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Scotty Stole the Transwarp Doodads Again Edition

Previous Thread: >>55708646


A thread for discussing the Star Trek franchise and its various tabletop iterations.

Possible topics include Star Trek Adventures - the new rpg being produced by Modiphius - and WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing miniatures game, as well as the previous rpgs produced by FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher, the Starfleet Battles Universe, and Star Trek in general.


Game Resources

Star Trek Adventures, Modiphius’ 2d20 RPG
-Official Modiphius Page/Living Campaign rescources
>http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
Playtest Materials (via Biff Tannen)
>https://www.mediafire.com/folder/36m6c22co6y5m/Modiphius%20Star%20Trek%20Adventures
Reverse Engineered Character Creation.
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2ofDX0-7tgHojjk7sKcp7uVFSK3M52eVP45gKNJhgY/edit?usp=sharing


Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)
>http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p

Other (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)
>http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS

WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing Miniatures Game
-Official WizKids Page (Rules and Player Resources)
>http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/

GF9games Star Trek: Ascendancy Board Game
-Official Page
>http://startrek.gf9games.com/

Lore Resources

Memory Alpha - Canon wiki
>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Memory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works
>http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Fan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more
>http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF

Star Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected
>http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html

/stg/ Homebrew Content
>http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP
>>
>>55735478
Finally, someone else makes the new thread. Thanks, anon.
>>
Daily reminder Dukat did nothing wrong.
>>
>>55735524
No, he did one thing wrong: not killing all the Bajorans when he had the chance.
>>
>>55735542
Also getting drunk and letting Damar shoot Ziyal was a bad idea.
>>
The more I think about it the more I like that the Orville has to use a space-minivan instead of transporters.

Fuck that's gotta be so much better for creating tension without bullshit excuses as to why people can't just be beamed back. let alone avoiding all the headaches of 'why don't the just use the transporter to do X'.
>>
>>55735617
The only reason TOS used transporters at all was a budget issue.
>>
>>55735617
While it does make for more creative writing in universe it doesn't really make sense. They have matter replicators for food. It's a very small step from there to teleporters
>>
>>55735545
To be fair, Dukat wasn't drunk at that point, he was crazy (well, crazier than usual anyway).
>>
>>55735648
Are they true replicators or just really fast fabricators?
Because that'd matter when it comes to, well, raw matter. If they're just building from stock then they're not close to teleporters.
>>
>>55735733
No one knows but the more reasonable of us believe they stock tanks of various atomic matter. Especially since they need those for various scientific feats they pull off during the series, like particle dumps and such.
>>
>>55735733
In one of the early episodes we saw a room full of replicators where people were making clothes and gifts for themselves and others. I suspect they're fabricators, given how much energy it takes to replicate a teddy bear out of nothing.
>>
>>55735785
It takes it's mass in antimatter PLUS inefficiency losses, so yeah it's pretty fucking energy intensive.
>>
>>55735617
Transporters aren't all that bad.
Though a very nifty piece of technology, stopping them from working is as easy as closing a door or disrupting communications so you can't get a lock on their location.
>>
>>55735785
They don't necessarily have to be made out of nothing. The could be using a stock material of matter and recombining the atoms into something else.
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>>55735524

Fuck you.
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>>55736076
t. Bajoran
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>>55736261
*Angry gull noises ensue.
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>>55736314
This is really funnier then it should be.
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>>55736314
Hatoful Cardassian
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>>55736314
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>>55735617
Transporters not working through shields is a pretty satisfactory limitation most of the time. Though sometimes there are advanced/special transporters that can go through shields and no one ever thinks to just send a bomb with those.
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>>55736261
>>55736314
>>55736642

I made this just for you /stg/.
>>
To those who play Star Trek Adventures, does the Klingon Brak'lul ability apply to weapons/attacks with specifically the Non-Lethal Quality, or attacks that are just set to nonlethal damage like phasers on stun?
>>
So, I came here looking for Star Trek Adventures materials, trying to see if the game is something I can get my friends to play... the link up top to the Playtest Materials leads to a "folder not found" message.

Am I out of luck?
>>
>>55736981
My interpretation is that it's any attack that is set to non-lethal damage. Meaning that unless you declare your attack as lethal, the Klingon NPC in question gets the resistance.

>>55737078
Your best bet is grabbing the free quickstart package from DriveThruRPG
>>
>>55737078
Drop your discord or email and I'll sort you out.
>>
>>55735522
Wow, 3 threads in a row, No one's life is harder than yours.
>>
>>55735524
>lost
>>
>>55736843
But there's all sorts of times that you'll want to put characters in a place and relieve them of ship-based options that don't involve shields and stuff. Then you have to start adding in complications that may or may not be consistent.

And then there's just the stuff like why are they not using transporters constantly for the myriad other things that happened with them.
>>
>>55737636
I've always explained it away as mass limitations; it's not that the ship can't beam up more, but the more and more you beam up the less and less likely you are to get a solid signal lock, so for really large loads they need shuttles or something.
>>
>>55737078
Check the PDF thread.
>>
>>55734151
>with that base being 5 days away works out somewhere like 1000 light-years for a rough estimate

Maybe. About 10 light years per hour is said to be the Orville's maximum speed; it probably doesn't cruise at that speed very often if it can avoid it, for the same reason that the Enterprise doesn't constantly cruise around at Warp 9.
>>
PHASED TACHYON PULSE CONVERSION-FUCKWAVE EMITTERS
>>
>>55735648
You're forgetting the fact that even in Star Trek the transporter technically kills you. Also that replicators don't flawlessly copy materials, just get it close enough.
>>
I've said it before but one big thing I'd want to change up if I were to re-do Star Trek from the start for an alternative universe reboot or whatever, transporters would be a function of space-warping tech so they just make here and there much much closer, rather than disassemble/reassemble.

Because fuck all the implications of shit like transporter duplicates and regeneration and all that guff.
>>
>>55739211
>Because fuck all the implications

There are no implications. Star Trek has adamantly taken the stance that the way the transporter works it moves you from one place to the next. You're the same person, you don't die. Any perception you have of it being different is due to the fact that you're some schmuck watching TV using 21st century knowledge, and thus have no idea how 23rd+ century technology works.

A Roman would be just as terrified of an airplane, or a camera.
>>
>>55739211
One of the Barclay episodes shows that you're still cognizant during transport. So it seems to support the notion that you're still you and any transporter based consciousness fuckery is in the vast minority of cases.
>>
>>55739289
Except what he's talking about, like transporter duplicates and regeneration, has actually happened in hard canon. So yes, you can effectively use the transporter to clone someone, or save a pattern of their younger self and restore them to it with no loss of memory so nobody dies of old age. That has a shit-ton of implications for what's possible with transporter tech if you extrapolate from what's shown on screen.
>>
>>55739362
But there is no reason they should have happened. How the transporter works implies nothing since it's all imaginary.
>>
>>55735869
That's what he's saying.
>>
>>55739289
And yet somehow with the right application of fairy dust it can create full duplicates of people. That good/evil split of Kirk. The alternative Riker. It can also merge people like with Tuvix. It can be used to completely regenerate a person like when Pulaski got old, fast. Somehow the stream it can be broken out of like with the super-soldier.

That's the implications I'm on about.
>>
>>55739447
Don't forget it also deactivates weapons, has a built in bacterial filter and get you can get stuck in the data stream for months (or 75 years) at a time and show up as creepy snake monsters to other people transporting.
>>
>>55739383
>>55739362
>>55739447
>>55739493
One-in-a-billion chances which they aren't going to try to reproduce on anything living until tech makes it reliable in a century or so. Why it always happens to the Enterprise, that's the narrative.
Also Romulans would understand a camera but be aghast that anyone trusts airplanes.
When in doubt, it's unique, when asked why, it's quantum.
>>
>>55739447
>It can be used to completely regenerate a person like when Pulaski got old
This is particularly troublesome, because there wasn't anything strange fucking with the transporter. They just decided to do it, after someone suggested it. And they talk about it like no one ever thought to use a transporter that way before. Then never mention it again, even though there's no apparent reason they couldn't do the same thing to treat any disease or injury.
>>
>>55739594
They kinda did the same thing in reverse in Rascals. Even if you assume Pulaski was due to disease and the transporter biofilters filtered the disease and thus returned her to normal somehow, in Rascals they just reversed the process by using a previous copy of their transporter patterns, with no loss in memory. You could do the same thing repeatedly to keep someone from growing old indefinitely.
>>
>>55739594
Here's the secret to Trek: if the episode isn't good enough to really stick with people, it's not _really_ canon.
>>
>>55739667
That episode does also blatantly contradict DS9's claim that genetic enhancement is strictly banned in the Federation.
>>
>>55739693
Pulaski was a Q. None of that shit actually worked.
>>
>>55739693
I haven't seen the TNG ep you're talking about, but are you sure it's enhancement and not correcting genetic disease? Pretty sure that's allowed.
>>
>>55739807
They made super-people.

Telepathic, Telekinetic, Terribly dressed super people.
>>
>>55739693
There's banning regular people from doing it, and there's limited scale government projects where we take a minute to remind ourselves why we banned it.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zThAELMw5a0
i guess Damar likes to drink in real life too
>>
>>55738930
>even in Star Trek the transporter technically kills you
How is Philosophy 090 anon?
But seriously, souls (or soul-analogs) are a thing in Trek, and they're transported too, apparently separately from the more physical parts.
>>
Which Riker was the real one then?
>>
>>55740210
Neither of them.
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>>55740210
The second they started experiencing the world differently they became two different people.
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>>55738930
>You're forgetting the fact that even in Star Trek the transporter technically kills you.
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>>55740368
>Implying people aren't dying every time they fall asleep
anon pls
>>
So a couple of threads ago there was an argument over what happened to the military vessels of the Founding members of the Federation seeing as how we mostly see Starfleet vessels int he show. Now I know this is Beta canon but at the end of the Romulan War duology, it's given an explanation. T'Pau struggled the whole war with whether or not to join the fight and break with pacifist teachings of Surak. She eventually does at the every end but worries that this will cause long term damage to Vulcan culture in the end. To hammer home her commitment to peace she has the Vulcan Defense Force broken down and turned into materials for Earth Outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone.
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>>55741123
What about the Andorians?
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>>55741145
It's not stated in the book. So I should have said a partial explanation
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>>55740431
His pic states exactly that, silly.
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>>55741123
My assumption was that those ships were just gradually phased out. When the Federation was new, Starfleet would have been a hodgepodge of the founding member's fleets. Then the next generation of new ships would be a fusion of tech from all four.
>>
So in STA, each species has two talents they can pick from. What might those be for a Caitian? I already figured out their attributes should be +1 to Control, Daring, and Fitness.
>>
>>55741440
This is also my thinking.

Reasoning being that the federation founder's own military fleets just became increasingly obsolete in the face of the advances they made as a whole. Whilst we know for certain that people like Vulcans got their own ships as well as serving in Star Fleet in general (actual canon from TOS and DS9 not beta-canon like the 'blue fleet' of the Andorians), we also know those were Star Fleet designs.

So by TOS at least it's fairly safe to assume that whilst there may have been a bunch of Vulcan, Andorian or Tellarite specific designs still hanging about (they'll have still all had their ship-building industries, the Andorian one at least is specifically confirmed in canon via bridge plaques iirc), almost anything important will be a Star Fleet vessel.
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>>55739666
>You could do the same thing repeatedly to keep someone from growing old indefinitely.
I have read horrible fan fiction where people did just that.
>>
>>55741123
>>55741145
>>55741440
>>55741607
Just started the next book in the Enterprise Series Rise of the Federation. It has some words to say about the happenings of the various fleets.
"Although the various space agencies of the UFP's five founding members still existed and oversaw their own ships and specialties within the combined fleet they jointly administered, they'd agreed they should adopt a common uniform with elements reflecting all it's member races."
So again Beta Canon and nothing definitive but interesting nonetheless. It then goes on to describe the new uniform if anyone is interested.
>>
>>55741999
>UFP's five founding members
What's the 5th? Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellerites, and. . . ?
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>>55742034
At the end of the last book the 5 included the Draylaxians
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>>55742034
There are a few sources that claim the Alpha Centaurians were the fifth founding member. No alpha canon though, alpha is only the four I believe.
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>>55742112
Alpha Centauri were definitely a founding member but the line says "5 founding races" and the Alphas were human after all.
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>>55742142
Nevermind I looked again it doesn't say that in the book at all
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>>55742067
>Draylaxians
The only canon info about this species is that their women have three boobs.
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>>55742034
Saurian. Gene said it was Saurian.
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>>55742279
That's pretty much the only thing mentioned about them in the Beta canon books too.
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>>55742309
This
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>>55742309
Huh, was that in an interview or something? Memory Alpha isn't willing to say for sure that they're a Federation member, and Memory Beta says they joined in the 23rd century.
>>
>>55735617
>that panel

Old computers used to be aesthetic as fuck
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>>55743083
That has about as much to do with old computers as Brainiac.
>>
Would there be any interest in playing (or watching) an STA game on Friday evenings aboard a Prometheus class? I'm looking to replace a failing D&D game with a completely different system that has players actually invested in roleplaying together instead of playing "how much dice can I roll?"
>>
>boot up netflix
>star trek discovery

what the fuck! theres a new series? is it good?
>>
>>55743370
Yes, depends on how well you can divorce the series from your Trekspectations.
>>
>>55743370
No.
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>>55743312
I'd be kind of interested in playing. Is this on Roll20 or something? I've got about 1400 hours of Roll20 under my belt with various game systems. It's all been text chat thought.
>>
>>55743454
Yeah it'd be on roll20 and discord voice.
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>>55742955
That's weird. I can't find it either and it used to be on memory alpha.
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>>55743454
So 2pm?
>>
>>55743552
>>55743579
2pm what? I'm EST
I'm not too crazy about the voice chat aspect of it.
I've been playing with a group of friends on roll20 since 2012. We've done 3e, 3.5e 5e D&D. Pahtfinder, Call of Cuthulu, Mutants and Masterminds, StarWars RPG, Feng Shui 2.0
Currently playing an All Flesh Must Be Eaten campaign with them every Wednesday.
>>
>>55741999
>It then goes on to describe the new uniform if anyone is interested.
I am.
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>>55743370
Watch Orville instead
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>>55743606
Someone has apparently thrown together a mockup using the description in the book. It's pretty dead on.
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>>55743621
Whoops>>55743606
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>>55743628
"Mayweather's black under-shirt sported a Vulcan-style Mandarin collar; over it was a V-necked tunic worn above a separate pair of black trousers and boots. Archer's own command-division tunic was an avocado green not unlike the command color of the Andorian Guard, while Mayweather's operation-division tunic was reddish-brown per Tellarite military convention. The lieutenant's rank insignia- a single gold stripe, as opposed to five alternating wide and narrow stripes for Archer- adorned each of his cuffs and shoulder straps. The shoulders were set off by a shallow chevron of gold fringed navy-blue piping extending from shoulder joints to mid-sternum, reflecting Vulcan designs from the twenty-first century. Below the piping, next to the vertical zipper of the left-hand tunic pocket, was the gold arrowhead insignia of the United Earth Space Probe Agency, the government department that administered Earth's Starfleet. To balance it, the mission patch , a circular blue field of stars behind a horizontal gold chevron, rather than a specific ship's design. "
>>
>watch this discovery
>several movies worth of conflic in 2 episodes

What the FUCK am I watching
>>
>>55743876
A pilot? Something that's not like other things (and so is bad I guess)?
>>
>episode 3
>it turned into Aliens

I don't even know what to say
>>
>>55740105
>>55740368

What I mean is, it might be a legitimate concern in the Orville. I can see conservatives wanting human transportation banned, and I can see that resolution passing with only minor grumbling from the scientific community.
>>
>>55741781
I'd expect nothing else from the fandom that birthed Mary Sue.
>>
>>55744452

Don't forget that it's also responsible for slash, or at the very least, popularizing it.
>>
>>55742279
>mfw
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>>55742279
Is data having a heart attack?
>>
>>55738930

What? no? There is an entire episode based on the premise that a guy is conscious through the entire process.
>>
>>55745302
Q made him into a real boy and he immediately started laughing because it's endlessly amusing to him that Humans are so frail and fleeting.
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>>55742067
Denobulans my good man, denobulans.
>>
>>55742112
>No alpha canon though

It was intended to be, though. It comes from a newspaper clipping from Picard's family album from Star Trek Generations. The clipping wasn't seen on-screen itself, but I'd call it close enough to canon that only someone deliberately trying to be contrarian would contest it.

Full text here:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/It%27s_Federation_Day!

Relevant part here:
> SAN FRANCISCO, Earth (SNN) – Declaring it a landmark day in the history of each of their worlds, five envoys today breathed life into the fledgling United Federation of Planets with the signing of the new organization's Constitution amid much pomp and circumstance.
> "We are truly entering a brave new world of peace, exploration and security with the establishment of this Federation," declared Earth ambassador Thomas Vanderbilt, whose remarks were echoed by representatives from Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri.
>>
>>>55712820
>>>55715013
>>>55716847
>>>55716952
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPVW4Tl9DbQ
>>
>>55746781
How did they get away with slipping Event Horizon scenes into Voyager?
>>
>>55746895
CBS or Paramount might somehow have access to the rights, the same way that they were able to put in scenes from Call to Glory, Wings, The Hunt fro Red October, The Jacket, and The Sum of All Fears into the opening credits of ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly". Plus that tank is from something else too; I want to say one of the Robocops?
>>
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>>55744452
>>55744461
Star Trek fandom gave rise to the whole concept of fan fiction as we use the term today. There were Star Trek fanzines publishing fanfic stories long before internet was available to the public.
>>
>>55744452 >>55746941
In the defense of Mary Sue herself, don't forget that she was a *deliberate parody* of the type of character than tended to show up in Star Trek fanfics. Plus the fanfic she's in is short enough that I can fit the entire thing into the rest of this post:

>"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her. "Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

>Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

>But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

>However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.
>>
>>55744286
The latest episode of Orville implies that they would be perfectly happy to use teleportation tech if they had it, but haven't invented it yet.
>>
>>55746992
One of the greatest works of modern literature.
>>
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>>55735524
What about when he shaked up with Kai Winn? Surely we can all agree that this is horrifying and wrong.
>>
>>55736870
Where does the original boobies line come from?
>>
>>55747255
Futurama, Captain Zap Brannigan.
>>
>>55746992
The irony being that the term Mary Sue comes from a character who was not, herself, a Mary Sue as the author of the story defined the term (which included a self-insert factor), unless said author had a particularly scathing self-image.
>>
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How would you handle Orions in STA? Should males and females get different attribute bonuses? Would the pheromones be a mandatory talent for the females, like Betazoid telepathy/empathy?
>>
>>55747332
Back before people started applying the term to any character is exceptional or successful in any way.
>>
>>55744175
New episode tomorrow!
>>
>>55747615
The point is where we get the term Mary Sue was a fanfiction parody of all the terribly written fanfction where the author puts in an absolutely ridiculous and unrealistic character that is also a self insert. Mary Sue herself was a joke, not actually a Mary Sue.

Michael in STD has half of the character traits of Mary Sue. She's not even as well written as actual Mary Sue's, she's borderline a fucking joke at their expense.
>>
>>55747887
>Michael in STD has half of the character traits of Mary Sue.
That is exactly what I mean about the term being overused now. Mary Sue use to refer to a particular sort of bad writing you really only see from amateur writers. Where there's no meaningful conflict because the whole point is just to showcase how wonderful the main character is.
>>
>>55747887
Mary Sues are not well-written, that's the whole point of the term: to define characters who are blatant self-inserts, not compelling characters.
>>
>>55748024
Missing the point. I'm saying they're not even as clean as a garbage dump.
>>
>>55747362
>How would you handle Orions in STA? Should males and females get different attribute bonuses? Would the pheromones be a mandatory talent for the females, like Betazoid telepathy/empathy?
>+1 Daring, +1 Fitness, +1 Presence
They're supposed to be a more "savage" race, but still a charismatic one.
>Pheromones: When you attempt a task using Presence on a male, re-roll one d20.
No idea what their other talent would be. You'd have to dig deep into Beta canon for inspiration there.
>>
>>55745376
No Denobula still isn't a federation member in the Rise of the Federation books.
>>
>>55748888
>No idea what their other talent would be. You'd have to dig deep into Beta canon for inspiration there.
Probably something related to being criminals. Sexiness and organized crime are their two defining characteristics on the shows.
>>
>>55749013
Re-rolling Security tests when it comes to investigating crime or criminals? I dunno.
>>
>>55749073
Or they could have the kind of 'skills' that you don't learn at Starfleet Academy.
>>
>>55749111
Mechanically not very useful since the only Disciplines in the game rules are ones you learn at Starfleet Academy.
It's always coming back to the basic assumption that PC's are members of Starfleet.
>>
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Maybe Star Fleet Battles has something useful or salvageable on Orions? They've often got bits and pieces of serviceable fluff in there.

I went to go find a hopefully worksafe picture of an Orion to post with this. I wish I hadn't. Can't unsee.
>>
>>55749206
I'd bet real money that an Orion pirates and other unaffiliated undesirables supplement is in the works.
>>
>>55749206
The homebrew supplement suggests the following

>ASSESS ODDS
>You know when and where to apply your efforts for maximum payoff, and know how to best use your skills. When you attempt at a Task using Insight or Presence, if there isn't an applicable Focus, each die that rolls 2 scores two successes.
>>
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>>55749316
...this is the result of me Googling "Star Trek Orion" on the image search; these are the first images to pop up. Every single one of these images is work-safe.
>>
>>55749804
Reminder that not everyone gets the same search results. Or uses google.
>>
>>55749798
I'd suggest
>THE GREEN PUSSY
>Once you fuck it nothing else comes close.
>>
>>55750459
Too similar to pheromones IMO
>>
>>55749717
We already know what the first several supplements are going to be because of the PDF bundle. My guess is that new playable races will appear in the appropriate quadrant books.

In expected release order:
>Command Division Supplement
>Beta Quadrant Sourcebook
>Operations Division Supplement
>Alpha Quadrant Sourcebook
>Sciences Division Supplement
>Gamma Quadrant Sourcebook
>Delta Quadrant Sourcebook
>>
>>55750597
So I'm guessing they'd be in Alpha Quadrant, since the 22nd century Enterprise encountered them early on and because they didn't get eaten up by the Klingons and Romulans.
Also, sickness, Command is first and my PC is a Command Division guy.
>>
>>55750597
Why would they do Beta BEFORE Alpha?
>>
>>55750597
Neat, did not know that we knew what was coming up.

The quadrant sourcebooks should be the most interesting by the look of it.

>>55750678
Klingons and Romulans.
>>
>>55750678
Klingons, obviously.
Besides which, most of the major Alpha Quadrant races have already been introduced in the core rulebook.
>>
>>55750678
Everything interesting happens in the Beta Quad. Klingons and Romulans and all the important Fed Races
>>
So, if you could put any other sci-fi species or race or whatever you want to call them in Star Trek from any other franchise, who would you pick /srg/?
>>
>>55750732
Luxans
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>>55750732
Probably Nietzcheans from Andromeda.
They'd be a logical extension of the Federation and humanity's fear of tinkering too heavily with their genetics and sort of represent some of the bleaker and less positive aspects that the human race has cast off or denied.
Rather then try to improve themselves as a species psychologically and reevaluate their worldview, they tried to use genetic engineering to "cheat" their way into societal advancement and just ended up making the bad parts worse.
>>
>>55750825
I never saw Andromeda, heard it sucked.
What was their deal?
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>>55750834
"The Nietzscheans are a subspecies of genetically engineered humans who religiously follow the works of Friedrich Nietzsche, Social Darwinism, and Dawkinsian genetic competitiveness."
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>>55750834
It DID pretty much suck.
And their deal was that they were an entire race of Khan Noonien Singhs, a bunch of superhuman genetically engineered genius warrior guys.
Their society wasn't very functional beyond a tribal viewpoint (Nietzcheans lived in "Prides" based on genetic strains more or less), because when every single member of your species is extremely intelligent and super-human and you all have differences of opinion anyway and your cultural view is "survival of the fittest" then you're gonna spend a lot of time killing rivals.
>>
>>55750732
Unironically Mass Effect races, which is probably understandable considering Mass Effect was originally Star Trek Except Bioware.
>>
>>55750862, >>55750889
I seem to remember watching no some it it, and if I recall correctly the Nitzchean part of the main cast was basically the crew's Worf and Garak combined; huge and tough, but instead of being stoic he talked like a Cardassian and rather then being untrustworthy-seeming but eventually being proven a good guy, he actually ends up fucking over the entire cast to become one of the main villains which is something he'd been saying he'd do for awhile at that point.
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>>55750919
ME: Andromeda, graphics issues and deliberately sabotaged release aside, is even more Trek-like with it's emphasis on new beginnings and hopeful exploration and being positive and trying to be better then your tragic past. Oh
One of the issues I had with trying to incorporate the ME species is that they really are heavily integrated into the ME universe; it's hard to figure where the Krogan or Asari would be WITHOUT the Citadel government.

Also, I feel like the Asari would somehow be even more insufferable.
>>
>>55747015
Their problem wouldn't be with teleportation itself but the philosophical implications of such. Presumably Charlize Theron's tech is proven to preserve the same self, or they don't care in 400 years, but the Orville crew might hold different opinions.
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>>55750995
Also, Andromeda has Tasha Yar in it.
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>>55751018
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>>55751018
>>55751032
what the shit
the only difference is the slightly newer "shaved sides" haircut, Crosby basically has the late 1980's version of the same cut
They even have the same jawline.
>>
>>55750701
>>55750699
>>55750694
I thought the only relevant alpha canon info on the beta quadrant is that Romulans hold territory there and that it's not difficult to reach from Federation space,
>>
>>55750732
They come bearing drinks.
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>>55750995
You could add 'citadel space' somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant (it seems like the least explored part of the Galaxy in Star Trek, oddly enough) and have all of the species there as they were before the First Contact War.
>>
>>55750732
Just let CBS use them for free, Niven. You don't need the money you fucking oil heir.
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>>55751060
There's not usually a lot of "hard" canon in Star Trek most days honestly.
Most of the more immutable stuff seems to be blanket statements about the nature of the Federation, with everything else being up in the air.
>>
>>55751060
Then you thought wrong.
>>
>>55751068
Citadel Space is suddenly a lot less impressive when the Federation looks a lot of Prothean shit and goes "meh, we could do that."
>>
>>55751096
They'd be more like, we can do that, and more efficient too.
Though Mass Effect fields might have some fun applications combined with inertial damping and replicator tech.
>>
>>55751113
Honestly, the only thing that ME seems to have up on ST technologically are Omnitools, which basically are extremely tiny replicators in function in that they use stores of non-differentiated organic or inorganic matter to make stuff on the fly.
REALLY tiny replicators apparently, since they aren't represented by any physical object that you see, just holograms built into your suit.
>>
>>55751159
Yeah, if you want the ME fans to fly into an autistic rage over the green ending.
>>
>>55751150
I seem to recall the borg not being fond of physical bullets, ME-based railguns, especially very large, Inertially damped, versions could probably core a cube in a single volley, and that's not even considering stuff like the Thannix Cannon.

And in terms of drive tech, yes Warp Drive is superior in most cases (especially shorter distances), but for long distance travel ME drives are quite a bit better.
Crossing the entire galaxy in a few hours is something I can't see a Federation ship doing.

Crossing the gulf between galaxies is another matter as well, modified ME drives can keep up 4000 C almost indefinitely apparently (600 years at any rate), last I checked most Federation starships need refueling of dilithium at least every couple of months, years maybe on a dedicated long-range configuration.

In most other fields, the Federation is light-years ahead, obviously.
Kinetic barriers are no match for adaptive phased barriers.
Directed energy weapons rather than kinetic (no matter how advanced).
Replicators, though as you said, Omnitools come close, just not on the same scale.
>>
>>55751273
I mean, that was a Borg being shot by a physical bullet that was actually generated by the holodeck, so I honestly have no idea what that counts as.
>>
>>55751336
If it gives you any insight, STA is of the opinion that the Borg can't adapt to physical combat, given how their shield system works. I generally agree with this idea and the shows/films seem to bear it out (the bullets in the holodeck, Worf fucking one up with a mek'leth, generally all the times they grapple with one and aren't instantly fried by forcefields).
>>
>>55751400
Honestly, I think if you KEPT using physical attacks the Borg would adapt.
The number of relatively primitive species they've eaten up suggests that at SOME point they MUST have run into someone who just tried hitting them before.
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>>55751467
Would the Borg ever find themselves in a situation where they were taking physical attacks for long enough to need to adapt?
>>
>>55751467
Presumably they produce armored drones rather than just modifying their shields.
>>
>>55751540
Any time they assimilate a species that hasn't developed directed energy weapons?
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>>55751543
The armored Tactical Cubes seem to agree with your argument, however, how many of the "primitive" species had relativistic railguns?
3% light-speed is a LOT of kinetic energy.
>>
>>55751558
But they don't bother assimilating species whose technology level is too low.
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>>55750995
>deliberately sabotaged release aside

What are you talking about?
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>>55750732
I would like the Goa'uld from Stargate. Their thing about basically being evil Trill would be quite interesting
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>>55752050
Technically evil trill exist already. Those mind parasites that were in the first season of TNG were later written to be Trill relatives who were cast out or something.
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>>55752072
What? Citation definitely needed on that one, never heard that.
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>>55752072
Oh yeah they were fucking cool. I wish they showed up again. But from what I understand they were replaced by the Borg.
>>
>>55752072
That was in the novelverse, games had them as bioengineered Totally Not Starship Troopers Ripoffs.
>>
>>55752085
>>55752098
>>55752118
Yeah it's Beta canon from the Novels. Specifically I believe it was the Dax novels.
>>
>>55752128
>>55752118
>>55752098
>>55752085
The parasites also returned in Pocket Books' Deep Space Nine relaunch series novels, first in The Lives of Dax, in which Audrid Dax and Christopher Pike discover that the parasites are closely related to the Trill. The last book in the Mission: Gamma series, Lesser Evil, then picks this up, leading into the novel Unity in which it is revealed that the Trill symbionts and the parasitic beings have been fighting a long secret war, with several species' worth of hosts and governments as their weapons against each other. The parasites' latest gambit has been the continued fervor for Bajor to join the Federation; for unknown reasons this would represent a great victory to their secret plan.
This story arc is completed in the novella "Trill: Unjoined" by Andy Mangels and Michael A. Martin, in which the parasites are revealed to actually be genetically modified Trill symbionts, created on the remote Trill colony of Kurl. A deadly plague had been killing symbionts, and the experiments were intended to develop a cure. However, the experiment failed, and the symbionts so affected became violent and xenophobic – the parasites – and swore revenge on Trill society for this disaster.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Conspiracy_(episode)
>>
>>55752072

In STO (more beta canon!) they're genetically engineered servants of the Iconians.
>>
>>55752148
Whenever I think STO's story is completely irredeemably trash, I just need to read a few novels and that feeling goes away.
>>
>>55751931
Andromeda wasn't made by Bioware Edmonton (which is what's left of the original game company after most of it's people left), but Bioware Montreal, a company that had all of ZERO games worth of experience under it's belt (they created the multiplayer for ME3; not the physics, not the gameplay, not the classes, JUST the matching system).
That was the start.
Then they changed people in charge of and on the development team repeatedly; it's six or seven years of development time was reportedly closer to two year, maybe a year and a half, because they kept starting from scratch over and over due to team heads changing.
Finally near the end of the devcycle they began to focus on those cool-looking cinemas you saw mostly in the trailers instead of the gameplay, and when it came out they HEAVILY embargoed reviews of it that weren't positive by default, basically ensuring all word of mouth was good and people preordered the fuck out of it based on commercials and "reviewes" that were basically just advertisements.

They got one of their single biggest launch day sales boosts of all time for the company, at which point word of mouth finally talked about how the game actually WAS, namely heavily flawed and laced with issues, and then basically told their teams to stop making patches and not bother with DLC even though there was an obvious hook for one at the end of the game. Mass Effect: Andromeda was probably never intended to be an awesome and complete game once EA decided to write off the dev team as unable to finish it, but instead a large short-term profits boost in the last fiscal quarter of the year (which notably it was released just before it ended) that they sold almost entirely on misleading advertisements since they know the game itself wasn't up to stuff.
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>>55752182
Any time a game is made in Montreal, guaranteed it's a cheap cash grab to take advantage of government arts spending and lower wages due to exchange rate.
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>>55752098
They were going to BE the Borg, actually.
That one Federation admiral controlled by them even says "they're having trouble assimilating all the new species into the Federation" and they were basically taking it over from the inside using the Federation as their tool of subversion.

Thing is, the Borg being insect-like was too expensive for the special effects department and makeup guys, so they ended up quietly dropping the plot line and never talking about it again and replacing them with the cybernetic Borg because they could handle that with costumes and special effects better.
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>>55752198
Seems like it, doesn't it?
>>
How would you feel about a star trek series that takes place 30-40 years after voyager's ending that focuses on the exploration of the Gamma and Delta quadrants, as well as tying up some of the loose ends with the Man from the future, from Enterprise
>>
>>55752260
>revisiting the TCW

pls no
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>>55752288
I actually liked the temporal cold war
im sorry
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>>55752260
Ok, two thoughts:

1. Working later than Voyager/DS9 ending is totally fine. You'd need to decide how to handle the Hobus explosion and all that.

2. Ok, fuck the Temporal Cold War. That shit needs to be fucking dead on arrival.
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>>55752335
What about a series about an outpost and prototype ship created to explore Fluidic Space?
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>>55752260
Even 30-40 years seems like it'd be pushing it for those quadrants. Explored space is very much a minority of space in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, plus even with the tech Voyager's bringing home you have every major faction recovering from the Dominion War, Shinzon and Hobus (or whatever other calamity you want to use to explain prime Romulus going boom). 30-40 years gives you time to figure out the Cardassian and Romulan political situations, make sure the Klingons aren't going to start shit, and then have Starfleet start stretching its legs again exploring the unknown. Remember the launching of the Ent-D was after 71 years after the Khitomer Accords establishing peace with the Klingons, and 53 years after the Tomed Incident causing the Romulans to withdraw inwards. It was only after those that the Federation felt comfortable enough to start launching massive deep-space missions that were supposed to last years at a time.

Ask yourself why you want to use the Gamma and Delta Quadrants. If your argument is "just because" or "it's different" then you can get just as much mileage by exploring the unknown in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
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>>55752380
There really isn't anything there to explore. 8472 is relentlessly xenophobic and fluidic space doesn't seem to have much in it. I don't know that this would make a good series. Exploring the Delta and Gamma Quadrants further or even reaching outside the galaxy to the Magellans or something would be legit.
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>>55750732
Zebesan Space Pirates from Metroid because their logic is insane.
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>>55752398
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>>55752397
>Doesn't have much in it
It's teeming with life. Biological life no longer needs the medium of a planet to evolve on. You'd find naturally space faring life forms much more frequently than you would in Normal Space. It's a Xenobiologist's wet dream.
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>>55752394
I'll poke in to add that the Alpha Quadrant beyond Cardassian space is probably the least understood part of the Galaxy (from a Federation perspective at least). AFAIK there's no indication as to what's between the Cardassians and the Dominion all the way in the Gamma Quadrant.
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>>55752420
Ok, I'll give you that, it's one good plotline. Give me another 20 so I can make one season of the show. This is the issue: you can only do so much in fludiic space due to its very nature. Real space has the same benefits (you can find space-borne giant lifeforms just fine in normal space) but none of the limitations of "space is alive" and has other strengths to boot.

I really think that fluidic space makes a good episode, but not a show. Maybe a cool two-parter where the hero ship gets stuck in fluidic space for a little while and has to escape or something, that'd be neat.

>>55752436
This guy has a great idea. What the fuck is out there? Do the Cardies even know? I don't think so, or if they do, they never talk about it anywhere ever.
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>>55752473
>if they do, they never talk about it anywhere ever
Well if they told the Feds they had 600 other Bajors, they'd get in trouble.
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>>55752398
I'm half-tempted to introduce Space Pirates into an STA game in a first contact type scenario. Maybe using wormhole shenanigans to explain the universe cross-over.
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>>55752503
This is a great idea. I need to go read up on Space Pirates now. Any good sources for reading up on those guys?
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>>55752542
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate
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>>55752503
Just make first contact with a species that's a stand-in for Space Pirates instead of doing actual universal cross-overs.
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>>55752220
Borg being cyborgs gone wrong is a much better idea anyway imo.
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>>55752288
The execution was lacking but I liked the idea.
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>>55752394
>Ask yourself why you want to use the Gamma and Delta Quadrants
Why I suggested the Delta and Gamma is because it has a higher chance of encountering Species with new technologies that are undiscovered by Alpha/Beta. I don't expect the Federation to drop everything and focus all their resources on Gamma/Delta, but I'd imagine they'd send some deep space starships to get into it.
and I don't expect the Delta and Gamma to be really explored in depth by the time it starts, but I'd imagine that some major interstellar states in the Delta and Gamma quadrants would have had some interaction with the Federation and other alpha quadrant powers because of the initial explorations in DS9 and VOY
Part of the reason I don't really like JJabrams' films and Discovery too much is its mostly using what is already established, or changing it.

And i'm pretty sure I can't convince anyone to like the TCW, but it just annoys me that the Future Man was never fully explained in ENT and I'd like to see future Archer

I also have a feeling that you guys would just tell me that its a dumb idea
Sorry for posting
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>>55752420
8472 say (forgot whether in Scorpion or the spy station ep) that they're the only life in fluidic space.
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>>55752658
Dude it's fine that you posted, it's just that the TCW was terrible. If you like it, that's your call man, but I'm not gonna personally. I do like the exploration of the Gamma/Delta Quadrants though.
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>>55752420
In order to keep the universe from imploding into a singularity gravity would need to be repulsive rather than attractive, making planets impossible. All life would be space borne.
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>>55752634
Yeah, it's honestly creepier somehow.
Plus the mechanical indifference of the Borg fits better as cyborgs.
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>>55752568
>using shit they don't understand to fuel supertech that always goes wrong
They're basically chitinous humans.
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>>55752647
Time travel is such a headache to write and for people to keep track of, it's best just avoided unless you go full kid's cartoon who-needs-consistency style.
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>>55752658
I'd prefer a show exploring the alpha and beta quadrants beyond the borders of known space dealing with known races doing the same. The Cardies, Klinks, Roms, and Ferengi all figure out that the Federation has so much power/profits because we explore the hell outta everything, so they send large exploration ships of their own.
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>>55752714
Tying up the Future Guy loose end could still make for a cool one-off, they don't even need to explicitly reference the TCW. Just have an episode where for some reason they have to travel to the future and capture him, and as they rendezvous with a future DTI ship at the end an agent mentions looking for the son of a bitch for years.
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>>55752783
Just please, for the love of god, don't let it actually be Archer.

I think it's a Cardassian, personally.
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>>55752915
>>55752783
STO has a few episodes dealing with him.
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>>55752783
I thought it was supposed to be some Romulan, and that was covered in one of the books?

Honestly though he's just not that interesting, just another ooooh conspiracies man in the shadows figure.the character loses all its very little interest the moment that it stops being some mysterious figure, like unmasking the villain in a scooby doo episode only to find out it was just some dude with a block of cheese and a comb.
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>>55752783
The DTI novels tie up that end in one book and make it more interesting than pretty much anything any TV show could do, by turning it into an anti-climax. Who the Future Guy is doesn't matter, it's what he's done to the timestream.

>>55752978
Romulan/Suliban mix I think.
>>
What's your favorite courtroom episode?

I mean besides Measure of a Man
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>>55753017
Measure of a-

Oh, wait. Nevermind. I really liked that one with the Q who wanted to commit suicide in Voyager. That was a pretty good episode honestly.
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>>55752954
Like I give a fuck about STO.

I have a lifetime sub
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>>55753017
Measure of a Man has some great writing but I'm fond of the Trial at the start of Encounter at Farpoint
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>>55753017
The DS9 one with Worf and the Klingon lawyer.
They did some interesting stuff with that.
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>>55753017
Its a toss up between "Drumhead" and "Rules of Engagement". I'd probably end up proffering the former, just for the more subdued tone of the whole thing.
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>>55753058
Well shit, the trial of humanity during Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things is fucking fantastic and one of the reasons the show was so damn good.
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>>55753057
I'm so sorry anon... I only ever log on when new story content is added. The grind in that game is just beyond ridiculous. And it's all because of the arbitrary limit on dilithium refinement.
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>>55753066
>Worf finally got to fire that spread of photon torpedoes Picard always belayed
>the ship was "full" of civilian refugees

Can Worf ever get a break?
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>>55753228
It wasn't actually full of them. The passenger registry was faked. It was full of names of already deceased civies.
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>>55753228
While >>55753255 is technically correct in all respects about that ship, I understand and appreciate your sentiment and can agree that Worf doesn't really ever get a break. Each time he falls in love with someone, they fucking die on him in bullshit ways. When he finally gets to really have a great battle (First Contact), he doesn't get to die in glorious battle. He is betrayed by the High Council, then gets his honor back by being rad as fuck, then loses it again to Gowron being a bitch, then loses his only family permanently. Worf, like O'Brian, is eternal suffering.
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>>55743370
>is it good?

It has the potential to be.

I've never liked Roddenbery's thing about "humans have evolved past all the things that make us human." I'd rather have a whoe bunch of flawed characters who know they ARE flawed, but trying to achieve the ideals that Gene set out anyway, knowing that they'll never actually achieve them.

Discovery's themse are trending along that path, so it's interesting me; certainly more so than TNG S1 was. I I try hard not to judge a show until - at minimum - the middle of the 2nd season, because it genuinely does often take time to get shit together, so while I'm generally unimpressed with some of the writing, it's certainly not "Night in Sickbay" or "Threshold" level terrible. It's just different than most of the Trek we've had before. Different isn't automatically bad.

With that said, I'm enjoying the shit out of Orville, too. The first couple of eps were meh. but they've definitely got a strong writing staff and it's a *fun* show to watch, whereas I find STD interesting, but not necessarily "fun" (I didn't find Breaking Bad "fun" either, but it was sure interesting and I enjoyed watching it).
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>>55753575
>With that said, I'm enjoying the shit out of Orville, too.

Fuck off. You can't like both.
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>>55753713
Fuck you, his opinion is legitimate. Don't be an exclusionary ass, there's no point to it.

>>55753575
I disagree with you about the nature of Discovery. There's nothing wrong with flawed characters striving to be better, but that's not what Discovery is giving us yet. So far, it is giving us nothing beyond "we're all assholes and doing asshole shit" which is why a lot of us don't like the show. Maybe it'll get better, but it failed its most important task: make me want to watch the show more. Say what you like about the other Trek shows, their pilots all asked good questions and made the show look interesting and appealing.
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>>55753575
>Discovery's themse are trending along that path
The main character is a mutineer and the from what I've heard the new captain is a psycho, both of them unrepentant.
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>>55751061
Imagine Londo in Quark's.
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>>55753771
>So far, it is giving us nothing beyond "we're all assholes and doing asshole shit" which is why a lot of us don't like the show.

I agree. My point is simply that if you derive joy from watching a show where assholes realize they're being assholes and try to be better than thay, even if they're in circumstances that might justify being assholes...well, that means you'd like STD more because you won't get to watch ANY of that if the characters aren't assholes in the first place.

IMO it's OK to start the characters in a crappy place with the long-term goal of uplifting them. 4 episodes isn't even close to long enough to set that up and generate a payoff. I look at it and see what these characters can become 3 seasons from now. I'm not demanding and requiring instant gratification; I don't think purely episodic sci-fi where the characters are basically archetypes and undergrow only minimal growth as the series continues is going to be a common thing anymore.

STD isn't the same as previous Star Trek. Neither was DS9, and that's my favorite ST series by a long shot. It's not great right now, but it's certainly *watchable* (even if less "fun" than Orville), and it has the potential to grow into something, the same way DS9 did; unlikeable characters in S1 were awesome in S5.

Also, I'd argue really hard about there being any particularly good or appealing things about the first seasons of TNG, VOY, and ENT. The pilot itself for TNG was alright, but then the first ~half-dozen episodes are just complete shit. I'm enjoying STD so far MUCH more than I enjoyed watching the same number of starting TNG eps. Again, it's not GOOD. But there's potential for growth - a lot more potential than there was 4 episodes into TNG or VOY.
>>
>>55753852

Looks like >>55753575 wants to see characters change over time. Hard to change a character to be a traditional Starfleet goody-goody if they start off that way. Lot easier if you start them off as shitheels and make them change.

>Am I really the only person who things that Mike was justified in calling for a preemptive attack, given that she actually has data on her side? She was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.
>>
>>55753918
Yeah, he did convince me to hold off on judging STD. I just don't think it'll get a second season, and all we'll be left with is an oddball Trek full of assholes that killed the franchise.
> She was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
FTFY
>>
>>55752684
But we know it's not or Voyager would have detonated due to the grav plating everywhere on all its decks the instant it crossed over into fluidic space.
>>
>>55753890
>I agree.
See, I don't want to watch a show about assholes being assholes. There's enough of that in real life and Star Trek has never really been about assholes being assholes, it's been more about people struggling to do the right thing despite the difficulties. That's something STD hasn't done yet, despite plenty of opportunities. We'll see where the first season goes, but so far, I'm not hopeful.

>I look at it and see what these characters can become 3 seasons from now.
"It gets better later" is a bullshit excuse for something being bad to begin with. People should make their work good to begin with and then make it even better later, and before you say that that's too hard, I point you at DS9, which was just good to begin with and remained that way for 7 seasons.

>STD isn't the same as previous Star Trek. Neither was DS9, and that's my favorite ST series by a long shot.
DS9 was my favorite too, but it was also recognizably Star Trek in its aspirations and themes. STD just...isn't, at least so far. It doesn't share any themes with Star Trek, it doesn't look like it, it doesn't act like it, nothing is right so far. Again, "it gets better later" is a shit excuse for people not making something good to begin with. Maybe STD pulls an ENT and gets good 4 years in, but can you really blame people for not sticking it out?

>Also, I'd argue really hard about there being any particularly good or appealing things about the first seasons of TNG, VOY, and ENT.
My point was merely about the pilots themselves, all of which did better than STD did.
>>
>>55753771
>>55753575

I think the word here that both of you are dancing around is Compelling.

Vedek/Kai Winn is a character I hate. But they're compelling to watch in their villainy. Or for a closer example to Burnham, someone controversial like Captain Jellico. He is a compelling character. I would not be adverse to see him do more things on occasion.

Some people might find Burnham or the events of Discovery compelling even though Burnham is undeniably an asshole as are many other people within the show.

Me personally; nah. Distinctly un-compelled. Repelled even.
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>>55753959
The franchise was already dead for 7 years, I don't think STD is going to do anything.
>>
>>55753713
>implying
It's like having TNG and DS9 on at the same time. TWO treks a week.
>>
>>55753959
>FTFY

She was trying to save her captain, her ship, and actually prevent a war with the Klinks by giving them a preemptive bloody nose (which she has proof the Klinks respect if you can pull it off). I'd call those the right reasons.

It's just that by committing mutiny, no matter what, she's going to have done the wrong thing, even if what she was trying to do would have saved billions by avoiding the ensuing war.
>>
>>55753964
I should have written "their gravity analogue."

>>55753992
>Maybe STD pulls an ENT and gets good 3 years in
FTFY, though for season three to have really worked as a self-contained thing I think Archer would have had to die at the end.

>>55754011
She was attacking the Klinks because she hates them for killing her parents. Right thing, wrong reason.
>>
>>55753992
>it's been more about people struggling to do the right thing despite the difficulties.

I think that Michael's mutiny WAS the right thing, though. She's looking at the larger picture and trying the only way to prevent a war which has ever been proven to stop the Klingons. It just means she has to to what StarFleet feels is the wrong thing; there's a point here about what is legal and what is right being different.

>"It gets better later" is a bullshit excuse for something being bad to begin with.

I disagree that STD is objectively bad. You just don't like it. That's different. Certainly the writing is no worse than any other ST series 4 eps into the series.

>DS9 was my favorite too, but it was also recognizably Star Trek in its aspirations and themes.

I feel that STD is recognizable as well. It's just more in the background. Michelle Yeoh and the new engineer who just wants to Science! rather than fight a war are your traditional StarFleet types. The StarFleet we've seen before *is* still there, but it's not the focus right now. Again, I feel that the happy fun time StarFleet that Gene liked is completely unrelatable and makes for bad TV since it ignores the flaws that make us humans. These people are hugely flawed, and I want them to see the error of their ways and aspire to be something more.

And for reference, that's not "it gets better later". That a "story arc".

>>55753996

I can understand where you're coming from, and I agree. It's not especially compelling. But again, neither were any other Treks 4 eps in. IMO the first compelling TNG ep was Measure of a Man, and that was ~30 episodes in. I don't think it's unreasonable to give STD at least ~10 eps to get there.
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>>55754038
>She was attacking the Klinks because she hates them for killing her parents. Right thing, wrong reason.

She did explicitly get the information that the only thing that's proven to stop the Klinks is hitting them first, and hard. Yes, I think that some dead parent hate was in there too, but completely disregarding this evidence in her decision making process is disengenuous.

Final verdict: pic related.

Regardless, the mutiny is ABSOLUTELY defensible. Starfleet won't see it that way, obviously, but the fact she committed mutiny doesn't "automatically" make her a bad guy the way some people are claiming.
>>
>>55754127
>defending the indefensible

Found the person who isn't really a Star Trek fan.
>>
>>55754173
Mutiny is never defensible unless it's preventing the captain from conducting severe violations of Starfleet and/or Federation regulations, like the Pegasus and the illegal cloaking device.
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>>55754173
>mutiny is ABSOLUTELY defensible
You've never served, have you.

Also, I managed to freeze my video at a rather good place.
>>
>>55754127
>I think that Michael's mutiny WAS the right thing, though.
Starfleet does not provoke wars. This is a core tenant of the organization ever since its inception. Why is a mutiny (something that has never happened before or since that we know of) and the provocation of an aggressive and potentially genocidal war a good thing? How is this a Star Trek thing, when it literally has never been a part of their mandate and in fact goes against everything Starfleet believes in? I'm confused.

>I disagree that STD is objectively bad.
Objectively bad? No. Objectively worse written and acted and plotted than the other shows in its stable? Yes. I'd also argue that the pilot of STD was worse written than any of the pilots of the other Star Treks (except maybe TOS, which didn't have a true pilot as we know them now, since the Cage never aired on television to the best of my knowledge). This is probably up for debate, but I feel it to be true.

>I feel that STD is recognizable as well.
Show me where Starfleet's principles are on display then. The main characters aren't showing it. The one who did was fucking killed on camera and used as a plot point to drive the main plot, which is about engaging and beginning an aggressive war against a sovereign power that was not currently threatening them. If the principles of Starfleet are still important to the show, it is pretty deep in the weeds somewhere since I cannot see it beyond ancillary details that are glossed over and mostly ignored.

>And for reference, that's not "it gets better later". That a "story arc".
There's a difference. I'd know, my degree is literally in this field. Enterprise was objectively bad for two to three seasons. That it became ok in season 4 does not excuse it having been bad before hand.

Please note, by the way, that I honestly wanted STD to be good. I want nothing more than to have a fantastic new Star Trek to bring in new blood.
>>
>>55754249

That's what he said. Starfleet won't see it that way, and you've accurately given Starfleet's viewpoint.

However, as an omniscient viewer, yes, anon is correct that the mutiney is defensible. A choice between breaking Starfleet's principles and by inaction let a war begin that will kill billions is no choice at all, and the Starfleet officer who knowingly lets that happen, even at the expence of their own honor/career, would be a more inhuman monster than anything Kirk ever faced.
>>
>>55754283
>Why is a mutiny (something that has never happened before or since that we know of) and the provocation of an aggressive and potentially genocidal war a good thing?
Shooting first was the only thing that could have prevented the war.
>>
>>55754287
What one character thinks =/= the truth
>>
>>55754301
Two characters. Remember Sarek?
>>
>>55754298
Starfleet has been very clear about them not starting wars. That the Klingons would shoot first is fine. Citation: all of canon Trek outside of STD.
>>
>>55754308
Sarek is the character I'm referring to, what Michael does is based on what he thinks.
>>
>>55754301
>What one character thinks =/= the truth

That character is told point-blank by a party who is incapable of lying that the only way to keep Klinks from attacking is to hit them first.

A Vulcan straight-up telling you something that is historical verifiable is as close to gospel truth as is possible to get.

She was legally wrong. That does not mean she was MORALLY wrong. Trying to save the victims of an inevitable battle/war at the cost of her own honor is exactly what being a Starfleet officer is *supposed* to be about.
>>
>>55754283
>Objectively worse written and acted and plotted than the other shows in its stable? Yes.
Hold on now, VOY exists. It hews more Trek but by these objective measures it is worse.
>>
>>55754349
>A Vulcan straight-up telling you something that is historical verifiable is as close to gospel truth as is possible to get.
I fucking hate this retarded headcanon because it's been proven wrong many times.
>>
>>55754283
>Show me where Starfleet's principles are on display then.

There was a Tribble on the dudes desk. What more do you want?
>>
>>55754361

True, but you aren't addressing the more important point by far.

>Trying to save the victims of an inevitable battle/war at the cost of her own honor is exactly what being a Starfleet officer is *supposed* to be about.

That is definitely what Mikey was trying to do. She did everything she could to convince her captain, mutinied when that failed, and when called on it she was very clear about trying to save people. Not to take revenge on the Klinks, but to save her captain, friend, and crew from a Klingon attack she genuinely believed to be inevitable (and which, objectively, WAS).

She's not a black hat for doing that, unless your only viewpoint is the Roddenbery-era "SF officers must be perfect and morally infallible at all time). Do what you feel you are morally obligated to do, and then you stand up and take the consequences. And that's exactly what Mike did - she didn't even make a defense in the court-martial.
>>
>>55754430
"Ends justify the means" is extremely shaky and rarely-justifiable moral grounds.
>>
>>55754127
>I don't think it's unreasonable to give STD at least ~10 eps to get there.

Well I ain't gonna try and stop you but honestly I've got better things to do than give that show time. If it does actually massively improve I will be pleasantly surprised and can skip over the shite bits.

I'll disagree with you on the mutiny being the right thing. The Vulcan approach was something that was arrived on by consensus and applied fleet-wide over time from a position of clear firepower advantage. They were not in anything like that situation. A sudden, radical shift in policy would not have helped at that point, and probably just gotten the ship destroyed. It was portrayed like it might have been the right thing, but any further analysis would put that into question. Even Sarek advised against it.

Shooting first would not have prevented the war, it would have just made them look even more duplicitous or at best, erratic. The only thing that would have prevented the war would have been fucking off and leaving well alone.
Saru was in the right, not Burnham.
>>
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>Orville does an episode lampshading and then prohibiting time travel plotlines
>Discovery is certain to dive into time travel via dimensional shifts
>people are still debating which show is better
>>
>>55754633
>Discovery is certain to dive into time travel via dimensional shifts

With no dimensional shifts there's no mirror universe episodes and no lesbian Kira/Dax.

Clearly, star trek is superior.
>>
>>55754697
Isn't summer over yet?
>>
>>55754697
>and no lesbian Kira/Dax
Bisexual Kira sucked, she was supposed to be a heterosexual who just gets really fucking turned on by herself. Also, Esri sucks, but not as bad as Jadzia.
>>
>>55754515

Not even going to lie, my sincere hope for Discovery is that during their timeline/dimensional bullshittery they find an alternate timeline where Mike successfully mutinied and fired on the Klingons...and it's THAT timeline leads directly (except for the visuals, obviously, since there's no way we're going back to that aethetic nor would anyone accept it) to the actual TOS timeline we all know where there was an uneasy peace between the Klingons and Starfleet instead of the actual shooting war the "CBS Prime" timeline is actually in.

Thus proving that she was actually right, and the inflexbility of thought and unwillingness to compromise shown by Starfleet is what led them directly to a shit timeline instead of the relatively peaceful exploration-focused timeline of TOS.

I don't think STD is that self-aware. But I'd find it awesome if they actually did it.
>>
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I just Orville ep. 5. Hot damn, that was genuinely really good. It finally felt like a Star Trek episode, and not a fanfiction by a guy that doesn't fully get the details.

What do you guys think Data would do as a practical joke?
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>>55754910
>What do you guys think Data would do as a practical joke?
Judging by Generations, he'd likely analyze the cultural database for types of personal jokes and emulate the physical aspect without understanding context and nuance.

So like, he'd randomly hit Worf with a pie or put a whoopy cushion on Geordi's chair and not understand why people aren't laughing.
>>
>>55754981
>he'd randomly hit Worf with a pie
I just realized that it's possible under the right context to make one's self the butt of a joke at the expense of a third party.
>>
>>55754981
Would Worf feel offended over Data besmirching his honor or would he get that Data just doesn't understand and sternly tell him to not do that bullshit again?
>>
>>55754981
Data just slamming a pie in Worf's face without any sort of warning would be pretty funny though.
>>
I want to be mad that a show make by professional unfunny man Seth McFuckingFarlane is a better Star Trek show than the actual Star Trek show currently running, and is a better Star Trek show than anything in the Star Trek universe going back to Next Generation.

Is this good place I can be mad about that? Because I want to be mad.
>>
>>55755272
>Is this good place I can be mad about that? Because I want to be mad.
This is 4chan, you came to the right fucking place.

>is a better Star Trek show than anything in the Star Trek universe going back to Next Generation.
But now you're gonna get a whoopin, boy, because DS9 and Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand are gonna smack you the fuck around.
>>
>>55755485
>But now you're gonna get a whoopin, boy, because DS9 and Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand are gonna smack you the fuck around.

He's right, tho.

DS9 is a great show, but it's pretty bad Star Trek. The characters have major flaws and argue, the captain is a war criminal, the story is about war when humanity has canonically evolved past that, and show isn't even set
on a ship. Of al the series, it's by far the most untrue to what Star Trek is supposed to be about.
>>
>>55755272
Do NOT disparage the Sisko. He will grab Garak and they will turn your friends into their allies and then Live With It.
If that's not enough-
Picard Q punches: 0
Sisko Q punches: 1
>>
>>55755580
>Sisko Q punches: 1

>taking joy in violence

That's not something to celebrate. An evolved human shouldn't have to resort to crude violence while perfectly capable of diplomacy. This is exactly the sort of degredation of what Star Trek was supposed to be that I was talking about in >>55755527. It's a disgrace to all Star Trek fans that mindless aggression from a war criminal is seen as something laudable.
>>
>>55755527
All of what you've posted has been shown repeatedly on TOS and TNG, DS9 just made a show about it instead of tucking it off to the side.
>>
>“We needed to know what it was like for them to go through this too,” he continued. “We wanted to shift everyone’s perspective of what the Klingons are because they’ve often been relegated to just being the bad guy.” He added that the show would show lots of Klingons, that “were all created around the central premise of what Klingons are.” But the goal was to “for lack of a better word, humanize them.” To explain what they want and why they want it. If they didn’t explore this, Kurtzman said, “This wouldn’t be Star Trek.”

I guess Kurtzman somehow missed the last 30 years of Star Trek then, good to know.
Or perhaps he's so stupid that he legitimately doesn't realize that the Abrams films weren't where Star Trek comes from?
>>
>>55755527
Picard AND O'Brien had fought in the Federation-Cardassians War, idiot.
They had war forced upon them, they didn't start it.
>>
>>55755697
At this point Captain Worf would have been the better series.
>>
>>55755714
They didn't start the Dominion War either. The Jem'Hadar kamikazed a Galaxy class starship for no reason.
>>
>>55755697
>to “for lack of a better word, humanize them.”
Worf was a major character for almost a fucking decade on TWO separate shows.
What is even this fucking moron on about?
>>
>>55755716
I would have watched the shit out of that.
>>
>>55755730
That's my point.
The Federation will fight in a war if forced upon them and they'll struggle to overcome base aggression, but they won't be aggressors.
>>
>>55755697
>the Abrams films weren't where Star Trek comes from?


Nah. Just fun, watchable, Star Trek.
>>
>>55755684
>Q punches Sisko in the face no less than four times
>Sisko punches him a grand total of once and looks at Q like the entire situation is stupid
>this is Sisko's fault
>>
>>55755754

Sisko punching Q wasn't in self-defense. It was an aggressive, deliberate choice, and he could have walked away instead. But he chose to be aggressive when there were other options, which is one more reason why DS9 is bad Star Trek.

>aside from the whole "depopulating a planet" thing, which is completely indefensible.
>>
>>55755765
>bait/10

>>55755797
>bait/10 again

Man, sure is summer in here. Amazing, since it ended a month ago. Can't imagine what's up with this shit.
>>
>>55755797
Q pinged them into a makeshift fight pit in Quark's surrounded by a rabble of people preventing him from leaving and then punched him in the head multiple times. Sisko punched him once in self-defense and then stopped.
>>
>>55755836
>Sisko punched him once in self-defense and then stopped.

In fairness, two points. Sisko blocked Q's punch, paused, and then hit him. That wouldn't stand up in a court of law, because Sisko paused, thus proving he's not in immediate danger.

Second point, Sisko didn't actually try to leave. He stood there, got hit a few times, and then decked Q. I don't feel that hitting Q was unreasonable at all, but it's not like Sisko couldn't have TRIED to walk away. He didn't even try, and a good Starfleet officer should have at least TRIED to de-escalate the situation. Sisko didn't.

SummerAnon is right that Sisko's not the sort of captain Starfleet wants, by their own lofty standards. He's the man they NEEDED, but he certainly doesn't display the temperment or conduct we expect from Starfleet. Of the various sane captains (which rules out Archer and Janeway, incidentally), he's by far the closest to what we're seeing in Discovery.
>>
>>55755527
>the story is about war when humanity has canonically evolved past that
The Klinks and the shapeshifters hit first, and Sisko isn't a war criminal.
>>
>>55755911
>blocked the punch, showing you're not in immediate danger
>from an omnipotent godlike being who can rewrite history with a snap of his fingers
Were you born this stupid or did you take lessons?
>>
>>55755911
>but he certainly doesn't display the temperment or conduct we expect from Starfleet
For good reason. He's a broken man who was about to leave the service until the Prophets convinced him to get past his dead wife, and Starfleet would absolutely have transferred him from DS9 and replaced him with no less than a commodore were he not also the Emissary.
In fact, a good argument could be made that he's the Emissary because the Prophets knew he was the only man willing to take certain actions which ultimately saw Bajor in a far better place than it had ever been before.
>>
>>55755911
Okay let's say it's a bar. White guy walks up to a black guy and punches him in the face a bunch of times. He goes for another punch and the black guy blocks it, then punches him twice, then just stands there without going back after him.

There are zero courts that would convict in that situation.
>>
>>55755968
>There are zero courts that would convict in that situation.
>a Black guy
>>
>>55755923
>Sisko isn't a war criminal.

So yeah the Federation, bastion of peace, justice, enlightened reason, philosophy, and science should use chemical weapons on a planet in retaliation against a group of people comprised of a mix of terrorist types and others who have been caught up after only trying to protect their home and finding they've been left high-and-dry. The existence of the Maquis is evidence of a diplomatic failure on the part of the Federation, and their use of chemical/biological weapons to make a planet uninhabitable is NOT a just solution. Eddington did literally the same thing. Eddington used chemical weapons to displace planets full of Cardassians, and they explicitly called him a war criminal for doing that, but when Sisko does it, because he happens to be a badass captain you like, he gets a pass?

No.

Ask yourself this: would Picard have done it? Is that action in line with the values of the Federation? Isn't one of the literal definitions of "war criminal" someone who deliberately deprives large civilian populations of their homes and forces them into refugee status?

>No
>No
>Yes

Federation morality does NOT amount to "Well he started it!" As stated upthread, the ends don't justify the means. Sisko isn't a hero, he should have been drummed out of uniform and if the Federation wasn't terrified and at war, he would have been. He's no better than anyone else on Discovery.
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>>55755989
>Ask yourself this: would Picard have done it?
Just an fyi, if that's the standard you're using then literally all of Starfleet's Admiralty is wrong.
>>
>>55756011

Um, you may not want to follow that thought line, anon. Because it's pretty much canon that once you get the rank of commodore or higher, pretty much everything you do actually is wrong.

I can't remember a single commodore or admiral who wasn't a net negative influence over Picard and the Federation.
>>
>>55756040
Kirk, briefly
>>
>>55756048
He also told Picard right to his face in person to NEVER become an Admiral because it meant you "stopped making a real difference".
So yeah, even Kirk had a low view of the Admiralty and he WAS one of them.
>>
>>55755967
No, he's the emissary because the prophets literally were his mom.
>>
>>55755911
I would say Sisko was right o the edge of what the fleet needs, if not aspires to. He was dark when he needed to be, BUT only after a lot of character building. At the start he was just PTSD Wolf 359 survivor who was given a crap posting on the edge of nowhere. heck he was only just then a full commander at the time.
Discovery though shoves a season's worth of character building into two episodes.

This is something becoming more and more common in TV and I hate it; this 'front loading' of character being told who we should watch and root for, told how awesome character X and not shown how awesome they are. It's something I really noticed with Stargate Universe and have been watching for ever since. Discovery just amps it up to 11 tossing a bunch of actors on screen and slapping us over the head with the shallow 'characters' they're playing.

As for Sisko by the time we realize just how far we will go, ow comfortable he is going that far we as the audience are perhaps taken aback, but more empathetic with it.
Imagine if In the Pale Moonlight was a first or second season episode, or even done at the beginning of the Dominion war it would have been out of place. But we'd been seeing how desperate things are getting for dozens of episodes before the moral line is crossed.

Discovery crosses that line on the second episode.
>>
>>55755716
>Captain Worf

Federation captain or Klingon Empire captain?
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>>55749111
>Or they could have the kind of 'skills' that you don't learn at Starfleet Academy.
>>55749013
Boosting Carouse/Gambling or the equivalent?
>>
>>55756098
The rumors said it was going to a star fleet ship with a bunch of Klingons he brought back from his time with Martok. So they'd have this odd sort of mixed company ship.
I thought it would have been neat and bu all accounts Dorn was in favor of the idea.
>>
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>>55749316
>>55749717
FASA trek has multiple supplements involving the Orions, including the Triangle and an Orion book. There's also bits in the Intelligence forces book. (sorry about the double post, I posted without refreeshing..)


>>55752085
>What? Citation definitely needed on that one, never heard that.

Well, there's the episode with the evil Trill who non-con bonds with someone. They then quietly swept it under the rug for DS9. There's a couple novels later on, but >>55752148 got those.

>>55752288
The idea was cool. The execution was shite.
>>
>>55756040
Necheyev was never actually wrong, just kind of a bitch.
>>
>>55756104
I wish I could find the parts list for the 2287 model, I'd build the shit out of that one.
>>
>>55756240
>using io9 as a source for Trek
Anon pls. Everything about the series is some sort of ebul white man rape fantasy to them.
>>
>>55755989
>would Picard have done it?
Yes, he would have. He forcibly displaced colonists for the Federation at the behest of both the Sheliak and the Cardassians and I have no doubts that he would use any non-lethal means to finish job, up to using biological agents.
>>
>>55756077
The Prophets were his mom after they met him.
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>>55754280
>>mutiny is ABSOLUTELY defensible
>You've never served, have you.
You've never heard of the B-59, have you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_B-59

There are absolutely times mutiny is defensible. They are few, and fucking far between. There's a reason the penalty is death.

>>55754283
>Why is a mutiny (something that has never happened before or since that we know of)
We have at least two classic "take the ship" mutinies from TNG, not to mention the entirety of the plots of of ST3-4 >and< VI (where multiple officers mutiny against direct orders from the Admiralty, both on the "good" and "bad" sides). Kirk & Co. go on fucking TRIAL for mutiny and piracy in STIV, for fuck's sake.
>>
>>55756240
>Well, there's the episode with the evil Trill who non-con bonds with someone. They then quietly swept it under the rug for DS9.
There's no alpha canon indication that those were Trill.
>>
>>55756398
The description there is wrong; there IS a Type-1 phaser built into it, it's just slotted under a barrel shroud just forward of the "power pack".
>>
>>55756398
>I wish I could find the parts list for the 2287 model, I'd build the shit out of that one.
Monstersinmotion has at least one stunt cast up for sale on ebay right now for $55. I can root out ref images later if you'd like.

>>55756412
Did you actually read the chart? Because it's pretty fucking accurate.
>>
>>55756524
No I mean as an actual prop, not the Trek parts.
>>
>>55756040
Ross.

Also that admiral who sneakily approved the plan to run a screen during the Klingon civil war. Bunch of others who turned up for mission briefings too seemed alright.

Ranks above captain only became noticeable if they were around for a while like Ross or an antagonist, yet we saw a ton just doing their job.
>>
>>55755989
How can he be a war criminal if there was no war?
>>
>>55756533
>Monstersinmotion has at least one stunt cast up for sale on ebay right now for $55. I can root out ref images later if you'd like.
I'd be down to see that.
>>
>>55756650
Ross was section 31
>>
>>55756743
He's listed as a sympathiser not a member.
Also he still had a net positive effect overall.
>>
>>55743370
>Acting is cringy
>I never thought i'd miss soap opera cinematography
> I never thought I'd miss tng's technobabble
> Klingon redesign is godawful
>[Spoiler] the plot is advanced by someone touching an ancient alien artifact for no reason, Prometheus style[/spoiler]
> They lied about adhering to cannon

And that's not even touching how the executives managed to sjw-fuck a universe where no one gave a shit about he black disabled man in engineering.
>>
NEW THREAD CHUCKLEFUCK FRIENDS

>>55757242
>>55757242
>>55757242
>>
Sometimes I worry about being too meek or timid, so I'd like to thank you /stg/, for letting me know that there are people who don't think that Sisko flooring Q is one of the greatest moments of televised Star Trek history. Picard never stood up to Q's harassment because Q never threatened the crews lives directly, Sisko didn't played with him and he never showed his face on DS9 again.
>>
>>55755989
No one called Eddington a war criminal. A traitor, but not a war criminal. They were worried about him using those chemical weapons because it threatened the peace. No one died from either side's use of those weapons. They had time to evacuate before the environment became toxic to them. If Eddington had started a new Federation/Cardassian war a lot of people would have died as a result.




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