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what game is better warmachine or warhammer 40k???
>>
Warmachine has a more mature fan base and is more tactically nuanced. There's endless combos to learn how to utilize and deal with. You have to carefully position guys, whereas 40K just rewards clumping them around your leader.
>>
What game is better? Warmachine. What hobby is better? Probably 40k unless you're REAAAALLY into steam punk robots.
Privateer Press is a gaming company. GW is a model company.
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>>54830855
>Warmachine has a more mature fan base

PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR
>>
>>54830868
You proved his point by being a 40kid sperg.
Well played.

Warhams players don't really do that. Not to the point of the obnoxious children screaming waagh in GWs anyway.
>>
>Friend runs a battlebox demo for me
>Turn 2
>His caster uses an earthquake ability that knocks down my warjacks
>No kind of save whatsoever
>His guys all shoot my caster
>Apparently he can't crouch behind the GIANT ROBOT because it's tipped over
>He dies
>My units stop working, I lose

I never played the game again. It's just not fun to play some cutthroat CCG with miniatures as props IMO
>>
>>54830903
In my store at least, all the autistic kids flocked to warmahordes and got in screaming matches over rules and distance. all the 40k players were just 35 year old dudes that took a night away from the wife and kids to play army men.
>>
Dark Age.
>>
Setting 40k wins massively
Your dudes 40k wins massively
Models 40k wins massively
Good baseline rules warmachine wins massively, however the degree of gameyness in warmachine is a bit much for my tastes in a lot of ways
>>
40k has a much better aesthetic. WM just looks cartoony and goofy.
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>>54831075
I agree that Warmahordes is goofy and up there with Wow as far as ridiculous pauldrons, but 40k is just as goofy. The Canon way orks talk, the fact that csm are just spiky edgemarines. Power fists the size of VW busses. Both settings crank the camp up to 11.
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>>54831004
>anecdotal autism
wew
>>
>>54831109
You are both using anecdotal evidence
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>>54831119
Well not really since my evidence of 40kiddies was his post in all caps sperging out.

So my reply was a direct correlation to the previously posted comment making it not anecdotal at all since the comment is right there.

btfo.
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play Age of Sigmar, it's the true wargame for chads and other successful people

mostly see mature 20/30 something year olds playing AoS, and none have been fat neckbeards so far

can't say the same for either warmachine or 40k
>>
You can't your dudes warmachine

That's a dealbreaker for me.
>>
>>54831104
Yeah. I suppose it's just that it's a flavor of stupid that I like. I prefer album cover metal hurlant gothic over WoW LoL steampunk. I also don't care for the fact that warjacks look like imperial knights given a Blizzard makeover and severe scoliosis
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>>54831151
that is exactly what anecdotal evidence is. You are basing a group of people on personal experience with a single poster. The same could be said to people who post the same on the other side.
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>>54831171
Jokes on you! I'm a fat neckbeard and I play AoS!
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>>54831171
Makes sense people that don't like the hobby would play the most shallow game ever farted put of an executive's anus.
>>
>>54831229
40kids is a class of person.
You already fell into the trap.
>>
>>54830803
40k. Just compare their video games.
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>>54830803
Warmachine is a better game competitively, and I think it handles it's ongoing narrative much better, too. That said, 40k is a vastly superior hobby, as the personalization is leagues above that of PP's
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>>54830803
Kings of war for large battles, Lotr for skirmish.
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>>54831268
No its a term used on /tg/ to elicit an emotional response. You want a shit posting thread
>>
>>54830803

How would they NEVER just have their heads blown off. There's a MECH with a 1060 gun right behind him.
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>>54831104
40k is goofy in a direction though, and feels like it's serious in setting
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>>54831317
Worked.
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>>54831401
Of course it worked. Getting tg to argue about their game of choice is simple. The degree is another question.
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>>54830903
>screaming waagh in GWs anyway.
This picture pretty much describes my opinion of your attitude.
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>>54830868
>PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR
People I have played with do not have this attitude. That phrase is ingrained into the style of game with two armies charging into eachother basically. No tau sitting back and shooting type of stuff.

>>54830855
>Warmachine has a more mature fan base and is more tactically nuanced.
Tactical nuance, definitely.
I would not be so certain on more mature or not. in my group there are some people in there 20s or older who play warmachine and have acted VERY inappropriately and immaturely.
>>
>>54831465
>the game can't be fun unless I'm being a loud meme-spewing faggot
>>
>>54831188
This, a hobby game where you are forced to use canon characters is retarded
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>>54831309
>hellenic phalangites facing an anachronostic Spartan army

Reeeeeeeeeee!
>>
>>54831555
How about 100 years war English vs undead?
>>
>>54830855
>Warmachine has a more mature fan base

I think you mean a more MANURE fan base given how bad the warmachine tables smell at conventions (there's also noticeably fewer warmachine tables than warhammer tables)
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>>54831636
I see GW TERRAIN REEEEEEE YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN OUT OF GARBAGE FOR FREE REEEEEEE
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>>54830868
>literally quoting the other side
>LOL NICE SPERG KID

Guess warmafags are the real spergs, eh?
>>
>>54830803
They both suck.
>>
If there were a way to play warmachine without warcasters, I'd be interested. Steam punk armies with the occasional jack marshal would be nifty.

the spell slinging, caster kill style of gameplay that's permeated the game from the start ain't interesting to me
>>
>>54835204
This guy gets it.

Play historic war games. You'll never look back.
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>>54835277
Every time I play Flames of War there's always that one neo-Nazi player tho
>>
>>54831636

>people complain about wmh terrain
>see this in almost every other game
>what

Have to admit, for the big 'cons terrain was often more sparse. Had more to do with limited resources, local tournaments I find have lush terrain setups often in WMH

OT: had only 1 demo game. Think it's a bit stupid having played loads of 40k video games to have your genetically engineers space marines in fuckhuge armour to be oneshotted by afanatic with spikes coming out of his nipples

Model quality in WMH is inconsistent and it's consistenly good in Warhammer though.
>>
>>54835331
Play Napoleonic or WWI. That's the nice thing, you get to choose which period. And at least it's usually just one neo-Nazi
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>>54835259

>see Company of Iron, coming in autumn
>http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-6-9-2017
>>
>>54830980
That's why you position your caster outside of that range. You can check literally any measurement at any time during your turn.
>>
>>54835379
Yeah, I'd heard about that. Hopefully it turns out alright, I'd like a reason to dust off my WM/H figs.
>>
>>54830803
I prefer 40k because it's got much larger armies and more satisfying battles. It feels more like a war game. Plus, the player base is mostly adults.
WMH is basically MtG with models instead of cards, and the players are mostly little kids screeching at each other about the rules.
>>
>>54830868
They got rid of that quote, it was problematic.
>>
>>54831031
yup thats the problem - in warmachine you always try to win and fun comes from this not from playing itself. Also huge huge power level problems
>>
Whichever one has a better community for you locally. I prefer Warmahordes for this alone, but I also like the fact that there's much, much less "codex creep". I got into tabletops because Tyranids were awesome, and the local meta was Leafblower guard and Latest Space Marine Codex.
So yeah, being able to have multiple viable lists is nice, and the newer themes seem to be supporting playing weirder/jankier stuff. I'm still losing most games, but every once in a while pull off a solid win, and it's very satisfying to start getting positioning down and pulling off solid combos.
>>
Play both, opinion incoming:

>Rules
Warmachine easily has the win here. Not even a contest. HOWEVER!

>Players
Warmachine players will only ever play the latest steamroller rules. Want to play for fluff? FUCK YOU. The player base are over-competitive and only play in order to practice for tournaments. They are SUPER SERIAL and fuck you if you want to have fun with your toy soldiers. You will play Steamroller forever and the game will become a dull slog because people will only ever play one or two lists with occasional small differences in the same scenarios that slightly change every year.

Warhammer is half and half. If you can find a group that don't play netlists and don't sperg out over losing then you'll have great fun. Unfortunately 40k also has more shit-eating douchebags who'll play the latest netlist and grin at you through cheeto-stained teeth as your fluffy Inquisitorial Allience list gets smashed to bits on turn one by whatever the latest hot list on the forums is. Partly this is because WH4K is so popular. A wider fanbase brings in more asshats.

So it's a draw basically. I'd give 40k the edge if you can find people who are cool though.

>Models
40k, hands down. Warmachine models are ugly and expensive, at least GWs models actually look good for the price and you can do a bunch of kitbashing and customisation. Warmachine uses shitty models made of shitty materials so even if you wanted to customise stuff, its annoyingly difficult. Not that you would because

>fluff
40k again. The Warmachine fluff is boring as shit and scattered over so many books it's basically impossible to catch up on. If you want to find out about certain events you need to look in 7 year old rule books and 10 year old issues of No Quarter. While 40ks plot has basically remained static for 30 years the current plot developments aren't scattered through codexes and issues of White Dwarf. You just buy (pirate) a novel.

>Winner
40k
>>
I went down to my club's WarmaHordes night a few years ago, with the Cygnar starter and the mk2 quickstart rules. Met a guy doing likewise with Cryx so we thought we'd have an intro game.

About three turns in another guy comes over, who I'd never seen playing anything else at club before, says in the full rules one of the Cryx warjacks has a "Leap" rule or something, then starts sperging out until the guy uses it to give himself an advantage. Bizarre lot, thank fuck it's never taken off in the UK as much as the US.
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>>54835999
The fanbase thinks that if you aren't playing Warmachine with the aim of being TOP TIER WTC INTERNATIONALLY competitive you're playing it wrong.
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>>54830855
>40k rewards clumping up around your leader
>the main gimmik of Warmachine LITERALLY involves being in close proximity to your leader

WH40K HQs are basically the equivalent of a Focus 6 caster these days.
Did you think about what you wrote before posting it?
>>
I like skub lite.
Fight me.
>>
>>54830803
Warmachine was better for a while.
But between PP shitting the bed with mk3 and GWs improvement with 8e 40k has pulled ahead for better game.
>>
>>54831254

>says while being the jew-enforced grimderp dogshit that is 40k

your hypocrisy knows no bounds, retard
>>
>>54830803

I found in Warmachine games revolved around clumping all your units towards the middle and trying to pull off random combos to win. Was really boring, magic the gathering doesn't work as a miniature game.

Likewise the actual Warmachines were trash and you were better off taking infantry which was ironic considering the games about Warmachines...

40k has a far more interesting universe, a much larger scale in game, I hated the tiny ranges in Warmachines and lack of maneouverability, and is more fun, clean and fluid to play. Actually plays out like a wargame rather than a CCG.

As for the player bases there's sperges on all sides. I didn't find Warmachine players any better or worse really , beyond their shitty smug superiority over warhammer. They'll take every opportunity to tell you how much better their game is to warhammer which reeks of insecurity. Meanwhile warhammer players barely ever talk about Warmachine because they know they're already playing the superior better supported game.
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>>54831171
People who play Sigmar should be euthanized.
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>>54836888
I never mentioned 40k, stop projecting.
>>
How did they get away with this? Good lawyers?
How are the novels and video games?

Oh right.. it has no novels and video games. lel
>>
>>54830855

>Warmachine has a more mature fan base

Define what you mean by mature. Warmahordes is notorious for having the most elitist, douche filled community of all table top war games.

I will admit, I do like certain Warmahordes game mechanics. But everything else about the game is so bland.

Seriously, Warhmahorde models have hardly any detail.
>>
>>54837432
Got triggered faggot?
>>
>>54838468
>oh no, they insulted my universally strongly disliked game
>I must retaliate
>>
>>54831031
>Good baseline rules warmachine wins massively, however the degree of gameyness in warmachine is a bit much for my tastes in a lot of ways
I disagree. In terms of mk 3 vs 8th edition, I'd say that while warmahordes has the better ruleset, it's not that much better than 8th, and in some regards (such as playing a fluffy game) 8th wins out.

Bonus points to 8th for GW actually trying to balance the game and listening to the fans and the results of tournaments and making changes rather quickly, unlike mk. 3 where the fans are blamed for the games problems
>>
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I play WarmaHordes for the game and the okay -to- great models.

I just paint some 40k models and sometimes play the RPGs for fun, but haven't played the wargame since 5th edition.
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>>54830803
The one in which it's not the list that wins you the game, but your actual tactical prowess and ability, with a bit of luck.
So neither
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>>54839524
>The one in which it's not the list that wins you the game, but your actual tactical prowess and ability, with a bit of luck.
So, what wargame do you like to play?
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>>54839567
The one in which that requirement is met.
Infinity
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>>54830803
it depends what you mean better.

warhammer has better lore and models

warmachine has better table mechanics

both have shitty metas and fanbases

warmachine is infested by SJWs and nu-males if that matters to you.
>>
Uz gotz ta pla'z ta 40kz. Datz lots. 'Or 'en 30k.

Play 40k you god damn skubmachine
>>
>>54836014
Ive heard alot of bad stuff about wmh competetiveness and was really surprised when at my lgs ppl where chill as fuck and played for fun and with janky lists(ok there was a dedicated "tourny training" evening every 2 weeks, so maybe the system was just nice) and stil could play hardcore if they wanted. So like with everything you can really luck with the community
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>>54830803

both kinda look like shit. HURR PAULDRONS
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>>54836130
>I like shitty ass skub lite.
>not superior Skub Wild Cherry
I didn't know it was possible to have an opinion this fucking bad, but you sure proved me wrong there friendo.
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>>54838579
but its not universally disliked.
we may not like it but evidently a bunch of other people do given its popularity.
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>>54831482
Play a RPG then.
Don't shit up the rest of the gaming with that autism.
>>
>>54842016
>buying models for 40k conversions = people liking AoS
No anon.
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>>54842249
have you been in a FLGS lately? there's usually a tablenof AoS being played about as often as 40k or warmachine.
>>
>>54840592
In reality the WMH community is still a slice of the population and still has plenty of people that play for fun (every lgs I've gone too in the past ~4 years).
/tg/ just can't go a week without shitting on some non 40k game and if they don't have a good reason they say shit like that (ex: "Infinity is just for Weebs! Mordheim has such a shitty aethesic")
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>Actual game
Warmachine
>Models
40K

That's generally how it is. Also holy shit, I didn't realize that /tg/ had gotten as bad as /v/.
>>
>>54830980
Battle box games are broken as fuck if you know what you're doing, which is why the person running them needs to be super careful.

There are a lot of tools and abilities in actual armies to prevent that exact thing from happening, but in BB games it's just a crapshoot.

Anyways, OP, to be honest, the first step is figuring out what people around you play.

The second step is figuring out if you can enjoy hanging out with those people.

If those two don't have an obvious choice, then Warmachine has a better, but much stricter and complicated rulesset, while 40k is more casual and free form.
>>
>>54831321
Well, to be fair, Warcasters wear special armor that packs a forcefield they can personally enhance with their magic, so not wearing a helmet is something they can get away with.
>>
>>54839524
Lists are strategy, table time is tactics.

Good wargames make both important.
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>>54839887
>warmachine is infested by SJWs and nu-males if that matters to you.
In what way? Bearing in mind that I've literally never seen a Warmachine player -or- a nu-male at my LGS, what attracts them to a game that looks like a pretty generic Warhammer clone?
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>>54844000
He must have confused Warmahordes with Malifaux or something. The Warmahordes playerbase really isn't that different from your standard miniature wargame's.
>>
>>54830855
Thanks for the summary anon. I guess I will see which Warmachine starter looks the best to me then.
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>>54844014
DESU nobody at my LGS plays anything except GW games, Magic, and tabletop RPGs. Not that I mind since all of us seem to play all three and the owner opened mainly to cater to the games he loves.
>>
>>54844000
Considering they still release pinup versions of their models, and actually made it a continuous feature, I'm pretty sure they at least have some resilience somewhere.
At the moment, no lesbians, gays, or rainbow colored folk have appeared in the fluff. No Donald trump Expy, no refugee crisis.

Numales maybe, SJWs No. Way to problematic for SJWs.
>>
>>54839887
Dumb frogposter.
>>>/r9k/
>>>/pol/
>>
>>54844159
Do any wargames actually do that? It seems like they wouldn't even have an audience considering the main demographic for wargames is middle-aged white men and young boys.
>>
>>54831109
What exactly do you expect from the Mongolian Animu Waifu pillow forum? Well thought out, reasoned, arguments with citations in fucking Turbian?
Let me guess- you hate anime posters too right?
Get out your own ass, or get out of here
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>>54844185
They don't. I can only think of MTG and some RPGs which really pull that shit. Maybe Malifaux but that is more because most of Wyrd's staff are women.
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>>54830803
Both have pros and cons.

As previously mentioned, Warmachine runs off combos between units and warcasters (a'la how the cards work with eachother in MtG). This adds an extra level to the game, but also restricts armies to being built around the combos of each character.

I kinda like some of the older GW games editions... There's something quite satisfying about winning because of tactics rather than because your army is loaded with special rules, skills and weapons that your opponent has no counter to.
>>
>>54844231
Even that's pretty weird to be honest. MTG doesn't even sell well with blacks and women. The main market among black TCG players is Yu Gi Oh, which doesn't have to do any pandering to sell (well, anime titties is sort of pandering, but they're pandering to Japanese audiences so I don't count it).

And Wyrd being SJW-ey is ironic considering they were thrown under the bus by a woman who didn't get hired as a "diversity consultant" there. Seems like the best way to avoid trouble is to not include them at all, since they eat their own.
>>
>>54844000
The only Indy games store within a few hundred miles of me is an SJW haven... The weird thing is... it wasn't a decade ago. I just went away for a few years and when I returned most of the Neckbeards were gone, replaced by manlets and tumblrites. They also stopped getting new RPG/Tabletop games stock in... Think it's entirely TGC keeping them afloat now (well.. it always was, it's just a shame that they're not interested in anything else nowadays).
>>
>>54836888
> Jew enforced
Anon what the fuck is wrong with you? Where did the rabi touch you?
>>
>>54844322
What do they play? MTG? YGO? Pokemon?

My local LGS makes all its money on Warhams and Magic. Probably mostly the Warhams.
>>
>>54840890
> Skub Wild Cherry
> not Vanilla Skub
Does your father know you are a faggot?
>>
>>54843743
I go at least once I week.
I see three guys playing the game once a week, two of which have had square bases and unpainted armies for a month now. No stormshitters, it was empire, ogres, and lizardmen or whatever they're called now.
>>
>>54844159
Sloan and Constance are a thing, so that's not entirely true.

It's absolutely a fact that they keep making cheesecake models though, to the point that the community is tired of it just because of how boring it's gotten.
>>
>>54835259
Company of Iron exists to be a smaller scale version of the game. No Warcasters.
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>>54844627
>Sloan and Constance are a thing, so that's not entirely true.
Huh, didn't know. I thought she had some Trencher guy.

I'd rather the cheesecake remain as a barometer. Its like a bug lamp keeping the SJWs away.
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>>54844810
Not Sloan, bah. The new BB caster for Cygnar.

Sloan does have the Commando, yes.
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>>54844891
Huh. Well considering it's so obscure I don't know about it, its a good thing.

Anyway I do think Warmachine gets unfairly shit on in the fluff category. As a reader of both fictions both 40K and WM have awful writing. For different reasons but they both do.

But in terms of world building I think it's "Wide Vs Deep". 40K is a big universe with place for you to create your own stuff, but its pretty simple when you get down to it. Warmachine is more a D&D campaign setting where everything is deeply intertwined with lots of secrets and such.

Helps that the fluff for Warmachine is helmed by the same guy, so no retcons really happen, or "Lol Chaos/Propaganda/ the writer likes a new faction now"
>>
>>54843783
>I didn't realize that /tg/ had gotten as bad as /v/.
It really has.

There is literally nothing wrong with playing both games.
>>
>>54844966
Seacat and the other guys who did the history of Warmahodes are incredible at writing settings. The IK setting is extremely interesting, pretty damn well thought out, and has a ton of nice little bits of history to explain everything.

They're just such absolute shit at prose and characters. Even the really good character archtypes they've got going they ruin trying to write for them.

Stryker and Magnus are the best example of this.
>>
>>54844996
>Stryker and Magnus are the best example of this.
I just like reading the Synopsises of what happens instead of the books. Good stuff in my opinion.

Also yeah Big Boss split into two different characters. Pretty cool.
>>
>>54844159
>they still release pinup versions of their models

they've started catering to tumblr and made male pin up models for their limited edition loot crate thing they are doing.
>>
>>54845897
I would define that less as catering to tumblr as it is to finally just doing something different.

Honestly, most people are just asking them to stop making cheesecake in general and just do interesting models. Rolling Bone Goreshade and Thagrosh, Painter of Everblight are both super popular, while no one gives a shit about "It's a half naked girl with some random warmachine references."

I don't mind some random sexy models, but it's the one god damn thing they seem to be doing.

And you want to argue about tumblr, that minicrate preview had a ton of time devoted to each of the new female chessecake models coming out, and like a small bit at the end for the male models that just showed some random concept artwork rather than actual models like they did for the other stuff.
>>
>>54845897
Nah that's not tumblr. Everybody enjoys variety. Tumblr isn't about giving everybody sexy stuff to ogle at (Otherwise Anime or Manga is tumblr). It's about taking away options and making disease or flaws ""sexy"" (They started making Vitiligo the next "Sexy" thing in Tumblr).

Honestly, I would enjoy some variety. I would find something like "Orsus Zoktavir, The Bishonen of Khardov" really entertaining.
>>
>>54846366
Vitiligo is kind of interesting, but only on already-beautiful women. It has the benefit of being an entirely cosmetic illness with no actual negative effects (except for increased susceptibility to sunlight obviously).

The really bad ones are obesity, arm and leg scarring, genital mutilation, and the worship of schizophrenics (2-spirit, tulpa, otherkin, etc.).
>>
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>>54845990
>>54846366
> just doing something different.
> Everybody enjoys variety.

got some bad news for you anons.

you might have come down with a case of the gay
>>
>>54846486
Except that people aren't asking for male strippers instead. I mean, a few people are, but most people are just asking them to stop doing strippers of either gender and do interesting stuff instead.
>>
>>54836354
what the fuck happened there? I never played WM but the various FLGS in my area went from being infested with WM events to only having one location even regularly holding them
>>
>>54846699
Jason Soles acted like an asshole on the forums and mark 3 was really rushed out. The game is honestly in the best state that it has ever been right now, but on the PR side they acted like complete idiots.
>>
>>54846699
They released a new edition that was primo garbagio at the same time that Warhams came out with a new edition that's insanely good in comparison to 7th.
>>
>>54846699
In terms of the actual game, it's complicated. If you really sit down and weigh the options, then Mk3 is a better game than Mk2 was for a lot of reasons, even though some of their choices were kind of suspect and it took them past the release to really get there.

However, PP has some serious, serious public relations issues. They basically couldn't say anything without pissing off their community, and when they attempted to explain some of their choices(of which, though painful, were overall better for the game) they did it in the worst way possible. So they made quite a few people really damn angry right when they needed people to stick with them.

It was not a very good edition change for this reason. There were some pretty serious balance concerns as well, but to their credit those have been ironed out.
>>
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>>54837783
As in less annoying teenagers. I avoid GW stores for the simple fact that they are like daycares.
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>>54846729
>>54846737
>>54846769
ty all
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>>54846778
That kid's model is fucking good. I've seen people in the wip thread do way worse.
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>>54846668
>Except that people aren't asking for male strippers instead.

they were, before they nuked the old forums. It would come up every L&L. I legitimatly felt bad for women war gamers when these beta white knights would post constantly about wanting "beefcake" models to be "fair" to women war gamers.

Also the beefcake models totally ruined their monthly model service, since you were likely to get stuck with atleast 3 Himbo models if you got the vip service.
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>>54846854
It was the same couple of people that everyone ignored/hated. It was hardly a large chunk of the community.
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>>54846737
>They released a new edition that was primo garbagio
It isn't.

>a new edition that's insanely good in comparison to 7th.
It isn't.
>>
>>54846769
I have to agree with you about the PR issues. I personally don't have a problem with the game and models on their own merit, but the attitude they take when addressing some problems is phenomenally arrogant. When the desert hydra came out and it dawned on people that it had serious casting issues, they said that people who want their $100+ model to be made to a high standard should sculpt it themselves and that they wouldn't fix it. When other companies have issues they are much more gracious. When some of Wyrd's early plastics had scaling issues, they refunded everyone, completely redid the kits in question, and sent those they refunded replacements. GW provided replacements for Finecast miscasts as well. You could say the same for how dismissive they were towards Skhorne players until they finally relented and errata'd everything.
>>
>>54846899
It's a real problem. A lot of the devs, Soles being the biggest one, just don't know how to interact with the community in a real way.

I can kind of understand the Hydra situation(it was their second attempt at a sculpt, after all, since the first one was even more fucked up), but the way they talked about it was exactly as you described.
>>
>>54846899
40k feels like a shit game being made by good people (albeit ones part of a shit company), while Warmachine is a good game being made by shit people. Kind of sucks no matter which way you look at it.
>>
>>54846899
I think PP single-handedly taught me why PR departments exist.

Like so much of their stuff in the longrun thinking about it is actually really good, they just present everything in a really stupid and dickish way.

"Hey man Im gonna stab you with a syringe full of a fluid thats gonna make you itch like crazy for a day!"
"WHAT?"
"Because it's an inoculation for a disease in the area"

Like the reason why I would say Grymkin got such a bad reception is that they were the only thing really there all year.

If it was like

"Hey guys check out our ideas and stuff. BTW we wanna try out a new faction called Grymkin!"

Then I don't think anybody would mind because, in the long run, the Grymkin appear to be one of the most well balanced and good factions in the entire game. Where you could recommend a purchase of anything without any complaints.
>>
>>54830803
As of right now? 40k. Warmachine shit the bed.
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>>54844029
did you really just make your decision based on that one anon and ignore all the contradictory evidence from other posters
>>
>>54848694
The other replies were about the community rather than the actual gameplay, and as I mostly play with friends I didn't see the issue.
>>
>>54848306
What do you mean shit the bed? MK3 is currently a better game than MK2 was.
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>>54848774
Not that guy, but the MKIII release was a shit the bed moment in my opinion. Followed by a year of shit the bed moments.

When it's a shame that MKIII has the best foundation for the game yet. We are really beggining to see the intended design come together. It's points to condense.
>>
>>54848796
It was the best foundation, and is the best edition currently. The most egregious issues were erratad a while ago, and in its current state the game is no worse off than MKII. The game is hardly to the point where it is as bad as 40K.
>>
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Infinity has better rules and better models than both desu
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>>54848985
yeah but it doesn't let me drown my opponents line with 50 or so not-xenomorphs, while my big monsters get in gun duels with tanks. so its not worth playing.
>>
Whichever playerbase is the least bad in your area and complains less about people who play other games, so probably not Warmachine. For god's sake I just wanna punch shit with drudges, I don't need to hear about how bad you think every other tabletop game is compared to the one we're playing now.
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>>54849166
Your loss.
>>
>>54830803
40k
>>
>>54848764
But Warmachine isn't designed to be a fun game for friends. It's designed to be a highly competitive tournament game.
>>
>>54849166
>not playing preta-spam with Overdron against Haqqislam with Maghariba guard
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>>54852050
This. 40k is pretty comfy and has nicer minis, in terms of being a casual game it beats WMH hands down.
>>
>>54847597
Grymkin are a well balanced faction because the CID testing got them into that shape. The community literally did their work for them. At their initial CID release their internal balance was just as bad as every other faction.

PP are a terrible company. They spent a year tripping over their own feet and have ended up relying on their fans to fix their game for them.
>>
>>54852092
There's a legend WMH is a fun when played casually, but thus far I've never witnessed that first or second hand.
>>
>>54852129
To be fair I don't have any MkIII experience. I quit in MkII because I realized it wasn't what I was looking for.
>>
>>54848836
Once you shit the bed its hard to come back because you drive off a lot of people. It doesnt matter if they eventually fixed it, it still happened and still made a lot of people mad at PP.
>>
>>54830803
The one that you enjoy playing more is the better game.
>>
>>54848836
>>54848774

>can't admit MK3 was an absolute blunder

Take off the goggles mate, PP have done themselves massive damage really.

I wonder how the overall popularity of WMH was going, seemed to have stopped expanding about 2013
>>
>>54852831
I think it's dropping off. The /wmhg/ thread is slow as fuck and is basically just Skorne bitching and Lormahordes basically has nothing to talk about unless your faction has a CID going on. It also took them fucking 6 months to release Steamroller 2017 and shake up the game a bit.

The atmosphere of super seriousness that PP fostered over Mk2 and their blunders of their release styles is killing the game because there's nothing to talk about or get excited about and everyone has figured out the most competitive models already so there no point in experimenting and hamstringing yourself. PP should have stuck to their expansion book style of releases because at least then everyone got stuff at the same time so it kept the interest of the game going.

Especially when the internal balance of most factions is so fucked that half the options aren't worth taking. I get the feeling that Cygnar got the first Theme CID because people only ever took basically two units and they needed to shove some more out for them before the Cyganr players got bored and left the game.

They can't match 40k in terms of range which is why GW can get away with one codex every 5 year and it'll always be a majority of casual players who choose models based on fluff and rule-of-cool. Warmahordes is a game where people only buy and generally use competitive models. But that's the player base they fostered and now it's biting them in the ass.
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>>54831104
Doesn't get the joke behind 40k, misses point by miles
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>>54852831
The release and subsequent handling was a massive fuck-up, but the game itself is still very good.
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>>54853368
Ditto
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>>54848985
> Cyberpunk.
> Anime.
> """"""Better."""""""
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>>54852102
>The community literally did their work for them
I understand this sentiment, but community integrated input has made pretty much every game I can think of better, tabletop or otherwise, so I have a hard time disparaging it.
>>
>>54853694
Better than Dune knock off or gear clock fad for sure.
>>
>>54853813
Warmachine does a good job remaining gear fop free.
>>
>>54852912
I have to agree with this an an actual mod at Lormahordes, my job is so fucking easy these days that I literally moderate other forums as well, though I did fuck up in the beginning by being too strict.
>>
>>54853821
>What is Governance of Cyriss
Only think Warmachine lacks is tophats to complete the image.
>>
>>54846885
There's always the one retard who defends 7th. Always. Today, that retard is you.
>>
>>54844425
Well since we're all throwing anecdotal evidence around, in my store AoS is played more than 40k. It took some time for people to warm to it, but they love it now. Even the salty WHFB grognards are coming around to it and enjoying themselves and the Start Collecting boxes for AoS are practically falling off the shelves. 40k's new edition brought people to it again as well (and scared all the filthy Eldar WAACers away, yay!) but AoS is still hugely popular.
>>
Speaking of minis games, how's that Lord of the Rings tabletop minis thing?
>>
>>54854085
Stone old is what it is. The minis were nice when they first came out, but they haven't aged well and GW doesn't care enough to update the models. These days, practically nobody plays it anymore, but rules-wise it's supposed to be really good, so if you find a community for it, go for it.
>>
>>54854085
Non-existent, but if you're like me and have 5-6 dudes near you that play it, it's great fun, and really well written
>>
>>54853841
Thats not gear fop not even close. Its like saying 40k is a gundam series because giant robots.
>>
>have huge GB community where I'm from, alongside huge WMH community
>MK3 Drops
>Tfw all the competitive old bloods moved to my game and brought the WAAC attitude with them
I enjoy high level play as much as the next guy but it's time to stop
>>
>>54846778
Good. The one GW store I know of is like this too. Glad it's not just me.
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>>54852300
That doesn't mean that the game is actually bad though. If anything it is I'm a better place that 40K as every faction is viable.
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>>54854604
>implying current Tau isn't a Gundam ripoff
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>>54855471
Well the tau specifically take anime as an influence. Gundam is at least military inspired.

Cogfop is a specific aesthetic. The convergence don't emulate it at all.
>>
>>54852050
Can you elaborate on that? I have no issue with there being tournament style games. I play MTG standard all the time, both casually with friends and more competitively during FNMs. I also play more casually during weekly gamed of EDH, and it's all good fun. I could understand if I only played in tournaments, but I can't comprehend a huge problem if I played normal format games or even scenarios with friends, much like I do with MTG. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>>
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warmachine is a more competitively viable game but has an incredibly arrogant and pretentious fanbase

Warhammer 40k is a much better game for friendly casual play or narrative games and has a large enough player base that you would be able to pick and choose nice people to play with without issue
>>
>>54854016
>marinefag is happy the scary armies he couldn't steamroll went away
Really makes you think about whom is actually playing AoS.
>>
Warmachine has the look and feel of Warcraft so that's enough to make me uninterested.
>>
>>54830803

I tried to get into warmahordes when my 40k group started picking it up, but I didn't like the fact that every time I played against an army I had to read 12-16 stat cards just to know what my opponent's units did. It's like I had to study for a test before playing the game. 40k isn't perfect but at least there are fewer unique rules to keep track of.
>>
>>54835974

good breakdown right here, I think
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>>54830803
Warmachine is very bad at sculpting sometimes, but overal they are far better on the rules aspect than Games Workshop. Sure there are rules like a titan can't look over the forest units that are few inches away, but overal it has better rules. Also a lot of models have something special to do unlike 40K. Now 40K is more epic because you roll a shit ton of dice, but is much more easier to play because activating in Warmachine can ruin you the game if you make a mistake. Only thing I hate really about Warmachine is that terrain has to be simple and the fact I need to manage focus, I don't want to play a spellcaster in the first place, who needs spells when you can pounche to the face,
>>
>>54856079
They did a lot in Mk3 to tone that way down.

It is absolutely an issue with the system though. Warmahordes requires a lot of reading and knowledge to know what shit does.
>>
>>54846778
>Hating Children in this hobby.

Let me tell you. I'd rather play a 10 year old than an overly jaded 45 year old Grognard.

The 10 year old has less chance of having a tantrum if he loses.
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>>54856142
Well focus is just the mechanical system used for effects.

There are many casters with an immense focus on just smashing stuff alone.
>>
>>54856203
Better yet, stop playing GW and move on to a better game.
Like historicals. Worst that happens is you get shat on for not using the right shade of grey on your nazis.
>>
Im just trying to escape 40k before we get fully cucked. Im on the verge of building and collecting an army that isn't even related to any wargame. I just want to buy some skeletons with spears and some nazi zombies or something that cant be fucked with by a company WHOIS ACTUALLY TRYING TO GET ITS MOST COMMON FACTIONS PLAYERS TO BUY AN ENTIRE NEW ARMY TO REPLACE MODELS PRODUCED IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.
>>
>>54856272
>Historicals

So playing exclusively with the 45 year old Grognard, so now he's a /his/ autist who dislikes the colors I use for my armies.
>>
>>54855882
The rules are incredibly rigid, the play doesn't lend itself well to "fluffy" play and wins/losses come down to the millimeter.

If you don't always play competitively then there isn't a lot of fun to be had because the game is so clinical. Someone on the old PP forums had a quote that said something like the goal of the game is to minimize the impact that your dice have on the game and I feel like that exemplifies the feel of the game.

I've rarely felt like a fight between warjacks has been an epic clash between immense robots because the game is designed in such a way that you generally don't commit a heavy unless the odds are strongly in your favor of killing the enemy in one round. The maths and risk assessments take all the "visuals" out of the game. The rules are tight and read like a legal document which is good from a gameplay perspective but not great for a nights entertainment.

Whereas just last night I was playing 40k and had Saint Celestine and a Tau Commander jumping about the battlefield trying to kill each other. Thats cool. I can imagine the Tau Commander darting about above a battlefield firing off shots and Celestine closing the distance and them both glancing each other as they try to out-maneuver each other.

It depends what you want from the game, personally I've been playing WMH for the last 4 years or so and I'm kind of bored of the rigidity of it. When I have my friends over I want to have fun, not spend 10 minutes thinking about the order I move my models in, measuring everything twice and checking to see if a rule says "may" or "must".
>>
>>54856317
One thing that I always disliked about Warmahordes is I never want to buy a "Useless" unit.

At worse in 40k the Unit may be overcosted, but rarely have I ever shelved a unit totally or a unit TYPE totally based on my collection.

>*cough* Reeves for Circle * Cough*
>>
>>54856274
So you want Historicals, or Kings of war (for now, I don't know how long their "use any model even if we don't make it" mentality will last), or any of the myriad rules only games like open combat and SoBaH, or hordes of the things.
It's not hard.
>>
>>54856317
But isnt that just strategy and tactics?

Why the expensive models and thick rulebooks if you just wanna role some dice.

Arent RPGs better for that sorta thing?
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>>54856384
I actually rather like AoS because truth be told I prefer the Fantasy Skirmish idea to the Fantasy Block tactics.

It always felt weird when playing Orcs to have extremely rigid block formations.
>>
>>54856370
Unless GW just gets bored of your faction that is.
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>>54856370
Man Reeves are pretty good right now. Tanith and Una really turn them up to 11.
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>>54856420
Brets and Tomb kings are still getting rules still. So you're getting support.

Hell Tomb kings are getting a much Deserved NERF.
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>>54856410
Then why not play lord of the rings?
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>>54856434
It's just the inane issue of needing a specific "Build" to make even the most basic troops useful that puts me off.

I like forming an Army around my collection, not a collection around my army. Warmahordes has become too Specialised in rules for units.

Honestly, AoS and 40K 8E do the " X buffs and helps Y" that Warmahordes does a little better because they're generic buffs.

>>54856453
LoTR is alright, but not enough people to play it. One of these days, I honestly feel like creating a "Warhammer to LotR" unit conversion matrix.

I just play Hinterlands/AoS Skirmish now desu.
>>
>>54856492
That's the problem with wargaming, everyone plays gw so there's no real impetus to play anything else, and people play gw because there's nothing else to play. What a vicious cycle.
it should not be hard at all, for the units that had stats in Fantasy just copy those over as needed and add their armor to their toughness, then just follow the captain M/W/F distribution for hero level characters and the "king" for generic heroes
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>>54856405
>But isnt that just strategy and tactics?
I never said WMH wasn't strategic or better for that than 40k, it is. But the mechanics and atmosphere of the game is one which leaves very little character in the game. There's no charisma. Even worse, it has no charisma and it's ugly.

>Arent RPGs better for that sorta thing?
Unless the roleplaying system lets you use dozens of characters at once on a battlefield.
>>
>>54856317
>When I have my friends over I want to have fun, not spend 10 minutes thinking about the order I move my models in

Don't start this shit. It may not be fun for you, but that doesn't mean it's not fun in general.
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>>54856619
Well there are, they just aren't popular at all.
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>>54856405

Not that guy, but it's not just "Roll some dice". Maybe I liked the model appearance, or thought it would be fun to paint or convert, maybe it was hot last edition and while not so hot now, I enjoy still being able to field it?

A game that requires you to only put what's hot this season, on the tabletop, will be a very dull game quickly.
>>
>>54830803
Came here to say warmahorde models look like shit
They just look bad, its not about quality, it's just they look awful and stupid
>>
>>54856664
I used to find it fun when I first started but it gets boring a few years down the line.
>>
>>54856719
Sure a lot of factions look bad but everblight still looks fucking good.
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>>54856664
>It may not be fun for you, but that doesn't mean it's not fun in general

Well different people have different ideas of 'fun'.

Some people only have 'fun' when they're winning, which I'll never understand...
>>
>>54856720
>oh no, I have to think
>think bad, for nerds
At that point just line up your models and take turns shooting them with rubber band guns while drinking beer, the origin of wargaming as we know it.
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>>54856317
That sounds fine then. I can see the appeal for both games, but I want a game that has good balance between factions and an emphasis on meaningful tactics. If anything a focus on mitigating randomness is a good thing. No game of MTG I have played has been "Fluffy", and I can deal without everything lining up to the lore. I ultimately don't want to invest in a game that I will find uninteresting to play.
>>
>>54856713
If you're claiming you can only netlist, bullshit.

One of the most common pieces of advice given to new players going to a tourney is to play what you know rather than what everyone says is good.

So called "bad" lists and casters win events all the time.
>>
>>54844231
that picture is so cringe. Guarantee you he still babysitted his "wife" through the rules. I have yet to see a woman who could play through any system without being handheld through the rules
>>
>>54856619
Plenty of RPGs have mass combat rules. If anything games like ACKS have better wargaming rules than 40K. I do find saying that a game had "no charisma" kind of a wishy washy argument. If anything the unique rules that a lot of models have gives them more character.
>>
>>54843846
Umm, so do space marines...
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>>54856805
No they don't, Cygnar and Cryx Ghost Fleet do.

While you're right, experiene trumps netlist, the problem that arises is when an experienced player takes a netlist. Which many do.
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>>54835379
>http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-6-9-2017
>"Hey let's show off our new models!"
>"Okay, just pick the smallest picture possible!"

Really, why the fuck do companies do this? Like every non-GW mini company uses the smallest fucking pictures possible.
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>>54856761
>Warmahordes autist can't think of a counter-argument so resorts to insults

Every fucking time.
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>>54856783
> I want a game that has good balance between factions and an emphasis on meaningful tactics.

Warmahordes doesn't have a good faction balance.
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>>54856892
>he thinks I play warmahordes
>he thinks moving your pieces in a good way is too boring and autistic
>doesn't even get the little wars reference
Like clockwork.
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>>54856870
Sure, the highest level of competitive play is run by very specific lists.

But are you playing at that level?
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>>54856908
In general? Yes it does. The game's problem might be inter-faction balance, but the various factions are all plenty competitive against once another.
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>>54856843
I didn't debate that?
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>>54856884
I'm not sure on that one. Most times the pictures fit the width of their posts.
The most likely scenario is that model pictures are taken in group shots for sake of time and picture gets chopped up.
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>>54856492
You are acting as if there aren't optimal "builds" in 40K as well. If anything it is just that the Warmahordes community emphasizes them more, and privateer press actually cares about balancing them.
>>
>>54856945
If you play Hordes (nearly half the games factions) you might as well not bother turning up to tournaments.

Cygnar generally dominates the other Warmachine factions.
>>
>>54856945
I don't think you know what you're typing out
>>
>>54856986
>privateer press actually cares about balancing them.

Do they fuck. If that were true they wouldn't be launching straight into theme force CIDs and would be doing more like the Battle Engine CID where they choose a group of models that exist already and try to sort them out.
>>
>>54857007
Circle's in a good spot, Trolls just got some massive buffs, Fyanna does just fine into Cygnar and Skorne has Rasheth to fuck with most of what Cygnar wants to do.

Now, it is absolutely true that Wamahordes is full of people who just decide that "insert faction here" is bullshit and no one else should bother.

>>54857010
I think I know exactly what I'm typing out. The various factions are balanced against each other, it's the choices within those factions where the issues lie.
>>
>>54857037
You know, that point would hold more merit if they didn't use the theme force CIDs to touch on non-theme models.

Trollbloods got a lot of changes to stuff that had nothing to do with the new Northkin models.
>>
>>54856986
GW fixed flyer-spam within weeks of 8th being launched as well as several other issues.

PP has published an errata like 6 months after Mk3 was launched and it barely fixed anything. Now they've said they're not bothering with erratas anymore or something? I dunno, they change their plans like every 3 months.
>>
>>54857037
I find it highly amusing that they got rid of their volunteer program because of free labour reasons but now are actively using the entire player base to get free playtesting.
>>
>>54856986
8th doesn't really have any optimal builds to the extent that WMH does.
There are certainly units that are a noa-brainer to take, like Guillman for instance, but things like chapter tactics, stratagems and relics allow for greater list diversity rather than the spamhammer that defined pre-codex 8th, and even then competive 40k sees a lot more list diversity simply because of the fact that optimum combos don't exist.
It also helps that GW's been really on point with balancing, so that we don't see lists like stormraven spam come to dominate the meta until an FAQ gets released months down the line
>>
>>54855990
Yup. Warmachine is for competitive games.

40K is for pretty much everything else.
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>>54857091
So you are willfully ignorant. For some reason I am not surprised.
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>>54857128
>Warmachine is for competitive games
Eh, PP dealing with MK III throws even that into question. GW has been doing a really good job at balancing the game and doing it quickly, while PP takes 6 months to release an errata.
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>>54857165
I got sick of the shitfest Mk3 has become. It's obvious PP don't have a fucking clue what they're doing and their player base is diminishing as well. I just wish it was a public company so I could see they're stock prices plummeting as people go back to 40k.
>>
>>54857174
Objectively false. Una2 didn't have to wait that long to get nerfed.

Beyond that buffs and nerfs too often just destabilize the meta of a game. Players will bitch about anything being too good or too bad, unless they can show it for truth doesn't mean anything.

It's important that shit doesn't change too quickly.
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>>54857209
But then they launched the CID programme and people won't buy anything because they don't know if it'll still have the same rules now or it's going to change in three months.
>>
>>54830803
what count as could you go for with warmachine factions for having a universe mixing grudge match against 40k dudes?
>>
>>54857174
Warmachine is certainly in a far better place than 40K right now, and regardless of that MKIII is a better game than MKII currently. Every faction is competitive, which is more than I can say for 40K.
>>
>>54857209
Una2 got nerfed because she was so powerful that she warped the meta around her.

I don't know who designs the Circle warcasters but they need to get him to fucking stop.
>>
>>54857238
And that's the other reason they're slowing shit down.

Beyond that, CID hasn't fucked anything up, it's mostly made the models going through it either more interesting or generally better to put on the table, so why would it worry people?

It's not like CID has been used to massively nerf shit.

And on the reverse end, it lets players preview what certain things are going to be like on the table, so they can make more informed choices.
>>
>>54857209
Shit needs to change in a pace that needs to change. PP's erratas are not only slow, but nonsensical. I'm still amazed at the fucking night troll
>>
>>54857261
So, the rumor goes that their playtesters only tested one faction, and that the Circle player was super in love with it.

Pagani has been the best thing to happen to the company in a long while, for all sorts of reasons.
>>
>>54857248
>Every faction is competitive, which is more than I can say for 40K
How is that any different than 40k 8th? The only faction I can think of that isn't all that competive is 'crons, amd even they aren't that bad.
>>
>>54857262
Look at the state things are in BEFORE the CID though. Grymkin were a fucking state compared to how they ended up.

At this point PP is basically a company making models with a vague idea of what they want them to do and then asking the community to design the rules for them.
>>
>>54857354
Whats the problem with outsourcing to a massive playgroup?

Mkii used public playtesting for its design as well.

Mkiii released poorly because they didnt do what they did in mkii
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>>54857425
Mkiii released poorly because they fucked with things that were fine and got defensive when called out. I still don't understand how they managed to fuck up charging and throws.
>>
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>>54857174
>GW has been doing a really good job at balancing the game
Never has a statement been so wrong before holy shit
>>
>>54831031

This anon pretty much has it.

However...as someone that has played since Mk I, the rules are not that great anymore. They're dated and with their new releases, it truly is CCG the miniature game with broken combos.

Not to mention shit just changes constantly now with CID.

Warmachine is just not the game it used to be, not to mention it's core audience are autistic shitlords that only care about winning. Can't stand the type of gamer they attract.
>>
>>54857248
>Warmachine is certainly in a far better place than 40K right now

>Shitty IP
>Shitty video game port (failure)
>Shitty roster builder (failure)
>No room for intellectual growth (Muh pinz and lulz colossa wrestle!)
>Shitty kits, both in plastic and metal
>Can't mold worth a shit
>Literally has democracy rules making and design space right now

Yeah, PP is in a great place anon, you fucking fanboi :)
>>
>>54857537
Well you know you just dont care.

They didnt want extended tgreat ranges for certain things, and didnt want high defense casters to be too easily threatened.

>>54857598
How. People talk shit but rarely elaborate.
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>>54857598
>not to mention it's core audience are autistic shitlords that only care about winning. Can't stand the type of gamer they attract

That's one thing I found interesting about The Horus Heresy. That community will bitch those kinds of players out.
>>
>>54857670
>didnt want high defense casters to be too easily threatened.
Hold up there. You mean PP thought throws were too good so they made throws in to the most precisely accurate attack of all time?

Jason Soles, get the fuck out of tg
>>
>>54857672
>That's one thing I found interesting about The Horus Heresy. That community will bitch those kinds of players out.

Yeah, most of 40k is like that. It's mainly modelers that enjoy the fluff first, gamers second. Usually laid back older guys, like Infinity players for example.

Warmahordes players are usually fucking obnoxious, especially the ones that travel to every con. They usually kill a community eventually, it eats itself, which is why Wamahordes has waxed and waned over the years.

It doesn't have substance or depth like 40k, just had a great rules system for its time. It's not so special anymore though, especially with the fucking catastrophic Mk III launch. Once their rules go, they don't have much to fall back on.
>>
>>54857746
>40k
>substance and depth
>>
>>54857640
>Had to use a shitty Kickstarter to even make their awful vg.
>>
>>54857284
I actually was planning on getting into 8th until I found out that renegades suck. I will hope for an errata for now so my DV cultists don't just gather dust.
>>
>>54857670
>and didnt want high defense casters to be too easily threatened.

I talk shit and I'll elaborate.

Let's take your head in ass comment about throws. Throws were perfectly fine in Mk 2. Sure, sometimes it would give you a caster kill but it was pretty unreliable unless you had two open fists and was usually a hail mary. It was exciting and fun though if it ever happened but again, unreliable and most people wouldn't let their caster get in that situation.

Here comes Mk 3. They make throwing SUPER FUCKING ACCURATE despite everyone at launch laughing at how it can get abused. So, come WTC, here is everyone tossing the flying snake around and PP says "Oh shit, throws are too strong!". So instead of fixing the core issue (Throws are super fucking accurate now), they just take power attacks away from friendlies.

So you need to ask the question, does that negate high defense casters now? The answer is no, because I can still grab your guy and throw it directly away from me and hit your caster 100% of the time. What it did do, was introduce more rules to restrict players, in what was formerly an open rule system, for no real net gain. That's a perfect example of them shitting the bed after they shit the bed, then doubling down when people complain.
>>
>>54857640
I was referring to the actual rules and gameplay, but you can try to rationalize things however you want.
>>
>>54857800
You could run them as cultists for Chaos Space Marines.

Also Renegades aren't THAT bad if you just run them as an ally for another Chaos army.
>>
>>54857768
>>40k
>>substance and depth

As someone that is older anon and has seen fellow gamers be introduced to 40k, Infinity, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Fantasy, etc.....yes 40k has a ton of depth in its universe. The fact that you would even dispute that shows how slanted you are to your own view. You can say 40k has shitty rules, ok, sure that's an argument. But to say 40k doesn't have substance and depth behind its IP is idiotic.

>>54857788
Yep and still hasn't delivered half the shit they said they would. It's a perfect example of how shitty their business is ran. They don't vet anything or have any quality control.
>>
>>54857816
>but you can try to rationalize things however you want.

That isn't rationalizing, that's a misunderstanding via text over the internet between the two of us. Even with rules, I'm not sure you're even right on that front anymore.

Cygnar/Cryx were top...6 at LnL? Finals was Cygnar vs. Cryx?
>>
>>54857843
I was talking as a game numbnuts, even then the setting is just a bunch of oc donot steal Mary Sues faffing about with badly proportioned cartoony models.
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>>54857883
>I was talking as a game numbnuts, even then the setting is just a bunch of oc donot steal Mary Sues faffing about with badly proportioned cartoony models.

Autism, the post. You show you're a Warmahordes fanboi by your greasy fat fingers and type of posting anon, get outside or go read some Denny blowjob PP novels.
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>>54857556
>implying they haven't
What else do you call nerfing broken units quickly after they've been shown to be such, adjusting points costs to make units more viable and FAQing broken rules?
But please, continue on like it's still 7th
>>
>>54857728
It was only an issue when you coudl throw your own shit, which they got rid off.

Throws are sill pin point accurate, but they're hardly broken anymore.
>>
>>54857883
>faffing about with badly proportioned cartoony models.
Meanwhile...
>>
>>54857931
Your reactionary kneejerk only proves my point.
I play 40k
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>>54857809
Throws weren't fine in Mk2, because they were complicated enough that it was just better to call a judge to explain shit to my opponent than it was to just say "Ok, I'm throwing your dude."

And removing a lot of the ability to just do your shit without your opponents input was one of the bigger reasons power attacks and charges went away from friendlies.

Nothing like doing everything right to stop B3 from getting to your caster and then having him run one of his own dudes up and getting to you anyways. Or having a TK caster feat from down town because of how TK and charges interacted.
>>
>>54857871
You know, you'd have a lot more merit in that idea if Skorne wasn't in a position to start bending Cryx over soon as the new theme drops.

Honestly, they can do it without the theme too, but the theme just makes it easier.
>>
>>54830803
Game-wise?
Warmachine.
Model-wise/Hobbyist wise?
Warhammer.
>>
>>54830980

>friend pressures me into trying out Warmachine
>cmon dude it's really fun!
>okay fine
>play at the smallest points level so I can get a grasp of the game
>Play Khador, he plays the blue fags.
>He does some cheese strat in which his mech knocks mine down and then pokes it for a small amount of automatic damage
>cant get up and attack, have no other options
>spend 5 turns getting up, then getting knocked down and poked until my mech dies and the game ends
>never play again

Like most cheese strats I'm sure that if I put the time in to learn the game there's probably an easy counter, but wargames unlike say, video games, require way too much of an investment to bother dabbling in something that felt awful to play initially
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>>54858026
>Throws weren't fine in Mk2, because they were complicated enough that it was just better to call a judge to explain shit to my opponent than it was to just say "Ok, I'm throwing your dude."
so adding a resolution system that is completely different from every fucking rules interaction is how you are going to simplify it. Jesus Christ.

>And removing a lot of the ability to just do your shit without your opponents input was one of the bigger reasons power attacks and charges went away from friendlies
This isn't infinity. Outside of admonition, counter charge, reposte/retaliatory strike there's no reaction stuff. If your complaint is that mkiii is the same shit as mkii.

>Nothing like doing everything right to stop B3 from getting to your caster and then having him run one of his own dudes up and getting to you anyways.
If you did it right he wouldn't have got you.
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>>54857958
Compared to Warmahordes (Or a lot of other games really) they are still far behind. 8th edition and its support happen to be the tallest pygmy.
>>
>>54857958
I prefer when a bunch of people bitch that a faction or unit is overpowered so they make it stronger
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>>54858162
>This isn't infinity. Outside of admonition, counter charge, reposte/retaliatory strike there's no reaction stuff. If your complaint is that mkiii is the same shit as mkii.

Not what I'm complaining about.

>If you did it right he wouldn't have got you.

There's not a whole lot of ways to stop Butcher from charging his own dude, advancing 3" afterwards, and then Impending Doom outside of staying more than 16" away from him, and at that point he just use the turn to kill a bunch of shit anyways.

To be honest man, it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about if you've never seen shit like this in action.
>>
>>54830803
What game is better? Warmachine, no contest. 40K has been bad for a long-ass time and continues to be bad.

Setting is a matter of taste, as is aesthetic, etc. That said, 40K has the benefit of a billion easily accessible fluff wikis, making it extremely simple to delve deep into the background. Meanwhile, getting a good sense of what Warmachine's setting is like pretty much requires reading the RPG books.

I would say that the WHFB setting had more objective merit, in the way it's structured and thought-through, that the Warmachine one, but 40K and Warmachine are just different strokes for different folks.
>>
>>54858144
I mean, the counter to that is in the basic rules, so it sounds like your friend was just being a giant shithead.
>>
>>54858235
Again, you've obviously not done it right if your opponent did what you were preventing him to do. Yeah butcher kills stuff and goes fast. That's what he does.
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>>54858290
Yea, alright.

So, what do you do to stop that, if you don't mind explaining?
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>>54836948
>They'll take every opportunity to tell you how much better their game is to warhammer which reeks of insecurity. Meanwhile warhammer players barely ever talk about Warmachine because they know they're already playing the superior better supported game.

The irony of this post is palpable.
>>
>>54835277
>>54835351
No thanks, most historic players are either senile, overtly smug, or are non-existent.
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>>54858235
>There's not a whole lot of ways to stop Butcher from charging his own dude, advancing 3" afterwards, and then Impending Doom outside of staying more than 16" away from him, and at that point he just use the turn to kill a bunch of shit anyways.

Somebody got touched bad by Butcher 3 in Mk 2 and now uses it to justify any rules changes.


Protip anon, we were talking about throws and power attacks. Charges aren't power attacks.

The reason throws became broke in Mk 3 was because they didn't think it through when they made them super accurate. Which is the reasoning behind most of the Mk 3 cluster fucks, they didn't think things through.

>Flank doesn't work on knocked down models.

They did this shit constantly, to the point they shut down their fucking forums and nuked most of the forums because of how negative it got. They're just terribly ran now. And their conventions show it.
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>>54858438
Flames of War is more popular than 40K where I am at. The player base really isn't any different than it is for any other miniatures game.
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>>54858517
He's a /v/-tier shitposter. Don't give him (you)s
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>>54858510
The flank issues was entirely a PR issue, had nothing to do with the rules.

Infernals aren't allowed to change the rules, they can only rule on how the interaction works as written.

And as written, Flank and knockdown interacted the way they ruled, which was a major issue.

But instead of going "Look, we don't let Infernals change the rules, we know this is an issue, it's going to get errated soon." they said "Working as intended." the worst possible thing to say.

Which was a massive clusterfuck, yes, but no one actually believes the working as intended was serious. It was them not being able to talk yet again.

And the two things are the same issue, in regards to charges and power attacks. The change was made to prevent players being able to ignore enemy positioning and plans without any way to stop them.
>>
>>54858322
Obviously depends much on army comps and shit so I'll keep it vague. If it's really early game then kill two doggos in 1 turn if possible and circle around terrain. If the butcher was running infantry spam like black dragons, the best thing would be to cripple his 1 jack: Ruin/behemoth so every heavy armor work needs to be done by him. This usually gets him baited. Colossal lists tend to do ok as well since you can hide behind it and if your caster has any combat capacity, he should be able to put him down.
In general hitting his hardest hitter first is the best way to go. If he's going apeshit himself because he's run out of throwaway stuff, he's vulnerable.
Anti spellcasting is also a big fuck you to him. Any obstruction was Orrin's home.

You don't stop butcher, you slow him down and strike when he's got just too few focus low to be comfortable.
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>>54858605

They specifically stated the no charge was to tone down certain feats (Purify, Feat Knockdown)

So they didn't mean it when they said Flank was working as intended, they just kind of meant it. Got it.

Look anon, I could go through countless other shit Mk3 had on release that was broke. Madrak 2, etc. etc. It was a disaster of a launch and they even acknowledged that.

Outside of their clusterfuck there, the game has been reduced down to basically a small little chess match with the premeasure bullshit. This is part of the reason you see con attendance at the lowest in years.
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>>54858144
You can spend focus to stand your mechs up and give them their full activation.
Your friend is a shit head for not telling you that.
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>>54856019
Tyranids and AdMech actually, but you keep trying bucko.
>>
Infinity
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>>54860307
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, you are so funny! I like you.
>>
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>>54830803
The one that doesn't make me broke.
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>>54860901
I think that logistics are part of it as well honestly. It is so much easier to transport a Warmachine army than a 40K one.
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>>54860506

Yeah, I like tight and focused gameplay too.

Gameplay that revolves around Order of Activation is really lame and doesn't really capture the feel of a fight.
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>>54830803

For me personally, And I have played both for years now (Warhammer since 20+ and Warmahordes a good 8+), It goes to Warhammer 40k.

The reason is the overall judgment when looking at all aspect of the hobby.

First of, it has better models, and "better" in terms of both quality and quantity and also in the pure volume that GW pumps out.

It has cheaper models on a model by model basis (and I know most Warmahorde players will deal the "Buh its a skirmish game!" card). And combining this with the above, I am not pleased to pay even the same amount of money I give GW, for a model thats 15 years behind.

The game mechanics, while this is the area where Warmahordes shine, it only has one game mode that´s truly good and thats steamroller. Any other mode and youre trying to make the game in to something it is not a beer and pretzel game. And to be frank, GW does those types of games far better. So combining the new 8th edition and all the alternative gaming modes, be it competitive, open play or narrative play, you just have so much to pick and chose from it takes down warmahordes by sheer volume. There's something for everyone, and while Warmahordes competitive level of games are better than 40k competitive level of games, 40k simply offer so much more.

The fanbase. Personal experience so take this in to account. I feel that most Warmahorde players, while not evil power gaming bastards, do tend to favor the competitive gameplay. Many even view this game as the "sport" of miniature wargames, and who´s to blame them. Don't get me wrong, 40k has its fair share of powermonger´s, but these can be reasonably easy to both spot and avoid if you want to. And on a larger scale, the community as a whole is just so much bigger for the 40k game. To put it simple, you cannot go in to a miniature wargame shop, and not find a game of 40k.

I would personally pick 40k on all accounts if I had to chose.
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>>54860307
This.
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>>54861034
>game
>caring about feelings
>>
>>54861550
>he doesn't forge narrative with every action, because the system he uses is a clunky mess
>he thinks it makes the game more "gamist"
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>>54861151
This is my experience, as well, especially after mk III dropped for WM/H.

You can't just drop a casual list that you come up with on the spot; I've been called out for not taking the game seriously because I don't want to spend 100 dollars on shitty models that are suddenly in the meta, and when asked to just play for fun I get people who'd rather do something else.

While there's WAAC assholes in 40k and I'd argue those people are worse than the casual competitors that seem to come in for warmahordes, the difference is that WAAC asshole is the exception most of the time and they also can be outed as being an asshole. WM/H is 'supposed' to be played as a competitive game using 1/8 of the model range that happens to be competitively viable at a time, and it does so with a rules set that's good but not great at it. Having to disable entire chunks out of relatively recent rules sets (Banning power attacks on friendly models, removing arm/headlocks and other power attacks).

Their willingness to errata cards frequently to try and come up against unexpected power creep is a good sign, but dropping their printed cards after charging 20 bucks for decks that are still on the market and not having an alternative up after 6 months of waiting, not to mention the fact that their War Room app is basically mandatory at this point, are not good points in their favor. When free GW apps are beating out your apps in terms of accessibility, you've got a problem.
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>>54861575
Play rpgs if you want to emote you colossal faggot. Play the fucking game.
>>
>>54861638
>he has to choose because he can't do both
I bet you can't walk and have a conversation at the same time.
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>>54862086
How much do you want to lose?
>>
>>54861633
You can just print out the cards yourself for free from the card database. I personally don't see how some models not being taken is a huge issue when every other game had the same problem. The important thing is that you aren't gimped for playing the wrong faction, as each faction is competitive.
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>>54862190
How much do you want to not have fun?
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>>54861550

Why would I spend hundreds of dollars on tiny metal spacemen if I don't get to feel like they are actually little people doing battle?
>>
>>54862310
>>54862337
Fun is irrelevant. Fun is a byproduct of activity in controlled environment that engaged a person in non-threatening way.
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>>54862337
You can probably buy some Somalian children and pit them against each other for cheaper.
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>>54830803
I can't really answer because PP kept unrepentantly fucking up over the course of MK III, it really drove me off.

>Look, new cards!
>Nvm, digital only.
>Drop my gators by three boxes
>Give them back in a theme a year later
>A Meta of Stormlances, Rockets, and Pig Lasers
>Drop Press Gang program
>Drop faction forums. Cancer that they were, GW made the same move right before the unpopular decisions were made.
>Force feed Sole's pet project though development
>MK III allegedly playtested for three years
>Fuck Skorne all the way up because somebody lost to Fist one too many times
>Circle Christmas never ends and has lasted for years
>Whoopsie 2Una turned out to be stronger than anticipated!
>Instead of playtesting that I made home movies to promote our new Malifaux faction.

The last time I browsed /wmg/ everybody was bitching about some Cryx theme and I thought to myself "this will never end, will it?". It sucks because I was brought in by the Witchfire Trilogy and the setting is really neat, but I just can't bring myself to play anymore. I know we're going to set up our plastic mans, do our first turn runs, and bump and grind in the middle until the counters go to five or a caster bites it. My opponent will be a statue, we'll take turns rolling dice and punching a time clock. It's like a job.

40k by default, but it's like dumping a neurotic for your dope fiend ex. She better not be lying about getting clean.
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Played, warhammer fantasy (switched to Kings of War), Warmachine, Infinity. All 3 (4) have distinct and unique settings and playstyles, for my current mood of a battle : big army with tons of dicerolling, smaller army with 3-4 dice max., skirmish with ~10 miniatures. and face to face dice rolls.
Also since getting older leaves you with less free time for painting an playing, if you've got a job and a family to feed, games with less miniatures are better for me now. No ambition to spend months of painting space marines if I can paint up 10 infinity soldiers or a Warcaster, 5 jacks and ~15Infantrymen, in 2-3 weeks.

Never touched 40k and very happy about it since I already gave GW enough money and have no need for another large army.
But most important: I don't like the 40k setting.
Also the 40k playerbase is cancer. Although every game has it's asshole players there are more of them in the 40k fanbase compared to other games. Just look aorund /tg/.

>Which one is better?
Every other game than 40k.
>>
>>54862370
Literal textbook autism
>>
Is it just me or are 40K players only "Really nice dudes" as long as you join in on the circlejerk?

At least on this site, It seems that 40K players are only "Nice" to you unless you submit. No mention of how people who think things are overpriced are just called poorfags?

In real life, I have only really experienced good and nice players for all games.
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>>54864411
>In real life, I have only really experienced good and nice players for all games.
This 100%.

People like to bitch and moan online, but in real life, when you actually interact with people face to face, every game's playerbase is at least passable.

Threads like these are pure click-bait.
>>
>>54864411
>At least on this site

key point there

/tg/ is cunts no matter what they play
>>
>>54835999
Our game club of years back had a kibitzing fee that stepped up just to stop this kind of nonsense. New players would get all manner of advice and corrections mid game and not enjoy themselves. A real a**hole got elected 'president', rewrote the rules and instituted a higher 'cover fee' with benefits for those paying ahead. One rule was to keep any of our 'mentors' from pestering new players, $5, $10, $20, $50, etc fines. He retired to Florida a decade ago, but of the 8 'Laws' he forced on us, 2 have been modified, 1 repealed and another 'tweaked' due to inflation. The other four are dang near sacred. The group then was 25/week of about 50-60 people, but last time I was there, over 50 people were present and their fb group was nearly 250! And everybody b*tches about Tom's Commandments, but nobody is dumb enough to call for a change.If it ain't broke, don't let anyone under the hood (bonnet for the Island folk).
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>>54844346
Foreskin.
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>>54848985
Infinity models are pretty detailed but they all look so boring, generic, and uninspired to me.
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>>54844185
Wargaming started with middle-aged white men and young white boys, so that is the baseline. The thing I like most about wargamers is their near obliviousness to pesky details like race and sex. Last night after our game, we hit Steak 'n' Shake and some of the kids' friends were there. One whispered about how odd the group was (from a teenage perspective). Black guy and gal, but not together; seven white folks (5 guys/2 'girls' in their 50s) ranging from 16 to 62 in age. We had been playing hard for almost 8 hours and neither race nor sex of players was relevant.

And tomorrow I return to the depressing real world. Sigh.
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>>54866102
So, just like 80% of 40k?
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>>54868362
More like 100%
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>>54863319

>I have never played this game
>Its the worst game ever

Point noted, you my friend might be the most autistic poster on /tg/, congrats.




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