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Why do people defend the strife mechanic?


In my experience it is a bad mechanic that punishes people for not being shit at what they do

Am i alone in this thought?
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>>61334741
L5R general thread? L5R general thread.

Honestly I don't know anyone that is going to play 5E after having looked at the beta mechanics. My group will probably just use the books for lore and adventure stuff and keep using 4E mechanics.
Have that as a bump meanwhile.

Anyone got their hands on the beginner game? Verdict?
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>>61334741
Can you tell us about the biggest changes from 4e? Or is 5e completely different?
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>>61335643
It's completely different, but has similar theming. The rolling system is technically roll and keep, but it uses proprietary dice, rings are now directly stats (rather than being made up of stats), schools are made of two signature Techniques and a list of category techs they can learn (Kata, Kiho, Invocations (spells), rituals, etc)
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>>61336418
>proprietary dice

God fucking damn it, FFG.
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>>61335643
going from 4e to 5e is as much a shift as going from Shadowrun to d20 modern.
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>>61334741
>Why do people defend the strife mechanic?
It's a cool idea that punishes people less than the honor system (which is honestly a burning trash heap) while trying to enforce the theme of the game.

Unfortunately, it's still not very good and of course FFG has to try to sell a billion proprietary dice with any RPG system so actually sorting out what really happens when you have strife is jarring at best.
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>>61334741
You aren't alone, strife mechanics are fucking cancer and wtf have they done to kami and shugenja?!!?
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>>61336418
Thanks for saving my time then )
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>>61334741
Anyone got some ideas for urban random encounters? Specifically during topaz championship. Bonus points for ways to have the ronin get hassled.
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>>61337088
The Topaz Championship is always held in Tsuma, so I would start by looking up anything published about the place to try to get some tailored ideas. Strongholds of the Empire might help? There's probably some material in earlier editions too, but I don't know anything about them.
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>>61336493
There was some guy who kept saying that his players are all passive and strife makes them more engaged

Most likely he's just a shit DM
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>>61336563
Isn't it now some sort of BS like, everyone can commune with the Kami?
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>>61338276
Everyone can perform the kind of religious rituals they were assumed to be able to do before. A courtier or bushi can make offerings and hope to earn a kami's attention. It's just that all the benefit they can hope to receive is a vague omen or a very minor physical boon. Only shugenja can speak to the kami directly and get them to do what they want, rather than what the kami interpret that they need.
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>>61338276
The Unicorn can perform Horse Necromancy.
Kakita Bushi can Teleport.
All samurai are screaming man-babies now.
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Okay, so let me preface this by saying I know almost nothing about these two systems other than that they have somewhat similar mechanics and are or at least were made by the same people.

How difficult would it be to port 7th Sea to L5R and vice versa? I've seen shit about both settings on here and somehow got the idea to slam the two together and run Bakumatsu Rokugan where Avalon or Vodacce open trade with Rokugan and it's forced to modernize and accept that it isn't the center of the universe. The players would be a mix of samurai and westerners having to deal with navigating the tense political climate and deal with hardline traditionalists trying to overthrow the pro-modernization emperor.

I want to know if it is feasible to try to blend the two mechanically or just pick a system and wing it with houserules
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Anybody want to play some games on Jigoku? I'm still learning but I'm down to get stomped or learn with somebody else.
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>>61340889
There are a lot of problems smashing L5R and 7th Sea 1e together. I'll give two of the biggies.

First up: Damage and Wounds.

In L5R you have a death spiral for your wound system. It takes a total of 38 wounds to kill an Earth 2 Samurai. Along the way he takes increasing penalties to his actions until his last 8 wounds whereon he's knocked out. A Strength 2 samurai with a katana will do around 17 damage on average (5k2). That means he'll KO the other guy in 2-3 hits most of the time.

In 7th Sea 1e uses a check based wound system. When wounded you make a Brawn check vs your wound total and if you beat that total you just accumulate damage (called Flesh Wounds) until you fail. When you fail your Flesh Wounds wiped away and replaced by a single Dramatic Wound, unless you fail your check by 20 or more then you get a Dramatic Wound for every increment of 20 you fail by, ex fail by 23 and you get two wounds. Wounds don't effect a character until he takes a number of Dramatic Wounds equal to his Resolve, at which point he takes a die penalty (which does not apply to wound checks), and twice his Resolve which KOs him in most cases. A Broadsword deals the same damage as Katana so a two Brawn character will be inflicting the same damage as our samurai 5k2, and will inflict a Dramatic wound against a Brawn 2 opponent most of the time and will likely catch up the next round if his target makes a wound check. This means in most cases it takes 2 hits to inflict any penalty and 4 hits to bring the target down.

Second up: Action Economy

L5R has starting characters capable of doing only a single attach action in a combat round. 7th Sea Characters can start with 2-3 easily. Some of 7th Sea's action economy is ate up with active defenses, which would be damn near broken in L5R. L5R characters do wear armor while most 7th Sea characters do not but L5R armor is relatively weak as armor goes and those 7th Sea characters that do wear armor are hardcore.
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>>61340923
Always up for it
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>>61341576
Very cool. Maybe add me on discord? Playing with a friend right now who is also learning.

Liver#8216
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>>61341349
7th Sea seems like it tries to go for more cinematic action so it sounds like I'd want to just go with 7th Sea and houserule all the stuff I need from L5R that I couldn't just port
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>>61334741
>In my experience it is a bad mechanic that punishes people for not being shit at what they do
It establishes that there is a strain to maintaining perfection, rather than being an automatic and effortless state. You aren't required to use dice that will give strife, but if you want to be that perfect samurai you probably will, and you'll probably experience some inner turmoil in the process. If you don't work to alleviate that, it may boil over publicly.
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>>61340889
Why is this always the shitty scenario people try to twist L5R to? Rokugan is actually a high magic country. The L5R universe euro-likes tried to force trade open with firearms and got btfo for their trouble. Entire legions of demons that couldn't be killed with any number of generic soldiers try to break through regularly and get btfo every time. Rokugan really is the center of the universe as far as they care. Every divine force they know of has their back.
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>>61343560
To be fair, he did say he knew nothing about L5R, so he presumably didn't know most of that.
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>>61343639
I did say that, yes
The only thing I know about L5R is
>full ultra-weeb muh honor shit
>bunch of clans named after animals
>some demon infested badlands on the other side of a wall
>EVERYONE has a fuck you gaijin we da best mentality

>>61343560
Also I assume the reason everyone tries this type of idea is because the bakumatsu and the Meiji Restoration that followed it is one of the most interesting and most underutilized periods in Japanese history and it would be cool to explore some of the themes of that time period in a more fantastical not!Japan type setting. The reason I wanted to use 7th Sea is because I knew they were mechanically similar and were connected by the developer, and I didn't want to go full industrial revolution and end up just doing Last Samurai
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What even is Strife?
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>>61344181
>and were connected by the developer
Not actually true.
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>>61344466
In the final beta, iirc, it's a mechanic that measures internal conflict, and when it reaches a certain point you can either maintain your outward decorum and take a penalty, or suffer an outburst of some sort.
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>>61336445
i know
i hate this
and i have some 50 theme colored d10's as well...
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>>61344466
It's a mechanic that lets you "choose" if you want to succeed at climbing a wall but then break down crying/laughing/seething in anger or fail. And if you succeed and don't "choose" to have a psychological breakdown, you are very probably not going to succeed at anything anymore because you can't take more strife, which means you have a higher chance to fail.
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>>61345264
That sounds retarded
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>>61345297
Which is a shame because 4th edition is actually bretty gud. With the retardation that is 5e, I hope it won't project on 4th...
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>>61345297
That’s because it’s not even remotely how it works.
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>>61344181

Shame about how his creator turned out to be a literal piece of shit.
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>>61340536
>The Unicorn can perform Horse Necromancy.
>Kakita Bushi can Teleport.
Neither of these are any more ridiculous than some of the bullshit in previous editions. Are you forgetting the Kakita Artisan existed?

>All samurai are screaming man-babies now.
I'll give you this one.
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>>61336445
There's actually nothing wrong with the proprietary dice.
Everything ELSE in the system is loaded with problems, but the dice mechanic is sound.
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>>61345264
For something like climbing a wall, an unmasking would be more like stopping to catch your breath and cool off instead of stoically pushing on.
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>>61346223
Kind of patronizing in a way, from FFG... they think people are complete retards that don't know how to RP so they have to be told by the game mechanics.

Poor, stupid players need someone to hold their fucking hand.
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>>61346284
FFG clearly made Strife to be a "how to RP the struggle between face and feelings" tutorial.
One of the biggest issues with Strife that no one in this thread so far seems to be aware of is that it's pretty easy to manage. TOO easy. So easy in fact that it COMPLETELY STOPS MATTERING from rank 2 onward.
It's an awful mechanic, and the game would be infinitely better without it, but it's awful for different ways than a lot of people seem to think.
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>>61346284
It makes more sense in a high pressure, high stress court setting where slipping your On even a little bit can result in a feral pack of courtiers ripping you into tiny shreds.
But they wanted it to be a dice result, so it had to be applied everywhere.
Unmasking don't have to be highly dramatic or have any particular consequences most of the time. No one cares if a combatant snarls at their opponent.
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>>61343485
You don't need mechanics to introduce that subject to the game, the GM could pull that off on his own without any preparation

Forcing people to feel is still forcing them no matter the excuse that you "choose" how you feel

it's just an excuse for you fags who can't roleplay to save your fucking life and can't initiate any personal drama on your own, to feel extra snowflakey since the GM now has to cut away from the story so he can deal with your "SAMURAI DRAMA"

tldr: strife is shit, go fuck yourself
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Does anyone have scans of the beginner box? Still waiting on my copy and I want to play asap.
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>>61345676
The 1e Kakaita Artisan was an anomaly and you fucking know it. Reeeeeee Soesebee was a terrible writer and the Way of the Crane was about the worst of the Way of books for that reason.
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>>61346284
I don't know specifically if this mechanic is good or bad but you have a shitty attitude. Mechanics that affect role-play are a good thing.
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What's the best way to go about min-maxing a kakita duelist in 4e?
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>>61347484
Use Kyujutsu for normal combat and pump your Air Ring to the moon.
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>>61347484
Pump Air and Void, take The Empire Rests On Its Edge kata. You're basically done.
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>>61345297

That's because he's describing it very, very poorly.
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>>61346284
>Kind of patronizing in a way, from FFG... they think people are complete retards that don't know how to RP so they have to be told by the game mechanics.

It's no worse than 'Roll vs Embrassing Yourself in Public' (Which had a specific skill for it in the last edition). L5R has had social defence stuff for ages.
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>>61334741
>Why do people defend the strife mechanic?

It is good because it punishes rollplaying and makes combat more unpleasant (needed because lethality is dumped hard). But of course the whole mechanic is terribly executed despite being a fairly good idea, like 90% of the 5R5 rules.
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>>61347993

Should i rush the rank 3 by getting all the rank 1 skills?
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>>61348129
Is John Wick involved in this one? It just reeks of Wickian "I only know how to reinforce themes by punishing players mechanically. Also rollplayers are the highest evil and must be punished, damn the consequences." If rollplayers want to rollplay: let 'em. It doesn't affect me. What does effect me are obtuse mechanics that stop me from being able to roleplay two skilled swordsmen differently.
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>>61348193
I wouldn't. You need to keep putting points into Iaijutsu and whatever high skill you key Empire Rests off of, and you want to be a functional character outside of your one gimmick.
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>>61348290
According to the players, the GM almost never does combat, so i want to go straight into overspecialisation for dueling
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>>61348343
If combat is rare then you want points in non combat skills like etiquette, courtier, investigation, maybe some lores. Just having Kakira r1 is already such an enormous boon, you really don't need to rush r3, and having nothing but rank 1 skills will actively hamper you in everything else you do.
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>>61348278
He ain't, but the whole FFG reboot reeks from Wickism.
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>>61348391
I am actually a Shosuro being a yojimbo for a bayushi courtier player

The deal was that he starts shit and i finish it with the kakita bushi training
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>>61348426
Are you in the Kakita Bushi School like the original question said? If so it doesn't actually matter what Family you're in for the purposes of this discussion. And if not, there's even less reason to want to rush for the Shosuro re since it has nothing to do with iaijutsu.
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Scorpion for life
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>Oh hey FFG teamed up with Privateer Press to make new L5R minis
>Oh, they're limited production for PP's stupid loot crates
Aaaaaaaand once again FFG just almost does something good with L5R and drops the ball.
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>>61334741
alright lads, the extra pregens and the followup adventure module to the beginner game are now up on the website
Direct links:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d7/6c/d76ce547-6972-46f7-837f-fd5f551b8959/folio_crabcompressed.pdf

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/0b/df/0bdfec9e-7e6e-41b2-9b27-017262873931/folio_scorpioncompressed.pdf

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/75/50/7550e773-6796-4954-8439-4085b93bc0f7/folio_unicorncompressed.pdf

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/54/5d/545d40f0-3e88-406a-ab00-fecd7cea0875/l5r01dlc_adventurecompressed.pdf

>a topaz championship without a kakita bushi pregen
my friends, that just does not seem right
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>>61349808

Just goes to show how wrong their priorities are
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>>61350168
I mean, from a demonstration perspective, it makes sense. The original four pregens are the four big roles, bushi, courtier, shugenja, and monk, and then they assigned each of them to the clan most famous for them, using up their Crane slot on the courtier.
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>>61349808
Before anyone starts freaking out about what is and isn't on the character sheets on in the box rules: Remember the FFG beginner boxes always cut shit out from the core rules to be a super simple introduction to the basic mechanics.
We still have to wait for the core book's release to get a complete picture of the new edition.
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>>61334741

>Oh, a new edition of L5R finally came out
>proprietary dice

FUCKING DROPPED
U
C
K
I
N
G

D
R
O
P
P
E
D
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What's a good gift to give to my collague

We are both yoriki to a crab magistrate and he is getting married

He's a Kitsuki and the bride is a Hida, any suggestions?
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>>61351470
A good gift is sentimental and useless. The first poem you wrote, your great aunt’s second favorite tea cup, etc.
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>>61351579
I have a couple of levels in painting and i was thinking of making something, but i have no clue what i could possibly paint to fit a wedding theme
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>>61351777
You could do a portrait of the two of them.
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>>61334741
Which one is 5e? The version FFG is publishing?
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>>61351890
That's too generic and simple minded, i need to go further.....


I am also a Bayushi Bushi in the year of 818 and i am a ptsd riddled survivor of the battle against the unicorn, so maybe i should give him some horrific war images as a gift
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>>61351925
I don't think you appreciate how important portraiture actually is. Photography doesn't exist. Your painting will be the only depiction of their wedding they will ever have, and it will remain in their family, allowing their descendants to remember their ancestors for generations.
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>>61351925
You could just do a portrait of your friend looking heroic and cutting down a sinister Utaku.
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>>61351997
The only worthy ancestors are mine
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>>61352000
It's a silly fat Kitsuki, i can't make him heroic even if i wanted to try
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>>61351925
>>61351777

He's a Kitsuki, she's a Hida.

Paint a dragon flying through a lightning storm atop the Carpenter Wall.

It's his family Mon mixed with the great symbol of the Crab clan.
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>>61352161
But i am a Scorpion, they'd call me a cunt the moment i showed that thing
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>>61351997
Thinking again, your suggestion is pretty valid for the pragmatic Crab clan and a dragon weirdo
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>>61352254
You're a Scorpion. They're going assume your painting is a subtle insult regardless of what you make.
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>>61352642
That's actually why I suggested the portrait be of his friend, a new husband, striking down a member of a matriarchal family (and he could pass it off as a product of his PTSD)
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>>61352791
See, personally, as a Scorpion, I prefer to let them draw their own conclusions for what the insult could be.
It allows me to more authentically deny I meant any slight.

Just paint them a nice painting, and when they complain about the insult you hid in it, ask that they explain themselves, that you hid no secret message in the painting. Now they have to tell you what they SAW, and that tells you their weaknesses.
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>>61352963
If this is the wedding of a friend and colleague, why would they assume you hid an insult in the first place? They clearly like you enough to invite you, and what would an insult even gain you?
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>>61353135
This is Rokugan, friend. "Refusing to trust the Scorpion" is particularly part of the bushido code at this juncture.
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>>61353251
>particularly
*Practically, shit.
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>>61348129
>the idea of a tragic lesbian samurai romance between clans that's doomed to fail and will inevitable end with the lovers forced to fight each other to the death as the survivor holds back their tears after killing their lover is my fetish
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>>61353251
If the Scorpion couldn't play nice when required they wouldn't be tolerated. Contrary to the memes, Scorpion are not seeking every opportunity to dick you over for their own gain. The average Scorpion hasn't ever been involved in a sinister plot and may never be. What is demanded of them is that if it ever becomes required, they will do as they're told without compunction. And even then, Loyalty is the only virtue they care about, and that includes reciprocal loyalty. If you make a genuine friend of a Scorpion, they'll do their best to not fuck you over.

And then on top of that, the Scorpion who *are* out for personal gain are *bad Scorpions*. They certainly exist, but they're not what you should aspire to, and especially not as a PC. You do the dishonorable for the benefit of the Empire, because no one else will.
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>>61343560
I wouldn’t necessarily say the gaijin were BTFO. Considering their significant disadvantage in numbers, they did very well for themselves.

There’s also the fact that gaijin pepper is portrayed as godmode hax and made the Daidoji fight off forces several times their size, while the Tortoise exist expressly because the empire is scared shitless of gaijin returning in force with guns and cannons.

Not to mention the whole Kali Ma incident showing that other countries have demons too, or the fact that the War of Dark Fire showed backwards savages could inflict heavy losses, or that not-Rome is said to be able to squash Rokugan if they really wanted to.

Rokugan is in a decidedly shitty position if a less Luddite society decides to wage war on them for real.
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>>61351895
Yeah. It apparantly uses a mix of roll and keep and their crazy proprietary dice thing, like EOTE.
Honestly, wonder why they just couldn't keep the normal roll and keep from 4E and do some light mechanics fixing.
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>>61353392
>You do the dishonorable for the benefit of the Empire, because no one else will.

The side of this is that, while most Scorpion will not personally be involved in any sinister plot, they must be PREPARED to be in one, in case the Empire has need. Or in case someone more important than me needs it to enact their duty.

The Dragon/Crab's distrust of my gift does me no insult, because it is a testament to how greatly my ancestors valued their Duty. And it is USEFUL to me, because it shows me where they could be attacked, and, if necessary, where I could attack them.

Loyalty and Duty are our virtues, but Duty to the Empire is first. I would not learn my friend's weaknesses to harm him. I would learn them in case they are ever important for the Empire's safety.

Note: I am not the guy who's actually playing the game. I was just one of the ones who suggested an option, and am explaining why I would take that option, were I playing a Scorpion.
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Hold up
The emperor has two children in the new timeline?
Can anyone fill me in on the major differences so far?
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>>61353704
From what I understand, it goes like this:
In the old timeline, the Empress and her eldest son (Satorii) were kidnapped by Bloodspeakers because the cult wanted to hasten a prophecy that Fu leng would rise "when the last Hantei was on the throne". So if they could kill off the current emperor's bloodline, he would, by default, be the last Hantei, since he was getting on in years. Satorii was rescued by a ronin who had a crisis of morality, but the empress (and her unborn second son, Daigotsu) were kept as hostages. When Daigotsu was born, the Bloodspeakers raised him as one of their own, and he eventually came back to found the Spider Clan. Meanwhile, the entire Hantei family (except for Satorii, who gets rescued by Isawa Kaede) gets murdered by the Scorpion Clan in their attempted coup, because they also heard the prophecy, and decided that killing off the entire Hantei dynasty immediately was the only way to be safe. Bayushi Shoju takes control of the empire for about a week before he gets his shit kicked in by the combined forces of the six other great clans, since he just killed the entire Imperial family in cold blood.

In the new timeline, meanwhile, none of that has happened. Satorii and Daigotsu (now Daisetsu, since he hasn't gotten his adult name yet) are both chilling safely in the Forbidden City, and while Daisetsu isn't exactly on the straight and narrow, he's less of an irredeemable asshole as his brother, so the current Emperor has set him up as next in line for the throne, with Bayushi Shoju as regent until the boy comes of age, since he plans on retiring effective immediately.

So now, there's no (immediate) threat of the Spider Clan lurking in the wings, Shoju has come into power far more carefully (ensuring that the Scorpion can still be an active player during the Clan War arc, instead of getting banished) and there's an immediate threat of a succession crisis brewing, since Satorii is an asshole and won't take loosing the throne well
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>>61353682
As neither of us is the guy actually playing, we don't know what his working relationship with his colleague is like. But apparently it's good enough for him to invite the Scorpion to his wedding. They have a shared history and have presumably formed *some* kind of bond. And given that and the value Scorpion place on Loyalty, including to friends, and the generally inoffensive nature of the majority of Scorpions a samurai will encounter, what reason does this Kitsuki have to suspect that the gift of his friend includes some kind of insult? Especially since the plan we're talking about seems to be not to actually include one. Is this Scorpion to say "Here's your painting-- try to guess what's rude about it" when handing it over in order to prompt his colleague's suspicions? >>61353251 amounts to "everyone knows you can't trust a scorp, lol," but that's just not true. The majority of the time you can, and especially if you've become close to them. If you couldn't, they wouldn't exist any longer.

As kind of a secondary thing, apart from whether the recipient would suspect anything, Emerald Empire talks about Scorpion customs, and suggests that they take weddings very seriously and sincerely. If a Scorpion were invited to a wedding, they very likely would not try to pull some kind of ploy, regardless of how useful it might be.
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>>61353922
I completely forgot about Daigotsu being Sotorii's brother. Because he wasn't born until after the kidnapping, Sotorii's was usually referred to as a single child as the imperial court didn't know at that time. Cool. Also, can't believe I didn't see Daisetsu = Daigotsu.
Looks like a setup for a different and hopefully less dumb conflict.
Is the prophecy of the last hantei a thing in the new timeline too?
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>>61349808

Well yeah. The Crane are known for being cultured courtiers, the Kakita Duellists are an extension of that but they are not the core of it.
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>>61354033
I don't think it's been established yet, but it's still on the table, since it hasn't been actively disproven yet.
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Which school is better, tsuruchi archer or tsuruchi bounty hunter?
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>>61354550
Archer is a murder machine. Bounty hunter is situationally useful at best.
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>>61354015

I think you misunderstood my point with >>61353251

I didn't say that the idea that scorpions can't be trusted was RIGHT, merely that it is widespread through the culture.

I honestly don't know how you could have missed this. "The Scorpion Clan is untrustworthy " is the opinion of literally EVERY major clan except, as far as I can tell, Phoenix.

"The most successful villains of the greatest plays in Rokugan are ALWAYS Scorpions, because samurai don't trust Scorpions."

>"If you couldn't trust them, they wouldn't exist any longer."
You mean like the multiple times the clan has been exiled, banished, or dissolved, because the other clans felt they'd finally gone too far?

Again, I honestly don't understand your confusion here. The Scorpion are distrusted throughout the history of Rokugan. Even when they're in charge, people assume they're cheating somehow.

This campaign is taking place right after a battle where the clan sent thousands of their own men to be slaughtered, so they could STOP being in the limelight for a while, because it was making it difficult to spy on everyone effectively. The dude's character is a survivor of that slaughter!
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>>61354780
I'm saying that, while "you can't trust the Scorpion" may be widespread, it cannot be a particularly strong influence or they could not exist as a Great Clan. If you can't even trust a Scorpion colleague not to insult you at your own wedding, how can you possibly trust one enough to engage in commerce, or diplomacy, to arrange political marriages, or exchange students, or any of the other things that samurai do with each other?

And because the majority of Scorpion are never involved in a plot, most samurai have more direct experience of the Scorpion being, in fact, about as trustworthy as anyone else than do of being stabbed in the back. The best villains in the famous plays may be Scorpions, but you don't live and work with kabuki characters. It would be like concluding that all Germans are murderous nazis after watching a number of war movies, despite working with a guy from Munich for months on end and having him at your wedding.
>>
>>61355007
This. Most people won't trust the Scorpion as a whole organization. Individual Scorpion can fairly easily make themselves look like "the one good Scorpion" to specific individuals, and since no one else will openly talk about their shadier or embarrassing dealings, it's easy to keep it compartmentalized. It's not super rare for them to "fix" things in favor of their allies or even potential allies.
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>>61354033
>Daisetsu = Daigotsu

He is even getting his loyal waifu. The story for pic related is by far the shippiest fic I have ever seen for L5R.
>>
Do the forest killers exist outside shinomen mori? Need a bandit group on the crane-wasp-scorpion border
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>>61353922
It should be noted that they didn't really "raise" Daigotsu. They fused his unborn soul with an oni and cast him into hell. Daisetsu should be a completely different person, raised in an Imperial setting by an actual family and not being actually, really half-oni on a fundamental level.
>>
>>61355007
Let's clarify that argument.

It's not "concluding that all Germans are Nazis". It's working with a Neo-Nazi in 1990's Germany. Sure, he's fine at work, very friendly, buys you a pint after work. He likes the same football team you like, but you are also constantly aware he has motives you don't like or agree with, and that the people he respects and idolizes ruined millions of people's lives for years, and almost destroyed your entire country.

And you watch movies, where they remind you "hey, that guy's idols? An attack on the very fabric of what makes our nation great." You go home at Christmas, and hear the story of how grandpa died fighting Nazis in the war, or how great-uncle lost his business when they accused him of bullshit. But HE never fucks with YOU, even helps you with some great business deals.

And then you get married to a black woman, and you HAVE to invite him, because you've worked together for years, and it would be a real dick move if you didn't. And not only does the Neo-Nazi show up, he shows up with something that appears sentimental: a piece of art he personally made, of you and your wife.

So now your options are:

Either this Neo-nazi is totally cool, and maybe the Nazis weren't so bad after all.
OR
The Neo-Nazi is somehow being a dick, and you just don't "get it".

Except it's worse than that, because the Scorpion aren't Neo-Nazis, who are generally considered average intellects at best.

They're ALSO the fucking Illuminati on top of it. Scorpions are better at lying than you are, they know everyone's dirty little secrets, they're always secretly laughing at everyone.

It's the fucking traditional stories of their people: "we met all the representatives of your families, we tricked them, and showed them we were better than them."

THAT's the position you're in. You're saying you wouldn't spend some time looking at that painting? That you would automatically dismiss it if your wife thought there was an insult in it?
>>
Anybody want to play a game on Jigoku? I'm still learning so I'm down to learn with somebody or learn while losing.

>>61341605
Was me, so feel free to add me on discord.
>>
>>61356204
It's very much like concluding all Germans are Nazis.

>He has motives you don't like or agree with, and the people he respects and idolizes ruined millions of people's lives... and almost destroyed your entire country.

The coup was a long time ago. All of those people are dead. And there isn't a single clan that has not almost fucked things up for everyone. Scorpion motives are, again, not that sinister. There was a Scorpion in the Seven Thunders both times. A Scorpion literally wrote the book on law enforcement. They helped set up the government. Your country would not exist and could not function without them.

>You watch movies, where they remind you "hey, that guy's idols? An attack on the very fabric of what makes our nation great." You go home at Christmas, and hear the story of how grandpa died fighting Nazis in the war, or how great-uncle lost his business when they accused him of bullshit.

Samurai wage war. Even if your grandfather was killed by a Scorpion, you can bet that his grandfather was killed by a Lion, or a Crane, or a Crab. And the odds are about even that your Grandfather was or wasn't the aggressor. But you know what? The odds are also pretty good that your grandfather married a Scorpion, or his grandfather did, or so on. You hear about how a Scorpion ruined your uncle's business, but you also hear about how a Crane cornered your other uncle into a duel he had no hope of winning.

>traditional stories of their people: "we met all the representatives of your families, we tricked them, and showed them we were better than them."

The traditional stories "This is how you fucked up, it's a good thing I'm pointing it out instead of taking advantage"?

And then you've worked with this guy for years and never had a problem?

Yeah, if I invited him to my wedding, I would not look twice at his painting thinking there was an insult there. The wife is different, they aren't coworkers. But I would hope she trusts me when I say I trust him.
>>
>>61345718
I just don't like having to buy specific dice for this one game. Let me use the dice I use for literally every other RPG. It's just a way for FFG to make more money.
>>
Well, apparently the Kolat are back. What fun.
>>
Okay, so I've been hearing a lot about this game and it got me interested enough to do a bit of research into the lore and such, and now I only have a few questions left
>1, what sort of dice system does it use, assuming it even uses one?
>2, does the card game have any real differences in the lore and if so, how?
>3, does it really end in a very dark souls like manner with the whole of Rokugan being consumed by Oni and the spider clan being all evil?
>4, if the lying darkness is so evil why do the Scorpion use it, and on that note, why is the Scorpion allowed to practice it as it would be fundamentally different to shugenja magic and noticeably evil?
>5, on a similar note, how is it the Spider clan was allowed to continue to exist if everyone knew that they openly practised Maho and had absorbed samurai families known for being otherwise edgy and evil assholes?
Thank you for your time and potential assistance.
>>
>>61361838
Dude almost all your questions can be answered in five minutes of googling shit.
>>
>>61356849
I am the Scorpion who wants to offer the gift, me and the Kitsuki(PC) have known each other for about a couple of weeks but i made an off hand remark to his Hida bushi wife(NPC) that she should watch out for him as i was leaving the town on horseback to chase after a thief who stole from the local daimyo

That remark actually saved the Kitsukis life an hour later.
He was interrogating a peasant then things turned sour and the peasant was proven to be a maho tsukai that attacked him and one of our two ronin players, his future wife burst through the door and saved him by applying tetsubo to the face

Thanks to that, they both like me and invited me to the wedding so now i am on to this predicament of having to bring a gift
>>
>>61334741
I think Strife is neat, but not in the intended way FFG was shooting for. It can enhance roleplay, but it also hampers it greatly. In court, I think its great as it makes sense for you to become strained. In combat, meh, it makes your job harder, makes fights take forever, and its an extra thing you have to keep track of.

>>61346223
Cool, that doesn't need to be reinforced through a keeping track of something that affects you universally.

>>61346307
It is easy to manage, between times when it doesn't matter. When in a combat, when you are fighting for your life, you take strife, which makes sense, except it makes you worse at fighting for you life. "Oh, break your On." Cool, I'll do that in my fight for survival against a demon from the Shadowlands. It is too universal, I like it in social situations. After that its just an annoyance.
>>
>>61363413
Having an outburst in most combats has like zero consequences though.
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>>61363461
Yeah, my issue with it is having to do it at all in combat, the only person it really affects are the fools that take cowardice, in which case, your first combat will also be you last.
>>
>>61363476
I agree it shouldn't be part of the combat mechanics, I'm just pointing that out as part of the idea that "strife quickly becomes a non-issue."
Strife should have just been a social "combat" mechanic and the Strife symbol on dice should otherwise have been treated like Threat in Genesys.
The 5e beta wouldn't have been such a disaster if FFG wasn't so fucking stubborn about keeping their shitty "how to RP a samurai" tutorial mechanic.
>>
>>61363576
I think Strife would have been better for going with opportunities, not as an opposition to, but as an additional cost to them, instead of having them attached to successes. You strain your self for that extra inch, this lets you be optimal, lets you still succeed if the time comes, but also keeps you in check from doing extra. You keep adding strife, not for doing what you are supposed to, but for pushing that inch. That would have been better.
>>
>>61363628
Your logic is sound, I'm just thinking in terms of not needing to change the dice faces that are already printed.
>>
>>61334741
Do Samurai have to act honorable or can they can like historical samurai and break the rules when they know they will get away with it?
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>>61364092
The whole Bushido is about keeping up appearances, few clans actually care about the meaning of it, it's just that a god wrote it therefore they have to adhere it and it would dishonorable to not do so

You can get away with things but others would usally notice and use it against you
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>>61364092
>>61364394
Honor points go up and down regardless of if someone is around to see you do something or not.
The excuse they use is "your ancestors are always watching."
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>>61348395
I don't think it does. The FFG reboot wants to be more authentically Japanese, and that's it's own particular brand of gatekeeping.
>>
>>61354647
Can confirm. I played a tsuruchi archer and man... they are fucking murderous monsters with a bow and arrow.
>>
>>61362959
Also,it's 818, three or two years ago the Scorpion suffered a massive defeat against the returning Ki-rin and now nobody considers them a real threat

My story is simply that i fought there
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>>61365278
We've already offered the idea of the portrait which sounds like the most secure route, the only thing even potentially better would be some extremely well made item, probably for the Hida woman a weapon of some kind, probably a tetsubo, and not the decorative kind either, the crab value function more than form, but for the kitsuki perhaps a painting with many intricacies something that draws the eye but requires a bit of thought to truly get whats being shown/said, as something for both, well, the portrait is the only one to go with in that case, the problem will be getting them to be still for it, or at least proposing it
>>
>>61365325
I can't get a tetsubo for the wedding unless i decide to give them mine, but that was a gift for catching that thief and giving it would be an insult

Also, painting supplies are fucking expensive man so any idea is a good idea, but so far the portraits is my fallback plan in case nothing else comes to mind
>>
>>61365388
Do you have anything on your person or at your home that has some sort of significance yet not enough so that you may gift it?
Example: A china tea set that belonged to your great grand-aunt or the katana of the first opponent you slew in a Iajutsu duel, something with some significance that can be parted with easily you know?
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>>61365461
>the katana of the first opponent you slew in a Iajutsu duel
>touching another man's sword
>touchign a dead man's sword
How unsightly!
>>
>>61365461
I came to the town a couple of weeks ago and i only have practical possesions, i spent most of my money on kimonos and the painting set
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>>61365491
Found the Crane, taking it up would be a sign that you honour the opponent's death and intend to carry on their fight, or so Matsu sensei claims, she's awfully scary, but you didn't hear that from me
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>>61365511
But that's only if there is nobody else around

i don't want to bother with having to send a dead man's sword back to his family ESPECIALY if i am the one who killed him
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>>61365529
Why, did you kill him in an illegal duel? Is that it?
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>>61365529
You're a crane, you have access to serf networks that can do that for you do you not? Besides only a truly cowardly sort would refuse to honour a dead-man's legacy by refusing to return his items
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>>61365542
That is slander towards my name!

I challenge you to a duel to the death! this kenshizen that blurs all reality next to him shall be my champion
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>>61365562
That's neat, I'll let my Kensai know he has someone new to cut up. The last iron bird didn't last long at all, despide the reassurances I was given.
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>>61365584
Things are heating up between you two it seems, so, a duel between the crane and... I'm sorry it's very dark here I can barely see your clothes let alone your Mon, may I have the Participant's names please?
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>>61365584

Haha, you are tricked!

I am actually the scorpion from earlier disguised as a crane

That Kenshizen was leading an investigation against Scorpion interests and we wanted him dead

Also, i place poison inside your champion's sheath

Have fun going on that adventure

bye
>>
>>61365511
If you get into a duel, returning the daisho of the deceased is both good etiquette and a sign to magistrates that you didn't straight up murder someone and pretend it was a duel. Also means the family can start a blood feud against you in the spot, but that's not a concern of the law.
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>>61365617
>Leans toward the Crane
He does realise that the Kenshizen hasn't gotten out of the hot springs to get his equipment yet, right?
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>>61365645
I get the feeling this is one of those Winter courts that quickly becomes a Summer war
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>>61365617
Also, i murdered the Crane ambassador and placed bloody scraps and the tool of murder in your room

Have fun fighting that war you like so much
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>>61340889
My friend is trying to, but results are not playable so far
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>>61348074
Etiquette is a shoelacing roll only if yor GM is shit. It is actually "do stuff people normally can't get away is because you do it in a proper manner"
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>>61348074
What kind of shit GM have you been playing with if that's all Etiquette was for you?
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>>61347481
>Mechanics that affect role-play are a good thing.
Rarely.

I don't want to be told what my character feels like when he meets a new NPC or talks with a woman: I want to be in control. Because it's my PC.

Dice have a time and place, but they should stay out of the way when I make a decision of wether I tell somebody off because I'm annoyed or shrug and stay cool with whoever I'm confronting.
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>>61365898
>I want to be in control. Because it's my PC.
And you are. You can say, "My character won't be Unmasked here." Simple as that. You will suffer somewhat, because you're doing the social equivalent of "I don't want to take damage from that attack - it adds up." But you can use other ways to remove Strife than Unmasking. Even if you do drop your character's outer shell of stoicism, it's your choice how it happens.
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>>61366626
I love the fact that many times unmasking has "no consequence" whatsoever
Really gets me thinking about why you would need such a mechanic in the first place :^)
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>>61347484
Void is all you need if you only care about duels, but duels don't actually happen all the time, so you should be good at something else as well. As suggested above, Air is a good way to branch out a bit. Reflexes are godly in the early game, Awareness is useful for social skills, though I suggest taking one of those merits that give you 1 rank in all artisan/performance skills instead of getting multiple of them manually. Generally speaking, I suggest not getting skill ranks outside of rank 1 (for explosions) or the rank 7 weapon masteries that explode your damage dice on 9s, as pumping rings is much, much better. You can have only Iaijutsu 1, Void 3+, and your Kakita school ability and still be an absolute monster at duels.
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>>61364421
Honor doesn't actually do anything useful unless you're in a school that uses it for something.
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>>61366787
Who said 'no consequence'?
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>>61357089
I can tell you from experience, proprietary dice are sometimes a necessity for realizing the vision you have of the mechanics.

Though, in case I actually do release a game that uses primarily proprietary dice, I would release the game itself for cheap and have the dice be the main "cost" of the game.
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>>61366862
Yes it does.
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>>61366871
Many other people I chatted with. An example: >>61346314
>Unmasking don't have to be highly dramatic or have any particular consequences most of the time. No one cares if a combatant snarls at their opponent.
>>
>>61366957
And that is...?
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>>61366970
It gives a flat bonus against fear checks and temptation checks. And if your GM has not used either of those, he's a failure of a GM.
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>>61366626
That's the bad excuse all of you come up with, the fact that you are still forced to feel doesn't change no matter how well you sprinkle it with the "You choose how you feel" bullshit, a loss of player agency is still happening and you're too busy sucking FF's dick to see it, or even worse, you don't care
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>>61366975
It's a negligible bonus to niche scenarios.
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>>61366991
>having 4 honour in average for a character
>negligible bonus
>when it applies to stuff like intimidation too
Sure, whatever you say anon.
>>
>>61366975
>>61366991
There's also an optional rule to let characters reroll some failed checks rolling and keeping dice equal to their honor rank while putting an honor rank on the line should they fail it again.
Honor rank is actually very important in a lot of social situations, and there's just as many schools that can use it against you as there are that use it for their own techniques.
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>>61367027
Fear comes up sometimes, but temptation and intimidation never has in my games.
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>>61367149
That's a failure on the GMs part, not the system.
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>>61367147
>Honor rank is actually very important in a lot of social situations
In which social situations?
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>>61367164
Any situation where there's more than one courtier in the room.
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>>61367175
What did you mean by this?
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>>61366975
It's also reflective of your actions in character, so if you're going around being such a dishonorable douchebag that your rank is really that low then don't be surprised someone higher up the ladder than you gets sick of your shit and orders your death, by your own sword or someone else's.
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>>61367162
>That's a failure on the GMs part
All 3 of them? I'm sure.
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>>61367225
Getting stuck with 3 shitty GMs? That's unfortunate. But it's not surprising with L5R, there's a lot of people out there that just can't seem to comprehend how the game actually works.
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>>61367186
Honour(Bushido) is linked to awareness, not intelligence
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>>61367245
You mean the check for discerning honor? That's TN 30. Even if it works, so what?
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>>61366967
Weird. It's still going to be something. Otherwise there's no reason to remain compromised by Strife.
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>>61366984
Except you aren't forced to unmask. That's the point. There's a mechanical effect for not unmasking.
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>>61368290
Which is simply a bad reason for people to be forced to do shit they don't want to

>You aren't forced to umask

At the expense of your basic human functions, yes
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>>61334741
Is there a list of all the 5E stuff alrready in existence? I can´t comprehend it the way it´s listed on FFG´s website.
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>>61368326
Right now, it's the beta, the beginner game (which is simplified from the normal rules), and a beginner game companion adventure on their website.
I believe there was also a beginner game-tier adventure at Gencon, but someone needs to scan that for it to be available.
The actual core rules aren't out yet.
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>>61368325
There's nothing forcing you to behave in any particular way. You might as well complain that you die at 0 hp, and the loss of character agency offends you.
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>>61334741
Can someone explain the strife mechanic?
I'm currently out of things to be upset about and would like to join in, thanks :)
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>>61369036
That doesn't change the fact that you are still forced to have emotions because dice, stop giving me the shitty excuse that you "Choose" how you feel when what this shitty mechanic does is force you to have emotions and if you have too many you become useless
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>>61369223
>slight penalty
>become useless
Christ you sound like the type of person who throws a tantrum any time the GM doesn't pander to your power fantasy.
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>>61369223
> what this shitty mechanic does is force you to have emotions and if you have too many you become useless
I want you to explain what, exactly, you think the penalty associated with being Compromised is.
>>
Oh how cruel the wind,
parting and un-parting leaves
over your pale form!

Speak, o silent pool,
of the beauty you caress
behind jealous boughs.

Were I as patient
as the rocky, dew-slick bank
I too could wait so.

Alas, my ardour
burns for you without surcease--
still you bathe alone.

Empty is my heart,
and I languish in this life--
without you, a void.
>>
>>61369310
>>61369397
You can't keep dice that have strife on them unless you have your baby moment nevermind the fact that 3 ouf of 6 sides of the trait dice have strife on them and 3 outf of 12 on the skill dice, which basicaly translates to "this mechanic becomes meaningless in higher levels" except in social situations where others force this shit mechanic on you

>Christ you sound like the type of person who throws a tantrum any time the GM doesn't pander to your power fantasy.

And you sounds like a faggot who can't see an unhealthy mechanic when it's shoved down your throat
>>
>>61369223
>That doesn't change the fact that you are still forced to have emotions because dice
You have a choice. Stoicism yes or no. If you say yes, then penalty. If you say no, then you decide how emotions come through.

If you managed to stop misrepresenting and chicken little-ing, you might see it.
>>
>>61370116
Stop going through that same excuse all the time, it get's boring

No matter how many times you say the same thing, it doesn't change the fact that you are forced to have that choice regardless if you want to or not

>b-b-but you choose how you feel

And i don't really choose that i don't want to choose how i feel and instead move on with my life
>>
So, assuming Bayushi's coup works, does that mean the second day of thunder/fu lengs release is permanently or temporarily delayed? How would you handle it?
>>
>>61370407
>it doesn't change the fact that you are forced to have that choice regardless if you want to or not
Ok. Except you're not forced to choose Unmasking. Which is the feels.
>>
>>61370539
At the expense of not being shit at mundane tasks ,yes, you don't have to unmask
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>>61370557
You don't roll for mundane tasks.
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>>61370557
Yes. If you really don't want to lower your Strife, you can stay penalised. Why would you?
>>
>>61366975
If that's all it does, I'd say it's not worth the effort of keeping it high.
>>
>>61371264
Because trying to max it out isn't the fucking point of honor ranks at all.
It's intentionally designed so that hovering around rank 3-4 is perfectly fine for most characters. It's meant to go up and down, it's for players and GMs to track the impact a character's actions have on their internal moral compass, it's not like glory or status where your "goal" is to get it as high as possible.
>>
>>61371388
The start of the reply chain was someone asking if samurai must be honorable, to which the answer is they can be, but it doesn't get them much.
>>
>>61371430
Still though, if you're going to base how you play your character based around the mechanical benefits you get from it, go play a different fucking game.
>>
>>61371501
Mad?
>>
>>61346314
>Everyone is a Toshiro Mifune character
>>
>>61371785
That thing he does with his shoulders?

I've always been partial to Takeshi Shimura's head rub of "I wish I didn't have to deal with this, and still had my hair".
>>
>>61365898
You are an humongous faggot. Keep playing D&D, you are too retarded for anything more complex.
>>
>>61371948
Patrician taste
>>
Anyone know which book in 4e explains how love affairs go down?
>>
>>61372548
Emerald Empire or Book of Air, I think.
>>
>>61372548
Great Clans has it in the Crane chapter.
>>
>>61334741
So, this was decent strategy. Start a thread with a argument about a mechanic, as though the game has fans and there's a massive following, and not a game that officially came out a week ago and most people who know about it are meh.
>>
>>61372895
I have actually seen people who like the mechanics of 5e, just not here on the 4chins.
>>
>>61372894
Thanks senpai
>>
>>61372895
I just want to talk about L5R.
>>
>>61375353
Do we have enough people to make an L5R general though, and if so, what topics would we cover, or links would be present at the start, maybe a set of links to Last Haiku or the wiki, and would it be solely the role-playing game, or have the card-game mentioned too...
Do we have enough cause for it?
>>
>>61336418
>proprietary dice

Of all sad words of tongue or pen...
>>
>>61375887
We used to have l5r generals all the time, but since no one here is excited for 5e, and few people here really care about the LCG, there's not that much to talk about.
>>
>>61375887
The L5R general pops up every once in a while.
>>
>>61344181

Rokugan sounds a lot like America honestly.
>>
>>61365805
>>61365882

>Etiquette is a shoelacing roll only if yor GM is shit.

Or, you know, you're dealing with Scorpions where that is literally what you roll to defend against their school techniques.
>>
>>61376016
Current or Pre-Cold-war, or even further back then those two, cause America and Rokugan are almost complete parallels at times
>>
>>61344181

did he die?
>>
>>61367987

Being dishonorable is highly shameful in that society and makes you untrustworthy?
>>
>>61376042
Or literally anyone, since Etiquette is literally described as "social defense", courtesy and conversational protocol are among its specialties, and most contested social rolls have the defender use it.
>>
>>61376058
Only if it was expressly noticed by someone else, and if it was done for the benefit of your clan or the greater whole of Rokugan your ancestors are usually okay with it, "Usually" being the operative word
>>
>>61347354

She's a Unicornaboo now because "The Empire must change to accomodate us newcomers" is in keeping with the American political left. Note, I'm not calling her a bad person, or leftists bad people. I'm saying that she is a liberal with liberal friends and while she may not consider politics much in her daily life she probably feels more sympathy for the Unicorn now that issues of cultural shift and immigration are politically hot.
>>
>>61376077
>Only if it was expressly noticed by someone else, and if it was done for the benefit of your clan or the greater whole of Rokugan your ancestors are usually okay with it

No? A lot of anscestors have a minimum honor value that's decently high, after which you're a failure of a samurai and they'll abandon you.
>>
>>61376113

I mean 'The empire must change or it will fall apart' has sorta been an L5R thing for decades at this point. The setting has never really portrayed it's refusal to accept new things as a good cultural trait.
>>
>>61353279

I love that shit even if I don't care about the /u/ aspect. I forget what system it was (Reign, possibly) where one of the fluff bits is about two best friends and former rivals from different clans fighting a duel to the death, unhesitatingly and knowing that they're averting a war by killing the person they respect the most, and it's fucking great.
>>
>>61376058
So what's going to happen if someone has 3 honor? I'll tell you what: nothing.
>>
>>61376114
I don't mean ancestors as in the ones you pick from the Heritage part, I mean the supposedly ever present spirits of past heroes who are constantly scrutinising your every move and causing you to loose gain honour without people watching
>>
>>61376142

Except normally the "change" is "murder the people causing trouble", "shake up the existing clan alliances", and sometimes "new emperor". Also, you're wrong, the setting has portrayed not succumbing to gaijin influence as a good thing. I think you're confusing good with nice. Rokugan is not a nice place.
>>
>>61364706
>gatekeeping

Nigger leave, reddit misses you.
>>
>>61376206
Considering that the Gaijin have been making constant attempts to kill them then yes, it does make sense that their influence would be a bad thing, on Rokugan as a country at least
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>>61356204

I'm friends with too many /pol/acks for that argument.
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>>61366975
>>61366970

Worse, Honor is a stat other samurai can see with a good roll of the right skill. Which means that even if you look squeaky clean if you're a complete shitfucker that Doji Courtier is going to spot you as soon as you compliment her koi pond and find a way to make you duel her unsheathing-autist bodyguard.
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>>61366862

The best school in the game uses it because Honor is for winners.
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>>61376752
That is why all the Dishonorable Gits that want to live take a few levels of Perceived Honor. In a game I ran I had a deep cover Kolat PC that had like 5 levels of that shit to maintain his "Unsheathing Autist" cover. I had another player in that group that kept asking for Honor checks against him and was totally confused at his apparent 6.3 Honor total.
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>>61369623

Fucking nice, did you write that?
>>
>>61376752
Actually, it's more likely to go like this:
>succeed at a TN 30 check
>find out someone's honor is 3
>do literally nothing about this and go on with my day
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>>61376154

Well, let's see. If I'm a Mantis Courtier, I know I can bribe you. If I'm a Scorpion Courtier, I know I can blackmail you. If I'm a Crane Courtier, I know you either have enough vices or not enough self control and can maneuver you into a situation where my bodyguard kills you. If I'm a Spider Courtier, I'm going to be your new best friend and help you acquire sweet mutations. In all of these situations, you're my bitch. Every other Courtier type mostly just knows to avoid and distrust you, and will tell their friends.
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>>61376250

Exactly. Rokugan was previously portrayed as an outright conservative place, because it's fantasy Japan and that's the kind of society appropriate to fantasy Japan. The problem is, now ALL writing has to be political to "make a difference" and there's a Clan that people can pin their feelings about real life conflicts onto.
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>>61376897
>If I'm a Mantis Courtier, I know I can bribe you.
Nothing about low honor compels me to get bribed. I am missing out on literally 2 or 3 points on my temptation check.
>If I'm a Scorpion Courtier, I know I can blackmail you.
Blackmail me with what?
>If I'm a Crane Courtier, I know you either have enough vices or not enough self control and can maneuver you into a situation where my bodyguard kills you.
Even if that were true (one's etiquette pool has nothing to do with honor), why would you want to do that? Wouldn't you be the one to lose honor?
>If I'm a Spider Courtier, I'm going to be your new best friend and help you acquire sweet mutations.
Again, aren't you making some huge leaps here?
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>>61376797

This. The guy who said you only need 3 Honor is a dumb faggot. If you want low Honor buy several ranks of Perceived Honor and look better than most of the people who might accuse you of shitfuckery.

>>61376889
>do literally nothing about this

Why? If I'm Honorable myself, then I'm probably offended that you're a shitfucker. If I'm not all that honorable, you have a weakness I can use.
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>>61376946
>Why? If I'm Honorable myself, then I'm probably offended that you're a shitfucker.
Personally offended by what, exactly? If the nebilous crime of "low honor" alone was enough cause to start shit with someone, then low honor clans wouldn't even exist.
>If I'm not all that honorable, you have a weakness I can use.
What weakness, retard? One's honor has nothing to do with one's abilities.
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>>61376934

Go actually read their school skills and come back once you have. Especially the Scorpion one. By the way, are you legitimately autistic? Because it seems like you're only noticing the mechanical penalties and not the glaring social ones. For example, if it gets out that you're dishonorable good luck having a glorious career, you'll be shoved out of sight by your own family elders unless you're a Scorpion to rot in some mediocre posting.
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>>61376923
Unicorn aren't less conservative than the rest of the empire, they've just got different values that they want to conserve. They don't eat meat and ride horses to be contrarian, they do it because their ancestors did. The Utaku are just as autistically honorable as the Matsu or Doji, and even the Moto are so big on tradition that they won't stop using the wrong kind of sword or mutilating their foes.
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>>61376988
>Because it seems like you're only noticing the mechanical penalties and not the glaring social ones.
>hey, have you heard of Bushi Samurai-san? that guy's dishonorable
>yeah? what'd he do?
>uhhhhh....
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>>61376801
I did! I often do haiku for these threads.
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>>61376970
>Personally offended by what, exactly? If the nebilous crime of "low honor" alone was enough cause to start shit with someone, then low honor clans wouldn't even exist.

The fact that someone blessed enough to be born a samurai acts like an honorless cur is a good reason to get offended, firstly. Secondly...and this is the answer to your second point too...because you did something to get your Honor that low. The low honor schools are widely distrusted by anyone who knows what they are.

>One's honor has nothing to do with one's abilities.

No, but if you suffered honor loss from having an affair with your best friend's wife, that's something I can use against you. Or if you have a habit of casually murdering peasants to test the edge on your katana. Your abilities don't fucking matter when society itself decides it's time for you to die.
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>>61377016

You did something to get that Honor score. Even if it's not something grossly edgy...

>Yeah? What'd he do?
>He doesn't keep promises, and they say he has no respect for his ancestors
>What a bastard! Who'd trust that guy?
>Not me, that's for sure!
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>>61377026
>No, but if you suffered honor loss from having an affair with your best friend's wife, that's something I can use against you. Or if you have a habit of casually murdering peasants to test the edge on your katana.
Except you wouldn't know about any of these things just by figuring out someone's honor number. You're still left with nothing but guesswork for gathering blackmail. There might not even be anything behind the low honor score. As I said, if low honor was a death sentence, a lot of clans with low honor schools wouldn't exist at all.
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>>61376989

Yes, and the same applies to Muslims, a group the modern left has been conditioned to be protective of.
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>>61377043
Which is specifically called out as the baseless rumormonging of squalling infants who never deal with real problems.
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>>61377043
Gossiping literally results in honor loss.
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>>61376970
>One's honor has nothing to do with one's abilities.

Laughing Akodo Kensei dot jay pee jee.
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>>61376934
Your honour has an impact on whether or not you can be manipulated, it's weird like that but makes for interesting roleplay and can help move a story along or better shape a character according to whether or not they have high or low Honour
>>
>>61377077
>>61366862
>unless you're in a school that uses it for something.
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>>61377071

By who? You? The honorless cur? The society that denigrates honorless curs in the first place? Who's going to call this out and how? You? Well, you doing it doesn't work because nobody trusts you anyway and whoever made that TN roll probably has the stats to be more persuasive than you. Your friends? What friends does an honorless cur have? They'd be tainted by association. I know you want to be an edgy Sasuke type, but it just doesn't work, you have to be smart about it and you're insisting there's no need to because society will just recognize your innate PCness.

>>61377076

Gossiping and rightfully warning someone against a bad influence are two different things.
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>>61377081
But as mentioned before, the impact is almost completely negligible.
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>>61377101
By the entire clans of low-mid honor samurai who run around somewhere between 2 and 4 honor without being attacked for it. By all those low-honor not!ninja who make sure the honorable don't have to deal with it.
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>>61377102
The thing is you're thinking in terms of "I myself, know I am being tricked and will not fall for it" whereas if honour is used correctly it becomes more like "I myself know I am being tricked, but I can't get out of this situation without causing a scene which would dishonour me and my group/clan/team" which is a rather serious thing in Rokugan
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>>61377063

Honor scores don't just magically become low. You do something, even if it's part of your school training, to get that way. The low honor schools are ALWAYS distrusted, some to the point where they never openly acknowledge being a member among outsiders. If you're a Shosuro Shinobi, for example, your school DOESN'T exist at all as far as anyone will admit. As for gathering blackmail, just as an example, the Bayushi Courtier School explicitly has techniques to deduce from thin air what Disadvantages and dark secrets you might have. It might take a bit of scuttlework, a servant shadowing you on your trip to your paramour's room, scouring records to match up the stories of murdered peasants in villages directly along your path to Winter Court, but knowing you have shit Honor is a good starting point. More importantly it tells me not to trust you with anything ever, and if I'm a Courtier I can make that hurt you quite a lot.
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>>61377083

The joke that went over your head here is that Akodo Bushi is obscenely powerful, especially with Kensei.
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>>61376897
>If I'm a Crane Courtier, I know you either have enough vices or not enough self control and can maneuver you into a situation where my bodyguard kills you.
>Manipulating another into dishonorable behavior (-6 points to the average Doji courtier)
>Using false courtesy to gain advantage over an enemy (-6 points to the average Doji courtier)
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>>61376988
Or under the worse circumstances, made Ronin or forced to commit seppuku, or if you're a Lion forced to join the Deathseekers
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>>61377101
By the entire Scorpion and Crab clans, a significant number of minor clans, by a significant number of Daidoji, Ikoma, Shiba, Yoritomo, and Mirumoto, by anyone who dislike baseless rumormongers, by many courtiers who would just looove to be able to take you down for rumormonging because it's literally a gross breach of etiquette.
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>>61377120
>By the entire clans of low-mid honor samurai who run around somewhere between 2 and 4 honor without being attacked for it.

Which Clans? The ones who are socially attacked for it nonstop, or the ones that get a reputation of being boorish retards because people assume they just don't know better?

> By all those low-honor not!ninja who make sure the honorable don't have to deal with it.

Who are never openly acknowledged, would be squashed like a bug if caught, and are strongly advised to take Perceived Honor.
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>>61377164
>The ones who are socially attacked for it nonstop
You realize that they have their own courtiers and don't get run out of every court they go to. The Yasuki and Bayushi are everywhere, and if they catch you spreading baseless rumors about them being dishonorable, they can declare a duel, expose you to everyone (dropping your honor significantly), or if they really want to, have you disappeared in the night. Gossip is dishonorable. Anyone with a score of 6 or higher who keeps doing that will quickly have a score of 4 or lower.
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>>61377102

Mechanically, but in terms of what actually happens in the game world it matters a great deal. Another factor you're ignoring is that you can't just ignore Honor and keep it at, say, 3. There's a baseline standard of behavior needed to not lose Honor, and there are a lot of situations where one either gains or loses Honor but can't stay neutral. From your responses you seem to think just losing Honor and ignoring the consequences would be easy, ignoring the fact that the consequences of pinging at Honor 3 and pinging at Honor 0.5 are very different situations. Honor 0.5 would result in "there is something very wrong with you get out of my house right the fuck now guards check his kimono for stolen goods" at minimum, and that's lowballing it.
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>>61377140
Say that openly and you open yourself up to blood feuds. You are directly attacking school traditions (which is itself a breach of etiquette), and every single member of those schools is culturally obligated to attack you for it as a matter of honor (funnily enough). Low honor means pragmatic most of the time.
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>>61377150

The correct path would be to expose the dishonorable one's crimes as a delightful, altruistic diversion from breeding the biggest koi fish possible while writing beautiful poetry and giving the best gifts. After all, is the Clan of Doji not the Clan that gave Rokugan its laws and proper mores?

>>61377154

Lion in particular. Just pinging as 3 Honor as a Lion would be enough to bother the other Lion into making your life miserable. They don't need a crime.
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>>61377247
As a lion, Ikoma would probably be okay with you outside courts, but that's solely because you bought them alcohol, plus don't the Ikoma have a school that requires you to have three or close enough honour?
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>>61377247
Wasn't it a Scorpion who helped make the laws of Rokugan though, not a Doji?
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>>61377157

This whole post assumes that anyone cares enough about an honorless dog bushi to defend you, but I'll indulge you since this is clearly a failure of your parents.

>Scorpion

Nobody fucking trusts them. Your elders might be pissed that you got caught.

>Crab

People will just assume you're too retarded for proper etiquette if you're pinging at mid-low. If you're a Crab you're probably safe, ensconced in the raging mass of retarded Crab PCs who make a big show of not caring about proper samurai behavior and crying about how hard the Wall is when challenged on anything and how other samurai can't be mean to you because w-wh-what about m-muh Wall?

>Minor Clans

Most of them don't matter and only the honorable ones are welcome at Winter Court. The dishonorable ones tend to get murdered somehow.

>by a significant number of Daidoji, Ikoma, Shiba, Yoritomo, and Mirumoto

From "significant number" I assume you mean individuals. Why the fuck would they out themselves by siding with you?

> by anyone who dislike baseless rumormongers, by many courtiers who would just looove to be able to take you down for rumormonging because it's literally a gross breach of etiquette.

Any Courtnigger who can make that roll is enough of a Courtnigger to do it properly and frame it as doing one's duty instead of rumormongering. Baseless is also a key word here, because it's not. Your Honor score is legitimately low.
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>>61377288
Yep. He was a judge who decided he was fed up with the corrupt and incompetent circuit judge system, so he worked to establish the magistrate system with solid laws that were not as open to interpretation.
>>
The idea that someone is going to get in trouble for committing the nebulous crime of "pinging a 3 on my honor scouter" is retarded. Most people can't even succeed at the check in question.
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>>61377189

Gossip is dishonorable. Cautioning a friend who's married to the guy deciding military assignments for your Clan that this Anon-kun gives you a bad feeling and that you think he might not be worthy of your friend's husband's trust is just being a good friend, and if exposed, a proper Crane could just say they were doing their duty to their pal, receive an Honor GAIN, and then offer to let Anon-kun duel their pet Kakita.
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>>61377329
They don't really get in trouble, people just don't trust them and try not to be associated with them, if they raise their honour however it's all back to normal, the problem is finding ways to raise it
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>>61377347
>people just don't trust them and try not to be associated with them
Nonsense.
>if they raise their honour however it's all back to normal
Again, it's a nontrivially difficult check to see that shit.
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>>61377209

This. 3 Honor for a Scorpion or Crab is fine. You might not be THE most welcome guest at Winter Court, but you have backing. However, a character at that Honor level actually has to manage their Honor more than a high-Honor character, doing enough honorable things to offset their more underhanded shit.
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>>61377362
You actually haven't read the book and are just being contrarian aren't you? frigging Bayushi courtiers got us lads
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>>61377313
Low honor isn't a crime, and most people at court will be around 4 as the average. Honor is not a prerequisite to roll Lore: Bushido, nor is it a prerequisite to want to take down the Crane who can't stop talking about how 3/4ths of the people in the room come from a school that cares more about results than honor. Literally multiple entire clans average below 5, and they're all at court. Their courtiers are below 5. You spreading rumours about them being untrustworthy is spreading rumors. You don't know why their honor is low. There are a ton of reasons it could be that low, including their duty. You attacking them leaves you open to attack.
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>>61377343
The honor gain won't outclass the 6 point hit for rumormonging. At most, it will be a gain of 1 or 2, and still leave you open to duels and further retribution.
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>>61377410
Higher honour score means more believable lie,
lower honour score means less believable defence
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>>61377374
At 3-5ish, it's very easy to stay neutral, since most gains or losses are small. Someone with honor 10 could lose entire ranks all at once, and someone with honor 0 could gain entire ranks, but the mid-range really have to work to get out of the median.
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>>61377431
Most of the court can't make the roll to verify, and then it's just he-said, she-said.
Except she said all kinds of rude things, and he's demanding that honor be satisfied against the rumormonger. That doesn't look too good for Doji-san.
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>>61377431
Honor doesn't factor into Courtier or Etiquette rolls to gossip or defend against gossip, nor is it an actual requirement to be offended when insulted.
>>
Crane and Scorpion! Hatefucking!
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>>61377502
See
>>61348129
specifically the image
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>>61377222
>Say that openly and you open yourself up to blood feuds.

Why do you just assume this person who could read your Honor is retarded and has no idea how to Courtier?

>You are directly attacking school traditions (which is itself a breach of etiquette), and every single member of those schools is culturally obligated to attack you for it as a matter of honor (funnily enough)

Call having low honor a school tradition and you'll be dueling people from your own school from the insult.

>Low honor means pragmatic most of the time

Wrong. Only Crabtards think this. Doing things the low-honor way is easy, yes, but it bites you in the ass in the end. Going Full Spider isn't pragmatic, and if the Crab bothered to learn which chopsticks to use at the table they might have an easier time getting help at the Wall. By the way, I'm assuming your hypothetical PC here is a Crab, because if you're a Scorpion nobody trusts you already, but if you'd rather argue from some other position feel free to make it plain.
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>>61377273

Lion's Shadow, but they have their own particular rules.
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>>61377288

The Doji take credit for so much it's hard to tell, but they came up with the basis of Rokugani laws and traditions, and then later a Scorpion substantially fixed the court system.
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>>61377464

What kind of weak-ass bullshit do you think Winter Court is where most of the court can't make that roll?

>rude

A good Courtier will effortlessly turn it into a good deed and get applauded for it.

>demanding that honor be satisfied

And this is how you end up dying in a duel against a Kakita Unsheathing Autist.
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>>61377777
I want to disagree, but your quints disallow it
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>>61377713
>Why do you just assume this person who could read your Honor is retarded and has no idea how to Courtier?
Why do you assume someone with a low honor can't? Hiding the source of gossip is a roll.
>Call having low honor a school tradition
Says the person who is insulting entire schools for having low default honor.
>Wrong
Right. Dead zero honor is criminal as fuck. Low honor is pragmatic in any clan. Ikoma Lion's Shadow are pragmatic. Daidoji Harriers are pragmatic. Merchant patrons who take an active hand in their business are pragmatic. All of them are performing their duty, and all of them have honor below 4. A Courtier with low honor is no less capable of rolling etiquette and courtier to take down their rivals. You are the aggressor, and that makes you a target.
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>>61377777
Everyone brings their sword autists to Winter Court, and your sword autist can't be everywhere to attack the vast majority of the court (who are below 5). Duelling for everything is a faux pas, and other lords will simply deny your demands to duel as you clearly aren't honoring the system with your constant and unending duel fishing.
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>>61377743
Soshi Saibankan reformed the existing body of criminal law, and the emperor liked his work so much he told Saibankan to show it to the Emerald Champion so they could work on implementing it across the empire. And the Emerald Champion, a Kakita because it's always a damned Kakita, went and said "this is really good work man but you know what it needs? More duelling!"

And Saibankan sighed went along with the Emperor's wishes for him to work with that asshole. And that's why the legal system works like it does.
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>>61377410
>3/4 of the people in the room come from a school that doesn't care about honor

You'll be lucky if your lord lets you die by your own hand if you make a claim to that effect. When someone says you're dishonorable the non-autist response is NOT "YEAH BUT SO IS EVERYONE ELSE AT COURT". Also, not everyone there with low honor is going to go "low honor is a faction, we must defend him", in fact, none will. Bastards will not stand by other bastards. The dishonorable Courtiers, in particular, don't want to be connected with this guy who couldn't hide his boner for rudeness or shitfuckery. Also, 3/4 is a ridiculous number, even the Mantis care about honor for the most part.

>>61377479

No, but it would prove detrimental if other Courtiers there start rolling at you, and if the majority of them end up agreeing you're kind of a bastard.
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>>61377777
What kind of weak ass Winter Court are you at where a non-bayushi can just insult the entire court for having middle-low honor and get away with it?
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>>61377855
>When someone says you're dishonorable the non-autist response is NOT "YEAH BUT SO IS EVERYONE ELSE AT COURT"
Yeah, the response is, "yeah, that's nice, duel now." And then all the other people you insulted separately do the same thing. Your sword autist will be booked up for the next decade. And separately from the people you insulted, your enemies who might not have low honor will take the opportunity to call you a rumormonger.
I'd you look on the honor chart, you might notice that there are no exceptions when your target has lower honor than you, and making bold claims about people with no evidence opens you up to all kinds of nasty shit. Discretion is the better part of being even the most honorable courtier.
4.5 is literally the average, and a lot are below that.
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>>61377837
Tell that to literally half the Doji generals who continually screwed over everyone else using duels and honour abuse
>>
As somebody who actually playtested 5e (and whose calls for non bullshit dice went unheeded), high honor gives you paragon advantages for fucking free, low honor staples “failure of Bushido:X” to your character sheet until you get your honor back up. The less honor you have, the more failures get stapled on, and vice versa. This is perhaps the only facet of 5e I like. I agree with another poster that strife should go with opportunity instead of success, it makes it so you keep no dice if you know you won’t succeed (because you always know TN). Same shit with katanas breaking on heavy armor or anyone striking as earth. Hell, a Togashi monk with earth 4 can break the representation of your honor on his bare skin. It turns out honor is maybe exactly as strong as steel, less going by by the LCG.

Playtested a sword autist btw, dueling is a fucking mess and nothing seems to be done about it. Strife is only okay, I was passionate about tea so I rarely broke face. If I did, I challenged someone to a duel and won.
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>>61377808
>Why do you assume someone with a low honor can't? Hiding the source of gossip is a roll.

You specified Bushi earlier. If you're a dishonorable Courtier then why didn't you make an effort to hide it? Being untrustable neuters you as a Courtier unless you're going deep into the Honor Loss skills.

>Says the person who is insulting entire schools for having low default honor.

That is your starting honor as a fresh-outta-gempukku kid. Kids, if you haven't noticed, are assholes. Most adults are held to a higher standard. It's also ridiculously metagamey and, I repeat, probably a sign of autism that you think if you get caught out as a below-average-honor person that all the other dishonorable people will take it as an insult. If I call you a pedophile, would Kevin Spacey leap to your defense? No, a fellow asshole is more likely to denounce you too to maintain their own image. Of course, you're also assuming that this is immediate gossip, instead of just a spreading stain of bias against you in all things by everyone who's aware of your low Honor. The one exception is the Crab.

>Dear, do you want to invite Anon-kun to the wedding?
>If it's alright with you, I'd rather not. He's always given me a bad feeling, like he never quite grew up out of that impulsive manchild stage.
>You too? Mother was just saying that to me the other day. I guess nobody really likes Anon-kun, huh?

This is, of course, all assuming that you've abandoned your actual first point that it was totally fine to just ignore Honor because it's not relevant mechanically enough for you. I'm assuming you've chosen not to die on that hill. Am I wrong? If not, is it fair to assume that your PC has just been doing what he pleases, ignoring Honor completely and acting like a murderhobo? Because if so we're back into a Bayushi finding out that you burned down an orphanage and blackmailing you with it.
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>>61377881

What kind of weak-ass Winter Court has Courtiers who've made having low Honor a part of their identity apart from the ones who will never admit it and would happily elevate themselves by going "Well ~I~ would never be so rude..."

Glad you abandoned the "honor doesn't matter at all" thing and are up to "mid-low Honor is fine so long as I'm a good little bushi and don't do anything bad enough to knock me below 3", it's the smartest thing you've done today.
>>
Has anyone ever actually gotten in trouble for having low honor but no proof to link it to? Like, in the lore?
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>>61378101
>proof
Nigga this is Rokugan.
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>>61378020
You're attributing someone else's arguments to me. I never said Bushi, I said everyone.
And your little example shows that both involved characters are incredibly inept courtiers. Snubbing people based on feelings is a terrible move. Attacking people based on feelings is a terrible idea.
Honor reading is not suitable for everyday use, because low honor doesn't mean low influence or even being a bad or unfriendly person. Fucking Matsu have honor through the roof, and they're all assholes who would kill you where you stand for being a pussy if they could justify it.
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>>61378020
Your examples have all been that someone is constantly honor scanning everyone and then spreading rumors about them. That means everyone, who can all get offended at it.
And post-gempukku is adult, and where most NPCs will probably still be unless they've got special backstory stuff.
If you called everyone a pedophile, everyone would separately fight you for it, and some people would dogpile on to get ahead in other ways. The high honor club is not a faction either.
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>>61377943
>duel now

Alright, you die, reroll. GGEZ.

>insulted separately

Who? Do you really think everyone else there getting away with having low Honor is going to identify with you and be offended on your behalf?

>rumormonger

Easiest thing in the world to get around, as I've said repeatedly. Especially if other people who've rolled on you can see you're a dickbag.

>honor chart

You might notice those are all examples, and you might want to refer to earlier posts stating that making bold claims would be stupid and a Courtier should deal with it subtly, several scenarios of which I've already presented.

>4.5 is literally the average

And you're at 3. One factor that matters quite a lot is whether that's normal for your school or not. As a Crab or Mantis, the reaction might be more "...Ugh, how typically uncivilized, let's just not stand too close to him." As a member of a school that normally looks more professional and civilized, the reaction will be more extreme.
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>>61378101
Nope. Anyone with literally zero honor *has* to have done something incredibly unethical to get there, but 1 or 2 honor could just be not giving a shit(like the Kuni)
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>>61377837

So you're saying the other lords would deny your request as the insulted party to duel?
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>>61378203
No, your requests as you fish for a reason to duel for no reason other than a feeling. Or was that someone else who said that the Doji try to get people killed for having low honor?
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>>61378182
>And you're at 3. One factor that matters quite a lot is whether that's normal for your school or not.
You are making shit up. Raw low honor has never been enough to ostracize anyone in the setting. You only get in trouble for actually getting caught doing something dishonorable.
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>>61378182
>Alright, you die, reroll. GGEZ.
Killing someone in a duel that isn't to the death is actually a really easy way to commit seppukku or at least be so ostracized that your career is over. And your Kakita can't win them all, everyone brings their best to Winter Court.
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>>61378126

This is actually a good point.

>>61378202

What's the starting honor on a Kuni? This whole conversation really needs specifics, because context matters. You could be anywhere from disliked but permitted to do your thing, to having your life ruined.
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>>61378224

So in this scenario you are someone who has lost Honor beyond their school's starting point? Okay, we'll work from there.

>Raw low honor has never been enough to ostracize anyone in the setting.

It ostracized an entire Clan.

> You only get in trouble for actually getting caught doing something dishonorable.

People won't trust you if you're a sketchy fucker even if nobody's seen you rob a liquor store yet.
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>>61378253
>What's the starting honor on a Kuni?
Kuni shugenja in 4e start with 2.5
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>>61378286

If they've lost Honor, then that's a misdeed a Bayushi Courtier or Dragon Sherlock Wannabe could likely ferret out. I'm just saying.
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>>61378253
2.5, and that's having done nothing but their duty. Honor doesn't go down just because of crimes and misdemeanors. Anything unsavory can chip it. Failing your duty will chip it more. That is why the crab and scorpion care more about duty and loyalty than honor. Their honor is stained for the good of their clan and empire and they know it.
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>>61378301
That's the price you pay when you want to know your enemy so well that you start carving them up
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>>61378301

Yes, because they work very unsettling magic, have scary facepaint, and have manners possibly worse than the Hida. As said above, context matters, what's normal for a Hida is not normal for a Shiba.
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>>61378309
>done nothing but their duty

Right, just like when they helped Kisada lead a Shadowlands invasion of Rokugan with Kisada's own son crucified as a battle standard.
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>>61378008
If the beginner game is anything to go by, they completely ditched the "katana (and other razor-edged weapons) break if they deal zero damage" thing. Razor-edged now inflicts Bleeding if you land a critical strike with it, which turns strife results into more damage. I didn't get to see any of dueling in the playtest, though. What was it like? In the current version, it's a contested Melee roll, where the winner deals some combinations of strife and critical strikes dependent on how far the duel goes. It seems way more straightforward, but I'm ambivalent on it being rolled into Martial Arts (Melee). On one hand, it makes duelist characters actually useful in a real fight, but on the other, it makes anyone who can fight equally good at dueling.
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>>61378286
Which clan, the Scorpion? They are welcome literally everywhere and make political and personal connections with literally everyone. You couldn't find a court in the empire that actually ostracizes them, because refusing to host someone based on feelings and rumors is publicly dishonorable. Even if your score doesn't go down, everyone will think you're an asshole for doing it or an idiot for being so blatant.
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>>61378309

All MUH THIN RED LINE wank aside if you have done unsavory things and someone else can tell you have done unsavory things they will treat you as an unsavory person. That's the way it works.
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>>61378338
Psst, Kuni Yori had honor 0. Generic Kuni with honor 2.5 never did that.
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>>61378362
And if they do so publicly based on feelings, they look like a buffoon with a chip on their shoulder, and probably lose honor for a breach of etiquette.
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>>61378325
>When the Isawa Shugenja's honor pings as unusually low.
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>>61378392

Why would they? You can't prove you were overlooked for that promotion because they're Curphobic.
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>>61378360

The Scorpion who everyone says they don't trust? The Clan whose motto is "we're the designated villains, banzai!"?
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>>61378360
>>61378392


>get told over and over how such a disdain for your unusually low Honor would be expressed subtly unless you were very, very dishonorable
>insist it would be blatant because you know I'm right and otherwise you'd get fucked hard for playing an edgelord.
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>>61378325
Their magic and studies were ordered and sanctioned by Hantei and Hida themselves, their face paint is an honorable tradition that is no worse than the Scorpion masks or Crane hair bleach, but yes, they are often rude.
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>>61378441
I think scorpions are an "keep your enemies closer" kinda thing. Nobody really wants the scorpions around, but it's better that they're where you can see them you know?
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>>61378458

And it has social ramifications. It's hard to get invited to a tea party by the popular girls when you're a creepy Kuni-chan, and you might have to marry a fatty.
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>>61378441
And nobody ostracizes them. They're welcome everywhere, invited to all major events, and regularly make deals.
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>>61378477
So close you intermarry, form political and military alliances as necessary, engage in trade...
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>>61378454
Hiding the source of rumors is a skill roll. Literally only the Bayushi can do it with impunity.
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>>61378478
Which has nothing to do with their honor and everything to do with their actions and conversation starters. Their honor is less important than the fact that they want to poke you with Jade and insult your security by insisting it isn't up to snuff and needs more wards and stonework.
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>>61378478
>tfw no awkward, socially-inept, chubby Kuni wife.
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>>61378477
For most of imperial history, they were the Emperor's favoured. No one ostracised them because they had solid backing and were known for their brutal revenge schemes politically and socially, not being a worthy adversary militarily, and not having much with the effort of taking if you did attack them.
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>>61378681

And keep them watched at all times.
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>>61378811
I would require that to avoid bumping into the Crane schtick. They had strong imperial favour.
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>>61378801
You could probably find one less PTSD prone in any other clan.
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>>61378690

And that's not what's being done here. Do learn to read.
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>>61378860

But which Clan has the best ones?
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>>61378902
Crane clan historically has the most beautiful, Lion clan's Matsu however are all Tomboy badass women, and Mantis clan's Moshi family is a bunch of matriarchal Sun worshipper Shugenja who shoot lightning and fireballs lie nobodie's business
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>>61378886
Talking shit based on your feelings is making rumors. You have no proof of any misdeeds or even rude actions, just a basic feeling. That is not a valid reason to start making enemies.
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>>61378902
Still Crab. Hida women who aren't wall Bushi are designed to be perfect waifus to help their PTSD riddled husbands, run a strong household for them to come home to, and raise good kids for the next generation.
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>>61378944
Scorpion are also a pretty strong option, since they also tend towards that old dangerous beauty, and take marriage super super seriously as an extension of their Loyalty obsession.

Tonbo categorically will not marry except for love, so if you've got one to marry you at all she'll be head over heels for you, and they're also super good hosts and home managers.
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>>61379041
basically low Honour means the individual in question becomes a kind of social pariah, people actively avoiding them because of the feelings of shadiness
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>>61378944

I want a chubby, antisocial neet who doesn't get invited to tea parties.
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>>61379085
Except it doesn't, because not everyone has enough ranks in Lore:Bushido to make the TN 30 roll consistently, and most people will not snub entire clans worth of potential allies and trade partners based on a feeling. Doing so is a massive waste of potential and often a literal breach of etiquette that will result in high honor characters losing their high honor.
The more you have, the more you will lose. A Bayushi can talk shit for days and never lose even a little bit of their low honor. Doji Perfectu will lose half a rank for saying something rude behind someone's back.
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>>61379041

No, it's talking shit. This isn't a gender studies class where everyone cares deeply that you're offended by something. It's Court, you're expected to put on your big boy pants and handle yourself. Christ I feel sorry for whatever Clan you main.
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>>61379162
>My PC is an entire clan

Literally autistic behavior.
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>>61379171
Yeah, you're expected to put on your big boy pants. That means not starting shit based on your feefees. Everyone is looking for an excuse, and you are feeding them by talking shit.
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>>61379151
Try an Asako Monk then, maybe someone from the Kaeru family (Frogs are rich and could make that environment for that kind of development easily) perhaps a Dragon clan women, maybe Tamori (Or Agasha if pre-phoenix) neet shugenja women?
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>>61379181
This entire conversation was started with someone claiming that All low honor characters get honor scanned all the time and then acted against. That's a hell of a lot of people you're deliberately attacking based on your feelings.
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>>61379162

The people who can make that roll consistently are both present at Court and influential enough to shape policy there. You are not also an entire Clan, you're one individual who's already committed to being dishonorable even by your own school's standards. Doji Perfectu might lose ranks if she just calls you an ass during the display of your painting, but if she gently encourages her friends and allies not to trust you, that is absolutely honorable behavior on her part, and she'll probably even gain honor for protecting her friends. As for a Bayushi talking shit? If they do it openly they...well, people would probably just assume it's part of some complicated plot that will entangle them if they respond, so they'll just ignore it or treat you like a jester.
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>>61379210
We're not saying that the person who found out your honour is starting shit, merely that they are choosing to either A) Monitor you because something seems off and maybe they could use that to their advantage, or B) Choose to avoid you and keeping their feelings to themselves until someone else notices your low honour too and brings it up with them
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>>61379199

It's not starting shit to say "I wouldn't let yourself be alone with this individual" to the other girls at Court. Stop projecting your own insecurities on this situation. If you're a creep people will treat you like a creep.
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>>61378349
Considering I hated dueling in 4th because it was air ring or bust in a game where air ring was already good, I liked it more. You utilized more than one ring, that was actually imperative because if you get predicted you got three strife and forced out of your stance. There’s still the assessment roll, but it gives you information based on what ring you use to assess. Initiative is based on FOCUS ((air+fire)x2) plus bonus successes. You can then bid strife to increase initiative further, hyping yourself up for one big first strike or keep calm if you expect a longer duel. Then you pick an action, usually strike but I used to assess with air to determine their high ring, then predict the use of that ring. If they bid a ton of strife for that first strike, they’d get three more and break face. In a duel, breaking face meant I got a swing at double deadliness, plus the Kakita school, plus opportunity spend on raising deadlines. I had to be careful not to do the same as I struck, or they’d get the same chance.

And that’s how Kakita Karasu chopped off everyone’s arms, or at least fucked up their face. He got a fucked up face after a duel with a Mirumoto and he’s been bitter ever since. Had the vicious disadvantage, two other players were softhearted. I was a “problem”, but guess whose skits those two hid behind when there was trouble?
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>>61379254
That is literally starting shit. You are actively talking badly about someone. The person you said that to will continue the line of thought. You lose honor and if it ever gets back to them, they can rub your face in it if they're even a little bit court savvy.
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>>61379199

Starting shit based on your feelings is 3/4 of Rokugani lore.

>>61379216

This entire conversation was started with someone claiming Honor was something that could be ignored and discarded because it wasn't mechanically significant enough to them, and then sperged out when social consequences were explained to them.
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>>61379232
Open or not doesn't matter. Honor is internal and always watching. Saying it directly just means the consequences hit right away.
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>>61379216

Incorrect. Rokugani society acts against people with low Honor who don't bother to hide it. With the Scorpion it's just common enough that people roll their eyes and grumble about the unfortunate necessity of dealing with them, and even then they won't feel personally offended at one individual being spoken poorly of at Court.
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>>61379304

Yes, which is why the Doji would in this case gain Honor as she's protecting her friends through warning them of danger. You don't lose honor for warning people on the road that there are bandits ahead when there are, in fact, bandits ahead. Whether or not the bandit's feelings are hurt by being called bandits is irrelevant. You also do not lose Honor every time you speak ill of someone, and this disingenuousness of yours is getting to the point where I am 100% convinced you have actual, medical autism.
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>>61379270

Talking badly about someone isn't dishonorable. Consider the Akodo, one of the most honorable families in Rokugan, whose school literally scales with their Honor. They call the Scorpion weasels, the Crane faggots, and the Unicorn filthy purple barbarians on the regular and don't lose anything for it
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>>61379270

If you're a creep and I call you a creep and the other Courtiers spread the fact that you're a creep because they agree, I don't lose honor. If I make up a story of you having an affair with the local daimyo's hunchbacked son and spread it around, I lose honor. Rokugani society is particular on these points. If it got back to you that I called you a creep, you could demand satisfaction and if I refused I would then lose Honor.
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>>61379370
Yeah, and they cite known activity when they do it. They don't just base it on feefees like a fucking wimp. That's the actual distinction. Dishonorable action matters. Having a low ambient honor does not, unless it's abysmally low. Someone with perceived honor doesn't get away with shit just because they ping as an 8 on the honor-o-meter, and someone with honor 2 doesn't get in trouble just because they ping a 2 on the meter. I don't even think the results are that specific.
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>>61379345
Gain .2, lose .6
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ITT: No one understands how honor ranks work.
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Honor is descriptive, not prescriptive, and does not actually dictate your actions unless you're going out of your way to maintain your score.
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Low honor doesn't mean creepy, and high honor doesn't mean nice. Honor is not morality (although immoral actions are among the things that are dishonorable). Your honor score is literally a secret behind a TN 30 check that uses a skill that no school actually has by default, and is easily obsfucated by a cheap advantage.
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>>61379482

I get that you're mad that you can't stand there radiating shitty attitude and disrespect for tradition and think that other people have to take it because you hate your dad for disciplining you, but if you ping as a suspicious shitbag people are gonna treat you as a suspicious shitbag, and if they don't have evidence then they might just go looking for proof that you're a suspicious shitbag. If you have Honor 2, you've done dishonorable things before and will again. As for someone with Honor 8, people are more likely to trust them and give them a pass in general. For instance, let's say you're a recent widower. If you ping as low Honor, someone might look into the possibility that you killed your wife to pursue a woman in another Clan. If you ping as high Honor, they would console you on your loss and talk about how hard this must be on you.
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>>61379530
Man, if there was an attempt to correct everything here, the thread would be falling to page 11 already.
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>>61379519
>lose 0.6

Nope. The Doji in this case is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Honor does not compel you to go "this dirtbag isn't a dirtbag".
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>>61379666
Passive low honor is not "a suspicious shitbag". It's literally a hidden value, and is not directly connected to how you act. Someone with honor 10 can be a conniving asshole, and someone with honor 2 can be a great, altruistic person who just doesn't care about proper behavior.
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>>61379530

Really? Then enlighten us, smartass.
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>>61379684
"I feel like this person is a dirtbag, so I'm going to shit talk them unprovoked and with no evidence" is rumormonging, which is a breach of etiquette.
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>>61379703
>hidden value
>can be rolled to detect

Nope.

>and is not directly connected to how you act

And nope.

>Someone with honor 10 can be a conniving asshole, and someone with honor 2 can be a great, altruistic person who just doesn't care about proper behavior.

Also nope. Sorry, your "original" "pragmatic in an honorable land" character gets shafted, but you chose it.
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>>61379721

No, it's telling the truth among your friends, which is entirely polite. It's not rumormongering, which is well defined in setting.
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>>61379731
>can be rolled at a high tn using an obscure skill and can literally be falsified easily
>not hidden
Is nothing hidden because the Investigation skill exists?
Honor score does not dictate behavior. It shifts based on behavior and circumstances. It is descriptive.
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>>61379721

The Lion do it all the time and have probably the highest average Honor in all of Rokugan.
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>>61379754
"This guy is a dirtbag" is not the truth when you don't have even the slightest shred of evidence other than a gut feeling. If you could point to some actual event or action, then it wouldn't be a baseless rumor.
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>>61379773
>30
>high TN

smug anime face.

>Honor score does not dictate behavior. It shifts based on behavior and circumstances. It is descriptive.

If you're a cunt by nature you'll keep being a cunt. Or you were a cunt in the past. Otherwise why is your Honor so low?
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>>61379782
Doing it directly to someone's face isn't starting rumors, it's a confrontation. The Lion do not start rumors behind people's back.
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>>61379801
Rokugan doesn't do evidence. They do testimony. Your word they're a shitbag is enough to office you believe they're a shitbag and will stake the reputation of your word behind that claim.
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>>61379801

Please, go outside and meet actual people. Have some methhead approach you, ignore your gut instinct, and go make friends. Go do that. When you know someone isn't right you don't ignore it.
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>>61379829
>to office
Evidence
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>>61379813
Literally getting dirt on yourself can lower honor. Having to eat something meaty to not starve to death can lower honor. Having to do menial labor can lower honor, being tricked the wrong way will lower honor, fuck, for anyone who is idealistic, tiny little mistakes will dump honor.
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>>61379841
he has a point dude, rokugan really doesn't do evidence
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>>61379841
>Evidence
Not how L5R works.
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>>61379848
Unless you're a Kitsuki, who are considered very strange and at worst radical because of their use of it
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>>61379829
Rumors aren't a court of law. Testimony is for when a crime happens, not when you have a feeling.
And lying is dishonorable and violates a major tenet of Bushido. Possibly two if you aren't convincing.
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>>61379847
>this fucking guy

I didn't think even the Scorpion fanbase was so pathetic and desperate to believe these things.
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>>61371388
Literally the only person in this thread that actually understands how honor works.
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>>61379830
A TN 30 check using an obscure skill is not a basic gut feeling, and again, your honor doesn't say shit about your morality, personality, or how you present yourself to others. The sterotypical Matsu is a complete asshole with high honor.
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>>61379875
Read the honor table.
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>>61379875
>having to eat something meaty will lower honor
true, it would be a breach of etiquette, probably minor, losers honor or people who have at least 3
>menial labor lowers honor
kind of does, it would also be considered a breach of etiquette i believe, but it's iffy
>being tricked the wrong way
very true, being duped into doing something dumb and/or illegal is very much an honor loss
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>>61379931
*loses honor for people who have at least 3, my bad
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>>61379848
>>61379860
Quite literally me correcting myself, and "your word" is definitely valid "evidence". At least until someone of nearly equal status challenges it, or someone of greater status dismisses it.
Or anyone brings basic evidence that contradicts your innocence - if someone is murdered and your sword is found in their back, clearly you did it.
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>>61380015
Your word is that you had a bad feeling. And then started a rumor based on it about the honor of someone else. Your testimony about you feeling a thing is unquestioned, but your rumor related activities are still an honor hit and you have made no friends.
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>>61380015
or maybe someone took your sword and used it to make it seem you are the culprit. fair enough, rokugan does do some evidence, but it's pretty much 80% testimony 20% evidence
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>>61379869
Rokugan abides by the same principles, in and out of court. You aren't lying, unless you're really bad at wording.
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>>61380068
>or maybe someone took your sword and used it to make it seem you are the culprit.
It's a legit and official example that your sword = you did it. You can counter it, possibly, but that's separate from the accusation the presence your bloody sword makes.
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>>61380080
Or if there's a ton of evidence and testimony to the contrary. You can't just stab someone in open court and say "didn't do it!", unless you are literally the actual Emperor himself.
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>>61380156
If you're the highest status person present, and everyone is subordinate and loyal to you, then you theoretically can force everyone's testimony to your tune.
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>>61379931
The meat thing and the menial labour thing are both things done by minor clans, namely the Hare (Due to there being a food shortage in their lands what with them almost constantly under attack) and the Sparrow clan (Who need to work with their farmers to make sure they have enough food) respectively, though of course these are merely examples of when it would be acceptable to break code and not loose honour, their is however, as you say, no way of not loosing honour by being tricked the wrong way, especially when it leads to a physical confrontation or someone being hurt or used
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>>61380732
Mountain Tuna.
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>>61380781
I feel like this is a meme but I still don't understand, please enlighten me?
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>>61380803
The mountainous terrain of the Dragon makes traditional agriculture and fishing extremely difficult, so they often supplement their diet with what they tell people is "mountain tuna," which is actually goat meat.
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>>61380816
Thank you for your wisdom Togashi-sama
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>>61380858
IIRC pretty much every Clan who isn't Crane, Phoenix, or Mantis eats some form of meat and poultry under certain circumstances and just politely ignores the fact.




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