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Previous thread: >>57918544
>Pastebin:
https://pastebin.com/7HiVphFm
>News
http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-the-secret-of-vensens-tomb-a-pugmire-jumpstart/
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-wraith-the-oblivion-20th-anniversary-editio/posts/2110993
>This week's Monday Meeting Notes:
http://theonyxpath.com/canis-minor-ly-monday-meeting-notes/
>Question:
Where did Technocracy come from?
>New Geist preview
http://theonyxpath.com/one-foot-in-the-grave-geist-2e/
>New Deviant preview
http://theonyxpath.com/variations-on-a-theme/
>General Creation Kit
https://mega.nz/#F!FWJgBTbb!f7d5rARWHYzuI8-8aI-Bxw
>>
Can anyone share the Trinity Aeon Kickstarter Manuscript Preview Part 5? Thanks!
>>
What´s the general opinion on fan games around here? Been reading through Princess: The Hopeful lately.
>>
Do vampires have friends? Like, legit friendships, with one another or with some random human or whatever.

I know people bring up romance and shit, but rarely does actual friendship get brought up in these threads.

I wonder how you actually go about forming a friendship with one of the VtM vampires. What kind of a person do you have to be, regardless of your character's background, for a Lasombra or a Tzimisce to consider you a friend?
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>>57955204

Can you ever really be friends with your food?
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>>57955204
Yes. Every single one of them is exceptional and defies everything Clan and Sect impresses on them.
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>>57955273

Ask the Koreans.
>>
>>57955204
>Do vampires have friends? Like, legit friendships, with one another or with some random human or whatever.
Probably yeah but mostly true only for fledglings and neonates, you'll see Anarchs buddying with each other and mortal punks; unlikely the older the vampire gets though, eventually they'll become sufficiently paranoid to largely remove themselves from the public (just about like anyone who has a vested interest in living forever); with the people they can trust counted in a hand, if even that.
>>
Wraith20 is really, really good.
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>>57955204
Sabbat certainly would have a lot of friendships because of the Vaulderie.
>>
>>57955677

I said legit friendships, not camaraderie enforced via blood bond rituals.
>>
>>57955771
Those can be legitimate friendships though? Just because you have the Vaulderie doesn't mean you automatically buddy buddy up with someone. Some people hate people because of the Vaulderie, but feel compelled to look out and help them.

Besides, are you telling me a Tzimisce elder doesn't hit the town with a Toreador Antitribu every now and then?
>>
Are the british all vampires?

They live on an island with no sunlight and eat blood pudding.

The queen has also been around strangely long.
>>
Other than merits, are there any examples in oWoD of Vampires and Werewolves being friends?
>>
Could we leverage the fact that Brucato has crossed the line to full blown no shit Holocaust denial to make an argument to OPP to finally ditch his hack ass, to the benefit of all game lines?
>>
does anyone have any links to the black dog books? they are not in the pastebin and i don't remember what i saved mine on.
>>
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>>57955990
I really hate it when SJWs and /pol/tards invade tabletop, especially World of Darkness. How butthurt do you have to be to get mad over the fact a Jew ghost isn't stated?
>>
>>57955990
>Could we leverage the fact that Brucato has crossed the line to full blown no shit Holocaust denial to

Really??
>>
>>57955990
I think you'd have a hard time mobilizing the kind of backlash to Wraith that would be enough to get much response.
>>
>>57955990

Casual antisemitism is not only common, but encouraged, among much of the hard left OPP/WW crowd. Brucato will not suffer any consequences. If his attitude or writing was problematic, Rich would have actually edited M20, and we all know that didn't happen.

The only way Brucato will get the boot is if he's accused of something utterly horrible and unforgivable like rape or addressing some snowflake with the wrong pronoun.
>>
>>57956124
>The only way Brucato will get the boot is if he's accused of something utterly horrible and unforgivable like rape
Wasn't he already at one point?
>>
>>57956124
That's why I think this is a unique chance. The kind of antisemitism that SJWs like to advocate is the kind that can be dressed up as concern for some minority further up the Ladder of Victimization that the Jews ("it's not that I hate Jews, I just think Israel should be nuked because of how they're treating the poor, innocent Palestinians"). Holocaust denial can't really be presented as benefiting any minority, so it doesn't fly even with the left.
>>
>>57956193
>it's not that I hate Jews, I just think Israel should be nuked because of how they're treating the poor, innocent Palestinians

Nuking israel is a fucking retard idea (especially if that is your motivation for it needed to be done), but its not really antisemitic per se.
>>
>>57956344
You'd be surprised how willing people are to confuse "Israel" and the "Jews", in both directions (i.e. what Israel does reflects on the Jews, you can legitimize your hatred of Jews by claiming you hate Israel), when it's psychologically convenient.
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>>57955924
Define "friends"; in Dark Alliance: Vancouver the Kindred and teh Garou share Vancounver with peace ensured by treaties, the book even opens the possibility for mixed packs of werewolves and vampires.
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>>57956491
How the fuck does that even happen?
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>>57956518

First rule of Metaplot is don't question the Metaplot.

If it makes sense, you're obviously doing something wrong.
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Going to play my first ventru, what are the most fun/best feeding restrictions? Shuld it have with the char to do or be "random"?
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>>57956518
>>57955924
>>57956541
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>>57956812
I think you should roll for it, that adds a lot more soul to a character.
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>>57956863
Is there a table somewhere? If you have a link id love to take a look.
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>>57956812
People using cocaine.
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Why the fuck did OPP step backwards to rewriting the core rules in each and every splat book again? The system in 1e was better, you didn't have to waste space giving a condensed version of the system for every single core.
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>>57957057
People complained at them for years that they had to buy two core rulebooks to play CofD.
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So apparently this was a thing?
>>
>>
>>57955001
>>57957570
Once again, I forget to check. Dammit
Also trinity core all in one
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A'ight idea for a one-shot. Cupid is actually a Magath of Love and Archery. He was banished long ago but he gets to remanifest every year on february 14th.

You need to hunt the fucker down and send him packing before things get out of control.
>>
>>57957570

Thanks, Anon!
>>
tfw no Guide to the Nephandi
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>>57959135
No worries. As far as I'm aware I've posted them all so far, and I'll keep that up, so don't worry about asking. Don't know how much of aeon they're actually going to preview, kinda doubt it's gonna be all eleven chapters
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>>57959195
why need a guide when you can live it
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>>57959195
This always struck me as weird. There's like 20 different books for the Wyrm alone, but no Nephandi love?
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>>57959534
What's this about? INB4 "The Conspiracy Against the Human Race"
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>>57960030
>The Conspiracy against the Human Race
sets out what is perhaps the most sustained
challenge yet to the intellectual blackmail that would oblige us to be eternally grateful for
a “gift” we never invited. Being alive is
not
all right: this simple
not
encapsulates the
temerity of thinking better than any platitude about the tragic nobility of a life
characterized by a surfeit of suffering, frustration, and self-deceit. There is no nature worth
revering or rejoining; there is no self to be re-enthroned as captain of its own fate; there is
no future worth working towards or hoping for. Life, in Ligotti’s outsized stamp of
disapproval, is MALIGNANTLY USELESS
>>
Idea: start off a Hunter game to get a new group into the system and setting
e.g. simple mystery/monster hunt, shit hits the fan etc.

Then have them Awaken either together or at different stages and make it a bit more freeform from there.

dogshit?
>>
>>57960095
do you like it?
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>>57960095
Fuck that shit.
>>
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I think the premise of VtM is ridiculous. I just can't suspend my willful disbelief over it. No one, anywhere has ever seen or heard about vampires? Not one person? Not a single vampire, thin-blood, or ghoul has ever broken ranks to tell people about vampires, especially in the information age, and ESPECIALLY when it seems like the sabbat will just let any asshole join? Why is the Society of Leopold or other witch hunters not shouting it from the rooftops?

and so forth

However, I very much like the intrigue and politics of VtM. Secret civil wars, Independent Clans, cults, Secret societies within secret societies and so forth.

Is there any way that I can play this game, or find another game like it, without all the things I think are dumb?
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>>57959195
Aren't they covered in both of the Books of Madness editions?
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>>57960621
I tend to run with the explenation that there are methuselahs whacking down high-level obfuscate/dominate effects to keep people from noticing/remembering about vampires existance. So, no matter how much evidence there is, the idea never really 'takes hold'.
No, those powers don't exist in any book, it's merely a bandaid to keep the world making sense.
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>>57960621
>no one has ever seen or heard about vampires

But they explicitly have though. Why do you think hunters are a thing? It's just that society as a greater whole isn't aware of them. No one's going to believe the crazy guy on the street who swears up and down that a shambling corpse has been feeding him its blood -- sure, leaks occur and the Masquerade is broken, but in the end common human disbelief and skepticism can patch it up quite easily. And when it doesn't? Well, that's what you have professionals for: make the blabbermouths (Kindred or human) disappear, make them stay quiet with a little Presence/Dominate or a friendly blood bond, or wipe their minds. On top of that, if you take into account the lore of the greater setting as a whole instead of treating it as isolated then you have a whole other extremely powerful and influential group who wants to keep society in the dark about the vampiric condition: the Technocracy. It's no wonder then that whatever small amount of evidence online that isn't just dismissed as being staged or fake ends up disappearing as if it were never there with no questioning its absence save a select "crazy" few... and when the Technocracy slacks, you have experimental Thaumaturgical Paths that solely exist to manipulate the net and use it as a conduit.

Honestly, all things considered, it'd almost be ridiculous if the existence of Kindred WASN'T a secret. A couple of random self-destructive Neonates in Nowheresville are going to lose every time to the horde of Cammies, NWO Operatives, and ravenous internet debaters ready to pounce on their ass at the slightest hint of the existence of Cainites. So I don't really see why the premise is so unfeasible.

All that being said though, just play the game in the Dark Ages setting if you can't suspend your disbelief for Modern Night. The sects don't exist back then though: if you want Camarilla vs Sabbat then maybe look into Victorian Era Vampire.
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>>57960621
At large the Masquerade regulates itself, the Kindred are entrenched in many goverments and corporations and clean up whenever a thin-blood, ghoul or something else messes up. The few ones that somehow realize a greater conspiracy are taken as seriously as flat-earthers; hell even in our world there are those that claim aliens, vampires and witches exist... does anyone pay them any attention?
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>>57960994
Thank you for affirming my personal feeling on the matter

>>57960996
The bottom line is that's way too many people for any vast conspiracy to survive. Think about your friends. Think about that one blabermouth guy who just can't keep the lid on ANYTHING. Multiply that ratio by the population of the conspiracy and as big as this one is, it just doesn't work

I could go on complaining about what I don't like, but that really isn't my point. I just don't like the premise but I really love the actual game setting. I just can't get into it.
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>>57961102
No one has ever captured a vampire and been like: hey look this person is literally made of blood?
>>
>>57961228
And furthermore, why would they keep it a secret if they did? It seems grossly irresponsible to keep the fact that there are beings who will literally devour you a secret from the general public.
>>
>>57960621
It's a very silly thing to assume that even 1% of the WoD is somehow left unnoticeable by the masses. To say otherwise is to discredit just how powerful the modern age is with information. All it takes is one monster to pull off something obscene and have it spread like wildfire.

At least Ascension fixes this issue with consensual reality. Mostly.
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>>57955204
It really depends on the character, clan and the ideology they follow.

I once played i brujah in a dark ages game. Who ended up living into his elder years, and forming a very strong and lasting friendship with neonate.

It can happen, but it depends on the vampire and how far removed they are from their human and emotional side.
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>>57961272
I'm sorry I didn't mean to keep harping on it but it's frustrating that I just can't get my head around it. Maybe anon above is right and I should just play Dark Ages.

Still, I think something would be lost for me in the social aspects of the game.
>>
>>57961228
Yeah, they have; mostly goverments (which Kindred and Technocracy infiltrated alike, that are intent on keeping this a secret for the sake of other); the sporadic hunter or other mortals, as soon as they privately messaged their friends to come check what they had found or something of the sort, would be immediately on the radar of Technocracy.
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>>57961272
>To say otherwise is to discredit just how powerful the modern age is with information.
Not when information is controlled so deeply by Technocracy they even managed to change Earth's consensual reality by alienating mankind.
>>
>>57961312
You bring up a good point though. No shame in that. Urban fantasy just doesn't work realistically speaking, even for something that's inherently unrealistic.
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>>57961212
The Technocracy controls every aspect of modern society and has a solid iron grip on the internet -- the primary means of communication and the source of almost all information within our era. They have people monitoring it at all times in the shadows, they have the ability to target people with mindwipes through simply viewing their YouTube comments, and they have the simple and natural recourse of shadowbanning anyone who speaks the truth with their universal admin privileges. Would it work in our world where this level of absurd magic(k)al damage control doesn't exist? Certainly not. Would it work in the World of Darkness where there's simply too much at work for mere word of mouth to expose the truth? Fuck yes.

But like I said, your best recourse is to just use one of the historical settings. Or I suppose you could lower the actual population of vampires. Elders are already pretty restrictive about who gets to Embrace who: if that's not enough justification for a lower population in your eyes though then maybe just make the actual process itself harder? Like, have a random chance of the person dying in the process, with only a select few coming out of the process alive. Something along those lines. It wouldn't stop Sabbat from Mass Embracing, but for vampires on Humanity, it'd fuck them really hard.
>>
>>57961347
It just doesn't work if you disregard how canonically tight Technocracy's control over information is and how the average person has been historically conditioned to remain apathetic, uncreative and ignore that which would offend the purported definiton of what "reality" is meant to be and that is pushed by Technocracy's agenda.
>>
>>57961343
>>57961419
If you want to pretend that the world is largely rendered mentally inadequate, sure.
>>
>>57961451
Yeah, oWOD is, and even if it wasn't, Technocracy's control over information as described here >>57961402 would ensure things are contained.
>>
>>57961402
Assuming the Union has such control, then there's no reason why every other faction isn't under their sway.

I'm sorry, but it's just not realistic.
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>>57961402
>Or I suppose you could lower the actual population of vampires. Elders are already pretty restrictive about who gets to Embrace who: if that's not enough justification for a lower population in your eyes though then maybe just make the actual process itself harder? Like, have a random chance of the person dying in the process, with only a select few coming out of the process alive. Something along those lines. It wouldn't stop Sabbat from Mass Embracing, but for vampires on Humanity, it'd fuck them really hard.

This I could buy. If vampires were limited to a few at most per city, it would make the game more about influence over the kine than straight up vampires vs vampires, which could be really cool.
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>>57961516
>"then there's no reason why every other faction isn't under their sway"
>implying that the union doesn't have every other faction under their sway to some extent or another
>>
>>57961516
Why don't you read the fucking books instead of shooting down obviously abridged descriptions of single facets of the setting?
>>
>>57961638
Whenever werewolves get turned they roll their Gnosis stat at difficulty 9. If they succeed they die a quick and painless death, if they fail they suffer a long and agonizing demise, and if they botch then they successfully become an Abomination. You could probably adapt something like this over to normal mortals with a bit of tweaking and some additional rules -- say, making it easier for vamps sired by an elder of a low Generation to survive, since the blood is more potent and the curse isn't diluted enough to allow them a chance of escaping it.

I'm not sure what a mortal would roll for it though. Maybe just their Stamina? Alternatively, you could create a new stat for it like Faith or something.
>>
>>57961698
The metaplot evidently states they do not. For all their power the Union is flabbergasted by the few all-too-obvious blind spots - effective gongs on the radar.
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>>57961846
Technology is the main means Neonates use to combat their Elders and strike fear into them, the Weaver is the dominant force in the world and the potential true main antagonist of Werewolf, Wraiths have trouble piercing the Shroud to accomplish their ghostly business in the Skinlands, Changelings are dying en masse due to disbelief in their race, Demons find it more difficult to reap Faith from their Thralls in an increasingly secular age, etc.

The influence of the Technocracy is everywhere Anon. It just isn't obvious -- and that subtlety is what makes Technocrats so amazing at their job.
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>>57961936
They're apparently not as good as you seem to think. Technocrats can't do anything about vampires abusing technology. Had they - they would have been finished by now.
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>>57961978
What do you mean by abusing technology? Like I said, Neonates are taking the fight to Elders through it. It suits the Technocracy's agenda to let the younger and more human vampires take the fight to their cruel, uncaring, and generally more powerful granddaddies who'd all gladly return the world to an era of vampiric control given the chance. Why waste valuable time that could be spent fighting the Ascension War on playing clean-up more than is necessary if the vampires (Neonates against Elders, Cammies/Anarchs against Sabbat, etc.) are gradually doing that job more and more for you?
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>>57962065
That doesn't make any sense. If they really wanted to help then they would offer it upfront and end the threat then and there. Except they don't, because they can't - there's a whole Path dedicated to working technology that rivals the Union's own.
>>
>>57962065
One of the only problems is that the plight of neonates and Elders is largely a machination from Methuselah and older subtly playing the Jyhad - which no lesser vampire (Elders included) seem to be able to escape, this is further confirmed in Gehenna by how useless Elders are against Methuselah and how all other vampires (Methuselah, Elder or younger) are either useless against the Antediluvians or have always been unwitting pawns to carry their will.
>>
>>57961842
Difficulty 6, actually. Becoming an Abomination became way, way harder in Revised and onward.

Humans have no resistance to it unless they are Kin with Gnosis, though True Faith could probably prevent it at the very least.

>>57961936
They also don't really exist like that except in Mage. They aren't some miraculous omni-antagonist for every other game; they are a foil group for the Traditions. In other games, they can easily be pushed to the side, particularly on account of how in Werewolf, you can just shut down their operatives for the short window of time that you need to tear them limb from limb and brick their communications gear for good.

The recovery teams strongly believe that something terrible happened, but the car accident that happened right afterward is seriously impeding their investigation, to say nothing of how they just don't want to believe that they're vulnerable like a horror movie character in the face of Garou.
>>
>>57962123
No? Mages are one of the lowest supernaturals population wise. Granted they could send in Enlightened Citizens, but that's still a waste of resources -- their focus is on the Ascension War which, at least in their eyes, is the key to cementing their control over reality. Why would they fuck off to go group up with a bunch of random young vampires who're going to do what benefits them regardless of having help offered or not?

It seems odd that you're insistent on such a blunt and blindly blatant approach when we're talking about vampires. Isn't their natural recourse to resort to scheming and politicking to get their way as opposed to rushing in screaming like autists? Why can vamps exercise a subtle approach but not the Technocrats who are openly stated to be ruling reality from the shadows?
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>>57960095
You're more than this. You do mean something and everything you've ever done is a purposeful and intended pattern. I care about you.
>>
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>>57962222
>"They aren't some miraculous omni-antagonist for every other game"

You're right, they're a miraculous omni-protagonist for every other game. My mistake.
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>>57962222
Yeah, they don't, I'm just suggesting houserules for it to make the Kindred population lower. I remembered the way Garou react to the Embrace and figured it was relevant to the current discussion as well as a potential good place to start for any actual mechanical rules regarding the phenomenon.
>>
>>57962299
White Wolf always had a habit of making mages better than everyone else - that scenario can be safely ignored.
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>>57962442
Free free to ignore or pay heed to it as you please in your games. But within the metaplot, it remains canon nevertheless. Reality is concrete -- we have our glorious Technocratic protectors and patrons to thank for that.
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>>57962526
Metaplot never mattered much to the other lines. Vampire lost Clans, Mages had the Avatar Storm to worry about (which killed off everyone's old guard), but in Werewolf... the Stargazers moved their leadership to Tibet, and the Garou Nation started getting together more often while the Fera seemed to have recovered from the War of Rage, for some value of recovery, none of which relied on the events of Time of Thin Blood. Most Revised books didn't even let other games' events have the time of day, since the MO of the time was to keep all of the games separate.

Because they realized that the various settings don't like to play along with each other. So they stopped trying to force them together, and that was some of the best material they ended up making.

And, now that they've all grown apart, you have to realize that it's not going to be an easy thing to try and make them fit together. In fact, it's probably just not happening. Your interpretation is just one sign of this; you aren't proposing an "equal WoD", but one where Mage is true and everything else is not. If you want an "equal WoD", you'd have to take great pains to actually make everything work, which means ditching consensus reality.
>>
>>57962442
>>57962526

If you analyze the Week of Nightmares with detail it's made clear it's surprising Zapathasura managed to endure as long as he did given all the disadvantages he was made to face in that particular scenario.

In Gehenna the Antediluvians and the rest of the vampires are also affected by the God-sent Withering which greatly decreases their power level, and they still manage to end civilization.

1. Meanwhile in Ascension you have umbral spirits with weak stats killing True Magick™
2. Technocracy and the rest of the collective will of all Awakened mages being unable to deflect a meteor that erradicates life on Earth
3. Slumbering Australian aborigine spirits that just get back to activity apparently already have enough power to match or even exceed Technocracy's hundreds of years of control, preparation and grinding.
>>
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>>57962746
Most of the Ascension scenarios are dumb. But luckily they're all optional endings distinct from one another. The Week of Nightmares is definitively and likely always will be canon to the metaplot, but aliens coming down from out of nowhere to reclaim Avatars or a meteor destroying the planet? Not so much, especially when the 5th editions coming out seem to assume that the end of the world didn't actually happen.

Besides, if we treat each individual End Times scenario as canon and worth upholding, then we also have to extend to the same treatment to the gem that is pic related.
>>
>>57962692
>>57962746
>>57962871
??
>>
>>57962900
>>57962871
>>
>>57962862
If you want to treat the games as isolated then that's fine. There's nothing wrong with avoiding crossovers/crossover elements. In that case, my original points that don't concern the Technocracy still stand, where people are just too skeptical to believe in whatever trickle of evidence comes out about the existence of Kindred and the technological Thaumaturgy Paths and the Disciplines that let you charm/mindwipe targets help to repair whatever dents in the Masquerade are made.
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>>57962900
>aliens coming down from out of nowhere to reclaim Avatars

Why would the archmages allow this to happen
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>>57963102
Because they're all dead or out hiding in the mystical promised land of irrelevancy. The Avatar Storm fucked them in the ass and then the Unnamed started devouring the remaining ones en masse.
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>>57962900
>Besides, if we treat each individual End Times scenario as canon and worth upholding, then we also have to extend to the same treatment to the gem that is pic related.
That's fine, in Ascension's spin of it Technocracy erradicates most vampires after the Thin-Blooded rise and the God-sent Withering massively cripples the vampire's power; the Antediluvians decide to fall back to the shadows; the feeble Order of Hermes scavenges for scraps of Thaumaturgical knowledge, clearly recognized here as the better magic, as Tremere knowledge seem to propel the Order to new heights, flourishing as Tremere books feed the mind of new mages.

Then they're all killed by a meteor, have their magick killed by alien not-umbral spirits or Technocracy's full might is matched by australian aborigine spirits that just awakened from their slumber
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>>57963133
>And then the Unnamed started devouring the remaining ones en masse.

Does this mean that pre-ruler of the Tellurian Unnamed, which is when he goes after all the remaining archmages, is strong enough to kill all canon archmages?
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>>57963181
>Technocracy's full might is matched by australian aborigine spirits that just awakened from their slumber
wut
>>
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>>57963181
Or Voormas freezes the entire universe with his True Magick™ or the Unnamed buttfucks everyone in the ass, all other splats included and reigns supreme for eternity through the almighty power of Entropy 10 and the assistance of his dark generic infernalist masters. What? You didn't think those three Anon listed were the only End Times scenarios for Mage, did you? Yikes. Maybe you shouldn't try and play pretend at being some sort of expert if you haven't actually read the books or at least done a bit of basic fact-checking first. That is, assuming you weren't actually aware of the other scenarios and weren't just being intellectually dishonest, but intellectual dishonesty on World of Darkness General? Naaah. Never could happen.

Also, the contents of the books weren't actually important. They benefited from the knowledge because they believed the knowledge would benefit them: that's a basic cosmological principle of Mage. If the Order of Hermes genuinely and wholeheartedly believed they could attain the secrets of magick and the universe through Disneyland pamphlets then they could have just scrounged around in an amusement park for eight hours and gotten the same result. But Tremere Thaumaturgy is much more similar in nature to the Hermetic paradigm and its corresponding breed of magick than a Mickey Mouse coloring book thanks to House Tremere's magi roots, so here we are.
>>
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>>57963359
>matched or perhaps even exceeded
>>
>>57963301
His earliest appearance as a statted antagonist had him at Entropy 6, which makes him an archmage. He also had the backing of generic and vague Lovecraftian horrors, though all that being said, he still didn't kill all archmages: he just picked off the scraps in the wake of them getting fucked and fucking up each other.
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>>57955204
The typical Tzimisce NPC is a crude Eldest puppet (or Souleater, or whatever explanation you like). They lack friends because there is nothing there to "befriend." They are normal as humans, and then begin fleshcrafting humans into furniture. This is obviously not based off psychology or "peer pressure," its The Thing. PCs, as a rule, are not going to easily be made into The Thing, and Asakku is kind of a clumsy implementation.

In any case, as Tzimisce PCs are essentially Santa Claus they will make friends easily. Even a very conservative Tzimisce can make friends with people wildly different from them (furries, transgenders, etc.) by making their dreams reality.

Tzimisce's clan disciplines are actually pure garbage mechanically (zulo form does close to nothing, fleshcrafting does close to nothing, animalism is rarely relevant, etc) so they have to compensate by RP.
>>
>>57963708
>zulo form does close to nothing
What did he meant by this?
>>
I wish I had a Nosferatu waifu.
>>
>>57955771
Vampires are uncanny valley inducing robots made of mushy corpses. The blood bond, frenzy (and the emotions leading to it -- rage, fear, hunger), influence of presence, etc those ARE their legit emotions and personality. The vampire is the Beast, which has consumed its old host, body, mind, and soul, and their swiftly fading Humanity is the process of the illusion falling apart as the Beast digests them.

From the player's perspective, something like the blood bond is an annoying imposition. From the PC's perspective, it is almost certainly the only source of positive emotions in his existence (other than scarfing down blood).

The books are clear that generally vampires don't feel -- anything good, anyway. VtM and VtR are games about humans being hollowed out for use as grotesque and very faulty skin suits for voracious alien parasites. In VtR, and in 5e VtM, making someone a vampire is among the most terrible thing you can do to someone.
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>>57963708
>Tzimisce's clan disciplines are actually pure garbage mechanically (zulo form does close to nothing, fleshcrafting does close to nothing, animalism is rarely relevant, etc)
What?

Old Clan Tzimisces have Dominate at the expense of Vicissitude, Kolduns have Koldunic Sorcery

Yeah, Animalism is generally bad unless you stick to the first two powers and make yourself a bunch of fleshcrafted ghouled hounds to make it worth the experience or actively cultivate large herds of wild animals

Auspex isn't too bad, and it can be decently useful if you know how to use it

By RAW it's arguable that Vicissitude 1 can give you your Tzimisce an infinite Appearance rating

Vicissitude 2 is pretty good for close quarter combat, especially if you have Potence and get automatic successes on the Strength roll

Vicissitude 4 (zulo) is generally better than most similar war-form shapeshifting powers at the relative level, Serpentis and Protean do shit in comparison to Horrid Form that gives you three-dots to all Physical attributes.

DAV20 Vicissitude 5 renders the Tzimisice virtually unkillable, you'll only ever get truly destroyed if you allow yourself to
>>
>>57964112
>unless you stick to the first two powers
Third is not bad either.
>>
>>57964135
Yeah, that's actually a great power, you can pretty much make any mortal completely subservient for a total of your Willpower rating days a time, it's a poor's man Dominate but nonetheless works better than Dominate 1/2 when it comes to only mortals. If you bring your Animalism to 4 you can even use this while you possess a bird or something of the sort.
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>>57964060
That's both retarded and noncanon.
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>>57964060
>The books are clear that generally vampires don't feel -- anything good, anyway.
Sex is great for vampires (although still doesn't replace feeding) yet according to you "they don't feel anything good"?
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>>57955924
Werewolf-vampire alliances probably happen more than you'd think, due to similar enemies (the Camarilla has infiltrated the government, but the Sabbat has infiltrated Pentex) and due to the fact that the strongest kinds of vampires (clans with Presence or ones who obtain it otherwise) make everyone who sees them love and admire them. Likewise, most vampires wind up with free appearance 5 sooner or later (in the Sabbat, free fleshcrafting is a given, and a Camarilla can just force a Sabbat into doing so).

A werewolf may vaguely think "wait, I thought vampires were bad? wasn't I angry about... something?" but her heart still goes aflutter and she is likely to find herself unable to do anything to displease her handsome Prince.
>>
>>57960996
>>57961402
>>57961419
It doesn't make sense for the technocracy to have that much control.


If the technocracy can permanently delete something from online, and remove the memory of it from 10000+ people who saw it, then how is the setting not over.
Why hasn't all the other stuff been eliminated?

How the fuck does the world not conform perfectly to their vision. This stuff does not make sense.
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>>57964387
>>57964387
It doesn't make sense for Baba Yaga to have that much control.


If Baga Yaga can put the entirety of Russia into spiritual lockdown, and enslave the minds of 10000+ people a week after awakening from slumber, then how is the setting not over. Why hasn't all the other stuff been eliminated?

How the fuck does the world not conform perfectly to the Methuselahs' vision. This stuff does not make sense.
>>
>>57964387
Yeah, it really does seem like Magefags have upped Technocracy's potential for control but only relatively, a good example is how they had canonically to deal with the aftermath of the Week of Nightmares:

So yeah, they shown demonstrable potential to cover up incidents as big as the Week of Nightmares albeit at considerable difficulty and taking the full span of a month of dedicated resources, but nonetheless having to rely on aspects such as "Bangladesh had poor record-keeping and communications"

Though how much of that remains true in 2018 is hard to say, the culture of using cellphones, cameras and internet certainly wasn't nearly as widespread as it was in 1999 - date the Week of Nightmares went down.
>>
Hello my fellow vampfags, i have a question for all of you. The onix path has in Main make other Books of Vampire the Masquerade V20 and Vampire Dark Ages V20 or that was the last before the new company take world of darkness licence
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>>57964926
Forgot to upload this
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>>57961451
>If you want to pretend that the world is largely rendered mentally inadequate, sure.

In the world of darkness, the role of "humans" is taken up by a submoronic viscous sac of walking paradox called a "sleeper." Sleepers aren't human. They aren't even sentient beings. Canonically, as of Hunter the Reckoning and Mummy the Resurrection (late revised), sleepers flat out cannot remember hostile supernatural phenomena -- of any kind.

It says that if a human sees a vampire feeding on someone and it bares its fangs with blood dripping, etc., the sleeper, or even a hunter without Second Sight, freaks out and flees. This isn't a power on the vampire's part. A zombie, etc.

The classic world of darkness is an MMO server with automated NPCs, not "our world with monsters." Reality is democratically determined and the world used to be flat.
>>
>>57961402
>The Technocracy controls every aspect of modern society and has a solid iron grip on the internet -- the primary means of communication and the source of almost all information within our era. They have people monitoring it at all times in the shadows, they have the ability to target people with mindwipes through simply viewing their YouTube comments, and they have the simple and natural recourse of shadowbanning anyone who speaks the truth with their universal admin privileges. Would it work in our world where this level of absurd magic(k)al damage control doesn't exist? Certainly not. Would it work in the World of Darkness where there's simply too much at work for mere word of mouth to expose the truth? Fuck yes.

That doesn't make sense.

In real life, the NSA deparment of the gov of the USA was spying on massive amounts of internet traffic.
They have all of it stored. The thing is they were not able to effectively use it to get info, because of how much there was. They simply had too much data to analyze it all.

First off the internet is massive. You have many different video sites, and videos are constantly being uploaded.

How much resources do they have available to allocate to this?


If they can target people based on their internet comments so easily, then it doesn't make sense that stuff they don't approve of is still around. Any sort of religion, supernatural belief, or whatever would have to be nonexistant in every one who has ever used the internet.

People still believe in all kinds of bullshit, this is simply not possible if the technocrats have the kind of control you say they do.
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How would a single Solar Exalted work out in CWoD
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>>57962222
>They aren't some miraculous omni-antagonist for every other game

The Technocracy obliterates most vampires without an effort and forces BOTH SIDES of the werewolf vs wyrm equation to keep their pathetic Apocalypse confined to the Umbra.
>>
>>57963378
>But Tremere Thaumaturgy is much more similar in nature to the Hermetic paradigm and its corresponding breed of magick than a Mickey Mouse coloring book thanks to House Tremere's magi roots, so here we are.
Are you sure about that?
>>
>>57962442
Nobody can accuse WW/OP of favoring mages except mechanically (and then they lose most crossover mechanics, despite that almost any mage can rip apart a vampire with his bare fucking hands because Prime is required to do ANYTHING and Prime gives both agg damage and agg soak).

The Tremere at their weakest beat the Hermetics at their strongest, archmagi included.

The Technocracy, without their archmages, bitchslapped ALL VAMPIRE FACTIONS.
>>
>>57963897
>I wish I had a Nosferatu waifu.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


I WISH THE TECHNOCRACY WOULD MINDWIPE ME


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>
>>57964990
>The Technocracy obliterates most vampires without an effort and forces BOTH SIDES of the werewolf vs wyrm equation to keep their pathetic Apocalypse confined to the Umbra.

Then in given scenarios weak umbral spirits with low stats kill magick without them being able to do anything; they cannot bring themselves to deflect a meteor; australian aborigines that have only waken up already match (and might even exceed) Technocracy's full might
>>
There are a lot of very bitter Vampire players lurking tonight

I think I'll come back later
>>
>tfw you realize the writers were partisan hacks and free yourself of trying to believe the oWoD was a coherent setting.
>>
Another thing about the internet and vampires:

In the v20 storyteller companion, it mentions that the internet is one of the biggest threats to the masquerade.

It also may have said that it's only a matter of time before it falls, but i'm not sure about that.
>>
>>57965072
>There are a lot of very bitter Vampire players lurking tonight
> I think I'll come back later

You think THIS is figthing??
you should have seen last thread.
>>
>>57963819
All vampires can spend blood to boost their stats to 10. 10 is the stated limit for vampire stats. 3 rounds after you STOP boosting your stats, your stats start returning to gen cap+1 (so usually 6).

Zulo form is in no way implied to be an exception to this.
You pay a lot of XP in exchange for a tiny vitae discount and to become a hideous masquerade breach.
>>
>>57964974
>How would a single Solar Exalted work out in CWoD
Which edition?
What essence level do they start at?
What do they specialize in? (if anything).
>>
>>57964112
Note that I said Tzimisce, I don't get the point of bringing in oldclan.

>Kolduns have Koldunic Sorcery

If you're using nu-Koldunic Sorcery rules (if not, I don't wanna hear A N Y T H I N G about 20th edition Koldun powers) nobody gets KS as a clan discipline.

>Auspex isn't too bad, and it can be decently useful if you know how to use it

Yeah, but none of their native disciplines let Tzimisce arbitrarily muscle through everything like Presence, Dominate, Thaumaturgy, etc.
>>
>>57964359
Vampires don't, and can't, have sex, other than being used as a cold, bloody orifice. Period.
>>
>>57964387
>then how is the setting not over.

It is.

>How the fuck does the world not conform perfectly to their vision.

It does. They changed the dimensions and size of the fucking planet. The computer you are using is a form of witchcraft.

>Why hasn't all the other stuff been eliminated?

The NWO has no beef with supernaturals if they keep to the shadows. Largely, they do. If they bust the Masquerade (etc) the Union shits fury on them until they die.
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>>57965037
>and then they lose most crossover mechanics, despite that almost any mage can rip apart a vampire with his bare fucking hands because Prime is required to do ANYTHING and Prime gives both agg damage and agg soak
Yeah, because every mage has Prime 3 to enchant their patterns to soak and deal aggravated; and soaking aggravated damage from attacks that deal aggravated (like if you're are swallowed by a conflagration but still keep going) when you normally couldn't won't be paradoxical.

>The Technocracy, without their archmages, bitchslapped ALL VAMPIRE FACTIONS.
Who wouldn't, after God already did most of the heavy work by bringing the Withering?
>>
>>57965208
>im going to contradict the citation someone else made, without any proof.
>>
>>57965037
>Nobody can accuse WW/OP of favoring mages except mechanically

In OPP they definitely can. It's practically by intent. The amount of soreness pertaining to Withstand ratings, Unmaking, Exceptional Successes, etc etc etc, is absolutely mind boggling to be certain.

WW had a habit of giving vampires a good chance with contesting mechanics, despite not accounting for mages blowing right through it with entirely foreign abilities.
>>
>>57965208
You are wrong and V20 refutes your houserule, as shown in the image.
>>
Unfun Fact: There's an Archmage with Time 10 in Ascension and ISN'T a vegetable. Joke ruined.
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>>57965051
That's because the Ziggs are targeting all reality with an effect that is not an effect.

>meteor

I dunno, maybe the fact that sleepers see it keeps them from doing anything...?

>australian aborigines that have only waken up already match (and might even exceed) Technocracy's full might

I don't get it.
>>
>>57965300
>Unfun Fact: There's an Archmage with Time 10 in Ascension and ISN'T a vegetable. Joke ruined.
Well, they obviously didn't use the time 9 power.
>>
>>57965246
>>How the fuck does the world not conform perfectly to their vision.
>It does. They changed the dimensions and size of the fucking planet. The computer you are using is a form of witchcraft.

It doesn't. People like flat earther's still exist. People who believe in superstion still exist. People with beliefs contrary to the technorcacy still exist.
All of these people are unawakened sleepers.
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>>57965257
>Yeah, because every mage has Prime 3 to enchant their patterns to soak and deal aggravated

I get that you are saying a sentence in the format of sarcasm but mages can't do anything without Prime. Generally they can't even refill Quintessence without Prime, I don't think.

Imagine if vampires could not so much as feed without Thaumaturgy 3.

I will gladly admit a vampire can curb stomp a Primeless mage, since they cannot... do things. Of course, a sleeper could simply run them over with a car.
>>
>>57957502
I'm fucking dying. Holy shit.

>>57964972
The NSA doesn't have the ability to warp reality, probability, and possibility to their whims. And the Technocracy has better things to do and bigger problems to deal with than a couple of Sleepers who believe in Big Foot: the Consensus is determined by the majority, not a vocal minority.

>>57965017
Yes. Mickey is either a Ratkin or a Pooka and either way would probably get along better with Verbena.
>>
>>57965208
>Vampires are beings defined as creatures of sex and violence
>Actually thinking they can't fug
>>
>>57965257
End Times scenarios are all standalone. I don't see a mention of the Withering taking effect anywhere pertaining to Mage.
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>>57965337
Time 9 reads as an innate ability. Similar to Life 9. Tricky.
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>>57965372

>All of these people are unawakened sleepers.

And? Ridiculous buffoons are there to simply remind people how horrifyingly retarded the world without the Technocrats would be.

The Traditions fight the Technocrats in self defense, but few among the Traditions want to repeal more than 1% of the Technocracy's changes, usually the most destructive and arbitrary (ie. make cocaine good for you again).
>>
>>57965270
talking owod.

Nwod is wildly different in many ways, including power levels being what they are on the basis of intent.

Few can survive nmages targeting them. Nmages also cannot survive any better and unlike owod, splats rarely have beef with each other. Instead, nmages are beset by hordes of other mages.
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>>57965300
Only in the sense that everything about archmages is an optional rule.

>Joke ruined

It is not a joke, its literally how Time 9+ works.
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>>57965404
The header states that Ascension assumes that
Gehenna (and the Apocalypse) are background events. If Gehenna is assumed, then it brings the Withering, since they're one and the same.
>>
>>57957502
Works good.
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>>57965481
So I guess we can assume that literally every other plot point in every End Times book are in effect? That's... Not going to work very well with, well, anything.
>>
>>57965392
Vampires are creatures of making people awkward and sexually uncomfortable as the feed as the victim desperately hopes the horrible thing sucking on it will leave soon and of weakly slapping and scratching people because they're having a temper tantrum.
>>
>>57965501
Mage brings over Gehenna, two core themes are innate to Gehenna: the rise of the Antediluvians and the weaking of Caine's Curse
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>>57965377
Going by FbDF Prime:2/3 via Charms and other Wonders has the obscene benefit of turning willworkers into D&D wizards. Prime being mandatory is an understatement.
>>
So, how 'bout them wacky Obrimos?
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>>57965455
>Nmages also cannot survive any better

I can only read Mage Armor and laugh
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>>57965567
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>>57965547
Plenty of core themes were left out in Gehenna, anon. Like the Union running the planet.
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>>57965474
I wonder why the writers hand waved it then.
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>>57965565
Very nice. Are you the guy who does the wonderposting? I would know nothing about that element of the game without you.
>>
>>57965586
>have mage armor
>banisher sees a warding spell I cast on my sanctum while I'm out
>Space attainment + Forces 5 unmaking
>I implode

AT LEAST I HAVE MAGE ARMOR LOL
>>
>>57965634
Bluecho? Sadly no.
>>
>>57965377
>I get that you are saying a sentence in the format of sarcasm but mages can't do anything without Prime. Generally they can't even refill Quintessence without Prime, I don't think.
Your feelings over Prime (and how it's great and every PC should have it at least rating of 3) won't change the fact it doesn't seem like Prime is more favored than any other Spheres canonically

Going through statted characters in the Order of Hermes Revised it would seem it's even the opposite, Prime isn't paid much attention for,

Of all mages statted in that book only one of them - an archmage with Arete 7 has Prime at sufficient level (Prime 3) to enchant his patterns

Primus Ishaq Ibn-Thoth (Arete 7) has Prime 3,
Kallisti of House Xaos (Arete 4) has Prime 2
Mark Hallward Gillan (Arete 5) has Prime 1
Hatshepsut Tabitha Kashaf (Arete 4) doesn't has Prime, Victor Narravo (Arete 3) doesn't have Prime
Livia Basqualle (Arete 2) has Prime 2
Nicholas Avery (Arete 2) doesn't have Prime
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>>57965794
Ok, do you have the stat sheets for the other 1,794 members?
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>>57965794

>PC build
>build

Its not a "build." its called if you don't have Prime, you can't do the most basic mage tasks like regain quintessence or cast nearly any spell whatsoever.

It'd be like saying the "psychic paradigm" that requires Mind 2 (to do... anything whatsoever) or the "spirit paradigm" that requires Spirit 2 (to do.... anything whatsoever) is a build.

After you get Prime 3, you can go back to your regularly scheduled spellcasting.

>Order of Hermes

Now you are understanding how the Tremere BTFO them, right?

>guys, vampires!
"Hmm, I guess I'll... not be able to cast any printed Order of Hermes rotes, period."
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>>57965976
Damn those pesky technocrats
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Also related to the internet in VTM. 20th
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>>57957502
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>>57964060

I wasn't asking about your own headcanon.
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>>57966003
>>57965976
>>57964972
>>57964387

It's okay guys, Thaumaturgy has a solution for this; how long (if it doesn't already exist) for them to come up with a power that transmits Dominate 3's Forgetful Mind instead of Presence 5's Summon as demonstrated in the image, so they can easily erase the memories of anyone who has ever visited a particular news websites etc?
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Is changeling the most interesting CofD splat so far? My only real complaint so far is there's currently an annoying amount of thematic/mechanical overlap where two kiths are nearly identical; fireheart/levinquick, coldscale/metalfish, riddleseeker/slewfoot. Aside from that contracts could be more useful but the changes they made to what a seeming is and the implications of what True Fae are has added a lot in my eyes.
>>
>>57966143
Or even better! A combo with Path of Thaumaturgy, Path of Corruption's Addiction and Dominate's Conditioning, so you can simultaneously addict and condition large masses of people visiting your website, to return again and again until they're left brainwashed and enslaved...
>>
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>>57963022
There is no evidence. It's a bunch of modular, if intangible, pieces to a game. A lot of the pieces, though intangible, do not fit together, even though Mage likes to pretend that they do.

>>57964385
>Sabbat infiltrated Pentex

Pentex is like a roach motel. Also, the Cam is in bed with it, so no go there.

>>57964944
Damn, even Red Talons don't hate humans this much.

>>57964974
"It would be very painful."
"You're a pretty big guy, you kn-"
"For you."

>>57964990
Looks like someone's locked in a Paradox Realm there. Best to just keep that door closed until they cool off... whenever that is.
>>
>>57966206
I can't help but think they are a bit one note about being victims.
>>
>>57963708
Blood form is pretty handy at least. Not really 5 dot handy, but handy.
>>
>>57954913
>Where did Technocracy come from?

The Order of Reason were reformed into the modern Technocracy during the reign of Queen Victoria. How much influence she had on this is debatable, but nailing down anything more coherent than that is difficult due to the number of times the Technocracy have purged their own records.

It is possible that the Traditions shaped the Technocracy into what is by *needing* a force to blame for Paradox and the Consensus shifting. Desire shapes reality, especially in the World of Darkness...
>>
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It's telling that in both Ascension and Awakening the "evil" mages are the de-facto rulers of the world. They've won for the most part and they know it. At least in Ascension there's hope of toppling them. Awakening not so much.
>>
>>57966281
Admittedly, the power to simply say "Nah." to combat is fairly nice.
>>
>>57956124
You are talking out of your arsehole. Quite a talent. Go watch Hannity some more.
>>57956193
>implying we shouldn't be concerned about genocide for fear of "offending" someone
Now who's the snowflake, bitch?
>>57956518
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". When the Garou Nation starts running out of warriors, the more... politically expedient Shadow Lords often recommend thinking outside the box.
>>57956862
"deus sanguine vult", I guess.
>>
>>57960095
How adolescent.
>>
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>>57966281
>>57966384
The DAV20 version is significantly better though, effective immortality at 5-rating power? I'll take it
>>
>>57964385
>>57966216
The highest placed vampire within Pentex is Zettler. It's more that infernalists infiltrated the Sabbat and Pentex partnered with those.
>>
>>57957502
okay, very similar to an awakened NPC I made in a game I'm running, shadow name 'Funhouse'.
>>
>>57960621
A third of America thinks Trump is doing a good job. So much of humanity is obsessed with seeking out something to prop up their confirmation bias, and you think they'd be willing to abandon their safety and sanity to accept that there are real, actual monsters in the world? That their guns, their laws and their beliefs are effectively useless in the face of that?
>>
>>57960656
Yeah, they are, but I think she wanted something more in depth, in the style of Clanbook Baali.
>>
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>>57966216
>There is no evidence. It's a bunch of modular, if intangible, pieces to a game. A lot of the pieces, though intangible, do not fit together, even though Mage likes to pretend that they do.

I... don't know what you mean by that nor what you're trying to say in general. The guy who asked the initial question believed that, in the information era, vampires would inevitably have been spotted and exposed already due to their relatively high population and the ability of hunters to share whatever proof you dig up with the world. My argument is in response to that -- the argument being that vampires have enough tools and powers at their disposal to keep the Masquerade intact with some luck, strategy, and/or solid oversight. So even in a world without the Technocracy silently aiding in keeping the Curse of Caine a secret, I don't believe it's too unrealistic for Kindred and their society to exist as it does.

Then again, I don't even think that's what's being argued over anymore, is it? It seems like the discussion just turned into people getting buttblasted because "M-MAGES CAN DO A THING??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! HOW IS SETTING NOT KILLL?!!?!?!?!?!??!?1111!!/" even though numerous other powerful and influential factions manage to suppress the flow of information without having the literal keys to reality that the Technocrats have.
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>>57961272
Don't underestimate the complacency of humanity.
>>
>>57966469
OH SHIT
WHY DIDNT I KNOW ABOUT THIS

This is awesome.
>>
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>>57966364
>Technocracy
>evil
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>>57960621
you kind of have to assume that vamps or interested groups have a lockdown on mass media tighter than a crabs butthole. The crack in that hole is the internet and there's a hunter group and crude real world analogues for that.
>>
>>57966502
Butthurt bernout detected.
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>>57965149
All vampires can spend blood to boost their stats to 10. 10 is the stated limit for vampire stats.
You're wrong here buddy, 10 is the stated hard limit for vampire stats increased through blood boosting, a vampire's PERMANENT rating for attribute is capped by their generational limit + 1, this however doesn't mean that Horrid Form wouldn't add +3 to all your physical attributes even if they were already boosted to 6 because they are not --permanent--. Horrid Form is really strong. Boost your shit to 6, then get +3 all around and you're a hulking mass of 9 Strength, 9 Stamina, 9 Dexterity.
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>>57964936
That's all she wrote, sweetheart.
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>>57965208
Sure they can. They just use blood as both lubricant and cum. Giovanni Clanbook explicitly describes Elders making Ghouls and Blood Bonds by forcing others to fellate them.
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Is this Mage the Ascension?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLufcndoXqk
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>>57966533
It's not a hard thing to grasp, anon. The games weren't written with each other in mind. The similarities are there to maybe build some bridges if you want to do the work, but the settings don't rely on each other.

Also, the Technocracy only likes to think that it has the keys to reality. Reality disagrees sufficiently often to frustrate the ones who are still made out of meat into multiple ulcers.
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>>57966533
Have these threads always had a strong distaste for Mage and its associated power schemes?
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>>57965976
Is that the V20 Companion?
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>>57966750
BOLD ARTISTIC VISION!
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>>57966588
I think they meant "The Nephandi" - M20 states they infiltrated every major player on both sides of the Ascension War. It's why the Crafts and Disparates are now the default "good guys".

>>57966676
I'm not even American, but thank you for illustrating my point about confirmation bias so flawlessly, you stupid axe wound.
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>>57966796
Only when it's asserted by absolute retards, pic related by marriage and blood.
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>>57966776
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING THOUGH REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>57966796
Not really. It was actually the reverse not too long ago: magefags were the instigators and the oppressors, but it seems like the supremacists have begun to die from masturbation-induced exhaustion after a long and hard era, so in the interest of maintaining the cosmic balance of cancer the vampfags took their place and now screech autistically at anything MtA related. We exist within an eternal agonizing struggle where all discussions must die in order to pave the way for one persistent meaningless question: "In a fight between Caine and an archmage, who would win?"
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>>57966272
See this is what bugs me, changelings are no more victims than any other supernatural. People run away from home all the time, and changelings are coerced to come to arcadia, they're not fucking dragged from their home kicking and screaming. On top of that changelings weren't just torture victims in arcadia, they had roles the same as anyone does in any society. A lot of changelings were just entertainers, foremen or other forms of completely normal human workers. Arcadia is completely constructed from human ideas, the issue is just that fantasies leak into it and complicate things. The ones who run away are usually just the ones who miss home, can't adapt, or because of how darklings are created have some business to attend to. But the fact is plenty never leave.

It's exactly the same as someone making a suave and dishonest vampire, a tough and uncivilized werewolf, or a reclusive and condescending mage. They're stereotypes, you're not supposed to play into them, but when people are unfamiliar with a splat they always fucking do.
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>>57966880
Yeah I don't deny Mages take golden dumps on pretty much everyone and that retarded players cement this en masse. I'm just amazed that both sides can adhere to such lengthy masturbatory rage fests going on for weeks. Not even on the forums is it this bad. I've only seen similar cases with 40k fans.
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>>57966932
>>>/pol/

We have enough autism in this thread already. Please go.
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>>57966364
I seriously don't know what to think about the Seers. They are seriously weird. They seem to be more or less like God Machine cultists, or possibly are, complete with a mix of "maintain the status quo" and "God speaks through your neighbor's dog to murder the mailman," and generally seem to be intended to embody all paranoid conspiracy theorist's nightmares times a thousand.

I am inclined, as an ST, to think of using them less as "here are antagonists to combat the PCs" and more as (also like GM cultists) elemental forces of personified schizophrenia. They make people on the television whisper conspirationally about you. They convince people outer space doesn't exist. They have musicians cover one eye during performances. They send hobos to rifle through your garbage. They canceled your favorite television shows.

Not only is it largely impossible to win against the Exarchs, but aside from keeping sleepers asleep and making the world a worse place, the Seers seem to be to mages what mages are to sleepers; unknown unknowns.
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>>57966796
No.

When IM was released, there was a brief use of Entities as if it was Forces 9 but it was an occasional wank only, like with true fae.
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>>57966960
>they're not fucking dragged from their home kicking and screaming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4068643225&feature=iv&src_vid=oHC1230OpOg&v=BLikP6BDH5w
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>>57966960
True, but the last comment on Changeling 2e I saw in these threads was complaining that the new stuff about courts detracts from how the cowering, traumatized abuse victim motif. I have no idea what a Changeling chronicle is supposed to be like other than the fetch resentment angle.
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>>57966619
Here to deliver a daily dose of Tremere badassery

>they were wrong
>--at least one-- mage fell for every vampire killed
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>>57967100
I already thought Tremere were cool and wanted to run a prequel Tremere chronicle sometime but these threads have definitely increased that desire.
>>
Anyone have that PDF with Legacies converted over to MtAw 2e?
>>
>>57966959
Could it be due to a lack of self esteem among the Masquerade player base?
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>>57967189
Probably.
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>>57966364
Seers aren't rulers of the world, they are big wannabes who hold out against Pentacle only because of latter's unablity to hold shit together.
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>>57966208
>addict and condition large masses of people visiting your website, to return again and again until they're left brainwashed and enslaved...
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>>57962862
>Metaplot never mattered much to the other lines
changeling got fucked up by new stuff coming out of previously inaccessible trods, and wraith stopped existing entirely you massive ponce
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>>57967374
in the latest W20 werewolves are also now affected by the avatar storm but in a different way
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>>57967281
Of course they are.

>hold out

There is nothing the Pentacle can do against them. All the Pentacle can do is barely cling to survival, meekly cringing when Seers get near and hope that they won't notice and kill them.

They have all the advantages the Pentacle does plus temporal wealth, power, their sanctums are guarded by armies of supernal beings (which are mages+), their archmages help them while Pentacle archmages are kicked out, the Exarchs send even MORE ephemeral-rules archmages to help out, and the Exarchs have also enslaved thousands of Supernal Gods who are themselves more powerful than archmages (simply archmages with ephemera stats + the ability to use honest to God Imperial magic but faster and without arcane xp/quint).

Oh and they have attainments that ensure they are themselves flat out superior to Pentacle mages.
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>>57967394
Source? I'm in a W20 game currently that's following the metaplot from beginning to end, so this might be relevant to my group.
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>>57967374
Wraith didn't stop existing. Hunter: Walking Dead explains many wraiths were blown into what is essentially an owod version of Twilight or into corpses and living people.

It nonetheless makes clear that actual Wraiths still work as normal and that they are only visible to hunters using Second Sight for a single round when they reach across the shroud. They also have to deal with a Maelstrom outside of haunts, of course, which is hardly going to stop a PC.
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>>57967085
The characters fetch isn't actually always important, especially since one of most fun you can have with a changeling is make them from a completely different time period, so their family and fetch are long dead. Mostly a changeling chronicle is more about hunstmen making changelings turn on each other, the lack of trust between changelings because of that, there's the gentry that have been banished to the mortal realm (some know what they are, some dont). You can also make the players decide if they want to uproot themselves to keep safe, or go for a fight that is really not in their favour. Then you have the stuff you can do in the hedge, like searching for goblin fruits, hob markets, true fae sometimes frequent markets and make for great encounters because they may or may not care about someone elses escaped changelings.
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>>57967499
It's somewhere on W20 Changing Ways, I don't have the pdf with me so I cannot say for certain at which page
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>>57967281
>Seers aren't rulers of the world

Well, not them, but the big cheeses they work for. The living concepts of tyranny and oppression.
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>>57967534
Found it. Thanks. I'll be sure to bring this up with them.
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Ever wonder what the Exarchs looked like during their time as wizard kings of Atlantis? The only one with a confirmed gender (besides their Ochemata) is the Father.
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>>57967594
Who wins, Exarchs or oWOD archmages with Spheres at 9?
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>>57967609
A slightly disobedient rooster would win against an archmage with all spheres at 9.
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>>57967609
Force of Aquaman Denial.
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>>57967609
That's a bit silly. While harder to pull off (muh quintessence) Imperial Magic is magnormously more powerful than anything showcased in oWoD. At least in potential.
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>>57967631
I wonder what the closest to a servant would be in owod and nwod.
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>>57967657
Goetia

You could probably find Saber floating around in our mass subconscious
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>>57967487
You seem to drink too much of a Exarch propaganda juice.

>their sanctums are guarded by armies of supernal beings
You are thinking of Tyrannates, and only Ministers of Archigenitors enjoy those (so only 4 Ministers out of 10). Note that those Ministers are archmages, and any archmage can fill his soul-realm with those without problems.

>their archmages help them while Pentacle archmages are kicked out
Don't know where you found "kicked out" part, but Exemplars and Ascended do watch over "their" orders. Silver Ladder archs help out their order especially to combat Tetrarchs.

>the Exarchs send even MORE ephemeral-rules archmages to help out
They don't send them to help out, they send to take care of tasks they don't trust Seers with. Big difference.

>the Exarchs have also enslaved thousands of Supernal Gods who are themselves more powerful than archmages
First, this doesn't mean shit to Seers - Exarchs don't send said gods to help them out. Second, there is no exact number on enslaved gods. Third, there is even more Supernal Gods who aren't enslaved, and it is directly stated if they challenged Exarchs once more, the result is unclear.

>they have attainments that ensure they are themselves flat out superior to Pentacle mages
Prelacy isn't for everyone. Even Seers fear Seers even Prelacy and distrust them.

All those "advantages" (most of which are meaningless for average Seer) countered by Pentacle outnumbering Seers at least two-to-one and constant civil war inside Seers (Pentacle mages do have their disagreements but manage to stay civil; in Seers constant backstabbing is a norm).

All those "advan
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>>57967686
>Second, there is no exact number on enslaved gods.

>"Below the Archigenitors and the Iron Seals that represent the Arcana, the Seers of the Throne populate choruses and legions of lesser Exarchs. They speak of 8 million recorded gods, seven legions of Arch-Ascended under every Seal, ruling 77 ochemata and 777 secret masters of the world, and even universes within each Exarch’s soul, huge enough to spawn infinite avatars"
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>>57967729
>actually believing that trite
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>>57967729
What kind of shitty game is this? High-fantasy D&D on steroids?
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>>57967594
Whatever Atlantis was, was destroyed the moment they stormed the supernal.

Also concepts like sex, gender, race, etc. Stop being meaningful descriptors for Mages of that level of power.
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>>57967686
Imperial Mysteries posits that the Supernal is largely dominated by the Exarchs. The natives that survived the Celestial Ladder are either among the fringes or within their own Dhatu realms.
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>>57967487
Pentacle Archmages aren't allowed to hold positions of authority inside the organization. That doesn't mean the Pentacle doesn't have Archmages in their corner, or even Ascended Archmages (cough Corpus Author cough). ALL Archmages have to abide by the rule of the Pax that dictates that they can't directly lord over lesser Mages, including Tetrarchs, who routinely bend this rule into a pretzel just by existing and can get fucked if they go too far with it. Seers are also incredibly hindered by infighting and betrayal, where the Pentacle is LITERALLY founded on a system of mutual assistance and protection. The Seers are LITERALLY founded on a system of never, ever being able to trust each other, called the Iron Pyramid. Want that promotion? Kill your boss. Like your job? Kill your subordinate who has been giving you funny looks lately. Seers also don't become hot shit until they get higher up in said Pyramid, at which point they will have just as many enemies within their own organization as they do without, if not more. Not every little mook who was just strongarmed into joining has an Ochema guarding his house and has the Eye's blessing, granting him Panopticon's Attainments so he can spy on the Hierarch eating his lunch.

Awakening isn't like Ascension. Seers don't hunt down and exterminate Pentacle Mages as part of their daily routine. Pentacle Mages aren't on the run. They're in a Cold War because they're both incredibly dangerous to each other, and who's running things depends on what city you're in. Seers might have money and political power, but so does the Pentacle. That shit isn't exactly hard to get. In fact, the ONLY city in canon material that is notably Seer-run is Manhattan, and that's because the Pentacle fucked up somehow, not because the Seers bullied them out with help from gods and money and special Attainments. Every other city detailed, if not outright Pentacle dominated, shows Seers to be on an equal level with the Pentacle at most.
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>>57967729
Yep, you are quoting Seer propaganda. It is written just below:
>The Seers are generous in naming Exarchs, because to do otherwise would suggest that the path to Ascension isn’t attainable.

The Seers want to believe that anyone can become the Exarch, of course they will fill the heavens with them. Otherwise, there does all the loyal ones go?
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>>57967782
So what you're saying is that the Seers = Sith and the Pentacle = Jedi ?
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>>57967753
He's literally posting in-universe Seer propaganda.
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>>57967793
Literally nothing I quoted contests anything out of Imperial Mysteries and previous supplements.

If you want to label it propaganda, go ahead.
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>>57967686
Ordinary Prelates have their home bases protected by supernals.

A suitable task for an ochemata is still to rape the local Pentacle mages to death however you slice it.

It explains most supernal gods are enslaved by the seers. If ever the Seers failed, the Pentacle would still have to get through a vast army of archmage ochema and supernal gods.

>Pentacle outnumbering Seers at least two to one

Oh boy, that just means the Panopticon needs to thin their population periodically with some blind sympathetic nuking. The Pentacle still meekly accepts whatever the Seers do and scurry to get out of their way. If a Pentacle idiot stands in their way, either the Panopticon obliterates them effortlessly through a blind sympathetic casting ("target: 'that pentacle mage that keeps fucking with my plans'") or one day, what was a sleeper a split second ago Unmakes them outright. There is no such thing as a defense against magic under any circumstances and the guys who can do blind sympathetic casting, or hijack sleepers for suicide missions, make it totally one sided.

>manage to stay civil

Guardians backstab Pentacle mages enough to make up for it. One important task of the Guardians is undermining the Pentacle to ensure they can never create their own nation, as well as doing other Seer stuff like stopping awakenings.
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>>57967782
>Jeez, who even would want to become one of these things, it sounds like they all lead very sorry lives; living a normal mortal life and naturally dying seems like a blessing in comparison.
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>>57967394
And that does nothing to eliminate the last 20 or so years in which it didn't. It just serves to underscore how the pretender WW doesn't know what it's doing. As shown by how they can't get a core book of their new flagship game to anywhere near vaguely complete in 2 years and change.
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>>57967798
In a broad sense, yes. Seers dick each other over for power and the Pentacle espouses the virtue of Wisdom, aka being in control of yourself.
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>>57967825
>And that does nothing to eliminate the last 20 or so years in which it didn't.
Well, retcons are a thing, and they own the intellectual property of the games
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>>57967747
>>57967793
>>57967804

To be fair, much of that isn't actually far fetched going by IM, Seer hierarchies and how Supernal beings are overall structured. And yes, you CAN unite with Supernal beings, Exarchs included, as a path to Ascension.
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>>57967843
It's not far-fetched but it also isn't confirmed or ever presented as anything other than SSS, Shit Seers Say.
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>>57967858

There's more to support it than not. All I'm sayin'
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>>57967782
>Seers don't hunt down and exterminate Pentacle Mages as part of their daily routine.

Most mages, ironically, are not warriors, but it notes that killing Pentacle mages brings great respect and admiration. Its not a Cold War, the Seers are America and the Pentacle are Pakistan. Occasionally, they just slaughter a bunch of Pentacle idiots, get extreme respect for it and -maybe- the Pentacle futiley retaliates by killing the sleeper the Seers momentarily hijacked.

>Pentacle Mages aren't on the run.

Only because running is useless against the Panopticon and there is no defense or retaliation possible against them. They simply kill Pentacle mages when they please, and the Pentacle mages wonder what they did to displease their overlords.
>>
Mage lore literally pisses off non-Magefags to no foreseeable end like holy fucking shit.

Just remember that it's all pretend. You're not actually getting whooped by actual wizards. Deep breaths.
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>>57967818
>Ordinary Prelates have their home bases protected by supernals.
Every ordinary mage can have their Sanctum protected by supernals. Demesnes aren't that hard to create.

>A suitable task for an ochemata is still to rape the local Pentacle mages to death however you slice it.
Um... no, there is a Pax Arcanum for that.
>The Exarchs are apparently permitted to blatantly oppose powerful beings, but can’t directly influence the material plane except to oppose rivals who break the pact.

>It explains most supernal gods are enslaved by the seers.
It doesn't say that anywhere.

>Oh boy, that just means the Panopticon needs to thin their population periodically with some blind sympathetic nuking.
Pentacle mage can do the same to Seers with no problem, they have Guardians for that.

>Guardians backstab Pentacle mages enough to make up for it.
Not nearly enough. Guardians backstab Pentacle whenever Pentacle start to do really stupid and hubristic shit. Seers backstab each other prematurely, before other Seer backstabs them.
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Seers, Pentacle.

You're both insects crawling over a carcass.

You should pay us a visit. We got cookies.
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>>57967843
Sure you can, but that doesn't spawn a new Ascended being. Exarchs are definitely most powerful Ascended being as of now (except perhaps Oracles, if they exist), but nothing implies they have numbers superiority. In fact, it is stated that Ascension War going hot would demolish the world as it is - not end definitely in Exarch's favor.
>>
Imperial Mysteries literally says that the Exarchs "tamed" and made the Supernal "humanocentric". If you want to pretend that this doesn't mean the Exarchs dominate over the Supernal gods, then go ahead. But it's evidently not true. It's practically the point of the plot. It's akin to the Olympians overthrowing the Titans.

There's literally a mechanic for "refugee" Supernal natives in the goddamn book.

You dumb mother fuckers.
>>
So what are the demographic break downs for mage? What percent joins the pentacle or the seers or a minor order?
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Is there anything more powerful than Exarchs in CofD?
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Look at this glorious no longer canon 1e take on Exarchs kicking True fae ass originally posted by Dave
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>>57968015
Either the Principle (assuming the Empyrean is to be taken as Truth) or the Oracles/Watchtowers.

Apparently the God-Machine is right under that.
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Questions and more questions....
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>>57966812
Yeah.

This one is from it ass well:>>57966003
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>>57966750
>Sure they can. They just use blood as both lubricant and cum. Giovanni Clanbook explicitly describes Elders making Ghouls and Blood Bonds by forcing others to fellate them.

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I WANT THE TECHNOCRATS TO MINDWIPE ME.
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>>57968150
Same desu. Can someone point me to the nearest reconditioning center?
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>>57968179
go to your friendly neighborhood ventrue instead, he can alter memories that span entire periods of your life with dominate 3 and a single turn
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>>57968206
Nice try Ventrue! I'm not falling for that trick again! Fool me once...
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Dave where are you!
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>>57967905
>Demenses aren't that hard to create

Hmmm, can supernals survive indefinitely in a demense?
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>>57967929
Fuck I want an abyssal frog familiar so badly.
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>>57967974
found this
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>>57966932
>>Obama runs guns, backs ISIS, expands surveilance, inflames racial tensions for fun and profit
>>Hillary bilks Haiti in the middle of ecological disaster, takes millionaire donations from foreign governments, rigs elections, kills whoever investigates or testifies against her
>>all of this is publically available information
>>BUTT DRUMPF IS LE REAL EBBIL U GUISE CUZ REESONZ
>Who do you think you're fooling?

People have a lot of reasons to dislike him, since he often acts against their interests.
It's not like they hate him because he has weird hair.

Trump has raped or sexualy assaulted a compared amount of women to bill cosby.

He is anti LGBT, in action if not word. He may have held a flag upside down, but he has mike pence as a running mate.

He repealed obamacare, and replaced it with something worse.

He shifted the balance in the FCC allowing net neutrality to be repealed.

He's deporting people who have lived in the usa since they were children.
Something worth thinking about is why are you playing white wolf games? They are pretty opposed to your political ideology.
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>>57968419
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>>57968419
>replying to a deleted post
>>
Why are these threads so awful
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>>57965149
zulo's +3 applies /after/ you blood buff.
I'm currently playing a 7th gen tzimisce with viciss 4. She fleshcrafts herself lethal damage on claws (one blood), and then blood buffs up to 7s in all her physicals (12 blood), and then takes zulo form to increase them to 10. This a spend of 15 blood, but it gives me 14 dice to hit, an 11-dice lethal attack, and a soak pool of 10. I can increase my soak pool even further using viciss 2 to turn strength into soak (and then just spend some blood to pump to 7 anyway. With time to prep, you can be SCARY GOOD as a tzim.
If you're ambushed, then you get a limited amount of blood you can spend per turn. Would you rather spend 2 blood to get +2 to dex, or spend 2 blood to get +3 to all physicals and an extra +1 to damage.
Zulo's not OP, for sure, bit it's just as good as turning into a wolf with protean 4.
>>
>demon is the closest we will ever get to a splat for self aware androids/AI
feels bad
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>>57968015
The Principle is beyond something the Exarchs can even think of interacting with or comprehending.
Duat and the other Lower Depths are similarly untouchable by any means save consent of archmage tier natives and only to the extent that pleases them.
Below that the Exarchs form the greatest portion of infrastructure for the God Machine.
Then there are of course the Exarchs themselves, and the ascended.
Then there are various supernal gods, etc.
Below that are the archmages and Cthonic Gods. Arch-Pangeaens, such as Father Wolf, WOULD be here, simply because in addition to the Diet Imperial arch-influence, Pangaeans use actual mage magic. But someone killed them.
Below that are the "arch ephemera" such as Luna, uber-Horrors, high tier Kerberoi, and so forth.

After that, we enter the realm of things with conventional stats that nonetheless cause the system to shit itself and die.

"Flaring" highest tier splats (a power level that doesn't usually stick around long); analyst demons while they are Going Loud (can arbitrarily combine exploits for pure insanity), Deceived using Blessed is the God King (Sekhem 10 and a bunch of other crazy stuff, 1/6th of a failed Judge in a mummy); rank 5 supernals (basically Masters with unlimited reach and bigger dice pools -- and requiring very weird arcana to affect, like how Matter governs what should be Mind for a Shade, but they fade fast).
The weirdest, strongest, max rank ephemera -- ephemeral master mages (aka liches), as they use supernal casting rules (which are insane), but they can be affected by fairly common anti ghost or anti spirit stuff. The strongest Echoes (Burned soul pact victims -- can combine demon, angel, and ghost powers under one roof). Rank 6+ cryptids. Presumably nu-rank 5 geists.
The strongest high tier splats at their peak (master mages, demons while they're Going Loud, Sekhem 10 mummies).
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>>57968580
unchained, unfleshed, IVF cyborg deviants, tech spirits, tech claimed, tech spirits in golems, cryptid-ified tech spirits, matter supernals, what more do you need?
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>>57968589
Not the worst homebrewed tier list I've seen

Stealing it anyway
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>>57968589
A few things:

1.) We don't know enough of the Principle to reliably place it anywhere. The proposed Empyrean (which would place it riiiight at the top) is as close as we've gotten.
2.) Duat is, all things considered, less untouchable/immutable than the Supernal by a wide margin. Lustrums are hardly entrance fees.
3.) The God-Machine and the Exarchs(among other Ascendants) barely interact other than through conceptual meanings. There's no disparity between the two other than absolutes.
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>>57968589
After that, we have crazy stuff that is ungodly strong but at least in a more conventional sense.

Most mages (adepts)
The higher tier, splat specific antagonists at their strongest -- the strongest of strix blood sorcerers, idigam, angels, qashmal.
Rank 5 ephemera of various sorts, especially the ones that are a little tweaked or otherwise merged with the strongest of low tier templates (pack totems, vampire blood sorcerer ghosts etc, empty wolves). Boneyard sin eaters probably fit here if they're as good as they were.
The "flaring" high tier templates when not in supermode (demons; supernals and mummies that have been left to sit for awhile).
"Ascended" low tier templates (maxed methuselah vampires with unlikely combinations of covenant powers and devotions, beasts with Merged Inheritance and using clever tricks, the highest primal urge werewolves with good influence, fetishes and gift tricks).
The weakest mages and and pangeaens (if someone didn't kill them off)
Common intelligent, rank 3 self aware spirit "citizens" (which, according to The Pack, are 20 dice average).
Unusually strong "minion" templated, proximi with good spells, demon offspring and stigmatics with lots of good embeds. Cryptids with lots of good numina, aether pools and form powers.
The oddball, high power splats (sin eaters if they're as good as they were, smart changelings and effective prometheans using weird combos). The strongest weird, physical antagonists such as high tier pandorans with insanely high stats.
Rank 2 ephemera.
The low tier splats (beasts, vampires, werewolves) when they're not using open ended powers. Conspiracy hunters, high tier slashers, deceived cultists and other "mortals with weird stuff tacked on". Minor templates from Hurt Locker.
Rank 1 ephemera.
Drones, boosted animals such as ghoul animals or ones with the Bonded condition. Most "Brief Nightmares" from core.
Mundane hunters, weaker slashers, normies.
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>>57968679
>1.) We don't know enough of the Principle to reliably place it anywhere.

Pyros and flux are also rare in that they're not covered by arcana like you'd expect (Pyros looks exactly like Forces/Prime but isn't), in contrast to how all the "deathly" splats but some mummy powers are covered by death. The effects of Pyros and all that, of course, are often things a mage can affect. If, of course, you don't view the Principle as the Empyrean that's fine.

>2.) Duat is, all things considered, less untouchable/immutable than the Supernal by a wide margin.

Other way around. Supernal is changed all the time, whereas no imperial force can touch a Lower Depth. Likewise, they can provide quintessences for archmages at will. The Lower Depths are as untouchable and immutable as you can get.

The Abyss should probably go up there somewhere as well but it doesn't have much in the way of fancy rules at the moment, and as far as I know everything Abyssal is arch-ephemera or ephemera.
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>>57968792
>Pyros stuff
That isn't enough conclusive evidence for anything. It's just not. This has been brought up so many times on the OPP forums that I get a migraine just from seeing it put forth again.

>Duat stuff
You misunderstand. You can gain entrance to Duat, you don't just *gain* entrance to the Supernal without comprehending the fabric of the code that either summarizes or represents anything. Thus far the Watchtowers have the sole "entities" capable of constructing a Lustrum for a foreign individual under the process of Awakening.

I may as well add that Archmages aren't above high level spirits, Kerberoi, True fae, etc as a default factor of their existence. You're going to have the majority under rank 8 anythings.
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>>57968589
From what Dave has said the God Machine exists as it does because the Exarchs give it symbolism. That hardly puts them under it.
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>>57968842

>You can gain entrance to Duat

By being destroyed beyond the point of existing as a thing that exists in the rules, I suppose. So you are technically correct.
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>>57968928
That summarizes the Supernal quite well.
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>>57968842
>True fae

What a true fae is isn't clear and will only probably become less clear over time. It may be a supernal god or it may be more like an arch ephemera. I would personally expect supernal god if you believe in the "Arcadia was part of Arcadia" thing and arch ephemera, obviously, if you believe Arcadia was never part of Arcadia.
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>>57968972
Dave has went through pains to remind people that Arcadia is no longer, in any way shape or form, other than "fae" symbolism, to be connected to the Supernal.

Whatever the living stories happen to be, it ain't from a linear reality or an overlapping code monkey bonanza.
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>>57968792
I recall Abaddon handing out Quintessence but not being untouchable by Imperial magic. The Lower Depths represent an absence of certain Arcana. Depending. The Strix apparently originate from an unnamed location down below, yet they're touchable by Death all the same.
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>>57968995
>Dave has went through pains to remind people that Arcadia is no longer, in any way shape or form, other than "fae" symbolism, to be connected to the Supernal.

So they are outside the paradigm of any mages? Or do you mean they are just part of the fallen world?
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>>57968995
Hence the last part of the sentence.
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>>57969012
Don't know and glad of it. The Hedge and beyond is cool because it's wyrd wyrd wyrd.
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>>57969012
Nobody knows. It's a Mystery. It's like a sideways tumor angrily clinging to the Phenomenal.
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>>57969007

>but not being untouchable by Imperial magic

Of course it is. I dunno why people like to use the positives of Imperial Mysteries but not the negatives.

>The Strix apparently originate from an unnamed location down below, yet they're touchable by Death all the same.

A Strix is probably not a Lower Depth.
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>>57969012
2e Changeling-Arcadia fits PERFECTLY as a Lower Depth.
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>>57969038
>A Strix is probably not a Lower Depth.

Inferno, Duat, Abaddon, the home of the Strix and the refuge of the Cwnn Annwn Legacy are all confirmed to be Lower Depths. There are some Underworld connections there as well.
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>>57969038
Which page is this described? I am seriously brain farting right now.
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>>57969071
Whoops I'm mistaken, they can use "the Irises ("Gates of Hell") that wound accursed places" OR a Rank 6+ Akathartoi. Color me R E T A R D E D

In my MUH OPINION, the archmage is still using a preexisting hellmouth and at most using normal or imperial arcana to simulate its trigger rather than mage penising through to the Lower Depths, but YMMV.
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>>57969090
It's a good opinion! Not opposed to it in the slightest.
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>>57969057
Lower Depth denizens are themselves still phenomena while they're in the Phenomenal World. It just means that when the strix gate closes, anyone still in it is gone.
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300th for Geist
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This discussion of NuWod really puts me off the gameline. Is everything in NuWod so boring?
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Shut up old man
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>>57969147
Nah. Just the big three mostly. oWoD is still better though.
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>>57969147
Its boring to you because it lacks the penis measuring elements (everyone's penis is pretty easy to measure)
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>All magick in the Umbra is coincidental
>All magick in the Nether Realm is treated as being vulgar with witnesses
Why?
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>>57969183
You say as if CofD magefags haven't masturbated myriad times in the past in these threads about "Luna vs Archmage", or "True Fae vs Archmage", or so on and so forth. Hell, it's even worse since they have their own developer enabling them at every turn. The vampfags aren't as toxic, but that's only because Requiem is the most boring and lifeless husk in a sea of boring and lifeless husks. No one actually plays it, they just pretend to as part of some vast conspiracy to convince people Masquerade is shit.
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>>57969199
What the fuck is the Nether Realm? You mean Malfeas? I've never heard of any rule like that concerning Malfeas, but I probably just missed something. Source?
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>>57969208
>The vampfags aren't as toxic,
In nwod, maybe.
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>>57969219
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
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>>57969215
Beyond the Barrier, Mage 2nd edition. It's jarring.

Nether Realm is in the Astral Umbra by the Spires. It's literally hell. Every time you get a point of paradox, you get an immediate backlash.
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>>57969237
Oh. My mistake. Thanks.
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>>57968589
>>57968763
Where do True Fae sit on this ranking?
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>>57969283
He's fixing it first
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>>57969267
Are there any special rules for Mages in Malfeas?
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>>57969283
You don't need a list to know where the Gentry sit. They're considered rank 7 entities. So above your average Idigam and below the likes of Luna, Sol and greater Seekers.
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>>57969310
You sorta do, actually. Undeniably, not all rank x things are created equal.
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>>57969394
While true, the Gentry are among the more quantifiable beings in the setting in terms of what their influences impose, if not in effect. They're largely killable by mundane methods out on Ironside going by the preview.
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>>57969307
I don't think so, which is why I was confused.
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>>57969425
>killable
Perhaps I should have used 'beatable' instead.
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>>57969425

Wait, so you can shoot them or whatever? Or what do you mean by mundane?
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>>57969483
Utilizing cold iron (or Siderite) through mundane methods depending on how they Manifest (could be anything from an actual monster to a building) and what their Titles go by.
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>>57969199
I never really understood this. Do Demons just not believe in magick? How are they able to regulate that?
>>
>start reading the Cainite Conspiracies
>first story is complete fucking garbage
I don't even know if it's worth continuing since the editor is evidently incompetent.
This probably explains why Ghouls and Revenants was so frustrating to read too.
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Anybody have those cookbooks for Werewolf and Mage that they released? I know it isn't actual ingame stuff, but I'm morbidly curious and very hungry right now -- though the latter's pretty irrelevant since I have no actual cooking skill. Unless there's, like, a Bone Gnawer recipe that amounts to opening a bag of chips and eating it.
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>>57966762
>Is this Mage the Ascension?
Yes. Literally Yes.
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>>57969425
>>57969394
The tier list needs to be majorly refined, but the sub-imperial things are largely about right.

The not created equal thing is basically:

1.most ghosts and goetia, assuming a not readily applicable anchor influence. A ghost anchored to a powerful supernatural is, of course, amazing. Goetia usually also fall under this category too, they're usually flat out terrible.
2. Normal ephemera. There are also slightly exceptional ephemera like a Retreated Horror that don't really belong in a separate tier.
3. Antagonist versions like idigam, geists (unknown but presumably they're laden with powerful effects), the vampire blood sorcerer ghost from Night Horrors, Echoes/Cryptid Ephemera, etc. 1e ghost mages, who have influences based off mage arcana but that are just normal influences, also belong here -- extremely useful due to how broad they are. Totems have something like 4x the normal amount of influences/numina, and you could put them here due to their ability to take Influence: Pack. Inferno, if used, probably falls under this category.
4. Ephemera Mages. Example being Pangeaens -- legendary beings that don't exist anymore, but they belong in a higher tier due to being full-on mages and have full on spirit powers. Their half spirit nature also insulates them from mage magic to a degree -- you need conjunctional Life/Spirit to affect one, and thank God conjunctional effects like this are rare. Morpheans and the other ephemera mage varieties, obviously, count; they have much bigger dice pools, infinite reach, etc. but they can be affected by a normal anti-ghost or anti-spirit power, whereas to, say, Unmake a mini-Father Wolf, he'd get his Clash of Wills, and you'd need Life and Spirit, which most mages would probably not think to use or have.
5. Supernals. They have the ephemera mage advantages of giant dice pools, but also require incredibly weird arcana to effect ie. who the fuck would think to use Matter to mind control a shade?
>>
On the Duat discussion. Things get a little more fuzzy as well because it's not exactly clear what the Judges(the real ones) are, or what the Shan'iatu exactly are or what A'Aru is.
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>>57969747
Its weird. At the imperial tier, things are slightly tweaked. Rank 6+ ephem have what you could describe as imperial influences that narrowly emulate archmage powers for free, besides essence, but a rank 6+ pangeaen is probably the most interesting kind of imperial entity; he has archmage spells (which he requires quintessences etc. for) and he has the rank 6+ influences too.

Ultimately, beyond arch-ephemera, pangeaens (who flat out use gnosis and arcana and everything else same as a mage) and supernal gods, any 2e rank 6+ thingies are EXTREMELY open to interpretation (and arch-influences are already highly open to interpretation, even in 1e).

Antagonists don't necessarily cleanly translate across the imperial divide -- an archmage who becomes Mad actually just becomes a qliphoth for example. So its quite possible that while a sub archmage can get a major power upgrade by becoming an ephemera mage, that an archmage's power can't be stapled to a ghost and that if he wants to use ephemera rules, he'd have to become some sort of supernal being, such as Divine Union.

Ultimately, I think Luna is basically an arch ephemera, and things like the Judges and True Fae probably belong in a unique category -- they are not literal ephemera, or even partially so, like pangeaens, though they'd probably use the basic ephemera mechanics like supernals and qashmal do. They probably use what are essentially imperial mega-influences, but a lot more broad. They would be closest to rank 6+ 1e ghost mages, in the sense that a True Fae probably has Influence: Fate and Influence: Time.

I think nwod needs a term for gameline specific NPCs, that use ephemera stats, AREN'T EPHEMERA, and usually either fancy mega-influences, PC type stuff (like qashmal use promethean powers and influences or supernals use spells), and have weird ass immunities (like needing matter for mind effects used on shades or strix being immune to mind disciplines). I'm thinking "proprietaries."
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>>57969905
And finally -- if we go with this presumption of the concept of "proprietaries" (or whatever you want to call "non ephemeral things, that use ephemeral stats, and are almost always npcs, that have weird immunities, and usually have powers based off the PC types they interact with) for true fae and judges, then I would expect them to have a combination of mega-influences even more similar than usual to imperial practices (for true fae, fate and time; for the judges, whatever corresponds to their pillar) as well as strong changeling powers (?) and utterances, respectively.

It is also conjecture that a true fae, in the new cosmology, is an akathartoi or that Arcadia is effectively a Lower Depth, but like Duat and the Judges fulfills all the requirements: a Lower Depth is basically "missing a vital component of reality, not dependent on the Supernal Realms, parasitizes off the Phenomenal World in some respect, very hard to get into and you are probably destroyed if you stay." The weird Strix domain also works for this quite well (them burning off a permanent Shadow Potency, iirc, and needing Shadow Potency 10, when they need to get in seems difficult enough to get into, and vitae is absent from their realm).

The essential thing to remember is that Lower Depth is also a *descriptive* term largely centering around how confusing it is to the mage paradigm (lower case p), how it misses a chunk of reality, and is parasitic.

>>57969888
They appear to be Akathartoi, if you envision Dave's description and appraisal as accurate. The major problem is that Judges and True Fae hardly feed on human evil, but the way that Judges devour sekhem, reward human sacrifice, and delight in the cultivation AND punishment of a specific crime comes awfully close, and many Changelings would view their Arcadia as Hell. Akathartoi doesn't even mean Judges and True Fae are related in any way under the Dave interpretation of Lower Depths, either.
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>>57955029
I know this thread was falling off the board, but fuck you.
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>>57970193
what's wrong with Princess that isn't wrong with Mage?
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>>57970362
Nothing. People just have an irrational dislike of fan splats even though they're still more interesting than all of CofD's shitty big three combined. In fairness though, Princess is arguably kind of a CtD knock-off, though I still enjoy it.
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>>57970407
>>57970362
If you like them so much go talk about them in the homebrew thread.

This thread is already full of nwod/owod cross talk. This literally isn't there place for it.
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>>57970441
I don't like them and would not use them under any circumstance

comparing mages to magical prancing princesses is not meant to be a flattering comparison
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>>57970407
There is nothing wrong with recasting the underlying concept (such as hopes n dreamz) of an owod splat into a nwod one in a different context or vice versa
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If I wanted to have a realm the Umbra that was basically like a variant of Asgard but not -THE- Asgard, where would I put it?
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>>57970441
It says it in the pastebin: talking about fan-splats is okay. Sorry to interrupt the unyielding stream of power fantasies and white room discussions, but your own personal standards are meaningless, so just hide the posts and ignore them or suck it up cause they're only very occasional and they're here to stay. Personally, I'd rather this become the Princess General then continue watching you fat retarded neckbeards screech over imaginary nonsensical pretend battles between your favorite splat daddies, but we all know that's never going to happen. Maybe if this shithole produced worthwhile content, however, you'd have a prosthetic vaguely resembling a leg that you could stand on.
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>>57970521
I agree... to an extent anyway. Hence why I said I still enjoy it. I was just playing devil's advocate.
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>>57970554
I know, I'm just "defending" Princess even though I would just play an eccentric Demon, Mage or Deviant (unless I was flat out invited to a Princess game)
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>>57970581
Ah. My bad. And yeah, I wouldn't go out of my way to play one either, I just enjoy it within its isolated context. I'll never forget my Courtless Seeker even if her time was short-lived.
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>>57970541
Then we use a different pastebin.
That will take all of ten seconds to copy paste without that pointless and incorrect line.

Talking about the fail-splats never creates positive conversation in here, and is only Bait topic. So whoever put that in there was trolling.
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>>57970606
Here is a paste with a timeless message for the general.

https://pastebin.com/Ahyf9CM2
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>>57970606
Under no circumstances can anyone from this thread claim the high ground about baiting and trolling considering the infinite vampire vs mage slap fights that have ruined this place.
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>>57970606
I don't know, I've had positive conversations the last few threads when people brought up Princess. Sounds like you're just buttflustered over nothing and overly judgemental based solely on your own misguided preconceptions about what is and isn't the case. If nothing else, I can declare with 100% certainty that it'll lead to more fruitful and enjoyable discourse than the 666666666666666666th iteration of vampfags vs magefags.
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>>57970656
Yeah it has done wonders so far
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Wraith 20 doesn't have merits/flaws?
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>>57970683
Gay. Wraith has some pretty essential merits and flaws
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>>57970682
>"lel XD self-fulfilling prophecy by shitting up the discussion i prove u wrong XDXDXDXD let's go back to our regularly scheduled routine"
Go read the past threads you fucking normalfag.
>>
REEEEEE shih would clearly win vs gypsies according to DHX20
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>>57970713
Naw. Lets talk more about vampires vs mages.
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>>57970683
I remember being pretty confused when I read that too... and bummed out. Merits and flaws are sometimes the funnest part about creating a character and it's really annoying to see them get completely ignored. Even M20 had a few of them in the corebook, albeit that arguably made it more insulting since it gave the readers a taste of what they were being denied. Oh well. Hopefully we can at least get them in a supplement a la Book of Secrets. If no Wr20 merits and flaws get released I'm gonna be disappointed.
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>>57970746
Vampire 20 has them too. I havent looked at wereyiff 20 to check but I think they have merits/flaws too. Only wraith has none.
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>>57970768
Yeah. I know for a fact all the other 20th Editions have them, which is what makes it jarring. Vampire, Werewolf, and Changeling all had an extensive amount of them (including Dark Ages Vampire). I suppose you could argue about whether or not C20 merits are too overpowered given stuff like Granite Skin and Crack Shot only cost 2 freebies, but that's beside the point.
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>>57970768
>wereyiff 20
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Akathartoi isn't really a term that actually means anything. It's a grab bag term like Lower Depths.
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It could be worse. Could be Genius fans discussions because Genius fans tend to by and large be assholes about it.
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>>57971438
Yeah. I just uses it to mean "powerful creature, that probably uses ephemera stats while not being ephemeral, that is from a Lower Depth, etc. etc."

We all know that the Judges did nothing wrong.
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>Wraith 20 missing pages
>Wraith 20 missing merits/flaws
>Wraith 20 missing a character sheet
>Wraith 20 grammar errors everywhere
>Wraith 20 overlaping skills

Sasuga Onyxo Pathu.
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>>57971771
>Wraith 20 missing Jews
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>>57971771
its only the preview manuscript, r-right?
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>>57970733
>REEEEEE shih would clearly win vs gypsies according to DHX20
????????
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>>57972171
In bizarro /tg/ its shih (vampire hunting hobos) vs gypsy shitposting I guess.
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>>57972216
You're just jealous that your cell isn't you and a runaway middle school girl.
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>>57972380
reference not understood




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