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Absolute fucking state of the Horde edition

Discuss the lore and story of the Warcraft franchise and its application in and around traditional games.

>Document compendium: Contains official (ex-canon) DnD 3.x variants and a fan made DnD 5e version! Also contains the official Warcraft Chronicles volumes 1 and 2. Also Liadrin is best girl.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B52pEESRLwfBM3V0Sm5NTlBITlk

Previous thread: >>61301057
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Rodgers was right. Rodgers is always right. Nuke the Horde.
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>>61351835
I have been out of the loop for like a decade. Did this really happen? Did the racial barriers break down so much that an orc faction joined the alliance, or is it just a mock up?
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>>61351916
They finally broke him
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>>61351891
Rodgers should take command of Jaina's flying ship. She, Genn and Jaina can then go on magic-feueled genocidal adventures.
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>>61351916
He is currently supremely pissed at the Horde warchief at the moment and has been captured. All I know is given the chance to escape being an Alliance prisoner, he decided to go talk to the Alliance king instead.

I think he is part of recruiting the Mag'har, but don't know if that is before or after.
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>>61351916
It's a mockup and isn't real. What is real is that Saurfang is captured as a prisoner of war at the end of the Battle of Lordaeron after Sylvanas abandons him and his honor. When you sneak into Stormwind and find him again in the Stockades, he pulls the #NotMyWarchief card and refuses to acknowledge Sylvanas as the Warchief of his Horde. He doesn't want to go back, and at the moment, he's petitioning for an audience with Anduin himself.

>>61352061
Saurfang in the Stockades is part of recruiting the Zandalari, since you inadvertantly find a couple Zandalari bigwigs in prison as well.
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>>61351916
>>61352119
Although, if you haven't been paying attention for the past decade, you've missed a lot. When was the last time you played/kept up?
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>>61352231
A decade ago, I imagine.
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>>61352231
Middle of Wrath, after Ulduar I think. I'm completely lost after that point.
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>>61352061
>I think he is part of recruiting the Mag'har, but don't know if that is before or after.
Nah that's all Eitrigg.
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Tfw can finally RP as a dragonmaw orc
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>>61353320
Than stop. Stop right where you are. It's all downhill after Wrath. They've had some decent world building since then, and a few legitimately great questlines, but the main plot has just gotten worse and worse. For fuck's sake, they're practically copying the start of CATACLYSM at this point. For reference... That's like someone taking cues from The Last Jedi
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>>61353320
Hoo boy. Here's the Cliffnotes version.
>Icecrown Citadel
Varian is suddenly no longer a shithead, Arthas is killed, but since "there must always be a Lich King," Bolvar Fordragon (who survived the Wrathgate debacle thanks to red dragon fire) becomes the new Lich King as a jailor of the damned.
>Catclysm
Deathwing smashes into Azeroth out of the Maelstrom in what's known as the Shattering and causes havoc across the world along with the Twilight's Hammer cult. Thrall steps down as Warchief to become the World Shaman to stop Deathwing, passing leadership to Garrosh Hellscream, who immediately begins running the Horde into the ground with his schizophrenic characterization. Cairne Bloodhoof dies in a duel against Garrosh, and Vol'jin is kicked out of Orgrimmar due to disagreements. The Bilgewater Cartel of goblins formally join the Horde. Gilneas rejoins the Alliance, though its people are afflicted with the worgen curse. Varian Wrynn becomes the paragon of the Alliance. Ultimately, Deathwing is defeated with the Dragon Soul, at the cost of the Dragon Aspects sacrificing their power and almighty position.

>Mists of Pandaria
Pandaria is discovered, and pandaren are free to join either the Alliance or the Horde. War breaks out between the two factions. Varian embraces his position as High King of the Alliance. Garrosh Hellscream, with his non-orc racism and rampant bloodlust, becomes the ultimate tyrant, whose atrocities include nuking Theramore with a mana bomb, which breaks Jaina on a fundamental level and turns her into arguably the Alliance's biggest warhawk. Garrosh destabilizes the Horde so much that it falls into a civil war. The Alliance and Vol'jin's Darkspear Rebellion team up, siege Orgrimmar and forcefully depose Garrosh as Warchief. While Garrosh is arrested and hauled off to stand trial in Pandaria, Vol'jin is installed as Warchief, and Varian spares the Horde any further humiliation.
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>>61353887
>Warlords of Draenor
Garrosh escapes prison, and with the help of a renegade bronze dragon, escapes into an alternate timeline of Draenor, where he attempts to rally the orcs he finds against prime Azeroth. This expansion is a fucking mess and will thus be completely glossed over. The only thing you really need to know is that Garrosh is finally killed by Thrall, and alternate Gul'dan is a thing.

>Legion
Alternate Gul'dan escapes into prime Azeroth and opens the Tomb of Sargeras, allowing the Burning Legion to invade Azeroth in force for the third time. The Alliance and Horde attempt to counterattack at the Broken Shore, but they get rocked by the demons, leading to Varian's and Vol'jin's deaths. Anduin Wrynn is installed as the new King of Stormwind and High King of the Alliance, and Vol'jin uses his dying words to name Sylvanas the new Warchief. With the Alliance and Horde in no condition to repel the Legion, individual class orders like the Earthen Ring, Cenarion Circle, Order of the Silver Hand and others pick up the slack and take the fight to the Legion in their own ways. Illidan comes back from his coma and leads the fight against the Legion. Eventually, they push the Legion back to Argus, and the expansion ends with Sargeras himself imprisoned along with the rest of the Titans (but not without stabbing Azeroth with his giant sword to wound it), and Illidan as his jailor. The Burning Legion is defeated once and for all.

>Battle for Azeroth
The wound left by Sargeras on Azeroth causes the sprouting of azerite, the crystallized blood of Azeroth, effectively a crystalline form of the Well of Eternity. The Alliance and the Horde both have need to control it. One thing leads to another, and now the Alliance and Horde are at total war. Kul Tiras (Alliance) and the Zandalari trolls (Horde) get involved. Major bullet points of the war up to this point include Sylvanas razing Teldrassil to the ground and Anduin retaking Lordaeron at great cost.
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>>61353887
>>61353903
And that's currently where we stand. It's been a rough several years, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
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>>61353903
>This expansion is a fucking mess and will thus be completely glossed over.

As true as it is, the real insult here is how good WoD could have been.
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>>61353903
>>61355062
WoD wasn't that terrible, it was just pointless because lol time travel. The important thing to take away from it is that all of the factions are becoming increasingly more bellicose because of constant fighting and tensions. By the end of WoD, Jaina is such a jinghoist warmonger running on a "WE WUZ VICTIMS" mindset that if she doesn't end up as a major antagonist and eventual raid boss during BFA, I'll personally sue Blizzard for failure to deliver on agreed upon services.
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>>61355251
>it was just pointless because lol time travel.

It delivered what it was supposed to, that being bringing Gul'dan back into the fold. It's everything else that they dropped the ball on. I won't even get in to the two raid tiers thing and garrisons.

They hyped up the Iron Horde as some incredible threat to Azeroth, but we dealt with them in less than a patch. What's worse, the Iron Horde had more screen time than a ton of other elements that were arguably more interesting, such as the arakkoa, or the Zangar Encroachment, or shit, the Shadowmoon clan or Karabor and Shattrath and Auchindoun. Even the fucking time travel wasn't fully addressed.

I have a pretty clear idea of what should have happened in that expansion but it more than surpasses the 2k character limit.
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>>61355775
The questing in WoD was really fucking good, and the characters and lore were getting interesting. But what really fucked the expansion over was the complete removal of a raid tier (which would have been Shattrath, and was supposed to expand more on the Frostwolf clan and Yrel's leadership of the draenei after Velen sacrificed himself). They cleaved everything that was supposed to be the 2nd raid tier so they could start the work on Legion. Which really did a massive disservice to players and AU Draenor. We even lost out on Faralon/Netherstorm.

The reason why WoD sucked was because half the expansion was killed so they could make Legion really good, which they did. It just really fucking sucked that we lost out on so much stuff because of it.

Good news is that AU Draenor is going to be coming back into the storyline as the AU Draenei are purging the shit out of the horde, and the AU orcs are going to join the Horde.

its unfortunate that us Prime Draenei cant help in the purging of the non-believers. LUX VULT
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>>61356421
>the AU Draenei are purging the shit out of the horde, and the AU orcs are going to join the Horde
More specifically, Yrel and the draenei are forcefully converting the Maghar orcs to the Light against their will on naaru orders, so the survivors escape to prime Azeroth before Yrel can ILLUMINATE them.
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>>61355775
Fuck it, I'm posting it.

>Garrosh, Kairozdormu, and Wrathion use the Hourglass to transport them, a few orc loyalists, goblin mercenaries, and Black Talon agents to AU Draenor.
>Kairozdormu, rather being an infinite aspirant or whatever, is a true ally of Wrathion's. Also, Garrosh doesn't kill him immediately.
>The three of them work to establish the Iron Horde.
>Once most of the orc clans are brought together, they wage a short-lived war against the ogres, ending in an Iron Horde victory due to technology and weaponized breakers.
>Conquering the ogres gives the Iron Horde access to their knowledge of the arcane, which gives them the power needed to open a portal large and stable enough for their needs.
>Kairoz and Wrathion realize that Garrosh is still a warmonger, despite the knowledge that he possesses, and that he intends to simply conquer Azeroth, ironically leaving it more vulnerable to the Legion.
>Unbeknownst to Garrosh, Kairoz and Wrathion are able to reach Khadgar and implore him to appeal to the two factions on Azeroth, as he is the only one friendly enough with both sides.
>Garrosh catches wind and orders the two dragons killed. Kairoz falls, but Wrathion and his Black Talon agents slip away.
>The invasion of Azeroth begins, this time without using the Dark Portal, and instead tearing a portal through space and time in multiple locations. This is effectively the pre-patch.
>MU Horde and Alliance champions push the Iron Horde back and work to close their portals, cutting them off from Azeroth, but trapping them in AU Draenor.
>Players still align themselves with the Frostwolves and draenei, but do not establish garrisons. Instead, Warspear and Stormshield are the faction hubs. The idea is that they are cut off from support from Azeroth, which justifies their reliance on the AU natives.

1/4
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>>61356494
>Players deal with the immediate threats first, such as hampering the Iron Horde's supply lines in Gorgrond, dealing with the arakkoa and the Sunspire, and breaking the siege of Auchindoun, before moving to Nagrand.
>There, they discover that the ogres had unearthed a powerful artifact, and that's what supplied the fuel needed to open the portals.
>By raiding Highmaul, the Horde and Alliance champions hope to claim the artifact, preventing the Iron Horde from opening portals in the future.
>During the battle of Highmaul, matters are complicated when the Shadow Council decides to make a move. Gul'dan and Cho'gal are introduced at this time, with Cho'gal serving as the mythic-only final boss of Highmaul.
>The artifact is revealed to be of Titan origin, and Khadgar is quite interested at the implications.
>Meanwhile, the use of the Hourglass has caused temporal anomalies all around Draenor, which also concerns Khadgar. These disruptions form the basis of the Legendary ring quests.
>Deprived of their magic, the Iron Horde shifts their focus to a) eliminating these invaders, and b) securing the means to open more portals.
>To this end, the Blackrock Foundry is expanded, and begins producing far more weapons and vehicles than before.
>Blackrock Foundry is a good raid, so it gets to stay the same, except for the fact that Blackhand doesn't die.

2/4
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>>61355775
Some of the stuff that wouldn't have taken any more work (even less in some places) to make the time travel make sense is have the entrance be that chronal spire shit in Kharazan rather than the Dark Portal, replace those Rylak mounts with Infinite Drakes, and actually have the Infinites show up in Nagrand for Garrosh's story.
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>>61356511
>In Talador, with the Iron Horde thwarted, the Shadowmoon clan and the Shadow Council work together to bring the draenei to heel, and taint the souls within Auchindoun.
>The Iron Horde has been left reeling from their defeat at Highmaul, giving the Horde and the Alliance a chance to focus on this immediate threat.
>Within Auchindoun, players face off against Ner'zhul and Gul'dan's forces, augmented by the Sargerei and their demons and machinations.
>Ultimately, the players are able to defeat Ner'zhul and Teron'gor and purify K'ure, but Gul'dan is able to lay claim to the draenei souls.
>Meanwhile, through the Legendary questline, Khadgar and Gul'dan face off and exchange some words, and Gul'dan reveals that he knows all about the time fuckery and Azeroth. He warns him that he intends for history to repeat itself, and promises that it'll be so much worse this time.
>Gul'dan approaches the Iron Horde leadership - the Hellscreams and Blackhand - and offers them the demon's blood. Grom listens to Garrosh when he warns of what will happen, but Blackhand doesn't, citing that they've lost their foundry and the Titan artifact, and imbides the blood.
>The Iron Horde experiences a schism, with many orcs choosing to drink the blood as well, and others resisting.
>Grom and Garrosh are imprisoned, and the grand fortress in Tanaan is claimed by Blackhand, Gul'dan, and the fel orcs. Hellfire Citadel is born.

3/4
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>>61356524
>The heroes of Azeroth and their allies arrive in Tanaan, and find themselves as the awkward third wheel in a very one-sided war between the fel orcs and the remnants of the Iron Horde.
>What's worse, they discover the construction of a new Dark Portal, and that orcish warlocks have tainted the jungle beyond repair.
>The temporal anomalies are becoming even worse, causing tears in reality that allow the Void to leak through.
>With little time remaining, the heroes of Azeroth invade Hellfire Citadel, killing what remains of the orcish leadership and contending with the encroaching Void, before ultimately facing Mannoroth at the foot of the Dark Portal.
>With Mannoroth dead, Gul'dan escapes into the Nether, content to "let this world devour itself." Using the unstable Dark Portal, Khadgar is able to transport the heroes back to MU Azeroth. The expansion leaves off on a sour note, with Khadgar lamenting the fate of Draenor and its inhabitants, Gul'dan's escape, and the inevitable return of the Legion.

Fin/4
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>>61356469
Considering in every single timeline, the horde cant stop themselves from trying to genocide people, is it really such a bad thing?

Also a couple other things from AU draenor, there was going to be more ocean area to fight in (including a fungal whale world boss), and there was Farallon/Netherstorm, and to the Southwest was another continent which is where the Ogres come from.

its also inferred that Yrel was the daughter of Archimonde, which might explain some things about her
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>horde fans writing up long ass explainations to justify Sylvanas' actions
>she's using real politk
>she actually cares deeply about the horde
>she's holding her oath to vol'jin about defending the horde
>she knows anduin the aggressively peace seeking king will declare war soon
>she wants to stop the alliance from transporting azerite from landlocked silithus to darnassus despite the alliance having no foothold on mainland kalimdor outside of the north and lacking any kind of azerite mining operation after the goblin teams killed the survey team
Why do people do this? Why can't Sylvanas just be the character she's been the last decade; a self-serving banshee to whom everyone else is a tool for her continued war of vengeance and now survival?
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>>61356780
>she wants to stop the alliance from transporting azerite
But that's literally the reason Sylvanas cites. Occupying Teldrassil cuts off the flow of Azerite to the Alliance.
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>>61356780
Because some of the people that are saying that are on the WoW write staff and think that Sylvanas is nuanced and DEEP and not just a manipulative, villainous piece of shit
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>>61356874
Sylvanas' war is one of annihilation; she's said as much several times, and is always eager to annihilate a population center.

>>61356879
And I like her as the manipulative, villainous piece of shit. Hers is a story about becoming the thing you hated; she's negative emotions personified and has been from the start. She never had genuine motivations outside of vengeance, and after that was done she had nothing left to drive her forward but her survival (after seeing where she'd end up after death).
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>>61357033
She's better as a straight up villain for the reasons you've stated. It's a little late to try dialing in on the feels considering the lament of the highborne schtick was like a decade ago and she's spent all of WoW since then being a baddie.

That said, I'm kinda hoping the swerve leads to Saurfang or literally anyone else taking over as Warchief. Even Lor'themar the forgotten faction leader would be better at this point since not fucking everyone hates him.
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>>61357223
But she clearly knows enough about love to want to smash with Nathanos, considering he's basically her #1.
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>>61357223
I think Baine as Warchief would be fitting if they want to push a friendlier expansion after this; they've already loosened up the faction divide with elf, demon hunter and pandaren communication. And now GMs are approving an add-on that lets roleplayers communicate cross-faction.
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>>61357306
People don't want Baine because he's a dirty human lover.

People still want to do war with the Alliance, they just don't want Sylvanas to be the bad guy in it all and want to see the Alliance doing the extremes rather than the reactions.
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>>61357306
Baine is really the only honorable choice for the next warchief. Saurfang is getting REALLY fucking old, and can act as an advisor to baine. And Baine already has a good history with Anduin. And really the only link between the old/new blood horde.

Baine has the respect of his people, the alliance and the players.


Also I am really liking the parallels between logash/genn and varian/anduin.
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>>61355251
>By the end of WoD, Jaina is such a jinghoist warmonger running on a "WE WUZ VICTIMS" mindset that if she doesn't end up as a major antagonist and eventual raid boss during BFA, I'll personally sue Blizzard for failure to deliver on agreed upon services.
Sorry triggered Hordebaby. Genn, Jaina and Rodgers are right. The Horde all need to be taken out back and shot for their constant genocidal actions. This thing with Sylvanas is just the newest chapter to a growing book of Horde violence that rarely gets the retribution it should. And no amount of "Horde are really people of peace!" and "Why are the Alliance such racist assholes!" bullshit is going to erase that. Enjoy the upcoming SoO 2.0.
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>>61357877
>Enjoy the upcoming SoO 2.0.
And Like SoO, the Alliance will bleed to help the Horde return to a position of strength, the peak of their victory being a collection of threats they'll never ever deliver on.
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>>61357877
>Horde genocides draenei
>Horde invades azeroth and attempts to genocide the humans
>Horde gets their asses kicked, and eventually put into internment camps (instead of being genocided)
>Horde then gets together again and goes to war with the humans/alliance again, is saved because jaina wants that green dick
>Garrosh nukes the shit out of Theramore, Sylvanas invades and blights/wmd's gilnaes
>AU Draenor orcs genocide the draenei again
>Sylvanas burns down Teldrassil, WMD's her own troops and her enemies in lordaeron

>BUT MUH HORDE IS HONORABLE
The horde has NEVER been fucking honorable, and need to be wiped the fuck out after everything they have done and KEPT doing. And the history of the trolls aint much better either.
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>>61357359
>People still want to do war with the Alliance, they just don't want Sylvanas to be the bad guy in it all
This. I liked the Cata Garrosh in Stormtalon, but what he becomes in MoP basically becomes a caricature of what he could've been.

>>61357374
Fuck Baine.
Nazgrel's been chilling a while in Thrallmar, bring him out of retirement. The Horde needs an orc warchief.
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>>61357374
Legion and BfA pushed me away from having characters on both factions (my oldest character being a 110 orc from like 2007) to just playing my alliance priest. As a non-forsaken player I feel like I'm getting fucking memed into doing dumb shit for the sake of it, and the most I can do to object is put on a gasmask and heal horde troops gassed by our own warchief. Darkspear Rebellion 2.0 can't come soon enough, though I doubt it'll pull me from the faction that still feels like it has something to fight for and protect. There's also the amusing fact that the Alliance has done fuckall but lose settlements since Cataclysm, be it to the disaster itself or associated horde warfare: Theramore, Southshore, Gilneas, Hillsbrad Fields, Andorhal (contested; horde won), and all of the core nelven lands outside of Feathermoon Stronghold 2.0.

Honestly, it's like they're actively pushing me towards a Scarlet Crusade-tier attitude.
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>>61358229
>here's also the amusing fact that the Alliance has done fuckall but lose settlements since Cataclysm, be it to the disaster itself or associated horde warfare: Theramore, Southshore, Gilneas, Hillsbrad Fields, Andorhal (contested; horde won), and all of the core nelven lands outside of Feathermoon Stronghold 2.0.

And thats why Alliance players have been bitching for YEARS about the horde favoritism.
The 1 fucking territory the alliance takes is Tarujo (and the alliance lets the tauren flee) and then Garrosh fucking nukes theramore. The alliance has lost 3 fucking capitals now (Gilnaes, Theramore, Teldrassil) and the Alliance has NOTHING. The alliance has shown mercy and restraint for fucking decades only to have its hand bitten.

Fuck the horde, fuck the Horde bias, and fuck the horde some more. The alliance has a fucking weaponized space ship. We have a fucking magical flying MAN-O-WAR controlled by one of the most powerful mages in warcraft, and we have Lightforged weapons and technology.

LUX fucking VULT!
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>>61357972
I know it has to be this way since the game has to have some kinda status quo, but for fuck's sake I wish the Alliance would just pull the trigger and end it all already.

It has gotten to the point with the points >>61357994
brings up that the Alliance is justified in just about any action it takes, since the Horde can't keep it together long enough to not fuck up and cause some awful shit to happen. By now it's been what, forty years almost of the Horde just stomping around, and 15 since they saw any real consequences of it due to WoW's faction dynamics.
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>>61358334
Honestly I fully expect the Alliance/Saurfang rebellion to win and then have someone on the alliance side go into business for themselves and get Baine, Lor'themar or Liadrin Killed along with a Nathanos or other Sylvanas loyalist. I don't think they can just copy the ending of Siege, but certainly Anduin will try.
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I support Sylvanas and oh boy after the battle of Lordaeron things are sure heating up.

Also the last convo between Sylvanas and Saurfang god damn Sylvanas is savage.

And lastly if Deus-ex Jaina didn't happened Alliance was fucked. They had no proper plan other than attack and Alleria join at some point. They had no contingency for if Sylvanas used blight in the defense which why the hell wouldn't they think she would use it?? If Jaina didn't show up Alliance wouldn't have even made it inside the city but alas it was a fun battle, good cinematics (loved the parallels between now and W3), and interesting story progression. Can't wait for more!
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>>61353887
>While Garrosh is arrested and hauled off to stand trial in Pandaria, Vol'jin is installed as Warchief, and Varian spares the Horde any further humiliation.
The fuck? How did the Alliance not end the Horde right there? All I know is that the Alliance has been shit on by the Horde so many times, sometimes excused as a "rogue faction". Ultimately it takes only 3 magic words to make all atrocities OK. "For the Horde."
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>>61358705
They had no plan or contingency because the writers intended for Jaina to solve every issue they encountered, because it looks cool, and to let Sylvanas look like a bad bitch despite her plan being painfully obvious to anyone who's observed her tactics since Cata was released.

It's just shit, one-sided writing.
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>>61358727
Because the Alliance seemingly exists for the Horde to wage war on so that people get their beloved faction conflict, then the Alliance has to not retaliate properly and effectively forgive the Horde to fight off whatever big bad's next. It's the eternal cycle of Warcraft, and not even after 14 years are the humans allowed to have Lordaeron back.
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>>61358727
>How did the Alliance not end the Horde right there?
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>>61358733
unfortunately true. Writing Sylvanas to be a Cartoon Villain and the Alliance to look like bumbling military idiots.
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>>61358705
That cinematic at Lordaeron was cringy as fuck.
>let the queen do her villain speech
>chastise my loyal followers for expressing emotions
>I don't blame you I blame me
>let her calmly walk up face to face instead of immediately arresting her
>not firing or casting spells or preparing anything in case of escape or schemes

It's like Blizzard goes out of their way to show how neutered the Alliance is.
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>>61357994
>The horde has NEVER been fucking honorable, and need to be wiped the fuck out after everything they have done and KEPT doing.
My favorite thing about WoD is that it shows the Horde didn't even need demon blood before it started to mass murder Dranei. They just need any sort of advantage and it's fucking genocide time on all their neighbors. This idea that they're really some sort of peaceful shamanistic people is the biggest meme.
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>>61358705
I think they're toying with some interesting ideas here. Sylvanas's plans are definitely better than Anduin's way of doing things in the short term, but we know she's not going to win because she plans to genocide Stormwind. However, that plan for total extermination, and the realization that Sylvanas probably won't be spared either if the Horde loses, is what makes her tactics even workable.

Saurfang's way of doing things is actually better if the goal is to push the other side into peaceful surrender or to receive better treatment should the war be lost. What Sylvanas does renders a peaceful ending all but impossible. That's why there's actually value in the kind of honor Saurfang likes. It allows for mercy and a sort of mutual understanding not to push things too far or cross certain lines. Sylvanas's way forces the stakes to be "victory or death" for both sides, or should if Anduin wasn't so nice.

And that's where the different philosophies towards war come up again. Anduin is foolishly trying to fight an honorable war against a dishonorable opponent who isn't looking to return the favor. By doing so, he's beating Sylvanas when it comes to morale and trust in his ideals, but he's losing every engagement where someone doesn't swoop in to save his ass.
>>61358807
>It's like Blizzard goes out of their way to show how neutered the Alliance is.
They are. Here are some quotes.
>...as well as how much of the retribution is Anduin proving his manhood.
>Nor will Anduin's Lordaeron's attacks be done for justice. Frankly, it is meant to show the king's dignity.
Anduin is still more putting on a show of being a good king than he is fighting the kind of war he needs to fight against Sylvanas, and it's screwing him over. Acting like the bigger man won't help him here, because he's going against someone who doesn't give a fuck.
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>>61358895
Fuck the horde and fuck the alliance. I was mad enough about all the injustices against Illidan. I wish I could've joined a better faction like the scarlet crusade.
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>>61358971
Honestly the fact that there wasn't any kind of clapback conversation between Illidan and Malfurion in Legion has always bothered me, because despite being a bit more mellowed out, Illidan would have absolutely taken a moment to be a petty slut and shown Malfurion what the fuck was up in front of Tyrande before going off to the big battles.
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>>61359007
Tyrande is a manipulative bitch though.
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>>61358971
Of course, they're both shit right now because Blizzard is being "clever". They're dropping Warcraft III parallels to probably say something pretentious about it all. That's why Saurfang's video thumbnail mirrors the Warcraft III Orc portrait, which is probably Grom. That's also why Saurfang has the exact same tooth piercings, earrings, and nose ring as WoD Grom.

Saurfang is a reflection on Grom, seeking the same end as Grom, just as Anduin is being blatantly compared to Arthas. Where exactly they're going with this will probably be stupid as fuck.
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>>61356780
>Why do people do this?

They invest too much of themselves in their characters and so the Horde. Therefore the Horde can do no wrong.
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>>61358895
>Sylvanas's plans are definitely better than Anduin's way of doing things in the short term

Not really. She has one trick, that being blight. The Alliance have a clearly shown ability to defeat it whenever it becomes relevant to the plot as well.
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>>61360708
well they were expecting SOME blight, though its safe to say they werent expecting Sylv to fucking gas her own capital and her own troops en mass and leave Saurfang to be captured.

The Alliance isnt used to someone who is willing to use total war/MAD tactics on 2 major cities.
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>>61351916
I wish you could say that. More like a part of the Orcs and Tauren have become so sick over the current leadership they've in essence mutinied: they're not technically "helping" the Alliance, but they're using PoW as an excuse to not help Sylvanas, who has become the current warchief.

Though now that you mention it, a faction of Orcs HAS joined the Alliance via being touched by the light.
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>>61357994
>>61358889
The Orcs, and let's not go confusing the Horde with the Orcs as a species here, were pretty savage fuckers, but they generally trended towards being slightly lesser assholes than the other peoples of Draenor. That obviously isn't saying much, and varies wildly from clan to clan, but I argue that without someone selling them on bullshit be it Gul'dan or Garrosh the Orcs wouldn't have developed the outright cancerous cultural institution that is the Horde.

And by that I mean that the (demon-created!) concept of the Horde, the trappings of its' leaders, the practices of its' soldiers, and the actions of its' warriors have polluted and nearly drowned the original, somewhat less dickish Orcish cultures beneath at least two generations of dumb bullshit. The best chance the Orcs had to throw off the Horde's legacy in favor of either the older ways or new ones was under Thrall, but the dude idolized Doomhammer and pals way too much to do that. So a new generation of Orcs was born, raised, and trained under the banner of a New Horde, which didn't meaningfully distance itself from the Old Horde, leading the Orcs to just sort of accept the idea of a Horde as "the way things are supposed to be" and to gloss over the crimes of the Old Horde.
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>people are STILL engaging in faction shit-flinging

What's even the point of making these threads?
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>>61357994
Friendly reminder that the effect of the demons blood had literally nothing to do with the 2nd war and the 2nd war was led by an orc supramacist that reveled in the screams of the suvivors in Stormwinds left behind whilst he drank a goblet of wine stained by blood.
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>>61356421
>>61356469
I can't help but think the WoD AU should have been sealed off at the end of WoD. Let us revisit Outland in a revised Cataclysm type way and could have had those Mag'har (which should have joined the Horde a decade ago) and the mutant dranei.
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if BFA doesn't end with RvB being done for good i'm going to fucking kill myself
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>>61360708
>The Alliance have a clearly shown ability to defeat it whenever it becomes relevant to the plot as well.
Jaina wasn't invited. Anduin died that day, if not for a miracle. I'm not saying that Sylvanas is smart, but her plans rely less on luck. Her way of doing things will inevitably screw herself over, but Anduin can't expect to get lucky every time.
>>61361293
Is that the current lore? I thought the current Doomhammer was just continuing the war because he still thought the Orcs needed a new world, and didn't much give a shit about humans one way or the other.
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>>61361293
Yes, Doomhammer was really in the right head space when he told Gul'dan, the guy he knows is a sneaky warlock asshole, to take the corpses of Stormwind knights and make them into Death Knights.
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>>61356780
In the "A Good War" fiction, Sylvanas gives a not-unreasonable rationale for the war, enough to convince Saurfang.

Though it is complicated by the fact that after Magni showed up, *no one* should be mining Azerite, and there should be a long queue of Cenarion and Earthen Ring and similar knocking on her door say "plz stahp".
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>>61361516
The Death Knights actually turned out to be loyal to the Horde.
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>>61361418
It does, anon. The old gods come, and the factions are at long last convinced to work together, defeat them, and finally put aside their differences thanks to the wise words and diplomacy of a newly-revived Hogger.
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>>61357359
I'm close to just wanting the Tauren to leave the Horde and anyone who wants to behave like a reasonable person can come live with them.
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>>61361527
Does the Cenarion Circle just throw its hands up and withdraw from the Horde entierly? I can't see them sticking with the Horde after the events that transpired.
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>>61361566
he would probably be a better leader than sylvanas anyways
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>>61357994
Wish there were more busty harpies.

Used to look up their skirts all the time during vanilla.
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>>61361599
That Bellugar youtube person said "Sylvanas sent all the Cenarion Horde members to Silithus" for the attack on Darnasus, but I can't find a source on that.

How much sense that makes since they should REEEE at Silithus as well, I don't know.
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>>61351835
This game died after LK
I know...it`s hard to let something go (we all had friendos during those glorious days and i used to fight hours from goldshire to crossroads) but you/we must....this is my last expansion, the peter pan stuff and the one piece devil fruit user wrecked my patience
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>>61361509
Yeah I know there's lots of shitposting but that's a fact, Ogrim wasn't posessed or controlled by any demon. The novel never portrayed him as posessed by blood - infact I've very rarely seen it mentioned other than it making them hulk out in WC3 - it was made plainly clear he was doing what he did to secure a future for his people. Since Metzen stated that the characters in the novel are cannon I've always judged them by that, he's orc hitler but not incompetent like Garrosh.
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>>61351835
Why is the game so fucking dumbed down now? Why are glyphs just shitty cosmetic effects now? Why can't I pick my own talents now? Why are there now only three meme stats to choose from now? Why is the story so fucking bad? Why doesn't my personal mole machine take me to the Grim Guzzler anymore?

Resubbing was a mistake.
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>>61361684
>he's orc hitler but not incompetent like Garrosh.
Is he Orc Hitler? He was willing to spare Alterac. I think Orgrim was more just a traditional conqueror without any particular ideology except that he needed better land and someone else had it. Far less of a monster than most Orcs would be, I wouldn't even consider him a war criminal in the current lore, but still a deadly foe leading an army of blood-raging lunatics.
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There's no way to switch out Sylvanas at this point from Warchief. The Alliance probably doesn't want to talk to anyone of them who feel like Sylvanas needs to be dethroned. And the ones that are are much too scared that the Alliance will kill them on sight with how pissed they are. Not to mention what Sylvanas will do if she finds out.
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>>61361858
Hitler gets thrown around to much just a general term to me these days, I suppose meant the more pragmatic image of a nationalist. Ogrim for better or worse was apart of what happened to the draenei and did so willingly, when the orcs arrived in Azeroth he had no reservations about exterminating humans. Unless I'm mistaken Stormwinds canals (although I wasn't aware they had any until thee city was rebuilt) were described as filled with bodies of civvies in the book that dealt with the part of the 2nd war when the orcs began losing. Regardless of that though war=/=genocide it's quite clear they weren't going to leave any humans alive when they conquered them, Alterac only being spared because of a deal.
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>>61361956
>The Alliance probably doesn't want to talk to anyone of them who feel like Sylvanas needs to be dethroned.
Except the Saurfang is in Stormwind and Best-Boy-Anduin will talk to anyone. Anduin also knows Baine is a good guy and there are good Forsaken... well, *were*, and so I'm sure he'll hear Saurfang out.
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>>61361818
Same reasons I might sub to classic if it comes out.
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>>61361649
Its in Before the Storm. Magni tells them there's an issue, she sends Baine and lots of shamans, druids etc to help Magni then Magni fucks off to go warn the centaur.
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>>61362027
Exactly, Anduin is the one pulling all these "There can still be peace" moves out of his ass. Everyone there was ready to fucking murder Saurfang until he called them off.

He can't protect everyone, sending some tauren or blood elf with a message to a town or even the gates of Stormwind gets a bolt to the neck and a shallow grave.
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>>61361649
That gives them an even better excuse to have "not returned due to complications", those complications being that Sylvanas just tried to kill their leader, that prick.
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Sylvanas is totally justified in burning down teldrassil, they haven't "started" a war sylvanas is finally making moves to end it. They have had open warfare in every expansion and is one of the major sources of alliance military action in Kalimdor.
She initially only planned to capture it but it became clear the Alliance would never give up and would just constantly send ships to assault Teldrassil, after she found out Saurfang spared Malfurion she decided it was better to burn Teldrassil to the ground because you can't hold a world tree whilst the guy who can do the wisp trick is around.

Saurfang goes on and on about honor but so did Garrosh, the orc version of honor doesn't actually make you a good person and he has seen that in MOP and WoD so it makes no sense for him to suddenly become obsessed with honor.

Its true that Anduin wants peace, but nearly nobody else in the Alliance does and Sylvanas knows long term peace is not possible with the current state of affairs. She also doesn't believe Anduin will legitimately stay away from azerite, which to be fair she's wrong about but she's not wrong that every single one of her generals and all the alliance leaders save velen (magni isnt the leader of the dwarves) absolutely want to use that shit.
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>>61358773
Lordaeron doesn't belong to "the humans". It belongs to the Forsaken, they are its original inhabitants. Its true that there are human refugees from Lordaeron, but they make up 1/10th the number the Forsaken do.
Calia Menethil was asked by Anduin in the new book "Do you think we should retake lordaeron? Would you want to be queen? Do you think your people want their land back?" and Calia says "The people of Lordaeron currently hold Lordaeron, its best to just leave things as they are".
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>>61362162
Okay so the problem with that is that thousands upon thousands of innocents live in/on that tree, and destroying people who have absolutely nothing to do with fighting a war or leading a nation is kind of objectively a bad thing. Sure, as the location of the Night Elf capital it's certainly a legitimate target, but that doesn't warrant wholesale destruction.

Also it robs us of sweet sweet occupation/guerrilla plotlines, which is the bigger issue.
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>>61362254
Didn't Sylvanas murder her and her own people because they were pushing for peace? Sounds like she doesn't have what's best in mind for the people of Lordaeron but herself, killed that council off too.
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>>61362162
>Sylvanas is totally justified in burning down teldrassil
No.
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>>61362278
The Desolate Council were trying to undermine Sylvanas right at a critical time. With the discovery of Azerite and the power that it represented, Sylvanas couldn't afford to have her subjects randomly switching sides on her in the middle of a crisis. Killing them off was important to maintain the unity of the Forsaken.
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>>61362267
> thousands upon thousands of innocents live in/on that tree
No, thousands of nelfs lived in the tree, you know, the people who have been constantly attacking the Horde because MUH TREES for years now. There was no way they were going to just accept Horde occupation, and trying to keep them in line would have required far more resources than it was worth. Better just to get rid of them right there and be done with it instead of dragging the whole thing out.
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>>61362267
You act like those innocents were going to evacuate if asked nicely. Its precisely because it would be stupid to allow for those guerilla plotlines (which can still happen in ashenvale etc) that she burned it down.
Also the night elves are thousand year old warriors and druids for the most part in the lore, blizzard wants us to conveniently forget that though.
>>61362278
She murders Calia because Calia convinces some of the desolate council to defect. She kills the defecters and yes, she kills some of the other members of the council but people saying she killed all of them are misrepresenting it, she killed the traitors first, then any of those who didn't come back till AFTER she killed the traitors. Its fucking harsh, her reasoning is that she didn't trust any of the ones that only came back out of fear. The majority of the desolate council came back when she first blew the horn.
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>>61358773
The humans never lost Lordaeron. Its citizens have been living there this whole time.
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>>61362368
>Living
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>>61362320
Okay but hold up, I was under the impression that the meeting was to try and reconnect families shattered by the Scourge, not switch sides.

>>61362362
My dude, they were defending their forests against Orcs who have been constantly invading them for MUH TREES ever since the Horde made landfall on Kalimdor.
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>>61362362
>attacking the Horde because MUH TREES for years now
You mean the horde that invaded ashenvale, nuked stonetalon and pushed into Feralas and Azshara, which were all still Nelf territory. Fucking hordies will justify literally EVERYTHING if it means they can somehow claim honor.
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>>61362417
The meeting WAS for that, in fact thats why Calia was there. It was all going well (except for Calia, her husband and son seem to be dead for reals) but then some forsaken recognized Calia and started talking with her. They said they wanted to defect and join the alliance so they could be with their families long term (the meeting was designed to be a one time reunion) and Calia, not thinking straight says yes. As they begin to leave sylvanas blows the horn signalling the end of the meeting and most of the forsaken start heading back. However some keep talking to their families stalling for time and the ones with calia start running. Then the massacre happens, then Sylvanas kills Calia (she doesn't blame Anduin, she knows he would never try this shit) and claims as a Citizen of Lordaeron, she too was a traitor. Anduin forces Sylvanas to let them take Calia's corpse but otherwise (though pissed) lets the forsaken leave without further incident as they didn't hurt any members of the alliance.

Then Anduin and Alonsus Faol turn Calia into an undead using the light, but her eyes are golden/yellow instead of forsaken colored. She then says she just felt so sad and thought she would be helping by bringing the forsaken to the alliance, but realizes she just got lots of people killed. There's very little explanation of what the fuck she is now or why the fuck there's a holy light raised undead.

The plotline is fucking stupid and I'm worried they are going to try to kill off Sylvanas in the future and have Calia become leader of the forsaken, which is the dumbest fucking thing possible.

Its worth noting the Desolate Council (the guys meeting with their families, or at least trying to, most didnt find the people they were looking for, luck of the draw) arose originally as an organization critical of Sylvanas spending too much time on being warchief. Which is funny, because the rest of the horde accuses her of spending too much time with the forsaken.
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>>61362456
The nelfs were too fucking retarded to use any of the resources in that territory, and the moment the Horde actually tried to do something productive with ashenvale the nelfs chimped out and attacked. Kicking the nelfs out of Kalimdor was objectively the right move. There's no way they were going to do anything but be a thorn in the Horde's side, so getting rid of them was the only reasonable option.
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Also on the Burning of Teldrassil, Sylvanas had a long term plan past what she discusses that she mentions a few times. We don't know the plan, but it didn't involve Teldrassil burning, it involved Malfurion's death and Tyrande taking over the night elves. Her short term plan had some flaws, like she assumed Greymane would be pissed if the alliance tried to retake teldrassil before gilneas but in reality greymane felt the people of gilneas owe the night elves a great debt and was all for attacking teldrassil.

Her long term plan? Who fucking knows. The only thing that we know is Malfurion had to be gone for some reason.
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>>61362576
>the moment the Horde actually tried to do something productive with ashenvale the nelfs chimped out and attacked.
You mean to tell me that someone get angry WHEN YOU INVADE THEIR TERRITORY, KILL THEIR TROOPS AND TAKE THEIR RESOURCES?

IMAGINE MY FUCKING SHOCK
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>>61362631
In every case, going all the way back to warcraft 3, it's always the nelfs that attacked first with no warning and no attempt to do anything but kill the Horde. With a neighbor like that, the only reasonable response is to fight back and kick them off the continent.
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>>61362631
Why do people have the need to cover their characters is weird tattoos and strange scars?

Feel like her midsection is an advertisement for a beer.
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>>61362572
>arose originally as an organization critical of Sylvanas spending too much time on being warchief.
We read different books, as I never got the impression that they were critical of her, only that there was a leadership vacuum with her in Orgrimmar all the time. The Desolate Council seemed to be surprisingly benign in their objective of just keeping Undercity running.

>>61362628
Her plan seemed clear, to hold Darnasus and the remaining elves hostage to keep the Alliance off Kalimdor and let the Alliance fracture to infighting on how to deal with it. This may have even worked, except burning Teldrasill was such an atrocity to galvanize the Alliance instead of fracture it.
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>>61362691
They were making a Farcry 5 reference with Yrel, becoming an insane cult leader who starts forcefully recruiting people into their cult and murdering the unbeleivers just before a nuclear apocalyspe.
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>>61362715
No thats her short term plan, which like i said had flaws. In "A Good War" she makes references to a different, longer term plan which we know nothing about, only that it overlaps on "Malfurion must die" which Saurfang is confused about.
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>>61362665
I feel you have a mental block when regarding the matter, as if the elves, in anyway should put foreigners before themselves or more specifically foreign invaders trepassing on their land and taking their resources.
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>>61362715
> burning Teldrasill was such an atrocity to galvanize the Alliance instead of fracture it.
Which is stupid beyond belief. Razing cities and killing the population was a standard part of pre-modern warfare. Acting like it's something super horrible and crossing a line just smacks of the kind of stupidity that SJWs display when they declare people in the past to be racist/sexist/homophobic monsters based on modern morality.
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>>61362749
If the nog elfs are too stupid to make use of those resources for ten fucking thousand years, then I don't care if they whine that those forests belong to them. Use it or lose it.
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So! Anyone excited for allied races? I think it'll be cool to see what the Dark Irons are up to these days.
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I hate how BfA's story just ignores the Class Hall Orders entirely; not that they aren't keeping them as gameplay (thank god), but that the story is just completely ignoring that basically every half-way important or potent character is a member of a class hall order serving some explicitly higher purpose or literal deity, and that those orders represent a huge, completely ignored, military power in the setting.
BfA's story should literally be "Haha we're going to war" and then 10 of 12 class orders saying "What? No you aren't" at which point the Old Gods attack like they're going to do in patch 8.2.0 anyway.

This is even ignoring how little sense it makes for any of the faction leaders to be in a position to make demands of the Adventurer anymore. You're canonically a better warrior than Saurfang, a better Druid than Furion, a better Paladin than Uther/Tirion/Arthas/Turalyon, a better rogue than Garona, a better Hunter than Sylvanas/Nathanos/Rexxar, a better DK than Donkey Kong, better Shaman than Thrall, etc. etc. and you're the boss of landed military orders, some of which control entire zones like the Silver Hand or the Cenarion Circle.
I recall that the Horde allied races questline starts with Nathanos Blightcaller, the worst meme character to come out of WoW, making snide comments towards the Adventurer, the leader of a military nation-state and possibly divine warrior working directly for God himself.

Basically what I'm saying is that WoW should have transitioned into an MMO grand strategy game and the Priest PC should be able to excommunicate people for their insolence.
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>>61362718
Ooohh, now I see the parallels.
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>>61362763
Sylvanas didn't raze a city, she burned an entire island, so like a city and a couple villages.
She also did so just to send a "fuck you" to her enemies, massacre'd a bunch of civilians for no particular good reason. You even betray youself by using the term "raze" - Razing cities usually meant looting the shit too. Sylvanas killed a bunch of kids to say "don't mess with us".
Stop trying to compare a cartoon booby elf to history.
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>>61362786
The Dark Irons are basically bros now. In the alliance WoD quests two Dark Iron Dwarves help you out tremendously all the time. At one point everyone assumes the "treacherous Dark Iron" have betrayed you, but when you investigate they were just captured. It was kinda racist, as those two hadn't done anything wrong in the past.
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How is joining the Alliance an honourable thing to do? What a shitshow
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>>61362784
>Talks about nogs and acts like one.
You're either farming (you's) or NuPol pick one.
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>>61362793
The power trip reached it's all time high in WotLK when Tirion gathered the best of the best to fight at his tournament to get them ready for the Lich King. Only for said Lich King to have done everything just to get the heroes to show up on his doorstep so he can kill them and have the best death knights on the planet.
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>>61362838
Garrosh acted entirely within the confines of the orc concept of honor with all of his actions.
Orc honor isn't human honor.
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>>61362784
So if I were to go to your home, rape your wife and kids, steal your shit and lock you out of your house while you were out working. You cant be angry at me, since you werent using those resources at the time, or using them in the way 'I' would have used them since you were gone.
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>>61362763
First, I don't think a capitol has been razed in a few decades now.

Second, it was a world tree, which makes it a little different

Third, it was a move of pure unprovoked brutality. This wasn't a situation like Dresden or Hiroshima, this was a pre-emptive strike in a (declining?) cold war to destroy most of a small country.
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>>61362814
Massacring a conquered population was commonplace throughout history you ignorant little shit. Cities, villages, even entire kingdoms. It was just a normal part of warfare since why the fuck should a conquering army spend tons of resources trying to control a rebellious population when they can just kill them and resettle the land with their own people. Fuck, even the concept of a "civilian" is a modern invention. Again, you're acting like a SJW applying modern morality to a pre-modern situation.
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>>61362851
I'd like to point out America had firebombed japanese cities into fucking ashes for months before Hiroshima, it literally did less damage than conventional bombing and the Japanese military barely noticed it.
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>>61362793
>10 out of 12 class orders
Wait, which ones wouldn't be? My guess is the Valarjar and the Ebon Blade. DK's need to cause pain and Warriors just want a good fight.
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>>61362859
Not even the mongols raised and killed everyone and they had a reputation for it. Infact there are plenty of historical examples that disprove what you're saying stop talking out of your ass. Something tell's you're the /r9k/ / aussie lurks because you always seem to find your way here from /v/. This is quite obviously you. >>61362784
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>>61362851
> First, I don't think a capitol has been razed in a few decades now.
No shit, that's because it's the modern era. As I said, that's modern era thinking. In pre-modern times, destroying someone's capital was a common thing. Acting like it's crossing some sort of line is like criticizing someone in the past for owning slaves. Sure, by modern standards it's wrong, but back then it was considered a perfectly normal thing, even praiseworthy.

> Second, it was a world tree, which makes it a little different
A corrupt tree that the nelfs made for purely self-serving reasons that didn't even work. Getting rid of it does the world a favor.

> Third, it was a move of pure unprovoked brutality.
Fuck off, the nelfs have been attacking the Horde constantly for years. This was something that they had coming for a long time.
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>>61362923
On the subject of the corrupt non-working tree, i found it fucking hilarious that they had the opportunity to make it work and purposely didn't. After cata all the aspects (thrall is the earth aspect) come and bless it and Nozdormu is like "now time to put the final blessing and make it a real world tree" and malfurion is like "hold on no i dont like you nozdormu you will one day become murozond so pls dont bless".
What the fuck Malfurion?
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>>61362896
Orc honor means two things.
1.) Victory
2.) Loyalty

Remember their blood oath:
> Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.
> I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
> From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

Honor means winning battles in service to the warchief or dying in the attempt. If you accomplish that, then you behaved honorably.
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>>61362951
If nozdormu blessed it, it could then become corrupted by the infinite dragonflight and corrupt the night elves. If Moruzond can corrupt an entire dragonflight, what makes you think he couldnt corrupt the night elves, whose immortality relied on power from the magic of the world tree. They would become afflicted like the blood elves.
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>>61362923
>No shit, that's because it's the modern era.
I'm talking about in-game.

>A corrupt tree that the nelfs made for purely self-serving reasons that didn't even work.
I'm not sure how much public knowledge that is, and as far as "not working" it doesn't give them immortality but I was under the impression it did other things.

>This was something that they had coming for a long time.
So everyone should just be genocided because everyone is bad. I guess Sargaras was right.
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>>61362902
Ironically I think the Death Knights and Warriors would be the least interested class orders in an interfaction war, being agents of the Lich King and the Titans who are up there with the Demon Hunters, Priests and Druids in the "eternal vigilance against real evil" schtick.

Hunters and Warlocks are the only two class orders that I think would be indifferent to an interfaction war since they're the two most individualistic factions and also don't serve any particular goal, deity or concept.
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>>61362997
He didn't corrupt the entire dragonflight and he CANT corrupt the world tree because he DIDNT. By the end of cata when the blessings have happened all the temporal fuckery Murozond will ever do had already been thwarted. Nozdormu's entire life has already been plotted out by the bronze dragonflight and the heroes have already stopped the infinite dragonflight in every one of their plans and killed them all.
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>>61362922
Rome would massacre rebellious cities all the time. Why? Because that was the smart thing to do. You don't win if you pull punches and act like a soft little bitch like what you want everyone to be. Winning wars requires brutality.
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>>61363004
>Sargeras was right
This but unironically. The Void Lords are going to win, and it's all our fault.
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>>61363004
No it doesn't do anything. The world tree was a replacement for the well of eternity. Teldrassil isn't built on a well of eternity and doesn't replicate any of it's functions. Not to mention Nordrassil still exists.
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>>61363004
> I'm talking about in-game.
> HURR DURR WHAT WAS THE SIEGE OF ORGRIMMAR?
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>>61363010
>Hunters and Warlocks
>don't serve any particular goal, deity or concept.
this wouldnt fly in 2007
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>>61363004
The alliance has attack Horde capitals twice. They attacked the Undercity in WotLK and Orgimmar in MoP. It's about time the Horde hit back.
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>>61363038
One of the theories about what Sylvanas' long term plan blizzard is hinting at is that it's an anti void lord strategy. The main reason why is that when she met her void corrupted sister the void voices all screamed "KILL SYLVANAS HOLY SHIT DO IT NOW OMG U DONT UNDERSTAND SHES GONNA DO BAD SHIT LIKE MASSACRES YOU HATE MASSACRES RIGHT HOLY FUCK KILL HER NOWWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNONNOW" which is kind of out of character for the void.
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>>61363026
Too bad The infinite Dragonflight is coming back this Expac and you are wrong
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>>61363032
You speak absolutes, point being it's not an absolute rule.
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>>61363072
Blizzard is pretty clearly setting up Sylvanas to go the Kerrigan route of ascending to divinity to fight the Void Lords, who are the real villains. She's directing the Horde to do things like secure the Azerite in order to save the world from the Void Lords, and the Alliance, which has been corrupted by the Void Lords, is an obstacle to that.
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>>61363047
Are you stupid? Orgrimmar is fine.

>>61363070
Both were in retaliation for something and both times they let the Horde off easy, neither capital was razed.
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>>61363109
We don't even now what Anduin's first lie was, only that it's already been told!
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>>61362923
>No shit, that's because it's the modern era. As I said, that's modern era thinking. In pre-modern times, destroying someone's capital was a common thing. Acting like it's crossing some sort of line is like criticizing someone in the past for owning slaves. Sure, by modern standards it's wrong, but back then it was considered a perfectly normal thing, even praiseworthy.
Not an excuse.
>>61362923
>A corrupt tree that the nelfs made for purely self-serving reasons that didn't even work. Getting rid of it does the world a favor.
Literally purged and freed of corruption by Malfurion, that plot was wrapped up before it's destruction. Stop trying to moralize it.
>>61362923
>Fuck off, the nelfs have been attacking the Horde constantly for years. This was something that they had coming for a long time.
It's called self defense, yes.
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>>61363072
>which is kind of out of character for the void.
It rather depends on what they're regining the Void into. Even in WoD, Void could hardly even be considered a different force from Death. That means we hardly know what Blizzard's current idea of Void is. It could be that the Void genuinely doesn't want everyone dead.
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>>61363117
> Both were in retaliation for something
And the Horde is retaliating against the nelfs for their constant attacks.

> they let the Horde off easy, neither capital was razed.
With the UC that was only because Jaina teleported everyone away. Varian was all set to start a war and even end the world just to attack the Horde. And in Org, the Alliance was just there as an opportunist. They had no good reason to attack, they just went for it because they saw the Horde was weakened by infighting and they were spoiling for a fight.
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>>61363189
Night elves were retaliating against the Horde for invading their sacred forests. Horde should consider themselves lucky that night elves chose to stay in the forests and not go after the Horde with a vengeance. Complaining about night elves attacking is like complaining when wasps sting you after you kick their nest.
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>>61363138
> It's called self defense, yes.
Self defense is not "REEEE YOU TOUCHED A TREE I WILL KILL YOU NOW!"
Self defense is when a triggered nelf bitch attacks you and you kill her so that she won't kill you. And when the nelfs just won't stop constantly attacking you fumigate their nests to finally get rid of them so that you can get on with your life without worrying about constant nelf attacks.
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>>61358328
Is it really Horde bias if you get to be in the right 100% of the time?

It's always the Horde being evil, always the Horde doing the bad things to the Alliance so the Alliance can feel all righteous about it and the Horde looks like a bunch of warmongering retards

No, what's really happening is that Blizzard has decided that the optimal path forwards is to try and trick both sides into feeling like the other side is getting favorable treatment. Thereby ensuring that nobody is happy ever
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>>61363241
Well some posters make it clear they are warmongering retards. It just leaves those of us who aren't out in the cold.

Tauren succession when?
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>>61363189
It was also retaliation for the alliance breaking the legion truce to attack the azerite mines in silithus.
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>>61363240
So you invade Faralas, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Azshara, BITCH that they attacked back after you invaded several of their territories, and then say you were justified in DESTROYING their capital city for retaliating AFTER YOU INVADED THEIR LANDS.

You cant possibly be this retarded and be able to use the internet.

Honoest question, do you consciously have to think about breathing or do you have a machine do it for you since you clearly dont have enough brain activity to actually understand how stupid you are
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>>61363124
He told Baine that they couldn't be best friends.
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>>61363053
So it breaks down like this in my mind

Druids (Cenarion Circle): explicitly neutral, serve a higher function (nature, purity), and are purposefully arrayed against the Legion and Old Gods. Not down for War.
Priests (Conclave): serve a higher function (light, shadow), are purposefully arrayed against the Old Gods. Probably not down for War.
Warlocks (Black Harvest): self-serving, don't serve a higher power, not specifically against any remaining enemy powers. Could be down for War.
Shamans (Earthen Ring): explicitly neutral, serve a higher function (balance, elementals, nature), arrayed against the old gods. 100% not down for War.
Demon Hunters (Illidari): barely a part of the factions, serve a higher function (fuck demons), eternally arrayed against the Legion, they actually shouldn't care about Darnassus/Silvermoon being the remnants of Illidan's and Kael'thas' armies. Not down for war.
Death Knights (Ebon Blade: neutral, serve a higher being (Lich Kong), arrayed against the Undead. Probably not down for War.
Monks (Broken Temple: explicitly neutral, serve a higher function (balance, peace), most removed from the factions. Probably not down for War.
Rogues (Uncrowned): literally exist to kill the the faction leaders in case of BfA's plot happening.
Paladins (Silver Hnad): explicitly neutral, serve a higher power (Light, good), basically their own nation in the Plaguelands, eternally arrayed against the Undead, the Legion, AND the Old Gods. Not down for War.
Mages (Tirisgarde): sort of neutral (work for Dalaran), don't really serve a higher power or goal, vaguely arrayed against evil. Could be down for war.
Hunters (Unseen Path): ???, smell bad, eat people. Down for war.
Warriors (Valarjar): serve the Titans, explicitly serves a higher function (Titanic goals), eternally arrayed against the Legion and Old Gods. Shouldn't be down for War.

And according to Legion, each of these factions is a competent military force with important lore NPCs.
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>>61362793
>I hate how BfA's story just ignores the Class Hall Orders entirely;
After playing through the Warrior campaign, I am fine with that. I never want to see that garbage again.
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>>61362793
Class Halls were stupid. Especially making the player "leader of all <class>" part.
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The Faction War is the Old God Civil War. Xal'atath mentioned that there could be only one Old God in the end. Sylvanas has Saronite in her. If Yogg could scry through the Lich King's Saronite armor, he can definitely affect Sylvanas despite the Undead being void-resistant. The direct touch of an Old God should be more than enough, just as Arthas' direct touch could overcome the Worgen resistance to undeath.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh. "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity." Yogg-Saron, self-proclaimed God of Death ("BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH!"), is influencing Sylvanas - who fell into a realm of Shadow after impaling herself upon his blood, his corpse. She then began making deals with other entities of Death - that which truly belongs to Yogg-Saron. First the Val'kyr, then Helya, and now perhaps Bwonsamdi. The spirits did tell Vol'jin to make her Warchief. The Loa. Who was Vol'jin's personal Loa again? The one who had claim on the souls of anyone and everyone he killed in his life? The one Zalazane incurred the wrath of? The one who MIGHT be the "Shadowlands Wraith" who taught Odyn how to make Val'kyr, such as Helya? Who's to say Bwonsamdi won't offer Sylvanas her coveted immortality... if she sells the souls of the Horde to him, to Death, and ultimately to the God of Death, Yogg-Saron. "All shall serve Death. All shall serve ME." "BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH." "What difference is there between you and the Lich King now!?" We should remember these lines. And we haven't even gotten to N'zoth yet, or what connects the two and why Yogg-Saron has always been the Alliance's true enemy.
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Reminder /ourguys/ are still the scourge.
Remove (((horde))) & pussy alliance.
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>>61363423
Did you play the Hunter campaign? I don't blame you if you didn't. It sucks. However, the Unseen Path is pretty nice.

>We do not fight for glory, for fame, or riches.
>We exist to protect those who need it most, often without reward or recognition.

They're just a network of rangers who watch for trouble and intervene when necessary.
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>>61363517
>Warriors become golden-winged warriors of benevolent gods
>Paladins become the servants of a cold, unfeeling, neutral entity
Legion was definitely weird.

Valarjar was cool though. The storyline did a good job of really pushing the point that Warriors (at least, the PC warrior) aren't just shitty Paladins or DKs without supernatural powers, but that they are at an absurd, Exalted level of martial skill that the gods themselves recognize it.
It's why I really don't like the typical suggestions that the Warrior organization should have been Melee Island/Brawler's guild/Arena. They'd have just continued being the mundane class that beats up crocodiles while Paladins, DKs, and Demon Hunters filled the roles of "Warriors who actually do something".
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>>61363740
>Exalted level of martial skill that the gods themselves recognize it.
That's why I hated it. It removed me being a blood and mud warrior. Suddenly I've got these no-name vrykul asshats all over my dick instead of actual, /real/ Warriors from Warcraft's past. Varian sure as fuck didn't need Odyn's blessing when he soloed a Fel-Reaver and all Grom needed was his axe (noticeably absent Warrior artifact selection) when he executed Mannoroth. Now I can't do shit without Odyn's orders and a gaggle of vikings I do not know and care about following me around.

A warrior does not lead the warrior class hall, nor does he unite with his class. The Battlelord is canonically the only Warrior actually allowed in the Halls of Valor seperating him from his soldiers in arms.
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>>61363656
The Scourge would have made a great third faction. Skeleton, Crypt Fiend/Nerubian (not sure how armor would look on em but hey, they could use the pauldron models still) Quillboar and something like undead tuskarr, or maybe "conquered" similar to the Quillboar?
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>>61363599
The Proudmoore flag has N'zoth-like tentacles at the bottom. Kul Tiras' Tidesages worship the sea. N'zoth is the God of the Deep. The sea is his domain. The Kul Tirans serve N'zoth in many ways without knowing it, and their internal enemies wield the power of Death - Yogg-Saron's domain. Gorak Tul and the Heartsbane Coven wield a corrupted form of druidic magic powered by Death. N'zoth was also, indirectly, the master of another Allied Race for a time. In serving Deathwing, Ragnaros, former master of the Dark Irons, truly served N'zoth, the one with the largest hand in Neltharion's corruption. The one with the largest hand to play during the Cataclysm. The others were dead or dormant or executing a postmortem plan. N'zoth was free to act. Even now, Moira Thaurissan unknowingly serves the same master her late husband always has.

"We share a Master!" "The Boy-King serves at the Master's table!" "N'zoth, I journey to N'yalotha!" Il'gynoth is a servant of N'zoth, as is all else in the Nightmare. It is his prison Xal'atath says is breaking open at long last. Azshara making moves. Kul Tiras and Zandalar under attack. The TIDES of war rising again. "Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it." "Beware, beware, the Daughter of the Sea." "I heard, I heard, across a moonlit sea, the OLD VOICE calling me." "Beware, beware... of ME." An OLD VOICE - the voice of an OLD GOD, the God of the Sea, calling to his daughter. To his servant, and the nation that serves him.

N'zoth, at last, calls all his servants to him to thwart Yogg-Saron's final gambit and be the last Old God standing, as was always meant to be. "Rally beneath the banners of a world at war." "Once more shall the twisted flesh-banners of N'Zoth chitter and howl above the fly-blown corpse of this world." "N'Zoth iiyoq raz'tal'vsak! IIYOQ NEL'OTHK AR'AFGH! = The will of N'Zoth is made manifest! IT CANNOT BE CONTAINED!" Need we say more?
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>>61363888
Skeleton of other races.
Zombie other races.
Nerubian.
There, easy enough.
Oh wait blizzard, so never mind.
>yfw teliessen was so dumb as to think we’d get commissar bolvar’s world police as a faction
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>>61363993
>Not including the Quillboar
Your version makes the scourge one note. Zombies and ghouls lack intelligence (most skeletons do too but we see others that have it) and "forsaken" style zombies would be difficult to tell apart from the horde ones, not that blizzard cares with shit like allied races and pandarens muddying those waters.
Quillboar have served the scourge since vanilla and would give them a capital on Kalimdor to go alongside a Plaguelands and Northrend capital. They also provide a reason for players to fight for the scourge beyond "i hate the legion that much" or "death is cool" because the quillboar were driven from their lands by the orcs, providing a simple "us vs them" plotline to a portion of the scourge.
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>>61363889
"Flesh is his gift. He is your true creator." This refers to Yogg-Saron, author of the Curse of Flesh, corrupter of Loken, and the one who ultimately doomed the Titanforged. Four of the Alliance's seven main races descend from the Titanforged of Azeroth - from the Vrykul, the Mechagnomes, and the Earthen. Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes, the ultimate CORE of the Alliance. Their shared faith in the Light comes ultimately from Tyr, whose ideals allowed the survival of those Titanforged cursed with flesh and pursued by Loken. Two of Yogg-Saron's C'thraxxi servants, two spawn of the God of Death pursued, and through his sacrifice and the Light, he disabled both. The Tirisfal Glades were where Man first truly learned of the Light, of the Paladin's way. Is it any wonder that the powers of the Paladin have always been so effective against the forces of Death, every generation of Death Knight included? The Death Knights, which all technically have their origins in the Horde or its members? N'zoth has always been there, bending the minds of men against his rival - against the God of Death. The Light functions based on belief in the righteousness of its user's cause. To oppose Death, man needed to believe that Death was Evil, and that to overthrow it was Good. This allowed them to use the Light to destroy the undead. N'zoth has barely had to do anything at all.

The Titanforged of Tyr are the Alliance, unwitting servants of N'zoth in his war against the God of Death. The Forsaken and Orcs are, witting or otherwise, servants of Death. Remember that the Orcs are Breakers - descended from Grond. The Primals, embodiments of Life, are their enemies. Orcs are naturally inclined to hate trees. The Scourge, and thus the Forsaken, stem from Ner'zhul, and from Death, the antithesis of Life. The Faction War will not decide who wins between Anduin and Sylvanas, but between N'zoth and Yogg-Saron. This is the Battle for Azeroth - the battle for control and corruption of Her soul.
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>>61363599
>>61363889
>>61364041
You don't actually have to post whole paragraphs about it, literally everybody realizes that BfA is going to be "Red vs. Blue" for 1 patch cycle, 8.1 is going to be "spooky foreshadowing, what could it mean :^)" and in 8.2 dollar-store Cthulhu is going to walk out of the ocean and yell "Haha it was the old gods all along, foolish mortals".

Honestly, BfA feels like it's going to be another skippable expansion used to set-up the sequel (like WoD). I'm hoping we get something cool like a (good) time travel expansion where you get to go back to the Black Empire. Or have individual zones that are different points in time like the War of the Shifting Sands, the Troll Wars, the War of the Ancients, etc.
The Infinite Dragonflight were poorly used, and I really fucking hate WoD for being such a pile of shit that just the concept of using the Caverns of Time for anything cool is now poisoned.
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>>61364051
You miss the forest for the trees. This has ALWAYS been the plan. It's been right under our noses since Wrath.
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>>61356511
>Khadgar is quite interested at the implications.
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I'm thinking they're running out of ideas. They're just stalling now since Legion, they'll probably wrap up the entire Void Lord thing next expansion. This expansion they're clearly going to do the AvH for a bit before transitioning to fighting the Old Gods. I mean we'll have Azshara coming back, which means she's gonna be a major part. Then after the next expansion which probably gonna be announced next year, that will probably be the last major expansion. I'm betting they're busy making WoW 2.0 akin to Everquest 2.

Honestly I always felt there should've been three factions. Horde, Alliance, Scourge. Horde would be Trolls, Orcs, Tauren, Blood Elves and Goblins. Alliance would be Dwarves, Humans, Night Elves, Draenei and Gnomes. Scourge would be Banshees (high elves), Worgen, Forsaken (zombies), Vrykul, and Liches (skeletons).
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>>61363544
I would have settled for the players simply becoming a member, and receiving special weapons merely based on artifacts (reverse-engineered, bite-sized mass production, secret counterparts, or just simply new shit altogether) so we wouldn't see a million Highlords running around with Ashbringer.

Methinks Blizzard took one look at Final Fantasy XIV and thought "those copycat fucks are doing THAT with their player characters? Why didn't we think of that first?".

For those unfamiliar with the game, it's essentially a polished/watered down WoW clone with a much heavier emphasis on cinematic raids/bosses and locking virtually the entire game behind a linear story, in which the player character is jerked off in cutscene after cutscene as the sole ultimate god-slaying adventurer in the world, with virtually no acknowledgement of other PCs (while still subjecting the player to dumb filler like sifting through chocobo shit for quest key items).
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>>61362162
>Sylvanas is justified in burning down an actual world tree that had the blessings of the Aspects (except Nozdormu) and houses innocent civilians
for that matter
>it's okay that Sylvanas tried to have an ancient and benevolent hero that has been directly instrumental in repelling every single Legion invasion that has ever occurred on Azeroth and is also the most powerful druid on the planet

Long term peace isn't possible when you're literally so evil that you think killing fucking Malfurion of all people is a good plan. It's one thing if it's Tyrande, but fucking MALFURION?!
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>>61356494
>they rescue Garrosh from his trial for war crimes
>a short time later, they realize that he is a warmonger
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I miss the Scourge; but specifically only the Vanilla era, bright purple and green, Naxxramas/Undercity artstyle scourge, not the generic edgy Wrath-era scourge.
Nothing has been more disappointing than the tonal merging of WoW and Diablo; with WoW becoming more generically grimdark, and Diablo becoming more cartoonish, jokey and lighthearted.
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>>61362368
Sure, if you can call that living.
>>
I swear, I check in to WoW lore every once in a while and it just gets progressively more and more retarded.
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>>61364223
>Blizzard took one look at Final Fantasy XIV
Yeah, having played both, there's a LOT of similarities. Also considering that FF is basically 'reskinned wow with a slow and loose beat system' and more casual friendly, they'd do good to keep an eye on it. Not sure we needed always-on-Discord added to WoW though.
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>>61364051
>Honestly, BfA feels like it's going to be another skippable expansion used to set-up the sequel (like WoD).
The team that made WoD made BfA. They have two teams working in rotation, Legion's team is now starting "the one after BfA" now that Legion's lifecycle has pretty much ended.

Also explains the storyline focus a little better.
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>>61362368
You know that feeling you get when you're not quite able to tell whether the writer is writing characters that are intentionally wrong or if the writer just doesn't realize the problem?
That's the feeling that I always got during the "We're going to take Lordaeron back for humanity" stuff. Like, Anduin is literally proposing to invade a foreign country and genocide its native people, but I don't think that's what the camera is trying to imply.

Honestly, WoW's lore has always been strangely genocidal which just kind of gets ignored because the whole setting runs on cartoon logic.
Remember when the Alliance and Horde attempt to displace a centaur community for their oil by tricking them with fake gold? And then when the centaurs found out you just fucking kill them all?
You burn a bunch of Grimtotem villages to the fucking ground in Dustwallow and Feralas. You spend a lot of time in WoW walking into villages and just fucking slaughtering people.
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>>61364891
Wod has a really good leveling story, it was the loss of raiding tier and 2 islands worth of cut content that killed it. but thats when they started splitting the team into 2 production groups. Legion was overall pretty good, but we will have to see if blizz can stick the landing on this expac.
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>>61364898
>You burn a bunch of Grimtotem villages to the fucking ground in Dustwallow and Feralas
to be fair, the grim totem were responsible for the death of Cairne, and attempted coup to kill baine and take over thunderbluff. so they deserved to get hatefucked.
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>>61364987
I think you also slaughter them and burn down their villages in Vanilla Dustwallow, as well. Of course, they were still absolute cunts at that point in time.
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>>61356780
>she actually cares deeply about the horde

I don't know how anyone can claim this when the Battle for Lordaeron showed her blighting her own non-Forsaken troops and then raising them as undead.
>>
>reminder that is OFFICIAL lore that Sylvana's chief Goblin and kidnapped Gnome engineers fell in love with each other and were sick of creating weapons, hence them trying to escape the Horde
Shorties are truly the most enlightened race in WoW, making love not war.
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>>61364967
WoD was crippled by internal rearranging in Blizzard's development team, yeah. The story I hear is that they hired a bunch of new devs to replace the ones who went off to make Overwatch, but couldn't quite get the new devs trained up in time.

Hopefully they learned their lesson. The biggest knock against WoD was the utter lack of content more than anything.
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>>61365046
Everyone hates Sylvanas, primarily because she's just Garrosh again

Why the fuck does Blizzard think their audience wants Garrosh again? They hated him so much that they were forced to make him a raid boss
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>>61364876
Always on discord ffxiv? What?
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>>61365064
When did that happen exactly?
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Sylvanus is _________. ?
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>>61351835
Why is this thread so autismal? I thought Warcraft was a normie game?
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>>61365663
waifu
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>>61365139
Without Sylvanas, there is no Warcraft
When there's nothing left but atrocious WoW original characters like Bane and Anduin, this is when the lore will finally be dead to me (the gameplay was dead to me long ago)
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>>61357374
>Baine has the respect of the players
No he doesn't. He's been in the game for years and he's done exactly fuckall. The only time he's done anything was in a shitty shitty book.
At least Cairne played snowballs with us.
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Should the Zandalari be in charge of the Horde?
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>>61365783
No, Nightborne
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>>61365591
Before The Storm novel, they might have died at the end of their story, it;s a bit ambiguous.
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>>61365737
The lore died in Cataclysm, all that's left is to watch the continuous train wreck that remains
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>>61365663
just a genocidal maniac who manipulates gullible warlike people into letting her kill more living creatures to raise as Forsaken

theory: the "spirits" that told vol'jin having her as warchief was a good idea were not true loa but spirits of the dead under sylvanus' control she specifically sent to trick him

I mean it's tragic to see her storyarc go from heroic victim to almost literally in every sense the evil she fought against but that means that at this point in her story she's a one-dimensional anime villain who like the Lich King wants to kill literally everything

When horde leaders complain about the Lich King-level atrocities she commits in her obvious quest to make all life go extinct she spouts some brainless orc slogans and the morons can't help but fall for it and then let her continue. If I didn't watch American politics I would think that was unrealistic.
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>>61351835

Horde is atrocious right now. So sad that in the recent interview ion somehow thinks that "Old Soldier" fixed everyone's complaints with it...
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>>61365919
it takes an american completely numb to the atrocities they committed in Iraq to think what Sylvanus did was "morally gray"

>one hellfire missile for the mud hut full of children
>another hellfire missile 20 minutes later
>for the firefighters, paramedics, and good samaritans
>put the guy who leaks the video in prison without charge for years until they confess
>"I have no problem with any of this" says the blizzard writer
like, what would you have a problem with, dude? If Teldrassil was filled with Jews would you call it "morally gray" to kill them all?
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>Saurfang was extremely angry over the dishonorable burning of a capital, slaughtering countless civilians
>Saurfang knew about the plan to blight Undercity, an act which will kill countless people of both factions including her own civilians
>Doesn't warn Anduin or anyone else

Saurfang has no honour, just like the rest of the horde, Its concept of honour is always based on hypocrisy. I wish they actually admitted this for fucking once. I wouldn't be half an angry at horde fanboys.
>>
>>61358334

See that right there is what pisses me off. I was able to actually buy into the end of mop, I really was. The horde genuinely had remade itself and acted pretty good for like...15? years. I know it isn't super long, but varian's growth and the fact that he could actually see the horde was worthwhile when it did a lot to sort itself out made me buy in.

But...when the horde fucks up again, not 5 years later...like wtf? And what's even worse is THR HORDE DOESNT CORRECT ITSELF. Saurfang goes and attempts seppoku on the alliance instead of (probably) getting killed challenging sylvanas and all the horde come out to defend her kingdom! It's like the horde learned nothing from mop about not following scum. She can continue being a Saturday cartoon villain while the horde just grumbles about it but does nothing until the story deems they're allowed to rebel...but the fact that they didn't do this sooner despite having seen what inaction does in mop just makes the horde look so awful. They're either complicit or maliciously negligent on the matter to take so long
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>>61365918
She sat in his chair. SHE LITERALLY SAT, WHERE HE SAT, ITS LIKE POTTERY.
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Did Orcs have beer or any kind of alcoholic beverages on draenor? What about Ogres?
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>>61366053
With all the camera angles and mirror imagery from WC3, it's painfully clear Sylvanas is being set up to be as bad as the Lich King.

The best part is if Bolvar gets off his frostbitten ass and kills her, the last thing she sees is the Helm of Domination staring into her. Oh god that would be so fucking sweet, I'd probably get a hardon.
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>>61366075
Far too dramatic for her, she doesn't deserve a powerful death, she deserves to be forgotten in a dungeon somewhere and left to rot, with no one even thinking of trying to help her
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>>61365783
Yes. The Zandalari should be in charge of all of Azeroth.
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>>61366092
True, but she is a faction leader, she will get a cinematic death. Would just be extremely sweet to have the one thing she has always feared make a small return and kill her. All those years and power gathered still isn't enough to be nothing short of a ragdoll in the Lich King's hands.
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>>61365954
Why do people still care about what happened 15 years ago when they're doing exactly the same thing in Syria right now? Is this the European hypocrisy where they feel free to condemn Iraq that they weren't involved in, but feel the need to support the atrocities in Syria, where they are allied with the Americans?
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>>61366138
Instead of a cinematic death, how about a cinematic failure?

She gives an order to attack or something and nobody moves, she turns around and demands they run to their deaths and they just start walking away, she threatens them and they ignore her. Leaving her facing the entire Alliance army alone
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>>61366149
That would be a great way to start it, I agree! But this is blizzard. It runs on big heavy words, pregnant pauses, heroic quips to epic music and cheesy slogans. Her death will have a slow-mo moment too, and it'll be stretched out for at least a minute or 2, maybe more, while she either has a flashback or remembers some dumb shit about her youth or ideals.
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>>61366183
I dunno, the line "You want to fight a war? Fight it alone" seems like it could be big and heavy enough for Blizzard
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>>61366196
One can only hope, friend. I just want her to fucking die and get what she deserves.
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So what do demon hunters do now that the Legion's gotten its back broken? The death knights found new purpose after the fall of the Lich King by enslaving themselves to the Lich King, but what can the demon hunters do? Do they carry on and be the demon police? Do they say fuck it and try to rebuild some kind of life?
>>
>>61362749
>muh trees
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>>61365867
It just occurred to me now they didn't really end that story. Must be continued in BfA.
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>>61362793
I guess adventurers lost all those rights when they broke their artifacts with the power of love.
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>>61366126
This, mutants and aliens should be removed.
>>
So who's going to win in the end?
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>>61366146
Because the media and governments avoid telling us the truth about Libya, Syria, Yemen and the others. If you figure out one was bad you may realize they all were.
>>
>>61366498
Activision.
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>>61366311
>Endless crowds of unemployed demon hunters sit at the edges of roads with "Will kill demons for food" signs
Funnily enough, that's basically my RP character. She's a very skilled warlock, but being a warlock is not a job, and she has no other marketable skills, so she's poor as fuck.
>>
>>61366498
The Void.
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>>61365064
>It is true
Based Blizzard. Almost excuses the complete lack of Gnomes and Goblins in any cinematics.
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>>61356879
Assuming WoW lore is deep is the first mistake. The writing is incredibly shallow and simple. Imo, Blizz doesnt really care much about the lore.
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>>61363189
>.> Siege was cause of Theramore, plus Garrosh breaking every bone in Anduin's Body, plus Garrosh taking an old god heart and licking it up. Did you play Cata and Mists of Pandera at all?
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>>61358705
>I support Sylvanas
How does it feel to be a retard?
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>>61363189
Seriously, Should have ordered everyone out of Orgrimmar and burned it to the fucking ground. Eveyr time the Horde gets the slightest bit of time on its hands and they aren't 'helping' stop the world from ending, they start a world war.
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>>61358807
I play on an RP realm and imo the only thing you can do with WoW lore is ignore most of it and make your own narrative. Since most RPers are better writers than Blizzard writing team.
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>>61366311
>So what do demon hunters do now that the Legion's gotten its back broken?
You don't think Demon Hunters wouldn't go after Azshara, the originator of the Legion's interest in Azeroth?
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>>61366650
Yes, but the game prevents anythign significant from happening. They need status quo to sustain the game, thats why nothing ever happens, everythign is essentially a stalemate
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>>61366650
To be fair, this time it's entirely due to Sylvanas.
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>>61366688
What;s really annoying about this is that you can absolutely make an interesting story about two conflicting sides in a stalemate, but Blizzard never has
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>>61366668
>Since most RPers are better writers than Blizzard writing team.
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>>61365919
Hordes problems began with the shoehorning of belves so it could have a pretty race and with turning the Forsaken into Scourge 2.0
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>>61366092
I liked best boy shooting her in the back with a shotgun. Should have let her die back then.
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>>61366678
>implying the demon hunters are prepared for Azshara

There's only one force equipped to deal with Azshara and the forces of Najzatar and that's the Anglers. Nat Pagle will save the world.
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>>61366721
Horde's problems began with Garrosh existing at all

He seemed to have a negative impact on every character around him, everyone just seemed to be stupider around Garrosh
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>>61366718
Maybe not most. But at least they care about the lore.
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>>61366718
it's legitimately true though

that's more of a commentary on the writing quality than RPers
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>>61366721
Hordes problems began with adding the Forsaken to them. Still the biggest asspull Blizzard did lorwiese.
>inb4 muh allies of convenience
Yes fuck no. No one in the WC3 Horde would have been willing to allie up with fucking undead doing all the shady shit they did even during vanilla.
>>
>>61366786
Everyone knows it should have just been Kalimdor vs Eastern Kingdoms
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>>61365663
>>61363273
Ancap.
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>>61366786
imo this, the Forsaken should have been an NPC enemy race. Making them playable was a stupid idea.

>>61366814
Nelves wouldnt ally with the orcs after they killed Cenarius though.
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>>61351835
Here's my question, since I didn't finish the story of Legion and I'm probably not going to: Did Ilidan leave the Illidari any standing orders any standing orders other than "Fuck up any demons you see as hard as you possibly can"? Cause if it were up to me I would either take my magic space ship into the fucking Twisting Nether to stay out of this whole thing or, more likely given Sylvannas burning about a medium sized countries worth of innocent civilians, start carpet bombing Horde camps and maybe settlements, after giving them fair warning of our coming of course because civilian casualties are not something we would really want I think. Basically I just want to either stay neutral like we are in the fluff or use my god damn space ship like a god damn space ship, and I know I'm not going to be able to
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>>61366841
They already did, in the same game that the orcs killed Cenarius in
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>>61366729
I smell a new Hero class.
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>>61365918
She cant raise more forsaken because her stupid valkyr were more devoted to her than to her ideals. She finally had created a way for the forsaken to perpetuate themselves, her greatest dream and then they suicide to rez her, probably killing any hope she had.
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>>61366632
>Garrosh breaking every bone in Anduin's Body
Is this with the Bell, what/where is this story?
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>>61365046
Which she points out she did to cripple the alliance. She killed a small number of horde soldiers already doomed to save the rest. She explains to saurfang the horde is worth protecting and if he values honor above that he should ask a corpse what honor is.
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>>61366850
I didn't do the demon hunter orderhall but the Illidan's last wish story he tells the PC to take care of the world and protect it's citizens.
So they definitely wouldn't fuck off.
I guess it would depend on the demon hunter themselves viewing themselves as a member of the faction first or demon hunter first as to how they would defend it.
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>>61366850
If you're specifically talking about demon hunters, they're given as much direction as post-WotLK death knights are. In other words, none at all. Their over-arching goal of defeating the Legion is complete and it's up to the player to invent goals for their demon hunters.
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>>61366875
Forsaken continue to be raised post-Cataclysm. It even gets done during BFA.
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>>61366959
How? The Valkyr were the only ones that could do it. In cata Sylvanas could raise slave undead herself but she couldnt make the free willed "forsaken" though the shit she raised had the same model, seems in BFA they made it into skeletons to be clearer.
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>>61366875
>She finally had created a way for the forsaken to perpetuate themselves
This fucking stupid bullshit right here. What the fuck happened to the Forsaken hating their existence and their entire unlife being one of suffering and torment? What the fuck happened to every waking minute being a nightmare of misery and torture because everything tastes like ash, all you can feel is chilling cold and your own flesh slowly decaying and drooping off and every cherhished memory is tainted twisted by the same dark magic that now drives you and drives you to hate and despise everything around you. What the fuck happened to new Forsaken commiting mass suicide and the binding goal of the Forsaken up to and including Sylvanas being to prevent anyone else from having to experience this torture.
The Forsaken "race" doesn't want to perpetuate itself, it wants it to fucking stop and it wanted revenge for the shit that made them into the creatures they are now.
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>>61367089
I think the retconned all the "unlife is suffering" because Sylvanas wants to live forever and wants EVERYONE to be undead now. She even wanted to turn her sisters AND HER SISTER'S CHILDREN undead.
>>
Void elves are legit one of the worst parts of the setting that blizz have ever pulled out of their ass. Complete literal zero lore, asspull micro-race coming off the heels of one elf mary sue, yet more fucking elf player bait as if there's not already enough, undermines shadow priests even further who might as well be hurdling toward non-canon by this point. Just total fucking garbage.
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>>61367089
The "Before the Storm" book addresses this, a lot of Forsaken are just people who got turned into zombies and don't care for it and wouldn't wish it on others but are just kind of "making the best of it".

Sylvanas knows the more Forsaken the more powerful she is politically, so she wants more and more. She has gone totally mental at this point. She'd like to turn the people of Stormwind into undead, just like Arthas did!
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>>61367163
Light Zombies are worse.

Speaking of... Naaru were always awesome super good folk before Legion, what happened? Did we just all only meet nice ones?
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>>61366928
>>61366943

Fair enough, and as the Hand of Illidan, I'm pretty sure the best way to protect Azeroth and it's people would be to take my big fuck off space ship to wherever Sylvannas is hiding, give them more than than enough warning to get the civilians out, and then bomb the ever loving fuck out of it for like a month. And if the banshee whore survives that by coating herself in babies or whatever (look me in the eye and tell me she wouldn't do that if she thought it would work), I'll go down there myself and rip her fucking soul out, because going by canon strength there is no reason I (or any of the class hall leaders for that matter) shouldn't be able to annihilate her one on one. And I somehow doubt the Blood Elves on my team will have a problem with that. But the writers aren't going to let me do any of that because that would make too much sense and the expansion would be over in an in-universe day
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>>61366768
>Maybe not most. But at least they care about the lore.
In my experience most WoW-rp'ers only care about the lore as far as they can use it to justify their own headcanons, silly character concepts or whatever else silly idea they want to pull off.

>>61366781
>that's more of a commentary on the writing quality than RPers
That I can agree with.

Don't take me wrong WoW rp is fun, but the vast majority of it is not even near writing as bad as Blizzards.
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>>61367089
They never fucking had that did you do the forsaken quest zones at all? One of the big things the royal apothecary society was working on (prior to putress deciding varimathras was a trustworthy cool guy and that they should wipe out all life) was a way to do that.

When sylvanas started raising new forsaken its true some of them did ask to be returned to death, but around half jump at the chance to "live" again. The binding goals of the forsaken were always "revenge against the lich king" that was their entire reason for existence they never gave a fuck about other undead beyond that. Once they accomplished that they had to ask themselves "what now" sylvanas' answer was to try and kill herself (which led to life changing revelations and shit) but most other forsaken decided to start rebuilding lordaeron.
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>>61367207
>Naaru were always awesome super good folk before Legion, what happened?
They weren't if you went into the lore and minutia of side quests.
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>>61367207
Light zombies are dumb taken further, but at least there was groundwork, there's been forsaken priests for a while, using the power is supposed to be painful but hey they're priests they can file it under penance or whatever. MUH BOID ELBES are just more fucking wank for "M-m-muh purty elfu races" shitters.
>>
considering the absolute state of warcraft tech levels and cultural progress what comparable historical timeframe would you want to put the setting in?
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>>61367278
Basically modern, but with different bits of tech further ahead or further behind than others due to magic
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>>61367278
Its basically modern day but the majority of the player base (just like in real life) live in India and Africa where the tech level is abysmal and the first world seem like aliens.
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>>61367311
The average Indian shop has an air conditioner, they have nuclear power and modern medicine.
The people of the alliance and horde (besides the draenei, gnomes and goblins) are more like fucking lost tribes in the amazon rainforest.
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>>61366852
That was a really special situation
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>>61367349
Again, magic

Why bother with an air conditioner when the wind spirits you live near like you enough to keep your house cool?
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>>61367276
Void elves were also an idiotic idea. Id be much better if they were high elves instead.

Overally the first batch of Allied races is a bit lackluste. Horde ones suck. Tauren with antlers are meh and Nighborne are just weird looking and its just another race that doesnt fit the horde thematically.
And while I like Lightforged in general, Id prefer Broken draenei.
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>>61367399
I'd play Nightborne if I could separate myself from racials, I actually like their story, but their reason for joining the Horde is just so fucking stupid. I fucking hate the Nightborne racials so much too, why would they remove the pulse from Arcane Pulse but not lower the cooldown or do literally anything to make it not fucking trash.
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>>61367431
>playing for racials
>not playing for the roleplay/story
Why are you posting on /tg/?
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>>61367431
>>61367399
I would have loved to have actual nightfallen. It would have been weird to have people basically on the brink of death going adventuring constantly but them getting magic fruit and suddenly turning back to normal kind of ruined the the arc of accepting and using their mana hunger to fuck over the people still guzzling mana in the city.
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>>61367431
Their reason is basically ¨"Night Elves were mean to us!"
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>>61367470
To be fair, Tyrande is the hugest of cunts.
>>
nightborne should take in the poor night elf refugees that are forced to flee and their religion of peace
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>>61367494
>>61367499
Tbh, Night elves have every reason to distrust them.
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>>61362572
>but her eyes are golden/yellow instead of forsaken colored.
What colour Forsaken eyes glow? I always thought it's gold too in most cases of character creation.
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>>61364898
>You know that feeling you get when you're not quite able to tell whether the writer is writing characters that are intentionally wrong or if the writer just doesn't realize the problem?
>That's the feeling that I always got during the "We're going to take Lordaeron back for humanity" stuff. Like, Anduin is literally proposing to invade a foreign country and genocide its native people

It isn't genocide because they're already dead. Whether they can even be called the same people given the drastic physiological and mental differences is also iffy. Then there's the fact that Stormwind took in lots of Lordaeron refugees and that many of the still living humans in Lordaeron are still part of the Alliance.
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>>61361418
soon
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>>61366018
>including her own civilians
Saurfang already evacuated the Undercity.
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>>61365737
>atrocious WoW original characters like Bane
Baine was introduced in The Frozen Throne's Orc campaign.
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>>61366850
>people think Illidan ever gave a shit about anything but his own ego
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>>61367231
>In my experience most WoW-rp'ers only care about the lore as far as they can use it to justify their own headcanons, silly character concepts or whatever else silly idea they want to pull off.

Or what gives them the most unique-brownie-points attention - as can be seen with all those "unikke dont steal" tags they pile on themselves as titles or self-described classes. The general direction of WoW roleplaying is a joke these days (and probably has never been any good).
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>>61362162
>She initially only planned to capture it but it became clear the Alliance would never give up and would just constantly send ships to assault Teldrassil,
But that was the point. Forcing Alliance to go for Teldrassil forces them to not go for GIlneas, causing a rift between Anduin and Genn. And no Teldrassil, no port to go to to transport Azerite. Sylvanas had all the cards, and she threw them away.
>after she found out Saurfang spared Malfurion
Except she fucking didn't knew that at the time.
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>>61363042
>The world tree was a replacement for the well of eternity.
Actually it was placed to make it impossible for Legion to use the replacement Well of Eternity in a way they used the first one.
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>>61367844
I'd dig seeing an Old God corrupted world with enemies, it'd be like that Hearthstone expansion without the silliness.
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>>61363072
Void can't influence the Undead, so they want them removed.
>>
There was'nt a theory about N'zoth corrupting both sides, by some sort of "whispers" in a dungeon (which One i don't Remember).
Also talking like Magni is not controlled by the azeroth titan but a more sinister Power?
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>>61361599
The Cenarion Circle welcomes the fact that the false World Tree is finally eradicated and Sylvanas becomes its leader to protect nature from the Void Lords
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>>61368146
>Void can't influence the Undead

u wot m8
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>>61362284
yes
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>>61368199
>false world tree
>blessed by all the Aspects except Nozdormu because he knew he'd go crazy in the future
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>>61364051
>Or have individual zones that are different points in time like the War of the Shifting Sands, the Troll Wars, the War of the Ancients, etc.
I'd rather have WarCraft 4 to be a set of campaigns about various wars of the past.
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>>61366735
Garrosh was OK in TBC.
Thrall invited wrong Chieftain's son to the Horde.
Jorin Deadeye was the one he should take, not the Impotent Leader of Mag'har.
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>>61368092
>The general direction of WoW roleplaying is a joke these days (and probably has never been any good).
Tbh the worse the lore has got, in the same way the roleplaying has degenerated. Partly because it's hard to maintain a consistent character with Blizz wildly inconsistent writing and just generally because of how terrible the lore is getting.
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>>61363026
as long as there are bronze dragons, there will be infinites in the future. The only way to make sure no Infinites arise is genociding every dragon and dragon-loving species like elves and humans
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>>61368226
It can be blessed and still be tainted. Dragons are literally vectors for old god corruption, so it is possible
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>>61367844
We can dream, but that's all it'll ever be. 8.2 or whatever will be Azshara coming from the ocean to attack the new Islands, we get a Naga raid and then progress deeper to fight more Old God shit. Meanwhile, Sargeras' blade tips over and crushes Gadgetzan.
>>
How do you all feel about Orc Mages as a Class/Race combination? In regards to roleplay can an Orc Mage be a compelling character or will people just consider it ridiculous before giving it a chance to play out? I quite enjoy Warlocks as a class and I love the idea of an unconventional sorcerer type character/beastly scholar which is why I’m looking at Mages but Warlocks just all seem to be shoehorned into the “bad guy” role most of the time which puts me off.
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>>61368279
Whatever happened to Jorin?
>>
Alright, let me be direct with you: what chances does a human warrior have to score with the ladies of each of the races?
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Why is there a thread about this shitty video game in the /tg?
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>>61367361
Because they're pricks.
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>>61368332
Thank the Light that we have the Ebon Blade.
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>>61366070
Bladespire Ogres certainly liked their beer, which I assume was there prior to the players arriving on the scene.
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>>61367470
>Tyrande is a giant cunt and likens a bunch of embattled rebels to junkies and DURR HOW DO WE KNOW YOU WON'T DO THE SAME while they're being starved to death in process of their cause
>Liadrin actually approaches them like a sensible person, they figure out they have plenty in common between their people
>GEE I WONDER WHY THEY PICKED THAT SIDE

Nigra the "But they were just mean to them!!!" alliance whitewash got old a long time ago.
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>>61368539
>Warlocks just all seem to be shoehorned into the “bad guy” role most of the time which puts me off

Tehd Shoemaker is a good boy
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>>61368202
Spirits isn't the same as reanimated bodies.
And while Void bend the spirits to their will, the Void never drove undead insane.
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>>61368904
Marius is a fuckhead.
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>>61368553
He made right decision and remained in Nagrand.
I bet he wasn't surprised at all when he heard of Garrosh going full Hellscream.
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>>61368719
Why didn't the Ebon Blade just drop Acherus onto Undercity as soon as Teldrassil happened?
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>>61368925
Oh they don't matter anymore, the Legion is dealt with so none of the Order Halls exist anymore
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>>61367470
>>61368888
Tyrande
>The more people rebel, the less of our own will die during retaking of Suramar
Liadrin
>Let the citizen of Suramar know that Horde is on the way to help them!
Not mentioning that Blood Elves and Nightborne are closer, despite some Nightborne being old enough to remember Tyrande living there. Nightborne are as removed from Night Elves as High Elven line is.
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>>61368925
Firstly: War means more bodies and materials.
Secondly: as much as everyone hates Sylvanus, the Horde and Alliance squabbling really is beneath them now. Just like every other Order Hall and, arguably every PC
And thirdly, and most importantly: >>61368948.
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>>61367008
Lillian Voss is bestowed with the ability to create fully fledged Forsaken by Sylvanas, somehow. Val'kyr appear to be uninvolved.
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>>61355251
>"WE WUZ VICTIMS" mindset that if she doesn't end up as a major antagonist and eventual raid boss during BFA

Neither Jaina or Sylvanas will be a raid boss or some shit because Blizzard is incapable of creating any new likable characters to fill any sort of void left.
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>>61357374
Baine is a literal who in the minds of everyone, even if he's a good successor to Thrall's horde.

Besides, Blizzard is ETERNALLY stuck in the Warcraft2/W3 mindset of "There must always be a Orc vs Human war" no matter how retardedly it's forced.
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>>61369255
>No matter how retardedly it's forced

And it gets more forced with literally every expansion.
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>>61368975
Tyrande was sane enough to accept the Highborne from Dire Maul. Whose to say she wouldn’t come to term with that Nightborne and see them as a noble offshoot of their race.

Much like Lorthremar and the void elves.
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>>61369465
>Tyrande was sane enough

Because this has stopped being the case for a while.
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>>61369490
At least she didn’t go back to Darnassus before it was torched.

Didn’t know five demolishers could do so much damage.
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>>61366311
Much like DK's, they just serve as dogs of war. Peddling their skills against the latest big bad. Whenever one comes up.

They don't really have to concern themselves with material goods much since, well you know.
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Necromancers when?
Bards when?
Player homes when?
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>>61366718
Does Blizzard employee policy prevent hotgluing a Sylvanas figurine at your desk, or is it mandatory?
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>>61369572
those are some smug looking elves
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>>61369601
I'd really like an Arcane Knight or a proper magic-based Plate class/battlemage
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>>61369507
>Didn’t know five demolishers could do so much damage.
When you load napalm into those demolishers, yes they can.
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>>61369749
is there any other kind
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>>61369761
See, this is why i think heroic classes should be a main-say and then have classes beneath those.
Like, Demon hunter and DK? fine, good as is, but there should be a Necromancer, being the cloth version of DK and a Warlock, already the cloth variety of DH.

You could produce them for many classes really, Mage Knight would be an all too interesting and doable one, especially with the Kirin Tor being what they are.
Something akin to a Cavalier would be the tits too, it could be a heroic hunter-type class, who knows.
>>
>>61366729
This is why I've been leveling up fishing on my priest and getting the fish form from the artifact fishing pole - I'm gonna fish up that watery whore Azshara and smite her.
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>>61369882
there shouldn't be
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>>61362365
The Desolate Council weren't defecting. They were reuniting with their human kin for the first time since they turned in a peaceful summit organized between the Council and Calia, at least to reconcile with their former bretheren, and it was working. Sylvanas reasoned that any potential for human-Forsaken peace would undermine her, so she killed the Desolate Council and false-flagged the Alliance.
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>>61370329
And dont forget Sylvanas straight up murdered Calia right in front of Anduin.
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>>61370329
Have you actually read the novel?
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>>61370363
This. She murdered Calia because she knew that there was still enough sentiment toward Menethils who aren't Arthas to undermine her rule.
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>>61370329
What do you mean it's Calia that fucks everything up by revealing herself
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>>61370103
>>61369882
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>>61367089
>What are we, if not slaves to this curse?
>makes a bunch more undead
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>>61370834
What is it with Hordefags justifying murder and genocide when confronted with displays and self-defense?
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>>61370941
Given how dangerous Sylvanas is that action was pretty retarded
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>>61370971
I don't think anyone would imagine Sylvanas would be retarded enough to murder the crown princess of Lordaeron in front of everyone.
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>>61371029
She's chosen spite over strategic planning in pretty much every conflict she's ever been in. It's pretty in-character.
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>>61371029
She wanted the forsaken to join her, why wouldn't Sylvanas shoot her?

Also why would the forsaken even follow Calia after everything that's happened.
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>>61371076
Except Battle for Lordaeron were the Alliance charges in blindly and is saved 2 times by convenient timing were as Horde actually had tactics.
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>>61370892
delet
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>>61371105
>Also why would the forsaken even follow Calia after everything that's happened.
Because they were still loyal to Lordaeron, not Sylvanas. Calia is the only living heir and has a legitimate claim to Lordaeron. Also while most of the forsaken have given up on returning to their living relatives, there was still a significant amount of forsaken who were willing to give a life with their families a second go. Enough to be a serious threat to sylvanas if Calia wanted her throne back.
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>>61371263
>>61371263
>>61371263




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