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"Shotguns aren't THAT overpowered" edition

>Savage Worlds Troves
https://mega.nz/#F!mo9nibSC!YIhv5nyoPb2dmY6-scZLgg

>Savagepedia
https://savagepedia.wikispaces.com/

>Web Tools
http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/
https://jdgwf.github.io/savage-worlds-web-tools/#/

>Previous Thread
>>55171282

Favorite official setting?
>>
>>55197791

Just a friendly reminder.
>>
Obviously Lankhmar. I love me Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories and having an official setting is the best.
>>
Does anybody streamline their game? If so, how? What rules do you ignore / change?

I'm interested in Savage Worlds, but I tend to run with rules-lite games, and it seems just a bit too crunchy for my taste.
>>
Savage Rifts, I guess. So far I can't say I'm all that wowed by any official setting.

Are there any decent supers settings for it?

>>55331003
While it's not exactly rules light, it's a shitload lighter than many other games out there, the basic mechanics are pretty damn simple. Most of the book is character options, situational shit, etc. Give the test drive a look to get a picture of the basic mechanics.
>>
You guys ever run one of the published campaigns? My university's gaming group is advertising open spots for Necessary Evil this semester, with Rippers starting in the Spring semester once Nexessary Evil wraps up. Does anyone have any thoughts on either?
>>
>>55331685
I ran Sundered Skies once, going to run it again with a /bunch/ of houserules and narrative changes due to ethics boards dictating certain things are outright refused within the uni gaming group I go to. Also the fact that Sundered Skies was written for Explorers, published during Deluxe, and has an expansion which refers to Deluxe Explorers page numbering; AND has wild shifts in tone and mechanics in different sections, so a bunch of updates and "this doesn't make any sense" updates are needed to the bloody thing. Also the fact there's only two Island Guides, thus making every island that isn't Gateway or the Shattered City a bit lacklustre by comparison in terms of Lazy GM Content.

It'll be worth it when it's finished, though.
>>
>>55326977
>"Shotguns aren't THAT overpowered" edition
But they could be.
>>
>>55331003
Fuse Strength and Vigor
Default all skills to the appropriate stat (advances that reference skills kick in when you roll to use that skill still)
Forget Charisma exists.
Use Savage Armory for weapons instead of using the weapon list (or use an even more simplified one, where you only have weapon categories).

I don't think you can get any simpler than that.
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>>55331987
If he wanted to simplify things, why would you suggest adding an additional book whose sole purpose is creating your own weapons from a point system, over the ones in core?
How does that simplify things?
Like at all?
>>
>>55331651
I'll keep that in mind.

>>55331987
Thanks!
>>
>>55332019
Eh, it's a wash. I just really don't like the core weapons list, and I think having the more consistent SA list is actually less mentally taxing (for me).

Which is why I mentioned weapon categories there, which would be simpler than both.
>>
>>55332040
So I just cracked open my dusty ole copy of the armoury after figuring out which directory it was left in.
Again, I seriously have to ask why? All it does is seem to simplify things that didn't need simplified, while adding a bunch of fiddly nobs on. I'm not seeing any of the flaws core's weapons have being addressed either.

Also. Do you really need a stat to tell you that your spear can't be conveniently sheathed around your hip? I'm genuinely curious what draws people to this outside of guidelines for people unfamiliar with the system for making their own weapons.
>>
>>55332227
I guess we just agree to disagree then. I feel it simplifies exactly the things it needs to simplify, and fixes exactly the things I sorta have issues with.

And yes, adding a cumbersome tag to things does help reminding the players and is a good additional level of balance on weapons/equipment load that is on a good level of compromise between "count the individual weight of everything" and "just ignore it".

Again, imo.
>>
Hey /svg/ I'm completely new to the system and attempting to make a character for a friends superhero campaign.
I'd like some advice on how to turn my power idea into mechanics.

She has the ability to morph her body into and grow animal parts at will. Like giant bat wings from her shoulders or a hard carapace over her skin.
>>
>>55332344
There's a Shape Change power, use that probably.
>>
>>55332227
>Also. Do you really need a stat to tell you that your spear can't be conveniently sheathed around your hip?
I think that's more for weapon-creation / stat-balancing than the belief it's necessary to inform people of that or they'll play it wrong.
>>
>>55332344
I'm at work so I don't have the supers companion in front of me, but that sounds like a few different powers. Savage Worlds has power trappings, which let you customize and personalize each power. Shape change will definitely help for most of what you want, but you can always take extra powers and flavor them to do what you want. Buy flight, saying when you use it bat wings sprout, get the armor power and say a beetle's carapace is forming. You could buy the bolt power and when you use it say you're shooting porcupine quills, use boost trait to say you've gained gorilla's strength or boost your notice buy saying you've given yourself eagle eyes.

There are quite a few ways to make your ideas work, and I hope you have fun with your game!
>>
So I just cannot fucking remember to use gang up modifiers in my game. My players don't remember either, so it doesn't give them any benefit, but we all came to Savage Worlds from DnD, so when we start combat we kind of get into a DnD style mindset. Does anyone have any tips for remembering situational rules? A cheat sheet or something?
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>>55334522
there is a cheat sheet in the back of the book I am sure. Just copy/paste or just print that page for a DM screen insert.
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>>55334772
Oh shit. That would be great. Thanks Anon, I should have looked.
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>>55334807
Here is the tables as a PDF I found it after a quick google search. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/peg-freebies/SWD_GM_Tables.pdf
>>
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>>55326977
I bought the Savage RIFTS boxset. It was a great buy and worth the money IMO it came with dice and Bennies. I cant wait for more splats I can only hope they figure out how to bring the anti monster over so I can be a vampires walking nightmare.
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>>55334835
Thanks Anon, I appreciate it. These are exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
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>>55334900
How are you liking RIFTS? I've never even touched the original, and am curious about the new Savage RIFTS release but I know next to nothing about it.
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>>55334994
Well classic RIFTs is pretty damn hard to get into. Its a dinosaur of an age of RPGS that is great to pull ideas from but the system is super clunky. Savage RIFTS is really damn fun and it empowers the player characters to do over the top things. I played a few sessions with freinds and I rolled up a full conversion combat cyborg. The party was A Glitterboy Pilot, A bird man layline walker, A human Mystic, and a Human Technomancer, and a dragon and me the rage filled murder machine.

Unlike regular rifts it gives you a straight up reason to be working together and that is the Tomorrow Legion, basically a group of Humans and Debees banding together for freedom and protection from the various monsters that come from the rifts and the Coalition states.

Next to Deadlands, Savage RIFTS is a really really big recommend.
>>
>>55335092
Not that you even had to try very hard, but I think you just convinced me to pick up a copy. If my players aren't interested, at the very least it'll be full of interesting things I can use in other games.
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>>55335149
Yeah one of the things they really used to amp up the stuff over all are the mega powers, basically some of the classes can use the mega powers at the start but others have to take an edge that allows them to use them. Basically mega powers take the regular powers list and give each a really insane version to use. Most of the damage dealing powers convert it over to Mega Damage which is a key part of the RIFTS setting.
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>>55335194
That sounds kind of awesome, actually. Though I'm sure they'd only be usable in RIFTs or else they'd be way too unbalanced.
>>
I just did a session 0.5 of sorts to try and learn the game with my group. It was a load of fun, but I allowed all weapons in the core rule book. I'm also using the fantasy companion book and my question is: with guns existing, will monsters I throw at them die before they even get close? (The only player that has guns chose the pistoleer archetype and has 2 glocks).
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>>55335459
Well the edge you need to take to get it is a legendary edge.
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>>55327310
Unless you have a three-round burst rifle (which is a balance issue in itself), a shotgun is overpowered. This has nothing to do with its damage. This has everything to do with its +2 to hit because the developers do not have any fucking clue how important a +2 bonus is in their system. There is something in a system called number range which refers to the scale of numbers the system uses in its core mechanics. Also referred to as granularity. The more granular the system is, the less that a +1 bonus (or its equivalent) will matter. The less granular a system is, the more it will matter. A +1 in D&D is almost meaningless: a 5% increase in chance of success. A +1 in Savage Worlds is anywhere from an 8% to a 25% increase in chance of success.

Give a shotgun to an inbred somali and instead of hitting you 25% of the time he is hitting you 75% of the time. Give it to an average american soldier and the difference is less but still significant. When in reality, using a shotgun requires a good deal of skill. It is not a "spray and pray" weapon. Giving it a bonus to hit is genuinely retarded. In d20 system I could see it giving a +1 or +2, but in Savage Worlds +2 is a fucking game changer of a bonus. It is the difference between "I might make this roll" and "I'm going to make this roll."

Give a shotgun to a PC who gets sharpshooter and every single "hit" he gets will be with a raise as long as he is standing still. This will give his weapon an average of 16.8 damage which wipes nearly everything in the fucking book.

The three-round burst argument is fucktarded, it's like saying "well the holocaust happened, therefore genocide is okay." No, three round burst is still a problem because turning it on makes the gun almost twice as effective. Guess what, faggot? If that were true, handing out m16s to the hajis would increase US casualty rates by 50%! But that doesn't happen, you know why? Because 3 round burst is not that fucking effective!
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>>55335502
Well it depends on the monster, like damage more or less can explode like crazy all the time. Like I had a Jersey Devil die to a lever action rifle at medium range in a Deadlands game I ran. The dice exploded up to about 40 ish damage and there is no saving from that. The thing with guns is that they are an equalizer which means everyone can get one if you plan on using them in your setting, same with magic.
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>>55335542
Ah, I think I see what your saying. I'll have to take a look at the bestiary some more so I can understand their strengths and weaknesses better.
I'm just hoping stuff like wyrms and dragons don't get instagibbed without lucky rolls.
>>
>>55335092
>>55334900
They could not possibly have chosen a worse system to reboot Rifts than Savage Worlds. I mean, it's hard to pick a system worse than Savage Worlds in the first place. In terms of generic systems there are FAR better options: GURPS, Cortex, and FATE, to name a few.

Savage Worlds takes a decent core mechanic and lumps on a shitty wild die that is arbitrarily assigned because "muh plot" and fills the character with bennies that require the player to know all of their uses to use effectively. Not to mention, Benny effectiveness is heavily dependent on session length, so if you don't play the recommended 4 to 6 hours the game becomes wildly unbalanced.

The game is full of garbage trap options like in 3.5, the chargen is basically minmaxing Flaws like in GURPS except worse, shotguns are brokenly powerful giving a flat +2 to hit which in this system is basically only missing on a 1. They also do broken-ass damage because of exploding dice. The exploding dice also turn combat into a slogfest occasionally punctuated by someone actually dying; usually from a fucking ridiculous amount of damage.

I played Savage Worlds for a good three years now. Never will play it again, it is an arsed system that is half narrative bullshit, half autistic wargame, and entirely terrible.
>>
>>55335646
Well things like Wyrms and Dragons are normally gonna be wild cards and player character equivalent or more so therefore will have all the same benefits your players will.
>>
So the powers in Savage Worlds are basically pretty combat focused, and don't have very long durations. I've basically combined the rituals from Lankhmar and the Horror Companion into a system with my own minor tweaks that essentially allow for powers that last longer outside of combat, with the trade being they take time and focus to cast (since they're dramatic tasks). I might share my little homebrew here once I get home.

On top of that, I let trappings go farther than they would in the books a bit. A player could tweak the bodyguard spell into a non combat mount summon spell, or tweak obscure into a silence spell, maybe having it cost an extra PP if the GM would prefer.

Just sharing some ideas on powers I guess.
>>
>>55326977
50 Fathoms doesn't get enough love, I think. It's got a great plot point campaign and a really interesting setting.

Favorite licensed setting is Savage Rifts. Been a Rifts fan since 1991, and it's high time that the setting got a decent system to go along with it.
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>>55326977
>"Shotguns aren't THAT overpowered" edition


>TFW your're playing a World War 2 game and the point man on the squad carries a shotgun and has a higher Jap kill count than any other man in the squad
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>>55336417
Yeah, I love Savage Worlds, but shotguns are indeed kind of OP.
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>>55336417
Well why wouldn't he? If he has a d10 shooting, even japs in cover are going to be hit 50% of the time without issue. In the open, they have a 90% chance of being hit. And a 50% chance of being hit with a raise. A 5 toughness japanese soldier has a 74% chance of dying from a single shotgun blast. The m1 garand? Only 56%. Oh but that raise on teh shotgun blast makes it a 94% kill rate. And if he has Marksman, well... that fucker's never gonna miss.

But no, no, shotguns are balanced! Really, they are! And if i don't like it, I'll just houserule it because that makes everything better and means the game is good if you have to change the rules to make it good that means it was good in the first place war is peace freedom is tyranny ignorance is strength i love big brother i love big brother
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>>55336476
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>>55335529
>I wrote all this because I'm too braindead to think to remove a simple +2 bonus
>Literally comparing 3RB to the Holocaust
>Not just getting rid of 3RB too
I hope this is a failed, longwinded attempt at bait
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>>55337221
Of course it is, Anon.
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>>55336476
If it rustles your autism so badly use the fix from East Texas University instead of shitposting about how rectally wrecked you are over it. Fuck's sake.
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>>55337284
What fix?>>55337267
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>>55337303
The +2 only applies at medium range and beyond, as the pellets have had enough distance to scatter a little.

I already houseruled it anyway: a flat +1 at all ranges except for sawed-offs, they really need some love besides the ability to use them in melee combat.
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>>55335529
I said nothing about 3 round burst. Also PCs mopping the floor with enemies is not a bad thing.

>argument from realism

Stop, just stop. We need to argue about its merits as a game mechanic. The game functions just fine around it. As I said, if it inflames your autism that badly, give the bonus at further range increments, which is both plausible, and does a lot to take the legs out from under shotguns.
>>
I don't know the powers very well. Would it be acceptable to claim the bolt spell is a spectral gun that you can materialize into your hand to fire shots out of?
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>>55336476
>having to houserule a +2 away is comparable to totalitarianism

People like you are why gamers have a bad name.
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>>55338827
Totally.
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>>55337221
>I wrote all this because I'm too braindead to think to remove a simple +2 bonus
More like the devs were too braindead to remove it.
>Literally comparing 3RB to the Holocaust
Sure. I fail to see how that counters anything I said.
>Not just getting rid of 3RB too
That was literally what I was advocating for you dumbfuck.

>>55336578
Not an argument.
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>>55338825
>I said nothing about 3 round burst.
So? Does that mean I can't bring it up.
>Also PCs mopping the floor with enemies is not a bad thing.
It is when there is basically no reason to use anything but a shotgun at close range. That is ridiculous and has no bearing on reality, it's like the Katanas being good at piercing armor. Complete bullshit.
>Stop, just stop.
I can argue realism if I want you stupid fucking cunt. Realism is important. You say it's not? Okay then my cahracter can fucking fly, at will, no holds barred, and you don't get to say SHIT about it, because you said realism doesn't matter, you little fucking nigger. Now you are going to make a roll20 campaign where I can play a character who can fly at will, shit his pants and turn it into gold, and pogo stick up to the moon, all because realism doesn't matter. That is YOUR argument fuckface and you talk the talk now you're gonna walk the walk.

>>55337341
If so many people are houseruling it because it is broken, then PERHAPS THE DEVELOPERS SHOULD HAVE MADE IT A +1 INSTEAD.
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>>55338870
Awesome. Trappings are kind of cool.
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>>55338997
Let me start by saying I agree with the katana. Shit is inappropriate in anything that isn't a lupin the 3rd game.
but
>It is when there is basically no reason to use anything but a shotgun at close range.
Let's see. There's always the whole not being able to lug a shotgun around with you everywhere you go thing, the lack of AP, the lack of rof, the lack of ammo capacity, their weights are all pretty high, despite needing short range to function they cannot be used in melee meaning the sort of environment necessary to force your opponent into close range also allows fighters to close the gap under cover, and again largely due to the weight you're limiting your auxiliary weapon/armor options.

So either your issue is arising due to poorly planned bland combat arenas, or dumb opponents willing to wade into your shotgun. Or the players have actually set up a situation where their assets shine and should be rewarded as a result.
>>
Does anyone here use the encumbrance rules? When our group played DnD a lot we ignored them so once we started Savage Worlds we ignored them, too, though my players already seem to have a lot of stuff.
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>>55339323
I ask my players to track their combat kit. I could care less about everything else so long as it doesn't seem silly at a glance.
Without encumbrance you're more likely to run into less choices, because weight keeps certain options from being strictly better especially with armor.
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>>55339179
>So either your issue is arising due to poorly planned bland combat arenas, or dumb opponents willing to wade into your shotgun. Or the players have actually set up a situation where their assets shine and should be rewarded as a result.
This has nothing to do with that. This has to do with the fact that a shotgun is not as effective in close quarters as Savage Worlds seems to pretend it is. Go spout your MUH SHOTGUN BEST FOR CQB shit on >>/k/ and see how far you get.
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>>55339609
I'm talking purely from an encounter design perspective, shotguns are not op and have very easy and expected workarounds. If realism is your sole concern please play a system not designed to emulate pulp fiction.
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>>55339468
>>55339323

I use a "you can carry your Strength in Heavy items" ruling - Heavy items being things like a tent, a 'main' weapon such as a longsword, greataxe or hammer, large blackpowder weapons, ship parts or certain quantities of loot.

Though I make loot more a time concern than a weight concern in most circumstances, as most times the limiting factor is how much time the PCs are willing to invest in Narrative Time to load up the ship with stuff, rather than how much they can actually carry.
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>>55338997
>You say it's not? Okay then my cahracter can fucking fly, at will, no holds barred, and you don't get to say SHIT about it

Game mechanics don't allow it :^)
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>>55338997
>If so many people are houseruling it because it is broken, then PERHAPS THE DEVELOPERS SHOULD HAVE MADE IT A +1 INSTEAD.

Oh man, I know, why don't they just hop in their time machine and reprint those old books?
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>>55338997
>Okay then my cahracter can fucking fly, at will, no holds barred, and you don't get to say SHIT about it,
Ah so you're playing an avion?
>>
>there will never be a Savage Worlds thread without an autist freaking out about shit that doesn't matter
>>
>>55326977
>Favorite official setting?
Probably Weird War I.
>>
So I just read an optional rule proposed by Clint, where the GM has unlimited bennies to use as he pleases, but in return, every time he spends one he hands it over to the player being affected by the roll. Any opinions on this?
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>>55340335
Neat
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>>55340335
Could be cool. It'd piss off the resident sperglord though.
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>>55338997
You don't get to bitch about the game not being realistic then bitch about shotguns being really good at close range.
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Are shotguns really that big of a deal when you account for all the penalty modifiers to hit like cover, dim lighting, movement, etc.?
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>>55340335
At least at my table that wouldn't matter much. I generally don't use gm bennies. Though when I do it's usually to augment a wildcard baddie's own pool, which I don't think I'd want to do with this rule in effect. I feel it could turn such a combat into a slaugh.
>>55341179
See >>55339179, not at all. I'm much rather have a weapon that allows for both a similar close range punch while still allowing for long range options should the need arise. Like literally any rifle.
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>>55339830
Yeah. Because they try to be vaguely realistic. That doesn't mean super-simulationist shit, but it means the game makes some degree of physical sense. Stop creating false dichotomies.
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>>55339901
It does matter, though. Shotguns are unrealistically effective in close quarters and beyond. Hell, dealing pistol damage at medium range is a small trade for the +2 to hit. You do understand that is like having a +6 weapon available to you in D&D from level 1, right? You do understand that a +2 is not the same in Savage Worlds as in D&D, right? You do understand that just flatout using a shotgun is just as effective as spending a full six seconds to aim, right? You do understand that the guns in the game are broken, even contain literal errors (such as AK-47 dealing more damage than m1 garand), and you stupid twats, instead of accepting that your game has errors, continue to autistically defend them.
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>>55341801
No they aren't? Have you ever noticed how a wildcard with a d4 in driving is nearly identical in skill to an above average stuntman (d8 extra)? Actually have you noticed that non important people are called extras all of the time? Or how the book constant uses the word pulp to describe things?

Its a fucking pulp action movie system you hyperbolic dumb dumb. Guess how shotguns work in literally every movie let alone pulpy ones?
Exactly like they do in the gear section.
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>>55340912
>he thinks shotguns are actually CQB god-weapons
Holy fucking shit. Please post that on /k/ and link the thread here, I want to watch you getting roasted like a thanksgiving turkey.

>>55341179
Yes they are, you stupid fucking cunt. Why are you so fucking retarded? The +2 to hit applies IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. Anything a rifle tries to hit, a shotgun can hit better. Unless using 3 round burst. Which (A) only a small portion of the rifles have, and (2) three round burst is fucking stupid.

You do understand that a shotgun fires a cone, right? It's a very very narrow cone of shot. The spread is ONE FUCKING INCH PER YARD. So for one thing, it's not spreading very much, and for another, it starts out small and grows wider later. You do understand the shotgun pellets dont fucking change angles, right? They don't fly out a certain distance apart then fly in unison toward their target, right? You do understand that a shotgun giving +2 to hit something ten feet away makes ZERO FUCKING SENSE, right? Out at long range, when the shotgun deals LESS damage, that might make sense. Fuck, I can even see it from a pulp / simplicity perspective. Just a flat bonus to hit. I'd do that if it was a d20 system. But not a fucking +2 which is the difference between an inbred somali and a well-trained US Marine.
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>>55341997
>Anything a rifle tries to hit, a shotgun can hit better.
Except the entirety of shotgun mid range is contained within a rifle's short range. So the second you're 13 inches or more away the rifle is better in every way.
The bolt action rifle.
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>>55341937
>Guess how shotguns work in literally every movie let alone pulpy ones?
A random enemy picks one up and suddenly blows a main character's head off? Cause that how Savage Worlds has it set up! And also no, faggot, watch some actual movies and show me one where the shotguns are "lol always hit cause of buckshot" retardation.
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>>55342046
Except the shotgun still gives a +2 to hit. Also, what is moving?
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>>55341997
So if we go with your 1 inch spread per yard number. And 13 inches as the beginning of mid range, that means the shotgun's spread would be
13x2=26 inches.

So it seems the like the etu rules would fit you pretty well like everyone has been telling you for literally months.
I'd say a whole 2 feet of fucking spread is worth a +2 to cancel out the usual mid range penalty, and the damage drop off still seems appropriate because a decent chunk of those pellets probably aren't still hitting unless you're aiming at something worthy of the large size modifier.

>>55342343
You're fun you know that? No silly, that's the protagonist's job. The baddie is rocking a single d6+2 to hit for an average of 11 damage at close range. That's not terribly threatening to a wildcard.

>>55342361
A +2 to hit that literally only affects the shotgun's accuracy 12 or less inches away. Both the rifle and shotgun fire at +0 between 13 and 24 inches, except the rifle now has more damage and ap. The rifle also has a max range of 96, where as you shouldn't really consider firing that shotgun beyond 24 because a -2 to hit for a single d6 of damage is pointless.
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>>55342425
>So it seems the like the etu rules would fit you pretty well like everyone has been telling you for literally months.
Except the +2 applies at close range as well.
>I'd say a whole 2 feet of fucking spread is worth a +2 to cancel out the usual mid range penalty
So? It's still better than an SMG in that case, yet you'll notice that SWAT faggots don't use shotguns as their primary weapons, they use SMGs. Also obviously a single extra with a shotgun isn't threatening. But your gang of five enemies with AKs? Give them shotguns and they are way better. Also I'm still waiting for an example of one of these "pulp movies" where shotguns are auto-hit weapons because of le ebin buckshot spread.
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>>55342501
>Except the +2 applies at close range as well.
Yeah, that's why shotguns exist anon. To be as they have been portrayed in the media. The close gun.
The rifle is better in all other regards, and as a result of its versatility is the better gun for the carry weight and price.

>Give them shotguns and they are way better.
Anon if you're playing and you actively enter a 1v5 with a small group of armed men, in their prefered range bracket. Then yes. Yes they will be a threat. A threat that can be safely neutralized with 0 chance of harm if you engage at your long range.

Also I'm sure there's a tv trope's page if you want specific examples of film trivia.
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>>55340335
Fucking stupid. Why even bother rolling at all? Just make it a diceless benny game like Amber.
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>>55342587
>The close gun.
Yeah because they deal a lot of damage at close range. The +2 applies at all ranges.
>The rifle is better in all other regards, and as a result of its versatility is the better gun for the carry weight and price.
Only if it has three round burst.
>Anon if you're playing and you actively enter a 1v5 with a small group of armed men
Who said anything about 1v5? I'm talking a party of 3-5 guys versus a group of 5 men with shotguns. They are going to be buffed. Also most battles that take place on tabletop are going to be within 12/24/48 and oftentimes closer. I guarantee you if I have a shotgun and you have an AR-15 and we get into a close-quarters disagreement your AR-15 is going to win because of follow up shots unless you get in the first hit. Shotguns deal devastating damage to the body, look at the size of the shell you will see. For all I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But they sure as fuck do not give a +2 to hit, at least not against man-sized targets. If it was a bird or clay disk I'd say sure but there are no rules for hitting moving targets in Savage Worlds, another of its many flaws.

The real issue here isn't the shotguns, it's the developer's lack of understanding of how their system works and what a big deal a +2 to hit is. Cause a +1, while still a bit much, is fair and in line for pulp boomsticks, but a +2 is just fucking insane. I don't think you people fully comprehend the probabilities here. Nor do I think you've played many games with characters who use shotgun. They fucking dominate. Unless they are out on the open plains or maybe in a sparse forest they will absolutely devastate shit even with shit Shooting score.
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>>55339901
Yeah these threads are fucking awful. Maybe if we start an edition war people might ignore the shotgun guy?

Flat damage should be brought back, old chase rules were the best, something about the incapacitation rules changing, older settings are better.
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>>55343045
>Yeah because they deal a lot of damage at close range. The +2 applies at all ranges.

+2 at close means more likely to score a raise and thus turn it into a hollywood gore cannon, +2 a medium and long is to represent spread.

>Who said anything about 1v5? I'm talking a party of 3-5 guys versus a group of 5 men with shotguns.
Oh then the pcs will win even harder, because 11 damage is a single wound on the average pc. If they engage at a distance like sane people then the shotgunners stand less of a chance. At close range those shotguns are going to be relying on luck to case more than 1 wound at a time, and are at best going to be benny soaks. The baddies will be off the table on a single average roll of the kar's damage. Wildcards will hit more often than not if shooting is a thing they're supposed to be able to do. Combat lasts 2-3 rounds. Absolute player victory.

If we're talking about a semi automatic rifle, double tap again allows for the ball to be even more in their court.

I generally run games with descriptive combat which suffers no such expectation of an arena limited to a battle mat or table. You suggest an open field is a shotgun's weakness, I'd argue being indoors is its only strength, until someone with a knife closes the distance and makes your gun unusable, a feat entirely possible in a single round if the engagement distance is within close shotgun range.
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>>55343248
>+2 at close means more likely to score a raise and thus turn it into a hollywood gore cannon, +2 a medium and long is to represent spread.
Then they should have increased the damage. A shotgun doesn't hit more often at close quarters. Don't make the bulk argument either because the pistols don't get a bonus to hit close up either. A shotgun isn't any more maneuverable than a rifle.

>The baddies will be off the table on a single average roll of the kar's damage.
>implying they don't have armor of some kind
But sure.
>If we're talking about a semi automatic rifle, double tap again allows for the ball to be even more in their court.
Double tap is even more fucking retarded. By their logic for DT and 3RB why not fire 4 shots for +3 to hit and damage? Even GURPS knew better than to do that kind of shit.
>I generally run games with descriptive combat which suffers no such expectation of an arena limited to a battle mat or table.
Descriptive combat doesn't preclude a battle mat, nor does a battle mat preclude descriptive combat. Again, please note what the United States Army uses for room clearing. They do not use shotguns except to breach doors.
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>>55341892
We've already accepted it by proposing fixes you loser. We just don't think it's that big of a deal. What do you want from us? Are you just mad people are playing a game you don't like? You've been shitposting about this particular molehill for months. MONTHS. Do you have any idea how fucking pathetic that is? We don't care about realism except in the barest sense required to maintain suspension of disbelief, get that through your sad little skull.
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>>55343096
Flat damage sucked the cock, I agree with you on the chase rules because fuck cards, Tour of Darkness and Weird War II desperately need updating.
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>>55343666
>implying they don't have armor of some kind
If we assume armor players continue to win. Surely they too would have it if it is available enough that 5 mooks can all easily get it. Again the Kar has AP the shotgun does not. Further advantage to the players.
4 shots is the realm of full auto not a burst setting on a firing selector.
A battlemat was simply an example. If you constrain all combat to the boundaries of your table then people will start thinking within those constraints.

The only reason the players in this scenario are engaging the shotgun club on the mooks terms is because you literally need that for your point to have any bite. Keep trying to stack the odds even harder in your favor anon.
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Hey /svg/!

Sorry on the delays, I'm still not satisfied with what I've made so far. Getting rough drafts out for review is a dick when you're autistic.

What have you all been up to?
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>>55343925
Oh hai squidfiddler. I was wondering how the Splatoon thing was going
I've kept working on my prehistoric alien beasts setting. Ironically these threads have given me some good ideas for implementing shotguns.
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>>55344451
>squidfiddler
You take that back!

When you say prehistoric alien beasts, do you mean beast so different they're alien to your audience or do you mean dinosaurs vs xenomorphs and predators?
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>>55343045
>The real issue here isn't the shotguns, it's the developer's lack of understanding of how their system works
Go bother them with this then. There's literally nothing anyone here can do about that.
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>>55343786
Flat damage was more consistent. I think it might actually be you that sucked the cock. The cock of flat damage.
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>>55345176
He wants us to stop playing Savage Worlds.
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>>55345200
No. Not happening.
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>>55345176
>There's literally nothing anyone here can do about that.
If you live in America there is.
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>>55344537
>You take that back!
Make me bich ill fight you IRL
>When you say prehistoric alien beasts, do you mean beast so different they're alien to your audience or do you mean dinosaurs vs xenomorphs and predators?
Aliens based on prehistoric earth. Terror birds well on their way to sapience, entelodont-like mammaloids, the last of the not!dinosaurs, swamp-dwelling newt-crocs. The PCs are scientists stationed on a dangerous shithole research station on a planet a few lightyears from Earth, who need to use bioaugmentation just to survive going out beyond the electric fence, even with railguns and military grade combat armor
>>
I haven't been following Savage Worlds for a while, could someone give me a quick rundown on what settings/splat books are supported these days? I heard rifts was ported, what else?
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>>55343902
So you're saying you can just pick everyone off from afar in every situation? LMAO if you're getting outgunned from long range you either move to cover and defend, or if you're attacking you find a different strategy. Sorry if you want to stack the odds in YOUR favor, faggot. Sorry if 90% of the Savage Worlds games I've seen have involved CQB with guns. And it's all completely irrelevant because the simple fact remains that SHOTGUNS ARE NOT THAT FUCKING GOOD IN CQB.
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>>55346495
Most recent KSs I know of are The Goon, Fear Agent, another Deadlands Plot Point Campaign, Rifts, and Weird War One. And the new Talislanta, but that's third-party and five different systems, so it's not "pure" SW
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>>55343836
>An SMG capable of being one-handed is flat out better for room clearance because of autofire.
God, I hope you retards are in a real war someday. I can't wait to see your brains splattered on CNN when you try to apply these dumb-ass ""tactics"" in an actual situation.
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>>55346560
Within the context of the system we are talking about, he is 100% right. Fuck off.
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>>55346547
>SHOTGUNS ARE NOT THAT FUCKING GOOD IN CQB.
We know, anon. We just don't care.
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>>55346793
The context of the system is bullshit, though, because the system itself is bullshit. It's like drowning someone to stabilize them in D&D 3.5, it works within the system, but gawd almight is it fucking retarded.
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>>55346813
Then there is no good reason for them to be that good in Savage Worlds. They are an overpowered weapon. Their stats are unrealistic. The way that they work is stupid. Hell, the autofire rules are fucking retarded, too, but I'll get into that in the next thread.
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>>55346819
Then play something else that you'll enjoy.
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>>55346855
>in the next thread
Does that mean you're going to fuck off for the remaining 200 posts of this one?
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>>55346855
Go. Away.

All you do is make these threads worse.
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>>55346855
We. Don't. Care. We're not going to stop playing Savage Worlds.
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>>55346982
and your constant sperging isn't really all that great of a strategy to convince others not to start.
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>>55347029
>and your constant sperging is really a great strategy to convince others to start.

Double negatives, Anon. Though it could work as sarcasm in the way you intended.
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>>55347152
Be he isn't convincing people to avoid the game, how is that a double negative?
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>>55347183
It's a double negative because he used two negatives.
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>>55347198
but those negatives don't modify the same thing.
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>>55347212
It's (not) a great strategy to convince others to (not) start.
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>>55338997
>If so many people are houseruling it because it is broken, then PERHAPS THE DEVELOPERS SHOULD HAVE MADE IT A +1 INSTEAD.
Sure. So there's a minor, easily fixed flaw in the game. It's still a flaw, and it would be better if they changed the rules, but since it's easily fixed, it's not a big deal. But... "OH NOES! The bonus for one weapon is one point away from what it should be! Everything is ruined!!!1!"
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>>55343925
Where's the issue?
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>>55346478
>Make me bich ill fight you IRL
You're gonna get splatted.

>dinosaurs + augmentations
Oh! I remember this. Sounds really rad. So what are they stationed there for? To study the aliens for military purposes? Recovering some ancient alien artifact?

>>55349802
Converting the weapons, giving Savage World's damage system a Splatoon spin because they're inking each other not stabbing one another, and coming up with distinct stats for Octolings, Jellyfish, and so on.
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>>55350006
Octolings should be on par with inklings, the capability of other octarians should depend on their number of limbs. Like, Agility and Smarts should be low with just one limb and the more they have, the smarter and agile they get. Strength and Vigor should be as high as inklings in anycase. Spirit... uhm... regularly, octarians are very easily manipulated since they are basically all henchmen to their creators (which are basically giant, chutuliod octopuses if the splatoon art book is to be believed). Playable octolings should have spirit on par with any inkling.

Jellyfishes should be more or less physically weak, but as smart as inklings. They should also be somewhat durable, maybe even more than inklings... since stuff basically bounces off of them. (as evident by Splatoon 2. When you jump on a jellyfish, they jiggle abit, you bounce off/slip off and they don't seem phased at all).
They also can't use ink based weaponary by default, can't speak inkling and have limbs that extend for atleast twice their own body heigth. (They also eat with their ass... acording to the splatoon art book).
Ink based weaponary should have somewhat of a blunt effect on inklings/octarians. As evident by the games, it looks like it weights them down if they are in enemy ink. So being full of ink is basically like you get hit by rocks that sticks to your body.
Does these suggestions sound good?
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>>55350784
Oh also, Octolings are basically the pinacle of octarian evolution with 8 limbs. They build the upper echolon of the octarian society and are (probably) the only once that have attained sentience.
All octarians begin their lives as single limb though (which is also their body). As they grow and develop, they become the octarians we see in the game. Octarians probably grow at different rates and not all will become octolings, mind you.
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>>55346919
I do play other things that I enjoy. But if you're going to start an argument about shotguns being balanced or fair, then get BTFO in it by moving the goalposts, you're retarded. You are yet to explain to me how the mere fact of using a shotgun should give you a +2 bonus to hit an opponent at close range. Even at far range it should be a +1 at most. The damage drop-off is irrelevant. How the GM sets up encounters, is irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that, in a CQB situation (which comes up quite a lot if you are playing something that isn't military crap with 500m engagements) a shotgun is broken.
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>>55346970
>>55346982
>>55346919
Sorry you are too much of pussies to handle the truth. But Savage Worlds has a LOT of issues. Probably about as many as 3.5, and some of the same kind given the amount of trap-option edges (which could easily be fixed with major and minor edges but the developers are retrded) and caster supremacy.
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>>55345183
The swinginess of exploding dice-based damage is something I prefer. Makes you think tactically before wading into a fight for fear some jackass is going to roll boxcars and murderise you.
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>>55347183
>>55347029
>>55348186
Well, there are a myriad of other reasons not to play Savage Worlds, the shotguns are simply a particularly aggravating example. They showcase the developers' lack of understanding of their own mechanics, the way that they throw +2 bonuses around like candy in a system that uses d6s and d10s for rolls, and has a standard TN of 4. You do understand that a +2 means you only fail on a 1, right? You get a 2+, and you've succeeded if you have that +2 modifier. And sure you can have cover modifiers and darkness modifiers and dodge modifiers and all that other shit, but the fact remains that the shotgun is going to be better at hitting than the assault rifle. And the three round burst? Actually if anything that's more broken than the shotgun and makes even less sense. At least a shotgun is a spray of pellets, this is three fucking bullets. Three round burst does NOT increase accuracy that much. It sure as fuck does not turn a d4 shooting Somali into a d8 Shooting Marine. That's fucking retarded.

But sure we could talk about how half the edges are trap options, half the hindrances are roleplay-only and are barely even hindrances (such as heroic), how the Kevlar armor with inserts soaks a fucking .50 cal bullet and completely negates its armor piercing, or the retarded chase rules, or the retarded social combat rules, or the fact that a generic system has no crafting system or rules for creating items yet seems to think gambling skill should be included, has no balance in its skill list, the vehicle damage system is retarded and means that a tank hit by a shell can suddenly move toward the shell even if it's stopped moving, and a character can easily starve to death in 3 or 4 days because of the retarded way fatigue works. Also how single-monster encounters are absolutely worthless because even as wildcards they barely last 2 rounds. The game is only good for mook combat.
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>>55353761
What's it to you that we play Savage Worlds, though? You're clearly not going to convince us to stop any more than we convince you to stop playing your favorite game.
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>>55354063
Pastanon is just bored and lonely!
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>>55332344
The solution I personally would go for, I think, is refluffing Super Sorcery from the Super Powers Companion.
Shape Change only allows you to completely change into mundane animals.
What Super Sorcery does is, it let's you emulate any other Power, and even maintain it. Even maintain multiples.
So you could get 5 levels of Super Sorc for 15 Points total (Probably cheaper, due to the limitation to what powers animal parts could grant you).
That then (the 5) acts as a point pool that you can spend to emulate other abilities.
Flight for example can cost 2-15 points, depending on how fast you wanna go.
So you could spend the minimum of 2 points to aquire flight, fluffed as giant bat wings, and have three points left to manifest other powers.
The rest of those points you then can put into a armor, for example. One level of armor costs 2 points. But since Super Sorc also takes into account cost modifiers for powers, you could get one of the options that reduce the cost by one, which leaves you at three point cost, when taking level two armor.
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>>55354363
I just want to add that I hate when you have a huge list of spells and can use any single one you want at any given time. I appreciate that super sorcery at least gives you mechanical benefits to having your spells picked out beforehand to attempt to mitigate characters pouring through the book looking for what spell to cast next.
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>>55354063
>You're clearly not going to convince us to stop any more than we convince you to stop playing your favorite game.
That's because I choose games that are actually good with minimal flaws. Savage Worlds has more flaws than D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder combined.
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>>55355642
Oh, I get it. You really are just an asshole.
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>>55355734
No, you're just triggered because you realize your game is shit.
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>>55355642
Why are you spending so much time in a general of a game that you hate so much?
What do you hope to accomplish?
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>>55355890
Haha. Ok, Anon. I'm clearly the one throwing a temper tantrum every time the game is mentioned. You got me.
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>>55355890
>the anon casually enjoy a system he likes to play is the one triggered
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>>55357169
Squid, I think you had an anuerism there.
>>
Weird. My players are mostly rules-devouring mini-maxers. And we've been playing SW since before the full rules came out (I'm serious, we used some beta test material). And yet none of my players worship at the altar of the shotgun. So I asked them why the other night... and their response was that I use thing called "range" when I GM.
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>>55357361
Why lie, anon?
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>>55357408
Go to bed, Seanchai.
>>
So is that Samurai Bikers setting thing for Savage Worlds not happening?
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>>55357888
Go away.
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>>55355907
I mean, he clearly has nothing better to do. If this is how he acts he's certainly not in any games of his own that's for sure.
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>>55357204
Sorry, phone posting from work.

>>55357888
>So is that Samurai Bikers setting thing for Savage Worlds not happening?
What now?
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So I made so OP's for /svg/ if you guy's want to judge them.
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>>55358899
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>>55358899
>>55358916
Pretty good, Anon.
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>>55358916
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>>55358923
Thanks.

>>55358924
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>>55358934
don't hurt me
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>>55358947
>>
>>55358899
>>55358916
>>55358924
>>55358934
>>55358947
>>55358954
These are all great!
>>
So anyone here check out ultima forsan? I'm interested to see what it's added that could be repurposed for powder fantasy in general.
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>>55359409
I'm not familiar, could you tell me about it?
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>>55359464
The Renaissance, but with a fantasy zombie apocalypse happening. Da Vinci's forgotten inventions see practical use in combating the undead plague, it's a pretty neat alternate history horror/fantasy setting from what I've seen.
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>>55359736
Wow, that sounds pretty cool. I hadn't heard of it at all.
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>>55359736
>The Rennaissance, but with a fantasy
Okay, tell me more...
zombie apocalypse
Okay, stop telling me more.
>>
>>55357361
The problem is not the shotgun being a god weapon at long range. The problem is a shotgun being a god weapon at close range. A +2 to hit is overpowered no matter what. More simply put, it just doesn't make sense. If you read a little more into Savage Worlds you would realize the developers actually have no fucking clue what they are doing, for every good idea they have, they have a shit one as well.

>>55357935
>If this is how he acts he's certainly not in any games of his own that's for sure.
>implying people act the same in real life as they do on an anonymous games board
lol
>>
>>55355921
I'm not throwing a temper tantrum, though. Temper tantrum would be me spamming in all caps FUCK YOU YOUR GAME IS SHIT KILL YOURSELF BURN IN HELL. I'm not doing that. Instead I am showing how a shotgun's ridiculous bonus to hit (and the 3-round burst bonus to hit and damage) is broken and stupid.
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>>55360054
>anything mainstream is bad
fuck off.
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>>55358947
These are all nice work.
>>
So any of you guys use special playing cards or bennies in your game? I'm just sitting here with my standard deck of cards and poker chips and realizing I could possibly be using some cooler shit.
>>
>>55360876
I have a few sets of bicycle playing cards that I've intentionally aged and worn out. For bennies, I've got a wooden poker chip set I made myself. Now I just need to find some old off-white dice.
>>
>>55360557
>>55360569
You already admitted to trolling with intent to make these threads stop happening.
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>>55361280
Wooden poker chips? That sounds pretty cool.
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>>55361362
Just report every one of his posts and move on. I reckon he'll get bored of ban evasion sooner than we'll get bored of ignoring him.
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>>55361574
Is what he's doing even ban worthy, though?
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>>55350006
>So what are they stationed there for? To study the aliens for military purposes? Recovering some ancient alien artifact?
SCIENCE! At least, ostensibly. They're there to study the local wildlife and hopefully learn more about how life developed on Earth, but normal people with things to live for and no gambling debts don't cryogenically freeze themselves for 8-10 years just to go somewhere they'll probably never return from.
>>
>>55361588
Global rule 2.
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>>55361675
Yeah, probably.
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>>55361711
Fuck I meant 3.
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>>55361788
Oh, I thought you were joking. Yeah, that one makes sense.
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>>55361588
Right around the time he said it was a "war of attrition" meant to prevent these threads from happening it became such.
>>
Would adding a couple extra Jokers to my Action Deck affect the game too much?
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>>55362032
I once had a gm who did this, but he did it with the casting deck of our huckster. He'd add more reds/blacks based on what had and was happening.

It probably will make things a little more swingy considering how powerful the joker is, and you'll also be reshuffling a lot more.
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>>55362163
Wow, you actually just convinced me not to do it. I don't want to bog the game down with extra reshuffling.
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>>55353761
what are the most notorious trap edges? Friend got me into a savage world's campaign and I'm curious
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>>55361855
Ironically, all he's doing is keeping the thread bumped. It's not like he's stopped us from talking about other things
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>>55362262
Combat Reflexes is apparently pretty lackluster.

Two-Fisted is better than other combat options as well.
>>
>>55362530
Combat reflexes was prior to the new shaken errata a don't crit fail and you get out. It also gave someone with a d8 spirit a 50% chance of acting with an action.

Two-Fisted is certainly better than ambidextrous but I've always seen the latter as a means of augmenting the former rather than competing edges.

Also just because some options are not as good as others from a strictly numbers point of views doesn't automatically make them traps. They've got to actively be the wrong choice for that.
>>
>>55362879
Man I ain't arguing about it. Any game with concrete options is going to have some shitty ones, it's just how it goes.
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>>55361541
That's what they used to be made of. Wood or metal, usually tin.
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>>55360876
I bought a tinful of Fallout bottlecaps to use as bennies for a game I never ran, do they count?
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>>55366381
Speaking of fallout, whoever designed the savage fallout book did not understand how to translate concepts between mediums.
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>>55366425
Oh? Which one are you talking about?
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>>55366443
I'm only familiar with one, and it literally wholesale took fallout mechanics and translated them 1:1 into savage worlds. Including quick learner, as an edge where you literally level up quicker and pays its own cost by seasoned.
>>
>>55358364
I forgot the name (moto something?) of it but Pinnacle was supposed to be doing an official savage worlds version of some japanese post apocalypse samurai biker setting.

I was way more interested in that than Flash Gordon. Wow, just what Savage Worlds needs... another pulpy sci fi setting.
>>
>>55366599
Huh that sounds neat. Though if you want a little something early, I believe there is a japanese themed shogunate (ruled by some weeb) in hell on earth. Just combine that with the 1880 catalog ghost rock powered motorcycles or their hell on earth equivalent.
>>
>>55366599
Motobushido?
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>>55366599
>I forgot the name (moto something?) of it but Pinnacle was supposed to be doing an official savage worlds version of some japanese post apocalypse samurai biker setting.
I guess that sounds neat, but there's a lot that could have gone wrong
>>
>>55366425
>>55366484
How would you translate Fallout to SW? Simply running vanilla SW in the Fallout universe with the gun names changed would work well, but it feels a bit lazy
>>
>>55369795
I'd imagine adjusting all of the perks to edges, without breaking things. Also converting SPECIAL to SWs stats.
>>
>>55369795
There's a Savage Fallout out there that's pretty good. Has a few problems, but it's rather well made.
>>
By the by, here's some SW based games I've backed on Kickstarter. They should be approaching completion:

Powder Mage -- based on a fiction trilogy. Think Euro-Musket magic.

Herald: Lovecraft & Tesla -- meet and adventure with two nerd-favorite historical characters!

Ghost Ops: modern special ops skulduggery. This one will be issued in both its own rules and in Savage Worlds.
>>
>>55371143
>nerd-favorite
Fucking dropped.
>>
>>55371143
Yeah herald sounds cringy as fuck. Not because >>55371318's disliking popular things, but because those two people and their work have been so warped and fucked with over the years, and rarely in even close to a good way, largely thanks to cogfop.

Powder mage seems interesting, that's the series were people snort gunpowder right? I'll likely look into that one.

Ghost ops I feel is just going to be a modern gear list, hopefully one that gives up even more shotgun fodder. Oh god does our resident sperg make me want this to not have etu shotguns so fucking bad.
>>
>>55371143
Powder Mage sounds interesting to me.
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>>55371447
>Yeah herald sounds cringy as fuck. Not because >>55371318's disliking popular things, but because those two people and their work have been so warped and fucked with over the years, and rarely in even close to a good way, largely thanks to cogfop.
You're still judging it based on who you associate it with, which isn't much better. Lovecraftian horror is a proven concept, and I could actually see "Teslapunk" working well, a pulpy retrofuture setting based on the early 20th century where electricity works on 50's B movie radiation rules. The problem is, what do you gain by combining the two? They don't really have much in common besides being oldtimey things people like, so the only way to make them work together is to reduce them down to their most superficial elements.
>>
>>55373042
I get cha, but considering the torrent of bad material out there regarding tesla especially means I'm a bit more wary about some new thing toting his name around as a selling point.

Guilty until proven innocent by this point.
>>
>>55367038
Yes, that was it. Thanks.

Well fuck, guess Pinnacle isn't doing it anymore...

https://www.peginc.com/handing-over-the-keys-to-motobushido/

Fuck Flash Gordon.
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>>55373710
>Fuck Flash Gordon.
But I like Flash Gordon!

And Buck Rogers. And Barsoom. And Doc Savage. I just like pulpy science fiction and science fantasy in general.

I could take a look at whats been made so far for Motobushido, and we could come up with stuff we want to see. After I finish the Splatoon splat.
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>>55376430
What would we really need to make Motobushido work, outside of info on the world? Samurai bikers sounds like something you could do in vanilla easily enough
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>>55377545
I'd have to read what he's published desu.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/117797/Motobushido-The-Motorcycle-Samurai-RPG
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>>55378153
>Brave
Situational
>Killer Instinct
Great in games which make use of a lot of opposed rolls, like anything that involves ships/piloting.
>Extraction/Imp. Extraction
Required to make the best use out of attacking at any point of your movement.
>Danger Sense
Literally a life saver
>Common Bond
Fucking most broken edge in existence if you're using scifi, pretty helpful otherwise
>Quick
Your minimum initiative ignore 20/54 card draw results for initiative. That's an impressive minimum result.
>Tactician
Overcosted but solid otherwise
>Nerves of Steel / Imp. Nerves of Steel
Avoiding the death spiral is pretty great especially since this impacts the incap roll. Very handy to give to "boss" npcs from a gm perspective.
>Hard to Kill/ Harder to Kill
They do what they say on the in very well, harder to kill is a bit meh, because the base hard to kill makes you damn near immortal.
>Mentalist
You know for claiming a +2 is the be all end all, you sure included a lot of edges that give you frequent +2s on this list. Depends on power selection obviously, but you wouldn't take it if it didn't apply to yours.
>Assassin
Yeah this is meh
>literally ALL of the joker-related edges
Agreed
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>>55378666
Do not engage with the shitposting troll.
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So, shitposting idiot aside, what are some good alternatives for the 3 round burst? Because I do have to admit that it does seem slightly excessive.

I was thinking of incorporating a "short burst" that functions against a single target as though the weapon had an ROF of 2, and that 3RB would just make it so you spend 3 rounds rather than four with a short burst.

Not sure what to do with double tap, I personally think it's an unnecessary addition in most systems because there is nothing special to a double-tap; it's just taking quick follow up shots as the opportunity allows, but that's somewhat difficult to model well with games that divide combat into rounds of multiple seconds.
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>>55378879
You could always just leave it out
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>>55378666
>Situational
So, it's shit, and not worth a full edge.
>Required to make the best use out of attacking at any point of your movement.
Still crap. It's not spring attack.
>Fucking most broken edge in existence if you're using scifi, pretty helpful otherwise
How?
>Avoiding the death spiral is pretty great especially since this impacts the incap roll. Very handy to give to "boss" npcs from a gm perspective.
Or I could pick an edge that helps me not get wounded in the first place.
>You know for claiming a +2 is the be all end all, you sure included a lot of edges that give you frequent +2s on this list.
Yeah because it's a situational piece of shit.
Otherwise you are correct.
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>>55378879
Delete it. It's retarded. Let it give +2 to damage for more bullets hitting but the +2 to hit is just so fucking stupid it makes my brain hurt. Delete Double Tap, give 3-round-burst a +2 to damage, make shotguns give a +1 to hit which is still not ideal but far better than fucking +2 which guarantees a hit unless you roll a 1 (implying that every enemy you fight is going to be a soldier taking cover, and monsters don't coexist with shotguns ever).

>>55378743
I'm not shitposting you fucking cunt, none of you have yet refuted any of my points. You've just made "lol it's a game so it can be whatever it wants doesn't have to make sense lol fuck realism" bullshit responses. The only valid point you people have had is that shotgun's range penalty negates the +2 to hit at medium range and farther. That's the only compelling thing you've said, the rest has been apologism, rationalization, outright lies, or accusations of me being a troll when in fact I used to play this game all the time before realizing what a fantastic chunk of shit it is.
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>>55380347
>So, it's shit, and not worth a full edge.
Depends on the campaign.
>Still crap. It's not spring attack.
Incredibly not the case, especially if you can fly
>How?
Robot creation rules are borked, get a robot, give it luck/more luck, common bond, boom robot that can email you 2 bennies whenever. Buying a robot an edge is super cheap and ignores requirements other than rank/previous edges. So you make a robot whose sole purpose is the distribution of bennies, and take every downside to reduce the price. Much cheaper than the robot that breaches special relativity to ram planets to death.
>Or I could pick an edge that helps me not get wounded in the first place.
Like what the extra toughness ones? I don't think you understand how imortal not suffering penalties on the incap roll makes you. Its practically impossible to die outside of the gm actively saying no, it doesn't work, I don't care, you're dead anyway.
>Yeah because it's a situational piece of shit.
Situational doesn't mean trap option. It means situational. Like brave. Entirely useless in a game that doesn't involve horror themes. But in a game that does, that's easily a life or death edge. Savage worlds is a generic system, all edges can't be great all of the time.
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>>55380386
>I'm not shitposting you fucking cunt

You already called this a "war of attrition" and implied the intention is to prevent discussion.
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>>55380489
>Robot creation rules are borked, get a robot, give it luck/more luck, common bond, boom robot that can email you 2 bennies whenever. Buying a robot an edge is super cheap and ignores requirements other than rank/previous edges. So you make a robot whose sole purpose is the distribution of bennies, and take every downside to reduce the price. Much cheaper than the robot that breaches special relativity to ram planets to death.

So this is in the vein of things any sensible GM would prevent, right?
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>>55381582
I mean, unless you want a campaign where players can literally buy bennies
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>>55378879
>So, shitposting idiot aside, what are some good alternatives for the 3 round burst?
Play a different system. Savage Worlds is okay for unrealistic fantasy and the weird wild west, but questionable at best for realistic low fantasy or modern time periods.
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>>55381641
>this one rule is a bit lackluster
>I BETTER JUST THROW THIS GAME OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW!

Seriously, what is with you fucking people?
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>>55381836
Why are you assuming that there's only one rule that makes Savage Worlds mediocre to bad for either of those listed categories?
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>>55381845
Because you didn't both to substantiate yourself in the slightest. I don't see anything in SW that would make it particularly poor for any genre if you don't mind it being a bit unrealistic.
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I have a few house rules I always use.

Shotguns give no bonus to hit but ignore 2 points of penalties.
Double tap and 3rb only add damage.
Any character who does not take an arcane background has no rank restrictions on edges (except sidekick) or attribute increases.
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>>55382075
>Any character who does not take an arcane background has no rank restrictions on edges (except sidekick) or attribute increases.
Why this?
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>>55382075
are arcane backgrounds especially overpowered?
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>>55382123
>>55382126

Spells are not incredibly over powered but are powerful enough that even with the no rank restrictions rule at least half of my players play spellcasters and previous to that rule all of my players played spellcasters.

One edge and 2 skill points can get you access to spells like deflection, heal, and summon ally.

Conversely, being able to start with improved frenzy feels badass but multi attack is not game breaking in savage worlds.
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>>55382238
So, it's not so much a means to buff non-casters as you just not applying "no rank restrictions" to casters. Makes sense.
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>>55382245
Basically. High rank spells are a lot crazier than high rank combat edges.
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>>55382285
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I have only a glancing familiarity with the powers system, and my thoughts on it were "doesn't seem that bad" but my expectations were calibrated by years of D&D, so I don't know dick.
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>>55361855
>Right around the time he said it was a "war of attrition" meant to prevent these threads from happening it became such.
I never said that, you imbecile. Don't put words in my mouth. I can say what I want about savage worlds, doesn't mean I want the threads to stop happening or that I am trying to. Hell, they SHOULD keep happening because more people need to be educated about what savage worlds is really like, instead of mindless shilling from PeG drones.
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>>55380489
>depends on the campaign
Okay. How many fear rolls did you make in your last campaign, versus how many attack rolls that could have been improved by trademark weapon? Yeah I thought so. Brave is an objectively inferior edge.
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>>55381836
>one rule
About 50% of the rules in the game are shit, anon.
>>55381053
I never said that, lol.
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>>55382037
>. I don't see anything in SW that would make it particularly poor for any genre if you don't mind it being a bit unrealistic
>other anon is talking about realistic/ low powered fantasy

You savage worlds fucks are so blind to the truth. Your senpai is only good for high action pulp games, if you want anything gritty it breaks down like sugar cubes in water, the gritty damage optional rule doesnt do shit either, also if you want a game where characters don't end up the same after about a year of play, you'd use GURPS or gurps lite.
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>>55382126
The only system with stronger caster supremacy than Savage Worlds, is D&D 3.5.
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>>55384684
>gritty damage rule doesn't do shit
Tell that to the guy in my cyberpunk game who went blind in one eye after being retarded enough to balls-out charge the cyborg serial killer and sucking up some point-blank buckshot for his troubles.
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>>55381632
That'd be kinda fun for a game where the PCs are MMO PCs.
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>>55385147
>someone lost an eye in my campaign therefore the gritty damage works!
Anecdotal evidence. Discarded.
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>>55385500
Who is virt
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>>55385348
Not an argument
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>>55386070
>pretending to be a newfag.
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>>55381582
Oh yeah, scifi has some good ideas, but gms need to heavily monitor any of the creation rules. They're way too easy to exploit.

Hell even without exploiting them things can get pretty retarded. I made a drone that's only good at piloting. I then bought some of either the light or ultra light jets planes, which cost next to nothing. Strapped some aftermarket afterburners on them, and lo and behold I had atmospheric missiles that put the gear section to shame, all at a discount. The drone just rammed into things. It's range was beyond the scope of any anti air defense as well, so It just hung out a mile or so back, and when called upon spent 1 turn boosting up to speed, and the next we broke out vehicular crash rules for 200d6+ damage.
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>>55386563
Are the race creation rules balanced? Is there anything that should be banned or severely limited?
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>>55388154
They do the their job, but some races will naturally be better than others even if you try to zero out their stats.
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>>55384684
>he's a GURPS cultist

Dropped. GURPS is a game by pedants for pedants.
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So I have some players that have the enemy hindrance in my game and they say they share the same enemy, together. I introduced their enemy a few sessions ago, a lawman that wanted to send them to jail for crimes that they have in fact committed. As soon as he showed up, they murdered the shit out if him, though I spent every Benny I had trying to keep him alive so they'd have a reoccurring enemy. They still have the hindrance that they got free points for, so I made someone show up wanting vengeance for the first person's death, and they tortured and murdered him. At what point should I give up, essentially removing the hindrance?

Every time an enemy shows up, they brutally murder him, even willing to do so in front of witnesses. They keep escalating things so hard that I've simply made their enemy the government now, but things aren't going the way I planned, since I saw the sheriff as a reoccurring character like inspector zenigata or the like, always showing up to be a foil for them. Guess I'm mostly just venting here. It's very frustrating.
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>>55391110
Savage Worlds is a game by autistic wargamers, for autistic wargamers. It's no better.
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>>55391556
That's some really constructive conversation you got going there.
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>>55391556
>shows up to a Savage Worlds thread just to call everyone autistic
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>>55391556
But there's nothing especially autistic about. It contains neither the obsessive focus on minutiae nor tries to sustain a narrow image of realism.
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>>55391556
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>>55391238
Communicate with your players better.

Send them an overpowered enough antagonist that the chances of exploding dice and bennies and poor card draws on initiative beating them is little, have them permanently cripple or kill at least one of the player characters.

Play a system that doesn't require you to bend your main antagonists to the will of bennies, exploding dice, initiative cards, and shotguns/three round burst.
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>>55388154
They're pretty alright. Ultimately though I'd use them as a guideline. They're apparently 1:1 point wise with the super companion, and one of the biggest issue that (and any super's game really) is that if things need a little gm oversight because it's pretty hard to put a solid point value on these sorts of things. Especially since certain campaigns will make certain qualities shine more so than others.

Also because it's pretty easy using the super's rules to make an immortal god being that nearly automatically teleports people into the sun, and still be considered in the same power scale as the swiss army man, a man with all the powers of a giant man sized swiss army knife.
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>>55391238
I'm going to say you did the right thing by sending someone else. Now that said, you're letting them get away with these brutal murders. Eventually more than just a guy out for revenge is going to show up. Hell it sounds like they should have naturally obtained wanted major by now.

I'll have to agree with the other anon, its always best to discuss the enemy and the player's relationship with that enemy first. If nothing else ask if the enemy is out to kill them or just to be their gary oak. By defining that relationship and more importantly why the pcs haven't just offed the guy off screen in their backstories should go a good deal to prevent that in the future.

Now before I suggest having a heavily armed lawman posse show up lead by their new enemy who's out to make a name for himself by bringing down the murder hobos, was this supposed to be an over the top violent villains game?
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>>55392128
But my problem isn't system based. It's player based. They didn't win through crazy good die rolls or initiative. They were losing pretty badly, since I kept soaking wounds using my own bennies. They guy even called backup and shot out one of the player's eyes with his magic handgun (the bolt spell). But every time I gave the players a chance to get away without dying, they took that as a moment of weakness and tried to kill their enemy. Even with one of them bleeding out of his now empty eye socket. They only ultimately killed the villain because they started tard raging when his backup showed up and started throwing everything they could at his almost unconscious body as they were riding away in their wagon, despite having his posse shooting at them.

One of my players even stated, "So what, we can't fucking do anything, then?" When it was clear they would have to run away because they were overpowered and couldn't kill this sheriff that simply asked them to come with him to sort things out. Maybe I should just quit running games for them, they won't listen to me.

>>55392236
It's a fantasy/western setting where the players are snake oil salesmen going town to town and selling fake potions to the people before packing up and leaving. The lawman is out to arrest them for being crooks. He was completely non violent to them and just wanted to talk things out.
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>>55392378
Ho boy, that sounds 100% a player problem.
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>>55392521
Yeah. Problem is they're all family members of mine, and leaving the group with come with pretty harsh social consequences. Especially since I'm the GM.
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>>55392585
You're over exaggerating.
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>>55392647
Yeah, maybe you're right. Though I am worried about it being awkward with my family. They really love the game. But I'm not having fun with it anymore. It's difficult to run as well, since one of them always tries to murder everyone they meet. Especially quest givers.
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>>55392696
You could always ask one of them to run a game.
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>>55392735
I tried, they aren't really interested. They've all only been playing for about a year now and they don't think they're "ready." Plus they'd want to run D&D and I'm kind of burnt out on d20 for the time being.
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Terrible what they did to such a venerated system like rifts, worst possible outcome for a remake
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>>55392696
It will only be awkward if you let it be. Just let them down gently, or just slowly stop finding time to play with them if you want to be a non-confrontational pussy.

Though if you really want to keep playing with them, try to break the murder everything you see habit. Just let them, don't stat out an appropriate response either. I'm talking full on villagers and maybe some militia at best. All extras, barely a d6 in a combat skill amongst them. Have most of them run and not even try to fight back.

And watch how fucking bored they become having killed everything there was to do.
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>>55392826
That's not a bad idea. Two of my four players I can see actually have gotten bored with murderhoboing, and one of the two remaining is starting to turn I think. The sheriff was murdered by two of my four players, as one couldn't show and the other was running late. When she showed and found out, she was pretty mad. One of the murderhobo players did feel bad about it and when I later introduced an elderly couple being harassed by a chimera, he kept chopping firewood for them and doing their chores for them, I think to attone for having murdered the sheriff. In our old D&D game he wouldn't have cared. Though one of the players kept trying to murder the old folks. I think I just need to work on making sure he doesn't feel rewarded ever for murder.
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>>55392805
Stay bitter anon.
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>>55392940
Don't take the bait, anon.
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>>55392949
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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>>55392900
Just make sure if you do that, you're very clear when building the connection between action and consequence.

"Well Timmy maybe if you weren't known far and wide as a notorious serial killer, the inn keep wouldn't have snuck out the back, warned all of his friends and skipped town after serving you that drink." Sort of clear.
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>>55335092
Thats the worse part is the setting changes, also makes the cs retarded to not just air bomb the crap out of a little castle.
CLASSIC RIFTS is decidedly better.
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>>55393022
Why havent they annihilated Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo or any of their other enemies?

Frankly the big mistake they made is not scaling the CS back; they're a total wankpile now.
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>>55392128
>Play a system that doesn't require you to bend your main antagonists to the will of bennies, exploding dice, initiative cards, and shotguns/three round burst.
This. Bennies are a crutch for bad system balance. If you had a good system, you wouldn't need a special rule whose entire purpose is to ignore the rules to "fix" when the system fucks up (i.e. exploding dice, which are needed because of the retarded step dice the system uses).
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I am the laziest fucking GM. I literally offer players bennies to grab me beers or shuffle my playing cards for me.
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>>55395071
Then I guess the vast majority of games made today are broken, because bennies (in some form or another).are standard mechanics. You find me an RPG where things never go against GM plans and I'll eat my hat.
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>>55396774
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>>55397038
Does it even have a GM?
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>>55397228
No. Which means you can't go against the gm's plans. Because there are none.
Only rape
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>>55393418
This. Going by D-bees of North America and the different coalition forces books, 1 in 20 people in the former United States is a Coalition Grunt. That's a retardedly huge army.
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>>55335092
I really wish they'd made it more of a RIFTS with Savage Worlds mechanics rather than Savage Worlds with Rifts flavoring.

My favorite part of Savage Worlds was power armor, and in Savage Rifts they're completely overpowered against normal enemies and dead meat against giant robot type enemies.

They really should have kept a tighter spread damage/toughness values and added some sort of extra wound system or something for giant enemies.
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>>55397306
Oh yeah. Monopoly is a pretty cool RPG.
Having a game tonight, infact. Here's my character sheet. R8,pls don't h8:
Money: 1000$
Model: Car
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>>55397638
>car
>2017
gross
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>>55397638
>Not playing Scottish terrier
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>>55399200
>>55400301
>tfw top hat will never be good again
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>>55403004
>Not playing a Scotty dog wearing a top hat
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>>55331685
I ran necessary evil last year. The setting is pretty good but the plot point campaign sucks, I ended up rewriting all of it. The book is a great idea generator though. I also ran the super powers companion rules instead of necessary evil powers. It worked well and my players loved it
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Has anyone played the Nova Praxis port? Is it any good?
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>>55407135
Actually, more generally, what's the best transhuman Savage setting? Doesn't need to be too grounded, but I want something fun that works well
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>>55334522

I dunno, call it a flanking bonus instead?

Everyone remembers to not shut up about flanking bonuses in D&D




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