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https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Lovedagger

Previous Lovedagger thread went really well before dying. Posting this in hope that someone interested is still lurking about.

Goals for the thread:

1. Decide on a mechanical framework for a no shit Lovedagger RPG.
2. Potentially: start recreating the setting bit by bit around the copyrights, Zweihander style, so it might become potentially publishable.
3. Get shit done.
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>>61346296
Considering the general genre and target audience I would imagine a Lovedagger RPG would be more like one of those collaborative storytelling games like A Quiet Year or something than a standard rpg.
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>>61346318
I was thinking either something along the lines of PbtA or a stripped down version of World of Darkness. Regardless, we can always start with the setting. Let’s think about this in an organized fashion: what does the setting need? What parts of it are uniquely Warhammer? And then how do we change them?
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>>61346318
Do we have any actual statistics on what girls play?
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>>61346912
Nobody on /tg/ knows anything like that.
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>>61346912
Usually the same shit guys play, Blue Rose wad an RPG aimed at girls if it helps
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>>61346912
>>61347855
>>61348679
It doesn’t matter nearly as much as the setting anyway.

Since nobody seems keen on starting this, I’ll throw in some direction: obviously we’re focusing on an Empire of some sort, and it’s in a fantasy world. What’s the Empire called, what’s its religion, and what culture/time period is if based on?
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>>61348831
Oh, I dunno. Maybe

>With less of an aesthetic emphasis on war and death and more on courtly intrigue and romance, the gritty-dirtiness of medieval Germany gives place to the grandeur and extravagance of Imperial Austria. The Empire is an anachronism anyway - there's no reason its architecture and fashions shouldn't be based on 18th or even 19th century central Europe, even if its military technology remains unchanged (or even without it. The effectiveness of weapons on the tabletop has always been pretty arbitrary, and steam tanks don't make sense anyway. They might make even more sense in a society that might've feasibly invented the hot air balloon (can you say airships? Because I think airships fit in).
>That isn't to say that in Lovedagger Fantasy the Empire doesn't have its share of blood and gunpowder soaked battlefields, rat-infested sewers or filthy back alleys, it's just that the drama focuses on the fabulous palaces. If anyone does fighting "on-camera", it's less likely to be in ranks of muskets and more likely to be a handsome, swashbuckling prince swinging off the chandelier with a rapier in hand and a belt of (ornate) pistols.
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>>61348987
>The Empire was founded by a woman known as Sigrun Liebendolch. Sigrun was the beautiful barbarian maiden wedded as a young teen to one of the region's warlords. He was a brave, honorable man, and she truly loved him, but she also knew that his obsession with honor and glory made him too violent. Like the other warlords who ruled humanity back then, he couldn't make allies or unite tribes because everyone was always busy going to Valhalla. The Lovedagger was a wedding gift from the elves, a beautiful little blade that promised to fulfill one's heart's desires, but at the cost of that which is most dear to them. Understanding the meaning of this, Sigrun killed her beloved husband and, with her own wisdom and compassion, managed to unite the warring tribes into one powerful empire, which she ruled for a time before sorrow overcame her and she killed herself using the very same Lovedagger.
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>>61348998
>>61348987
Yeah, but we want to keep it different enough from WH that GW won’t sue.
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>>61349021
WH is enough of a mish-mash already. It's impossible to prove plagiarism in this case as long as you don't repeat non-generic names. And don't steal orks, I suppose.
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>>61349056
Or aelves, duerdin, orruks, troggoths or what have you.
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>>61349081
Thank god no one's going to touch those with a 10 foot lance. Hopefully.
And anyway, Empire as a slightly more advanced empire closer to AHE than HRE is quite a big difference already. It might also pay to advance the rest of the setting, but that would lose Bretonnian kniggits.

Also. Have a random map of Europe from around 1400 as inspiration material
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>>61349124
>It might also pay to advance the rest of the setting
Some thoughts. I have serious doubts about pretty much all of it (primarily because I don't seem to be on the whole romance wave right now) but a brainstorm is a brainstorm.

Instead of WHF's "late medieval but not really", LDF could be "18th and 19th centuries but not really" with copious dips into both earlier and later time periods.
Empire is pretty much >>61348987 and >>61348998. It's grand, but fake and disjointed. It's very impressive technologically and militarily, but could be so much more. Nobles smile when they meet but there's poison on their tongues and blades.

Bretonnia (Bretagne?) is an old kingdom with old ways, but undergoing an upheaval. It's knights and dames and quests (and knights are truly devoted to their ideals), but it's also musicians and writers and philosophers coming into light. Nobles just until recently were all but completely separated from their lessers, but they're hard to ignore now as new ideas become ever more influential. In places there recently were revolts started by an educated word and ended in blood and guillotinery.
It's a clash of fairy tale and enlightenment of masses.

not-Britain (Albion?), not-Portigal and not-Spain would be primary marine powers. Not sure how to distinguish them. Maybe have Albion as a kingdom that has relatively recently eschewed influence of Bretagne and gone into expansion and colonisation. Also I imagine in a world of magic and fishmen the Age of Piracy probably never ended.

To the east there's not-Poland and not-Russia. The latter would be a rising bear that until recently was a mess but is trying to get its shit together with arguable success. The reason for the mess would be its (now long dead) Tsar killing his sons and dying heirless, after which both heirs came back, one as a foregn-backed fake and another as an undead, which plunged the place into a civil war that was eventually won by a faction that wanted neither claimant.
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I never did finish my Lovedagger 40k story.

was gonna be about a rogue trader from 40k being shunted into Lovedagger and managing to cludge up a dramatic tragic plotline by being from the wrong genre.
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>>61349810
tech should probably be around early coal powered vehicles. No aircraft besides maybe the odd observation balloon. Firearms would likely be at their most advanced with breechloaders but muzzle loading muskets with bayonets are common. Less advanced (tactically) using plug bayonets, more advanced ones using socket bayonets.

Pike and shot tactics, maybe the odd coaltank. Have Duerdin (dwarves) fighting a long term vicious conflict with conflict with things like Bloodcaps, basically goblins but we can dig up names like 'Powrie' for them. In general a loose coalition of greenskin style monsters. They're in conflict over various resources and the dubious claims Duerdin have to various cavernous empires.

The Duerdin make use of their latest innovation- the coal powered train, to keep their forces on the midnight cavern border supplied. The Empire is involved in this because if the greenskins (we need a name for them that's more folklorey) claim their lands they'll have a way into various imperial territories via fortified underground trading tunnels.

Maybe have something in the backstory about some kind of crusades analog bringing back science and technology and magic from the middleeast?
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>>61349810
Southeast would be not-Ottomans (Utmani?), which is less arabian nights and more a rival empire with amazing elite Janissary warriors, that are just about equivalent to Bretagnese knights in both power and nobility of character, but very much a part of a rival civilisation and mindset.

Biggest problem with all of this is that I'm nat at all sure now to fit elves and dwaves into this. While high elves are not a problem (the're literally Altantis that never sunk), as they're both powerful and not interested in expansion. Dwarves could be located in Carpathians, Alps and Pyrenees. Wild elves... no idea
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>>61349985
>Duerdin
Y? Just fucking why?
"Dwarves" is a generic term and doesn't sound like shit.

Neither do goblins really need to be renamed
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>>61349810
>[Bretonnia stuff]

Meanwhile on the wiki:
>Bretonnia, meanwhile, to balance out on the Empire becoming more outwardly elegant and "sophisticated" (you know, the nobles all wear beautiful masks while they stab each other in the back, and they use poisoned knives instead of swords), goes full hard Mists of Avalon/Arthurian Paganism. The Lady of the Lake and her Damsels become even more central to the drama (if not necessarily the culture), and the land takes on a less "shit-covered middle ages" and more "French Fairy Tale" feeling. The knights are actually handsome and chivalrous, but tend to fall prey to their own passions (Pendragon style) and get themselves killed off on fits of romantic madness. The peasants are still probably generally fucked up, but aren't all to the last one a bunch of illiterate, hopeless, inbred mutants. Hope and perseverance against impossible odds (especially socially) are key elements of the genre. In Lovedagger, it's hard but not impossible for a peasant who is brave and true and virtuous to achieve great things, and possibility earn a knighthood. It's also not impossible for a knight to remove "his" helmet and reveal they were a woman the whole time, of course. A Joan D'Arc equivalent figure is an absolute must. In terms of religion, maybe go as far with the pagan elements as to make the Lady of the Lake a tripartite goddess

Not that there's that much of a disparity. I think both ideas could be merged
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>>61350020
pretentious psuedo-folk names are popular in bodice rippers
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>>61349124
What if the bretonnians became high medieval instead of dark ages?

Although that would lose you the whole kitschy “Arthur the pagan warlord”, Mists of Avalon shtick that’s so popular with feminist fantasy.
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>>61350137
Use Zwerg and Kobold then
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>>61350154
works for me, and kobolds have no real set body type anyway so that works for an empire of non-human underground dwellers
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>>61350149
I think it's possible to have your cock and eat it too in this case.

See >>61350041 and >>61349810.
They have a pagan female-led religion. Their knights are full Pendragon. Their dames are essentially the ones running the place while their husbands and lovers are questing about.
At the same time, their middle and lower class gets educated and cultured which changes the place from bottom up
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>>61346296
Isn't this just Amber Diceless or some similar rules-light system
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>>61350216
Isn't Amber a giant fucking mess with no real guidelines?
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>>61349877
That would be fucking amazing. Holy shit. You are now honor bound to finish it and publish it here, you magnificent nigger. The world is counting on you.
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Single biggest potential offender in the plagiarism department is Chaos. Not Chaos itself or the fact it has gods (that shit is stolen from Moorcock) but that it has four (or five) gods with rather specific personalities and that Chaos wastes occupy most of the territory that is Russia in our world.
Maybe Wastes could be all over the place, kinda like Zones in Roadside Picnic?

Also, reminder on the wiki stuff:
>Dark Powers are the analogue to Chaos Gods. They are:
>Tzeentch is no longer "The Lord of Change". Sure, he retains all of his old aspects (change, magic, all those things), but his aspect is that of the Lord of Treachery, and his focus is on lies, illusion and deception.
>Slaanesh goes from the Lord of Excess into a more broadly defined "Lord of Desire". He's the guy behind the physical, loveless relationship that you know is terrible for you and your heart and brain tell you to stop, but your body can't help but want.
>Nurgle's (aside from his diseases becoming less disfiguring and more of a Victorian "cough blood, be pale") aspect as the Lord of Entropy turns him, in the Lovedagger setting, into the Lord of Despair. As the ruler of emotional stagnation, he governs dark romances whose passion has died out, and both parties know it, but neither has the courage to kill so they all linger in unhappiness.
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>>61350229
Probably. I've never played it.
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>>61350313

>Khorne goes from the Lord of Bloodshed into the Lord of Fury. Fury is visceral, but it's also more broadly defined. It's possible to be furious on the battlefield, but also in personal life. Also in society. A politician, a lover or a scientist can be ruled by Fury. Champions of Khorne are probably less "steroid munching lump of steel and muscle", and more like those creepy anime bad guys with the long bishie hair who lick blood off their swords and jizz their pants at the thought of meeting a "worthy enemy", because battle to them is a release.
>In Lovedagger Malal goes from lost intellectual property to a horror that makes Orks quiver and Tyranids recoil when they chance a wiff of It's power. For Malal is not a god of emotion. Deception, Desire, Fury, even Despair are all emotions, but Malal is the Antithesis of that. Malal in Lovedagger is the God of Emptiness, of the emotional death of a man while his heart still beats. Malal is the only god who create cults that twist with emotions as if they where toys not with the goal of spreading influence but to destroy and beat down the emotions of every body, for when the warp is calm, silent, dead and not perturbed by feelings of the living is when Malal is at It's strongest.

Names need changing, maybe into demons from Keys of Solomon.


That reminds me. A new religion led by a prophet that is a mashup of John Dee and Aleister Crowley would be a nice addition to Albion
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>>61350301
well I mean I got a bit of it if you want to read it but its like two or three pages long maybe. I'm not sure I pulled off shifting between purple prose and something more straightforward to try and help differentiate the viewpoints between the two protagonists.
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>>61350369
Post it!
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>>61346497
I like the idea of a stripped down or modified WoD.
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>>61350313
deadzones created by sacrifice or rituals. We can't have warp stone but we can have have 'taint' and instead of mutants we can have 'taintspawn'

>>61350377
https://pastebin.com/7GyzfZjT
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>>61350431
Chaos Gods -> Dark Powers
Chaos Wastes -> Twisted/Tainted/Blackened Realms/Zones. Probably used in any combination and interchangeably, even if the properties of the zones are actually different. The latter bit could also be a nice explanation for the origins of all manner of nasties.

Also, why "instead of mutants"? It's not like GW owns the concept of mutation, however much it'd want to.
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Do we already have grossly unsubtle Jew, Muslim, black, gypsy and Native American analogues so the setting can make some clumsy points about diversity and tolerance while fetishizing foreigners? That’s vital stuff
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>>61350516
>"instead of mutants"? It's not like GW owns the concept of mutation

I think that would be Disney, as of a few months ago
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>>61350520
Nice bait but, spoiler, "Tumblr" and "women" and "romance" aren't synonyms
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>>61350534
Good one
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>>61349810
While it’s a nice idea, I think by that point you’ve stopped doing anything with any kind of relation to the premise and are working on some kind of 7th Sea conversion.
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>>61350313
>>61350334
Tzeentch becomes Astaroth. The name is probably derived from Ishtar, who is a personification of the morning star, which is also associated with Lucifer, the demon of Pride. It's roundabout, but we can't just call him Lucifer.
Nurgle becomes Abaddon, which is the name of both the demon of Sloth and a bottomless pit.
Slaanesh could be Asmodeus, the demon of Lust, but I think that name is too well-known.
Same with Khorne, since the demon of Wrath is Satan.

As for Malal, he is obviously Acedia, the sin of emptiness, but there's no demon for that one so I'm not sure what to call him.
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>>61350661
That was one of my worries too. Just not sure how to combine Warhammer, bodice rippers and legal distinctness into one
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>>61350334
>Champions of Khorne are probably less "steroid munching lump of steel and muscle", and more like those creepy anime bad guys with the long bishie hair who lick blood off their swords and jizz their pants at the thought of meeting a "worthy enemy", because battle to them is a release.
I'd also point out that under this framework, a highly fanatical priest could also fall to the lord of fury just through misguided doctrine. After all, forced conversions or attempts at purification itself could be a Chaotic plot.

This also would allow Khorne (Satan now, I guess) the chance to have a bit more of a subversive quality to him.
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>>61350689
Can't you just translate what they're a god of into Latin or Greek? It's not like GW ever shied from naming things exactly what they are but in a different language
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>>61350924
Take your pick:

Latin:
>Treachery - Perfidia
>Fury - Ira
>Desire - Appetitus
>Despair - Tristitia

Greek:
>Treachery: προδοσία ("prodosia")
>Fury: μανία ("mania")
>Desire: λαγνεία ("Iagenia")
>Despair: απελπισία ("apelpisia")

Hebrew:
>Treachery: מעל ("Ma'al")
>Fury: חרון ("Kharon")
>Desire: חשק ("Khesheq")
>Despair: יגון ("Iagon")
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>>61351078
Hebrew versions sound pretty dope
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>>61351078
>>61350924
If "Kharon" is too bizarrely similar to the source material (heh), synonyms for fury include זעם ("Za'am"), חימה ("Khema"), and כעס ("Qa'as).
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>>61350924
>>61351078
>>61351088
>>61351099
Take any Hebrew word and add "-el" in the end to make the name of angelic sounding being.

>Ma'aliel
>Khematel
>Kheshqael
>Iagoniel

etc.
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>>61351147
This.

Also I saw we replace Chaos with something else and keep it a large region regardless.
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>>61351147
Giving them all the same suffix feels lazy and makes them seem samey. Plus, if we're using Latin or Hebrew words, I think the names have to be anglicized or they'll feel out of place.
Also Anon I get the impression that you speak Hebrew and don't realize that the transformations you're doing to add the -el suffix aren't obvious.
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>>61351330
I do speak Hebrew, I'm the fellow who came up with Hebrew names for dwarf cities and characters in the Muslimhammer thread last year.
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>>61351504
Just remember that most languages don't have triconsonantal roots so the typical Anglo has no idea how Khesheq + -el becomes Kheshqael.
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>>61351601
That's why I'm here to help.
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>>61349810
IMHO, you went a little too far with the historical equivalencies. You have to remember that this was originally a Warhammer ripoff, it's doing, at best, cultural aesthetics and maybe the general gist of some theme park version of real world countries. It never shied away from mishmashed anachronisms. More importantly, it's fundamentally a FANTASY setting. You saw yourself that you drove yourself so far into making it a pseudo historical one you got stuck with no narrative space for elves. Chill out.
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What are skaven like in Lovedagger?
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>>61352004
It's an all-male race, so probably gay.
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>>61352846
Skaven have females, they just don't feature much in Warhammer since they do nothing except give birth. Obviously, that's not much good material for a girl oriented game.
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>>61352885
>Skaven have females,
Technically they do, but they're barely conscious and never leave the tunnels, so it's effectively an all-male race. That means they're super gay.
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>>61353060
Or in Lovedagger the females aren't nonsentient. Could make them into evil matriarch types who plot and scheme among themselves or are the true powers behind the Council of Thirteen or what have you. Or make it so that infertile females have special status similar to Grey Seers and wield similar powers in society.
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>>61353209
>Or make it so that infertile females have special status similar to Grey Seers and wield similar powers in society.
This is a good idea.
Also, I do remember hearing that old Skaven fluff had infertile females that were indistinguishable from males, to the point that Skaven society didn't even conceive of them as different from males and non-Skaven couldn't tell them apart anyway.
There probably should be a yaoi race though
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>>61353294
I'm sure an equivalent of the WH universe has plenty enough faggotry to go around without having to make a race of gay furries specifically for the purpose.
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I'm bumping the shit out of this. It can't die just yet!
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>>61348679
>Usually the same shit guys play

Generally speaking this is true, it's definitely a useful phrase for layman discussions. When people ask which TTRPGs attract a higher percentage of women they usually shouldn't get a solid answer.

In this case however it's important and this kind of trite statement is not useful to the discussion. Some TTRPGs have gender balances that deviate from the expected average across TTRPGs as a whole in a significant way. In order to create a TTRPG that appeals to female players we need to know what keeps a female player in a game.

Consider 5e for instance, I believe that has a higher ratio of females than the expected average for a TTRPG, but that can be attributed to its popularity rather than anything specific to the system. To put it bluntly, normies tend to have female friends and they play 5e together. 5e is useless to us in this context.

We need to know which system women decide to play after they play 5 or 10 systems and we need to know why that is. In order to find that out we need to find out which systems have a higher than expected proportion of female players.

We can definitely use the Blue Rose thing, I was about to suggest that we need clear rules with little interplay as I believe that women prefer to resolve disputes over the rules with short non-confrontational discussions about the issue at hand, accepting decisions after a reasonable time has passed and group consensus has been reached. This differs from men, who I believe prefer to argue for hours about the wording to get the outcome they want. Complicated and lengthy rules favour male methods, general guidelines favour female methods.

Now that we have an idea of the mechanical flavour female players might prefer in general we can look for evidence that supports or disproves this. Apparently Blue Rose was very slimmed down rules wise so this might be something we should look in to, has anyone here played BR in a majority female group?
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Holy shit, I haven't seen one of these threads in years.
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>>61355958
BR, ironically, despite having a setting (and marketing campaign, and art design) that can't stop sucking its own cock about how attractive it has to be to women, with its feminist romantic liberal fantasy what have you, actually has the exact opposite mechanics of what you'd imagine should work. The first edition worked off of fucking True20, a clunky, cumbersome, broken mess of an attempt at turning d20 into a generic system (it was the precursor for the current version of Mutants & Masterminds but played a lot more like D&D with more dice rolling). The current edition uses AGE, of all things, a 3d6 based system DESIGNED AROUND DETAILED CINEMATIC TACTICAL COMBAT (originally conceived for the Dragon Age RPG). Why Green Ronin decided to go with this over, say, their very own Chronicle System, a system designed around playing scheming noble having long term social conflicts, shall probably remain a mystery for the ages.

TL;DR: Blue Rose is a fascinating study at a women targeted SETTING, but not by any stretch of the terms women targeted mechanics.
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>>61346318
Well yeah, but we're not making an RPG for girls, we're making an RPG for guys as *if* it was made for girls.
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>>61353209
That just makes them Drow if they liked rats instead of spiders though.
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Off the top of my head, regarding very generic guidelines for RPG mechanics (mind you, I'm still in favor of nailing down more setting elements first):

* d6 based. Without a history as a wargame behind it, Lovedagger Storytelling Game or whatever it's called in the so called "Games Kitchen Timeline" won't be able to rely on its target audience having access to a ton of funny shaped dice.
* By the same token, rolls should require relatively few dice. No insane Shadowrun situations where you need to roll 48 dice to attack.
* That said, the dice mechanic should probably be "maths lite". You should be able to resolve a situation with as less mental calculations being involved as possible (not because women are bad at maths, but because without a history of wargaming behind the game, again, it wouldn't have that kind of traditional baggage on it). I want to say "counting successes" but that might limit the system a little too much if we want to keep dice pools small. Maybe a simple "pick highest" system of some variety?
* Actually can't decide whether I think it'd make more sense for the system to have EXTENSIVE social combat mechanics, or none at all. It might sound weird to you for a social focused game NOT to have extensive social combat mechanics, but think about it: if the game is designed with people in mind who'd treat it as a story first and a game second, would they really want mechanics to get in the way of the most important part? Seeing as, unlike, for example, physical combat, that CAN be easily handled through roleplay?

In a way, I think we should design the mechanics with the mindset that they're aimed at people who are not looking to play a "roleplaying game", they're looking to do structured improv. They want to be able to accomplish as much as possible by talking, acting, and possibly negotiating results. Dice rolling and consulting numerical stats should be exceptions, not standards.
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>>61356154

You seem to know a lot about the behind the scenes aspects of mechanics. That will be extremely useful in the long run and it would be amazing if you helped us pick out a few systems for comparison once we decide what kind of flavour we're looking for.

Can you describe how True20 is clunky and cumbersome and do you have a link to the rules themselves? Looking at the very short True20 page on wikipedia it seems like people regard it as simplified. Cutting down the initial decisions like classes to 3 and having fewer choices to make when levelling up and having the choices be generally universal seems like a much less time intensive system, nobody has to memorise half a dozen books to know if a feat they want is restricted for them because of their stats, class, other feats, armour etc.

The most important thing we need right now is a focus group, we're looking for people who have played TTRPGs with groups involving large proportions of women, ideally people who had a close relationship with these women so they talked about the game outside of the scheduled game. We need to know which systems women tend to keep playing, e.g. which non-D&D games have large proportions of female players and more importantly why these women play these games.

We can work it out from numbers if we have to, find common themes among the mechanics of high female proportion TTRPGs and extract them but it would be better to hear a few anecdotes to give us a starting point.
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>>61356402
I think there're still a few steps between "skaven" and "drow" other than which gender calls the shots, anon.

>>61356419
Or you could all stop being such autists humiliating yourselves trying to conceive of the preferences of the curious mystical creatures called "women" and just kitbash something out of White Wolf's old quickstart systems.
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>>61356419
>In a way, I think we should design the mechanics with the mindset that they're aimed at people who are not looking to play a "roleplaying game", they're looking to do structured improv. They want to be able to accomplish as much as possible by talking, acting, and possibly negotiating results. Dice rolling and consulting numerical stats should be exceptions, not standards.

If I were to design Lovedagger with an eye towards modern day gaming I'd also say "a system optimized for playing by post/over chat style", as those are (at least in my country) by far and wide more common with women and mechanically range from completely to merely almost completely freeform.

If we really want to pretend we're writing a game that "could've been" designed in that alternate timeline, of course, this is not an issue because it would've come out before the internet became widespread.
>>
Throwing this into the brainstorm, but if you really want to go full rules lite storygame and stuff, you can make a character's four attributes be based on the mirror of the traits of the four Chaos Gods/Dark Powers. Virtues to their Vices.

Insight (mirror of Treachery)
Hope (mirror of Despair)
Love (mirror of Desire)
Courage (mirror of Fury)

Don't know how they'll work but it sounds cool in my mind. Probably smarter to just stick with the old Physical/Mental/Social trifecta or whatever, but meh.
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>>61356419

You're right about the d6 base and the few dice rolls. I'm concerned that a d6 base will get boring as I enjoy using non-d6 dice, but we need to get opinions on that from female players.

The rolls lite idea is good, I can't see women wanting to sit there in silence for 5-10 minutes while they each individually calculate their rolls and modifiers and such, (which is probably why no girls play Pathfinder.)

As for the social aspect I think we definitely need some way of determining success or failure in addition to good roleplaying. There needs to be an element of objective randomness otherwise it just becomes based on GM discretion which is never fun. We can have few rules for it and include heavy circumstantial modifiers for roleplay. We can have the GM be able to award something like the equivalent of +8 or -8 in pathfinder in increments of 2 based on the content of the roleplay.
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>>61356288
>>61356630
>>61356446
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>>61356565
I can envision that. Traits are rolled in combinations (maybe with skills?), and each one takes "damage" to represent emotional trauma by converting dice from it into differently colored ones. Like, as you get angrier, more and more of your Courage dice become Fury dice, which work the same except that as you roll them as part of your dice pool, if they roll a 1 for example your character has an angry outburst.

Then again, having to heft around like 8 different colors of dice may not be what we were going for with this concept.
>>
>>61356565

>Insight
Handles dex/str in combat (perceiving when/where to attack and landing a hit). Handles perception out of combat, gathering information, tied to how much information you can get out of someone.

>Hope
Handles con in combat along with courage, functions as HP. Out of combat gives a bonus to diplomacy, influences how much others like you, high hope gives off a positive aura which makes people drawn to you.

>Love
Handles stamina/dedication, higher love values give you a larger number of actions per turn. Out of combat a high love value gives you a bonus to dedication from NPCs and increases their chances of successfully completing an action in your favour when attempting to do so.

>Courage
Handles con/HP alongside hope. Can provide temporary HP or restore some HP. Out of combat it increases the chance of success with risqué or bold actions, inspires allies to take greater risks than they usually would on your behalf.

That's the feel I'm getting for them, obviously we need much more crunch before we finalize those definitions but if we go with those traits we can definitely make it work.
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>>61356757
If you really want to go with that scheme (personally I'm not sure I dig it, feels too much like some Sailor Moon bullshit for even a girl oriented Warhammer clone), I'd instead go with far more generic
>Insight for intelligence, perception, dexterity
>Hope for stamina/willpower/composure/resistance
>Love for charisma/manipulation/some social stuff
>Courage for force/speed/strength/combat stuff
Although I guess there's some merit to the idea each attribute should have a combat function, a social function, and a personal function.
IMHO just go with regular attributes instead of trying to reinvent the artsy fartsy wheel. Nobody really knows what "Love" means as an attribute, that's some Vincent Baker bullshit. Dex, Int, Str, whatever.
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>>61356899
>>61356757
Replace insight with truth and it can be used as a sort of secondary "virtue" system that can be added to rolls when dramatically appropriate but carries the risk of corrupting the virtue with the appropriate vice/causing emotional fallout if the dice fall poorly. So if you're doing something courageously you get to roll extra dice from courage, but if some of your courage is tainted with fury you risk a rage outburst. If you're rolling with hope but your hope is tainted with despair, you risk falling into melancholy. If you roll for truth and it's tainted you risk causing a mess by lying/becoming delusional, etc.
>>
Check out Atlas Games' WaRP system. It's the one used in the first edition of Over the Edge. Simple and effective.
>>
For the love of all that's holy, don't let this die. I'm going to sleep now and I want this thread up and alive by when I wake up.
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>>61356899
We can go with regular attributes. I think 4 is a reasonable number of attributes as it cuts down on keeping track of multiple modifiers, splitting up skills and general interplay of numbers and rules which I think should be a main focus, but I'm not set on that until we get some feedback from people who are either part of the target audience or happen to know stuff from members of the target audience first hand.

Ideas for the layout could be to have a combat attribute (att), a non-combat att and 2 hybrid atts. Since the focus is mainly social we could also go with a combat att a hybrid att and 2 non-combat atts.
2.
>Combat
Generic modifier for hitting stuff and using weapons. Higher modifiers (mods) give access to higher tier weapons, reflects training in weapon and armour use and in either real or simulated combat situations.

>Energy
Handles HP in combat, out of combat provides you with the social equivalent of hero or fate points allowing you to take the floor from an NPC or even PC without it seeming forced or weird IC. Can be countered with social points from other players. I can see this causing a lot of drama in steamy romance scenes where all the players are vying for the attention of not!Christian Grey. We should talk about whether or not this is a desirable mechanic. If not we should replace it with something else.

>Insight
Information gathering and reading between the lines in social situations. Perception checks for things like hidden doors or dishevelled clothing, the wrong buttons done up on a shirt where they were fine before etc. Also controls intelligence and a static mod which gives a bonus to first impressions, NPCs could have a comparison value which gives them a higher chance of liking you when they first meet you if they recognise that you are intelligent/insightful. Can also work the opposite way with members of the lower classes, with the intelligent ones perceiving you as a conniving backstabber if you seem too perceptive. cont
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>>61356899
>>61357251

I'm thinking of Insight as the defensive and passive social att. Insight lets you check motivations and be reminded of relevant personal connections of the person you're talking to etc. It should also handle disguises.

>Charisma
The active or offensive social att, handles bonuses to speech checks, persuasion, also tied to the vast majority of skills in game.

I started writing these and realized that the second option of att types is much better so I won't bother describing the first.

>>61356992

That's a really good idea, we should tie it in to the system somewhere but I don't think it fits as an att.
>>
I thought of going forward and suggesting the not!Austrian Empire be called the "Auroran Empire" (founded by Saint/Queen/Empress Aurore) because it sounds exactly like the kind of teeth grindingly cheesy, kitchsy name this parody needs, but then realized that's a thing that exists in Escape Velocity Nova and we could be totally sued for using.
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>>61357501

Aurosan, pronounced a-rose-an.
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>>61357623
Ruled from the city of Glazfort (Glasturm?). Originally named derogatorily by the Empress' barbaric enemies in ancient times for having such laughably poor defenses, it now bears the name with smugness, proudly surrounding an actual, beautiful, colored glass and crystal palace for the Imperial family's dwelling. It is located so that in the morning, the light rising from behind the mountains breaks through it to cast an auroran rainbow across the Imperial plaza.

(it also has marvelous defenses, but nobody looks at those)
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>>61357838

That sounds amazing, really creative. Stick a rose garden in there to play in to the pronunciation of the new name of the empire and give players who make the connection a tingly smug feeling and we're golden.

Can we work in some way of making the defences actual crystal/glass of a hardened or reinforced variety for aesthetics?

We also need some artwork, I think this could be the idea to take to the art threads. Would you make the post if there's currently an active art thread? With it being your idea I think you can convey the image best through words, the way you described it there was stunning. Try to be really detailed on as many aspects as you can with the art people, I think they appreciate that. If someone decides to help us out we might have it within a couple of weeks and we can run it as the thread OP to show tangible progress.
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>>61357838
>>61357929

Here is the link to the drawthread.

>>61335931
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>>61357929
>Can we work in some way of making the defences actual crystal/glass of a hardened or reinforced variety for aesthetics?
I actually think it's fitting for the city's defenses to be plain old stone walls, cannons and dudes with guns. They always exist, they're just not the part of the city that usually appears "on screen". It's hidden behind the manors and the mansions and the opera houses. The city is full of stained glass but rather than being transparent it hides the solid reality of the walls.

That said I'd dig it that one time someone tried conquering the city only to reach the palace and find out it's actually been built with the assistance of the various wizards guilds and is actually borderline indestructible/shoots lasers from everywhere/what have you.
>>
Seeing as the odds of this thread surviving the next couple of hours are slim to none, anyone wants to volunteer to add all this to the 1d4chan article (or make a new one, since this is kind of its own thing independent from the strict Warhammer parody) or do we just let this disappear like tears in the rain?
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>>61357998

That seems reasonable, I think the city should be quite colourful if that's what we're going for but we can have both. Perhaps a rare and expensive ore for the guns and cannons, giving them a bright colouration. Bright, ostentatious uniforms and some kind of dyed stone, or maybe naturally pigmented.

What kind of colour theme are you going for with the city's rows of stained glass. We can brainstorm some colours that work with the theme and see if we can find real life ores and stones that match those colours. While the defences came later presumably because of the barbaric enemies the Empress decided to make the entire set of defences absolutely FABULOUS.
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>>61358131
This is of great interest to me and I'd love to continue this discussion but, alas, must go to work. Keep this thread alive for some seven hours or so and by God, we'll continue this.
>>
The Kobolds are a multiracial coalition of various humanoid species. Some canid and furry, others more typically humanoid but with features like coal black skin and eyes that glow like burning coals. There are at least a dozen subspecies displaying all manner of strange appearances but their one underlying cultural touchstone is a distrust of the surface world and a desire to hoard the wealth of the caverns and keep it to themselves.

This puts them in stark contrast with the Zwerg who appear human but tend to have much larger noses and long beards as well as a short, stout physical structure. Zwerg are sturdy, perhaps superhumanly so and have a fondness for material wealth and craftsmanship as well as ties of loyalty to various human groups. There are numerous Zwergan kingdoms and they tend to engage in champion based warfare with one another based on the proxy wars that occur between human states that the various Zwerg clans have chosen to back.
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>>61350137
>>61350154
>>61358901
Calling dwarves or elves or whatever by a different name is always a bad idea.
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>>61359775
Agreed, but zwerg is just German for 'dwarf'. Not that there was any point at all in this renaming
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>>61358083
Was it strictly a Warhammer parody at any point? It always struck me as more of a thought experiment
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>>61356992
Maybe have a pool of virtue points that you can use to boost your rolls but if you do that, you turn used virtue point into a vice point. There also needs to be way to redeem vice points. Maybe you need to indulge into the vice, or do some heroic deed, or maybe you can convert it by intentionally penalizing your actions
>>
This is some good stuff, but might want to name it something other than “Lovedagger”. The original parody had value, too.
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>>61362845
Pretty sure people are trying to flesh out same lovedagger. What you see in this thread is just a bunch of ideas
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>>61362945
I know, that's what I'm saying. If the people in this thread "have their way" (I like what they're doing, don't get me wrong), what they'll end up with would be a serious, good game. And that's excellent. But I'll also want for there to remain a funny parody of "Warhammer for Girls" without someone erasing the 1d4chan page or something because you people made it into something essentially different.
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>>61361793
>Maybe have a pool of virtue points that you can use to boost your rolls but if you do that, you turn used virtue point into a vice point. There also needs to be way to redeem vice points. Maybe you need to indulge into the vice, or do some heroic deed, or maybe you can convert it by intentionally penalizing your actions
That doesn't really make narrative sense. Why would relying on Hope automatically turn it to Despair? I could see it happening if you try to use Hope and *fail* (for that matter, that's how I could see Love decaying into Desire, Courage decaying into Fury, or Insight becoming insanity/"treachery of the mind"), if anything. Or if you want some more variety, which seems desirable in this case, don't tie it to plain success/failure but rather to some combination of results. Like, each die that rolls a 4 (that's the number of the Dark Powers, and besides, it doesn't skew the results inherently) causes a Virtue point to decay into a Vice regardless of the results. If a Vice die rolls a 4, it causes some negative backlash due to the emotional effects regardless of the results of the roll, with more Vice 4's causing harsher backlash (so you could succeed at a roll with lots of Despair dice, but if you got three 4's it's going to be really taxing and your character doesn't see the point and breaks down and needs to be comforted or whatever)
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>>61363290
So, the new edition of Over the Edge?
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>>61359775
>>61359914
Ain’t no need for that coyness. The whole reason we got “aelves” and “duerdin” in the first place is GW got buttblasted you can’t trademark mythological creatures. And given how generic a lot of Warhammer Fantasy is at its core it’d be hard to even prove a connection so long as you don’t go giving the dwarfs a book of grudges or the elves a phoenix king.

Just about the only thing you couldn’t steal outright is the skaven, but even that can’t be too hard given that Daniel Fox got away with naming his race of conniving plague worshipping Nazi ratpeople mad scientists led by magic rock addicted horned sorcerer rats “Skrazzak.”
>>
Assuming you’d want that in your romantic fantasy game for some reason.

Which brings up an interesting concern, given that you’ve shown willingness to diverge farther from the source material: according to Blue Rose, if nothing else, one of the tenets of romantic fantasy is that purely evil beings, especially entire races of purely evil creatures, are rare or nonexistent. Everyone should have reasons for doing what they do which can at the very least be understood, if not sympathized with (or, obviously, agreed with). With that in mind, I think you might need to make some serious, basic changes to how the setting includes and how we think of races like greenskins, trolls, skaven and the like (demons and such probably get a pass for actually being entities of cosmic evil, rather than what’s meant to be seen as a true “race”)
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>>61363687
I assume it's some AoS shitter trying to push dumb names he's used to through
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>>61363796
It’s not about allure, it’s about the possibility of redemption being one of the core themes of the genre.
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>>61363719
Honestly, I see no reason entities couldnt be pure unapologetic evil and alluring at the same time

>>61363882
Redemption... Maybe. But why would anyone want to redeem monsters like the skaven?
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>>61363919
Depends on how monstrously you depict them.
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>>61363719
Maybe it has merit to divide more explicitly creatures and things that are worth paying attention to ("actors") and threats and hazards ("extras")? It's already there in WH with bretonnians, tomb kings and chaos. If evil, the former would be complex and redeemable while the latter a slavering horde
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>>61364043
״Neutral” isn’t the same as “secondary character”
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>>61358901
What are we going with as for dwarf wome?
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>>61364343
It's already on the wiki. They're beautiful and prized and look quite unlike men
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>>61364428
>still hairy and short
Is the hairy part really required? What does it even mean? If you want them to look like little fairy elf girls how does that mesh with being “hairy”?
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>>61364607
Eighties hair?
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>>61364607
>>61364658
Just envision them as having long ass Godiva hair. Cutting their hair is as taboo to them as cutting a male dwarf’s beard.
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>>61364779
The dwarven cultural equivalent of rebellious teenagers would totally do their hair up in elaborate braids, shunning the long, carefully brushed and tamed styles of their forebearers. Most would stick with elaborate, if relatively regular braids, but the particularly rebellious go for crazy fashion braids that mimic things like warrior armor, getting a kind of "dwarven amazon" feel to them.

Male dwarven rebels style their beards like crazy, cutting out (but never shaving entirely) their beards to express their individuality. Think everything from Dali moustaches to General Zhao sideburns, much to the shock of older dwarven generations.
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>>61364963
Wouldn’t dwarf women braid their hair anyhow? (And fill it with jewelery and gold and all)

Rebellious ones will either use non traditional styles or just cut or shave it.

If you want to go full gender studies on this shit, long ass hair could be seen as a form of subtle oppression since it limits the ability to physically act.
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>>61365020
>If you want to go full gender studies on this shit, long ass hair could be seen as a form of subtle oppression since it limits the ability to physically act.
This loses any veracity with dwarves, since males also have impractically long hair on their chins, which is arguably even worse
>>
What’s with elves here?
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>>61365860
Literally the same
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>>61346912
Yes. Girls play D&D and WoD the most. Surprise surprise, the most popular RPGs among dudes are also the most popular ones among chicks.

IIRC the specific WoD lines played most by girls were more surprising.
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>>61346296
Didn't the 40K version of this have the Mechanicus as like a more Nihei-esque thing, with cyborg prettyboys and such? I very much approved of that.

>>61366296
>IIRC the specific WoD lines played most by girls were more surprising.

There was an attempt to gauge this, though it was organized by fans and therefore shouldn't be considered super reliable. The results indicated that V:tM was and still is the game most played by women (and in general), but the runners up are W:tF and C:tL, with V:tR being pretty unpopular.
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>>61366725
Yeah, Mechanicus are Ergo Proxy/BLAME! bishies now.
>>
What's magic like in Lovedagger? We want to keep it reasonably generic fantasy while still being similar to Warhammer, but at the same time we can't use the Winds of Magic, because that's probably copyrighted.
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>>61367000
Tides of Magic. Boom.
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>>61367022
>somehow tied to the phases of the moon with a vaguely-defined connection to the ocean
Nice.
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I'm guessing orcs and beastmen are noble savages in this continuity?
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>>61367800
I think orcs should still be violent chimps because that's integral to the setting we're ripping off.
Beastmen could definitely be noble savages, though. They could represent the lighter side of Chaos, so they're still dangerous but not a horde of rape monsters out to annihilate civilization.
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>>61368004
You could play on the whole element of being the least-loved sons of Chaos. In the standard continuity, beastmen basically worship the Ruinous Powers because they have no choice - the mark of Chaos is on them from birth. They know the gods are evil and give less than zero shits about them, and don't understand why the fuck you'd even worship them if you have other options.

So, maybe make them primarily Malal worshipers. They can't escape Chaos but they can worship the Chaos God that is powered by spite and self-destruction, and actively wants to fuck over the other Ruinous Powers. So now instead of supreme assholes they're misunderstood bad boys, built for that section of the female fa/tg/uy audience that fantasizes about getting carried off by a noble savage and reads erotic werewolf erotica.
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>>61368131
>erotic werewolf erotica

I may have had a small brainfart here.
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>>61368150
d-double erotic
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>>61368131
Or the whole Beauty and the Beast
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>>61368368
>beastman special character who was born as a noble of the Empire and mutated sometime in their youth
>still has his land and castle, and affects nobility, but his holdings are run by beastmen now
>servants became animate armour due to his experiments with trying to cure the beastman curse
>his hordes are considered invaders by the Empire, who see his lands as having been occupied by a hostile army, but he mostly just wants to be left alone and research mutation

Yeah, this is definitely the kind of reference that would be in Warhammer if it had been made for chicks.
>>
All that talk of beastmen raises an important question: vampires are obviously a thing in such a setting, but what about werewolves? Warhammer's always been weirdly dodgy about those. We know there are mutant skinwolves in Norsca and we know there's some very sparse canonical information about good aligned "Children of Ulric" who can turn into wolves and protect the villages of Middenheim. Where do we veer in Lovedagger? If you want to do trashy teenaged girl romance, there's a lot of appeal both to the "woe is me, I can't love you because I'll hurt you" cursed monster and to the noble, wild, pure "natural" werewolf who has one foot in each of two worlds.
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>>61368839
Might make sense to have neutral werewolves of some sort, especially in the light of moon-based magic, and have a separate breed of them tainted with Fury
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>>61368998
>not Desire
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>>61368839
Lump 'em with beastmen? Most relatively modern references to 'weres' in Warhammer have them as a mutation. Having them be manifestations of corrupted magic ties into the whole tides of magic angle, with the connection to the moon.

You could have a sect or order of them that try to disavow the Dark Gods entirely, dedicating themselves to Ulric. Or maybe to the appropriate god of their region, IIRC Lileath is a lunar goddess as well as the goddess of dreams.
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>>61350689
>>61350924
>>61351078
I feel like just naming the gods as straight up Latin or Hebrew words is kinda a cop-out. At least, in most cases Kharon is a pretty good one. Acedia is particularly bad IMO.

If we're gonna go with Asmodeus at least use the old form that barely anybody knows, Ashmedai.
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>>61369151
>Acedia is particularly bad IMO.
Oh, I agree entirely. It's just the sin that fits Malal like a glove, but like I said, I couldn't find a demon associated with it so it's a hard to get a name out of that.
I don't think we should use words as names either unless they're anglicized.
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>>61369151
While Kharon sounds good, it's probably not the optimal solution if you're looking to essentially circumvent the copyright for Khorne.
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>>61369289
Easy - change it to "Karon."
That's how it's going to be pronounced anyway.
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>>61350689
>Asmodeus, but I think that name is too well-known
Not any more than Abaddon or Astaroth, surely

>Same with Khorne, since the demon of Wrath is Satan.
If you go for long chains of connections, you could go Satan -> Shaitan -> Iblis -> Yilbis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbis)
>>
Or just make up demonic sounding names. Gademoth, Uzursha, Illokyr, Marrus, Balvath, whatever. Bang your head against the keyboard until you get something you like.
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>>61369538
Astaroth is definitely more obscure than the other two.
Abaddon is a name people have heard but I don't think it conjures any particular image. I always think of the MegaTen version, which is basically just a big hungry mouth with legs
For me, personally, "Asmodeus" sounds too grand for the demon of Lust. It seems to be a popular name for demon kings, i.e. Lucifer expies. In D&D he even got promoted to a god in the current edition.

>If you go for long chains of connections, you could go Satan -> Shaitan -> Iblis -> Yilbis
This could work.

>>61369859
This could also work. I'm pretty sure it's what GW did.
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>>61370388
>I'm pretty sure it's what GW did.
Pretty sure Nurgle is Nergal and Khorne is Kharon. I think I've read somewhere years ago what Slaanesh's name was ripped off of, can't remember what. Tzeench is probably a random string of letters
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>>61370515
>Nergal
Forgot about him. And I'd been wondering if "Nurgle" meant anything recently.
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>>61350689
>As for Malal, he is obviously Acedia, the sin of emptiness, but there's no demon for that one so I'm not sure what to call him.
Name him after Belphegor?

Acedia and sloth are damn similar, at least in the aspect of emotional sluggishness.

>>61368131
If they're also worshippers of Malal, you could work up the 'strong stoic' angle similarly.
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>>61370388
>For me, personally, "Asmodeus" sounds too grand for the demon of Lust.
Why is he a lust demon, anyway? Astaroth would make more sense, what with it being derived from Ishtar/Inanna. While Asmodeus is derived from Aeshma Daeva (literally "Angry Demon")
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>>61370590
>Asmodeus is derived from Aeshma Daeva (literally "Angry Demon")
That's debatable. The Hebrew name "Ashmedai" comes from the root word "Shamad" (["he] has destroyed") and simply means "destroyer".
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>>61370756
Still not particularly lusty
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>>61370886
The closest Hebrew concept would be "Yetzer Ra"/"Yezter Ha'Roa" ("Evil Urge"). "Yetzer" is "urge" (curiously, it is related to a word that means "creation", but NOT in the sense of reproduction but rather craftsmanship), "Ra" means "evil" ("Roa" is the noun, "Ra" is the adjective).
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>>61370590
He's not. In the original Hebrew he's the king of earthly demons.

However, someone much later wrote a play where he starred as the antagonist, and they wrote him as a lust demon. The portrayal stuck, because even fewer people could speak Hebrew than could speak Latin, and even they were a tiny fraction of the population.

That said, I do feel like Slaanesh has always been more 'royal' than the other gods. He's the Dark Prince, the Princess of Pleasure, the King of Secrets, etc.
>>
I feel like establishing new names for the Chaos Gods is something that can be done much later. It's not like we're likely to use them in this thread.
>>
Tau=Zehn (pun involving an Eastern Religion, focus on emotional emptiness instead of harmony)
Fire Caste=Lightning School
Earth Caste=Mountain School
Water Caste=River School
Air Caste=Cloud School
Ethereal=Ocean School
>>
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>>61371575
Fair enough. Still, it's something to definitely figure out.

On a completely different aside, what's the deal with Lustria and the Lizardmen in this setting? I mean, regardless of anything Amazons are still going to be there because this is a world pulling from bodice rippers and classical fantasy, and there's no piece of mythology quite as bodice-ripping as the Girdle of Hyppolita. However, are our lizardmen slightly-reptillian humans, for the strange aztec aesthetic, or are we going full pic related? Regardless, I think playing up the Man part of Lizardmen would be good for making Lustria more prominent in the more dramatic and character-focused world of Lovedagger. An ancient jungle filled with strange, alien people, monumental cities, and magics that harken back to the dawn of the world and the eternal struggle against the Dark Gods.
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>>61371688
Huh, I'd totally forgotten about Amazons.

And yeah you're probably right about lizardmen.
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>>61371688
>>61371706
Maybe Amazons and Lizardmen should be merged, with Lizardmen being the bioengineered servants? Amazons as the real 'citizens' of Lustria, Skinks as an intellectual servant caste (scibes, etc), Saurus as a military caste, Slaan as the living gods.
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>>61371688
Speaking of Amazons, which come from Greek mythology - it always struck me as interesting how the Warhammer world never had a proper equivalent of either Greece or Rome. What would that be?
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>>61371602
Wrong Warhammer.
Plus the Ethereals are pretty obviously the Japanese element of Void, being weeaboos with anime mecha and all. If anything they'd be the Star School, or to fit the Tau pattern where they're the only ones not called "___ Caste," something like "Starchildren."
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>>61371904
Isn't there a not!Italy and it just isn't important enough to get much attention?
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>>61371904
Tilea is Italy, and is kind of a mixture of late Roman Empire influences and much more modern 'Venician' sort of Italian cliches, arranged into city-states reminiscent of the Greeks.
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>>61371994
Note that Tileans, rather than copying a not!Roman Empire of their past, are copying the elves that once lived there and whose abandoned cities they built their kingdoms on. These guys here are, without knowing it, basically cosplaying as White Lions.
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>>61372013
I feel like we should distribute vampires a little more, and heavily suggest that Tilea and Estalia are hotspots for Lahmians. They suit the Spanish-Italian intrigue theme both countries have.
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>>61371933
Yes, but in Lovedagger 40k tau are evil robo-Confucians. So I went for a more Chinese flavor.
>>
Thoughts on making magic mostly the domain of women? The idea that sensitive, more emotionally driven women are more suited the magic than men is a pretty popular one, and it's one of the reasons why women so often choose to play spellcasters in TTRPGs.
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>>61372813
well half the point of this is making a bodice ripper mashup. Maybe have the priesthood of the empire be all about collecting and using magic properly? Vague air of stuff like the catholic church funding scholars for profit and propaganda?

If the intelligentsia of the empire is feminine then one of the prevailing notions will be that women are just better at those things and men are suited for grunt work and too aggressive for study.
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>>61372813
>Maybe have the priesthood of the empire be all about collecting and using magic properly? Vague air of stuff like the catholic church funding scholars for profit and propaganda?

Could be interesting.

>If the intelligentsia of the empire is feminine then one of the prevailing notions will be that women are just better at those things and men are suited for grunt work and too aggressive for study.

Not sure about this. Competent men are a fixture of bodice rippers, for obvious reasons. It would be appropriate to make much of the Empire's nobility deeply corrupt and cowardly, making the heroic men stand out more, and also feeding into the popular idea of less affluent dudes being 'purer' somehow (i.e. the farmhand, the seaman, the knight from low birth, etc etc, common romantic fantasies).
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>>61373690
Yeah, bodice rippers are kind of the opposite of what you’d normally think of as “feminism”. It’s not the place to set a matriarchy.
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>>61346296
>1. Decide on a mechanical framework for a no shit Lovedagger RPG.

Basically, look at the latest edition of CofD. It's pretty much designed for this kind of game.
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>>61346912
Critical Role style D&D and PbtA games
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>>61376357
Yeah, WoD is a pretty good base I think. There's a reason they're so popular with the female demographic.
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>>61378228
Isn't the setting the reason? WoD systems tend to be unremarkable
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>>61356992
>secondary "virtue" system
Why not go full Pendragon if we have opposed pairs of virtues?
SInce it's a die pool system, possibly based on WoD but with smallish pools of d6s, I'd imagine it working this way:

You have your attributes and skills (a short list of broad skills that don't map one-to-one onto attributes), each ranked 0-3. When attempting a task, you pick an attribute and a skill and roll this amount of dice. 5+ is a success.

You also have 4 pairs of virtues/vices, each pair ranked 1-6. When you need some extra power, you can invoke a virtue/vice. Let's say, our character Courage/Fury at 4 and she wants to invoke it.
Let's says she goes for Courage. To do this, she takes a d6 and rolls it, if the result is lower or equal to the rating (4), she succeeds. If she wanted to invoke Fury, she'd have to roll equal or above.
If she succeds on her invokation roll, for the remainder of the scene the target number on all her rolls drops by 2, but the first time she rolls a failure, target number goes where it was, her Courage/Fury shifts to the opposite end (so to 3 if she invoked Courage and 5 if Fury) and she suffers from some detrimental effect determined by the virtue/vice she invoked. Possibly, her Courage fails her or her Fury overwhelms her.
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I gotta say after reading through the 40k section, the "female" part gets a bit overplayed. The stuff with tech being based on wombs, space marines being divided between male and female chapters, etc. Just a little weird for such an otherwise fun setting.

It kinda reminds me of The Scarlet Pimpernel if that book wasn't trash.
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>>61380213
>The stuff with tech being based on wombs
That's what a nanofabricator is, really. Though you're right that directly comparing them to wombs might be a bit much

>space marines being divided between male and female chapters
Always hated that and still do. I think they should be mixed, the way IG is.
And "girl marines are loyal, boy marines are traitors" also wasn't a good idea
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>>61380282
The page itself says it best. The setting isn't supposed to be Warhammer 40k with flipped genders, it's supposed to be Warhammer 40k with a different focus. More focused on the individual scale, with characters being able to develop and grow, rather than Warhammer's army scale stories and stubborn rigidity.
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>>61380385
Yes, it should be be focused on individuals and what's going on within them. I fail to see how "girls good, boys bad" helps with that. If anything, there should be plenty of both
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>>61380385
Are you agreeing with him or disagreeing? I can't tell.
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>>61350431
>https://pastebin.com/7GyzfZjT
I like it. The tones of the parts were distinct, even though some of the sentences in Tomcat bit are a bit jumbled. Though I suppose it reflects his thought process
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>>61381673
yeah I need to go back and clean it up. Too many repeated words and so on.
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>>61380385
>>61380420
The part about male space marine chapters being fallen came from when Lovedagger was more explicitly a parody of twopennt paperback “feminist” fantasy and trashy erotic literature. It was a “two birds with one stone” scenario, by which “women are pandered to” (tongue in cheek) by depicting them as pure and incorruptible while at the same time ensuring any space marine man would be as dark, tortured and “dangerous” as the genre requires.
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>>61382514
>any space marine man would be as dark, tortured and “dangerous” as the genre requires
You know, canon muhreens would be plenty dark and dangerous and possibly tortured. Well, as long as they're not space woofs
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>>61379959
>You have your attributes and skills
Addition for that

I'd propose 4 attributes: Force, Grace, Insight, Resolve. Not super sure about the last one, since it's kinda passive.
All of these are qually useful in combat or social situation.

Skills need some thinking, but I'd use Combat, Medicine, Persuasion, Deception, Performance, Learning, Occult for starters
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As for character types, in Lovedagger fantasy I'd say the WFRP career system is absolute overkill. If there'd even be a mechanical distinction (maybe a bunch of special abilities for each, or they have different XP costs to raise skills a la FWtD), I suppose something more similar to 4th edition's archetypes might do as the whole thing, with some modifications. Say, "military", "academic", "rural", "urban", "courtier", etc.
Part of me's inclined to go full Pendragon and establish a clearer focus through the available options, e.g. by making all of them various types of nobility (so "classes" would be things like "The Courtier", "The Hunter", "The Knight", "The Wizard", "The Heartbreaker", "The Rapscallion", "The Scholar", etc.). But girl oriented literature is just too big on rags to riches stories and it's inconceivable for there to not be an option to play a character from humbler beginnings. Whether the farmgirl who falls in love with a duke or the rank and file soldier who earns a title and must now navigate the unfamiliar battlefield of court.

In a 40k equivalent game, I assume the focus would be overwhelmingly on either inquisitors or rogue traders. If space marines appear as PCs it'd be in a support role. Little place in Lovedagger for people whose *sole* qualification is being insanely good fighters. That's what NPCs are for.
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>>61383682
Maybe have archetypes as starting points and the rest as free buy?
Also, lesser focus on combat is the reason I proposed Combat as a single stat, so it doesn't crowd the charsheet
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>>61383682
>>61383776
Wouldn't everyone be courtiers anyway?
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>>61384734
Not necessarily. For a low hanging example look at Disney movies. How many of those "princesses" are actually noble? You could as easily imagine a bodice ripper protagonist that is a nun or a peasant girl or a courtesan, as you would a courtier
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>>61384734
I feel like that would be a bit limiting. The game would be highly social, but flexible enough to work with multiple sub-settings. Kinda like how VtM can be about a lot of things but always has a HUGE emphasis on how you interact with other characters and players.

I think the idea of hyper-simplifying combat is good. Instead of a complex system, you just have

>Close Combat: How good you are at swording.
>Ranged Combat: How good you are at shooting.
>Generalship: How good you are at commanding armies.

Then you can have traits that modify these stats or provide weird bonuses, like if you have the Grail Knight boon your Ranged Combat is always 0 but you get some kind of massive bonus to Close Combat.
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>>61385959
>like if you have the Grail Knight boon your Ranged Combat is always 0 but you get some kind of massive bonus to Close Combat.
>>61385959
>you have the Grail Knight boon your Ranged Combat is always 0 but you get some kind of massive bonus to Close Combat.
Oh yeah, this. No one stops you from playing a man in this world. It's just that women are assumed to be common and all PCs competent
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>>61386078
There'd probably be extensive rules for NPCs becoming attached to the players somehow, as well as for NPC customization. If the assumption is that the party is going to be mostly female players, then you'd want strong mechanical stuff that portrays their relationships with potential love interests and such.

For example, 90% of the time you'd only ever see a Grail Knight as an NPC that a player running a Damsel can use some kind of social mechanics to buff and possibly control.
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>>61386185
Note: a player would be able to become a Grail Knight too, the game would just have mechanics that assume a majority female player/character group.
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>>61386185
>>61386198
Lovedagger specifically permits female grail knights, though. They're rare, but that just means that by the conventions of the genre they'll be the PC's. In Lovedagger, the Lady of the Lake still isn't fooled by appearances, but neither does that mean she judges people by sex. She's looking for chivalry, bravery, all that crap. When the inevitable Joan of Arc expy shows up dressed like a man and sips from the holy grail the Lady is going to grant her superpowers all the same.
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>>61386237
I'm assuming that while the Lady (Ladies? There was talk of turning her into a tripartite goddess) grants the Grail Blessing to women, Bretonnian society is still vert much medieval and it's rare for women to become knights.
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This picture from 4e is pretty Lovedagger
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Bumping for interest.
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>>61386460
Nah, too much Holy Roman Empire, not enough Austro Hungarian chic.
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>>61386334
>Ladies? There was talk of turning her into a tripartite goddess
I thought the tripartite goddess concept was Sigmaria, Lady, Baba Yaga?
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>>61389878
We haven't talked at all about Kislev yet.
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>>61389878
I don't think so. 'Sigmar' is Sigrun in this version. People in previous threads were considering making the Lady more like a Badb/Macha/Anand trio to give Bretonnia more of a pagan feel, and because women seem to be obsessed with triple goddesses.
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bump
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What do we have for Tomb Kings? I think we should keep them male-dominant, though with a significantly higher portion of female pharaohs and important figures, mainly as to play up the potential of them being the "tall dark and handsome noble from a mysterious land" shtick. Play up their foreign nature with a kind of King and I feeling, emphasizing their differences as alluring traits as well as their immortality giving plenty of options for internal conflict and "woe, for I am eternal and cannot be with you and watch you age and die" brooding.

I think lower-level undead should be kitted out in ceramic armor that mimics the human form, making them look human and pretty with the skeleton underneath, while pharaohs and other high-ranking personages have an enchanted shell as part of their necromancy, hiding the undead beneath. That way when they get in a huge dramatic fight, they can take a punch to the face and have their skin flake off to show coal-black, emaciated flesh and wisps of magic.

What do you think? Could also give us a fun angle with them being the more "lawful" equivalents of the vampires, the vampires representing the kind of indulgent "bad boy" byronic noble immortal, whereas the Tomb Kings represent the steadfast, loyal and duty-bound kind of undead.
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>>61394920
>while pharaohs and other high-ranking personages have an enchanted shell as part of their necromancy, hiding the undead beneath. That way when they get in a huge dramatic fight, they can take a punch to the face and have their skin flake off to show coal-black, emaciated flesh and wisps of magic.

This is a great idea. Maybe look into the new edition of Mummy: The Curse for ideas related to this. They do spooky Egyptian corpse people very similarly.
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>>61394920
I think stuff about Space Tomb Kings applies here too:

>Necrons
>Necrons in Lovedagger are like a beautiful and unstoppable horror, majority of them not really people. They aren't hunched Skeletons anymore. Now, they're massive faceless, Deathsteel, statues with the various Lords and Nobles having faces and decorations.
>Lovedagger is about individuals. It doesn't matter if 99.99999% of the race is made up of terminators so long as the nobility are sentient space pharaohs. Especially if you focus on the brooding, self-hating "I have lived for a billion years and saw everything that I love either die or leave, yet this cold necrodermis heart does not beat" shenanigans. There should be space for diverse motivations. Some are ancient kings, loathing their current state and longing for love, some are content with their life and try to make their territory a decent place, that just happens to be controlled by an army of terminators (which is a source of conflict for them), some are operatic villains out to satisfy their avarice, etc. Some times the story shifts to that of individual Necrons warriors who remember only ghosts and bare images of there past lives and being left to search the embers of there memory's for something to keep them going beyond hollow programming.
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>>61394920
>while pharaohs and other high-ranking personages have an enchanted shell as part of their necromancy, hiding the undead beneath.
hot
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>>61386460
That table is goddamn massive
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>>61396043
It’s in the spirit of D&D
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>>61392107
Haven’t we decided to do some copyright dodging renaming and call her Aurore (founder of the Aurosan Empire and the House of Glazfurt)?
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>>61396563
If anyone ever publishes it, sure, she'd be Aurora. For discussion, Sigrun is fine and easier to recognise
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What’s the tech level of Bretonnia again? Still “idealized Middle Ages plus cannons and 18th century galleons in Bordelaux”?
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>>61396972
Seems about right?
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>>61394920
The picture looks exactly like I imagine some noble might in Lovedagger 40K (obviously, the left part of the body wouldn't be clearly visible, maybe you'd only see the glowing green eyes and some glowing veins under the skin, but you could imagine this picture is "half cut" to show her nano-augmentations)
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Silly question, but what's the color scheme of the Lovedagger Empire? What about the Lovedagger 40k Imperia? guys Imperia isn't the feminine form of imperium, it's the plural
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>>61396563
>>61396645
...Why? GW cannot copyright the name Sigrun, it's a real life name. Nor can they claim to own the idea of a vaguely Germanic empire. This is the entire reason why the Empire no longer exists and Age of Sigmar is an unholy mess of Krakenfall Draggershard Bloodsecrators.
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>>61400076
Trust me, you don't want to get in legal murky waters with GW. They can't copyright "pseudo-Germanic empire" but they can make a lot of claims about "derivative works" and "plagiarism" and all kinds of nasty shit like that if they can prove sufficient similarity (it's the reason that anyone can write about kids going to wizardry schools if they want, but if you try to publish your totally original book about boy wizard with a mystical cloud shaped forehead scar Larry Trotter and the Thaumaturgist's Rock, going on magical adventures in Toadboils School for Cantrips and Conjuration with his buddies Ronda and Hermann, you get sued). Granted, they most likely won't give a shit if you don't make money off of it, but if you do, you might get in trouble.
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>>61400174
>Granted, they most likely won't give a shit if you don't make money off of it
Pretty sure they've CoD'd plenty of fan projects that didn't make any and had no plans for doing so
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>>61400075
What are they in normal WH? Empire is maybe red and gold, Imperium... I'm drawing a blank, it's too disjointed.

I'd imagine red should be around, because roses. Maybe both red and white.
Not sure about gold. There's nothing wrong with it, really. Maybe white is silver instead
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>>61400279
Empire is red and white. Imperium is indeed too disjointed. Many people think of it as having a red color scheme because that's what the Blood Ravens use, and they've become somewhat iconic among casual fans for obvious reasons (it's also the color of the AdMech, so it gets further credence) but otherwise it's hard to say. Each SM chapter has its own color schem, Imperial Guard are generally green-black, Inquisitors are black, etc.

Interestingly, red and white happen to be the colors of the flag of Austria, but the Austro Hungarian Empire which we're basing this off used the yellow and black flag of the Habsburg family.
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This brings up an interesting question, assuming we might indeed be interested in (at least for a version of this concept) creating an original setting: the Austro Hungarian Empire stretched over a number of cultures other than the strictly Germanic. Does the setting have a country or a people or a faction or whatever standing for, say, Hungary? The Czech Republic? Poland?
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>>61400376
Maybe white rose symbolises Sigrun/Aurora. And the red rose symbolises her killing her husband. The coat of arms of her descendands would then be a white rose with its petals red on the outer halves
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>>61400493
Those would be probably represented by regions of the Empire. Just like in WHF, the regions are supposed to have wildly different cultures, it's just less remembered on the scale WFB operated at
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>>61400493
>>61400526
Its Geography is also somewhat different from that of Germany. Lots more mountains, less crisscrossing rivers.
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>>61400554
The Empire is already Austro-Hungary you brainlet
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>>61400554
Why's "Geography" capitalized?
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>>61402857
Maybe he's German.
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>>61404514
Is "Geography" a German name?
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>>61405405
No, but all nouns in German are capitalized and this becomes a habit for native speakers that leaks over into other languages.
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has anyone been putting any of this to writing?
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>>61406951
Not really, since most of this thread is a bunch of ideas. I think the only bit there was no quibbling about was that Empire is Austro-Hungarian now
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>>61400504
Shite. That's a bit too close to the Tudor rose. I thought it was the other way around. Any ideas?
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>>61409713
red thorns around a white rose
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>>61409943
That sounds pretty great, actually
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Okay, before this thread slides into oblivion. Which ideas do you like here and think they're worth preserving?
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>>61413133
Personal list:
Slight tech upgrade
Moon magic
Bretonnia as tradition vs enlightenment
Red thorned white rose as Imperial coat of arms

Simplified WoD as system
Pendragon virtues
Need for companionship rules
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Didn't like the Bretonnia change as much. If anything, I think they need to be teched down a notch to balance out the Empire (with or without taking Bordelaux' fleet with them).
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>>61414211
They're already just about the worst tech-wise in Warhammer. What's there to tech down? Getting rid of plate mail?
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>>61415107
Maybe give them a more dark ages, Game of Thrones style aesthetic. Lots of fur everywhere. Everyone has a beard. Celtic jewelry galore.
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>>61415232
Then it loses its idealistic "knights in shining armour" aesthetic. Which, I'd argue, is the whole point of the place. Well, that and oppressed peasants
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>>61415232
Oh, and what you propose is pretty much less evil Norsca. Which is not a bad thing if we get rid of "all chaos all the time" element of everything east of the Empire
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How about Ogre Kingdoms?
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>>61416848
"Noble savages"
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>>61416848
Honestly the Ogre Kingdoms are in kind of a weird spot. They're so antithetical to the refinement and general feel of Lovedagger that I almost want to say we should cut them, but at the same time they might work really well as a truly antagonistic force. So much of their existing characterization and culture paints them as basically everything against the romance novel aesthetic, what with the gluttony, unattractiveness, wanton brutality, and just general grotesqueness of them. Despite this, I think they should be in here somewhere, because they're a great army and really fun, they're just tricky.

I think if we do include the Ogre Kingdoms in any aspect, we'll need to rework a lot of their aesthetic. Perhaps they should fit more of the kind of "primal wildman" characterization, a creature driven entirely by their own brute passions? Almost more like Oni in a way, maybe. Considering some of the vaguely Mongol stylings the original Ogre Kingdoms had, it might be worth leaning them a bit further in that direction, at least to compensate for having to remove a lot of their traits that wouldn't play to a female-oriented design.
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>>61418735
Are there female ogres in Warhammer? How do they reproduce?
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>>61419824
As far as we can tell, they have them, they're just very much not the focus of anything. Ogre society is super-heavily Might Makes Right, and if there are female ogres, they're probably barely dimorphous from male ogres in regular Warhammer.
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>>61418735
Wasn't there talk of replacing them with Norse mythology style trolls, where the kids are magical tricksters, the young women are beautiful, the men are huge and live in cottages in the woods and the women are wrinkly witches?
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>>61423868
Wouldn't those replace, you know, the trolls?
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>>61427008
Not necessarily. "Troll" is just a name that doesn't mean much




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