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Communism Edition

>Tabletop/P&P RPGs
[UESRPG - P&P RPG] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pTgTN2aJUoY95JtquowagfUJLL7tCQYhzJKcCAcbvio/edit?usp=sharing
[Scrollhammer - Tabletop Wargame] http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Scrollhammer_2nd_Edition
[TES 5E Conversion] https://uestrpg.wixsite.com/home
Discussion in #Scrollhammer (irc.thisisnotatrueending.com (port 6667))

>Lore Resources
[The Imperial Library] http://www.imperial-library.info/
[/r/teslore] http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/
[UESP/Lore] http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Main_Page
[Pocket Guide to the Lore] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AtsWXZKVqB4Q825_SwINY6z4_9NaGknXgeOknOCDuCU/edit
[Elder Lore Podcast] http://www.elderlore.wordpress.com/
[How to Become a Lore Buff] http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/

>General Rules
This is NOT /tesg/ minus waifus, so behave properly.
Keep the squabbling to a minimum.
No waifus/husbandos

Previous kalpa: >>57629400
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Bump
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>>57887993
M8 we're all asleep.

I hope you all have extra comfy sleep tonight
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>>57889091
thanks dude
I forget people actually go to bed sometimes
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>>57887993
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Got any more propaganda?
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>>57889415
10/10
first for actual lore discussion though: how do some of Dagoth Ur's Ash Creatures see? You know the ones I'm talking about. Is it just through magic, or what?
>>57889567
this isn't really propaganda but here you go
>>
What was Marukh?
Did Alessia really speak to him? Or Anu due to his Doctrines about the one true God?
Did Lorkhan (or Akatosh/Auriel) mean to oppose him through Wulfharth and why?
>>
>>57889587
its not magic, its knowing. see, they got their minds blown (literally) by realizing they are just a figment in a dream, but unlike Vehk, Talos and others, they failed to deal with it and their mortal coil couldn't handle it. however, they still know, even if they don't really self realize anymore.
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>>57889630
Yes.
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>>57889700
that makes sense. thanks!
>>
How does magic work in-universe? It really bothers me that entire tomes in Skyrim are require to learn a single spell, and I can't imagine an explanation for that.
>>
>>
>>57890338
>How does magic work in-universe?
Technically speaking, you're manipulating the dream into doing what you're commanding it to do, using power from Aetherius to do so.

Due to magicka coming in from Aetherius, you can will the dream into creating a fireball to throw at someone. You can trick the dream into thinking you can actually levitate. You can make the dream forget that a chest was locked. You make yourself believe you truly can breathe under water.

Using this same logic, you can manipulate the dream into letting you teleport into somewhere else (mark and recall).

The books are a convenient way for people to keep track of how to manipulate the dream using magicka (though levitation seems to have been forgotten pretty quick). This is all possible because Magnus made a quick escape, ripping a hole through Oblivion to let the light of Aetherius bathe Mundus with it's magic light.
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>>57890338
>It really bothers me that entire tomes in Skyrim are require to learn a single spell, and I can't imagine an explanation for that.
Gameplay is not, and has never been, supposed to be a perfect representation of the lore. I don't see what's hard to get about that.
>>
What is elf childhood like? When they reach maturity? When they are considered responsible adults? From one side, 17-year old Barenziah was having barbed dick sex, from the other Helseth in Daggerfall is 30-year old but looks like a teenager and kind of behaves like one. Not sure if Ayrenn is a proof in one or other side.

>>57890339
Priplyln?
>>
>>57890442
>Priplyln?
No idea, I don't speak vodka-runes.
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>>57887993
The fuck you on about m8y? that's the previous thread BEFORE the last previous thread.
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>>57890589
>>57890442

Priplyli

Means, "we have sailed to our destination". Can also be slang for "fuck, it's all over".

Great image.
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Anyone else love the lore and setting but just can't get into any of the games? It's like looking into a restaurant from the outside when your hungry, I want to engage in what i've been admiring and learning about but god damn these games got issues
>>
>>57889587
The Ash creatures are just another piece of Dagoth's apparatus. They see and act through their own blind faith in him, his dream and guidance. He is their eyes, they let him show them the way.
We see what happens when they are cut off from Dagoth Ur, the Ash Zombies scream for his presence, are driven mad by their inability to feel him.
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>>57889630
The Alessian god is Akatosh.
Wulfharth opposed the Alessians because their despotic rulership was threatening the time honoured traditions and nordic way of life. While Kjoric and Hoag before him had opposed the Alessians the same, Wulfharth acted with a whole new level of zealousy and completely purged the Alessians from Skyrim. For his actions people came to know him as the Ysmir, they also named him Shor's Tongue, as if Shor himself spoke through him.
Now think about this, was Wulfharth really carrying out Shor's direct will. Or was Wulfharth's zealotry just equated thusly. Consider how myths are born, and what they mean in TES.
>>
>>57889700
So why didn't they zero-sum like the Dwemer?
>>
>>57893630
The Dwemer didn't Zero-Sum, they became the Skin (actually the oversoul) of Numidium
>>
How tolerant are the Redguard of Meridia worship? Our party is about to cross the border from Bangkorai and I need to know how secretive my character should be with their worship.

I feel as though they might be grudgingly accepting of Meridia due to her hatred of all things undead, but on the other hand, she's a daedra, soooooo...
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>>57895159
The probably won't give a shit so long as you don't go around spouting out about Meridia all over the place.
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>>57894594
I never got where the whole "dwemer zero-summed" idea came from other than a fundamental misunderstanding of both the dwemer and CHIM.
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>>57896089
It was very early on in terms of when that idea was thought up. You're right, there was a fundamental misunderstanding of them, but I'm pretty sure that was even before Oblivion came out that people were speculating about where they went.
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>>57895159
Meridia a bitch, hope Molag rapes her
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>>57895159
I hate that I like Owyn, he's such a bitch ass but he's sassy as hell.
>>
>>57891945
morrowind is good for its sandboxyness but the combat sucks.

Oblivion is nice and approachable (potatoface aside) but lacks some of the neater aspects of morrowind. makes up for it with things like poison.

skyrim is trash. its pretty trash, but its trash.
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>>57898264
you sound like a contrarian, for all that skyrim does wrong it has qualities far superior than the other games
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>>57898264
oblivion has damage-sponge syndrome though if you use weapons and don't perfectly level
morrowind's combat is fine, it's just not pretty
skyrim has a lot of positive qualities it's just restrictive
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>>57899254
Oblivion has damage sponge syndrome when you level perfectly too.
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>>57899988
I mean, it isn't as bad with a Blade skill at 100 and Goldbrand but yeah, it's still spongy.
>>57895159
I doubt they'd care too much.
>>
>>57895159
It depends, I guess. If it's after the Oblivion Crisis you're going to be viewed very negatively, but in general terms it should probably be alright unless you go proselytising.
>>
>>57891945
I feel similarly. I could rant about the strengths and weaknesses of each game, but really the main reason I don't play is that sandbox games have started to bore me - there's only so much I can really do and so much I want to do, even with a game like Morrowind that gives me a lot of options or Oblivion that starts me in the center of the map and lets me go wherever I want.

>>57895159
That's a question I can't really answer - I think they generally prefer their own pantheon. I'm not sure how they feel about the daedra and aedra at all.
>>
>>57899156
Mind naming the list of things Skyrim does better?

Not the guy, just really wondering how people see Skyrim compared to Morrowind and Oblivion.
>>
>>57896842
I hope it's who gets Molag'ed
>>
I know LYGALYGALYG started as a no longer intelligible creation of the Monkey Kings, but what is it now?

MK said it wasn't a previous Kalpa, and that fits when you read about origins of Dagon. Dagon was originally a Leaper Demon King, but he got caught secreting away parts of the Kalpa before it was eaten by Alduin, and cursed until he finds all that he stole and destroys it. He hid stuff with his buddy, the Greedy Man in lots of weird places. One of these places, Lyg, with help from Meridia became parallel Tamriel.

Greedy Man became Ruddy Man, built a Tower in Lyg, and ruled over it with the Dreugh. Meridia didn't like that at all, especially since it was underwater, and told Dagon to fuck it up. But hold on, wasn't the previous Kalpa ruled by the Dreugh? Also, wasn't Ruddy Man from a previous Kalpa? Unless it is pure coincidence with the Dreugh, and Ruddy got cursed and only became Molag Bal in this Kalpa, it seems to point that Lyg is both a parallel Tamriel created by Meridia, and from a previous Kalpa. Which is it?
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>>57900972
Not him, but I can think of a few small things Skyrim does better.

The dungeons are less visually boring, even if they tend to be more mechanically boring. There's more growing things, interesting things to see, occasionally even being a bit vertical. It's mostly draugr ruins, but there are a few icy caves or dwemer ruins or even overgrown spriggan nests - a lot better than Oblivion's 'everything is gray,' definitely.

Skyrim also does better with NPCs travelling around the map. It uses more random spawns rather than unique NPCs going from town to town like Oblivion occasionally did, but it makes the world feel a bit more populated when you meet NPCs on the road.

Skyrim's amount of spells is paltry compared to older games, and I hate the lost of mysticism. But I like how they make even the low-level spells still feel useful even a fair way into the game through the perks and such. Oblivion had a problem where if you didn't regularly get better with magic and get better spells, you might as well stop using it, and your earliest spells became useless clutter. I haven't played around with Morrowind enough to know, but I imagine it has a similar problem. I don't like how spells take up a hand (Oblivion did well in allowing casting even with a sword and shield), but even the basic ones feel good to use - you don't have to awkwardly aim or rapidly switch from casting to melee.

The cooking system was kind of fun. It was nice to have food not be treated like potion ingredients, and it wasn't tied to stats so it didn't really take effort. Even after I stopped picking up potion ingredients (potions are everywhere anyway), I kept picking up food.

Skyrim still has a lot of problems in my mind though, don't get me wrong. It doesn't help that I feel like I've seen and explored it all, so there's no real reason to go back to it.
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>>57902111
I'm kinda confused by all this stuff. I just want more comfy old school mundane ES lore, the stuff about how people live their lives.
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So who's right in the end, the empire or the stormcloacks?
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>>57903173
I feel the Empire is more correct than the latter.
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>>57903173
Empire. But this isn't really a worthwhile argument to have nearly six years after the fact, and frankly I'm amazed that Bethesda managed the level of 'moral ambiguity' they did.
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>>57903363
I never liked these outfits, the helmet on the Legionnaire just feels off to me.

I also feel like "fantasy Roman" is always kinda played out too aesthetically close to real Romans.
>>
>>57902111
The Greedy Man was unstuck from the Kalpic cycle after trying to hide himself from Alduin.
>"He knows my bargain with the king of leapers, I'd better hide under my mountain!" but he thought and said all this too fast and, without thinking, hid under his mountain even though its base had already been eaten and so it wasn't all still there. (This is how the Greedy Man became trapped both in and outside of kalpas.)

>>57903138
The thing is that you don't have to pick one. You can have both a greater cosmology and a detailed look at regular life, and often there's a connection between those.
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>>57904076
Yeah, I get that, I like the cosmology but sometimes I just go "nani the fuck" with it.
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>>57903720
I kinda do miss Oblivion's Imperial Legion. I know it's just LotR pandering or whatever, but it was at least different. Would have been cool to have each Imperial faction look different by province - the Morrowind Legion might have needed to emphasize its Imperial-ness.
>>
>>57904561
I know it might piss people off, but I did like some of ESO's Imperial Legion, it was a good mix of Roman and medieval plate.
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>>57903173

Empire desu, the Stormcloaks were playing right into Thalmor hands and for what? To be Nord-nationalists and kick out all the Dunmer, to prove they have big dicks?
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>>57902111
Greedy Man is not Ruddy Man.
Meridia has nothing to do with Lyg.
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>>57904763
I have no idea what they look like, so eh. I actually kind of liked the ESO Breton armors, even if I think they made the Bretons pretty boring.

Yes, I know the Bretons were already pretty boring, but there was potential to not be boring.
>>
>>57889567
What does this one translate to?
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>>57903173
It's Objectively fruitless in the end. Mer societies excelled with magic and created utopias.

The Empires have only degraded and left magic to habitually rot over the ages. The Nords now fear something that is literally capable of anyone. The Empire never utilised Magic in anyway other then museums, trophies and heirlooms.

Let it all die I say. I'm not an elf sympathiser but men only have a capable empire when given a divine a blessed ruler, and since none have shown themselves it's not the Dragonborn's job to be that guy.
>>
>>57903173
Sybille Stentor says it best

Why Was Torygg killed?
>Because Ulfric needed a symbol. Someone he could defeat who represented the Empire, the White-Gold Concordat, the banning of Talos worship. Torygg's father Istlod had held Skyrim together for nearly twenty-five years. When he died, Torygg became that symbol.
So the war started when Istlod died?
>No. Even after Istlod died, the Moot voted to make Torygg High King of Skyrim. But Ulfric was at that moot, continually talking about Skyrim's independence in terms just shy of treason. I don't think Ulfric knew how much Torygg respected him for that. If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it.
Why didn’t Torygg ever declare independence?
>Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart.
>>
>>57904763
>Legion
>ESO
How? The Empire doesn't exist at this point.
>>
>>57907913
I think he means the general Imperial armor, which is okay. Order of the Hour is better for your religious roman legions though.
>>
>>57907523
Torygg overestimated the ability of the Dominion as far as I'm concerned. Redguard managed to push them out of their province and I don't see why others can't. Plus there are like 4 roads into skyrim, 2 of which come from morrowind, and 1 from hammerfel: it'd literally be a matter of fortifying one road and keeping your eyes out for the inevitable sneaky shit. That and making alliances with the powers in the other independent provinces adjacent to them. More Nord legionaries means more trained men able to defend their homeland since their king's making the call.

Plus the Empire's basically gone already: from what I understand, aside from skyrim they have cyrodil, high rock (who mostly stick to their own affairs), and some scattered outposts. It wasn't the first empire and won't be the last.

You gotta learn to let go of things: the world is a dream for you to enjoy, and you can't get too attached to scenes in a dream. They pass as quickly as the narrative allows. Because of that, the correct answer for these, as much arguments as you can muster for either side, will always be "which one do you like more?" and that's the end of it.

For me it's the Stormcloaks for the justice of them being shitty to those dark elves. Who's the n'wah now fuckers?
>>
>>57907913
According to ESO lore, the Legion existed under the warlord emperors of the period.
>>
>>57908186
>
>>57907913
>>57907937
I meant just the general armor, yeah. Not familiar with Order of the Hour, though.
>>
>>57906869

"Sow the blight! Sow Corprus! Let them bring joy to our guests!"
>>
>>57907463
>it's not the Dragonborn's job to be that guy.
It kind of is though, he or she is blessed by Akatosh just like Alessia and Tiber Septim

And the Dragonborn killed Titus Mede
>>
>>57905656
>>57904076
Alright, but even then this doesn't answer the confusion I had. Let me say it clearer:

>Lyg was ruled by Dreugh
>Previous Kalpa was ruled by Dreugh

>Ruddy Man ruled over Dreugh in Lyg
>Ruddy Man was from a previous Kalpa

>MK: Lyg is not previous Kalpa

It feels like Lyg was supposed to be one thing but then somebody changed it/forgot or something
>>
>>57910170
Sounds like Lyg is only an illusion of the last kalpa
>>
>>57908147
>Redguard managed to push them out of their province
With the help of the legion.

>>57910170
>>57910445
Lyg is an Adjacent Place.
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>>57903173
Neither is right, what I do know is the Empire is really deep on the side of wrong and has really overstayed its welcome.
>>
Tell me about the Argonians
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>>57916357
They're cute lizards that live in symbiosis with cute trees.
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>>57916357
Lizard are slave races.
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>>57916632
Slaves to my desires.
>>
>>57916357
Argonian music:
>I thought they should use the marsh itself as their primary musical instrument like the Baka Forest People use rivers. And play lots of odd percussion instruments like water drums and bohdans and djimbes and udus. And make slowed-down bird-call noises.

They come in many varieties:
>As they slid through the water, Shehs explained to Scotti that the Agacephs were one of the many Argonian tribes that lived in the interior of the province, near the Hist, finding little in the outside world worth seeing. He was fortunate to have been found by them. The Nagas, the toad-like Paatru, and the winged Sarpa would have killed him on the spot.

Ancient Lilmoth:
>He stood there, no longer seeing the crumbling, rotted Imperial warehouses, but instead a city of monstrous stone ziggurats and statues pushing up to the sky, a place of glory and madness. He felt it tremor around him, smelled anise and burning cinnamon, and heard chanting in antique tongues. His heart thumped oddly as he watched the two moons heave themselves through the low mist of smoke and fog that rolled through the streets, and the waters surged beneath them, around them, beyond the sky.

Their soul-cycle is funky:
>Mere-Glim wondered what would happen if he died. It was generally believed that Argonians had been given their souls by the Hist, and when one died, one’s soul returned to them, to be incarnated once more. That seemed reasonable enough, under ordinary circumstances. In the deepest parts of his dreams or profound thinking were images, scents, tastes that the part of him that was sentient could not remember experiencing.
>>
>>57916847
About that soul thing, could the Hist give a reborn argonian their previous life's memories back, should they wish to?
>>
>>57916917
Probably.
>>
Tell me, what is the comfiest time and place to be in Tamriel?
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>>57917503
I hear the Shivering Isles are lovely this time of the year. Really, do come in. Perfect time for a visit
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>>57917609
Sounds fun, I'll bring me mates
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>>57917503
seyda neen in the 3rd era, come and fuck with fargoth, it's great
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>>57910170
My interpretation is that Lyg bacame the Coldharbour after being destroyed by Mehrunes.
>>
>>57918530
Lyg is still there, Coldharbour however is the image of Lyg seen by Molag Bal after it got raised by Mehrunes. And since Molag Bal was ruled over Lyg once, that might explain why he's not a nice guy.
>>
>>57916357
literally the only time in argonians' and the hists' history that they've been cool was the oblivion crisis and umbriel. one was extremely recently and the other had nothing to do with black marsh. other than that they're such pushovers and have had an embarrassing history of constantly getting their asses kicked and enslaved
>>
>>57912738
And why couldn't legion covertly help a Toryyg led lawful secession that was stealthily preparing to help what's left of the Empire and what's left the empire to fuck up the dominion if they could get away with helping hammerfel?
>>
>>57916847
And make slow-down bird-call noises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx8hrhBZJ98

ONE JOB ANON-KUN

If they do a multiprovince game, something similar to the part around 35 seconds should be the flavor music for entering Black March the first time.
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>>57918811
The Black Marsh is toxic to anyone but Argonian. They retained dissolute tribal systems and never developed large military forces because they could always just retreat deeper into the Marsh where non-Argonians can't follow to escape.
>>
>>57919874
Blame Douglas Goodall for writing that, not me.

I actually saw Huun-Huur-Tu live a couple of weeks ago. Shit was real good. Worth seeing if they're ever in your area.
https://youtu.be/-bDntRWfL70
>>
>>57903173
Stormcloaks. The dying empire has to be reborn anew with a new Nord Dragonborn from Skyrim, just like Talos did
>>57903363
You got anymore of those types of Imperial armors? I actually like that aesthetic
>>
>>57920053
>Blame Douglas Goodall for writing that, not me.

Guy sounds like a lore brainlet dipshit. Where the fuck are a bunch of lizards who thinks trees are gods gonna get the shit to make drums?
>>
>>57920168
>Nord Dragonborn
LMAO

DB isn't a Nord
>>
>>57903720
>I never liked these outfits, the helmet on the Legionnaire just feels off to me.

He's a Morrowind Legionnaire. The helmet is supposed to make the locals feel more comfortable because they're modeled after bonemold helms.
>>
>>57920196
Except he is
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>>57920196
That's right. She's a Bosmer. A qt Bosmer at that.
>>
>>57920279
DB is Nerevar reborn
>>
>>57920196
>>57920279
>>57920294
>>57920321
Are we gonna need a Warp in the Northeast to get you dipshits to shut up.

>STORMCLOAKS AND EMPIRE BOTH WIN SIMULTANEOUSLY DB WAS EVERYONE OF EVERY RACE ALL ALONG
>>
>>57920478
well, there was a time wound on the top of a tower
and that seems like a particularity fun combination
>>
So was Marukh an Imga, a Tang Mo or just a figurative monkey?
>>
>>57920613
Orc.
>>
>>57920613
Imga.
>>
>>57920613
>ust a figurative monkey?
Whatever you do, don't call him a monkey. oh fu-
>>
>>57920168
>Nord Dragonborn from Skyrim, just like Talos did
>Talos
>A Nord
Only after the Warp in the West, and only 1/3 of him. Tiber Septim, aka Hjalti Earlybeard, was a Breton from Alcaire who was an absolute dick to everyone and used the ghost of Whulfarth to win most of his fights for him and do most of his Thu'um stuff for him
>>
>>57921801
>using TES lore
>>
>>57921865
*TESO lore. Fuck,
>>
>>57921887
don't use teslore either
>>
>>57920570
I still find it funny that the Nords' last resort plan was to wave around an Elder Scroll until it reverse Samurai Jack'd Alduin.
>>
>>57921971
Doesn't Alduin eat those for breakfast? You'd think an aspect of a Dragon of Time would be, if not immune to time shenanigans, the one doing them.
>>
>>57921865
>The Arcturian Heresy
>The events of Daggerfall
>TESO lore
Congrats, you're a casul
>>
>>57921887
>implying The Arcturian Heresy is TES:O lore
you what nigger, the book was in Morrowind
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>>57921887
Nigga, does this look like TESO to you?
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>>57922279
>Prepare to experience your new obsession.

And here I am in 2018, still discussing this shit.
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>>57919874
>walk into black marsh
>tuvan throat singing starts playing
fuck my sides
>>
>>57922040
Play the game
>>
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>>57922340
I wish I could say the same. The character creation seems deep, and for the time it must have been fantastic, but I never get much farther than that first tutorial dungeon - and I don't think it's even half as huge as some of the dungeons you go through later.
>>
>>57890380
Where can I get a rundown on this? I tried to get to the bottom of TES metaphysics on UESP but found nothing.

What do you mean 'the dream'? I'm doing research trying to get to the bottom of all this kirkbridian metaphysics. As for magic, I was reading some books in Morrowind today that explained how magic is just basically warping reality to your will. So the fabric of reality is a dream?

Also like the anon who asked the question I'm wondering about the mechanics of magic, it's overlooked but really interesting to think about. I suppose you manifest some sort of energy in your hands (hence why you need to 'cast' a spell rather than simply just think it), and using your will you turn that energy into a magical effect. Perhaps the spell tome contains some sort of meditation instructions. I imagine learning a spell means meditating on a specific set of objects or actions until a mini enlightenment into the nature of the spell is attained. From there you practice so you can further manifest reality to your whim.
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>>57902118
>I don't like how spells take up a hand (Oblivion did well in allowing casting even with a sword and shield), but even the basic ones feel good to use - you don't have to awkwardly aim or rapidly switch from casting to melee.
no way, I like the way Skyrim does it. It means magic commands the same amount of space as weapons instead of making magic a side thing you do in addition to weapons like Oblivion did, which is only good if you're playing a battlemage. Though considering Oblivion had no unarmored skill and robes took up 2 slots when each slot can hold an enchantment so no one ever wore robes, 95%+ mages in Oblivion was probably a battlemage as a result.
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>>57926593
Okay so at the very bottom of the rabbithole, there is the godhead. Everything in the entirety of TES takes place in the godhead's dream. Essentially, the dream is reality, and everyone and everything in it is a figment of imagination, even the "gods."

Magic is manifested from magicka, which is energy being shot out of the sun and stars (which are actually holes torn the fabric of 'space' around the plane that Tamriel is on, Nirn, to Aetherius, the plane of magic) and thus suffuses the plane with itself so people can use it. Meanwhile, Thu'um is a different beast, in that it doesn't use magicka at all, rather you shout a command at physics and physics warps to listen. So you can do things like stop time, or breathe fire, or whatever. The trick is that, in order for you to actually Shout and not just be yelling random draconic words, you have to fundamentally understand whatever it is you are trying to say. The reason why the Dragonborn is special is because they already have an inherent understanding of those shouts from absorbing the souls of other dragons.
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>>57927186
So magic is manipulation of the godheads imagination? Also that makes me think of another question: are the elder scrolls part of the dream or do they come from outside of the 'primordial void/god/whatever'
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So, what are the towers I've seen you canons reference on occasion? To my understanding, they're holding reality together, but each game has seen, or implied, one's destruction.
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>>57926777
Oblivion was weird for spellcasters. Wearing armor lowered your spell effectiveness, and to cast faster you had to press block+cast at the same time. Raising magic skill levels was incredibly easy, even without the use of custom spells.
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>>57929160
Towers are a circle seen sideways.
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>>57927186
The Dream is not reality it is the place where reality is born. Reality is the false realm in which is governed through the design and machination of the gods, magicka is used merely to manipulate this state which is itself emanated from the magical, immaterial, realm of existence which is Aetherius, i.e materiality is static state of magic, it is defined so it is 'real,' but that definition can be changed.
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Hello everyone, it's a beautiful day for some lore.

A short comment on Lyg:
It's as someone else stated an Adjacent Place, it's outside the Kalpic cycle. It kind of has to be, when you think about it.

>>57927431
>So magic is manipulation of the godheads imagination?
Only in the most general, metaphysical sense. Besides that, magic isn't the only way to manipulate the dream.
I don't know how much of a newfriend you are, but for the benefit of anyone new who may be reading, I'm going try to do a very basic rundown on all of this.

So, the guy you've been talking to until now has been talking about the most extreme reaches of the metaphysics, and while what he says isn't wrong, it seems like it might not be entirely helpful to your questions. First, I'm going to give a very concrete definition of what I mean by magic.

As has been mentioned, magic is something you can use to manipulate the Dream. Likewise, just as you mentioned, magic is a matter of forcing your will upon reality. Both of those are correct, but they're not the only ways you can do such things. In other fantasy fiction, "magic" is generally a catchall term describing anything that is beyond the mundane, or fantastical.

In TES, I'd define magic as something much more narrow: It's the usage of energy from Aetherius to enforce your will upon reality. Someone might have a more fancy definition, but I hope you'll get what I mean.
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>>57932452
Tonal Architecture, for example, is also a way to change reality, and while you could describe it as magical, it falls outside the definition of magic I'm working with here, because it's not fundamentally about using light from Aetherius to make changes. I'd argue that Shadow Magic might also be "not magic", though it's possible that it's just some odd application of Mysticism. (You could argue that due to the admixture of everything, and how light is colour is sound is emotion is etc, you can't really draw these distinctions, but that falls outside what I'm currently talking about).

Don't think too much about the tomes, that's a side tangent of fairly little value. It's mostly just a gameplay mechanic, and if it represents anything at all, it represents how you can learn magic from books. It's not a very important aspect of any of this.

In terms of how magic is actually done, we can practically forget about the concepts of Godhead and Dream. It's there' just as the laws of physics allow you to ride a bike, but you don't need to understand them or even know they exist to use them. It's the same for mages. They're not aware of the nature of the Godhead, but they do know that magic comes from Aetherius through holes in the Firmament.
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>>57932479
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will" - Aleister Crowley.
"It is not enough to cast a spell upon an inert object. Magic requires thought, intent, will and emotion" - A Tragedy in Black.

So, let's get back to Tamriel. There's a huge, bright hole in the sky, radiating magical light down on Mundus. That doesn't mean that you just get magic from sunbathing, it rather permeates through everything, being pretty much omnipresent. Most magic is pretty fleeting, and is fundamentally about using this energy to impose your will on reality for a moment. Altering the "real". In a sense you're using some of that sweet sun-radiation to convince the Godhead that "I can totally throw fireballs" and thus manipulating the Dream, but you don't know that.

"To master Alteration, first accept that reality is a falsehood ... To cast Alteration spells is to convince a greater power that it will be easier to change reality as requested than to leave it alone." - Reality & Other Falsehoods

Of course, not all magic is that straight-forwards. You don't just will something, add some energy, and have things happen, at least not practically speaking. You'll usually approach magic in the form of a package, a spell or ritual (the difference is really just one of scale). After all, it requires less will to perform a spell if you already know that other people do it this way, that it works. So what you're doing with your hand in a game can be viewed as a gesture, a physical component to a spell. The bigger the change, the more components and layers you add to a spell or ritual, to better enforce your will.
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>>57932520
"Forgoing the showy lights and sounds of the forest-dwelling mages in Summerset, the flamboyant gesticulations of the Bretons, or even the bellowing of the Nords, there is a certain economy to the casting of a true Alik'r wizard. This is not meant as a slight against other magical styles, only noting that a such energies might be better focused into reflection and purpose" - Wind and Sand

Some forms of magic are less concrete, and therefore less understood. Mysticism is such a thing.

"Mysticism seems to derive power from its conundrums and paradoxes ... Therefore the Mystic mage must consign himself to finding dependable patterns within a roiling imbroglio of energy. In the time it takes him to devise an enchantment with a consistent trigger and result, his peers in the other schools may have researched and documented dozens of new spells and effects" - Mysticism

Sometimes there's more factors involved, like with Conjuration. When you're working with Conjuration, what you're typically doing is summoning an entity from Oblivion and binding that to your will. And then you have stuff like the Ideal Masters. But in general you're always using power from Aetherius to make all this happen. Let's just quickly note that the schools of magic are just in-universe classifications.
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>>57932542
This became much more of a ramble than I'd hoped, and I probably got something wrong or misused some terms, but I hope you understand the general gist of what I'm talking about. Magic is the theory and practice of using that which flows from Aetherius to change "the real" into what you will. There's specifics and unknowns that make this more complicated, but that's the most basic description of it.
The practical side of magic is that it comes down to everything from style to intent, but all takes place within the same general framework.

For most magicians, a lot of what I've been talking about is outside the scope of their understanding or attention. The high-metaphysics are either entirely unknown, or known to more scholarly mystics. For many, magic exists in some sort of borderland being both somewhat academic and somewhat instinctual. Your average Breton witch probably has some general idea about the relationship between Aetherius and Tamriel, and Tamriel and Oblivion, but will ultimately largely work within their tradition. They'll cast spells using the intent, gestures and knowledge that's been passed on to them, and do their rituals within their cultural style.

Oh and yes, meditation is a thing, though it's probably not something all mages do. I forgot to talk about alchemy and wortcraft, but that will have to wait.
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>>57929160

Towers prevent Mundus from dissipating back into promordial chaos. Men, who believe that the world was created to test men and bring out the best in them, wish for the world to persist. Elves, who believe that the world was created as punishment and that the deactivation of the towers will return them to godhood (think "Garden of Eden"), have a vested interest in the deactivation of the towers.

I think. Someone more knowledgeable about the lore might come along with a more accurate explanation.
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>>57932655
Thanks anon that explains a lot. I'm not a complete lorelet but I've been trying to learn more recently. But as far as the tomes go, I know it's just a game mechanic but I like to think they fit into the lore too. Perhaps they hold information you must read, think about, and then apply. I used the term meditation but really I envisioned it as just sitting and thinking about a problem like any other scholarly discipline.

This is just conjecture but maybe for a water breathing tome, it mentions a brief history of development of the spell, objects to concentrate your will on in order to cast the spell (maybe "concentrate on the air pockets within water" or "envision a fish's gills", etc), applications of the spell, etc. Once you are able to concentrate it becomes second nature with practice, almost like solving math problems, hence why spells get easier. You know the steps/techniques and can do it quickly and efficiently.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on understanding the academic aspects of magic and how it is learned. It's fun to think about, how does one actually teach a spell? I think it must do teaching one how to focus their will. And to do that you need to concentrate on objects inside your mind. (I got that concept from Buddhism). For some races this is intuitive, like bretons and high elves, and for others its harder to grasp.
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>>57926777
As you've pointed out, Oblivion was great if you wanted to play a battlemage. But Skyrim made that a bit more awkward with having to have at least one hand free for magic instead of actually allowing blocking, and Morrowind had casting so that you basically had to empty your hands, I can't remember a succinct way of saying it.

Basically the only game aside from Oblivion that allowed you to effectively cast and use melee at the same time without either being hampered was Daggerfall - and probably Arena as well, since they're similar, but I can't confirm with my own experience.
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How were there Dragonborn before Alessia like Miraak and Wulfharth? And wasn't Wulfharth before Miraak yet Miraak is called 'the first dragonborn'.
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>>57903173
Stormcloaks. No-one has the right to deny another their religious beliefs, the Thalmor act like the fucking Gestapo and are literally racist supremacists, the Empire lost their divine mandate with the death of the Septim dynasty and they tried to cut my fucking head off within thirty seconds of character generation.

Fuck them. Kill every goose-stepping Thalmor cunt you see, 1000 septims is nothing when you're making bank on potions, smithing and enchanting.
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>>57904797
To worship the Nine.
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>>57934196
Miraak was a dragon cultist, all the shouting draugr were dragonborn as well. They were all from the Mythic Era, which I think comes at least hundreds of years before Wulfharth
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>>57917609
CHEESE
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>>57934847
The draugrs with the Shout were not dragonborn. One can learn the Voice without having a dragon soul. Miraak was a dragonborn AND a dragon priest, but that doesn´t make the rest of the cult like him
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>>57920177
From the skins of Imperials, stretched across hollow gourds. Easy.
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>>57934936
How come Miraak got the distinction of being dragonborn? Couldn't other cultists have been those as well?
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>>57934977
Because he can absorb dragon souls. Non-Dragonborn can’t
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>>57933976
> having to have at least one hand free for magic instead of actually allowing blocking

I just used a shield in my left hand for when my mana was regenerating, and cast spells with my right.
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>>57935062
Oh, so you're saying that as Alessia retroactively created the dragonborn, he became Dovahkiin because he rebelled against the dragons, and dragon priests never could have as they stayed loyal? makes sense
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>>57935062
Which makes me wonder why Akatosh chooses these people to be Dragonborn. There's no moral requirement, they can be great heroes or equally terrible villains. The only requirement seems to be that they be extraordinary.
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>>57935128
Akatosh is crazy.
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>>57935128
It’s Akatosh’s version of the Shezarrine, they further his plan
Miraak weaken the Dragon Cult and was asked to slay Alduin. Him fucking off with Mora is possibly due to realizing that and he’d rather surpass his destiny
Alessia create the Oblivion barrier and the emperors maintains it
Last Dragonborn returns Alduin to him

So the general req would be more like “right man in the right place”
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>>57934196
APPARENTLY THERE YOU COULD CLASSIFY DRAGONBORNS IN TWO DIFFERENT WAYS

ALESSIAN DRAGONBORN: DESCENDANT OF ALESSIA THE WHORE.

OTHER DRAGONBORN: CHOSEN BY AKATOSH BECAUSE HE'S A WEIRD DUDE.

WAS REMAN CYRODILL DRAGONBORN?
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Miraak was an utter failure, he achieved nothing. Literally lived like a NEET in Mora's realm
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>>57935942
Alessia was chosen by Akatosh, and all descendants of Dragonborns are also dragonborns
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>>57932844
>Someone more knowledgeable about the lore might come along with a more accurate explanation.
Hi. It's not all of the Towers that do this, just the first two. The rest of the Towers were created by civilizations of Mer in imitation of the first (two), and the world was stable before them.
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>>57934196
Miraak is from the Merethic Era, before recorded History. Alessia was the first Dragonborn recorded in History

He's probably older than Wulf
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>>57935114
There's two types of dragonborn: dragonborn emperors who have dragon blood because of Alessia's covenant with Akatosh, and then there's chosen dragonborn who have a more powerful form of Akatosh's gift. It's like how there's there's those shitty low level dragons and then there's legendary dragons
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>>57935955
Yeah, why did it take him fucking 4 Eras to finally crawl out of Mora's basement? What was he even doing all this time?
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>>57934847
The dragur aren't dragonborn are they? I thought they were just adept at using the Thu'um like Ulfric
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>>57936014
But time wasn't, each tower has it's own thread of time, it's own influence
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>>57937094
Then he lost a fight to a guy who discovered he was a dragonborn two weeks ago
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>>57937094
He had an infinite library at his disposal, 80% of it is probably porn. He had a lot of gap material to get through first
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>>57937111
You are right. As far as we know, the only dragonborn in the dragon cult was Miraak, who in the end royally fucked up the dragons. Dragonborns and dragons are natural enemies, like englishmen and scots.
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>>57937210
*fap
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>>57935942
Reman was born with the amulet lodged in his forehead and lived his life like a FATAL campaign. Being a Dragonborn is the most solid thing about him
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>>57937223
>tfw in my autistic head cannon the DB becomes best friends with the dragons and he takes over the empire with his army of dragon frends during the power vacuum with the assassination of the emperor and claims his bloodright to rule Tamriel and take revenge on the normies who wronged him
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>>57937223
Tiber (probably Hjalti) has a pet dragon killed in Redguard
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>>57937557
Which is kind of strange when you think about dragons in Skyrim: these giant, powerful, highly intelligent beings who view themselves as almost gods and superior to man/mer in every way.
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>>57937720
Nafaalilargus was a red Dragon, just like Odahviing (the one you capture in dragonsreach). Red dragons tend to serve humans I suppose. It's even the symbol of the Tiber empire.
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>>57937856
Odahviing only agrees to serve you because you proved you're stronger than the strongest dragon. I suppose Tiber Septim must have earned Nafaalilargus' repsect in some way. But I guess Paarthurnax also decided to help humans so maybe some dragons are just more partial to humans than others
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>>57937137
To be fair the Dragonborn got buffed by Mora in exchange for knowing how to build mud huts
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>>57937972
The anon who tried to make a Simpsons reference here. Paarthurnax says something like "what is best? to be naturally good or to surpass your nature and become good?" more or less.

Dragons are self-centered, dominant creatures. Paaturnax becomes what he is denying his instincts, buddhism style. I think he is an exceptional case, and should not be taken as an example of mortal-friendly dragons.
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Man I'm starting to get thirsty for Elder Scrolls VI.
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>>57938249
Lygga it's been 7 years, people have started dying of dehydration at this point
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>>57903173
Empire, not even close. The Empire just has to stall for a few years and rebuild, but afterwards they can attack the Mer again.
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>>57920279
>He doesn't know that all the protagonists in all the games are the glorious Breton Atronach master race.
>Including Cyrus
Sad.
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>>57938160
All dragons were 'friendly' to mortals when they were worshipped as gods, until Alduin came and fucked everything up.

>>57938249
>I don't need it
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>>57938448
They weren´t friendly. They had a servant-master relationship. They may have been benevolent masters, but in no moment friendly to the mortals.
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>>57938384
After waiting forever for half life 3 just to get fucked over, I've lost interest in media series.
Only lore matters.
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>>57938416
>implying all the protagonist aren’t just modified Argonians acting as the Hist’s sleeper agents
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>>57902111
The dreugh came from a pasta kalpa, actually
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This is a pet theory I came up with for the popular mod ELDER KINGS for Crusader Kings 2, which explains Pyandonea's violent and rather confusing manner of which it operates. This explanation, will not only unlock the mystery of Orgnum, and his Archipelago, but will also draw credence to the actions of the Mer and their intentions.


To understand the present, you must look towards the past.


**The Dawn Era, Ancient Aldmeris, and the War of Old and New*


My first attempt at this grand mystery, traveled back towards the Dawn Era, when the world was new. I believe Orgnum's Rebellion was one of the first events after The Convention. Orgnum was at the convention, I am all but certain, for he was banished from Aldmeris long before the Chimer or Dunmner or Summerset were even concepts.


Orgnum was mentioned as a wealthy noble, in Aldmeris.. And while it was a 'kingdom', this makes no sense. Why would an Et'Ada have any wealth, when his brethren, and himself, have all lost much of their divinity? Was he selling something, what, how could someone possibly be a notable wealthy noble in a time where the laws of time didn't even exist yet. No, no, I think Wealthy is a synonym for those who have not the perception to understand. Wealth, in the mortal plane, goes hand in hand with *Power*. I believe Orgnum was ostensibly powerful individual, and created a concept within Nirn that would exist for the rest of its time: War.


It was not the Wanderers, the Men, who stroke first. It was their own Aedra. The Elves have denounced this information and convoluted it, and to be true, there are almost no references to this significant event. Orgnum's attempt failed, he was banished towards the islands of Pyandonea... But, wait, that doesn't make sense. The sundering had not happened yet, and all landmassses in Nirn were one. What are these random islands doing here?
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>>57938718
**Godhood, the nature of it**


We all know that one can access CHIM to reach godhood, but in the Dawn Era, this was not necessary, for they were all gods, and all knew their places in the greater struggle. A god, however, as time moves on, associates with something. Even those with Pandemic nature, have a nature *even if one's nature is to be absolutely mad, Sheo lookin' at you*


and so Orgnum fashioned his realm with one of snakes. He had personal snake bodyguards, and, his islands were a lush swampy jungle, perfect for his new servants' to thrive. With this connection established, and no other snake-lords around, we can safely assume that Orgnum is the 'lord of the snakes' as Akatosh is to Dragons or as Hircine is to Werewolves.


I have more theories on what exactly his followers are, but I shall get back to that later, when we shift out of the Dawn and Merethic eras, for you must understand exactly what I mean.
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>>57938718
>>57938733
**Sakatal**


Now that we have addressed his connections towards snakes, and cultivating his realm with them, we will move on towards the elephant in the room and the true key to Orgnum. You see, should you read the Monomyth(http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth)the yokuda beliefs are the most VIVID in the world. We shall refer to them, because, they were a primordial people.


Primordials are generally more instinctive, they have legends and myths that are very powerful. They can tell when one's power is real. In Skyrim, we have many references to the Atmorans, and what they perceived to be their own history, which has led us to many revelations on their surroundings. The yokudan history has been carried over to Hammerfell, and so its origins can be disputed, and I will look for greater meaning within them because of this.


During the Dawn era, the yokudans were likely off shoots from the original wanderers, and settled in Yokuda, looking for a place to call home. The blackskin of Redgaurds developed from their Desert Surroundings, so we can tell this was many thousands of years. We are told that the Sinistral Elves(Or the Lefthanded ones), and ruled over an Empire Four times as large as that of the Septim Dynasty. Ruled from the Orichalc Tower, this would make them an especially dangerous enemy for their foes later down the line, but this was the Merethic Era, where the gods were still quite strong.
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>>57938763
>>57938733
>>57938718


Why were the Lefthanded elves picked upon, for from the myth, the Redgaurds only ever had the ability to strike at them once their 'gods' helped them, and, only ever had the desire. Redgaurds do not like speaking of this(althought I doubt anyone has ever asked a Sakatal fanatic) but I don't believe this is because the Sinistral elves' cruelty. For this we go towards the real life definition of Orichalcum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum), Plato and Critias claim that Orichalcum is the ore found largely in Atlantis, made famous from it, and is second only to gold. And in truth, Yokuda had also quite literally sunk into the sea.


I believe the Sinistral elves were the second most powerful power on Nirn after the Dawn Era, second only to the Gold, the Altmer(the further this, you could say Bronze, the Dwemer were third in strength, but thats where the connections towards metals end for the rest of them are too confusing to piece together. Ash vs snow?). The Yokudan struggle was said to last a thousand years, however, even though their time on the First era is not even Eight-Hundred. This was a struggle basically since the start of when time started moving linearly, but who would wish to take out one of the Altmer's greatest allies, and bring devastation towards a continent at least twice the size of Tamriel?
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>>57938783
>>57938763
>>57938733
>>57938733
>>57938718

The god of destruction, of change, Sakatal. You see in the myth Satak is the ever lasting, he is Anu, he is barely referenced because of how dominate he is, everything stems from the First Snake. But the Hunger is Akel, it is Pandomey, it is Sithis. By the time of the Second Snake, although he is made of Anu, his purpose is only one of everlasting chaos, of Pandomic nature. The pantheon of Redgaurd gods form from surviving this. Not from beating it. Surviving. The Tall Papa, their personification of Akatosh, created a follower named Sep, but he was formed from the dead carcasses of Sakatal's past versions, so he still had the hunger within him... But his inclination is to form a new world, from the material of old, and stop the cycle. Where the spirits could live in peace. He is chatised for this and is forsaken, and while the new world is allowed to ascend, he is left alone and dark.


We will come back to this, I suggest you read the full story to get all the details, but this is a primordial myth, so it's left untouched from Lorkhan being reborn from Shor or Talos. This is when the Yokudans believe that Sep was a mere shadow of the true horror. Sakatal. I believe their gods, are a mere personification to drive to give credence towards the VIVID horrors they saw(which they do not speak of in a historical sense, only in a mythic sense). Sakatal(orgnum) approached them, and gave them weapons through his proxies to wage war against the lefthanded elves. He tricked them, perhaps made them afraid. When they did his bidding, the Sinistral(lefthanded) elves were entirely destroyed, and their original continent sank.
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>>57938718
**Objectivity**


After destroying his most sacred enemy's strongest ally, Orgnum and his allies further divided the elves into many sects. The Altmer were the only ones who could truly stand against him, and in the first and second eras were full of war, the Maormer came out from their islands, which they did not do during the Merethic Era, and raided the Summerset Isles. Alinor was under siege constantly, ever year, it was constant war, we have never seen anything like this in TES lore and it went on for centuries..


Until one day, it stopped. Every raid was led by Orgnum himself, until, suddenly, the Alinor joined forces with him to for the 2nd Adlmeri Dominion. How is this possible, when Orgnum slayed countless Altmer and Bosmer(at this time, being thousands of years old *but growing younger each year* ) I'll tell you what changed: The Thalmor.


The Thalmor are very important for this understanding. Because they are not what you may think of them. The Thalmor claim to represent the elves of old, and, are a distinctive order within Tamriel's history because they precisely DON'T do what their ancestors would have wanted. They do the opposite. The original Adlmer wished to tie the world down. Create an 'Everlasting Perfection', for, while Lorkhan(and in some instances credence goes towards Sithis) created Nirn in the first place and disturbed everything, time has passed so much now, that things are growing routine. Heck, even look at the elder scroll games. Huge cataclysmic events are threatening the world, and always, a lone her steps up and stops it all..
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>>57938718
Routine is not chaos. Mortals, for while they have independent thoughts, are easily controlled and grow into stasis eventually for if dominated by one diety they would become like the lesser Daedra, boring playthings, of no use because they are just mindless servants. The reason why the Daedra are so interested in Nirn is not because of its inhabitants, it's because it's a small case battle of the Great Game. The forces of Chaos and Order constantly fighting. If one Daedric Prince were to conquer Nirn, and enter it into their plane, no others would be interested in it because it wouldn't be a game. A distraction any longer.


Anyways, basically tamriel is special because of Lorkhan, who allowed the mortals to reach godhood themselves. Self-reflection, CHIM, whatever you want to call it. He basically made a warrior-making factory for the Everlasting War... (Or perhaps he had other ideas, we'll return to this later). Since new gods are being created, like Talos and Vivec, this is greatly disturbing Pandomic entities. But this isn't a threat they did not underestimate.


so if the original Adlmer wished to create more towards every where they went, to tie the world down, and create its laws, why do the Thalmor wish to destroy this?

Orgnum ceased his raids. He was calling the shots within the Second Dominion, and it likely would have succeeded right there. He had shattered the elves, so he could infiltrate them, and he just had to battle the Wanderer races of Man, which the Elves had already done, to bring the destruction of Nirn as his incarnation Sakatal foretold to the Yokudans.
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>>57938718

But a huge statue stepped in their way. and on them. Literally. This ended the Thalmor, but Orgnum was not gone. He wasn't done. I am 100% that Pyandonea looked for by Tiber. The Numidium could travel through water, so Orgnum was not safe... Unless his realm... Was not on nirn. That's right, as I said before, Orgnum is a clear ethereal being, and has a strange connection towards Nirn that allows him and his followers to warp into Nirn to attempt its destruction. Pyandonea doesn't exist. At least, not as we imagine. Its not a landmass. Its a plane of oblivion.
>>
>>57938718
**Change of Tactics*


Following the humiliating defeat of the Second Dominion, Orgnum rallied his servants, and attempted a sort of Oblivion Crisis himself, a full-on invasion of Tamriel. This was not the small patrols and outposts he sent before during the 2nd Dominion, this was a force large enough to conquer all of Tamriel, and the Numidium could not stop him now..


But one Order could. This is perhaps what draws this entire theory, this entire conspiracy together. The Psijic Order. During this war, called the War of the Isle, it was not the Imperial Fleet's majesty that defeated Orgnum, it was this mysterious order... Why did they interlude into this conflict? This is remarked as very mysterious in its recount, The Psijic Order barely involves itself in anything except Alinor, and at this time, barely even that. Why would they stop a mere invasion, when they didn't help during the Akavir wars?


Because the Psijic Order ties back to Aldmeris... If you'll recall, they specifically left them when the Altmer reorganized their religion. They stopped Ancestor worship and began to worship specific deities. I believe this was more a mere theological debate. The Psijic Order was perhaps the congregation of the most powerful beings since The Convention, at least at this time, why would they separate over this? Because Orgnum was an Aldmeri Ancestor. One of the most powerful, and given his brief habits, we know he enjoyed a luxurious lifestyle and was very virile(having mated with Potema of Solititude even though he was thousands of years old).
>>
>>57938718
He was, after all this time, ancestor to *many* Altmer. Similar to Charlemange, eventually all ties would go back to him, Trinimac, or Auri-el, and so the Altmer wished to erase this part of their history, after all, they have a knack for erasing things.


The Psijic Order saw the foolishness in this. If you forget your history, you forget your own enemies. And the Altmer did exactly that, they forgot the dangers, and eventually fell towards Orgnum's persuasions. because the forces of padomay are not always destructive. Orgnum was the great betrayer, he was a traitor, and the Altmer wished to disbelieve he existed. If he was a God like Auri-el, perhaps he could have been dismissed when no one thought of him(and almost no one thought of him. He isn't even mentioned by the Daedra, or hardly the Altmer)


So they established their own island away from the others, and you know what, now that I think about it, Artaeum, their island, is actually a spaceship(something that travels between planes), and could potentially fight the forces of Oblivion from even encroaching or reaching Nirn. If possible, they know first hand what Orgnum truly is, and so helped during the War of the Isle.
But you can never stem chaos. It only recedes, and comes back with a vengeance.
>>
>>57938718

**Daedric Forces**


Let's rewind a bit. I have established that Sakatal is Orgnum, and that Orgnum is an agent of chaos. This means he had contact with Lorkhan, and the Daedric Princes, during the Dawn era, which makes everyone's actions a bit more clear... After it was revealed Lorkhan deceived everyone, most mortal races take this to mean that Lorkhan is the ultimate evil. but he is not. He is what I describe as Third Way. He deceived both the forces of Chaos and Order. For Orgnum, and other Pandomic gods were 100% on Nirn, and saw its creation, most of them likely having escaped with Magnus, but Orgnum was a creation of Sithis. and Sithis wanted revenge. You see what Lorkhan created was not a realm of pure chaos. He did not kill Aniuel, at best, he killed(or trapped) Auri-el, but as told it Altmer myth, Auri-el was replaced as soon as he left by Anu. Lorkhan failed in his purpose and only created a potential liability for Chaos.

And liability it was. Aurbis was a realm away from Chaos and Stasis. It allowed Time to exist. The Daedric princes formed their oblivion realms, their planes of existence, and grew to be their own forces. They were no longer beings of pure order or chaos, and they were deeply intrigued into Nirn itself, for it was the ultimate prize in their personification. Aurbis was a new realm, away from Stasis or Chaos, no matter how small it was.
>>
Anuiel was deeply disturbed by all of this chaos, but so to was Sithis disturbed by all of this.. Structure This realm had laws, even when they were stretched to the extreme. It had limitations. Lorkhan was the god of Limitations, and he limited his own creator's influence upon him. He created a new realm for the new races, the new gods. So I don't believe he is a force of Chaos. For the forces of Chaos were already at large. Somehow the Daedric Princes were well coordinated, wiping out Jyggalag, their main obstacle in their games within this new realm. They came together, and formed him into Sheograth.. Instead of killing him, they reverted Order, into Chaos. This was when most of the Order gods were on Nirn, so Jyggalag was alone and essentially killed, somehow the Daedric plotted their next move against the descendants of Order.


The mer. As I said before the Mer were originally the only thing keeping nirn together in the Merethic era(we really have no idea what the hist was doing), there's even clues they were fighting Oblivion forces across the planes. But susceptible to persuasion and manipulation, the forces of mortals are. We have two events where Daedric Princes directly interfered with the elves, Veloth the Prophet, and Trinnimac vs Boethiah, this is really interesting because we don't know why they interfered so much in Aldmeri splintering. They did not touch the Dwemer, Falmer, or Aylied? I believe this was a precognitive planned move.

You see, Sakatal's purpose is to consume the world. Some think that Yokuda is an echo of this, but in my belief, I think it has yet to happen. In the myth told, Sakatal was merely born from Satak, but it's not told how many cycles he's been through, and his purpose to consume Aurbis. His parallel is to Alduin, obviously, but I think Alduin operates on a strict-nirn basis, while Sakatal's mission is to destroy all of creation. So they can revert to their primordial states, and be brought into the fold of Chaos or Stasis
>>
>>57938985
>>57938718

**Parallels**

The Elder Scrolls series is littered with parallels, but really, how is Lorkhan a parallel towards Akatosh? Lorkhan was created from Sithis, yes, but his purpose was to kill Anuiel, and yet he failed at this, and actually hid from the Daedra and found allies in the wanderers, the dwemer, and eventually, Akatosh himself. No, I don't think Lorkhan is our great evil.

Sakatal is the god of serpents, and Orgnum has a deep affiliation with them. One of his main allies is Boethiah for heaven's sake, snakes have a deep connection towards deceit and mistrust in human interpretation. I wish to look closer to this connection, for I am claiming Sakatal and orgnum are one in the same.. But am I?

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Kyne%27s_Challenge:_A_Hunter%27s_Companion/The_Black_Marsh

This is a story from ESO, specifically in the snake passage, it reveals that even in-universe there are theological debates on the origin of the Satakal and its connection with the Maormer. Perhaps we'll learn more in the next game, perhaps this mess of myth will never be learned, but, we do know that something is definitely here and I am definitely not crazy.. Yet..
>>
>>57938802
Tall Papa is not the Redguard interpretation of the Time-Dragon. Satakal is.
>>
What a load of Morihaus.
>>
>>57937094
I believe he spent his time trying to find a means to escape. I'm sure Mora didn't exactly make it easy.
>>
>>57934196
Alessia's apotheosis is the creation of the covenant between man and Akatosh, the creation of the Dragonblood. Consider the fact that this is TIME we're talking about here. We may see Dragonborns 'prior' to Alessia apotheosis but she is truly where it all begins (also Wulfharth is after Alessia).
>>57937031
Why the fuck is this meme still around? No, there is no difference between Dragonborns, period. Read the fucking text entitled "Book of the Dragonborn."
>>
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>>57920168
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>>57942971
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>>57937116
They had an influence but it had less to do with time and more with culture. Time started at Convention.
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>>57937094
well, he was just getting all the knowledge he could from the tentacle monster god himself
besides, time flows differently in oblivion, it probably didn't feel like four eras to him
>>
>>57938489
LOGH please go. People of various statuses and classes can be friends and good brothers too each other. It takes more effort, but it has often happened.
>>
>>57935128
Tends to happen when you’re a schizophrenic, near omnipotent being with multiple personality disorder
>>
Could Talos and Ebonarm, if they had become one entity, have their own separate avatars if the belief that the Last Dragonborn is the champion of Talos is correct? Would the battle between Dovahkiin and Ebony Warrior be the dueling of a god and his predecessor be seen as trying to undo the balance of the eight and one as it is known, so that Ebonarm might return after his displacement from the dragonbreak?
>>
So is Magnus a daedra? How come he never shows up in game?
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>>57946373
misread that as magnum and had very different ideas
no he isn't a daedra, he was still yoinked into participating in creation but abandoned earlier into the project
he's not seen for the same reason other Aedra aren't, they basically left except for a few
>>
>>57947568
but the arent the daedra the gods outside of mundus? wouldn't magnus have created his own realm like dagon, bal, etc?
>>
>>57947647
Daedra decided not to participate in making Mundus so they didn't get trapped, but they did set up camp around it to meddle with mortals
Magnus & friends retreated a bit too far and went back to Aetherius by ripping holes right through Oblivion (the sun and the stars)
>>
>>57947647
Magnus and the other Magna Ge are Et'ada, which are neither Aedra or Daedra technically. Magnus is from Aetherius, not Oblivion, like the Daedra.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Et%27Ada
>>
>>57947647
AEDRA, our ancestors. DEADRA, not our ancestors.

If they participated in creation, maybe Aedra. If they gave up part of themselves to make Mundus, definitely Aedra. If they had absolutely noting to do with the process whatsoever, Daedra.
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>Get the boots of blinding speed for the very first time and equip them after casting a 100% spell resistance spell
>tfw realize even with my super cheap levitation spell I turn into a fucking jet engine
Fug mang, you can break the game without even trying
>>
>>57948727
Easiest thing to do in Morrowind is the Soultrap glitch and a fortify skill.

Went around KOing people with one punch and then killing them with an ass-fisting as a naked orc. It was funny.

Pic related, if fisting a KOd person counts as rape.
>>
>>57916357
Argonian's are stupid fucking lizards, big smelly fucking scaley fucks. Only good for doing chores and even that they fuck up 90% of the time, fucking lizard slave faggots, good boots though.
>>
>>57948803
I wonder who could be behind this post.
>>
>>57947716
>deadra
Don't
>>
>>57925613
It gets easier after this one, just change the controls to modern ones, remember to swing, and you have the entire world before you.

I'd give you my key config, but I'm not sure which files are really responsible for it, anyway, this is my dosbox.conf https://pastebin.com/ZUfBwLtr
and this is my BETAPLYR file (it goes into arena2 folder) http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=94534924917840089201
>>
Speaking of Daedra, why are only Daedric lords considered gods? Isn't technically every scamp and clanfear an immortal god?
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>>57925613
>tfw i know my way out of privateers hold by heart
Something like this, maybe?
Daggerfall controls pretty well for a 22 years old game.
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>>57949001
Lesser beings created by the daedric princes out of boredom, need for workforce, shits and giggles, etc. Practically immortal, though regeneration takes time for some, or they simply cease to exist after killed in combat. Summoned minor daedra aren’t bound to mundus, so eventually return to oblivion upon death or their bought time is up
>>
>>57917503
>Morrowind
>comfy
Morrowind is too weird to be comfy, the coziest place on Tamriel is probably some Inn in Skyrim, with a warm bed near the fireplace while outside is snowing
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>>57949761
>Skyrim
>comfy

that's like saying Siberia is comfy
Bed near the fireplace? You'd probably get called a milk-drinker and get told to go back to where you came from. Even if you somehow managed to get that bed, and somehow sleep despite the noise of the drunk patrons, in the morning all the fleas and shit will be crawling all over you. In the morning you'd be served old cheese and Nord "Mead".

Nah, it's too far from civilization, unless you're in Solitude, and even then anywhere in Cyrodiil is better.
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>>57949761
I dunno, balmora or Suran could be pretty chill
>>
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>>57949761
>implying living inside a mushroom isn't the epitome of comfiness
Telavnni are literally living the fairytale, except with more backstabbing and slavery.
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>>57952230
>mfw my brother once built little me a mushroom house on the shivering isles
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>>57949761
>Morrowind is too weird to be comfy
Stoopid n'wah
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>>57953692
How does that gondola fit under the bridge? Also, somebody push that khajiit into the river
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>>57949761
>Be inbreed snow n'wah
>Freeze ass off wandering around frozen wasteland filled with cat slaves so retarded they're literal animals
>See shitty run down inn with a roof made out of weeds
>Go inside to be greeted by a bunch of even dumber snow n'wah making fun of you for not being cold enough
>Ask drunk n'wah at the desk for a room
>"Uuuggh, dat be ten septim, milkdrinker"
>Pay with your Imperial cuck money, buy a drink too
>N'wah alcohol so shit it doesn't even have magical properties, it just makes you an even dumber n'wah (by Azura, we're reaching levels of retardation that shouldn't be possible)
>Drink your shitty drink and go to bed
>Bed is filled with weeds, woven out of big cow pubic hair, and filled with tiny vampire silt striders
>Wake up in the morning with disease from vampire silt striders
Fuckin' n'wahs, when will they learn?
>>
>>57953815
This post is all fucnny and shit, but you're aware that ticks exist in Morrowind, right?
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Diseases#Yellow_Tick
>>
>>57953949
Do fleas exist in Morrowind though? Ticks and fleas are different things.
Honestly though I didn't but I just figured a Dunmer calling fleas "tiny vampire silt striders" was funny.
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>>57954003
>Well... one look at you, and anyone can see you're an experienced adventurer. That can be your cover identity. Around here, freelance adventurers are thick as fleas on a guar.
>No moon sugar? No moon sugar for poor Ra'Gruzgob? Damn fleas...
Seems so.
>>
>>57954070
Are there ants in Morrowind though? Can you find any evidence of ants in the dialogue?

of course there are ants on all continents,
same with fleas and all the other mundane insects
>>
>>57953815
Fucking kek
>>
>>57953949
>>57954003
What about bedbugs?
>>
Nords are the best race in TES. Prove me wrong.
>>
>>57956932
50% resistance to cold is not better than 25% resistance to all magic
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>>57956932
They're the easily tricked low IQ red-necks of Tamriel. Who have to have a God intervene whenever they Fuck up(and they always will)
Now Redguards are where it's at.
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>>57956942
GTFOH subhuman scum

>>57957015
cuck spotted
>>
>>57957034
>literally cuck themselves because Nerevar beat them too hard
>>
>>57957015
>Who have to have a God intervene whenever they Fuck up(and they always will)
That's all humanity though

>>57957034
>GTFOH subhuman scum
Talos was a Breton :^)
>>
>>57957129
>Talos was a Breton :^)
>was

>>57957093
>Chimer
>extinct
>Nords
>still best race
kek
>>
>>57957034
>cuck
You assumed I'm white. Even if it isn't the Redguards it's the Dunmer after them for that maximum flavour of culture and lore and then the Khajit/Argonians after them for their lore and aesthetic.

Nords are just vikings.
>MUH honor
>MUH Talos
>MUH cold northern territory
I played Nords since Daggerfall to even Skyrim but nowadays I mix it up for maximum roleplaying potential. Playing a Nord as anything but a retarded warrior or battlehardened fighter feels....out of place.

I honestly just like Redguards since I dig their lore and aesthetic and VIKINGS have been done to death.
>>
>>57957220
Stop reading at "You assumed I'm white"
>>
>>57957260
same
>>
Imperials > Nords
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>>57957034
>cuck
Fuck off back to /pol/ you shit flinging troglodyte. Redguards =/= Niggers, and your inability to comprehend that speaks volumes.
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>>57958047
If it looks like a duck...
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>>57958047
What's your favourite race in TES anon?
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>>57958074
Redguards have more japanese influence than black american influence.
>>
Why did we have to get stuck with Redguards? Left-handed Elves would have been much more interesting
>>
>>57958653
>elves
>but they use their left hands
Amazing
>>
>>57958952
>guards
>but they're red

wow
>>
>>57958974
Oh let me try.
>DarkElves
Elves but they're dark
>>
>>57958653
It's a cautionary tale. Why do you think "left"-handed elves and their whole homeland were eventually destroyed by brown-skinned people?
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>>57958974
But Redguards are brown.
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>>57959341
But Left-handed Elves are predominantly right-handed
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>>57958974
>elves
>but they're high
what an interesting design
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>>57958653
Redguards are actually really cool though, gods forbid we need another mer race with no history
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>>57903173
Shut up. We have had this discussion for seven years. There's nothing more to say.
>>
>>57909876
Only if you play him as a psychopath.
>>
>>57890338
Spell tomes aren't instantly learned.

Have you ever seen mages in the games use more than 5 spells or looked in the CK to see what they have on their spell list?

Books are only there as a representation for gameplay purposes.

How does magic work?

It shines through the holes in the sky/stars & sun and is then being manipulated and converted to the needs of the mage.
There are various forms of magic such as dwemen tonal architecture, ayelid star magic, yokudan swordsingers. nords shouting, psyjic disciplines etc.

Btw. the psijic disciplines really remind me of the fact that TES is basically a Xianxia universe.
>>
>>57891945
Morrorwind was great but it's outdated as hell now.

Fuck it even Skyrim is allrady 8 years old.
>>
>>57960345
>outdated
If you're an ADHD /v/tard, then maybe.
>>
>>57957015
>complain about gods intervening to save a races ass
>Redguard's literally have a god whose sole role it is to find a way to save their ass
>>
>>57960375
Dude, it's a VIDEO game.
>>
>>57916357
Lizard shaped golems for Tree-gods to larp as humanoids.
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>>57960528
Even worse, it's a god of "make way" basically god of give me what I want, be it my sister back (Cyrus) freedom (Redguards vs Thalmor) or genocide of their enemies (Leftie Elves)
>>
>>57960569
Yes, and these can't get "outdated", unless you're the kind of fag that cares about muh graphics or wants gameplay simplified for braindead children.
Even then there are mods for this.
>>
>>57917503
Telvani owned eastern Islands.

>no empire
>no thalmor
>no rulers who care about shit
>just free untamed nature not infested with natives
>can study with Telvani wizards (just don't let them experiment on you)
>>
>>57960628
>Free untamed nature
Fuck you Greyskin, your nature sucks.
>>
>>57938249
Valenwood for civil war canibal edition?
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>>57956932
Nope.
Magic Balkanites are much better.
>>
>>57960715
The islands aren't even ashlands.
They are closer to the Canary Islands in terms of enviroment.

>Not being a greyskined conquistador
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>>57960345
skyrim isn't even seven years old yet, and I wouldn't really call morrowind outdated, excepting the graphics, but those can be easily "fixed"
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>>57962627
Morrowind definitely has outdated mechanics, like accuracy stats in a real time action RPG and an utterly awful quest system without the slightest method of navigation.
No it wasn't fucking "immersive" take off your nostalgia goggles it was asinine.
>>
>>57962896
>like accuracy stats in a real time action RPG
It's an RPG, your irl ability to hit shouldn't be the only factor

>an utterly awful quest system without the slightest method of navigation.
>No it wasn't fucking "immersive"
Yes, it is immersive. Git gud
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>>57962896
>without the slightest method of navigation
wow reading is hard
>>
>>57962926
No, you're objectively wrong here. If I look like I am hitting an opponent in a 1st/3rd person shooter, which the Elder Scrolls are, in terms of perspective anyway, I should ALWAYS hit it. I don't care how much or how little damage I do, THAT can be a variable, or dependent on perks or whatever, that's fine. Unless I can SEE that I missed, it's just bullshit. There is nothing IMMERSIVE about hitting something for it to not react at all. Add a dodging mechanic to your ideal rpg vidya if you need to be disappointed in combat so badly.
>>
>>57962933
>Go to that grey hill with the mushroom by the river
>No, not that one.
>>
>>57963000
Would changing from "miss" to just 1 damage make you feel better?
>>
>>57963032
Yes. Was that so hard, Kirkbride? To admit hands don't just pass through solid matter on chance?
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>>57963000
>If I look like I am hitting an opponent in a 1st/3rd person shooter, which the Elder Scrolls are, in terms of perspective anyway
not all first person games were shooters, you know, or even have to play like one
I will admit it's kind of a problem for some if you don't SEE the dodging but I mean, you could just use your imagination
>>57963045
wait, so you'd rather a have a sword do barely any damage than just think they dodged it?
>>
>>57963065
I'd be cool with SEEING them dodge it, if they didn't do it too frequently/easily. If the game is really immersive, I might just think "Spry bastard", instead of "cheating AI!".
>>
>>57963065
A bad example of dodging would probably be skyrim and it's arrows. I swear I saw a Frost Troll levitate to my left to dodge an arrow.
>>
>>57958974
>Elves
>but they’re semi-aquatic

Brilliant
>>
>>57963092
People dodging is only really a nuisance early game if you have shit skills. I've never had major problems with dodging unless I'm using a weapon I have no skill in.
Honestly, if you think people dodge too easily, just play a Redguard specialized in Long Blade. You shouldn't be missing as much as you make it sound.
>>57963113
I think that might just be Skyrim's arrows being weird in general rather than dodging mechanics.
>>
>>57963198
>just play a Redguard
Why did they make Redguards so overpowered on Morrowind?
>>
>>57963364
muh sword
>>
>>57963364
I guess Kirkbride just really liked nuclear niggas
>>
>>57963113
>shoot at some bandit fucker from the shadows into his back
>he sidesteps last second and you narrowly miss their spine
>whole encampment is on alert now
Fuck
>>
>>57963198
You can try to shoot someone without being detected, and they’ll move out of the way last second. Doesn’t always happen so it’s probably just an error in the code, but annoying when you’re trying not to alert everyone
>>
>>57963877
>Kill cam happens
>You miss the shot
wtf
>>
>>57963917
It wouldn't be so frustrating if whenever it happened, the bandit screamed like Bruce Lee or something.
>>
>>57963917
Oh, you mean that bullshit. It's even worse when it does that "cinematic" stuff and you still miss.
>>
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Morrowind is absolutely outdated, the combat and most of the gameplay is abysmally bad. Great story, characters, and world, though.

That's why I'm excited for Skywind. I'd try Morroblivion but I think the Oblivion system of enemy scaling is still present
>>
>>57964086
>the combat and most of the gameplay is abysmally bad
It's not abysmally bad. It's not great, but it works, it just takes some getting used to when you're coming to it from the present, like any game from an older era.
>>
>>57964188
there are older games with better combat, there's really no excuse
>>
>>57964086
Morrowind is not outdated. It used a different mechanic for determining hits with attacks, but it's not outdated. It's not used any more because it's unpopular with retards who can't understand that not everything could be represented in a game like this back in '02, and as such, mechanics such as opposing stat checks had to be used in an RPG to determine if you hit or missed with an attack.

Also, if you know how to play the game, attacking isn't an issue at all. Play to your strengths instead of selecting a random ass weapon and expecting to be good with it right away.

The gameplay is also not outdated and I'd like you to provide some examples as to why you think it is.
>>
>>57964086
>Skywind
>>
>>57964227
>It used a different mechanic for determining hits with attacks, but it's not outdated.
Yes it is, it's archaic and doesn't fit with the 3D style gameplay. Morrowind's current system is more fit for a game like Divinity or turn based games.
>It's not used any more because it's unpopular with retards who can't understand that not everything could be represented in a game like this back in '02,
So it sounds like you're contradicting yourself here, but regardless I'll tell you it isn't used anymore because it's fucking awful. There's a good reason we don't see it anymore, because it's fucking stupid.
>>57964237
Not saying skyrim has good gameplay, but it'll be leaps and bounds better than morrowind's
>>
>>57964285
A game's inner machinations should align with what's going on the screen. If I land a hit on the screen, it should land a hit on the actual enemy.

You're right that it's stupid. Imagine if when you play Super Mario 25% of the time you land on a Goomba or whatever it doesn't actually hurt them unless you have a Mushroom. That would be retarded.
>>
>>57964345
Super Mario is also, you know, a platformer and not an RPG, dice rolls are kind of an RPG staple
>>
>>57964285
Morrowind's system was used because they were making an RPG, where your stats determined who good you were at a specific thing. In this case, we're discussing hitting shit with a weapon. To show this, the considered several stats and elements about your character to determine just how you might hit something, and how much damage you would do if you hit. Just because not every attack deals damage, or NPCs don't jump out of the way when you make an attack that misses does not mean that the mechanics used are outdated.

Over the years Bethesda has moved to a much more action/adventure oriented gameplay style in an effort (which was successful) to increase game sales. This is because most people don't want to bother tracking stats or roleplaying, they just want a sandbox world to dick around in. This also doesn't mean that Morrowind's mechanics or gameplay are outdated, but that one system of mechanics/gameplay are more accessible and popular than another.

These systems are not outdated just because you prefer the way games released later do things differently.
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>>57964416
dice rolls are not a requirement for RPG's, look at Soulsborne games and the Witcher series

>>57964426
see above, there are better ways of having the same or similar system. If you hit something it should hit, but depending on how proficient you are with it can determine things like attack speed, damage, dodge speed, block speed, block effectiveness, stamina use and reduction, etc.

>This is because most people don't want to bother tracking stats or roleplaying,
That is an entirely different point and just plain wrong. You can have all of these things and still have MUCH better gameplay, they are not mutually exclusive

>These systems are not outdated just because you prefer the way games released later do things differently.
If they are inherently flawed then they are outdated
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>>57964416
Okay fine.

Let's say for Dark Souls when you swing your weapon and are close enough to land a hit, you won't land the hit 100% of the time. The higher your Dex, the higher chance of landing a hit.

Or Fallout New Vegas. When you punch someone, even if your fist slams into someone it won't do any damage sometimes, depending on your Unarmed Skill, Agility, and Perception.

And in both cases the enemies won't visually do anything different, your sword or fist just passes through like nothing happened.

And that's not even mentioning how the stab/slash/chop divide didn't even do much for gameplay besides make you tick the always use best attack. Even Skyrim's mediocre combat made it's different attacks actually have different purposes.
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>>57964508
>Let's say for Dark Souls when you swing your weapon and are close enough to land a hit, you won't land the hit 100% of the time. The higher your Dex, the higher chance of landing a hit.
DS is not an RPG, and Dexterity affects damage
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>>57964555
>DS is not an RPG
Son, we're going to have to talk
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>>57964555
Dark Souls is an RPG dude.

And Dex being used for damage is 100% irrelevant to this. We're talking about landing hits.

Also, New Vegas example.
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>>57964583
>>57964597
Dark Souls has no roleplaying, it's an action game
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>>57964501
>dice rolls are not a requirement for RPG's, look at Soulsborne games and the Witcher series
Yes, let's look at games that came out seven (witcher) and nine years later (dark souls) as a comparison and are also more focused on action/adventure side of the genre than on the RPG side.

>>57964501
>If they are inherently flawed then they are outdated
Flawed and outdated are COMPLETELY different things. The fact that you're trying to change the argument now just proves to me that you don't know what you're talking about.
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>>57964608
>Dark Souls has no roleplaying
Please stop saying this like it's a fact, for your sake. It's making you look like a dullard

>>57964610
>Yes, let's look at games that came out seven (witcher) and nine years later (dark souls) as a comparison and are also more focused on action/adventure side of the genre than on the RPG side.
As I've said before, older games have had better gameplay, there's no excuse, look at maximo

>Flawed and outdated are COMPLETELY different things.
How are they not? I'm not trying to change the argument, isn't something outdated when it ceases to work and is done better by other things?
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>>57964508
>>57964501
both of you use souls games as a point so I'm going to address both of you at once
those are action RPGs, morrowind plays more like a cRPG with all the rolls
just like how fallout new vegas is an action RPG, and fallout 1 and 2 are cRPGs, where you CAN hit someone and not do any damage depending on your stats
I think you're finding an issue with the perspective of morrowind being in first person rather than isometric, so you expect it to play more like a first person action game rather than a RPG with dice rolls and stuff
which is perfectly understandable if you're used to games being like that, really, although I personally like morrowind's combat
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>>57964608
Morrowind:
>You are prisoner but have been pardoned, enjoy Morrowind
>You are prisoner with undead curse, enjoy the prison
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>>57964686
Second one should have Dark Souls above it, but you get the idea.
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>>57964650
>look at maximo
An action adventure game.

>As I've said before, older games have had better gameplay
Please name more than just Maximo.

>isn't something outdated when it ceases to work and is done better by other things?
The problem is that Morrowinds system still works. Is it flawed? Yes. Is it outdated? No. You could implement Morrowinds system in a modern game with little to no tweaks and it would work just fine as long as you're not going for an action/adventure feel to how the game is played.
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>>57964675
>I think you're finding an issue with the perspective of morrowind being in first person rather than isometric, so you expect it to play more like a first person action game rather than a RPG with dice rolls and stuff
Yes, because there is a disconnect between what it seen and what is happening mechanically
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>>57964650
>Please stop saying this like it's a fact, for your sake. It's making you look like a dullard
Then show how is DS an RPG
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>>57964704
>An action adventure game.
So?

>Please name more than just Maximo.
Why should I? One example is all that's needed

>The problem is that Morrowinds system still works. Is it flawed? Yes. Is it outdated? No. You could implement Morrowinds system in a modern game with little to no tweaks and it would work just fine as long as you're not going for an action/adventure feel to how the game is played

No, people would complain the game is broken or unfair, this is what I mean by it being outdated. If it had oblivion's combat, which is almost identical, it would be fine. Even in release it was flawed, and now that there are other Elder Scrolls games that do it better, it's outdated
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>>57964727
Because you make character and build decisions. Making certain allies, joining certain covenants, customizing your character's appearance and playstyle, getting different moral endings
Have you even played these games?
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>>57964708
Is it so hard for you to use your imagination? Just because you can't "see" something doesn't mean it isn't happening.
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>>57964774
>Have you even played these games?
I have 100+ hours in every game of the trilogy
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>>57964784
>Is it so hard for you to use your imagination? Just because you can't "see" something doesn't mean it isn't happening.
no, it's because it isn't fair and doesn't properly communicate skill given it's 3D nature
>>
>>57964727
Not that anon, but I do consider DS an RPG.

At it's most basic, your character is their stats. Your choices on how those stats are distributed, determines how your character is played. This is the very core of the mechanics behind RPGs in general.

Now, DS and the other souls/borne games don't have branching story paths beyond some really simple stuff, and you don't choose a background or anything in the beginning of the game, but if you know anything about the lore you can role play as a character from one of the any number of lands, you can choose if you want to be fast and use lighter weapons of if you want to hit like a truck with Smoughs hammer, etc. Hell, every DS game also had multiple endings you can choose, and DS 3 has 4 endings, one of which you seriously have to go out of your way to achieve.

DS is an RPG even if it leans very heavily towards the action/adventure side in terms of gameplay.

>>57964756
>So?
So it's an entirely different type of game altogether.

>Why should I? One example is all that's needed
Yeah, no. I'm done. You're retarded.
>>
>>57964811
then I shouldn't have had to explain it to you
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>>57964812
>it isn't fair
What are you talking about? It's literally just math and dice rolls fudging things in the favor of the thing with higher stats.
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>>57964828
>Yeah, no. I'm done. You're retarded.
Well fuck you to, sorry your precious childhood wonder game plays like a piece of shit and is heavily outdated, go fuck yourself
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>>57964847
Sorry you can't back up your side of an argument and you don't understand what "outdated" means.
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>>57964842
It's chance based, which is inherently unfair. given it's gameplay style like mentioned earlier there are better was of showing how effective or not you are at combat >>57964501
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>>57964856
I literally explained why, Oblivion outdates morrowind, but you're too dumb to understand that
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>>57964877
>Oblivion outdates morrowind
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>>57964860
it's not entirely chance based though, your stats DO matter a substantial bit
>>57964877
>oblivion outdates morrowind
ah yeah, damage sponges are so much better than dice rolls
>>
This thread can't die quick enough.
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>>57964893
>I'm wrong, better post a reaction image
I thought /tg/ was a better place than this. Alas, every board is swarmed with retards
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>>57964897
>ah yeah, damage sponges are so much better than dice rolls
Yes
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>>57964915
>Unironically believing damage sponges are better than a system you can influence and become much better at by learning the mechanics and using them to your advantage.

>Thinking Morrowind's system is bad beyond level 5 if you have even the slightest idea of how to play an RPG.
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>>57964915
but that's silly, damage sponges are far worse for gameplay than dice rolls are
>>57964899
eh, pointless arguments with no resolution are kind of an imageboard staple
>>
I've only played Skyrim dbh
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>>57964966
I can't fix your shit taste
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>>57964966
>than a system you can influence and become much better at by learning the mechanics and using them to your advantage.
Like Oblivion?
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>>57965026
>Like Skyrim*?
fify
>>
Also doesn't souls games do a diceroll for staggering? Even though you clearly just got fucking impaled? And literal invincibility frames?
Haven't played any final fantasy games lately, but they probably still do diceroll dodges too I'm guessing. Ff13 did at least.
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>>57965052
>Also doesn't souls games do a diceroll for staggering?
No, you get staggered after your poise is reduce to zero

>And literal invincibility frames?
When you dodge yes
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>>57965046
So further proof morrowind is outdated
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>>57965026
Like Morrowind, where the enemies weren't damage sponges, and you could make yourself absurdly strong if you know what you're doing. Not even abusing glitches either; doing everything that's within your regular ability to do in Morrowind can result in you becoming unstoppable. Oblivion shits all over this idea by having enemies scale with you to the point that leveling up and getting better at your skills becomes a hindrance.
>>
>>57965000
skyrim's fun
shallow, shallow fun, but fun nonetheless
>>57965026
even when you're at your best in oblivion, enemies are still kind of spongy. it's not as shallow as skyrim, at least.
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>>57965080
>Like Morrowind, where the enemies weren't damage sponges, and you could make yourself absurdly strong if you know what you're doing
Doesn't matter, there is always a statistical probability that you could miss every attack and die
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>>57965102
>there is always a statistical probability that you could miss every attack and die
No there literally isn't. Once you actually start leveling, and put points into your character appropriately, you can get to a point where you literally cannot miss anything any more.
>>
Honestly, half the time I have this argument, shitters don't realize enemies can miss too.
Because of them, we can't have Dodge as an RPG skill and have to use it as a player skill.
>>
>>57964345
>A game's inner machinations should align with what's going on the screen
Because things like invincibility frames aren't a thing in any games, ever.
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>>57903173
The stormcloak ideal of religious freedom is understandable, but the thalmor had the Empire over a barrel, so the anger at them is misplaced and better directed at the Thalmor.

HOWEVER, Ulfric is a despicable racist egomaniac.

The stormcloak ideals that rebels join up for are reasonable, but while they're being led against the Empire and by Ulfric, they wont be in the right.
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>>57965102
an incredibly, incredibly small chance, yes, but so?
>>57965131
this
enemies miss all the fucking time in morrowind
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>>57965136
>Ulfric is egomaniac
nice meme
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>>57965128
IF you leveled up, and only in specific ways
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>>57965195
Okay, he's still a despicable racist.
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>>57965226
This I can agree
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>>57965154
I love standing in a mob, laughing at their pathetic attempts to stab the shadow that is my existence.
Can't do that in Skyrim without being unable to hit them either.
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>>57965206
You do know just how little the dice roll adds to the fights right? Yes, at level 1 you're a pissant who was just kicked out of prison after being there for an indeterminate amount of time. You fucking suck at level 1 and having no skill with weapons and missing an attack here and there until you practice with it, and get better at using it is completely logical.

You, Anon, could probably drop the sharp end of a Nordic battle axe on a sleeping mudcrab, but unless you practice with it, you would always miss with it in a real fight in any meaningful capacity.
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>>57964756
>People besides me knowing about Maximo.

What world is this
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>>57965206
No, levelling isn't nearly as bullshit and micromanaged as it is in Oblivion
I went into Morrowind as a Breton battlemage with long blade and pretty early on reached the point where I wasn't really missing at all without managing my level ups or anything like that
>>57965226
pretty much everyone in elder scrolls is, though
hjalti hated orsimer, wulfhaarth hated dunmer, and zurin... well I don't know what he hated, he was just a mage
dunmer hate argonians, bretons and orsimer are always fighting, and khajiit are high as fuck but I'm sure they make fun of man and mer on occasion
racism is kind of an elder scrolls staple
that doesn't make ulfric particularly unique or egregious
>>
>>57965306
It's not even racism unless you're specifically part of the same race. Ulfric doesn't have much trouble with other human races, he just wants them in their specific geological regions, and will even help them liberate their own regions if they side with his rebellion, down the line. Mer making fun of Orcs is racism, but then again, they deserve it.
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>>57965373
>they deserve it
No, they don't
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>>57965080
To be fair, you can do complete bullshit in Oblivion like 100% chameleon enchantments and damage reflection, but nothing on the level of what morrowind did.
>>
>>57965226
Nothing wrong with that.
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>>57963976
*Thwack*
>HUH?!
>WHO’S THERE? SHOW YOURSELF!
motherfucker you had your back to me and you did some HxH Nin shit to dodge that arrow, but you can’t find me in a dimly lit corridor without running into me, and even then it took you a couple seconds to realize you ran into someone
>>
Did you guys kill Paarthurnax?
>>
>>57966210
nah
>>
This general has gone to shit in the last few months.
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>>57966210
No, not in my normal play-throughs. The blades can get fucked.
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>>57966210
Once. Felt like shit afterwards
>>
>>57966232
it's not really as active as it used to be, yeah
>>57966119
it's astonishing how blind everyone in skyrim is
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>>57965133
Those happen during a dodging animation.

Morrowind has no animation or indicator for a dodge.
>>
Why did they get rid of the ability to write a custom class description in later games? This shit is top-tier.
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>>57967449
>later games
Skyrim.
>custom class
There is no classes in Skyrim.
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>>57967449
Laziness, I guess. Although, you're the only person I've ever seen actively missing it.
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>>57967518
Pls no bully
It's just a neat feature man, write some flavour text about your class or your character, write a whole bio, whatever, really feels like you're writing up a character sheet.
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>>57967684
I ain't bullying, man. I've just never seen anyone ever really mention it.
I doubt classes are returning for TES:VI, so I doubt it will come back.
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>all this shitting on MW combat
I want skykids to leave.
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>>57968042
>I want skykids to leave.
Even though you typed that, you have to get your Arguing skill higher to actually make us leave.
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>>57968114
OR I could smear bug shit on my face to make myself more attractive.
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>>57968042
I just want to talk lore and worldbuilding and putting them in tabletop games.

All y'all's game talk is just a distraction.
>>
>DS
>an RPG

it's not, when I play it it feels closer to a mario game
I mean, yeah you can create your character, and then you go on a video game action adventure. There is no roleplaying, it's all set up in a true japanese fashion to feel like a video game. If character creation makes an RPG, then FIFA is one.
>>
>>57963011
>Follow the river to where it bends back north nearest the largest mushroom ever your eyes have beheld. 'Neath that lies the entrance to a cavern that--
>YOU MEAN THIS MUSHROOM?
>No, first you must--
>THIS GAME IS STUPID
>>
>>57970151
It is tiring to read instructions about something in the wilderness though, like finding the cave with moon and star - I thought it'd be cool to find it, but every rock in existence look like teeth of the wind, and then the text gives you no sense how far everything is from one another, so walking half the map to the cave is the last thing you'd expect
>>
>>57970246
>I have geographical cretinism therefore the game is bad




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