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Welcome to the Old School Renaissance general discussion thread.

>Trove:
http://pastebin.com/raw/QWyBuJxd
>Tools & Resources:
http://pastebin.com/raw/KKeE3etp
>Old School Blogs:
http://pastebin.com/raw/ZwUBVq8L

>Previous thread:
>>57330791

Thieves. How would YOU have implemented the concept, you goddamned know-it-all?
>>
>>57365743
>How would YOU have implemented the concept
Vancian thieves
>>
>>57365791
Da fuq? Explain.
>>
>>57365743
>Thieves. How would YOU have implemented the concept, you goddamned know-it-all?
They stay. Fighters go. Everyone knows how to fight.
>>
>>57365834

He probably means the original thieves, which are similar to those from the Complete Warlock. (TCW was written down later after numerous changes)
>>
>>57365743
I think Thieves are fine the way they are and only basement dwelling troglodytes who don't have a real-world skillset of their own think that "everyone should be able to do what they do."

Next time your dorito shits clog the pipes and you call a plumber, ask yourself why you couldn't do it.
>>
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So after Steal the Pope (which is almost done, I swear), I'm going to do an underground OSR hexcrawl.

Hexes are "12 hours travel" wide. The actual scale doesn't matter. It's caves. So you can move 6 hexes before moving from Hungry->Starving and 6 more before moving from Starving->Dying... assuming you don't stop moving for 6 days, even to sleep, and nothing delays you. Not bloody likely.

There are 3 depth levels. Light grey is highest: Littoral. The shore. Random encounters are normal-ish. If the random encounter tables for this zone was a film, it'd be C.H.U.D. Things living here know about the surface and may have even seen it.

Mid grey is the middle depth. Profundal. Beyond light. Random encounters are more dangerous, more worrying. If if was a film it'd be Alien.

Dark grey is the deepest bit on the map. Abyssal. Beyond everything. Random encounters are drawn from the weirder and darker bits of VotE, etc. If it was a film it'd be Solaris.

The factions that dominate an area are marked. Areas with dashes are neutral, contested, or too resource-poor to support a dominant culture.

The thick black lines prevent anyone from crossing. Fault lines, chasms, folds, solid blocks of stone, whatever. No way through; got to go around. Waaay around.

Players will generally know when they are descending or ascending but may not know their direction or relative position. The map they draw will be weeeird.

Hexes will have a description and the usual stuff. There will be faction encounter tables and depth encounter tables. Possibly linked.

Thoughts at this point? Does it make any sense?
>>
>>57366003
>I'm going to do an underground OSR hexcrawl
D2 and Cyclopean Depths exist, what does your shitbrew do that they don't?
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>>57363180
haven't had a chance to actually use them, but generally mine are more in the vein of Lovecraft's, so while they are corpse eaters, they aren't automatically malevolent, and can even be helpful in the right circumstances(indeed many like to help adventurers cause they often leave a lot of corpses in their path), and they aren't undead, although they do naturally radiate necrotic energy, which might be why many think they are(well that and while they can't die of old age or disease, some Ghouls do turn themselves into Liches, or Mummies occasionally, although they are fully immune to being turned into most other kinds of undead, including all forms of non-sapient undead)

the Anthropophagi/Blemmyes which they are distantly related to are much more vicious though(if Ghouls are the Homo Sapiens of their family tree, Blemmyes are pretty much the Homo Erectus of it), though some Ghoul societies(and some non-Ghoul cultures they have close contact with) raise semi-domesticated versions in similar roles that Humans would breed dogs for
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So let's talk about Gangs.

In this case; partially thug street gang, partially group of friends, partially rival adventuring parties, partially small time mafiosos style gangs for my urban fantasy campaign.

What I want to figure out is a rule system for calculating gang strength or power and how it may increase/decrease over the course of a campaign. My current idea uses a sort of "protracted month-long gangwars but as regular combat". Note that this isn't necessarily mass combat rules in one single night of violence, but is instead intended for long term since the party could run into the same gang multiple times.

Here's the current idea for the rules.
>Gangs have an amount of power equal to HD like a creature. Small gangs are 3-4 HD, medium gangs are 5-8 HD, big scary gangs are 10+ HD. Gangs get +1 HD in their own turf.
>The HD of the gang is equal to the amount of HD of gangsters they could send at you at any given time or that they have on hand. The 2 HD gangs can only send the two papernelli brothers with iron pipes to fuck you up, for example
>Most gangsters count as having 1 HD, but it's calculated in total HD for those occasional gangs like the Jungle Boys that can send a trained warfare gorilla at you with 2 machine guns, one in each hand, who has 4 HD. If their gang strength is 5, they can only send one of those gorillas at you +1 other dude, etc.
>Each time you kill gang members in a fight, roll a d20 + number of gangsters killed vs 10 + advantages of the gang. If you succeed the check then remove 1 HD from the gang's pool.
>Gangs with a lot of businesses, contacts, and marked territory will have a higher advantage/AC bonus against your "attack" against the gang itself.
>Gangs can increase their power over time by recruitment and such.
>Taking out a gang's leader always removes their HD from the pool

How is this for something simple?
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>>57366084
Treat them like ships.
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>>57366049
Include modern hipster content?
Serve as a framework for including underground content (like Cyclopean Depths?)
Be free?

>>57366084
I like Gangs having HD. Feels kind of like Apocalypse World. In fact, if you haven't, those rules might be worth scanning for ideas to nick.
>>
>>57366169

>Each SHP is equal to 10 character hit points

Hmm, maybe after you get done killing some gangsters the total HP of damage the gangsters had gets counted up and for each 10 you remove 1 HD from the gang's pool? Or just reduce the gang's actual hit points by -1 per 10 character damage you do to them?

The ship rules are interesting but not super helpful.
>>
>>57366003
Sounds okay. Make the black lines even thicker, and maybe some rules about how to add to the hexcrawl. Light system makes sense and I now have a movie to watch. Nice to know that it's free.
You don't need to use your /IRC spacing/ when every chunk is just one line.
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>>57366245
Good points. Not much I can do about the map at this stage. It's mostly for reference, but it'll get there.
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>>57366049
Fuck off back to /5eg/ thanks in advance
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>>57366003
The hexcrawl seems like an inelegant choice for subterranean space. A hexcrawl is meant to map out open, 2-D space; the Veins of the Underdark is closed-off, 3-D space. A party exploring a hexcrawl can climb to a high point and survey the landscape. It can decide to go north or southeast or whatever. You can't do any of that underground. A spelunking party is just following tunnels and has lost all sense of direction beyond forwards and backwards. If I was making a subterranean exploration map, I'd make it a pointcrawl.
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>>57366555
>>57366275
Also, looking at your civilizations, it seems pretty...lethal.
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>>57365886
The people who made this didn't use Vancian MUs at the time.
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>>57365743
>Thieves. How would YOU have implemented the concept, you goddamned know-it-all?
A mix of 2e and ACKS thieves
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>>57364878
>>57365166
Healing aside, it's strictly less generous than
http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/03/gary-gygaxs-whitebox-od-house-rules.html
>>
>>57366084
Reminds me of http://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2016/09/bx-class-extras.html
>>
>>57366555
>>57366573
Sorry buddy but Skerpshit is beyond criticism go back to /5eg/
>>
>>57366709
Hey man I love Skerples as much as the next guy, but even the greatest /osr/ poster is not above criticism. Now back to r/Pathfinder with you.
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>>57366734
Skerples disagrees.
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>>57366573
In order of lethalness, I'd eyeball it as:

Least
-Dvergr
-Olm
-Antlings
-Ghouls
-Dracospawn
-Fungids
-Archaeans (by accident)
-Illithid
-Ruins
-Drow
-Cholerids
Most

But there are ways around the issues.
>>57366555
> If I was making a subterranean exploration map, I'd make it a pointcrawl.
Considered and tested. The issue was tracking rations and time. Each hex is 1/6th of a ration and 12 hours.

Yeah, it doesn't make it feel very 3D to the GM, but imagine it this way. Each hex is connected to the others. And there are ways to sense direction. Water flow for one. Depth and heat. Guides.
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>>57366761
>The issue was tracking rations and time.
Stick numbers on the line segments, you dense bastard.
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>>57366745
Not even slightly. Anon has very valid points and I appreciate them.

The "getting lost" bit is something I'm working on. How do the players decide where to go next? Rumours? Smells? Scrying? Compasses?
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>>57366776
Flights of fancy.
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>>57366709
>be anon
>don't have argument
>piggyback on someone else's constructive criticism so my zero-effort smarmy reply looks witty

If all you can contribute to the thread is mindlessly shitting on OC because there's something similar published, you should, in fact, fuck off back to /5eg/
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>>57366849
crosslink examples or stop falseflagging
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>>57366857

>>57366049
>>
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>>57366775
Did. It became messy, didn't look how I wanted it to look. It also didn't give a good sense of relative sizes of different areas without me redrawing the map... and at that point, it was just a hexcrawl again.

The lines and routes made it feel linear and safe. The lines felt like roads.
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>>57366874
Draft it with CADD, then print off a top-down?
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>>57366888
Could run a kickstarter to print models of the whole thing in 3D... but that'd be expensive and kind of pointless. Nerds accrue plastic knicknacks like a dresser accrues dust bunnies.

Think of the hexes as accessibly adjacent rather than exactly physically adjacent. The whole thing is folded and lumpy and twisted around... but since the players won't see the map, it's fine.
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>>57366935
>but that'd be expensive and kind of pointless
Even cheapo free stuff would work. You're literally just using it to draw a graph.
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>>57366874
>>57366935
Hadn't you posted something about making 3d maps with clay to replace the cave generation in VotE?
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>>57367021
I did! It was fun. Doesn't work on a large scale though, but it makes exploring fun in short sessions. The players really like it.
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>>57367076
>>57367021
You could give each hex a depth rating, and stack poker chips in them for representation as you go along. Probably vary the colours for different types of terrain, density, etc.
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>>57367165
But I already did that with the light-dark grey thing... with the added bonus of portability and immunity to cats. Fuckin' cats. Tried terrain density markers (hatching or symbols), but it ended up being too busy. I figure I can include some of that info in the hex descriptions.

All really good ideas though. Who knew mapping could be so hard?
>>
Since this business came up again, I recommend watching the Planet Earth episode on caves, both for game reasons and otherwise. Features things like ecosystems fueled by hundred-meter piles of bat guano and the cockroaches who live on it
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>>57367205
>cat countermeasures
Might not work as well for this, but I went hex&chit wargame style with those little magnet clips on a metal backing. Does not stop the cat from trying though.
>>
For your hexmaps. Do you prefer having a predetermined encounter or two for every hex that players can discover, or do you prefer a few predetermined encounters but mostly rolling on a random encounter table?
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>>57366935
But how do the players explain their moves to the DM? I'm trying to envision how it would work and I don't see it. In an overland hexcrawl, the players say "We continue south towards those mountains" and the DM moves them one hex down. The map smoothly corresponds to how the players want to explore.

Now how does that work underground? The party can't say what cardinal direction they've moving toward. They don't have distant landmarks they can use to navigate. They don't have six choices on where to move. I suppose they can follow their guide, but getting led around by a gnome defeats the whole point of the 'crawl.

The way I imagine subterranean exploration is you're in a tunnel. You can move forward or backward. You come to a fork in the tunnel. You tell the GM you want to go through the left fork. Now how does the GM know which hex to put you and your friends in? I'm confused.

(PS: Congrats on Steal the Pope, I'm really excited to see it.)
>>
>>57366003
Hexes as indicators of travel time seems off--how do you account for the underground terrain, for the difficulty or ease of traversing different cave areas? Like, some are big open galleries or old lava tubes all on pretty much the same plane, but others require a lot of climbing and rapelling, and others are cramped warrens with lots of narrow squeezes and ways to get lost, and others have rivers and sumps to ford, swim, or go around. I think that at the time-scale you are using for resources these sorts of distinctions of difficulty are relevant, rather necessary.

At first glance, that's what I thought your greyscale was for--darker=harder/longer. In fact, that is the method I came up with for my version of this project. It's an elaboration on the D1-2-3 large scale hex map with its primary/secondary/tertiary passages. You just do different maps sheets for the different levels of depth, like you do for a basic dungeon.

(Sorry if this is redundant--I have not yet read Stuart's VotE. Also, Blind Descent, The Quest to Discover the Deepest Cave on Earth, by James Tabor is pretty nifty.)

Looking forward to seeing more of this and your Pope-thingy too.
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>>57367260
Current cat countermeasure is inviting one player who is allergic to cats. The cat, of course, sits on them the entire session.

>>57367368
I'm considering going with a Main encounter in each hex, a Secret encounter in each hex, and a table of random encounters for each zone.

>>57367395
>But how do the players explain their moves to the DM?
I think it's more describing their general goals. "We want to go up" " We want to go towards the drow city." "We want to follow the river."

And, hopefully, there will also be following the links in each hex.

>he way I imagine subterranean exploration is you're in a tunnel. You can move forward or backward. You come to a fork in the tunnel. You tell the GM you want to go through the left fork.
So the hexes are for abstracted, high level movement. If you roll up a random encounter that tells you to generate a cave and put some enemies in it or whatever, /then/ you generate a tunnel with a fork and all that. But until you need it, the party is moving through a nebulous superposition-cave-space.
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>>57367524
>-how do you account for the underground terrain, for the difficulty or ease of traversing different cave areas?
The good ol' Random Encounter Table. Some encounters will be with the terrain. Some might speed you up, but the vast majority will slow you down. Climbs, rappels, falls, sumps, dead ends - all on the Table.

A roll on the table could put the entire party in the middle of a climb when the light goes out or on a narrow ledge when bats attack.

> first glance, that's what I thought your greyscale was for--darker=harder/longer.
This will factor in. The lower levels will have more "delay" results and more severe terrain encounters too.
>>
>>57367573
Well that makes a bit more sense. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it though; mapping 3D space onto a 2D surface is very unintuitive. Also, I'm not sold on "We want to go up". What if you can't find a passage going up? Even worse, what if you find a passage going up for a half mile, then down for a steep five miles? Exploring underground puts you at the mercy of weird tunnel systems that could move you around in a way that doesn't happen on the surface. Maybe you could put in a mechanic that dumps you in the wrong hex from time to time. The drow city example makes more sense, although it presupposes you have some directions.
>>
Babby's first OSR system?
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>>57368139
Spawn of Fashan.
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>>57368122
>; mapping 3D space onto a 2D surface is very unintuitive.
Ah, true! This isn't quite a map of space though. It's a map of proximity.
>What if you can't find a passage going up?
That's the obvious assumption. You might be able to migrate one band up (so Abyssal to Profundal or Profundal to Littoral), but if there's no higher band next to you, you just move to the next hex over (randomly assigned, if there's no other direction given) and stay at the same level or drop.
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>>57368139

B/X: ages 10 and up
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Well Skerples, you've certainly thought this through. All I can say is best of luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your ideas in action.

Also, this discussion inspired me so here's my attempt at a subterranean pointcrawl that uses to color to determine how many rations you're using.
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To compliment the underground hexcrawl thing, here's my take on Noble Ghouls.
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2018/01/osr-ghouls-of-illiam.html

Nothing too out-there, but it might be useful.
>>
Why do you people always talk about skerples he doesn't even namefag and you still bring him up.

Do you want namefags in this general or something?
>>
>>57369023
He shills a lot and has a very distinctive posting style, plus he is the physical incarnation of OSR hipsterism. When isolated the best this thread can do skub-wise is stuff like thief skills, so Skerples is a bottomless source of shitflinging on a pinch
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>>57369148
>he is the physical incarnation of OSR hipsterism
That's not fair. You have no idea what I look like, and Lungfungus is swole, tattooed, and beaded. He's definitely got this one sewn up.
>>57366646
How did I miss this?
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>>57369148
The only source of shitflinging is the autismo that keeps harping his skerples boogeyman complex. I assume that is you.
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>>57368251
Hey, that's for ADULTS ages 10 and up, mister.
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OSR Art book recommendations? I have all the TSR art books.

The Art of Dragon Magazine
The Arof of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of TSR
The Art of Dragonlance
The Art of D&D
>>
>>57366761

Fucking lizard kobolds. *Sight* dogfaced kobolds are the path to OSR enlightenment
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>>57370533
Lizard and dogbolds are both shit.
The patrician choice is a fantastical chimerical creature that defies description and neat real life categories.
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>>57368139
Basic Fantasy

It's free (or cheap if you want the book), it's written in easy to understand, unpretentious english, and it's got everything you need in the core book
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>>57370514
Down in the Dungeon
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>>57369193
Pic related was just a very influential film for me.
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>>57371829
The only reason I use it and not LL (+AEC) is because BFRPG was smart enough to move to ascending armor class.
>>
Does anyone have a pdf of B/X Essentials ?
>>
>>57373152
>>
Without all the tactics and options of later editions, how do you keep combat interesting?
>>
How many sessions does the average DCC character actually survive, and how often do people get agitated at having to start over with 0 level characters multiple times?
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>>57373801
By making the players use... tactics.

A draw of OSR is that combat is quick, lethal, and relies on players not being ubermensch and actually using their brains. Modern D&D combat takes ages because of HP bloat on both sides.

It requires a bit more "design" in the dungeon crawl and a little more detail in the wilderness, but the goal is to get the players to use tactics. Prison fight vs zombies where the fighter braces the door while the thief and magic-user shoot through the bars. Push the minecart into the horde of goblins. Even something as simple as spiking the door shut or dropping caltrops exist because it gives the players an advantage.
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>>57373801
House rules, well, more accurately (and truer to OSR sensibilities) rulings.

The newer editions have tactics because they have clearly codified abilities and processes. The OSR doesn't. What OSR games make up for with that is near infinite possibilities. Combat is so lethal and quick that everyone, monsters included, will be doing everything they can to survive. Goblins will try to screw you over by dipping serrated blades in shit and planting traps everywhere, orcs swarm you en masse, bandits ambush you, nobles rely on their superior gear. The odds are stacked against you, and in this stacking, you create a tactical situation.

Note: You don't have to make it brutal, that's just the quick and easy way of getting to it.

So a player says, hey, what happens if I jump on top of this guy. And you say, well, make an attack roll at a penalty and then split the fall damage and stab him. The list goes on and on.
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>>57373715
I'm another anon but, the formatting in that pdf is criminal. You shouldn't start a new section at the bottom of a page or just cut up tables haphazardly, makes it super hard to read.
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>>57369148
Please tell me this whole "skerples sucks" is just one person meme'ing hard.
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>>57374626
skerples definitely isn't the end all, be all of osr.
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>>57374590
It's the free RTF pasted into Word converted into PDF
Beggars can't be choosers
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What’s that there old school gamer radio about?
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>>57374892
HD recordings of your mom yelling at you to stop playing that board game and asking if your friends are staying for dinner.
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>>57374892
Old Man Finch feeling the spectre of old age a-calling and trying to convert 20something hipsters to the True OSR path.
>>
to anon in the last thread asking about Plot In Wolfpacks
It's totally doable, but not the style of play the GM's stuff is designed for. So you'll need to do a /lot/ more work before running the game compared to running it as a sandbox, which can be done with 0 prep.

Wolfpacks's system doesn't facilitate games that aren't fundamentally travel-based. The way the game's set up works well for a fellowship-of-the-ring style game; a sort of dangerous journey adventure.
I ran a decent length campaign where the PCs were pilgrims making their way to the lost shrine of their god, restoring it to functionality. Which is not a PLOT plot, but gave the PCs more direction than just 'here's a sandbox, have fun'.

Other advice, if you or your players are coming to this from pathfinder: Hammer home early on that the game isn't fair. Make them read the 'tips on running the game' page, and then kill a PC or two in session one to hammer the point home. Lethality happens. The world is not balanced to your party level.
If you try to wrestle the system into having appropriate CR and four-fights-per-day, it's not gonna go well because a) the game's far more focussed on exploration and b) I hate that style of game so deliberately put no tools for balancing encounters in.

Martian tech sounds like the kind of thing that players will have loads of fun with. In my experience, 'anything made of metal' is the sort of amazing treasure players will do a LOT for, so alien technology is going to motivate them well.
If that's a thing, remember that Contact Other Worlds (or whatever it's called) exists, so players can literally phone up martians for advice if they get the right spell. it might be worth putting some thought into what the martians are up to, and what they think of all this. Perhaps even end with a tripod invasion if things get out of hand.

Oh, and for fucksake post here how it goes, my ego needs massaging.
Any questions?
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>>57374626

Yeah, that's what I figure, too.
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>>57374142
I have a pile of randomly generated lv 1s. You should too.
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>>57369023
fucking namefags. GRR.

desu, I quite like skerps' stuff. The mechanics are fucking useless to me because I don't run GLOG stuff, but honestly mechanics are the least interesting bit of the game. The world-building and ideas and content is always useful.
Plus, you know, somebody posting OC is always a plus.

then again, I have no idea why people get all upset about 'hipsterism' in the OSR. New ideas and weirdness is good and useful; if we want the traditional D&D experience, that exists and it's good, but it's been done so much there's very little else to do with the concepts beyond the New Weird stuff that goes around.
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>>57375797
Nothing wrong with new ideas. Just things wrong with pretentious people, 3edgy5me things, and the like.
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>>57374626
As one of the people I am pretty sure there are 3+
>>
This is meant to have hyperlinks to other random tables but they aren't finished yet, so I'll just post this by itself for now. Intended for modern fantasy.
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Has anyone run a Stars Without Number game using the Darkness Visible rules for an agency game? How did it go?
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>>57371973

THx I have that too. Looking to expand my collection. My kids love looking through them too.
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>>57374142
It's all part of the fun to me.
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No Fire on the Velvet Horizon in the trove? I'd like to try before I buy.
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>>57376963
The trove hasn't been updated in ages I think, but Fire on the Velvet Horizon was one of those books that were impossible to find online last thing I heard. There was a bundle that came with a pdf of it a while back, but I don't think anyone's uploaded it
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>>57377047
Actually, nevermind, it's on da archive. But for some fucking reason it's almost 600 mb
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>S&W Monstrosities is OD&D stat blocks stretched to fill 1/4 of a page with shitty adventure seeds to fill another 1/4 and unnecessary 2e formatting
Who the fuck greenlighted this.
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>>57377575

You forgot the 5” of white space on every page. I was dumb enough to buy it too (on sale for $38) Never again will I buy a book without viewing a pdf first.
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>>57374142
>how often do people get agitated at having to start over with 0 level characters multiple times?
Not at all. Each new character is a chance for a fresh start with new stats and a new personality to roleplay.
If you don't like that, then you should have your character retreat more often when the odds aren't in their favor.
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>>57377947
>If you don't like that, then you should have your character retreat more often when the odds aren't in their favor.
Let's face it - OSR characters will die even when everything is in their favor. Not every death is a player error, I'd say not even most.
>>
Has anyone used the spells in Wonders & Wickedness for an actual game?
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>>57374626
Oh look, it's another "only one person could possibly be annoyed by Skerples using the general as his personal adspace" post
>>
>>57378457
You claiming everyone who doesn't hate skerples is skerples samefagging is exactly as retarded
>>
>>57369148
He provides material which folks are free to use or ignore. I really don't see the problem. As far as I can see, it's the anti-Skerples people who shit up the thread.
>>
Hey /osrg/, I have a question because I'm dumb:

When you're leveling up a character, say from 2 to 3 or whatever, do you add the experience from the precious level to that, or do they 'start fresh', as it were?

For example, leveling a fighter from 1 to 2 is 2000 xp, and level 3 is 4000. Does that mean to get from 2 to 3 they need 2000 xp (because they already have 2k) or 4000 more xp (because you start from 0)?
>>
>>57378603
You don't zero out your XP after gaining a level, but rather keep a running tally.
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>>57378603
You never reset your XP total back to zero. You keep adding to the total unless you're a 2e Druid at 16th level.
>>
>>57378612
>>57378672

Alright, that's what I figured. Thanks.
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>>57378585
I've never complained about him because he's easy to ignore, but I can understand why people find the whole thing irritating.

Nobody else comes into every thread and posts updates on their WIP project, or links to every blog article they write.

In fact, I wish more people did! I miss tons of completed projects and solid articles because nobody here talks about them...
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>>57379239
>Nobody else comes into every thread and posts updates on their WIP project, or links to every blog article they write.
I do!

If a medic rolls to heal their injured friend, should the HP come back immediately, or when they next sleep? I'm edging towards when they sleep, but unsure.
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Does anyone have the alternate cover version of the White Box: Medieval Adventure Game (the one on the right in the picture)?
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>>57379313
Immediately, but healing any stat reductions or lowerings of max hp shouldn't take effect until they next sleep.
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>>57379239
You know what, anon? You've motivated me to get off my ass and start making a dungeon.
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>>57379239
>In fact, I wish more people did!
That's what *I'm* saying. I don't have any particular feelings about skerples one way or the other, but I'm all for people providing material.
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>>57379313
>If a medic rolls to heal their injured friend, should the HP come back immediately, or when they next sleep?
It seems like a conflict between ease of play and realism to me. Since D&D hit points aren't the most realistic mechanic anyway, I'd rule in favor of the former.
>>
I'm thinking of making a megadugeon for BFRPG. Does anyone have any tips for how to go about it?
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Has any modern game (released in the past 10-15 years) interested you for the reasons you go back to old school systems?
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>Yeah I wish everyone posted more OC!
>ignore the OC posted like 20-30 posts ago
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>>57379239
>Nobody else comes into every thread and posts updates on their WIP project, or links to every blog article they write.
I wish they did too!
>>57379313
Sleep, ideally. I have sleep+food heal fully.

>>57376297
I like this. The formatting feels a little raw, but it's got good energy. I love the NPCs, especially the permit guy.

Are the general gang tables, etc. up anywhere?
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>>57379965
I read it, I don't really have anything to say. It's fine? Reminds me of Escape from New York.

The blue maps guy and the lists guy should team up.
>>
I've been thinking of making a negadungeon (nowhere near megadungeon in scope), however, I don't want to pull the classic raggi-screwjob-switcheroo. So after reading a bunch of negadungeons (DFD, the tower, etc) I decided on a few principles I'd follow to make it not hideously unfair.

A) There will be actual treasure at the bottom. This is mostly a reaction to The Tower because, why, just why? Some of it might be cursed, but there should be an interesting way to get around the curse. It will definitely be trapped, after all, what good dungeon doesn't protect it's treasure.

B) Everything you do will not necessarily make everything else horrible. In the classic negadungeon, everything curses you, sets off traps, unleashes unspeakable evils, or some combination of the previous three items. I want there to be curses, horrible traps, unspeakable evils, otherwise I would've just made a normal dungeon, but they shouldn't be inevitable.

C) There is an easy way; the easy way will fuck you up; there is a hard way; the hard way will also fuck you up but won't fuck up the surrounding countryside. The farther you go down, the worse it is when you go back up, but if you're clever, you should find an alternate route that involves less horrible things. Most mods of DFD do this via a cheap trick by putting a treasure behind the plant thing and making you chop your way through it unleashing the apocalypse. DFDv2 paid lip service to this idea by giving you a way past the plant monster and some foreshadowing but not really because you're all screwed the instant you enter the dungeon and break the seal. I can do plenty of variations on a theme of that, but I'm kind of stuck beyond "horrible red button will do bad stuff and you must step on red button to progress unless you find the secret door" method. Does anyone understand what I'm talking about/have any frameworks I could build off of?
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>>57380177
>Are the general gang tables, etc. up anywhere?

Not yet. In the works, I'm going to be linking them all when I finish them over at the manse.
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What OSR system to use for modern fantasy game? How could I flavor stuff to make it work? Think like instead of exploring dungeons, you're clearing abandoned office buildings filled with mutated fae and shit.
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>>57380552
So... a dungeon then?
Because that's not really a negadungeon as I understand it.

Dungeons can have weird horrible stuff in them. Skeletons and vampires can get out. Gold can deflate the local economy. You can unleash plant monsters. Whatever.

I had a dungeon with a big weird rock and 4 control rods. The players could remove 2 safely-ish. 3 started to make things go wobbly and ominous. 4 resulted in a village-leveling explosion (with enough time to flee first).

Of course they took all 4. Loot, ya see. No need to make it complicated. If there's a big door that says "do not enter" but the player think there's loot inside, that door is getting smashed open.
>>
>>57380648
Do you want to keep the "dungeon aesthetic" or not? If you do, any regular system will work. Otherwise you can probably repurpose Stars Without Numbers or somesuch, it'd be more a matter of refluffing and cutting down some of the sci-fi stuff than anything
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I'm going to try to get some friends into tabletop RPGs using OSR and then hipster-ass storygames and skip out on the most mainstream stuff until they've seen that the alternatives are good too.

After running them through that introductory dungeon that someone (I think someone in this thread) made, what should I run for them first?

Was thinking B1 with the streamlined map (pic related) but am open to suggestions.
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>>57380648
https://www.docdroid.net/SFZ1VQ8/esoteric-enterprises-player-book.pdf#page=7

I am literally working on this system at this very minute. Here's a WiP pdf of what I've got so far.
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>>57380821
Whatever links naturally.
OSR doesn't mean that the world needs to employ video game logic. Dungeons don't have to be instances.

The players might have goals and plans once the intro dungeon is done. Go with that. Bolt on content. They want to get on a boat? They get on a boat? Loot another tomb? They follow rumours of tombs.
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>>57380821
>inb4 Skerples and his TotSK
Good lord, thanks for the map, I've been thinking about running B1, but the maps, well, you know how they are. I can recommend The Sanctuary Ruin and Ironwood Gorge. They're like an update version of KotB and have lots of places to stick in extensions with your own content (if you're into that sort of thing). Though, if you don't like humanoids, skip it, it's a bunch of goblins and then orcs in tunnels. Frankly, Bryce at tenfootpole has a category of reviews labeled "the best," I'd advise you go give it a looksee, find out if there's anything you like.

>>57380888
Do you want us to start editing that one too, or is it too unfinished currently?
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>>57380937
oh, this is still very early days. Like, there's no GM content.
Plus that pdf isn't where I am currently, I've changed a bunch of stuff since then. But it's good vaporware to get people hyped, you know?
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>>57380936
I'd planned to run them through one more, more challenging/extensive one and then open up the world. But that's fair, might just go for it.
>>57380937
I'll look into The Sanctuary Ruin and Ironwood Gorge. If they have their own keep-like areas that are a bit more extensive, I may skip the "introductory dungeon" entirely and make that the starting location.

Mostly I'm worried about players getting overwhelmed by choice, as they've literally never played a tabletop RPG before, ever.
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>>57381010
I also wouldn't get to far ahead. If you're using TotSK, it can take ages to properly feel like it's "done". You've got plenty of time to research and figure out next steps.
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>>57379871
Nope.

More specifically, the games I tend to be interested in I tend to be interested in for different reasons. I like OSR because it's gritty, quick to play and easy to learn, very modular and adaptable for weird houserules I might have, and very easy to make content for. I like 3.5 because I like building a character in that system with all of the options and the prestige classes. I like certain parts of WoD because of the implied setting and character rules, and it's focus on roleplaying that I haven't ever seen anywhere else. Though part of that was my groups. I like Exalted because I like the idea of playing a demigod, and Godbound doesn't really seem to fit very well for that niche in my opinion. That said, I'm not sure Exalted fits that well either, considering I have yet to figure out how to make a character that isn't grossly incompetent. I like GURPS because of the character building rules. I can make my character, well, weird. Not to mention that being extremely intelligent is a pretty huge benefit there just like in real life.

Most modern stuff tends to be weebtrash (PF, 5e), overpowered (4e, 5e, but really this is only a problem for D&D), storygame trash (AW and most other "rules-light" games), dissociated (4e), cringy (most modern WoD titles), or some other thing like that.

>>57379965
Are you talking about this? >>57376297
It's pretty useless to me. I have no need for crappy characters in a place I've never heard of and know nothing about. And I can count the number of times I've needed a "gang" on one hand and still have five fingers left over.

>>57380552
This is what we in the business call a "dungeon".
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>>57378514
Link to a post of that nature by >>57378514
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>>57381405
Look at his image. He is not quoting skerples, who has never replied like that to anything. The people who actually HAVE are the ones telling people filling the thread with shitposts about Skerples, of which he is one, to fuck off. That implies he believes it is Skerples replying to the shitposts.

I have seen an anon replying similarly in previous threads, but it would be stupid to claim I can magically discern who is who in an anonymous imageboard, and I don't want to go searching the archives for something this petty
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>>57379871
not really. The other games that do what osr does tend to be pretty old themselves. Traveller, for example.
I'm very into oWoD, but at 25+ years old it's hardly 'modern'. (nwod/cwod is crap).
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>>57381534
Shut the fuck up Skerples.
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Thoughts on this armor table for a middle-of-the-road OSR-ish homebrew?
I don't really like magic armor much, so I want the focus to be on getting better mundane armors.
Any armor I should add?
Any armor that is misplaced on the chart (i.e. should have higher or lower AC)?
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>>57381797
>ascending AC
>silver standard
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>>57381853
>silver standard
What's wrong with it, Ron Paul?
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>>57381869
>What's wrong with it
It lets you carry more gold, so it removes part of the challenge(?)

>Ron Paul
kek
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>>57381853
Explain what function descending AC serves, besides forcing bounded accuracy (and not even given the games with negative AC values).
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>>57381797
Why do you have multiple ACs or bonuses to AC that cost differently but are exactly the same? I can understand that there's a benefit to having a metal shield (won't catch on fire, less likely to break, etc) but why would you ever buy chainmail or brigandine if there's scale mail and studded leather. I do like what you did with the dex mods only applying to light armor. I feel like there might be an edge case where you have and 18 Dex and are getting 17 ac from scale mail, but then you put on chainmail and your ac actually goes down. Then again, that actually makes sense. Just thought I'd point it out.

>>57381890
Usually people adjust their xp tables when they shift around the monetary standards.
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>>57381797
Studded leather is dumb, and I personally like a simple, three-tiered armor system: leather, (chain or scale) mail, and plate (mail).

Also, does a -1 dex penalty vanish when you're wearing chain mail?
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>>57381797
>Any armor that is misplaced on the chart (i.e. should have higher or lower AC)?
It's all somewhat arbitrary. Different versions of the same type of armor are going to be heavier or provide more coverage than others. So it really just comes down to setting in your mind what the most common version of a particular armor looks like in your setting and providing a protection value for it that isn't wildly out of whack. Personally, I like the idea of just going for light, medium and heavy armors, with each level representing multiple types of armor (a cuirass / breastplate alone might only give you light armor).
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>>57381534
Sorry, by >>57378457
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>>57381973
It is dumb, but it's been in D&D so long I am loathe to remove it. I kinda like the three-tiered system too but it feels a bit too simple and lacking in variety. As for the dex penalty thing... see, it's not supposed to, but one of the few things I liked about 5e D&D was the way it formatted the armors, without adding a "maximum dex" rule. But the thing is, upon looking at the rules, I find nothing saying a dex penalty applies, in fact it even specifies: "Heavy armor doesn’t let you add your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class, but it also doesn’t penalize you if your Dexterity modifier is negative."

I just don't want an AD&D 1e situation, where my 18 Dex fighter had an Armor Class of 1 at 1st level, and had no good reason to use the lighter armors.
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>>57380648
I'd suggest just tweaking and reskinning as needed whichever regular OSR system you like best, for Guns and other modern weapons look up Fantastic Heroes & Witchery as it has some good rules for that sort of thing
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>>57379313
I do flesh/grit so healing to grit is immediate, healing to flesh happens when properly rested. Makes getting seriously hurt more of an issue and keeps slapping a bandage on a light wound more cinematic.
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>>57382079
>I kinda like the three-tiered system too but it feels a bit too simple and lacking in variety.
It was good enough for B/X. And really, many varieties of armor in AD&D don't get much play because they are strictly inferior to other things and/or most people don't really know what they are.

>But the thing is, upon looking at the rules, I find nothing saying a dex penalty applies
I'm not really up on my 5e, but to my understanding, attribute penalties are a lot rarer in that than in most OSR games. That's something to keep in mind. I'm not not necessarily adverse to limiting when Dex applies, or limiting the amount of Dex that applies (and do see the problem of piling a +3 bonus on top of plate armor) though. I'm just asking questions.

Oh, and terminology aside, plate mail makes more sense for your best armor than full plate does. Full plate should protect you much better than other types and ends up being frankly anachronistic.
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What are /osrg/'s thoughts on D&D 5e?
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>>57382327
It's okay for what it is, but it's not OSR.
Great Weapon Fighting and Sharpshooter feats break the damage flow.
It has bounded accuracy but not bounded damage.
Also class features are mostly boring. I'd rather play an OSR game that has no skills, but had a feats mechanic for PCs only.
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>>57382327
They're the same as they were last thread.
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>>57382327
Just thumbing through it, I thought it looked okay, but despite how everybody talks about how simple it is, I still found it significantly more involved than I wanted a gateway game like D&D (really THE gateway game) to be. Given that it's most people's first game, I was hoping it would be more like a modern B/X, even if "modern" meant that it was two or three times as complicated (when, in actuality, it's much more than that). But this opinion only comes from glancing over it. I guess I've reached a point where I tired of learning new editions and probably won't bother unless one wows me. It does, at least, seem like a decent (though not great) game for noobs, putting it ahead of its immediate predecessors.
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>>57382327
It's exceedingly dull and panders to the lowest common denominator. It's also too balanced and too focused on higher and higher damage and hit points.
>>
How do I get over the apprehension of letting my players run into SAVE OR DIE situations just because it feels "unfair"?
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>>57382270
I just wanted to avoid the 3.5 "max dex" rule if I could, but I now realize that if I want multiple types of armor that actually matter (to avoid those "many varieties of armor that don't get much play) I will need to give them different ceilings for Dex bonus that can apply. So brigandine has a niche of being cheap for 9-12 Dex warriors who just want a cheap way of nabbing 14 AC. But if you have higher dex you can spend a bit more to get armor that allows you to use that. But not so much more that you are better off buying the higher-tier armor.

Maybe this is a bit better? I see the value of B/X armor, and it was what was used for Searchers of the Unknown (a one-page OSR game I played a few times, that actually is what got me into OSR) if I recall, but I want this to have a bit more meat to it. I think these values are okay, I'll probably have to adjust it once I figure out the treasure XP to make a "soft" expectation of being 6th level by the time you get access to full plate.

I dunno, I watch Vikings and most of those guys are wearing leather armor. Then I look at D&D 3.5 where the average warrior NPC has easily enough starting gold for scale mail, and at 5e where the average guard has got breast plate, and it makes me want things to be a bit different. I guess that's my main motivation here.
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>>57382418
Run through some cheapo dungeons yourself, realize that character death isn't that big of a deal, and let them know they're probably going to get fucked the first runs.
>>
So, a while ago I was at Ye Olde Friendlye Locale Game Store and they had a copy of ACKS, so I paged through it a bit.

I'm considering buying it because I want to have good rules for domain level play, and I have some money burning a hole in my pocket. But it seemed a bit weird to me. It didn't seem to have an index or a table of contents for one. Is that standard for ACKS? Also, it was paperback I think whereas drivethrurpg only has hardcover. Was there a paperback print run at some point or something?
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>>57382418
SoD is kinda stupid and should be rare. Hit Dice limits are a good mitigating factor but are a bit arbitrary. Personally I think SoD should only be for magic, and maybe poison. Traps should do enough damage to kill you. None of this "axe from ceiling, save or die" nonsense. If my character dies from failing his save to dodge a falling axe and takes 2d10 damage and dies, I'll be much less salty than failing my save and just dying. Plus it reminds me of that story where a player almost fell in a pit trap, asked the GM what would happen if he'd fallen on a spike, the GM said "instant death" and the player picked up the spike and used it for the rest of the adventure.
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>>57382478
No, that's not standard, even the pdf in the trove has an index and table of contents.
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>>57382367
>Great Weapon Fighting and Sharpshooter feats break the damage flow.
It's what makes martials viable

that's what a 5eg autist would say

>>57382417
>It's also too balanced
How's that a bad thing?
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>>57382418
Let them die a few times.
https://youtu.be/WWQXzGTzM1g?t=60

It's like a video game, in a way. Sometimes you die because of skill. Sometimes it's luck. So it goes.
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>>57382577
>Sometimes it's luck.
That's dumb though
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>>57382539
Balance is a good thing, hell, for all people cry about balance, looking carefully at old d&d betrays extreme balance. The variable hit dice, weapon and armor restrictions, and variable xp requirements. But if you're balancing it too much, then there's very little difference between the options and choices feel meaningless.
I don't know if this actually applies to 5e, just that this is what "overly balanced" looks like.
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>>57382585
I suppose it depends on the game.

If you drink a potion you concocted from abotleth eyeball juice, powdered magic gems, and vampire dust... should it
a) have a 100% chance of killing you
b) have a 100 chance of doing something neat
or c) have some chance of either one?

Because c) is luck. Combat is luck. Sure, not fighting is important, but sometimes you need to roll the dice, and sometimes luck does not favour you. So it goes.
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>>57382627
Players have control in your exemple, they can choose to drink or not the potion
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>>57382418
I'd borrow a mechanic from Dark Sun/Dungeon Crawl Classics: Multiple player characters

In specific, have every player make three or four characters. These characters have the same alignment and share a level. When dungeon delving, each player takes one in. That way, failure on save or die is logical, not failure.
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>>57381547
How does one run a successful oWoD game?

https://youtu.be/VPd-MSr19qI

Especially if one may be interested in the gritty, supernatural & urban setting but finds a lot of the metafiction cheesy as hell.
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>>57382539
God I'm glad to read that spoiler text because you triggered the hell out of me. I don't even have an issue with "making martials viable" but it's always aimed at power-attacking muscleheads, they don't care if TWF or sword-and-board is viable. Removing damage reductions and power attack (which is basically what GWF is) and reducing HP bloat, you don't have to worry about it as much.
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>>57381332
>AW
I don't get the dissing on AW. It's not OSR at all but it's one of the few competently written narrative systems out there. The rules are actually manufactured to create character drama. PbtA is what most people actually hate, because the rip-offs are dull and uninspired. I mean, I hate storygames too.... except for AW, because it actually had mechanics compelling enough to make all the trade-offs of a narrative game worth it for me.
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>>57382435
>I think these values are okay, I'll probably have to adjust it once I figure out the treasure XP to make a "soft" expectation of being 6th level by the time you get access to full plate.
Leaving aside full plate in specific for the moment, I think it's a bit tricky to have the cost of armor scale that way in a high (magic) fantasy setting where getting treasure is the focus of the game. Because what it's saying is that every bit of treasure you (personally) gather before (say) level 4 or 5 isn't worth a suit of splint mail or half plate, or whatever. Ignoring the fact that you'll probably be battling enemies that you can salvage some armors for, that would still seem to severely limit the sort of treasure you can find. Because if you're finding silver coffers, ruby amulets, gold chalices, and jade idols, it seems like you're going to be able to afford good armor. Of course, without a magic mart (or some way to buy expensive magic items), wealth in D&D quickly becomes over abundant, at least until you start looking at domains, but not every game goes into that sort of thing (and not every player is looking for it to). So you're dealing with a bit of a wonky system to begin with.

Anyway, I guess I'm okay with the variety of armors being more descriptive than mechanical (putting them into broad mechanical groups), but I can see why you'd find it cool to have there be a bit more (mechanical) play with them.
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>>57382577
I guess it'd be boring if every adventure could be summed as, "Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt."
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>>57383000
Honestly, you have to have some appreciation for the cheese to really enjoy oWoD. You have to like that "everyone's against us little shits, we stand against the MAN" mindset, you have to like the endless conspiracies and ancient mysteries. oWoD is as much a time as a place and it cannot help but feel weird in a post 9/11 world, but you have to play it with a measure of straightness to get the most out of it.
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>>57381332
>>57380749
Okay, okay, it's a dungeon. Anyway, I'm trying to think of themes that go along with meat. So far I've got slaughter houses, butchers, freezers, and blood. Anyone have any other themes that would be applicable to dungeons?
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>>57374626
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>>57383000
honest answer?
Larps and MUSHes. You need a big player base that aren't all on one team to get the politics and infighting and philosophical conflict that makes wod /good/. The setting is kinda wasted on the party of five who are all on the same side because they're PCs, you know?

But as a setting... well, there's enough different well-realised factions (with sub-factions within them) that if you put 30 or so players in a space and let them RP, they'll be doing political intrigues in no time.
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>>57380821
>There's an easier to understand map of Quasqueton's upper level
>I see this two days before running B1 for a group and have least keyed and prepped the original map for a virtual tabletop, and have basically learned the original inside and out

Son of a BITCH. Goddamnit.
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>>57383260
I'm sorry anon.
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>>57383000
Patrician taste in music you got there anon. I used to listen to that CD in the car with my dad all the time.
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>>57383125
Decay and pestilence. Might wanna take a look at Pathologic (russian video game about a meatpacking town that succumbs to plague) or Upton Sinclair's The Jungle (about the meatpacking industry)
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>>57383000
Depends on which. VtM which I'm most familiar with, it helps to have a good knowledge of the setting as well as creating each character from scratch and knowing their primary motivations and such. Not to mention having a good idea of what the "plot" would be --- in the sense of plot is what happens when the PCs do nothing. Probably that system works for CtL (which isn't oWoD, but most people I know consider it honorary oWoD) and... WtO maybe? Maybe MtAs? I've never played or read either so I don't know for sure.

Other oWoD systems require other things. I played in a WtA game which was quite good. Almost no major NPCs, though. Heck I can't even remember what was happening most of the time... I missed a lot of the sessions.

Also >>57383119 if you're playing WtA or MtAs.
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>>57383289
It's OK. What I ended up doing is ripping the map onto a GM only layer, tracing over all walls (secret doors are part of the wall, natch) on the actual map layer, and I plan to use Roll20's Fog of War reveal to represent the light from their torches or lanterns illuminating the darkness. That way they don't have to completely map Quasqueton based on my description alone, but the mapper can still draw up a map and take notes on the doors, traps, monsters, and treasure they find.

It's just, boy that map would have been nice to have earlier. Still would have used the same method for the map but it'd be less of a headache for me.
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>>57380821
>>57383260
It's a huge improvement, but I miss a lot of the weirdness. This one just feels like an array of 10' tiles.

Speaking of which: how do you guys describe caves to players?
>>
>read original west marches blog post series
>start reading about hexcrawl
>read 6 mile hex article, agree with all arguments
>make a complete practice hex map to get the hang of drawing it
>start making another one
>get really annoyed after just a little bit because I want this to be THE setting
>feel like stopping and starting over
>this is after staring at a blank page for 2 hours while watching eraserhead in the background
How do I stop this? Should I just charge ahead? I've made settings before but each time I get sick of the worldbuilding early on, or make some mistakes I want to correct later. Now that I know I want points-of-light fallen-empire hexcrawl where the edges of the map are blank and unknown and it's okay to make just a tiny bit of the world at first.... it should be easy to make a hexmap.

Also how do I decide where to put mountains? I know the "rivers should flow from mountains to the sea and never fork" rule, but is there a rule for how to place mountains in the first place? I know they are either glacial or tectonic but that doesn't really help me much.
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>>57370514
AD&D Coloring Book
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>>57383119
>>57383332
>>57383000
>>57381547
If nothing else, oWoD is a great source for fluff-mining. Ironically, the moral ambiguity and individuality (chaos) vs the status quo (law) makes in more philosophically compatible with TSR D&D than with WOTC D&D
>>
>>57383448
>playing on roll20
I'm even more sorry for you, anon. But hey it sounds like you set up something really cool, which is more than what I do. I'm just running a half-assed Pathfinder campaign on it right now for my one friend who can't make IRL sessions anymore. Something about the sitting at the computer and voices through headphones just.... ruins the roleplay experience for me. I don't know why.
>>
>>57383461
This. All of it. Except for Eraserhead (never got around to it...is it actually good?).

Also, from an OSR point of view, is West Marches not just a "no shit, that's a D&D hexcrawl" with some guidelines about players thrown in?
>>
>>57383461
Generate everything only as you need it.

If a river appears, put ocean on one side and mountains on the other. Other than that don't worry about where mountains are. If you want mountains, put mountains. No one's going to care about your setting not being perfectly realistic as long as the rivers go from mountains to oceans and never fork.
>>
>>57370514
Realms by DiTerlizzi if it counts.
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>>57383119
>it cannot help but feel weird in a post 9/11 world
What?
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>>57383460
You step into the cave. It is dark and damp. In the distance, you can hear water dripping, slowly. The torchlight extends into the cave, but does not illuminate the full extent of the space. You can see an underground pool, water turned milky white from minerals, that glistens in the torchlight. Stalagmites and stalactites stretch from the floor and ceiling and merge, forming massive pillars that seem to ripple in the corner of your eye. You feel a draft of cool air coming from the back of the cave and the pitter-patter of a small creature. What do you do?

And then massively cut down on the descriptions once they're investigating other chambers. Only describe the features immediately illuminated by torchlight. If the players want to spend a turn searching the room, then you can rattle off the room's approximate dimensions, number and location of exits, and any interesting features.
>>
Anyone have the Blueholme Journeyman rules that just came out? It's not in the trove.
>>
>>57383461
Draw a map, then turn it into a hex map.
Or just use an overlay.
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>>57383494
>Something about the sitting at the computer and voices through headphones just.... ruins the roleplay experience for me. I don't know why.

Kudos to >>57383448 for getting a mapper but it's hard to give a shit on Roll20. The DM has all these maps that show up on your screen so who cares. Plus it's a LOT more effort for the DM to prepare all this stuff.

Sit around a table where the DM has a map and you're drawing your own map, you get a lot more invested.
>>
>>57383588
That '90s atmosphere of big conspiracies privy to dark secrets that maintained the status quo hiding behind a veil of secrecy was present across a lot of media: RPGs like oWoD and Delta Green, shows like The X-Files and Millenium were part of the zeitgeist. I'm not saying that conspiracy theorizing died after 9/11, far from it, but the particular flavor of it changed permanently once a major foreign terrorist attack actually happened in US soil and everything that came after that.
>>
>>57383535
How bad of an idea is it to just have some locations on a piece of paper with distances marked out on roads, and then have random encounter tables marked off for certain types of regions, rather than extensively hexing and keying every 6 miles of the landscape?
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New GLOG wizard!

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2018/01/osr-spider-wizards.html

This one is properly weird. If you like spiders, this is the class for you. If you do not, it's definitely not for you.
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>>57383609
I meant for mapping purposes.
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>>57383696
Barrowmaze has a table like this, but at that point why not just draw a hex map?
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>>57383609
>>57383460

A good read is Veins of the Earth by Patrick Steward (not that one). It has great rules for darkness and such as well as many really really cool ideas. I have gone caving and I really liked it, but I always felt Dungeons and Caves should feel like seperate things and the way I traditionally ran caves was ultimately just re skinned dungeons. After reading Veins my players said to me that was one of the best sessions because it did not feel like a normal dungeon crawl like we are used to. Check it out, it's just a good read (it's for LoTFP though).
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>>57383494
Trust me, if I could I do it all face to face with these folks, I would in a heartbeat. But when all the people you want to game with are all over the dang country and even the world, you make do with what you have.
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>>57383461
I find a random spot on google earth, zoom out, turn it 45-90 degrees, and copy it down on hex paper, then I use dice to determine where the cities, towns, and lairs are.

Alternatively, I start with a two villages, a single town, and a handful of locales, and a list of names for other towns. Players aren't generally cartographers, and not knowing where the towns/villages/lairs are until they've been discovered is true to text anyways.
>>
>>57383736
Because hexes are fiddly? It also ties down everything and makes it harder to add to and revise in a way that's really frustrating for me.
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>>57383737
It doesn't really have any advice for describing distances and stuff for mapping, aside from "don't." It encouraged a more flowchart system of mapping.
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>>57383696
Not a bad idea at all. Hexes work for some reasons; pointcrawls for others. You do you, man.

>>57383712
I draw them, or use 3D clay models. Shameful, I know.

Most of the time, the vaguest maps will do. Exact layout isn't needed. Torches only illuminate 30'. Mapping takes time and materials that rarely survive long cavecrawls. Map by memory; big events, monsters, corpses.
>>
>>57383461
>>57383527

Kind of but it is more for like bigger groups. The blog is written with newer players in mind, 5e fags, so it's like "if you're new this is what a hexcrawl is" but it mostly concerns having 10+ players. I'm running one right now that is going well but with only 8 players.
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>>57383791
I don't think they're fiddly, they're pretty simple and abstract. Rather than write down a bunch of distances, you can just count some shapes and say the nearest town is about 18 miles away. Oh, and there are some ruins in between (if it matters).
>>
>>57383125
http://elfmaidsandoctopi.blogspot.com/2016/07/xor-revisionism-and-chaos.html
>>
If I'm having carrying capacity based off of a stat, should it be Constitution or Strength, realistically? Or by game balance reasons, if you think that strength gives too many advantages with to-hit and damage bonuses already, carrying capacity shouldn't be it. Also, do you think that having it based directly off of the stat (having inventory slots equal to Con for example) gives the stat too much weight and it should be something like "10 modified by stat?"

>>57383916
Thanks, not quite what I was looking for, my dungeon has meat /in/ it, rather than being made of meat, but useful nonetheless.
>>
>>57383737
Veins is very nice, love the mapping system they use. Great for underdark game
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>>57383957
>Or by game balance reasons, if you think that strength gives too many advantages with to-hit and damage bonuses already, carrying capacity shouldn't be it.
Constitution's pretty powerful too. If you start out with a 65% chance to hit with a d8 weapon, a +1 strength gives you a 31.6% increase in damage per round. If you have d6 hit dice, a +1 constitution yields you a 28.6% increase in hit points. The increase for strength is obviously more, and a class whose mainstay is dishing out melee damage is probably going to get more out of a high strength (even ignoring the fact that a higher hit dice means that getting +1 hit point means less, percentage-wise), but the boost you get for a high constitution applies to any attack you get hit with, not just melee ones, so classes that have other focuses may be better off with a with it. So if there's an imbalance between them, I think it's relatively small.

Anyway, D&D likes to tack encumbrance to strength, but really, it seems like a combination of strength and constitution make sense. You have to be strong enough to move the shit around, but have enough stamina to do it for an extended period of time. You could maybe just add your strength and constitution modifiers together to see how much you could carry?
>>
>>57383696
I make 8-12 random encounters for different geographic regions, put them on index cards and draw from them randomly when rolling an encounter in that area. We add it to the map as we go. When I feel like I'm running low on encounters I make some more.
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>>57381797
Studded leather is nonsense and a scale armor jack (they were rarely full-bodied) isn't as good as a chain shirt. In fact, a brigandine is basically the same thing as a scale shirt except there's an extra layer of leather fixing the plates in place, so really those two should be the ones that give the same AC and you can delete the studded leather.
>>
>>57381797
Should be Heavy Cloth (9), Leathers (8), Chain (6), Breastplate (5), Splint (4) and Plate (3) with Shield (-1). 2 AC is really good and it gives it room to get magical bonuses that don't fuck with the total scale.
>>
>>57383868
>The blog is written with newer players in mind, 5e fags
West Marches is old enough that it was written for threeaboos, anon.
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>>57384396
I find it super dubious that an aketon would be less protective than boiled leather, which isn't even very medieval in the first place. I suggest Aketon/Leathers (9), Aketon with jackchains (8) for the first two steps.
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>>57384698
It's more so that the magic-user in the party doesn't complain about not being able to wear dick all, so I've ruled that heavy cloth is a thing that gives the smallest AC adjustment. Shut my player up fast at least since they got something.

They never complained about their weapon choices being limited to dagger, cudgle/walking staff and sling though so who knows what they are thinking anyway.
>>
>>57384698
>>57385011

>not letting them use whatever weapons they want and limiting their damage to their HD
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>>57385087
Less fiddly to make it so they don't advance attack bonus/THAC0, or slow down their progression even more, which may be a more drastic a nerf, granted
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>>57385087
The B/X Companion does something similar. I've ran B/X with pic related and everyone loved it.
>>
Would it be a really major change to LotFP to let non-Fighters get an attack bonus at something like half their level, maybe with a maximum of 5? I get why it's there, but I have a VERY combat oriented group that I plan on introducing to OSR, and while I think LotFP is mostly the right system for the job, I'm not sure that they'll buy the "be a fighter or suck at fighting" reasoning
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>>57385011
>It's more so that the magic-user in the party doesn't complain
Bad precedent. The correct ruling is to laugh at him and suggest he play an Elf once he gets killed by a single lousy dart.

Seriously, I have no idea what goes on in the heads of players who make a choice freely and then complain about what they picked. When people bitch about rolling poorly at least I can understand it.
>>
>>57385425

I don't know that they do suck at fighting. The referee book says to cap AC at 18, so the toughest enemies and monsters will never be more than 18 AC, and generally everything you face will have less than that.
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>>57385425
First: This guy is right. >>57385503
LotFP doesn't or isn't meant to handle arbitrarily escalating AC.

Second: The more combat oriented your group is, the MORE crucial it is that you don't let them think they're still in 3e Kansas! Don't give them gibs to acclimatize them, they'll just never learn to play old-school and you'll be frustrated the entire game! DO NOT DO IT

Third: What do you mean, not buy it? If they're so dedicated to fighting they can play Fighters! They call the class that for a reason!

Fourth: Seriously, don't enable them. I am emphatically not fucking with you. Introducing them to OSR will backfire right up your ass the moment you start houseruling in their bad habits.
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>>57383527
Eraserhead is really really good if you're a 20-something male starting to think about fatherhood even though it's still a long ways off. Also if you like edgy shit, and art films. It's extremely weird but gets its point across.

>>57383680
Agreed. Although I personally don't mind the DM drawing a map for me. Cause alot of the time the challenge of drawing your own map just turns into frustration at the DM because I know that I can draw my own map if I was a real person actually there seeing the place, but going off the description... it's fun, I've done it, but after a while it wears on me.

>>57383785
Yeah fair. It's sad cause roll20 is really really good. The features it has are really excellent. But... I just can't get that into it. Maybe it's cause I'm the one DMing and I'm half-assing it cause I'm running 2 IRL campaigns in addition to that one.
>>
>>57384354
good info, I'll try to incorporate it. I'll be honest no matter what you guys say I'll probably keep the studded but you've given me food for thought.

>>57384396
So delete scale and reorder them?
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So I see this thread constantly on /tg/ and I know what OSR means and all but what do you guys talk about all the time? I can't believe how many threads you burn through.
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>>57366084
New games are what to turn to for this stuff. Blades in the Dark and Apocalypse World handle gangs in a pretty elegant way
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>>57385852
We talk about OSR stuff, dungeons, classes, systems, ideas for gms... Just like a 5e thread but not about a shit game
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>>57385852
We also generate content. Homebrew isn't a dirty word in the scene.
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>>57385852
Blog posts, eons-old rule discussions, the differences between the available systems, published adventures and materials, houserules and sometimes just being dead. I mean, there is a fair bit of circlejerking over 70s/80s shit but the main reason the thread survives as a constant general is everything else
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>>57385871
>Just like a 5e thread but not about a shit game

And not about "muh builds." My build is my guy's a fighter. Whooo!
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>>57385995
>My build is my guy's a fighter
What weapons are you specializing in? Which kit do you plan to take?
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>>57386055
I suspect whatever he finds, and whatever stuff he loots. Can't really pre-plan.

Find a hammer that shoots fire? Cool. Hammer-fighter.
Find a paired of sword, one that kills ghosts and the other that kills demons? Sell 'em. Or become a two-weapon fighter sometimes.

As any self-defense course will teach you, kung-fu is handy, but if you've got a lead pipe it's time to learn pipe-fu. Fight with the best tools you've got.
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>>57386055
Those are rules associated with systems that most of the thread doesn't use precisely to avoid "builds"
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>>57386055
I'm playing a Half-Demon Drow BattleMage/Sword Sorcerer multiclass with a dip in Gun Warlock.

You DON'T want to mess with me.
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>>57386184
I really want to run a 3.5/4E game one day where everyone has to come with the silliest characters possible using the maximum number of conflicting templates. No optimization. Just nonsense.
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>>57386055

>What weapons are you specializing in?

Well I bought a short sword, but that's 'cause it was the best thing I could afford, otherwise I just do what >>57386126 said.

>Which kit do you plan to take?

No such thing! This is B/X, baby.
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>>57386184
>I'm playing a Half-Demon Drow BattleMage/Sword Sorcerer multiclass with a dip in Gun Warlock
You can't dip as a demi-human, anon
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>The thing is, you have a right not to publish me, obviously. It's a stupid choice on your part, because my work is better than anything the three you named have ever done
Holy shit, I don’t want to go all e-celeb on the thread, but that’s an incredible sentence to type. Who is this K. Urbanski?
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>>57383699
What's the niche? I genuinely can't see a use for these guys besides jumpscares and party tricks.

The first emblem spell also seems significantly worse than the first Animist cantrip, which is odd.
Maybe if it didn't only target you?
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>>57386320
It's a silly class. I plotted out the core niches for the 10 core Wizard classes, but one player asked if there "were spider wizards that made you barf spiders". So...

And oh yeah, the Animists get all the goodies. The spider transform does let you get through locks, scout completely secretly, cast spells on people without them ever knowing, etc. Go in through a window, cast "Dominate" (that you found in the dungeon) on someone, etc.
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>>57385852
Some say the "R" stands for "Revival". Others claim it is "Renaissance". I wonder... which of them is right?
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>>57386560
It's clearly Reversecowgirl.
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>>57386560

Doesn't matter, it was just a euphemism for TSR, really.
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>>57382327
It should stay in its own general, famalam.
>>
I know that systems like 5e are much more focused on the characters and a narrative, but is there a way to do that in osr such as B/X or AD&D?
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>>57387062
A common workaround to dampen OSR lethality is to start characters at level 3. Maybe switch to a gentler chargen method like 4d6 drop lowest. Save-or-die is the fucking bane of narrative games in many cases, so maybe switch to a single-save system and replace any effects which use save vs. death. The rest pretty much comes up to how the game is run.

Also, as a personal preference, I'd use race-and-class in a more story focused game, to give players more agency.
>>
Hey guys i have a question about what i guess is properly called Zero Edition. (I always called it OG dnd). I made a thread asking about it but a fellow anon suggested i ask here so here we go.

Ok /tg/ i found pic realted at a used book store. I thought it was a reprint 1e. I get home and it turns out its a reprint of original Dungeons & Dragons. I've only heard of this shit in myth and legend so i was wondering how hard it is to run/learn? I was thinking of running it with my group to show them what the game was like back then since they all started with 4e and i with 2nd advanced.
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>>57387875
Just follow the goddamn instructions in the pamphlets. It's dated and some of the rules will show that but it's fun and not as hard as some other games. Just be sure to thoroughly read each pamphlet, okay?

Also, you're a lucky bastard finding it. I wanted it but couldn't afford it at the time.
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>>57388044
Thanks for the reply. I realy dont want it to collect dust so im hell bent on learning it. Also know I'm a lucky cunt since i not only found one but i found it for 32 fucking dollars complete like it was brand fucking new. I thought i was in a dream or having a stroke.
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>>57388337
You really are a lucky bastard.
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>>57365743
>Thieves. How would YOU have implemented the concept, you goddamned know-it-all?

Exactly the way they worked in 0e.

The only problem was hit points, but if you go with the standard rules (roll for HP at level 1), you end up playing 4 HP fighters and shit.

The real problem with thieves was idiots thinking fighting is just about picking up a sword and swinging it, so everyone should be able to do it almost as well as fighters.

As long as your thief character stays in character, there's no problem.
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>>57387875
>>57388044
>>57388337


Good find for a collector's item. If you just want the books, you can get the .pdfs from DriveThroughRPG.

About 0e itself - it's old and it shows. The rules are written by players for themselves, so not everything is explained properly, and formatting is abysmal.

There are also systems in place that are totally insane - like rolling for hit points at level one (enjoy playing a fighter with 2 HP), or "balancing" non-humans by not allowing them to advance beyond certain level (that stuck around till 2e AD&D) which is either irrelevant, or retarded (though the impact on your character's ability to function, besides missing out on a bunch of HP is minimal, because stats progress in "steps", so a level 4 fighter can hit stuff nearly as well as a level 9).

Here's Greyharp's edited "single volume" version of the original game (0e books 1-3), reformatted and cleaned up.

The supplements added Thieves, Paladins (supplement 1), Monks, and Assassins (supplement 2), Druids, and psionic abilities (supplement 3), so you should read those, and then you can go make an oldschool setting to play in.


Personally, my biggest gripe with D&D-style rules is that for all the charts (attack matrix, attack bonus by weapon type versus given armor class, damage by weapon type, additional attacks by dexterity and equipment) it's still very simplistic, and the only factor in hitting the target is attacker's level, and defender's AC (optionally attacker's weapon type as well). Even if you added more charts to account for the difference in attacker's weapon type versus defender's weapon type, and another one for armor, it still plays like ping pong - clearly the people who wrote it had no idea how swordfighting actually works, but I guess it's part of the charm.
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>>57387875
Shit man, nice find!

>Hey guys i have a question about what i guess is properly called Zero Edition
Nah, it's usually called OD&D. "Zero Edition" doesn't make any sense.

>how hard it is to run/learn?
It's kinda hard as fuck to learn because the rules are notoriously underwritten, but the essential system is actually tight as shit and it's a blast to run once you get a handle on it. I'd skip the supplements until you understand the basics well enough, though, they change the game a lot and push it toward a more AD&D feel.

The great pleasure of OD&D with just the basic books (and ideally Chainmail) is that it's super fucking easy and also pretty much necessary to homebrew for; the distance between just making shit up and using it in your game is shorter than in any other game I know of. If you're dedicated to learning and running it, start reading and come back to ask questions about all the parts you don't understand -- it'll be many, and most of the answers you'll get will most likely be about different possible interpretations.

>>57388852
Where the fuck did you come from? You're not a regular of this general at any rate.
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>>57385912
This is my favourite thing about the scene. Even if you aren't running an OSR game, you can still mine the blogs for strange and wonderful ideas.
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>>57389544
>Where the fuck did you come from?

I came from teh internets.
>>
>>57388852
Here is the correctly sized and bookmarked version of that pdf
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>>57390001
thanks, although I have the 0d&d .pdfs, so I don't really need a single volume edition. Though to be fair, Greyharp made his edit before WotC released the 0e collector's edition and .pdfs.
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>>57367696
>Some encounters will be with the terrain. Some might speed you up...
Ah, I see.

It really can be slippery trying to game-ify travel through a 3-dimensional volume via discreet (dare I say "written in stone") passages when coming from the ideas of overland travel, of moving across a plane via a basically infinite number of possible routes.

There is just so much less space, so drastically fewer places-to-be options in a cave system compared to a surface wilderness that the same time/effort/resources/danger equations don't quite apply, I think? Thus your "nebulous superposition" concept I suppose? (And in a place with intelligent inhabitants in numbers big enough to have cities, how much of that tiny world is really wilderness? Little-known at first to outsiders, sure, but for how long once they start interacting?)

Have you hit players with this yet? Want to hear how it goes at the table.
>>
How many rounds does an OSR encounter typically take? From what I've seen combat in 5e lasts A LOT longer than in OD&D, for example
>>
I find about 2 or 3. But a round takes not very long, really. Like a big fight takes five to ten minutes max.
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>>57390504
Yeah, I figured. For my group this might be the largest, most noticeable difference with modern rule sets when I'll introduce them to OSR style play. With 5e, we have had sessions that were 90% combat...
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>>57390075
Well, Greyharp did reorganize stuff in the B/X way (just compare the tables of contents): this makes it much easier to reference
>>
>>57388852
>>57390001

It's been brought up here before, but I just wanna point out again that Greyharp's SVU is missing a number of tables and other bits.
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>>57391786
IIRC the big one is that it's completely missing encounter tables?

Also, of course, having the basic monster stats in a single table is weirdly handy (even if you're missing some of the specifics).

>>57390188
I've seen some fights go for five+ rounds due to massive amounts of whiffing (a bunch of hirelings vs. a bunch o goblins, bad THAC0 and half-decent armor on both sides), but even then it took... maybe ten minutes at most? It was just a bunch of die rolls.

If I ever get around to playing OD&D primarily with Chainmail mass combat rules that's probably going to go even faster. Especially since I have more d6s than I have d20s.
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I'm trying to make a new game that mimics the feeling of older games, with a more heavyset emphasis on the narrative and adventure side than it has on "builds" without sacrificing mechanical depth and choice.

What would you say are the most prominent features of OSR games, the ones that make them stand out over newer games? Alternatively, what are the things innate to newer games that make you avoid them?
>>
Okay /osr/, hear me out. How bad of an idea would it be to tell the players they only get XP from treasure, but secretly award XP for defeating monsters? If they don't get any treasure in a session, I just hold back until they get it and then dump it on them. They're newbies, so it's not like they know how the XP system works, not that they're paying attention anyway.

>>57391963
So something like Dungeon World but without all the bullshit that comes from forcing D&D and Apocalypse World together?

Anyway, to answer your question: rules that drive players towards a Farfhd and the Gray Mouser lifestyle, acquire loot, spend it, lose it, go out to acquire more loot. Rules that make combat dangerous if you're being stupid and unprepared.

It sounds like you're trying to create the holy grail of RPGs, so...good luck I guess? You're trying to put together a bunch of concepts whose mechanics tend to compete with each other until one of them stands victorious among a pile of useless appendices and revisions. That said, I'm interested in seeing what you come up with. Keep us updated!
>>
What makes 2e so good, and how would you say it compares to B/X and AD&D? Was it primarily the class kits?

Guy who never played 2e btw, I just often see it in higher regards even to 1e!
>>
I need inspiration for cool takes on humanoid and goblinoid monsters, please. In terms of culture, mindset, etc.

For example: My kobolds are actually pretty reasonable if you don't try to force your way through their territory. They're a bit skittish about outsiders because they tend to live in proximity to goblins and other nasty folks, but if you speak their language and are kind to them, they warm up pretty quickly and could easily become not only allies, but friends.

Then again, if none of the player characters bother trying to communicate with them, and if they just see a bunch of little monsters guarding treasure, well, then, the traditional kobold pollicy of "death traps first, ask questions never" is in full effect.

On the other hand, goblins are sadistic little shits who will kidnap children then spy on the families just to watch them mourn.
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>>57390564
Honestly the combat is one of the selling points of OSR style d&d. Chuck a couple of d20's, describe some sweet moves, fall into the mud, cry when you die to a kobold, all in a couple of minutes.
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>>57391963
Check out Torchbearer, it sounds somewhat like what you're after. It's even in the Trove in the storygames folder.
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>>57388852
Are you saying you don’t roll for HP at level one? Ever?
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>>57393087
I know I do when I'm running OSR stuff (fuckers in 5e are fine). The only exception is if the point is a comedy game where the players are gonna die by the handful every encounter.

I make up for it by making the players reroll their health and picking the higher every level to stop HP bloat
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>>57388852
>so a level 4 fighter can hit stuff nearly as well as a level 9).
+3 to hit is minimal? (Or fighting literally twice as well, in the case of Chainmail combat?)

Bounded accuracy didn't start with 5E, brosef, they just defined a pre-existing thing.
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>>57391786
>It's been brought up here before, but I just wanna point out again that Greyharp's SVU is missing a number of tables and other bits.
wonder why he never fixed that(maybe we need to do our own version that fixes that)?
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>>57393587
it's still one "step" away, so going by the standard rules, the difference in to hit values between a level 4 and a level 9 fighter is the same as the difference between a level 6 and a level 7.
The major difference for the d&d combat rules are extra hit points (i don't use chainmail, and most of the time I just run my own combat rules).
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>>57393905
I don't think the actual source is accessible
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>>57392122
Think of one thing that the race just can't understand as a concept. For example, dwarves don't understand charity toward strangers, elves don't understand modesty, etc. In canon sources, thri-kreen think sleep is just a bad habit cultivated by laziness.

>>57392048
Kits are a very mixed bag.
Personally, I'd say 2e's highlights are
>very good monster entry format, everything you need to know in 1-2 pages
>treats gods as gods instead of super-tough punching bags like OD&D and 1e
>the best variety of clerics
>the psionics systems
>a shitload of settings for almost every taste
>more official content than any other edition
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>>57394287
what do you mean by "actual source"?
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Lucky cunt who found OD&D for 32 bucks here again. Thanks for all the responses and support. I was wondering what combat should i use and why? Chainmail or the one in the Greyhawk pamphlet?
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>>57394346
How would you say the rules are? Better organized 1e pretty much?
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>>57394620
Yes, although the DMG loses a lot of charm the 1e DMG had.
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>>57394564
The source used to compile the pdf, i.e. the LaTeX files, in order to properly recompile a more complete version
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>>57394593
Chainmail with the first three books (no supplements) is the most different from later editions - not to mention how Chainmail doesn't actually have a combat system. It just has a port of the Chainmail weapon vs. AC tables, variable weapon dice, etc.

Either way you'll probably just be using the Men & Magic Alternative Combat System tables to hit dudes while using Chainmail initiative (unless you really feel like deciphering Eldritch Wizardry initiative, which still only covers spells and ranged weapons).
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>>57394812
>Chainmail doesn't actually have a combat system
Greyhawk. Greyhawk doesn't have a combat system.

God, I need a drink.
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>>57392122
If you’re asking how other people do it:

Goblins are diminutive feline cavemen that have only recently developed the use of tools. They basically just want food and territory. They can’t really be bribed, but they are easily distracted.

Hobgoblins are cave-dwelling bug creatures trying to turn the planet into another star as they first came from. While capable of engineering and tactics nearly on the level of humans, they lack abductive reasoning or any long term individual motives besides some innate instincts as members of the hive. Bright light fascinates them; on the other hand, they have comparatively little use for money, but find bone quite valuable as it is the most plentiful raw material for the plaster they build hives with. They and goblins get their names from an old word for “cave dweller”.

Kobolds, despite being short, wingless lizard people, view themselves as rightful heirs of the dragon master race, and some dragons find it useful to encourage this belief. They keep extensive genealogical records on their relationship with their ancestors and seldom turn down a chance to expand the collection; just as useful if not moreso is coinage and swag to win the patronage of an actual dragon. They can and do live nearly anywhere, but prefer headquartering in locations with a lot of small spaces and bottlenecks; they absolutely won’t engage directly without a major advantage and prefer to let traps whittle down intruders for them.

Orcs just want to rescue their lost king from the underworld and destroy the inferior civilizations that have been built over the old utopian kingdom. This doesn’t have to mean killing people, but the way people usually take having their house burned down or their castle demolished, it usually becomes necessary and most just skip all the diplomacy noise. They do not build permanent structures in anticipation of the orc king restoring the old way, preferring temporary fortifications.
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>>57394812
So use men and magic combat with chainmail intiative? Grey hawk weapon table worth anything?
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>>57394902

well it's basically a table for "weapon type versus armor type" (as AC is loosely associated with armor type), and there's a different set of modifiers versus certain armor types if the target is prone and dismounted, but it still boils down to: defender's AC versus attacker's level (base) modified by attacker's weapon type, then roll damage for weapon type (different value for large targets).

Without the greyhawk table, combat is just AC vs attacker level, 1d6 damage.
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>>57394902
I recommend sticking to just the first three books (+Chainmail) to begin with, at least - it's a very solid and contained game, but once you start adding all the variant rules in the supplements shit gets a bit whack.

Just for starters, notice how in the LBBs (Little Brown Books) the most effecive AC you can get from magic armor is 0 (with magic shields occasionally pushing that down to -1, and Displacer Cloaks adding another small modifier) - in Greyhawk, however, shields stack with armor so AC-7 is entirely possible.
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Specializing in a polearm seems like the worst idea in 2e, there's so many different types and you will never find a magic version of the one you specialized
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>>57395210
>you will never find a magic version of the one you specialized

Only if you have a shitty DM
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>>57395885
NAYRT but I think he means that you'll never one one using the loot tables. Of course you'll find one if the GM hand-places one. but at least for me part of the appeal of OSR is not having to work around the player's "builds" like that.
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>>57392048
>What makes 2e so good
Nothing. Only some nostalgic speglords keep JIDFing it.

>and how would you say it compares to B/X and AD&D?
Badly, to both. There's no difference between 1E and 2E where 2E comes out as the better; as for B/X it's cleaner, easier and less annoying in every way.
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>>57396115
>JIDFing
chill out, /pol/
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>>57394593
The Alternative Combat System (which is expanded in Greyhawk) is easier to understand but less fun, less realistic, and less seamless with wargaming. I'd use Chainmail if you can be bothered to untangle it at all, and understand when the three different resolution methods should be used.
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>>57396155
It's just a joking term, anon. I'm not even against Israel, let alone Jews.
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Where do your Orcs come from? And why do the humanoid races have a good trade relationship with the Orc homeland?
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>>57392048
Better layout, better art, Kits, Weapon Proficiency System, fixed Rangers, Thief customization, Cleric Spheres...

It's better than 1e in almost every way, it just initially lacked some of the options like Half-Orcs and Assassins
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>>57396245
Does the theater-of-the-mind set up work well with Chainmail combat?
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>>57396794
Well enough. Figures are considered to be in melee range if they're within 3", which is reflected in the OD&D surprise rules. At the typical scales of dungeon rooms and corridors, facing isn't even that relevant.
Just figure out who's on the front line and who's standing behind.

You might need some kind of markers to keep track of distance in corridors for chases, but you could also just do that by keeping track on your dungeon map.

Really, though, what you really want from Chainmail is the mass combat rules and initiative system, both of which are absent from OD&D (on account of the ACS mostly just being generalized replacement tables for man-to-man/fantastic combat).
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>>57396494
Orc civilization spreads all over the continent. The two most powerful nations are orc-majority places, and their elite dialects are used as the lingua franca in noble and diplomatic circles all over. But they are in the decline: their nations used to be larger and have much larger influence and colonial holdings, before the last major war came and shook the entire political landscape in an irreversible way. Other nations keep good relations with the orcs because they're still wealthy and influential, but there's a growing sense that their time as the pinnacle of the civilized races is done. Not that the orcs are willing to admit it, of course.

(These orcs are basically late '40s British Empire with a healthy dose of Babylon 5's Centauri, amazing hair included.)
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Do you guys use geographic maps for your campaigns? I have loose ideas and areas but can't ever draw them on a map the way I envision them. I'm tempted to just say forget it and describe locations to my players in vague terms and tell them not to sweat it.
>Far to the north
>In the western desert
>Follow the river until you reach the swamp
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>>57396494

Orcs are underworld humans. Everything in the underworld is a twisted, wrong, and reversed evil version of how it is in the surface world.

Underworld dogs are the opposite and wrong version of real dogs; backstabbing, cowardly, cruel. In the same way, underworld humans are orcs.

Instead of ruling with nobility and grace as the human kings do, orcs rule with fear and strength. Instead of valuing peace and fighting in war only when called to do it, orcs constantly want to war and they live in fear of being "drafted" to have families.
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>>57397822
Maybe you could use an hexcrawl?
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>>57398191
That's my problem, every time I try to make one, I am never happy with the result. I want to run a Central Asia / Silk Road-inspired game which makes the game area vast (but long-distance travel is a way of life).
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>>57398292
Have you considered a pointcrawl? It's pretty much like you described - you write out a bunch of locations of interest and then draw lines connecting them (possibly with travel times, encounters etc. written on them).
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>>57390171
>It really can be slippery trying to game-ify travel through a 3-dimensional volume via discreet (dare I say "written in stone") passages when coming from the ideas of overland travel, of moving across a plane via a basically infinite number of possible routes.
Exactly, which is why about 4 pages of the 'crawl will be breaking down assumptions.

>>57390188
2-3, max 10.
>>57392041
>, but secretly award XP for defeating monsters?
You want to do the math and keep track of it?
Sure.
I am a lazy bastard and I don't want to do math, so it's gold=treasure. No secrets either.

You could make defeating certain monsters give cool bonuses though. Like if you defeat a dragon, you get a +2 to Save against Fear forever, or something neat and mythic like being able to eat fire to survive.
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>>57395210
Pro tip: any weapon tied to a pole is a polearm.
Also, weapon specialties? This is why they are silly.
>>57396494
I don't have orcs, but if I did, I'd use these guys: http://throneofsalt.blogspot.ca/2017/10/orca.html
Except more horrible and wonderful.

Side note: the Haida should really be used more in games. So much good stuff. Badass pre-ice-age to modern viking empire with no metal.
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>>57391963
Another system to check out is Shadow of the Demon Lord, which in many aspects is 5e except competently written. It's, at the same time, much lighter than 5e while also allowing more character customization

It's similar to LotFP in that it assumes you're playing in a grimdark OW THE EDGE setting, but that actually has little bearing on the mechanics
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>>57396494
At the beginning of history when the ancestors of men were savages living in caves, the tree of humanity split between two brothers. One brother stayed above ground and his descendants learned how to be creative, empathetic and civilized. These became men. The other brother fled into the depths of the earth. In the darkness his descendants became stupid, brutal and cruel. They hate the sun and worship demons. These are orcs.
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Hey folks! Which retroclones make good use of the man-to-man table instead of the alternative combat system?
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>>57399497
>Pro tip: any weapon tied to a pole is a polearm.
The problem is that you don't specialize in polearms (much like you don't specialize in "all swords") - you specialize in the Bohemian Earspoon, and then if you find a +1 Glaive-Guisarme you're out of luck.

To be honest, I feel like weapon specialities are better off not stacking with magical weapons - that way you don't get the constant need to stick to one weapon, and just have it so that you can always rely on one type of weapon being on-par. Then again, that means that if you get a bunch of +2 Halberds your +2 specialization in Halberds is kind of dead weight. (Then again, at that point you could sell them or hand them to hirelings or whatever and therefore increase in power overall.)
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>>57396494
Here's a good blog post on orcs:
http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2016/10/tolkien-orc-barbarian-savage-and-sun.html

Excerpt:
>There is something very teenage about that rejection of "your father's orc". In actual fact, of course, the Tolkien/Warhammer understanding of orcs is far deeper and richer. The notion of a sort of looking-glass creature which exists not only in opposition to us but to oppose us, and which intends to appropriate our power, wealth and prosperity in order to destroy us, is extremely interesting. A looking-glass creature, or a product of the shadows as we are a product of the light.
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>>57399827
Honestly, orcs as the opposite of everything that's light and good is already overdone to a greater extent than 'teenage rejection' of the stereotype. I have no idea what the article is saying regarding Warhammer when one of the core setting traits across GW games is that orcs (or orks, or orruks) are completely unable to do anything other than war against others and against themselves - a complete people whose entire biology and culture exists solely for violence. "Good guy" orcs were popularized by World of Warcraft, and even then they are part of the Horde, a name that evokes savage raiders battering themselves against the walls that protect civilized territory.

I just don't see what's "extremely interesting" about a designated bad guy race. It can be an useful concept because sometimes you just gotta beat some heads in, but worthy of such lofty words?
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>>57400062
>soyboys cry racism
>grog offers a counterpoint
>REEEE WHY IS HE USING LOFTY WORDS
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>>57400090
Hey, /pol/posting is my schtick, don't steal it.
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>>57399591
What if you could specialize in all swords, or all knives/daggers, axes, pole arms, bows, etc... Or does that make the fighter too strong?
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>>57400062
>Honestly, orcs as the opposite of everything that's light and good is already overdone to a greater extent than 'teenage rejection' of the stereotype
Maybe decades ago in derivative genre fiction that has been long since forgotten, but now? I only see it when people are deliberately homaging Tolkien by playing his tropes 100% straight, or in the rare case of a writer that's simultaneously invested enough in fantasy to make a book, yet so sheltered from the currents of the last few decades that they don't know it's supposed to be a tired cliche.

Well, that and hentai doujins but that's besides the point.
>I have no idea what the article is saying regarding Warhammer
It's agreeing with you. That's why he says "warhammer/tolkien".
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>>57400147

It didn't make him too strong in OD&D/Basic, where he could use all weapons with equal skill.
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>>57399560
I don't know that any exist. Platemail, maybe?
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>>57400193
>Well, that and hentai doujins but that's besides the point.
Hey, the porc is good and strong and your friend.
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>>57400062
A designated bad guy race can easily be more interesting that the noble savage meme, which I have honestly never seen done interestingly. It's just a broader and more evocative concept, albeit to see the appeal nowadays it's more useful to shed the "orc" name rather than actively fighting the player's preconceptions about the race.

Same reasoning behind people loving the aesthetic in VotE so much despite it being a hipster meme version of the Underdark. The strength of the initial concept was eroded by pop culture appropiating it until we ended up with a buddy cop movie about Will Smith and his orc pal. Tolkien's orcs were almost demonic - anachronistic modernity and industrialism in a world of poetic beauty, styled after european folklore and mytholgy.
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>>57400418
It should be mentioned that Tolkien orcs were a product of their environment: their brutality was an artifact of their British industrial upbringing (the one Tolkien loathed, the one he saw on poor people working their ass off at their factories and then going off to drown their sorrows at the pub) than anything else. He was a Catholic, unredeemable creatures were not his thing, and I think one of the letters actually brings up how he wished he left a way out for orcs.

In the end I'm not really interested in orc noble savages (you need a bit of Howard to make that particular bag work, and that means making the civilized world treacherous and unseemly), but I do want to see more done with them than just that or semisentient bags of loot out to plunder and raid.
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>>57399399
Okay, this is something that's interested me, I'm going to assume you're Skerples. I know the GLoG has a bunch of weird ass shit in it, but fear ain't one of them (except in the wizard spells). How exactly does that work? Making hirelings save against fear or make a morale check (which is what I always translated your save vs fears to) when confronted with a scary thing, makes sense. But applying that effect to players? Outside of a spell that a spooky wizard casts? That reeks of robbing players of agency. "Dragon shows up, make your saving throw! Oof, you failed, now you have to run and hide." Isn't the whole point of OSR and morale systems that PCs are either brave or deranged (or both) because they're controlled by the players, not the GM?
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>>57400623
>>57400623
>>57400623
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>>57400528
The main reason for orcs being "irredeemable" in the published Middle-Earth stuff is that they are corrupted elves, meaning their souls are bound to the world and that they have a more-or-less inescapable fate awaiting them until the second Music of the Ainur. That does make a fair bit more sense thematically if you want to make them a downright "bad guy race", but it's an explanation Tolkien was never satisfied with.

The really, really "original" version said they were made out of "subterranean heat and slime" (hey this could go in VotE) by Morgoth, but that conflicted with another of the setting's themes, that capital E Evil, which was the remaints of Melkor's rebellion resounding through the music of the Ainur, was incapable of true creation.
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>>57396494
They were grown in bio-vats by the US government before the apocalypse. O.R.C: Ordinance/Response Commandos.

They're neither good or bad and tend to become feral unless conditioned otherwise when they're found and released. Basically they are Fallout Supermutants.
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>>57384197
Strength should affect your carrying capacity, Constitution should affect your overland march speed imo.
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>>57385425
Honestly, if you give the accumulating attack bonus to other classes in any amount, you NEED to give the fighter something to further compensate. I'm playing a mad Lutheran Conquistador of a Cleric, and while the attack bonus would have been nice a few times, the average AC we've been going up against is 15. The attack bonus wouldn't have been necessary, but it would have been nice.




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