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WHEN EVERYONE'S A NAMEFAG, NO ONE IS SPECIAL EDITION

fuck the cancerous op. Let's talk about Iconic Masters. what reprints are dope as shit?
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was thinking of buying into UR Delver
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>>55296977
woah pal you're not a namefag
i'm very pleased about the Flusterstorm reprint
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>>55296977
I hope that Flusterstorm comes down to a reasonable price.
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Possible Sulfuric Vortex substitute? Discuss.
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>>55298764
Hey I do too, even though I don't play it
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>>55296823
>Cancer
>Complains about good/useful namefags
>OP pic is a card banned in Legacy
You are the cancer, not the namefags.
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>>55298798
That dies to Bolt?
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>>55298798
No, it's not that good. Maybe a SB option

>>55296977
I never understood why they put Storm on a Commander card, especially like 5 years after its last printing
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Could see play in some delver lists.
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>>55296823
>WHEN EVERYONE'S A NAMEFAG, NO ONE IS SPECIAL
Do you want nothing but namefagging? because this is how you get nothing but namefagging.

>what reprints are dope as shit?
I'm looking forward to the Flusterstorm reprint, I'll finally be able to play more that 2 without taking out a second mortgage.

>>55298806
looks like I've got an imposter! Joking aside, what varient are you on? Godo+skulls, Chandra's + Combustables, or something else?
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>>55298906
>>55298906
Chandra-Combustible my nigga

I haven't had this much fun in Magic in a long while. I'm borrowing a friend's deck, he runs Esper Stoneblade as a main but rocks Big Red as a fun side deck/a loaner and it's turbo-rad.

I want to build one myself, is Godo/Skulls just Godo's ETB for Batterskull? Does the Bandit King get any combat in?
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Iconic didnt mean shit here. No dt bolt counterspell port dark ritual. Im more exited about unstable full art lands than this set.
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>>55299227
no Port was bullshit but Ritual, Bolt and Counterspell have all been commons before, we don't know if they have been spotted yet
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>>55298961
Does the Bandit King get any combat in?
He can and it's awesome when it happens. If he's hardcast swinging with Godo will allow Skull to swing twice too because it has vigilance.
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>>55299398
How does this happen and what do I need to make it occur? Skulls don't have haste when you Sneak Attack a Godo... I need this in my life, Godo is my most favorite Magic card ever printed and I want to go maximum Heavy Metal Raider with him
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>>55299418
Glad your enjoying the deck! it's pretty well positioned right now with all the greedy manabases running around.

You would hardcast Godo to make it work. You could also Sneak/Breach Godo and Equip the Skull and get the same effect
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>>55299455
Do you have a Godo-based list, by chance?
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>>55299497
Sure thing. The SB for this list is a little dated (4x Leyline for BR Reanimator); I haven't run the Godo list in a while, been trying out Chandras and Hulks for the couple months. I do miss Godo in the grindy matchups, he is just a trip to value town.

Main:
4x Lotus Petal
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Seething Song
4x Through the Breach
4x Sneak Attack
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Griselbrand
2x Inferno Titan
2x Emrakul
2x Worldspine
2x Godo
2x Batterskull
10x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
1x Crystal Vein

SB
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Shattering Spree
2x Fiery Confluence
2x Kozilek's Return
2x Sudden Shock
3x 3ball
4x Leyline of the Void
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>>55299623
Forgot to add, If your running Godo you could also swap 1x Batterskull for 1x Elburus, the Binding Blade if your feeling spicy.
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When will they save the format by banning True-Name "connect with Jitte, g2?" Nemesis and Deathrite "This 4c manabase has no right to work ever but it does because of DRS haha wasteland me go right ahead it just makes my mana better in the long run here's a Leovold backed up by the stupidest pile of BUGR goodstuff you can imagine" Shaman? I miss playing against RUG Delver.
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>>55300489
>WAAAAHHHH BAN TOOOPPP
>WAAAAHHHH BAN TRUE NAAAAMEE
>WAAAAHHHH BAN DEE ARR ESSSSS
>>
Can Mighty Quinn be updated to 2017 standards or is it just Parfait right now?
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>>55298798
It's cool, but it's a Harsh-Mentor-tier card. Like "maybe in SB but never makes the cut"...
It's the clock set by Sulfuric vortex and the (relative) difficulty of getting rid of it that makes it amazing.
This dino looks cool but dies to bolt, swords, decay, jitte...
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>>55298798
I can see it being a sideboard card in UR delver or burn. Not sure how many matchups you'd want a threat that stops lifegain
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>>55301546
Lands? Doesn't die to one Punishing Fire and prevents Swords on Marit Lage from making the game unwinnable.
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>>55301573
Yeah but most decks that would play swords wouldn't play red for the Dino.
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Grixis Delver reporting in. I just top8'ed the German Legacy Championship, pretty happy about that considering I only played some games yesterday and the week before after quite some time. To be fair, there were only like 40 players.

The rest of the Top 8 includes (still playing) another Grixis Delver (with Stifle, I play Therapy), Esper Delver, Grixis Death's Shadow (lost to that in the quarters, it's pretty good), BR Reanimator, Infect, Sneak'n'Show and something else. Prizes were laughable, 20 Tix for 4-2 finish (50 for 5-1, 150 for 6-0) and 50 tix per top 8 win. Nevertheless, I'm quite happy.
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>>55303069
list senpai plox
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>>55303069
Congrats.I think the death shadow deck is underplayed. It seems powerful and can be made relatively cheap.
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>>55303219
Cheers. Indeed, although I guess it's a lot weaker versus several Combo decks and maybe also stuff like Maverick (actually played against that as well and saw another). StP is bad news as well.

>>55303149
It's a rather normal list. I will post it later when I get back home and don't have to type it out on my phone. The flex slots are Kola-Chan's Command, Fire // Ice and Spell Pierce. 18 Lands, 3 YP, 2 Angler, 1 TNN. 3 Probes, 2 Therapies.
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>>55303424
Yeah only needing like 5 drills woud make it worse vs combo. Still it seems like a great cheap entry to the format for people who want a delver style deck and really can't afford duals.
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>>55303620
Definitely. The guy basically played Grixis Delver with Shadows instead of Angler/TNN and of course shocks instead of duals. With even one dual of each kind, you can play the other deck easily.

Anyway, this is my deck:

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

// 19 Instant
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fire // Ice
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 18 Land
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest

// 9 Sorcery
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Electrickery
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

I didn't want to buy Flusterstorm so I only have another Spell Pierce in the board. As I've played a lot against Trinisphere and Vial decks, it definitely comes in handy. I will however get one with the reprint happening as it is definitely better in most cases. Aside from that, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I did not regret the Kolaghan's Command in the main as there are several equipment decks running around at the moment. Fire // Ice is just a personal favourite, though it definitely has it's moments generating value or basically timewalking.
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You're in the club and this guy slaps your Gf's ass. How do you respond?
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>>55305678
>concede
>get cucked
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>>55305678
heh... nothing personnel.... kid...
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>>55306162
>implying I didn't draw into Sire t1 and reanimate him too
>implying you topdecked it
:^)
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>>55306162
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>>55305678
>slaps your gf's ass turn 1
Fixed.
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>>55298849
The idea was that, since storm scales with the number of spells, you could use it to destroy huge stacks of spells during the longer turns. It's not how it actually works of course.
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>>55298895
>sorcery speed
It sucks
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when do I pop wasteland vs Lands when they're activating thespian stage with depths out
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>>55307165
When the Thespian Stage trying to copy Depths is on the stack, kill the target, ability fizzles.
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>>55307236
nope, let the stage copy and have him sac the original depths, then with the lage trigger on the stack wasteland the new depths. He can't sac it so he doesn't get the marit lage and he loses both lands
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>>55296823

The fact that they're finally using the good art for Evolving Wilds is the big one.

Also Future Sight lands I guess.
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wizards, what the FUCK?!

why did they print this shit? why???! i hate to be that guy who thinks anything that's new is too strong, but this card is seriously fucking bullshit.
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>>55309208
He should have been Abzan desu.
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>>55309359
This. Would have loved the shit out of junk hate bears with Leovold being the top end if wizards had only made him GBW.
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>>55309208
>>55309359
>a white effect
>and a white or white/blue effect
>on BUG because fuck you
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>>55310216

How the fuck is stealing your opponent's draw supposed to be white instead of UB (notion thief)
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>>55309208
I think Leovold being the best hatebear after Sanctum Prelate/playable creature in general after 1-mana walker despite not even being fucking white along with DRS making retarded manabases like Czech's possible is the worst thing about Legacy. Even TNN wouldn't be as retarded without the latter.
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Where should i buy cards from? there are so many sites out there
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>>55296823
This card wouldn't even be legacy playable, if it got unbanned, with the way the current meta is.
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>>55311682
It's a strictly better counterspell. Counterspell sees a bit of play. I'm sure mana drain would see play.
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>>55311907
What deck is counterspell still being played in? There's no deck leaving UU open on turn 2, 3 or 4 and surviving very long. The only time I've seen counterspell, in the past year, was in Merfolk because of Aether Vial, and even then it's still usually Spell Pierce, Force or Daze. Even if it were in Merfolk, the extra one or two mana it would give you (because that's all you're going to get in legacy) isn't going to change anything, that deck can usually dump all its creatures by turn 2 or 3.

The only deck I could have seen it being a nice addition to would have been the non miracle countertop decks that were running Tarmogoyf, Jace, thoughtseize, etc. Those decks were much slower and often had mana open early while building up to the jace or waiting to draw a tarmogoyf, they were also very prone to getting wastelanded, but now with top gone those decks don't exist.
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>>55312116
Well you could do a bit of research before you spew nonsense. 56 legacy decks containing counterspell in the main since August 1st of this year. Archetypes include nu-miracles, stoneblade, a couple Czech piles, a grixis delver list or 2. A standstill list and a bug list.
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>>55312210
>>55312116
Mtgtop8 is my research tool, in case you were wondering.
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>>55312116
are you dumb dude? The meta has shifted towards these 3/4 color control decks that all run 2-3 counterspell, like czech pile, grixis pyro, twinblade (or other stonblade variants), miracles, etc.
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>>55307490
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>>55307490
wait why does he sac the original depths
I thought you sac the new depths (the thespian stage)

what are you saccing the original depths to, crop rotation?
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>>55314555
The legend rule
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>>55314584
oh duh
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Is Death and Taxes still okay? I want to play something without RL cards.
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I was slowly collecting Cards for my Doomsday deck, now that top is banned, what do I do?
I just opened an Invocation Doomsday too, Play vintage or is there any way to make it somehow viable in Legacy?
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>>55316452
I just talked to a Doomsday player at the tournament yesterday who decided to stop playing it. It's just not viable like that. Maybe another card will come, but until then, I'd try ANT or TES.
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Got a casual deck I'd like some thoughts on, please. Some of the cards are legacy, but this is a casual deck. It is a "black dog" creature theme deck I call Churchill. The idea is to trigger the hounds' abilities to cause direct damage or trigger Delirium. My main concern is the curve.

1: 4x Sinister Concoction
2: 4x Hymn to Tourach, 4x Grave Strength
3: 4x Thraben Fouldbloods, 4x Victimize
4: 4x Mortis Dogs, 4x Flesh Allergy
5: 4x Hound of the Farbogs
6+: 4x Hollowborn Barghest
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>>55316452
I recently top8d a 60 person 1k with doomsday. The deck is inferior to other storm variants right now but it's not unplayable. Do what you dream my man.>>55317152
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>>55317743
Was supposed to respond to >>55316452
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>>55317743
props for not giving up on Doomsday after the ban
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What to force vs delver? When is a good moment to wrath? What to sideboard in vs delver?
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>>55319265
I have no clue what deck you're playing so I really can't help you
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>>55319123
I nearly did. Went off the deep end with some bizarro Doomsday lists with Veteran Explorer. Did real bad at a GPT with that one. 4-1'd a couple leagues with TES but it wasn't as much fun. Ended up just going back to the old Doomsday list, straight swapping the Tops for Preordain, and cutting all the grindy shit like Decay and the 17th land for more lotus petals. It was good enough I guess.
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>>55301159

Unfortunately Mighty Quinn needs something that will manipulate the top of their library for cheap so they can continue to grind advantage using Scrying Sheets and Eternal Dragon. It was interesting because it was a "Big Mana" deck while Parfait tries to run as low to the ground as possible (to keep Land Tax online), so they play very differently. However I don't think it can survive the Top ban as a mono-white deck. Maybe there is design space to brew a Blue/White Scrying Sheets deck, though.
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>>55305678

Watch as she rips off his arm.
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>>55319839
I didn't know Ixidor posted on /tg/.
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>>55319265
Just force the delver senpai
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>>55319265

Don't force anything unless you can't deal with it when it resolves. Game 2 you should sideboard them out for pyroblasts and other cheap counters.
>>
It's still a long way off but anyone here going to Eternal Weekend North America in october?
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>>55320464
I like you anon.
>>
>>55305678
I pay 7 life and get 7 gfs.
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>>55300489
I dont mind DRS that much on principle its just boring seeing him constantly
True Name Nemesis im actually mad about. Commander cards are not balanced for Legacy and should have never been legal in this format, True Names the biggest mistake out of them but theres some like Flusterstorm making other colors even more irrelevant because Blue traditionally had a hard time dealing with Storm so White and Red hate effects were actually relevant and I have a feeling Teferis Protection might do something obnoxious in the format.
Overall I like Legacy but making Commander cards legal was one of the biggest mistakes ever and ruins some of my enjoyment.
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>>55296823

Pic and Flusterstorm pretty much cover it. I'm hoping some of the Praetors drop a bit; been eyeing Vorinclex for Commander.

Also, re: names, I know at least one person in the thread IRL, so names are fine.

>>55309208

Yep, this is one of those cards that probably shouldn't have made it to print. I like it, and I'm brewing with one (Nic Fit), but I don't think it was good for the game. I can see how they missed it, though, if they're letting stuff like Deathrite through. I think I'm becoming that guy who hates certain cards but hates bans even more.

>>55319501

I'm so glad you're still keeping the faith. Again, I'm really happy Miracles took a hit, but the collateral damage from their choice of ban was pretty catastrophic for a number of decks.

>>55319265

As a rule, Force isn't great in the matchup if you can use other countermagic or comparable threats instead; pitching cards isn't good when your opponent wants to limit your options anyway, and the strength of Delvers is that they edge out other decks by deploying too much stuff to deal with that isn't usually worth Forcing on its own. Also, if you're playing combo, targeted discard is usually better than getting into a counter-battle.

>>55320464

Underrated post.

Hoping Team Florida weathers the hurricane ok.
>>
If you have isochron + orim's chant do you just use it opponents every upkeep?
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>>55332389
Yes

And hope they don't have instant speed removal for it
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>tfw people pronounce jitte "jitt"
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>>55332639
>tfw people are autistic enough to care
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>>55332639
>not pronouncing it "shittay"
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>>55309208
It should have been UB or esper.

The first ability is Notion Thieve (UB) or maybe even white like a sort of Alms Collector effect (C17, if an opp would draw more than one, both players draw one instead).

The second ability is pic related.

I still dont see how it is green other than being obnoxious as an elf, but it is deffinitely OK in the blue color pie.
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>>55334012
Additionally this and Spirit of the Labyrinth
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>>55310411
You're not stealing their draw, you're preventing them from drawing. That's pretty white.
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>>55336497
Yeah, but white anti-draw effects (like spirit of the labyrinth that everyone uses as an example) are almost always symmetrical. One-sided anti-draw is definitely blue/black.
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>>55336812
I think the real issue with the card is that it is green. There's nothing green about this guy except he's an elf. If it was esper it wouldn't be so widely played.
>>
>Aggro getting up to dangerous amounts of aggro and low combo
IT IS TIME.

FREE MY NIGGAS BAGHDAD & MYSTICAL TUTOR
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>>55336989
where are you getting huge amounts of aggro? All I ever play against is deathrite shaman based control decks
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>>55336922
I completely agree. Then if the bug decks want to splash for him they would have to go white for leo/stp instead of getting a free red splash for bolt/kcommand/pyroblast, which is a much tougher choice imo. Then again they could just go full esper (splashing green for drs and maybe decay) and run sfm which is another great card with leovold
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>>55336989
Shit senpai if Mystical were unbanned I would bust out of my goddamned jeans.
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>>55337328
So would I murrr~~
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>>55332639
I just call it bangarang.
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>>55337453
Mystical was banned about a month before I got back into Magic (and into legacy in particular) after a hiatus of a few years, so I never got to play legacy with it. I can't imagine how the format would change if it came back. It was so different when it went away.
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>>55337565
Mostly combo gets un-shittified and a huge power and cnsistency bump, high tide gets much, much better.
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>>55337605
Reanimator probably starts playing blue again too. I'm mostly thinking that with DRS and all the hatebears, that it would bump combo back into being top tier but maybe not overpowered? probably overpowered Although SnT could get broken.
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Rules question. Can I respond to the ETB trigger that makes me Sacrifice it or two untapped lands by just tapping it for 3 mana and then saccing it?
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>>55338116
1. Use google
2. this isn't ask a judge general
2. Use fucking google you retarded apes.
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>>55338166
get grip my dude. This card is confusing because it is worded like a triggered ability but oracle'd to a replacement effect. So to answer >>55338116: No. It is not an ETB trigger. If it were, you would be able to. And everyone would be playing 4 Lotus Vale.
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>>55338782
he can literally go to the gatherer page for the card and the answer is right there

Rulings
4/1/2008 If you don’t sacrifice the lands, Lotus Vale never enters the battlefield — it goes directly to your graveyard.

Don't spoonfeed retards
>>
>>55338782
People don't play 4 lotus petal on every deck.

Every deck that wants to play lotus won't want to play badlotus of no storm.
Other decks would rather have the land.
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>>55338950
Well i just wondered why that was since it says when it comes into play you sac the lands. Didnt know it was errata'd.
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>>55339002
Decks that play lotus petal play 4. The storm doesn't matter because storm decks are engine decks. Lotus Petal doesn't count for storm after PiF and yet they still play it. This card, if it worked as written, would be a Black Lotus that doesn't add to storm and takes up a land drop. Lotus is beyond broken and still would be with a slight nerf. Combo decks would play it without a doubt. It would cast SnT by itself. It would cast Ad Nauseam with 1 other ritual. You can crop rotate/kotr for it. It would see widespread play if it worked as written and you're retarded if you think otherwise.
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>>55339320

You're right, except regarding some non-Storm archetypes that use Petal (e.g., Dredge sideboards).

Regarding Lotus Vale, yep, it'd be hideous if it weren't errata-ed. The real question is why Mishra's Workshop still isn't restricted in Vintage.

>>55337761

>overpowered?

I hope so. >>55337605 is right, I think.

>>55336989

RELEASE ALL OF THE SPELLS.
>>
>>55340205
Because wizard banning schemes are dumb as all fuck, see modern.

>>55339320
The guy probably missread it as being a rainbow land. The opposite missread of "THIS IS A BLACK LOTUS THAT COSTS A LAND!!"
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>>55338116
is this the ultimate parfait spicy tech?
>>
>>55334113
WE
>>
>>55337761
>Reanimator probably starts playing blue again too.
Unless DRS gets banned, I'm not seeing this. With no cantrips/Mystical other than Looting, which often just reads draw 2+entomb, diluting the deck, the consistency Mystical is pretty moot when you mulligan a lot better without them and go off faster accordingly, dodging most hate that isn't Faerie Macabre, Surgical or DRS+Force (if you're on the draw). The deck has no late game either way unless you happen to draw every piece of discard/Brutality in your deck, so I'd rather just go off turn 1.
>>
>>55342857
Perhaps you're right. My basis of reasoning was that reanimator was more or less what got mystical banned in the first place, but of course we didn't have deathrite then
>>
Any of you guys play Canadian Highlander? We talked about switching the general over to eternal general a while ago so I'm gonna bring it up here. I just started playing a bit online and have a few questions; is it better to spend a bunch of points on moxen and such or spread out your points to have a more consistent powerlevel instead of mulling frantically to find your Lotus?
This format is really fun
>Intuition for Academy Ruins, Painter and Grindstone with a Crucible on the field
>Opponent gives me Painter, play Ruins out of the yard and pass
>He Revokers Grindstone
>I untapand play Grindstone, -2 Dack to steal Revoker, play Tolarian Academy and then Wheel of Fortune
>Cast Reshape for 0 to sac Revoker and Grindstone him out
>>
> Brainstorm is banned but Top is unbanned

How would meta change? More non blue decks? No change? I know I'm a crazy scrub.
>>
>>55345864
>BAN BSTORM!!!! IT OP-OP!!!!! IT HURT MY FE-FEES!!!!11
Average ""pro"" that plays standard.

Legacy, vintage and pauper are "decks powered by strong cards that make the rest of your garbage pile work" instead of "me cram good cards, me is so gud :D" but of course kikery wizards is opposed to the first and has a timmystiffy for the second...
>>
>>55345864
Banning Brainstorm would change the format so much I can't even begin to imagine how it would end up looking like.
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>>55345910
Brainstorm is restricted though
>>
>>55345558
Niche formats should stay in communities that are large and have no difficulty sustaining the player population. It doesn't matter how good they are you're just going to have difficulties sustaining the player base in the long term not to mention you're going to cannibalize attention away from mainstream formats. Promoting formats like Canadian Highlander only depletes the patience players have for exploring new shit, which is why it should be reserved for only big communities where people aren't struggling to get Standard or Modern firing.

To answer your question, if you deck does not depend on any of the point-cards the best thing to do is use your points to buy two moxen and Sol Ring. You want to maximize the number of fast-mana cards in your deck because often it's fast mana that gives you the earliest advantage.
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>>55345933
>If a card is restricted in vintage it should be banned everywhere >:(
Go back to twitch and fellating that blizzy dick kibler, your wife needs more wine.
>>
>>55345988
Hey, don't talk shit about Kibler! >:(
>>
>>55345910
>me cram good cards, me is so gud :D
Vintage would 100% be this if all the good cards weren't restricted. Even now nearly every deck runs 5 mox + black lotus. Legacy would be as well if they weren't banned.
Brainstorm is pretty much that in legacy too, you need to justify why you can't run brainstorm rather than why you should.
That doesn't mean it should be banned, but you'd be retarded if you think putting brainstorm in your deck requires intelligent deck building.
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>>55345910
you do realize that most competitive decks consist solely of cramming a bunch of good cards together right?
>>
>>55346039
I wish more "good" cards were more like Counterbalance, Tendrils, and Veteran Explorer and less like Bolt and Moxen or Deathrite Shaman.
>>
>>55345997
Kibler's a shitter, always has been always will be and his wife is an alcoholic I hope she drinks during pregnancy. Although the kid is probably some random guy and not kibler's.

>>55346013
>>55346039
>being this fucking dumb
No need to tell me more buddy, I recommend standard and modern for you, they're your IQ level.
>>
>>55346150
Same here, I want more synergistic cards as opposed to overpowered stuff that has no deckbuilding requirements apart from color (DRS, Leovold, TNN). The problem is the power levels of synergy decks tend to be bimodal; They're either under powered (Veteran Explorer + Therapy) or so strong they are unhealthy for the format (Counterbalance + Top). Very few of them hit that sweet spot of good, but not oppressive.
>>
>>55346258
>being this mad someone insulted your favorite card
it's just cardboard mate
>>
>>55346284
I can't believe they didn't ban TNN outright the moment they realized they fucked up.

I mean how the fuck can a creature like that be healthy. It doesn't matter whether its good or not in Eternal, the point is how the card reads to any observer. It so flagrantly reads "Protection from everything that you don't want."

You can read a card like Force, Wasteland, or Brainstorm and walk away somewhat confused at their power. But TNN is just something you don't want existing because of how poorly it reflects on your format. It's a card that nobody asked for but we'll play it because it's probably the flagrantly craziest creature ever printed. We all know there are better creatures but TNN at first glance makes you doubt.
>>
>>55346430
To this day I believe the guy who designed TNN for Commander was a faggot Merfolk player. It's the only reason the card was A) created in the first place and B) blue instead of white.
>>
>>55346460
it should at the very least have been UW. not that it would matter since the card should never have been printed in the first place...
>>
legacy deckbuilding seems to be more or less one of the following:
> playset force
> playset bolt
> playset DRS

vs
> playset chalice
> playset tomb
> playset traitors

vs
> playset brainstorm
> playset probe
> playset LED

yet it still has the most diversity so I'm not going to rag on it
>>
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first time posting a deq, flame on

sort of regret the plateaus since you can't land tax them
>>
>>55346760
Approach of the second sun is spicy! How's it been as an alt wincon? 7 man is a lot, even in parfait.
>>
>>55346812

It's the saltiest fucking meatball once they realize you can scoop up the other 6 cards on top of it with Rack at the end of their turn

I have a second in the sideboard as well, usually if games are running long, pacing yourself with lands can get you to the 7 (or 8) needed to hardcast and dig, then chant and hardcast for the win. But the helm combo or going off on belcher also use 8 mana if you're playing it safe with a chant, so I don't think it's that much of a stretch given that they probably have zero answers to the card if you've prisoned them successfully.

It's totally a dead card in hand 90% of the time, but with all the filtering and shufffling you can always make it disappear (or even pitch to chrome mox if you don't care about it). It's scary to cast if you think they are sitting on a counter spell, but then again, you have other wincons.

It's nice to have a single spell wincon that doesn't need to target.

Needs more testing to have a permanent spot, but I have a soft spot for Second Sun since I unpacked two in the amonkhet prerelease and dumpstered on kids with a fog/cycle deck
>>
>>55346284
Top+CB wasn't the borked part of miracles.

Guess which one was it's in the name.
>>
>>55346430
Why is fucking delver still not banned in pauper but cloud is when the culprit is fucking 3/2 beater of speedy clocks on ""control"" decks?
>>
>>55347065
Terminus is a good boi. Dindu nuffin
>>
>>55347081
>Terminus miracle was W.
>Not 1WW or 1W or WW
>fucking W
Why yes wizards, wrath on crack at instant speed at 1 CMC is fair and balancd, why you ask?
>>
>>55347085
Anon it's not a wrath. The creatures just go on the bottom of your deck so you can redraw them later. That's why it's fair :^)
>>
>>55347098
That is the part that infuriates me the most about it.
Putting at the bottom is more costly than kill, since it is much better (no indestructible, graveyard, etc...) but not for terminus to not be 1 fucking cmc.
>>
>>55345558

That does sound pretty awesome. I don't think I'd be in a good position to play it, though, as at the rate my job search is going, I don't think I'll acquire power in the next million years. If I were to give any advice, it would be to get the largest number of synergetic points-cards possible rather than dumping them all into one or two cards. No reason to put too many eggs in one basket, though I confess I'm doing that on purpose in my Commander deck because aspects of the format bother me and should be punished by General "Doinitwrong" Tazri.

>>55345864

I think blue decks would take a big hit, but I don't think several of them would die. Shardless would make a hilarious comeback, Delvers would probably still be viable though significantly less capable, and all Storm variants (incl. High Tide but excluding Charbelcher), S&T, Venezuelan Legends, U/B Reanimator, Mentor, and Stoneblade would probably immediately stop being real decks. It would cut a sizeable portion of diverse decks out of the format wholesale and would replace them with value-clones. (I find it worth pointing out that I have yet to hear a "BAN BRANSTORM" person explain how having a diversity of playstyles and archetypes sustained by a small number of cards is somehow a bad thing given that value.dec has taken over every other format but Vintage.) There's also the fact that Force of Will would take a concurrent dive, so fast-combo would—to misuse a real Lithuanian idiom—put its dick on everything, making all the prison-sex enthusiasts in the format have to re-evaluate their roles.

>>55346013
>>55346039

I think he was referring to crappy chase-rares ("good cards") versus utility cards (Brainstorm et al.). Whether or not duals, etc. should be considered chase-rares is a different question, but he makes an important point: utility cards are good for the game because they enable crazy strategies and break the value-spam mold. Without good utility cards, the die-roll carries the match.
>>
>>55347337
Most people who say dumb shit like
>BAN BSTORM!!!
because they come from modern and they have an overly warped sense of balance and don't grasp the "broken cards make my dogshit pile work".
>>
So little space.

>>55346430

In fairness to them, I remember the same statements said about Morphling and Spiritmonger when I was a kid. Also in fairness to them, creature power-creep is destroying the game and they should've been fired over a literal decade ago.

>>55346460

It definitely smacks of "My Deck should be performing better, so I'll rig the game."

>>55347065

Terminus alone doesn't win games against almost every deck in the format; that was CounterTop's job. Terminus does, however, prevent the deck from being godawful against Manaless Dredge, of all things.
>>
>>55346760
>>55346898

Oh man, Approach is super spicy tech. I love it. It's frustrating that Land Tax and Scroll Rack haven't been reprinted. I'd love to build Parfait but I'd have to sell off parts of another deck to justify picking up the LT and SR as it is. I was hoping they'd get reprinted in Iconic Masters, but no luck... Guess I'm stuck waiting for Eternal Masters 2.
>>
>>55347460
Power Creep has gone in a completely different direction since Spiritmonger and Morphling.

The creep that is predominant right now are creatures that shit value just by being on the battlefield/resolving. It's just fucking card advantage all day everyday now it doesn't matter if it's an ETB effect or if its on combat damage. Anybody who Cubes can tell you the ultimate future of high-powered cubes is that every creature is going to be something with an ETB effect; there's no more room for Morphling-style threats; any bitch has to get you value immediately and not through some convoluted game of sinking mana into a Morphling.

The creep is getting to the point where mere 1-for-1 removal just isn't going to fucking cut it anymore. Path, Swords, Doom Blade, Abrupt Decay - at some point even they won't be considered efficient because everything leaves behind a zombie or spirit or something.

In hindsight there was still a game to be played with Morphling or Spiritmonger. When Titans dominated Standard you're often not going to beat the guy who dropped their first Titan (and who also gets to swing first) because they're drawing 4-cards in value when you might only have gotten 2. Every bomb in Limited or Standard feels that way. You can just drop an idiot and the game's more or less in the bag. You don't have to even try anymore it's just Baneslayers all day every day.
>>
>>55347852
The obvious solution is to reprint all the most powerful 1-1 removal except make them cantrip as well.
>>
>>55341738
>insta lose to wasteland
I would try the sac 2 lands land that taps for 4 colorless so you can tap 1 land for helm too :^)
>>
>>55346760
>2 color parfait
Step it up man
T. 3 color parfait
>>
>>55347961
>3 color parfait
Post list
>>
>>55347980
This
>>
It's blatantly obvious the type TNN should have been instead of Merfolk: Rigger
>>
>>55347460
Terminus shores up your weakness of hyper aggro turning your anus into a blistering hole. Also lets you have g1 vs dredge.
And cb was removed a lotta matchus because lol kgrip/decay.
>>
>>55348676
>And cb was removed a lotta matchus because lol kgrip/decay.
Yep, those cards where pretty much played as 3-4x to try and deal with counterbalance. How much Abrupt Decay do you see now that Counterbalance isn't seeing play? Storm has dropped Decay (and the green splash altogether), most of the BUGx decks with the exception of BUG Delver are running 2x most commonly. Counterbalance was warping the format into BGx because decks for the most part needed Decay to try and stop the endless flow of card advantage that Countertop shits. Now that counterbalance is gone everyone is switching back to cheaper, less color intensive removal. Decay now plays a similar role in BUG decks to Council's Judgment in Wx decks, as more expensive, but useful catchall. That in my opinion is a pretty strong case that Countertop was a problem.

>Terminus shores up your weakness of hyper aggro
As far as pre-ban Miracles, Terminus was just the straw the broke the camels back. I would have been fine with Miracles as a deck if it either had an obnoxious soft lock or a 1 mana instant speed wrath, but both was too much for the format to handle. Ultimately Miracles needed to lose Counterbalance, Terminus, or SDT to bring it's power level into line with the rest of the format. Wizards of course then banned the least offensive card they could have instead of anything actually ban worthy. It really bums me out that SDT payed for Miracle's sins.

>Also lets you have g1 vs dredge
Since when is this even a consideration? Dredge is >1% of the meta and the DRS decks that came about to fight Miracles naturally hate on it; Between the format being flooded in Deathrites and new better grave hate (Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest) Dredge has been super poorly positioned for the last several years, I can't even remember the last time I played against it.
>>
>>55348967
To be fair, Dredge doesn't give two shits about a single Surgical. You need at the very least DRS+Force, Faerie Macabre and hope they don't have 3 dredgers, Leyline or turn 1 Cage/Crypt to have game. Turn 2 hate is most likely getting Cabal Therapied or ignored when you can go off turn 1 vs DNT with no restrictions.
>>
>>55348967
>cb remove by kgrip/decay
The argument for CB/Top being fine is that it existed for many years and saw play but was not dominant until terminus was printed.
>terminus shores up your aggro weakness
You kind of lay out the problem right here, but with terminus miracles had no "real" weaknesses with terminus. The BGx decks that tried to fight it still weren't better than 50/50. The only decks with winning percentages were bad against the rest of the meta.
>g1 vs dredge
I think this is brought up because "dredge is supposed to win g1 every time" or something like that. I see dredge reasonably often in paper and online. Can't remember the last time I lost to it though.
>>
>>55347961
I can see the draw of wanting the run 3 colors, but I'm somewhat skeptical of the stability/viability of a 3 color Parfait list after playing UW Parfait for a few months now. One of the most important cards in UW is City of Traitors/Crystal Veins, which along with Mox Diamonds allow explosive starts and casting your expensive artifacts and enchantments above curve while still keeping Land Tax active.
A 3 color manabase probably couldn't afford to run colorless producing land and would have to drop the CoTs for 3-4x more Fetchlands to fix for not wanting to run duals. Admittedly, UWb seems pretty awesome on paper, you would get access to Chains, Nether Void, and The Abyss; But I think the mana is just too bad, and that coupled with losing the speed from sol lands probably sinks the idea.

>>55349488
I'd say the problem with Dredge isn't that the MB hate it sees is overwhelmingly good against it, it's the sheer amount that's out there currently. DRS is in 40% of decks and it's almost always present a 4 of. That's a lot of incidental, low grade hate to try to fight through, and life only gets worse game 2. It knocks Dredge's game one win percentage down enough that games 2/3 really haunt it now, unlike when you pretty much steamrolled people 100% game 1.

>>55349522
>The argument for CB/Top being fine is that it existed for many years and saw play but was not dominant until terminus was printed.
I think Mentor being printed changed things a bit as well, It gave the deck a way to turn the corner and end games extremely quickly. I've always felt like it was more a case of Miracles reaching a critical mass of complementary pieces rather than any individual piece pushing it over the edge.
>>
>>55349522
I brought dredge up because memery and jokingly so.

Namely, also because dredge is like old cb. People bring more hate and shit on your soft lock.
>>
>>55346628
I have to disagree on this one. Sure brainstorm + force and chalice + tomb is building block of many decks, but then there is plethora of other card synergies, that build the rest of the entirety of legacy:

Lands, Dredge, DnT, Elves, Weird combos like belcher or Oops all spells, Burn, Pox.....

And funny part is, that none of them are bad decks to pick to random FNM event. If it's not ultra long tournament, where consistency is everything, then any rogue deck has fair chance to win.
>>
>>55349594

I agree with your analysis about CounterTop. I'm still salty about the Top ban however. . . It was a card that enabled different decks and strategies other than CTop, and being perhaps the best card selection/filtering for decks that didn't want/couldn't run Blue. The other problem is, would a Terminus ban have brought CTop to a more acceptable level? I'm not so sure.
>>
>>55350050
Mentor is huge issue with top.

Just dropping these here (when is the next big legacy tournament?):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16413&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16326&f=LE

Terminus + Mentor (and Entreat before it) are fucking wreckhouse and ctop only makes the package better. Personally I think both of them should be under the trigger to be banned, but I don't really mind that much to play against them, banning cards is just so slippery slope to get things right. Either you ban all the offending cards or none of them. (*ahem* brainstorm, drs, etc.)
>>
>>55347980
Just throw in some brainstorm, daze, terminus, jace, energy field + rip, blood moon, maybe supreme verdict, trade routes, in the eye of chaos.
>>
>>55350214
You fucking madman, contain yourself.
>>
>>55350214
>3color bmooning
A-anom stop.
The spicyness will kill you.
>>
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>>55305678
:^)
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>>55350277
>what is land tax
Most free mana fixing ayy lmao
>>
>>55317721
HAHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>55350214
Oh and forgot about chains of mephistoles if you go WUB
>>
>>55350346
>not going full pridefait
WHO IS TO STOP ME FROM BEING A GOD?!
>>
>>55350437
>Mirris guile land tax
DONT LET THOSE DREAMS BE MEMES
>>
>>55350595
Autumns edge for more green splash
>>
Saved from page 10
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>>55350595
What does green give us?
We need to brew the ultimate parfait.
>>
>>55354287
5C parfait when?!?!?
>>
>>55317721
4x Dark Ritual, my dude
>>
>>55317721
>Hollowborn Barghest
get rid of this hot garbage, theme be damned you're better off with something lower curve like Vampire Hounds
>>
>>55354287
>>55354307

Green gets you sterling grove to protect your pillowfort, any other good burgeoning-tier cards that let you play around land tax?
effectively coming up with a way to ramp while phasing asymmetrically to keep your land advantage (during your upkeep for the trigger) and then able to explode out with +2 or +3 mana without using rocks, so you can serve business instead of durdling
>>
>>55354287
>What does green give us?

I remember back when there was a 5-color control deck (called "The Deck") the sole green card was Regrowth.
>>
>>55354558
seems like a pretty good splash, but I think older decks just used Argivian Find
>>
>>55354529
Squandered Resources seems like a real dash of spice that lets you run land acceleration like Burgeoning and still keep under Tax or let you explode with mana.
>>
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Is $400 too much for this?
>>
>>55354597

Land Tax + Winter Orb + Squandered Resources
>>
>>55355012
I'd offer 350
>>
So Saffron Olive is an idiot and said this deck was Sligh when actually it's an ancient Mono-Red Control deck (Prison variety, aiming at winning via grinding out Orcish Spy/Millstone).

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-pre-sligh-historic-standard

It actually looks super interesting to me, does anyone else have any spicy mono-red control brews?
>>
>>55355771
So all kind of effects that lets you control over their draws and slam blood moon so they wont shuffle. Basically red blue miracles
>>
> Orcish Spy + Millstone

Das it mane
>>
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>>55347961
>not 4 color parfait
I seriously hope you were just trolling.
>>
>>55355016
Now that's the real good shit.
>>
should it be legal to kill 12 post players?

I think so
>>
>>55358141
HUR I PLAY 4 LANDS OH LOOK NOW I HAVE 2000000000000000 MANA OOPS LOOOKS LIKE YOU LOSE
>>
>>55358141
Just play Storm my dude
>>
>>55358141
>>55358173

Wait, you're mad about 12-post?

...why?

It's best matchup was against Counterbalance-Top Miracles, which is gone.
>>
>>55356266
This looks fun as fuck, even if it's not competitive.
>>
>>55358500
I play fair decks so theres that

I get that blood moon decks and shit stomp them but I dont play those decks
>>
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>>55358852
If your not willing to try tech or switch decks your just going to have to accept that this is a bad matchup for whatever you play and hope to dodge it. 12post is awful against the meta now that it's lost both SDT and it's best matchup, so I don't think you'll see it too often out in the wild. If you play it regularly at your LGS it might be time to start adjusting to your local meta if it's this much of a problem instead of complaining like an autistic man-child. Tl;dr: Man up and own your deckbuilding decisions instead of putting the blame on others.
>>
>>55360264
idk maybe i just suck

im losing to this meme enchantment deck as 4c leovold
>>
>>55360378

>12 post
>enchantment

I... what? A 12post list running an enchantment? I thought it was all Eldrazi and Artifacts. What enchantment are they running?
>>
>>55361228
Might be talking about a different meme enchantment deck, like parfait.
>>
>>55358141
>>55358173
>>55358500
>>55358852
>>55360264
>>55360378
>>55361228
>>55361674

Mediocre Legacy players.
/ignore
>>
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>>55361739
>>
>>55358852
>I play fair decks
No you play "durdle hurdle of durp durp me durdle hurfl fow 562 turns hurff why is me lose?????" shit piles.

Here is how to rape 12 post
1. Wasteland
2. Ram his head in
3. Watch his tears
>>
>>55362493
You know 12post often plays 4x pithing needle for the express purpose of turning off wasteland right? I wouldn't count of just wasteland being enough to beat them.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f34zcC9cRE

reid duke with some old ass lady going ham in the background
>>
>>55350144

Mentor is just generally a huge issue. For that matter, Prowess was a huge issue on its own, only putting it on a 3-mana beater and letting it make further Prowess beaters was pretty stupid, even by Wizzerds's standards. Anyone who says Terminus was the problem because it stopped aggro clearly only played against Venezuelan Legends. Yeah, I'm keeping it alive.

>>55355012

Yes.

>>55355771

No one's ever questioned the idiocy of Saffron Olive.

>>55358141

Why? They're keeping the Big-gro dream alive, even if it's dead everywhere but Standard and Vintage because it's a terrible plan.

>>55358852

I sympathize with what you're saying, but I can't get on board with the "fair" versus "unfair" distinction. We're talking about Legacy. Nothing is fair, even if it plays like a traditional Maygick deck. Rest assured that Post dies to pretty much everything that disrupts its gameplan or goes faster, so if it's giving you trouble, you should probably try Wasteland, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, or Tendrils of Agony.

>>55362737

Then play Winter Orb. Or Ensnaring Bridge. Or Swords to Plowshares. Or Reanimator. Or The Other Reanimator. Or Dredge. Or Manaless Dredge. Or Storm. Or The Other Storm. Or The Other Other Storm (Bryant Cook™). Or Grix Delver. Or some other long-inferior form of Delver. Or anything else that doesn't die on turn seven to a single creature.

I've never lost a match to 12–Post, and I don't remember ever losing a game to it. I wish it were viable, but seriously, that's the worst possible deck to be playing in Legacy that's still considered viable. Maybe not Hypergenesis-bad, but close.
>>
>>55363035
the fair unfair is pretty clear. fast mana or cheating something into play is unfair

its not "UNFAIR BAN THAT SHIT", its just called unfair. also you know, getting turned 1 2 games in a row isnt exactly fun
>>
>>55363035
>Then play Winter Orb. Or Ensnaring Bridge. Or Swords to Plowshares. Or Reanimator. Or The Other Reanimator. Or Dredge. Or Manaless Dredge. Or Storm. Or The Other Storm. Or The Other Other Storm (Bryant Cook™). Or Grix Delver. Or some other long-inferior form of Delver. Or anything else that doesn't die on turn seven to a single creature.

I agree, just pointing out that 12post as a deck has taken Wasteland into account at the deckbuilding level. Saying Wasteland beats 12post is like saying Force beats Storm, It's a decent start, but probably not enough on its own to win you games if your playing something "ultra fair" like D&T.
>>
>>55363184
Try modern, more your speed.
>>
>>55363206
Unless your deck is retard slow, the wastewrench should be enough overkill m8.
>>
>>55363221
no, i still think legacy is the best format
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>>55363250
Yed, but you are too slow for it. And I don't mean clockwise.
>>
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>>55363264
>>
>>55363035
>I've never lost a match to 12–Post, and I don't remember ever losing a game to it. I wish it were viable, but seriously, that's the worst possible deck to be playing in Legacy that's still considered viable. Maybe not Hypergenesis-bad, but close.

M-MUD is still cool tho, right?
>>
>>55363313
Better than 12-post at least. Not sure if it can compete on the same slot with Eldrazi stompy.
>>
>>55338116
with the new rules changes, you can just put this on the field if there is a blood moon in play, then remove the blood moon and tap it for 3 mana. no need to sac anything.

was thinking about making a deck with blood moon, lotus vale, scorched ruins, and karoo lands. should be pretty cool.
>>
>>55363184
I generally agree with >>55363035, any deck worth it's salt in Legacy is attacking the format from an angle that is inherently unfair or asymmetrical. Examples:
•Vial+Hatebears to cheat on mana and tax your opponent
•Chalice/Trinishphere/Blood Moon + Sol Lands to lock people out
•Wasteland + DRS to take your opponents off curve while remaining yourself
•Rituals + storm stuff to combo out and kill
•Veteran Explorer + Therapy to ramp basics because most decks play few to none.

Point is all these decks (even the classic "fair" decks like D&T and Nic Fit) are trying to do something inherently asymmetrical that their opponent can't interact with. "Fair" or "Unfair" is just an arbitrary distinction that people slap on decks that really has no broadly applicable meaning.
>>
>>55363486
>turn 1 mother or vial is the same as turn 1 7/7 flying life link draw 14 cards + whatever else you can play in 14 cards
>>
>>55363549
Methinks you missed the entire point. Every deck inherently does something unfair/asymmetrical in legacy, It's just a matter of what they choose to do and how fast they do it. My point is the "fair"/"unfair" dichotomy that has been going around for ages in Legacy is an inherently flawed idea.
>>
>>55363486
3 unfair things in your list are just fast mana.
>>
>>55363615
>every deck has a game plan
yeah, we know
>>
>>55363643
I've made my case, it's all up to how you look at fair vs unfair. This is basically an argument over semantics and how you define "fair", I've given my definition, why don't you give yours instead of making snide remarks?
>>
>>55363743
Because he is a shitter whose opinion is to be ignored.
>>
>>55363743
Want to talk about archetypes next, because I think the definition on them is mostly full of horseshit and hasn't applied to this game properly ever.
>>
>>55363810
>people who use combo/control/etc... For vintage
>>
>>55363743
Fair: Lots of avenues to interact with your opponent, sufficient time to interact with your opponent (be in the reference frame of magic as a whole, don't assume every deck can have FoW)
Creatures: The Tappening is textbook fair, lots of colors have removal spells, your can block with your creatures, summoning sickness slows down creature strategies, etc, which is why wizards forces it into standard so much.
Unfair is pretty much the opposite, limited ways to interact, can kill you faster than you can reasonably respond. Storm is the archetypal unfair deck, it's fast and hard to interact with (again, in magic as a whole, not every card is FoW). For these reasons Wizards publicly states they'll never make new storm cards.
Every other type of deck is somewhere in between, some decks are a little unfair, some are very unfair.
I wasn't following the whole post chain super closely before, but that's my take on it.
>>
Does graveyard hate slow storm down?
>>
>>55363901
No Past in Flames, No stormerinos.
>>
>>55363549

Clearly, Swords to Plowshares does nothing in the matchup.
>>
>>55363875
What he was saying was that pretty much all legacy decks are utilizing some form of unfair engine/packet. But to me chalice of the void and trinisphere are incredibly fair cards and is only fair to blow the fuck out of unfair deckbuilding style. It's just the juggle between how linear (effective) you want your deck to be against balanced decks, that run the proactive or reactive answers to meta.
>>
>>55364019
I think chalice and trinisphere are fine on their own, but Sol lands and spirit guide are unfair. When your opponent is forcing you to pay 3 mana for spells before you've even played a land, that's definitely not in the territory of interactive magic.
>>
>>55364045
Hyup. Fair/Unfair is so much about semantics, that it's probably quite ridiculous to use those terms to look at this game and it's engines.
>>
>>55364076
I disagree. Fast mana is just very unfair. Even before really good pay offs came along, dark ritual into Hypnotic Specter was considered bullshit. In the context of legacy (and even more so vintage) it's a little less meaningful, as there's a lot of fast mana options and with that the majority deck can suddenly 'become' unfair with a few changes, but in terms of magic as a whole fair vs unfair is pretty meaningful.
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>>55363901
It depends on the storm variant. Grave hate against ANT is good because the lean on PIF hard to generate lethal storm, TES on the other hand will often shrug it off because they focus on winning with Empty of Ad Naus.
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>>55363901
Yes but it usually doesn't beat them. ANT is a past in flames deck and likes to get threshold on its cabal rituals so it's affected the most, but they have ways around it like Ad Naus, Etw, and tutor chains. TES will mostly ignore it; they rarely need PiF. I think Doomsday will completely ignore it, more or less.
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>>55363757
why are you acting like magic pros dont use the term

its a real thing whether you like it or not
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>>55366310
Just because the pros (or anyone else) say something doesn't magically make it smart or true. There are plenty of terms and ideas in any community that get ingrained and used even though they aren't all that accurate or are misapplied (I could go on for days about this in my field of work). The term "fair" might apply very well to Modern or Standard, but doesn't work very well in Legacy where almost all decks are inherently asymmetrical in how they function. Legacy decks are almost universally built on engines/packages that lets them cheat/accelerate on mana and do asymmetrical/"unfair" things. With very few exceptions all legacy decks are somewhat "unfair", It's a matter of where they lie between "fair" and "unfair". Basically, I'd argue deck fall in a continuum and more fit a "shades of grey" model as opposed to a strict binary classification of "fair/unfair"; By forcing the binary 0 or 1 model it's a term that is effectively so coarse as to be useless.
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>>55366712
I was about to say something like this, but in far fewer big words. This guy knows whats up.
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>>55366712
Though it's true that most Legacy decks have a gameplan that involves creating an asymmetrical game, "fair" and "unfair" have a very clear meaning in mtg. >>55363875 gave a good explanation.
Fair decks are decks that don't interact a lot with the opponent and don't rely on broken card interactions and game winning combos. Unfair decks are uninteractive and mostly ignore what the opponent is doing, and commonly rely on unintentional card interactions and/or unfair cards (OP cards that exist because of idiotic, bad design) that lead to closing the game in a single turn.
I don't see what's confusing about this. Yeah, just because a pro says something doesn't mean he's right, but these terms are widely used and understood in the mtg community. Saying they are misused by everyone is just being stubborn and arrogant.
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>>55367835

I've got to side with Big Red on this one, though I definitely see your point. The major problem I have with the term "fair" is that it's hard to classify getting wasted/Thalia'd/Mooned out of the game in opening turns as fair, even if the deck that's playing the card is value-control or "midrange" (another term I don't like). I tend to go with "interactive" versus "non-interactive" because I think that more closely matches the real dichotomy.

But anyway, any other Storm players switched over to straight Grixis lists? How've they been working?
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The reason I like Legacy (and am interested in Vintage and Pauper) is because of their "unfairness." Standard is a very "fair" format. There's no fast mana right now, there's no way to reanimate a large creature before turn four, there's no spell-based combo at all (unless we count New Perspectives, but from what I understand that deck is dead because it can't out-pace aggro), and thus everyone is sort of forced into winning via middrange aggro creatures. Once you strip out all of the "unfairness" out of magic that's what you're left with, and I dunno about what you guys think but I kinda find playing Standard (and to a lesser extent, Modern) so dull that it makes me want to die.
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>>55368611
Don't dismiss Standard as a format. The focus on midrange decks is a recent phenomena, there have been times where combo decks where viable in Standard. Hell, just recently there was Copycat. Though obviously that was a mistake by WotC and an exception. They try to make decks be fair, understandably.
But the quality of Standard varies all the time. You can't say that the entire format is crap when it's constantly changing. I'd honestly play Standard if it had a slower rotation and MtG in general was less expensive. But due to those reasons I stick to non-rotating formats.
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>>55368767

I think Standard COULD be cool, because I really loved that Mirage-Tempest Throwback Standard Gauntlet they put together for MTGO. That was SUPER fun, and unlike any modern Standard environment.
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>>55367835
Just because the guy sounds like he's a pompous ass doesn't make him wrong. The idea of fair vs unfair has never really applied all that well to decks in Legacy. Decks like zoo don't survive for a reason, they are trying to play fair magic when pretty much nothing else actually is. >>55368351hit it on the head.
>>
No one is stopping you from playing a "fair" legacy deck with your friends
Just don't expect to see anything remotely "fair" in a competitive environment when people are trying to win prizes like cash or P9 or duals, etc
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>>55368351
>The major problem I have with the term "fair" is that it's hard to classify getting wasted/Thalia'd/Mooned out of the game in opening turns as fair
Those are completely fair though. Wasteland and Blood Moon punish nonbasics, you can totally get around them by playing basic lands. Nothing unfair about it. Blood Moon can be unfair when it's dropped turn 1, but the real culprit in this case are sol lands. Those are unfair.
Thalia is also fair. You can say that costing only 2 makes her too strong, but her effect is still symetrical. Nothing unfair about that either.
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>>55336989
Mystical tutor makes me diamonds.
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>>55368351
I switched my TES list over to straight grixis after the SDT ban and haven't looked back. My winrate has been up overall since the SDT ban, which is i think due to not needing to dedicate 5x slots in the SB to keep from autolosing to countertop. I've been really happy with the 2x Defense Grid I've been running, they really put the Force decks on the spot, Echoing Truth has also been great as a general catch-all.
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>>55369193
If a "fair" deck has a multiple of "unfair" cards that is heavily leans on to function does that make it "unfair"? Red Prison decks are trying end the game as soon as possible, ideally the first turn, with a permanent that may not win immediately but effectively makes it so the opponent cannot win. That's not much different from 10 drills on t1.
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>>55369051
4c leo (or Czech pile), which is probably the most fair legacy deck atm, is also probably the best deck right now. Currently legacy is flooded with fair control decks backed up by deathrite shaman
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>>55369394
Not that guy, but as it was said before in the thread a binary description isn't really good enough, fair/unfair should really be on a spectrum. For example, all the 3/4c control decks are very fair, they don't cheat on mana, play tons of interaction, and win through conventional means. Meanwhile, d&t, which I would still consider a fair deck, is definitely less fair the the control decks. It cheats on mana with vial and leverages symmetrical taxing effects while being constructed to not care about them. Both are fair decks, but one is certainly more fair than the other.

As for blood moon decks, I would classify those as unfair because of their reliance on sol lands (which are inherently unfair). But again, it's not quite as unfair as belcher or rb reanimator
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>>55339138
It was set up like that originally because when it was printed, you couldn't use a card's activated abilities while its ETB trigger was on the stack.
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>>55369584
>some decks are more unfair or fair than others
THIS ISNT NEWS TO ANYONE
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>>55369645
Yeah, but the question was if unfair cards in "fair" decks made them unfair. Obviously it makes them less fair than decks with only fair cards, but not necessarily "unfair"
>>
Unfair decks: Fun to play, unfun to play against
Fair decks: Unfun to play, unfun to play against
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>>55369736
this 100%
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>>55296823
>Playing rb reanimator
>Against probably grixis delver
>G1T1 Unmask, taking FoW, proceed to combo off in t1
>G2T1, guy mulligans to 5, pass cause he didn't had a land. proceed to Unmask a surgical extraction and combo off.
>Guy gets salty cuz BR reanimator needs no skill
I feel like people should not play legacy
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>>55369831

>getting the turn one nut-draw in Reanimator two games in a row

sounds like a bullshit greentext story to me, cap'n. t. Reanimator player.
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>>55369976
I don't need your approval
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>>55369831
I don't get it. Rb reanimator doesn't actually need skill, so what are you trying to prove?
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>>55370048
that legacy needs no skill at all but people still mastutbates to the fact that muh complex format and then cry when they get beaten by the easiest deck ever
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>>55370048
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>>55369976
The muligan is weak with this one.

t. Other reanimator player
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>>55370067
>>55370048
oh wait i read that wrong, carry on
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>>55370018

Do you know the ODDS of not only having, turn one, the correct collection of cards that allow you to interact with your opponent's hand but also "go off" turn one? You would need to have a very specific opening seven out of your sixty-card deck. It's more likely you're just shitposting.
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>>55370093
And? you still have not proven i didn't. in fact you cant. in fact the only thing you are doing is falling for the bait. thanks for the u's
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>>55370093
you need 3 not counting a mana source
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>>55370114

Dark Ritual
Reanimation Spell
Targeted Discard
Card to pitch to Unmask (which was used in the example)
Spell to get a creature in the Graveyard
Creature to bin (if previous spell isn't Entomb)
Mana Source

Six to Seven.
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>>55370197
>discard 3 times

No

Ritual
Entomb
Reanimate or w/e
unmask
pitch to unmask (doesnt really count)
mana source
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>>55368351
I switched to straight grixis and have only briefly looked back. The mana is better, I can play more basics. I dropped decay for ETruth. Swapped xaantid swarm for defense grid. It's better this way.
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>>55370415
thats still 6 specific cards...
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>>55370415

That's literally the exact same thing I posted, you just assumed you were having Entomb instead of Faithless Looting or Collective Brutality. And frankly having the correct extra card to pitch to unmask is a big deal when you've got Chancellors, Tidespouts, Iona, Chrome/Lotuses, Faithless, and lands all being cards you can't pitch.
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>>55370491
Many of which have 8 to 12 redundant copies.
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>>55370519
We're not trying to tell you it happens every game. However, you are underestimating it's chances. The nuts does not always include unmask. Some times it's a turn one chancellor, sometimes it's a thoughtseize with the right mana sources, sometimes it's unprotected but you know what your opponent is on. There are multiple permutations.
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>>55370679

Yeah but we're talking about a very specific post where he got the nut, with Unmask, two games IN A ROW. Can you turn one with RB Reanimator? Absolutely. But your odds of doing it are worse than Oops all Spells or Goblin Charbelcher.
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>>55370491

keep in mind you run multiple copies, and the 6th card has more than 4 copies because it can be any pitchable, not one of 4 specific pitchables, and you get 7 cards, AND even after all that, you can mulligan with a chance for 6 cards

you can actually calculate the probability of all of these pieces landing in your opening 7 (or your mulligans) but i'm not going to do it because i am lazy

http://www.statisticshowto.com/hypergeometric-distribution-examples/
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I'd post this in an ask a Judge thread, if there was one up, but if there's writing on the back of a card, is it still tournament legal while sleeved? I have the opportunity to get a few duals for super fucking cheep ($30 a pop) because the original owner got them at like age 10 and wrote his fucking name in marker on the back. They only look lightly played when sleeved, but I'm concerned they're considered "marked" for the purpose of tournament play.
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>>55370767
If it's sleeved in opaque sleeves, it should be fine
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>cant beat fucking blue faries with 4c leovold or shardless bug

fuck me i should fucking kill myself im so fucking tilted
>>
> don't actually know how to play legacy because all i do is goldfish

who /solitaire/ here?
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>>55370805
I goldfish a shitload because muscle memory is good for my deck. But playing real games is more important.
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>>55370767
as long as you cant tell the difference between the cards while sleeved, they are playable
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>>55370780
>>55371018
Sounds good, thanks guys.
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>>55370788
just play more than 2 pyroblast in the board
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>>55371050
i have 1 pyro and 2 red elemental blasts
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>>55371080
i mean, depending on how blue your meta is you could go up to 4 or 5
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>>55371296
My meta is xmage
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>>55370728
>But your odds of doing it are worse than Oops all Spells or Goblin Charbelcher.
>>
>never heard of unfair and fair in legacy

are you nerds serious right now

its been a think for like forever
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>>55373577

Probably about the same as the odds with Charbelcher, but definitely less likely than with All Spells.

Poops also mulligans better.
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>>55354469
I read up on it. Good advice. Thanks.

>>55354497
Popular opinion is kind of split on this one. I lowered the count and added the Vampire Hounds. That was a good idea. The Vampire Hounds gave me another discard outlet.

So Churchill stands at the following:

1- Dark Ritual x4, Sinister Concoction x3
2- Hymn to Tourach x4, grave Strength x4
3- Thraben Fouldbloods x3, Vampire Hounds x2, Victimize x3
4- Mortis Dogs x4, Flesh Allergy x2
5- Hound of the Farbogs x4
6- Caustic Hound x2
7- Hollowborn Barghest x1
24 Lands (to be jazzed up later)

That makes a neat curve of 7-8-8-6-4-2-1.

16 creatures
20 other spells
24 lands

Thanks for the help. Any thoughts on the new list?
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Does anyone know of a card that can sacrifice a player?
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>>55375623
How does only 8 kills and the worst mana in the history of mtg including half your starters don't make black.dec mulligan better than, well anything?
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>>55375977
>not understanding the rules
Standard babby pls go
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>>55376529

Don't knock it until you've tried it. You'd be surprised how often it just does its thing, especially because people seem to have forgotten how to build sideboards and target their Thoughtseizes since 2013.

Speaking of Poops, has anyone here tried maindeck Chancellor of the Annex? Been goofing around with it on Cockatrice to positive results, but I don't trust the shuffler there at all.
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>>55375977
Phage
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>>55368767
That said, I was playing Aetherflux Storm in standard since Kaladesh came out and only recently took it apart. It was good against aggro because you're running three 1/4 lifelinkers for two and four 2/4's for three. Then they printed all the artifact hate (dispossess, by force, also gideon's intervention) and things got hard.
>>
My local store wants me to build 20 decks for under $15 each (average), to be faced against each other. I'm thinking of splitting the decks up into aggro, combo, control, tempo and midrange, but I need help with tempo. What are some solid tempo threats that I can pick up for under a dollar, preferably under 50 cents? I can't put nimble mongoose in ALL the decks.
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>>55379838
Also, since I'm making the decks to be paired against each other they don't have to be legal in any format or follow a banlist.
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>>55379838
Any of the splashable delve creatures are probably good. NinjaBearDelver is pretty cheap I think. Memory Lapse is dirt cheap and a huge tempo play. Mantis Rider is a powerful, if expensive clock, Seeker of the Way or any other prowess dude would be good I guess. Introducing new layers to PlowUnder.dec would be pretty funny. For the love of god put Shadowmage Infiltrator into a deck.
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>>55379838
Go full paupertard.
Believe me.
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>>55380526
My original plan was to go full pauper, then I realized that pauper decks are $40 each. I figured why not replace some of the expensive commons with less expensive uncommons.
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>>55379973
These are great suggestions, thanks!
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>>55380636

>pauper decks are $40 each

what is even happening to this game
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Is Death and Taxes still around, or would buying into it now effectively be investing in half of a modern D&T deck and a pile of legacy staples?

Thalia a cute
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>>55381307
>$87 Izzet Delver list
Snow-covered basics were the biggest mistake WOTC ever made.
>>
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I'm building a themed deck. Pure black. Focus on Necromancy and it's themes.

You may suggest me... Things. Your most unholy of things.

> Pic related. Because necromancy and because I actually have it.
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>>55381413
Both mono white D&T and BW Eldrazi and Taxes have been doing pretty well recently.
>>
>>55381477
>>55381413
Woops, misread that, I thought you asked how good it was in modern.
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>>55375977
are there any random high CMC creatures you can easily cheat into play to capitalize on this?

Affinity creatures come to mind but wondering if there are morphs, etc that do the job of high mana gen
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>>55381491
Also this is a noob question but are interrupts actually treated as such (mana abilities that can't lose priority) in legacy?
Have all interrupts been eratta'd to hold priority?
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>>55381467
ya think you're hot shit don'tcha

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nourishing-lich-2k16/
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>>55375309
>reading comprehension: the post
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>>55381307
You can get t1 decks for 10-20 tix online and you can budget to get em for 2-5
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>>55381413
It's OK as a cheaper deck, but it's obviously not optimal and is pretty poorly positioned. Some guy on reddit a month or so ago did an analysis of deck win rates on MTGO and found that D&T had an ~40% game winrate over ~120 matches against the current meta, which is pretty piss poor.
>>
I want to play vintage mtg with some friends, any sites/sources of fake reprints? I'd print them out myself but that's a lot of work.
inb4: some reprint set, classic frame and all, that I'm unaware of
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>>55382253
r/bootlegmtg is what your looking for. It's literally an entire group dedicated to finding the best looking proxy cards.
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>>55382265
tyvm
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>>55381515
Speaking of nourishing lich, if I wanted to make this deck for under $15 for >>55379838 what do you guys reckon are the best lifegain cards under a dollar?
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>>55378181
I played the deck for a few weeks, and switched to more consistent combo decks for a reason.
>>
>>55382607
>>55382607
SHE'S GOING DOWN

ABANDON THREAD
>>
>>55381502
Interrupts no longer exist. All interrupts are now instants.




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