?Because that's a more equivalent sort of detail.Most people couldn't tell you that black bears can climb almost the entirety of a tree without significant problems, just like most people couldn't tell you a grizzly isn't likely to make it more than 25 feet off the ground.
>>54391788Anon, the detail we're talking about here is "dragons in my settings don't have wings and burrow underground". That is on a very different level to "how good are they at climbing".
>>54392196Wasn't the discussion originally about a dragon being feral?
>>54392238Not for this chain of posts. This is about >>54375602.
>>54391788>Do you know which bears can climb trees and to which height?No, but I can tell you what one generally looks like from memory and whether or not they have wings or breathe fire.
>>54375165When you are going by book rules it's established and they have a reference point.When you are pulling it out of your ass it means it's easy to slip into THAT GM territory when things don't go your way.