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Let's say the smartest birds around (corvids and parrots mainly) become smart enough to develop a proper language and can communicate and understand complex and abstract concepts but they still don't have hands, therefore they can only work with their feet and beak. They're also the size of modern real life birds.
What kind of societies would they build?
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>This motherfucker has never seen how birds can handle tools without problems
YOU FUCKING FOOL
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>>61985162
They're really not that good at it, and most certainly lack the strength to work metal or stone. Bite-carved wood would be their best option.
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>>61985095
I mean there are some people who think dolphins are basically that, sooo...
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>>61985162
see
>>61985221

Hands are really, really important.
>inb4tentacles
Yeah, sorry, but no. With no proprioceptive sense, cephalopods are never going to get past hiding in coconut shell halves.
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>>61985095
>What kind of societies would they build?
What's to stop them from getting animals with opposable thumbs to help them?
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>>61985227
Yeah, but dolphins can't under any circumstances communicate with humans via speech, while birds definitely can.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewptevBIqNk&
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>>61985287
parrots and crows have hordes of trained raccoons and orangutans
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>>61985269
>>61985221
When the bird revolution comes, I shall tell them what you said about their claws. And I shall enjoy watching them use advanced bird-specific tools to scoop out your eyes and colon.
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>>61985269
>no proprioceptive sense
How do they shapeshift to mimic other animals

>>61985308
>parrots and crows have hordes of trained raccoons and orangutans
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!
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>>61985095
What makes you think that corvids don't already do this?
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>>61985340
Because they're still stupid enough to get murdered by cats, cars and windows on a sunny day.

Then again, that level of 'intelligence' seems pretty common on /tg/ as well.
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>>61985227
>soooo...
Fuck off back to Fumbler/Plebbit/Normiebook with your max-faggotry speech conventions
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>>61985308
That's an interesting idea. Creating stuff would become feasible but slow. Maybe they would breed them the same way we bred dogs?
The size difference sounds like a problem, though.
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>>61985316
They don't have very good precision. See, the tentacles make the decisions regarding details. The central brain of a cephalopod just says something like "grab that thing" and the sort of "subprocessors" in the tentacles work out what they need to do. So just grabbing something or wadding up in a certain area to make the body look a different shape is one thing. However, they don't have any real sense of where their tentacles are or what they are doing. Vertebrates have a pretty precise idea of where their limbs are located even when they can't see them. An octopus or cuttlefish, for example, has to be looking at their tentacles to actually know where they are and what position they are in. This is an incredibly important thing to be able to sense properly when something needs to be able to coordinate all their fingers while thinking of something else the way just about anything requiring precise manual dexterity asks of an organism. The sense of "my arm is over my head and my digits are spread out," for example, that seems so inherent to just existing, is actually instead almost unique to the vertebrate nervous system, with the exception of certain arthropods.
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>>61985314
W-what are they going to do with my colon?
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>>61985314
Why would they use tools to do that when they have beaks and talons? You seem to be missing the point of what drives toolmaking behaviors.
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>>61985227
are they not?
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>>61985624
probably not on the level of say, the caledonian crow or African grey parrot, no.
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>>61985647
The caledonian crow is smarter than the american crow?

I thought the american crow was the smartest corvid
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>>61985662
Nigga pretty much every corvid down to the bluejay has object permanence and theory of mind without being able to see another's gaze, they can pass the fucking mirror test. No goddamn dolphin can do that shit. Dolphinfags are the product of not being able to rationalize a nonmammal being the closest nonhominid to having human-level consciousness
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>>61985727
>theory of mind
How come any animal that develops this also instantly develops an irresistible urge to prank other animals? It's like the immediate conclussion to it. Learning about the minds of others is the first step to become an asshole.
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>>61985662
It used to be, but we all know the state of the modern American educational system.
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>>61985727
Dolphins absolutely pass the mirror test

They can't do the other shit because you're right, they aren't as smart as crows, but they do pass the mirror test
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>>61985770
Realizing that others are individuals with their own thoughts, feelings, desires and perspectives different from yours is the first step towards genuine interest in others. Interest in others is the first step towards sadism. It makes sense, anon.
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>>61985774
It's especially hard on inner city blackbirds.
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>>61985840
>blackbirds
Look, I'm not racist, BUT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDIPvg-g3sg
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>>61985305

Maybe it's a chewbacca situation and we just need to learn to understand them.

>>61985396

Imagine being this autistic lol
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>>61985366
Exactly. Tons of humans die to stupid shit too.

They're capable of verbally passing information. So they're honestly Sunday doing the stuff that OP asked for.
>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/30/grudge-holding-crows-pass-on-their-anger-to-family-and-friends/#.W5vvbTNOl-E
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>>61986072
Interesting as that behaviour is, it's more about imitating what other crows do than actually being told about it, which is a very common thing amongst all kinds of birds. Fantastic memory and recognition skills, though.
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>>61986139
>it's more about imitating what other crows do than actually being told about it,
I think that might be a little humanocentric way of looking at it.

I might be misremembering, but I thought that they had discovered regional dialects amoung crows. It direct stub that far fetched to think they have at least simple proto languages.
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>>61985927
We can do statistical analysis of their vocalizations to see how much information is being conveyed. Guess who wins when you put dolphin calls and corvid vocalizations up against each other? Here's a hint: the winner has feathers.
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>>61986595
>proto language
Not quite but they're almost there. Kind of a proto-proto language
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>>61986595
Dolphins also have that, but as >>61986655 says, they convey less information than crows
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>>61986698
Dolphins are actually kind of a step down from the common ancestor they shared with elephants, desu. Underwater life isn't as stimulating. We just always thought dolphins are smarter because we thought elephants were just monstrous brutes for the longest time.
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While I have nothing much to add to the idea of corvids being "uplifted". I think corvids are cool & it's a clever idea, I just want to say

Fuck dolphins & apes & everyone who thinks they are intelligent. They should all be rounded up & killed
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>>61987682
>apes should all be rounded up and killed
Anon, you do realize WE'RE apes, right?
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>>61987758
All in all it'd be for the best.
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>>61987880
Death will not bring absolution, anon, only oblivion!
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so favorite bird /tg/?

I like kookaburras
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>>61987758
No, we are humans. There's a fucking difference & you know it. Don't be pedantic
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>>61988182
Secretary birds are cool, but probably don't make good wizard/sorcerer familiars. Corvids and owls are cool but overdone. Vultures are more likely to hang with necromancers or mummies. Parrots are for pirates, but I like them too. Tinamous are small enough for familiar status and cooler than kiwis, but still flightless. Maybe a hoatzin works?
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>>61985770
>>61985805
As I’ve said in other threads before, emotion is a natural byproduct of intelligence, and those emotions can include sadism and hate as much as joy and mischief.
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>>61988420
I had a potoo familiar once, in a setting where magic had gone wrong and there were a lot of serious mutants crawling around. Most people thought that my magic was also a bit corrupted and that's how I ended up with that muppet looking thing, but it's actually just like that naturally.
He was a complete asshole of a familiar though. The rest of the party wanted to strangle him.
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>>61988344
All humans are apes, but not all apes are humans. All swords are weapons, but not all weapons are swords. Saying a human is not an ape is like saying a sword is not a weapon.
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>>61988513
Swords are proud symbols of knightly virtue and heroism!
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>>61988460
>potoo
Those are the ones with the giant mouths and eyes, right? Yeah, I can see where that'd get some weird looks.
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>>61989261
It's this one.
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>>61989313
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>>61989379
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>>61985095
I swear I participated in a thread about this months ago.
>bright color decorations to keep track of your allies and enemies in a large battle
>multiple woven twig 'nests' on different locations to rest in when visiting an area
>fire is hard to make but can destroy pretty much anything they know how to build within minutes
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>>61986655
>Here's a hint: the winner has feathers.
The peruvian feathered dolphin?
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>>61988344
Humans are a subset of apes, dude.
>>
As is, large parrots are basically like toddlers with a combination nutcracker, screwdriver, and papercutter instead of a mouth. They love to get in places they shouldn't be, and are capable of doing so as long as those places aren't blocked by something made of metal. With enough time, they'll just burrow through wood or plastic, one massive chunk at a time.
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>>61988460
>>61989313
What are potoo like, mentally? Are they smart and/or characterful relative to bird average, or just random shits who got their fame from looking like funny muppets and being great at imitating branches?
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>>61989434
Their plumage is so majestic in the spring...
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>>61985308
>>61985443
I'm not feeling it.
You can't have an equal symbiosis because the birds have nothing to offer the larger mammals.
And you can't have taming and domestication because they can't cage or trap them.

How about squirrels? They could domesticate squirrells or squirrel-like creatures to help collect food.
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>>61989507
I think they're kinda like owls. During the day, they just kinda pretend to be tree branches, and at night, they catch bugs and make some disturbing sounds.
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>>61985095
>Some corvids have strong organization and community groups. Jackdaws, for example, have a strong social hierarchy, and are facultatively colonial during breeding. Providing mutual aid has also been recorded within many of the corvid species.

>Young corvids have been known to play and take part in elaborate social games. Documented group games follow "king of the mountain", or "follow the leader", patterns. Other play involves the manipulation, passing, and balancing of sticks. Corvids also take part in other activities, such as sliding down smooth surfaces. These games are understood to play a large role in the adaptive and survival ability of the birds.

>Mate selection is quite complex and accompanied with much social play in the Corvidae. Youngsters of social corvid species undergo a series of tests, including aerobatic feats, before being accepted as a mate by the opposite sex.

>Some corvids can be aggressive. Blue jays, for example, are well known to attack anything that threatens their nest. Crows have been known to attack dogs, cats, ravens, and birds of prey. Most of the time these assaults take place as a distraction long enough to allow an opportunity for stealing food.

Let's see. So they keep playing games their entire lives. Trickery is an important skill for survival. (Perhaps in an uplifted form this would develop into an affinity for riddles and puzzles, to keep the mind trained?)
There is a social hierarchy, that sets the basis for them understanding the concept of government.
they do not migrate unless food becomes scarce. It wouldn't take long for them to develop the concept of agriculture.
Feudalism seems like it'd fit them. They could lay claim to a broad area as belonging to a certain family, the responsibility for planting berries and the rights to harvest them would go to them, as well as scavenging rights.
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>>61989724
>It wouldn't take long for them to develop the concept of agriculture
The problem here is not so much the concept as the ability itself to perform such tasks. As it stands it's physically impossible for a crow ir a magpie to work the Earth. They could plant seeds and hope for the best, but not much more.

As per the feudalism thing, I feel like some sort of tribalism might work better, where they all work together each with their own task. There would be organizers and leaders, but not a strong political figure.
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>>61989999
They could work in teams to drag a stick around to till a bit of earth.
Yeah, they can't dig too deep, but they also don't need as much food per individual.
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>>61990025
Sounds like too much effort. Crows are more known for using other animal's efforts in their favour. Maybe they put the stick in something bigger?
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>>61990025
>>61989999
I'm saying no heavy instruments.
They can manipulate twigs. That means woven baskets, small prying tools for getting insects and maybe scratching language into clay. After that their technology hits a hard cap.

Bird 'agriculture' wouldn't look like organized rows of crops. They'd intentionally bury a fruit into the groud with their beaks to get a bush there, hoping to improve the yield of their defendable territory.
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>>61985919
das rite when you pussy cant defend your food we take it cats cant fly
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>>61989484
>>61988513
For fucks sake. I know this. That is not the fucking point. When I say kill all the apes, you know what I mean. To ignore basic conversationial understanding is as pedantic as Can/May I go to the bathroom bullshit. Fuck off.

Humans are apes, but when someone says apes are in the fucking zoo, do you think they are talking about humans?
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>>61988513
Yeah but if I tell ypu the governments gonna take all your weapons you expect to keep your butterknife right?
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>>61990279
Teamwork and manipulating animals. Crows and ravens are famous for harassing things and herding them around for amusement. They could tie a heavy stick to a goat and then bite it's ankles until it goes where they want.
They're capable of making rope and shaping pieces of wood by chipping and shredding it with their beaks. That's the two big parts for a pulley system. They can make the tools to make the tools to make bigger tools.
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>>61985620
>Corvids and parrots
>Meat-ripping beaks and talons
Are you retarded on purpose or simply finished American education?
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>>61990406
Corvids are meat ripping. They eat everything, including roadkill.
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>>61990393
>They could tie a heavy stick to a goat and then bite it's ankles until it goes where they want.
no way you could plow a field with that method

It's all well and good trying to justify ways they could maybe mimick human inventions, but if it doesn't flow naturally out of their situation it doesn't supply you with the verismilitude you hope to get out of bottom-up worldbuilding.
What kind of inventions would naturally develop out of their lifestyle and limitations?
>>
Why are you all guys ignoring parrots on this? They may like the problem-solving skills, but they're incredibly curious, fast-learners, and much more capable of understanding verbal communication than any other non-human animal on Earth as far as we know, apart from being highly social. I feel like the potential for a bird society is higher in parrots than in corvids, even if their autism-like behaviour may say otherwise.
They also love experimenting with things to understand the way they work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRsfOGJ5lZg
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>>61988420
>Vultures are more likely to slay necromancers or mummies.
ftfy. Vultures are the true heroes, cleaning up the corpses and bodies all around. They would absolutely despise necromancers fucking with their food source and messing with their natural order.
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>>61985308
>parrots and crows have hordes of trained raccoons and orangutans
haha and what if they had like this race of monkeys they groomed from early on to serve them like just guided this one race to spread all over the world to help them and feed them bread you know like as a joke haha
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>>61990684
>vulture society
>everybody avoids them because they're usually linked to death and necromancy
>they're actually all paladins who put a lot of effort into cleansing the world from it
Armoured vultures crusading around when?
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>>61990753
>>61990684
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>>61990753
>Armoured vultures crusading around when?
Probably never, so long as people keep giving their cows aspirin. As strong as their immune systems are, their kidneys are tragically delicate
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>>61990436
So American education it is...
Compare please generalist with scavenging and raptorial
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>>61990834
>they aren't the most efficient meat rippers so they cannot pull your eyeballs out and don't eat roadkill and large animal carcasses even though they provably do so with few issues
So this is the power of obsessed foreigners.
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>>61990357
you know you could always stop posting, instead of continuing to look like a retard
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>>61990357
That's not the best example, there are also humans there maintaining the enclosures, visiting, et cetera, which means they are also "in" the zoo.

>>61990618
Man, what classes would parrots even prefer, assuming D&D?
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>>61986633
Good job he didn't pull the camera up or he would have reversed engineered it by now.
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>>61990357
But there are humans in the zoo.
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>>61991093
>what classes would parrots even prefer, assuming D&D?
>non-stop screaming
>violent and aggresive socialization
Barbarians. Certainly not rogues.
They're also commonly strict monogamous so no bards.
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>>61990924
Not even him, but generalists literally can't rip, you moron. They can peck, but they lack the important bit - the hook - to rip things. It takes to be a complete idiot to not know such basic fucking difference and instead goes all "O B S E S S E D" rather than fucking getting your head low and shut the fuck up when you are wrong. Cunts like you are the very reason why every single Yuropoor is giving shit to me.
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>>61991177
>it can't rip a soft and squishy eyeball because it doesn't have a hook
Did you know that animals aside from humans can thrust, follow the thrust up with a twist or tilt, and then follow *that* up with a pull? I feel like you didn't. You and that foreigner should get together and be obsessed together, you've got the mindset for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdchuLfO6go
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>>61991225
>Be wrong
>Keep pushing
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>>61991177
Not that anon, but I've personally witnessed more than once a black-headed gull (no hook on the beak) killing a dove and then eating the corpse. They might not be good at ripping meat, but they can do it when needed.
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>>61991225
You really don't get it, do you, you stupid nigger?
Next thing you going to say ducks are perfectly capable of flight fishing, after all they are birds and they can lift things with their beaks.
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>>61991317
>literally ignores video evidence of a raven tearing a hunk of meat up
Or wait, do you think eyeballs are tougher than cuts of steak? I thought you foreigners ate stuff like that. Maybe you don't get normal meat regularly? You should come stateside and compare the differences between soft eyeballs and firm meat.
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>>61991346
See >>61991349
It's not my fault you can't watch a video or envision a twist and pull maneuver.
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>>61991333
Jesus fucking Christ, is this some moron convention or something? Do you even understand what "generalist" mean? And how it, by name alone, could differ from "raptorial"?
If you followed the conversation, you would know it's about the dense motherfucker assuming this piece of shit >>61985620 without even realising it doesn't fucking apply to families mentioned by OP
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>>61991349
THE FUCK EYEBALLS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH TOOL MAKING AND HAVING DIFFERENT TYPE OF BEAK YOU ABSOLUTE NIGGER?! YOU ARE MISSSING THE POINT SO HARD AT THIS POINT I'M PRETTY CERTAIN YOU EITHER ARE BAITING OR A COMPLETE, MOUTHBREATHING CRETINE!
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>>61991443
You seem to have started the conversation a couple posts too high and assumed this was about tool making. This was about >>61990406 being wrong.
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>>61991419
this anon said:
>>61991177
generalists literally can't rip, you moron

That's just not true, as demonstrated above. If you're gonna go full autist on this, don't make exaggerated claims, stick to actual facts like "they're not proficient at it".
That being said, parrots do have curved beaks with hook, pretty good at ripping stuff and carving wood.
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>>61991468
Go literally 2 posts higher, you dense motherfucker, to see who was wrong in that exchange. The entire fucking point was how some stupid nigger assumed "birds don't use tools, because they have beaks and talons for that", without ever stopping to realise the tool-using birds DO NOT have beaks and talons designed for predatory lifestyle and thus have to compensate.
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>>61991526
Parrots are also surprisingly good at meat ripping. The big ones can give you a new facial piercing if they want to, and mine likes to eat chicken once in a while. Turns out that very pointy and sharp beaks with high pressure muscles behind them are good at cutting a lot of things.
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>>61991543
For someone so eager to talk about other people's educations, you'd think you'd have learned what a tangent is. Like, it's got a Latin root, it probably exists in at least a couple of your languages. Oh well, I guess that's what's to be expected out of foreigners.
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>>61991526
>Bird is clearly shown pecking
>Barely can catch the meat due to wrong shape of beak
>Commentary follows
>Yyya lmao totally ripping, my bros!
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>>61991584
>Barely can catch the meat due to wrong shape of beak
>compensates by twisting
>literally successful, swallows lengths of meat
>can't possibly do this to something softer and with more conducive geometry
The entire point of the video was to show that they can do it to meat, if not well. Which means they would be able to do it to eyeballs, because eyeballs are smaller and softer and the skin that covers them has a convenient edge that could easily be peeled or used as leverage for tearing
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>>61985095
I think James Blish wrote a novel where this happened.
"Midsummer Century" I believe it was called.
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>>61985095
Birds can already form sentences, and it's not just parrots.

Some also understand analogy.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/crows-understand-analogies/
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I like the different approaches in the "food hanging on a string" problem.
The crow started pulling the string up, stepping on it, pulling it up more, stepping on it, pulling it up, etc until they had the food.
The parrot looked at the food, looked at the handler, looked back at the food, looked back at the handler, and then vocalized the "fetch" command that the handler had taught it.
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>>61985316
its not none, just not very good. its strongest in vertebrates and some arthropods.
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>>61989519
>You can't have an equal symbiosis because the birds have nothing to offer the larger mammals.
what do humans have to contribute to Aurochs?
they have a civilization creating food.
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>>61994019
Which arthropods? Why is it so good in them?
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>>61994047
>what do humans have to contribute to Aurochs?
protection from other predators, food, water, shelter
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Why has nobody posted the neolithic bird images yet?
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>>61994132
A specific set of those exists?
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>>61994110
sufficiently advanced birds could also do this.

build woven doghouses for them to live in, use the pack animal to dig river trenches and till soil for them to get them water and food, use their aerial view to alert of predators earlier.

the symbiosis trade is brute strength and life-improving comprehension, the same pact we have with pretty much every quadraped we don't use for food.
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>>61994048
Proprioception is easiest to tell with joints, measuring muscle tension changes with Chordotonal organs.

No muscle-based joints, bad proprioception.
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>>61991177
There's a subspecies of sparrows that will rip the heads off of native birds to take their nesting grounds.

Don't mess with seed eaters.
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>>61985095
>doesn't know about the societies the birds hold already
>mindless sheep who just lets birds do whatever such vile creatures do
>not diligently chasing the foul sorcerers of wind off
>trusting them anywhere near your house, wife, children

You fool. birds are not, and should never be trusted
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>>61985095
>What kind of societies would they build?
I was taught that they would steal our trappings and continue on a similar, if more feathery path
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>>61985095
I would suggest you make them ostrich- or emu-sized, or at least bigger than they are now, just for the element of physical strength
>>61985221
if they're sentient they can build mechanisms that aren't so unwieldy and then just apply power
even something as simple as a hammer or a crowbar could be a big help
>>61985308
interesting
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>>61989519
Crows already have symbiotic relationships with wolves. They'll attach themselves to a pack and fly around scouting out prey for them and using special calls to alert the wolves, in exchange for a share of the food.
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>>61996487
>crowbar
Whoa, racist much?
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>>61985095
They'd probably form a symbiotic relationship with a more capable civilization, where they're accepted as little feathery homies for their human bros.
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>>61989424
Is that Heihei?
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>>61994047
>what do humans have to contribute to Aurochs?
Extermination.
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>>62000570
Why couldn't he use the first stick to get ehr food instead of using it to get another, different stick?
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>>62000805
Too short. He checked, too.
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>>61994047
That falls under the capture and tame category.
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>>62000600
>Using bait to fish
Smart. Something tells me that crows would make excellent 4channers
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>>62001249
Hahah.
Yeah.
Would.
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>>62001275
>On the internet, no one knows you're a crow
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>>62001249
>he doesn't know
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>>62001275
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>>61985095
>What kind of societies would they build?
We'll never find out.

The moment birds reach the level of development where they learn that you can start a fire by rubbing sticks together long enough, mankind will perish in flames. We have no defense against crows leaving smoldering embers on our roofs at night.
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>>62001594
https://www.newsweek.com/australian-hawks-caught-starting-fires-force-prey-wide-open-spaces-774193
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>>62001594
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>>61985456
Learn somethin new every day, thanks
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>>62001701
>Redwing Blackbird
>Obligate riperian species
>Requires thick expanses of reeds, thrush, and other tall aquatic vegetation
>firebug
This triggers my autism for some reason. Honestly, an open grassland species would've been much better choice, like a Painted Bunting
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>>61985456
>The sense of "my arm is over my head and my digits are spread out," for example, that seems so inherent to just existing
yeaaah
totally normal
that's why I have it
I'm a vertebrate just like all of you
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>>61988182
>>61988420
>>61989494
I've been toying with the idea of a Dire Cockatoo for a while now. Say about 2 storeys tall, same curious and destructive but not unfriendly personality. Sonic screech can break windows and shake apart the shoddier wooden houses. Beak would do insane damage, but it doesn't properly bite unless it feels threatened. Feathers are highly valued, as they are light and strong enough to be woven into a kind of kevlar, highly valuable armour for rogues and archers who need to keep mobility. Are there any cool things about cockatoo's I'm missing?
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>>62002076
Depends on what kind of cockatoo.
Black Palm Cockatoos not only look like they carry death and despair, they also commonly use branches as drumsticks to check if a tree is hollow or not. Rose Cockatoos don't have any notorious behaviour, but they're as /fa/ as it gets.
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>>62002138
>Black Palm Cockatoo
Holy crap these guys are fantastic, definitely going to use them as the dire cockatoo when I get round to it. How vocal are they? If I were to get one and call it Chernobog could I train it to sing Night On Bald Mountain and re-enact the demon scene from Fantasia?
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>>62002568
They don't appear to be very vocal, but they love to drum.
https://youtu.be/Lhz4XsK88lY
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Bump for more birb lore
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>>62006664
Further proof that vultures are the paladins of nature.
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>>62008041
Fact: bearded vultures are just feathered dragons.
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>>61996140
>You fool. birds are not, and should never be trusted
But my pet parrot Dexter will remember all the spaghetti and preening I gave him come the revolution...right?
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>>62008235
>pet parrot Dexter will remember
Most likely. Parrots can live pretty damned long, and have good memory.
If you own a Parrot though I absolutely MUST feel you to make sure he's properly put in will and sent to live with someone responsible should you die. Parrots are sometimes known to outlive their owners, and as a result often don't have a good family to go to when their owner dies. Then they start to get sad, and slowly began to die from eating less and less. A lonely parrot is a sad existence
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>>62008418
isnt that mostly grey parrots that live as long as humans
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>>62009309
birds in general can live surprisingly long
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Are kakapo the equivalent of dwarves to the bird races?
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>>61985095
>What kind of societies would they build?
One that's pretty much the same as what they have now, except they would talk to each other.
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>>62010838
>Why are we still here, just to suffer.webm
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>>61985221
We had an armless guy in china make fucking robot arms with his feet like Tony Stark. They'll figure it out.
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The other anons are right. They're basically stuck in their ways without opposable thumbs. Of course, this is without considering interaction with Human civilization. With advanced intelligence and speech capabilities, they could integrate themselves into human society and develop a unique, advanced civilization based on that relationship.
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>>61994132
>>61994436
You mean these?
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>>62011036
>They're basically stuck in their ways without opposable thumbs.
That's what zygodactyl, heterodactyl, and pamprodactyl feet are for
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>>62011769
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>>62011900
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>>62012024
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>>62012042
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>>61985927
We don't need to understand them
We need to kill them
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>>62011869
Except you also need to be standing while using your hands, so no.
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>>62012063
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>>62012078
Most birds can stand on one leg and use their feet for precise interaction easy enough
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>>62012137
Yeah I can stand on one hand, but it won't let me do craftsmanship or agriculture. What a dumb post.
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>>62012078
They can stand on one leg and use their beaks if that's not enough
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>>62012107
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>>62012159
For some reason, I feel like this bird should be holding a banana or a bag of popcorn. Or maybe a cigar?
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>>62012151
between one hand and one mouth you can do a good little bit if you're really trying.
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>>62012151
>he can't slide a rock across the ground with his beak
>he can't make little holes on the floor with his talons
>he can't grab seeds from a bag and put them in the holes
>he can't sweep the dirt to close the hole with his feet
>he can't sprinkle some water on it by holding a tiny jug with his beak and tilting it towards the ground
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>>62012210
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>>62012255
Lord I can just hear that smugfuck going "neener neener neener!"
I was half hoping the other bird would just punch him
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>>62012183
>>62012235
>>62012290
You can't do any advanced or detailed work with a beak and one leg. Stop being ridiculous. I swear people just say stupid shit like this just to be contrarian.
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>>62012627
>You can't do any advanced or detailed work
Many bird tongues have levels of manual dexterity equal to human fingers. Parrots especially
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>>62012691
Even if I truly believed that, it's still one digit compared to two handfuls. A tongue doesn't have palms, it doesn't have a wrist, it doesn't have 4 fingers and thumb and it sure as hell doesn't have the full range of an arm. Is a bird going to forge a shovel with its tongue and then dig a trench? Fuck no. Stop this.
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>>61985095
Do the parrots and the corvids help eachother? Seems that the corvids would be better at holding tools in their beaks, while the parrots would be better at carving wood into tools and manipulating other animals.

As general points:
Smart birds would eventually learn and transfer to kater generations the skill to start and maintain fires. And the skill to weave and braid any material soft enough for their strength level. Could carry & store water in gourds. Would probably be able to peel intact portions of skins, and eventually learn to tan them. Knapping would take a lot of teamwork, but could probably be achieved by loading stones into frames, then dropping larger stones onto them in the hope that they'd split into the desired shape. This might be too much effort, but the overall small size of birds actually might make it easier to shatter rocks into lots of small shards and just sort those into 'useful or not.' Easiest skill of all would be building sturdy super-nests to dwell in and store useful tools.

RE agriculture:
Since the birds are suddenly quite smart, it seems that manipulating other animals into very basic tasks (killing unwanted shrubs, running off cliffs to die & be eaten, guarding the nests, selective breeding, digging up soft wet soil) would be possible with a combination of mimicry, bribery, and harassment.
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>>62012716
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Once they figure out a basic concept of relative hardness, carving wood, bone, and even stone is largely a matter of patience.
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>>62012007
I've had cats who would attack themselves too. Guess it's some kind of berserk thing.
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>>62012716
Birds can already dig holes
if they wanna do it more efficiently they could attach some kinda paddle to their feet or something
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>>62012774
I just hate stupid ideas. You're taking a great concept and wasting it. Think about how human-level intelligent birds would interact with human society. Suddenly, you have birds using bird adapted cell phones, piloting tiny drones and participating in diplomacy. They would humans to create so many bird adapted technologies, like bird ergonomic guns or tiny bird instruments. What would bird poetry be like? Or space travel? (they would make great astronauts because it would take so much less fuel to send a tiny bird into space rather than a fully grown man). The possibilities are endless.
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>>62012862
>Birds can already dig holes
Yeah, so can humans. But we still need tools to do anything meaningful.
>if they wanna do it more efficiently they could attach some kinda paddle to their feet or something
And how would they create a decent foot attached shovel without being able to create due to the lack of hands?
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>>62012920
They can hit a rock until it has the right shape and then tie a vine around it or something.
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>>62012965
Yeah, totally.
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>>62012965
Ultimately, bird society must be more cooperative than human ones, given the limitations of their appendages.

>>62012908
The rest of the thread is pretending humans don't exist. Obviously if they can talk to a pre-existing civilization, then all their problems with tools are very easily solved.
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>>62013387
You could have a hundred birds try to change a lightbulb, but they wouldn't be able to do it.
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>>62012716
forge no. carve possibly.
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>>62012716
i'm not saying birds are as well equipped, I'm saying do they need to be?

they only have to reach the neolithic before their disabilities start getting replaced with technological advancements same as us.
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>>62013429
Considering most birds have the dexterity to grasp and manipulate large round object, such as large walnuts, and can lift and hold them up easily to chin height, I'm pretty sure they can handle a lightbulb well enough
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>>62013612
>do they need to be?
Yes.
>they only have to reach the neolithic before their disabilities start getting replaced with technological advancements same as us.
What? That makes zero sense. They're going to replace their lack of hands with sharp rocks and simple machines? Hell, they can't even produce neolithic technology with their physiology. Good luck trying to make a potter's wheel or plow with a bird body. You would need robotics more advanced than our current day capabilities in order to give bird's the fine manipulation they need to make any sort of human technology more advanced than an acheulean axe. The reason human civilization developed to this point is because of bipedalism which freed up our highly dexterous hands and allowed our cranial capacity to grow.
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>>62013630
They would shatter a bulb. They aren't nearly dexterous enough to hand such a delicate object. Besides, their feet cannot reach above their heads, which is a must for changing a bulb. They also would not even be able to twist the bulb into place because their short legs do not have the same range of movement as the human wrist/arm. Sure, they can crack walnuts and are very good at that specialize task, but they are completely unsuited to the tasks required to create and handle advanced technologies.
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>>62013683
Why do you keep assuming birds have no means of manual dexterity? Did you sleep through your zoology classes or something?
Also, considering that many of them already have physical traits that allow them manual labor capabilities already equal to shovels and knives, and are already capable of weaving containers and structure themselves, thus making a potter's wheel pointless, they can easily adjust to a decent level of civilization

>>62013719
>They would shatter a bulb. They aren't nearly dexterous enough to hand such a delicate object.
You're full of shit. Many birds have a level of tactile sense to modulate gripping strength. Further, we can also assume that increased cognitive awareness as originally supposed in the OP can also further improve this capacity for active tactile sense and adjustment. Please stop taking your biology lessons from a cereal box, you're just emberassing yourself.
>Besides, their feet cannot reach above their heads, which is a must for changing a bulb
Many species can though, and otherwise their ability to manuever in 3d space and the capacity to cling to difficult surfaced and cielings (especially in the case of pendulous nest builders and adhesive cliff nesters such as swallows) can easily degate this issue
>Range of motion
Again, also completely and utter wrong.

Please stop talking. It's clear you have no actual knowledge of the field of ornithology, and all your bitching and constant moaning about "much human form" makes you come across as a cancerous HFYfag
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>>62013840
>Why do you keep assuming birds have no means of manual dexterity?
They do not have the level of dexterity needed to create things more advanced that stone age tools.

Honestly, you're just a plain fucking idiot. The bird form cannot do the things you want them to do. You're completely unrealistic and horribly ignorant about the evolution of civilization. Go study anthropology and history for a few decades. Also, go to bed.
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>>62013884
>Go study anthropology and history for a few decades.
No thanks, wildlife biology and natural resource management is much more practical and is less likely to leave me a jobless NEET
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>>62001594
>They're using fire now
I give it 500 years before they're at the level of neandrethals.
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>>62012627
alright Einstein, did you forget birds can fly? if they're flying they have both legs free
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>>62014242
They can't hover. Most birds do not have VTOL wings. Hummingbirds can hover, but their have neither the beak or appendages required to manipulate something like a lightbulb, much less anything that's actually complex.
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>>62013683
>>62013719
>birds have no fine manipulation
do you know how exacting some of them are about their nests? have you watched the WEBMs in this thread? more than a few species can manipulate small objects with precision
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>>62012078
you can also your hands while sitting, and many if birds can go into a sitting or lying position that frees up both feet and their beak, cf >>62012007
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>>62012920
they could weave it, just like, I don't know, every single bird that already weaves a nest
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>>62014301
A nest is a lot simpler than even something like a Lower Palaeolithic axe.

>>62014333
Yes, they're going to sit down and make a sickle or plow. Then they're going to sit down and sow their fields. Genius.
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>>61985305
>Yeah, but dolphins can't under any circumstances communicate with humans via speech
I mean, we're pretty sure they have their own (proto)language, so it's just a matter of parsing it and we should be able to have some manner of conversation with them. Don't know how fruitful it's going to be, they might just talk about rape all the time.

Soon a time will come with dolphins post on 4chan, trying to warn the world about the SJW genocide being perpetrated upon them for the mass triggerings of thousands of innocent landwhales.
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>>61990392
Not in jolly old England.
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>>61985456
This sounds like a load of bullshit. What experiments can be run to asses proprioception? Some arthropods have it, it ain't hard, I honestly think you just need to have muscle to have it.
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>>62009309
Amazons, macaws, cockatoos and pretty much any middle to big-sized parrot can live up to 60 years or more. It's the one big advantage they would have over corvids.
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>>62014358
>Birds have to use tools and devices designed for humans
>They wouldn't develop tools and neolithic agricultural practices that fit them, synthetically selecting plant features that favor most yield for their capability of work with tools
Your disgusting lack of imagination is only rivaled by your ignorance of basic sapient development
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>>62010996
Now this I gotta read. Got a link?
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>>62014358
They just need to pull a string while walking forwards in order to plow
Pretty sure they can do that if pretty much any other animal can
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>>62019430
They can't even weave a string, much less create a plow.
>>
Why is it that whenever we have this sort of thread, some self-proclaimed expert always needs to come in and insist that blatantly non-human creatures can only achieve any sort of technology or society, by directly copying the exact same processes and ways of humans, as though there is literally no other way to do anything whatsoever?
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>>62020238
The same narcissism that leads humans to see in themselves the image of the divine.
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>>62020238
Right back at you. How the fuck is a bird going to make a plow? Or build an irrigation system? How about creating metals? Build a forge? A water pump? Mine for ore? Domesticate and care for animals? Develop medicine? Make paper? Chop wood? Transport mass amounts of goods? Build a wheel? Make movable print? Build windmills? Much less any piece of technology more complicated than these comparatively simple inventions needed for civilization. They just do not have the physiology. What the fuck is your problem? You're living in a fantasy world.
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>>62020378
>STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN'T REAL ON /TG/
Wow this is some top quality 'tism.
Again you're just saying because they can't develop technology exactly like humans that they won't develop any form of technology.
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>>62020516
You have nothing to contribute. You have no thoughts. You have no insight. You're just shitposting.
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>>62020238
its probably the same HFY autist every time.
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>>62020541
>y-you have no arguement
Except for the part where I told you how and why you're wrong.
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>>62020580
You've got tears in your eyes, kid. Buck up.
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>>62013683
>They're going to replace their lack of hands with sharp rocks and simple machines
that and domestication, the other big halmark of the neolithic.
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>>62020378
For civilization to exist, only three things are needed

>A sustainable, scalable source/sources of food
>A means of communicating abstract ideas to other sapiences
>A pressure, internal or external, to innovate

A plow is not necessary for civilization, it is necessary for agriculture, which is simply the way we went about doing things. Perhaps these sapient birds decide instead to herd insects, like leafcutter ants, protecting the ants in exchange for access to their farms. Perhaps they herd larger animals and use taps to extract blood, making their staple a form of black pudding. Or perhaps they sue some other, more arcane method to generate food. As long as it's sustainable and scalable, it fits the bill and can be used as the foundation for a civilization of some sort. If their protolanguage evolved into a proper one, they would meet requirement number two, and if multiple protocivs formed they would by nature pressure one another to innovate, as a means of gaining dominance through technology. Boom, you have a civilization. Bricks and mortar, forges, metallurgy, those are all symptoms of civilization already being present.

>>62020541
Are you brain damaged? Anon has contributed a lot more than "NUH UH BURDS CANT DO THAT BECUZ BIRD DONT HAVE PLOWS", which is retarded
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>>62020603
>I-it's you t-thats mad, I'M NOT MAD
Lol
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>>62008235
He will

But he will not care
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>>62020378
And here you are again, insisting that they would need to develop all the exact same things in the exact same form that humans did, as though no other possibilities or options exist outside that which humanity currently knows of. For some reason, the concept of a bird achieving any sort of technology is more outrageous than quadrupedal synapsids becoming the hairless bipedal masters of earth.
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>>62020619
>For civilization to exist, only three things are needed
Wrong. You need government and specialized labor. To achieve specialized labor, you have to develop a system where a small portion of the population is able to provide food for the rest i.e. Agriculture that is developed beyond subsistence level. Without that level of agriculture, everyone will have to spend their time securing a food source for themselves and their immediate family. This is the absolute core of a civilization and its economy. Birds cannot achieve this with their form. They cannot farm, much less develop things like metals and many other pieces of vital technologies.
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>>62000805
Because the first stick was too short.
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>>62001275
CAW CAW CAW CAW CAW
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>>62020742
What do you mean birds cannot farm? Birds are an integral part of berry bearing plant reproduction now.
If they were to gain further intellect it would literally be a problem of shitting in a certain place to create an orchard and then caring for pest issues (which they already have many mutual relationships with plants and animals doing for food on it's own) and harvesting (Birds are excellent at harvesting seeds and berries just in case you didn't know.).
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>>62020742
Except both of those two things quickly come about if you have the three prerequisites above. Specialization also isn't needed at all, as a civilization could plausibly exist without it. It wouldn't be advanced or efficient, but it would be a civilization.

Agriculture is not the only way of allowing a small part of the population (or, as for most of human history, a vast majority of the population) to provide for others. Pastoralism is a valid alternative that worked for humans in multiple eras, including for the Mongols, who damn near conquered fucking Asia. We're agreed that there needs to be food production over sustainence level, but I don't know why you think that means they have to grow wheat in neat little rows. Again, these are birds we're talking about, they don't need a lot to eat; herding goats and farming them for blood would be a perfectly suitable alternative, particularly when supplemented by gathered fruits and grains from the wild. "Government" is something crows and such already do, in a sense, even though it's mostly anarchic in nature. There's really no reason to assume it wouldn't immediately evolve into something more delineated the minute crows started being able to pass their thoughts on the subject around, even before one figured out a sustainable food source.
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>>62020904
>What do you mean birds cannot farm?
Show me a bird doing commercial farming. You cannot do commercial farming by shitting in a field. Are you literally retarded?

>>62020910
>Specialization also isn't needed at all, as a civilization could plausibly exist without it.
No, it cannot. It really can't. Specialization is the absolute core of civilization beyond Mesolithic
scope. You cannot develop large scale trade and technology without it. By the way, the Mongols relied completely on trade with sedentary civilizations developed from commercial agriculture. They wouldn't even have access to metals without their interactions with developed civilizations.
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>>62021141
>You cannot do commercial farming by shitting in a field. Are you literally retarded?
Are you or did just not pay attention in the third grade?
>Show me a bird doing commercial farming
You want me to show you a hypothetical super intelligent bird doing something? How about the reverse, show me a bonobo commercially farming and if you can't then neither can humans. See how retarded that is?
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>>62021276
>Are you or did
Exactly. Go back to school.
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>>62021141
>No, it cannot. It really can't. Specialization is the absolute core of civilization beyond Mesolithic
>scope.
As I said, it wouldn't be advanced or efficient, but it would be a civilization. And while the Mongols may have needed to trade to compete with the metal-wielding civilizations around them, you'll notice a number of New World civs also used pastoralism as their main source of food. One that comes immediately to mind is the Navajo, and IIRC the Souix, while not directly domesticating the buffalo, had most of their traditions centered around maintaining the environment such that the buffalo in particular could thrive. Native Americans even burned entire forests to ash to promote more grassland for their undomesticated pseudo-livestock.

Specialization is needed for *advanced* civilization, but not for raw civilization itself. Civilization is really just purposefully and with forethought changing the environment to suit your needs.
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>>62021293
You didn't know that birds were a vector for seed dispersal anon.
Don't try to hide it.
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>>62021303
>Civilization is really just purposefully and with forethought changing the environment to suit your needs.
No, it isn't. Civilization, at its most basic, requires large groups living together under rule of law or social norms. But more commonly it means societies "with a high level of cultural and technological development".
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>>62021346
You can disperse seeds all day and all night, but that isn't going to develop commercial agriculture. At best, it's subsistence level. The real fact is that randomly dropping seeds isn't even agriculture, you fucking retard.
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>>62021393
How the fuck do you think agriculture started? Some asshole noticed that that shit he took where the berry seeds were visible was now becoming a berry bush, and he thought "hey maybe if I punch these seeds into the ground maybe I can make lots of berry bushes and then I will have food forever" and it worked.

>>62021376
>Civilization, at its most basic, requires large groups living together under rule of law or social norms.
Guess all those tribes in Africa don't count then because they're tiny. Shucks, sucks to be them I guess.
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>>62021393
>You can disperse seeds all day and all night, but that isn't going to develop commercial agriculture
What do you think neolithic farming was? What more do you need for "commercial" farming than growing an excess of crop?
>it would literally be a problem of shitting in a certain place to create an orchard
>The real fact is that randomly dropping seeds isn't even agriculture
I see you didn't even read the post you're replying to.
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>>62013683
knap flint (hit rocks with rocks, thing birds already do trying to crack nuts), carve wood (thing birds already do), tie flint to stick (weave, thing birds already do)
bada bing, a spear/axe/knife/hoe/spade.
first minecraft babysteps complete.

add in fire use (thing birds already do) and art (easy accomplish) and hunter-gatherer primitive civilization literally already available.

planting seeds and selective breeding for better nutrition and heartiness, already within grasp.

that just leaves domestication of useful fauna, which some human civilizations never reached (north america natives)

that means birds can at least reach Iroquois League tier of civilization provided with human intelligence.
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>>62021445
>How the fuck do you think agriculture started?
There's a long time between the start of agriculture and the development of commercial agriculture. Do some research.

>Guess all those tribes in Africa don't count then because they're tiny
Correct. Those aren't civilizations, they are primitive (or proto) cultures.

>>62021449
>What do you think neolithic farming was?
It was a lot more sophisticated than what you're implying. Please don't insult our ancestors with your ignorance.
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>>62021541
>It was a lot more sophisticated than what you're implying
How? Neolithic era farming caused the downfall of civilizations with soil erosion. There was very little sophistication in it beyond growing plants for food.
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>>62021491
>first minecraft babysteps complete.
Real life isn't a video game.

The problem here is that you're talking about cultural developments that you simply don't understand. Modern day humans tend to have a completely unrealistic idea of what pre-history and ancient cultures were like and what amount of innovation was required to do what they were doing. It's a lot more involved than the shit you're spewing. You should really, really fuck off until you've studied those time periods because you just have no fucking idea what you're talking about. For example, you probably don't even realize how many literal millennia it took to even biologically alter the plants required for basic subsistence level agriculture. Humans and plants evolved side by side because of multi-faceted interactions over the course of many generations.
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>>62021541
I guess this is the wonder of the American Education System. African tribes don't count as civilizations, it only counts if they're factory farming glorious american corn to sell to nobody.

And neolithic farming didn't involve plows either, you absolute buffoon. It really was just punching seeds into the dirt and making sure birds and shit didn't eat them. That's all it needs to be. Everything else is just innovation.
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>>62021635
Stop posting.
>Evidence of its use in prehistory is sometimes found at archaeological sites where the long, shallow scratches (ard marks) it makes can be seen cutting into the subsoil. The ard first appears in the mid-Neolithic and is closely related to the domestication of cattle. It probably spread with animal traction in general across the cereal-growing cultures of the Neolithic Old World. Its exact point of origin is unknown, but it spread quickly throughout West Asia, South Asia and Europe in the late Neolithic and early Chalcolithic.
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>>62021623
>Humans and plants evolved side by side because of multi-faceted interactions over the course of many generations.
So did birds and plants with the seed dispersion that was discussed earlier in the thread. Why would hypothetical birds that are equally intelligent to humans be incapable of doing these things over a similar period of time?
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>>62021635
Ignore the uncreative bastard.
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>>62021541
You stop posting, stupid faggot. Go back to /pol/.
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>>62021698
Because they don't have hands. It's conceivable that intelligent birds could reach pre-meso level civilization, but anything beyond that is beyond their physical capabilities because they simply cannot make sophisticated tools or develop metallurgy. Humans are also limited by physiology. For example, we can't swim like a dolphin, no matter how smart we may be (unless we someday develop an exosuit for that task, but that's another topic altogether).
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>>62021661
>The ard first appears in the mid-Neolithic and is closely related to the domestication of cattle.
So by your own sources admission there was neolithic farming before the widespread use of the ard. Not to mention the fact that you've gone back to "They don't do it like humans so they can't do it at all!!!" autism.
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>>62021775
>For example, we can't swim like a dolphin
Or fly like a bird...oh wait a minute
Not to mention their claws have the ability to maneuver objects and this can easily be converted to tools.
Look at any of the webms in this thread and they already use items as tools to some extent.
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>>62021794
>So by your own sources admission there was neolithic farming before the widespread use of the ard.
Sure. Subsistence level farming also existed before Neolithic times.
>Not to mention
I'm sorry you're angry, but birds are limited to certain capabilities thanks to their specialized forms. No matter how mad you get, they'll never able to do certain tasks. Blame the natural world, not me.
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>>62021854
That's nice, but their feet and beaks cannot do certain tasks, many of which are required for even the simplest of technologies.
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>>61985095
Corvids already have funerals, complex language systems that approach our own, intense problem solving and tool use ability, along with organized societies and social hierarchies, and final corvids have been shown to be able to learn the concept of money. Most importantly they have been shown to have the ability to communicate all of these things with mebers of their own species and there are instances of people training one corvid to do something and then that corvid went back and trained all the other how to do it. They even have the power to recognize people over generations and comunicate who is friend and who is foe. Corvids already exist in the perfect society.
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>>62021870
>The ard first appears in the mid-Neolithic and is closely related to the domestication of cattle.
>the mid-Neolithic
>pre MIDDLE-neolithic
>before Neolithic times
I'm a let you figure this one out one your own

btw don't call other people mad when you're shaking so much that you can't even copy paste correctly. It makes you look foolish.
>>
>>61985095
>>62021904
>>62021491
I am begging you guys not to write a fictional book series on this. I thought I was the only one thinking of these kind of things creatively. Dammit.
>>
>>62021951
You can't even read properly. Are you okay?
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>>62021902
> but their feet and beaks cannot do certain tasks, many of which are required for even the simplest of technologies
Like what? What task do they need to be capable of that isn't shown in the webms in this very thread?
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>>62021979
That's a long, long list, but I'll just go with the most obvious example: metallurgy.
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>>62021974
>I can't come up with an argument, I'll just say he's mad
The beginning is before the middle by the way, just so you know.
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>>62020088
>They can't even weave a string,
This is factually incorrect
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>>62022032
Post bird strings.
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>>62008041
Why are old world vultures so much prettier than new world vultures?
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>>62022009
What part of metallurgy? They can maneuver tools and stick like tools just like humans. They may have trouble dealing with heat increases due to their lacking in cooling systems. Where can they not use tools for such things?
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>>62022063
>What part of metallurgy?
They can't even mine ore.
>They can maneuver tools and stick like tools just like humans.
No, they can't.
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>>62012627
>I don't know about birds but when people tell me I'm wrong I'd better double down
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>>62022084
>They can't even mine ore.
By that logic neither can humans, go ahead and go out and dig up some iron with your hands to prove me wrong
>No, they can't.
>>62000570
>>
>>62022084
>>They can maneuver tools and stick like tools just like humans.
>No, they can't.
Dozens of webms and shared videos and images in this thread alone have already disproved you on this you ignorant fuck.
>>
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>>62022051
They came from different ancestors but are similar through convergent evolution. New world vultures are said to come from some weird line of storks, while old world vultures are in the same family as hawks, falcons, and eagles.
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>>62000570
They are even more intelligent than this even, but I don't want to talk about it because I don't want people to be inspired for the same novel I plan.
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>>62022043
Okay, I got a few images
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>>62022191
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>>62022154
Humans can create a hammer. Birds cannot. Even if they could (lol), they don't have the musculature to deliver the power or dexterity needed to break up near surface ore.

>>62022167
>a webm of a bird struggling to use a stick to pull out a piece of food totally proves that they have the same capabilities as humans!!1
You're legally retarded.
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>>62022210
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>>62022191
>>62022210
>>62022240
That's not even on the level of the most basic human basket weave. Also, those aren't strings.
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>>62022240
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>>62020619
>birds have the first two already
So basically they're only the way they are because life is nice and they can't be bothered.
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>>62022236
>Humans can create a hammer. Birds cannot
Because birds are not intelligent enough.
they don't have the musculature to deliver the power or dexterity needed to break up near surface ore.
When has lack of physical strength ever stopped humans?
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>>62022261
>That's not even on the level of the most basic human basket weave
You're right, their more advanced since they also have to withstand constant weight, weathering, torsion, and collisions all while being suspended at great heights attached to thin precarious branch tips. Meaning they are also more advanced than strong as well

Please kill yourself. You are obviously not a biologist of any stretch and you've done nothing this whole than aside from shitposting and talking out of your ass all for the sake of being a contrarian HFYfag
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>>62022167
Shut this thread down. I don't want people to be inspired, so I'm holding back on sharing actual studies that can blow people out of the water.

But yes, crows do have the intellectual prowess to inherit this Earth. I wish I never spoke of this before, maybe it was due to my influence that such knowledge is becoming more popularized. Please do not write any fiction inspired by this or else I will be pissed.
>>62022236
Crows literally have blue prints on leaves they use for technological evolution. I do not want to discuss this further by giving PubMed article and blowing you out the water because others may be inspired to write a fiction series like me.
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>>62022236
>t. Only looked at one webm and "conviently" ignored all the other sources that outright disproves your bullshit
Consider castrating yourself
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>>62022318
Even if birds were intelligent enough, they don't have the physiology or basic musculature to create the technology needed to overcome those limits. I know you like birds, so do I. But there's a lot more than just intellect stopping them from developing various technologies.
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>>62022337
I've already begun on my first draft, get rekt fag.
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>>62022379
There's nothing stopping them. Crows are already smarter than prehistoric humans and other Greater Apes. They are the only other animals that can incrementally improve their tools, save them for future reuse, and even improve blueprints on leaves. People who do not believe they will inherit this Earth lack creativity.
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>>62022326
>You're right, their more advanced
No they aren't.

>>62022337
>so I'm holding back on sharing actual studies that can blow people out of the water.
lmao

>>62022365
Birds don't have hands and their feet cannot operate on the same level. Blame nature, not me.
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>>62022379
You've been proven wrong and you're just repeating yourself now.
You have nothing to contribute. You have no thoughts. You have no insight. You're just shitposting.
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>>62022401
Stfu, you are sadistic faggot. You are forcing me to work faster now. I guarantee you my vision will be more profound and polished than yours. You dare challenge me to a race? I am the number 1 worshiper of crows and other corvids, and I will complete my manuscript before you.
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>>62022435
>Birds don't have hands and their feet cannot operate on the same level.
Again, this has been disproven dozens of time already. Kill yourself you idiot backwoods Mississippi inbred
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>>62022413
>Crows are already smarter than prehistoric humans and other Greater Apes.
They might be on the level of greater apes (debatable), but they are definitely not more intelligent than prehistoric humans.
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>>62022084
You do realize you can absolutely have a civilization without metalurgy, right? Obviously birds would design all their tools around the use of wood, leafs and stuff like that. Yes, it limits what they can accomplish, but this isn't about creating SCIENCE, it's about making a civilization, which is perfectly possible without the use of metal or even stone. Humans needed very strong materials because they are very big and thus their construction too have to be very big, which requires really sturdy stuff to make it work, but birds only need trees, branches and patience to build the equivalent to a fucking city.
>but commerce!
Again, 500gr creatures. They don't need that much food. Hunger is the one thing birds very rarely die from, even in nature, and thus their civilization would not focus on obtaining food sources but probably in creating defensive systems, which is perfectly obtainable just with intelligence, memory and theory of mind, things that birds alreay have.
>>
>>62022448
>>62022472
No, it hasn't. No, you didn't. And no, birds cannot. For example, birds are physically incapable of basic pottery.
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>>62022379
They have the physiology to shape wood and could easily strip and braid plant matter. That's all you need to start on "technology", because that's all you need for a rope and pulley system that completely negates physical weakness. If you can do those two things, you have the tools to make the tools to do anything.
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>>62022455
Oh yeah? Well I fucking hate crows and the crow gods. I think the masses will enjoy an opposing satirical view on the fact that while making up .00000000001% of all birds they control nearly all the human-based farm mannequin making.
It's gonna be BASED.
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>>62022435
I have studied the genome, neuronal architecture, behavior, and more of crows in-depth. They are far more elegant and refined than Homo sapiens, and once we invariably go extinct, they shall inherit this Earth. We are a flawed species because our brains are not fine-tuned enough -- we lack the lean, efficient connections that crows have in their palliums.

Here is the study that ends this once and for all:

"diversification and cumulative evolution in tool manufacture by new caledonian crows"

Many animals use tools but only humans are generally considered to have the cognitive sophistication required for cumulative technological evolution. Three important characteristics of cumulative technological evolution are: (i) the diversification of tool design; (ii) cumulative change; and (iii) high-fidelity social transmission. We present evidence that crows have diversified and cumulatively changed the design of their pandanus tools. In 2000 we carried out an intensive survey in New Caledonia to establish the geographical variation in the manufacture of these tools. We documented the shapes of 5550 tools from 21 sites throughout the range of pandanus tool manufacture. We found three distinct pandanus tool designs: wide tools, narrow tools and stepped tools. The lack of ecological correlates of the three tool designs and their different, continuous and overlapping geographical distributions make it unlikely that they evolved independently. The similarities in the manufacture method of each design further suggest that pandanus tools have gone through a process of cumulative change from a common historical origin. We propose a plausible scenario for this rudimentary cumulative evolution.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12737666
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>>62022477
>You do realize you can absolutely have a civilization without metalurgy, right?
Where did I say otherwise?
>Obviously birds would design all their tools around the use of wood, leafs and stuff like that. Yes, it limits what they can accomplish, but this isn't about creating SCIENCE, it's about making a civilization
If you read the thread, you wouldn't even post this stupid shit. At its base, civilization is synonymous with society/culture which just means any sufficiently large social group. But in practice, civilization generally refers to
>any complex society characterized by urban development, social stratification imposed by a cultural elite, symbolic systems of communication (for example, writing systems), and a perceived separation from and domination over the natural environment.
Anyway, being limited to materials such as wood means that birds would never progress past a certain, very basic, point.
>They don't need that much food.
Sure, but they can never develop past subsistence level because of their physiology.
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>>62022496
This red oven bird's nest is as advanced as most neolithic pottery, next.
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>>62022573
Crows would become more sophisticated than human beings. They would reach Transhumanist stage relatively easily. We are a flawed species that should go extinct, for they are superior in all regards. Their neuronal connections in the pallium are more fine-tuned and robust; their genome is more compressed and robust; their form is more elegant, with efficient lungs.

Mankind is a flawed species, merely a stepping stone to their divinity.
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>>62022547
>They are far more elegant and refined than Homo sapiens
Yeah, sure. That's why they still live like basic animals even though they've been around a lot longer than us.
>We propose a plausible scenario for this rudimentary cumulative evolution.
They've developed different types of sticks, but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how sophisticated their brains, they simply do not have the physiology to create more sophisticated tools/technologies. When birds develop hands, then you might be onto something.
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>>62022573
Being limited to wood and simple rope means they can lift and move rocks. They could literally build a small crane and stack rocks to make walls. Construction crows would have the advantage of being able to move in 3d without any scaffolding or harnesses.
They wouldn't build large, but they absolutely could build complex.
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>>62022673
They don't need hands. They can use a combination of beak and clasping with talon. They can also cooperate in more efficient manners, something humans could never do effectively.
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>>62022496
>Laughing Great Hornbill.gif
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>>62022628
No, it isn't. Neolithic pottery was used to smelt ore. That thing just smells bad.

>>62022648
Neurology is far from the only factor. Their physical forms simply what they can accomplish. For example, Dolphins are smart but they can't create shit because they just have flippers.
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>>62022723
Damn look at those goalpost move!
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>>62022703
>They don't need hands. They can use a combination of beak and clasping with talon.
Yes, they do needs hands. No, breaks and talons cannot replace the need for hands.

>>62022723
>Their physical forms simply what they can accomplish.
*simply limit
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>>62022723
>No, it isn't. Neolithic pottery was used to smelt ore. That thing just smells bad.
If that was a bowl instead of a hut, it absolutely could be used to smelt ore.
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>>62022766
First, it's not pottery. Secondly, no it couldn't. It's not even on the level of a mud hut.
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>>62021775
Pretty sure they could develop better tools if they had the brains for it, hitting a rock until it has the right shape is not something they need arms for, same with carving wood, if they were smarter they would almost certainly figure out what works best with their own body limitations
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>>62022723
>He can form clay into a perfect dome, but he could never form clay into a flat indent surface with a pattern
You're retarded, but I can already tell that because you're unironically arguing with a shitposter
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>>62022785
Why isn't it pottery? It's clay formed into a shape. It's literally better than a mud hut because it's not mud.
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>still responding to the autistic HFY shitposter
Anons, this faggot is not only wrong, but is willfully ignorant and refuses to look at actual arguments. There is nothing to be gained from responding from him, and he'll never change his uneducated ways or bother to learn thing one about ornithology. Stop responding to him, or at the very lest don't give him real responses, and starve him of the (you)s he craves. Perhaps he'll through a bigger fit then return to his home on pleddit or /pol/
>>
>>62022785
Neither is the neolithic "pottery" you were harping on about.
The kind they used for ore smelting was wet before being put over a fire. That is also wet, and literally a bowl shape. If you filled it full of ore and put it over a fire, it would do the exact same thing as the neolithic pottery you think it isn't like.
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>>62022785
>Molded clay is not pottery!
I think we're reaching the apex stupid here.
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>>62022009
Pretty sure anything you need metallurgy for wouldn't count as "the simplest of tools"
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>>62022573
>Where did I say otherwise?
When you started autistically claiming that since they can't have metallurgy (or pottery, or whatever very specific, human-designed, tool you mentioned, even thought literally all of them are irrelevant as they're designed for humans and thus would have no use for a bird society), they can't have civilization,
>any complex society characterized by urban development, social stratification imposed by a cultural elite, symbolic systems of communication (for example, writing systems), and a perceived separation from and domination over the natural environment.
>Anyway, being limited to materials such as wood means that birds would never progress past a certain, very basic, point
>hey can never develop past subsistence level
You keep making the same mistake, I'm begginig to think you're doing it on purpose just to make people mad.
Let's try slower this time:
Birds are very small animals
Small animals weight little
If you weight little, you don't need big sturdy structures
Therefore wood and leafs are more than enough for bird to manage a civilization
Are we clerar now? The social parts (communication via symbols, social stratification) only require higher intelligence, which is already a given in this thread since that's what it's about. Hell, the only thing crows would need to be past subsistence level is to chase off other birds in their whereabouts, literally all they would need to manage is control over a specific space and they'd never, ever, have to worry about food again, since they eat so little, so stop aruging how they can't have agriculture: they don't need agriculture to have enough food to go beyond subsistence level.
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>>62022787
>Pretty sure they could develop better tools if they had the brains for it
No, they couldn't. They don't have hands.

>>62022796
>>62022810
It's not even on the same level. They can't even stoke the fire needed to create pottery on a mesolithic level. It's just fucking dirt. Stop using ignorance as an argument.
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>>62022723
>>62022752
01/02
It doesn't matter what appendages it's using to manipulate objects so long as it has the dexterity to make fire. Mastery of fire is vital for an intelligent species advancement. Think about it. It means cooking food, making nutrients and calories more easily absorbed to devote to higher brain power, it means mastering the ecosystem, keeping would-be predators at bay, it means eventual metallurgy, cause what else are they gonna build machines out of?

Nothing is stopping intelligent non-apes from using tools. Corvids have bent pieces of wire into hook poles extract food from physically impossible spaces, as my initial post discussed. They have taken objects to heights to drop them until they open. They have used human automobiles to break open their food then fetched it during red lights.

Lots of our relatives, like little marmosets and other new world monkeys are worse at tools / creativity / problem-solving than birds, dolphins, octopuses, etc., even though the little monkeys have opposable thumbs. It wasn't automatic that apes must stumble on advanced tech. Human written language didn't arrive on the printing press, and cuneiform scratches pressed into slabs of clay is crow-possible. Crows could pass on lessons to each new generation that improves writing and reading crow-neiform language.
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>>62022901
02/02
Crows could learn to drop more than eggs from heights, like pointy sticks onto animals who get infected then turn into a pile of free meat. They could've learned to use fire as a tool, with a flock dropping lit tinder all around a dry area to trap and cook those caught within the area. Stone tools could be made by dropping flint from heights onto targets. Crow bodies don't prevent metalworking either. Crows could dig molds into sand, drop tinder into the area, drop metals into the mold and then light it from a communal campfire they take turns dropping grass and twigs into. Simple metal tools can be used to swoop down and break/hammer/bend more complicated tools. Their tech would be smaller and each new generation would develop stronger and stronger legs/claws and neck muscles so that they could make and use better metal technologies. They might emphasize a different order of technologies than we do. Like prioritizing an external elevator using counterweights, which allows a crow to effortlessly get high in the sky to quickly glide massive distances with little calorie cost. If we vanished, someone else would make tools long before the planet died.

The most intelligent animals on our planet

Apes : have opposables

Dolphins and Orcas (big dolphins): no opposables

Octopus and squid: no opposable bone digits at all

Parrots and Corvids: only have digits on the feet, which they don't even use for 2/3rds of their problem solving. They use their mouth, with their legs simply immobilizing the object (clamping it to a table would replace the need for their opposables entirely)

Elephants: have no opposable digits on any hands or any legs, they manipulate using their nose+upperlip.

The entire concept of manipulation with two arms is entirely arbitrary. 1 limb, 2 limbs, 3 limbs, 12 limbs, with any amount of different fingers of any different types would be equally reasonable.
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>>62022261
Maybe they could develop better weaving techniques if they had human intelligence, wich is pretty much the point of the thread
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>>62022859
>When you started autistically claiming that since they can't have metallurgy they can't have civilization
Where did I say that?
>Therefore wood and leafs are more than enough for bird to manage a civilization
You're illiterate (and overall just plain fucking dumb). I said
>many of which are required for even the simplest of technologies
>technologies
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>>62022337
Please leave fag
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>>62022878
>They can't even stoke the fire needed to create pottery on a mesolithic level.
Considering many birds are able to active use and manipulate fire in their environs and will actively feed and stoke wildfire...you're full of shit

>They don't have hands.
You're a persistent kind of stupid aren't you
>>
>>62022878
>They can't even stoke the fire needed to create pottery
But they can create fires in their current form, they can also mold clay in their current form.
Your argument (>>62022379) was that they were physically incapable, not that they aren't advanced enough.
Nice try to dodge it though.
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>>62022938
>let me just ignore your whole argument and focus on typos
Sorry, my bad, you ARE doing this on purpose to make people angry. Here's your last (you) from me, I hope it tastes good.
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>>62022937
Just give it a couple thousand years and they will have a Transhumanist Utopia in no time.
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>>62022901
>It doesn't matter what appendages it's using to manipulate objects so long as it has the dexterity to make fire
They don't have the dexterity to make fire. Also, even if they could, they still don't have the appendages needed to craft many vital tools needed for more advanced technologies.

>>62022937
It comes down to one simple fact: they are limited by their lack of hands, just like every other intelligent species out there that isn't human. The other animals with hands are limited by their intelligence, though it's conceivable that our primate cousins might eventually develop the intelligence needed.
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>>62021775
>For example, we can't swim like a dolphin,
>Humans can't swim
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>>62022980
Confusing "civilization" for "technology" is not a typo, dumbass.
>>
Read posts here:
>>62022901
>>62022923
>>62022547

The debate is over. Now please, don't steal these ideas because I am writing a book series.
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>>62023008
>like a dolphin
Stop shitposting or stop being a retard. Whichever one your affliction is.
>>
We should all take this moment to worship crows, to realize their glory and splendor and how we Homo sapiens can never attain their greatness.
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>>62023001
>Also, even if they could, they still don't have the appendages needed to craft many vital tools needed for more advanced technologies
They can shape wood and make rope. That's all you need.
Stone tools? Lift a rock, drop a rock, chip a rock, shape a rock. Metal? Lift some ore, drop some ore (into a clay or stone bowl), lift a bowl, drop a bowl.

They don't need to do anything at the scale humans are at. A stone knife the size of your finger is equivalent to a small sword for their body size. They don't need to make bricks with more mass than their body has, because they're small enough to handle very small bricks for very small (relative to us) structures.
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>>62022966
>But they can create fires in their current form
No, they can't. They can possibly stoke an ongoing natural fire, but that's not the same as creating fire and it definitely wouldn't allow them to make mesolithic level pottery. They are physically incapable of doing so.

>>62022962
Bird talons cannot do the same things as human hands, not even close.
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>>62023024
Anon, you don't own biology. Stop being a faggot, afterall I'm pretty sure a dozens of literature-minded ornithologists have also had the same ideas.
Nihil novi sub sol. You idea isn't original, get over it. All that matters is the execution, and if you're only relying on uniqueness to push your book series, then chances are its going to be shit because of it
>>
>>62023068
>They can shape wood and make rope. That's all you need.
No it isn't. They can't do agriculture. They can't create anything more complicated than a sharp stone or a bunch of vines woven together. They are limited by their physical forms.
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>>62023085
>but that's not the same as creating fire and it definitely wouldn't allow them to make mesolithic level pottery. They are physically incapable of doing so.
And you are physically incapable of delicately shaping wood with your face. They literally start with a knife equivalent tool and have it with them for their entire lives. They can start with woodworking and fabric weaving and advance from there.
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>>62023112
Why do they need agriculture? They're small animals with small needs.
Planting one bush could feed a family of 10. A sharp stone or a bunch of woven vines is more than enough to make ropes and pulleys, and ropes and pulleys are how humans managed to use muscle power to move things many times our mass. They have the tools to make the tools.
>>
>>62023135
>and advance from there
Advance to what?
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>>62023157
>Why do they need agriculture? They're small animals with small needs.
To go beyond subsistence level living.
>Planting one bush could feed a family of 10.
They cannot even cultivate a bush. Besides, that's still subsistence level.
>A sharp stone or a bunch of woven vines is more than enough to make ropes and pulleys
First off, ropes are a lot stronger than a bunch of woven vines. Secondly, pulleys made out of such rudimentary materials would never have the strength to do anything significant. What era you proposing they could do with such things? They'd be nothing more than what they are now, no matter how intelligent they got.
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>>62022723
All they really need to smelt ore is to make a clay tube and put branches in it.
if they can make a dome they can do a tube aswell
All they need is human intelligence to figure out heating up ore melts it into metal
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>>62023085
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/01/wildfires-birds-animals-australia/
How does it feel to be so constantly wrong. Developing a way for a bird to start a flame would be as easy as a string and a stick, which has been shown multiple times in this thread and with the increased intelligence would very easy.
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>>62023171
To pottery and eventually metal working. Humans didn't start somewhere in the middle of the tech tree either.
Wait till low tide, scoop some clay with wooden bowls. Wait till a lightning strike, stoke the fire, feed the embers, fire some clay. Boom, pottery. Friction ignition is not beyond them either. It's a lot of work, but that doesn't make it impossible.
So then they've got simple tools, relatively advanced lifting equipment, pottery, fire, and don't have nearly as much need for agriculture.
There's a point where things get exponentially better, and for humans that was when we started domesticating larger animals to feed ourselves. For them, it's probably when they get the ability to lift things heavier than themselves.
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>>62023232
They can't even make a fire without hands, must less build rudimentary smelting technologies.
>>
62023112
>They can't do agriculture.
>>62022859
>stop arguing how they can't have agriculture: they don't need agriculture to have enough food to go beyond subsistence level

Just because you ignored something doesn't make it any less real.
>>
>>62023229
>They cannot even cultivate a bush. Besides, that's still subsistence level.
>they can't dig a hole and plant a berry
And why do they "need" to go beyond subsistence level? Food storage has nothing to do with how you farm it. They can literally move in 3d, there is no plant too large for them to cultivate.
>First off, ropes are a lot stronger than a bunch of woven vines.
Ropes are just woven in specific patterns. Anything intelligent can figure out ropes. Braiding vines is not the same as simply weaving them.
Pulleys made out of such rudimentary materials can move small stones. Small animals have small needs, they don't need to build the equivalent of a pyramid or the hagia sophia. They just need to build storage huts.
>>
>>62023257
>They can't even make a fire without hands
If you have the manual dexterity to consistently and easily form half-hitches, you can make a simple fire-bow
>>
>>62023239
That article is all about how they spread fires. Again, that's not the same as creating fire. Monkey can do the same thing, but they still can't create fire, which is needed for countless technologies.

>>62023241
>To pottery and eventually metal working
They can't achieve that with vines and sticks.
>Wait till low tide, scoop some clay with wooden bowls.
They can't even make wooden bowls, much less scoop clay into it.
>Wait till a lightning strike
lmfao Seriously? You think you can build technology by waiting for lighting strikes? Holee fuck. Get real, you imbecile.
>fire some clay. Boom, pottery
They can't even shape the clay over a fire, much less create a ceramics wheel which is an absolute necessity to create fine enough pottery.
>relatively advanced lifting equipment
They do not.
>don't have nearly as much need for agriculture.
They absolutely need agriculture. You cannot have specialized labor without beyond subsistence agriculture. You're out of your mind. Want proof? Birds aren't doing these things despite their intelligence.
>>
Crows are superior to us in all regards:

It's not just in regards to the intellect that I argue this.

-- their genomes are more robust and compressed, less repetitious sequences
-- they can use & reuse, improve upon, and leave behind blueprints to make complex tools
-- their visual perception is more refined, they see more broad spectrum of UV light than us, and they have a kind of oil on their eyes that lead to distinguish various shades of colors more effectively. It is claimed crows see each other as purple, a color Lovecraft considered of the transcendent. They see this world as luminescent, sparkly, and vibrant.
-- like other passerines, they have a great precision in their voice relative to humans, waveforms can overlap with each other unlike humans
-- they do have artistic preferences, given they prefer shiny objects
-- they are socially monogamous, something we imitate
-- they also have less complex nutritional requirements and their actions, in all likelihood, probably have less energy expenditure than Primates, leading to better maintenance of homeostasis.
-- they have a sense of honor that leads to cohesion of group more efficiently, this honor is ingrained in them

Consider how sophisticated such corvids are, currently. Now compare this to our hunter-gatherer ancestors who routinely engaged in infanticide, cannibalism, rape, animal abuse, and etc. Crows are much more sophisticated than our hunter-gatherer ancestors in the sense they are much more harmonious and tightly-knit.
>>
>>62023229
>What era you proposing they could do with such things?
Surely you aren't arguing that they need to be able to make all advances all at once in a short period of time. Humans didn't do that, so holding theoretically smarter crows to the same standard is just silly.
>>
>>62023257
With their physiology hey can definitely hit a rock against a larger rock to make a spark, all they need is to put some dry grass nearby and it could make fire.
With human intelligence they'll figure out how to manipulate it
>>
>>62023297
>they can't dig a hole and plant a berry
You've never even grown a plant in your life. All your arguments are completely divorced from reality. This isn't minecraft.
>Anything intelligent can figure out ropes.
Go make a rope right now.

>>62023363
>Surely you aren't arguing that they need to be able to make all advances all at once in a short period of time.
No, but I am stating that they physical forms keep them from making anything more advanced than what they do now.
>>
>>62023358
I gave you a way they can make fires and you ignored it. Stop using ignorance as an argument.
>Monkey can do the same thing, but they still can't create fire
But monkeys have hands and bone structures similar to humans. Are you saying that monkeys if given homosapient intelligence they still couldn't?
>>
>>62023358
>They can't even make wooden bowls
They can shape wood with their beaks. They literally can shape wood right now. With intelligence, they could easily make a bowl.
>You think you can build technology by waiting for lighting strikes?
>it's not real work unless you made artisinal fire from scratch

>They can't even shape the clay over a fire
Pssst, humans don't shape clay over the fire either. You shape it before you add the fire.
>create a ceramics wheel which is an absolute necessity to create fine enough pottery.
You know who else didn't have fancy spinning wheels? Humans, for a loooong time. That's literally moving goalposts.
>They do not.
They could though. Wait, do you think we're talking about them as is? Jesus Christ, how do you type with such low reading comprehension?
>They absolutely need agriculture
Why? They have more than enough food without even trying. Literally right now, with their normal bird brains, they do not need to spend every waking hour looking for food. They have ample leisure time without agriculture. If they had the minds for it, they could absolutely put their efforts towards specialized labor.
>>
>>62023430
>With their physiology hey can definitely hit a rock against a larger rock to make a spark
No they can't. Besides, such as basic fire wouldn't even be enough to make stone-age pottery.
>>
>>62023453
>You've never even grown a plant in your life
Have you? Most plants do just fine if you simply plant them in the ecosystem they're already native to.
Or wait, do you think someone's out there carefully watering and taking care of all those trees and bushes out in the woods?
>Go make a rope right now
Sure, I can braid something with my eyes closed.
>>
>>62023358
>They can't even make wooden bowls,
They do have the physical capability to carve into wood however (parrots incarticulare can easily cut into wood) so one with human intellect can easily make a simple wooden dish

>They do not.
Considering how advacne the weaving work ov weaver birds, and the aforementioned wood carving capability, it is easily possible again with human level intellect
>>
>>62023474
There's videos in this thread of them hitting things with other things that they're holding. Real videos of real birds really doing it.
>>
>>62023474
>such as basic fire wouldn't even be enough to make stone-age pottery.
You can make stone-age pottery by leaving clay out to dry in the sun.
>>
>>62023538
B-but that isn't good enough to make greco-roman vases so they're stuck with simple wooden sticks!
>>
>>62023491
>Have you? Most plants do just fine if you simply plant them in the ecosystem they're already native to.
Not if you want to cultivate a food source.

>>62023465
>With intelligence, they could easily make a bowl.
With what? Twigs? Random bark? They can't even produce wooden planks.
>You know who else didn't have fancy spinning wheels? Humans, for a loooong time. That's literally moving goalposts.
Humans have used potter's wheels since over 4500 years ago in the mesolithic era.
>They could though.
No, they couldn't. They don't have hands.
>Why?
For the specialization of labor.
>they do not need to spend every waking hour looking for food. They have ample leisure time without agriculture
So did/do non-agricultural humans, but they also couldn't develop the same things as an agriculturally based society. This is basic shit.

>>62023538
>>62023557
Even mesolithic pottery is more advanced than that. You're arguing via ignorance.
>>
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https://youtu.be/6svAIgEnFvw
https://youtu.be/RbQNbdbwV4E
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>>62023099
Well, I think I was the one to popularize the idea of crows inheriting the Earth on 4chan though. It means I have more competition as a result.
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>>62023675
>Well, I think I was the one to popularize the idea of crows inheriting the Earth on 4chan though.
Nah, that shit has been around forever too. Its even older than the Great French Fry War
>>
>over half of this thread is just one guy constantly saying "no, this isn't possible. if they don't achieve things in this very narrow and specific way that is exactly the way humans did, then they will never figure anything out"
>>
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>birds could totally build the same technology as humans if they get smarter!
>also I'm going to write a great book! don't steal my ideas!!
>>
>>62023613
>They can't even produce wooden planks.
They could easily produce planks sized to them. Your hangup is that you're imagining them using human sized tools when they really wouldn't.
>potter's wheels since over 4500 years ago in the mesolithic era.
>he thinks there wasn't pottery for thousands of years before that
>No, they couldn't. They don't have hands.
They don't need hands. They move in 3d. Do you know how fucking easy it would be for a bird to drag a rope up over a branch to create the simplest pulley system?
>For the specialization of labor.
They can do that right now. In fact, they do that right now. They have dedicated lookouts who don't forage for food directly.
>So did/do non-agricultural humans, but they also couldn't develop the same things as an agriculturally based society.
This is a non-sequitur, actually.

>>62023613
>Even mesolithic pottery is more advanced than that.
Mesolithic pottery is not where pottery started. You're trying to say that they can't go anywhere because they can't start thousands of years ahead of the human tech curve.
>>
>>62023711
>They could easily produce planks sized to them.
How?
>Your hangup is that you're imagining them using human sized tools
No I'm not.
>They don't need hands.
They do.
>Do you know how fucking easy it would be for a bird to drag a rope up over a branch to create the simplest pulley system?
That pulley can't accomplish anything significant.
>They can do that right now.
They can't and they don't.
>This is a non-sequitur, actually.
All your posts are non-sequitur.
>Mesolithic pottery is not where pottery started.
So? The technologies you are claiming they could create still require material production at that level.
>>
>>62023705
>only one person disagrees with me!
Mate, you have been arguing with AT LEAST 3 different people. And considering both how much of the the post count your argument has eaten up and the poster number, I'd argue the actual number is far greater
>>
This is the exact same goalpost moving as every discussion of animal intelligence, just taken to a weird extreme.
"Animals can't be smart unless they work in groups"
"Animals can't be smart unless they communicate"
"Animals can't be smart unless they learn"
"Animals can't be smart unless they teach"
"Animals can't be smart unless they literally use a recognizable audio language with distinct words"
"Animals can't be smart unless they plan ahead and show the ability to think laterally"
It's a sliding goal that will never be reached until the unlikely day something that was provably not raised by humans gets uplifted and starts publicly protesting for sapient rights in english.
>>
How the fuck is this thread even /tg/ related?
>>
>>62023613
they carve into wood by just biting on it, with human intelligence they'll figure out how to bite it into the shapes they need
>>
>>62023786
>only one person disagrees with me!
Where did I state that? You're an idiot. Also, why are you assuming I'm another poster? You're also a hypocrite.
>>
>>62023772
>How?
You never seen a bird tear into a piece of wood before? You have never owned a parrot or cockatoo? There's even a video of a bird shredding wood into strips in>>62023621
seriously, are you this fucking dense? Do you even know what a fucking bird is?
>>
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>>62023772
>That pulley can't accomplish anything significant.
You know, except build empires.
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>>62023804
You can't make a bowl shape from a twig or branch. How are you proposing they could take a thick enough chunk of woody material from a tree?
>>
>>62023832
Those aren't wooden planks.

>>62023839
That pulley is a lot more sophisticated than a rope hung over a branch.
>>
>>62023803
It started off as a simple worldbuilding question, but then some HFYfag couldn't contain his autism and derailed it with his ignorance
>>
>>62023772
>How?
With their beaks that can cut wood and pull chunks and strips off of it.
>No I'm not.
You clearly are, since you refuse to believe that a pulley sized for them could lift something useful to them.
>That pulley can't accomplish anything significant.
That pulley can lift small rocks. A human would need many thousands of small rocks for anything useful. A crow, being small, only needs a couple dozen to build a scale shed or kiln.
>They can't and they don't.
You are willfully ignorant.
>So? The technologies you are claiming they could create still require material production at that level.
The technologies you are claiming as absolutely required could not be done by a human from scratch. You need to build tools to build those tools. There are entire levels below mesolithic that humans had to build up from. They would do the same. They wouldn't wake up one day, completely ditch all of their previous tools, and start trying to spin a clay wheel from nothing.
>>
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>>62023846
>You can't make a pyramid shape from a mountain or quarry. How are you proposing they could take a thick enough chunk of stone material from a hole?
You're actually retard
>>
>>62023846
With a sharpened stone lifted up via rope over a branch. They move in 3d. They can guide a rock in the air.
>>
>>62023870
>Those aren't wooden planks.
So, a large pieces of straight wood that can be carved into more and be altered into different sizes isn't a plank?
Nigger, did you even graduate fucking highschool?
>>
>>62023870
The human intelligence is a lot more sophisticated than a rope hung over a branch
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>>62023876
>With their beaks that can cut wood and pull chunks and strips off of it.
That's not a plank.
>You clearly are
No.
>That pulley can lift small rocks.
Okay. That accomplishes nothing. And no, you can't build a shed just by simply stacking small rocks.
>You are willfully ignorant.
You're divorced from reality.
>The technologies you are claiming as absolutely required could not be done by a human from scratch. You need to build tools to build those tools. There are entire levels below mesolithic that humans had to build up from.
Except mesolithic humans have hands. Birds do not.
>>
>>62023870
>Those aren't wooden planks.
Define a wooden plank. Your idiocy has me curious
>>
>>62023911
From >>62021276 it seems like he hasn't graduated from the third grade.
>>
>>62023902
You can't cut a tree into planks using a stone attached to a rope hang over a branch.

>>62023911
No, that's just strips of wood. Those aren't planks.
>>
>>62023929
>And no, you can't build a shed just by simply stacking small rocks.
I wasn't counting the thatched roof because I assumed you could think that far. But yes, you also need a roof that usually isn't also made of rocks in addition to walls that are made of rocks.
>Except mesolithic humans have hands
And a lot of earlier tools that they used to make their spinning wheels and kilns. Tools that you are simply discounting from the theoretical corvids.
>>
>>62023929
>>62023870
>>62023972
>that's not a plank
>plank: A plank is timber that is flat, elongated, and rectangular with parallel faces that are higher and longer than wide.
By definition, its a plank. You're a retard
>>
>>62023846
>You can't make a bowl shape from a twig or branch
Have you ever seen a bird's nest? Like the classical, commonly known bird's nest, that is literally twigs or grass in the shape of a bowl?
Have you ever even seen a bird? At all?
This thread is convincing me that you actually have no idea what they even are, and it honestly surprises me that you seem familiar enough with the concept to know that they don't have hands.
>>
Holy shit. This motherfucker has the goalposts on a fucking centrifuge.
>>
>>62023972
>You can't cut a tree into planks using a stone attached to a rope hang over a branch.
Have you ever seen an early axe? They're literally sharpened rocks. The birds might have to use mechanical advantage and teamwork, but they could absolutely lift a sharpened rock.
Hell, they could make a disk shaped axe with a couple holes in it, tie a knot in it, and then let momentum do all the work. Or wait, are you going to claim that a pendulum is beyond them?
>>
>>62023986
No, a shed is more sophisticated than stacked pebbles. The stone material needs to interlock via an adhesive or specifically shaped stones.

>>62023992
They can't make thick enough planks because they can't chop down and splice trees.

>>62023996
You ever tried to pour water into a bird's nest? It doesn't make a very good bowl.
>>
>>62024006
Even if birds retained hands from avian dinosaurs, they'd still probably find a way to discredit it as impossible, like their hands don't bend the right ways, or they aren't human hands specifically.
>>
>>62024033
>Have you ever seen an early axe? They're literally sharpened rocks.
They are flakes of rocks which are produced by percussion. Birds cannot achieve something on, say, the level of an acheulean axe because they don't have the manual dexterity/strength required.
>>
>>62024060
T-Rex had hands, but if they have the intelligence their hands would still not have the range of motion needed to produce the technologies you are talking about.
>>
>>62024050
>The stone material needs to interlock via an adhesive or specifically shaped stones.
I can tell you've never been anywhere that humans were doing advanced things more than 100 years ago, because the stone walls used by farmers for literally centuries without any adhesive at all would blow your fucking mind to the point where you wouldn't be here with us today.
Also the subtle hint that they couldn't pick flat rocks is a nice touch.
>>
>>62024076
What if they were to hold it with their beak, they already do this with rocks and nuts.
>>
>>62024076
>Birds cannot achieve something on, say, the level of an acheulean axe because they don't have the manual dexterity/strength required.
This, again, has been disprove COUNTLESS times in this thread alone
Please kill yourself
>>
>>62024076
That's why they'd utilize their ability to move in 3d space to swing it off a branch. You completely discount their ability to fly or the basic physics of a pendulum.
>>
>>62024108
>because the stone walls used by farmers for literally centuries without any adhesive at all
Actually, they used a type of mixed mud for many millennia. And again, I also mentioned that they also used specifically shaped interlocking stones if they weren't applying any sort of adhesive or gap filler.
>>
>>62024050
>those aren't planks!
>They can't make planks thick enough!
Did you mail that goalpost all the way to hong-kong?
>>
>>62024145
>Actually, they used a type of mixed mud for many millennia. And again, I also mentioned that they also used specifically shaped interlocking stones if they weren't applying any sort of adhesive or gap filler.
They literally didn't, up here in New England, none of the old farm walls from the 1600-1800s have adhesive. You can just pick the rocks up off the walls if you wanted to.
And the specific shape you need is flat. Flat rocks are not rare, especially not small ones.
>>
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>>62024114
They could create crudely sharped rocks, but nothing on the level of pic related.

>>62024142
It doesn't matter if you can fly. Also, the whole bit about swinging it off a branch makes zero sense. I suggest you read up about stone age technology first. Also, neither method would be able to produce the leverage needed.
>>
>>62024145
Flat rocks with stuffed grass gap filler is basic shit.
>>
>>62024179
>trying to use facts
>on the autistic fucker
Don't anon, you'll only make him angrier. He's immune to facts and truth!
>>
>>62024159
I mentioned that in my earlier posts. Not my fault you can't read. I already mentioned how you need thick wood to carve a bowl (whose defining property is depth. WOW).
>>
>>62024195
Why would they need anything more sophisticated than something they can strike with, birds do just fine creating shelters as is, what use would they have for an axe?
>>
>>62024220
>Not my fault you can't read. I already mentioned how you need thick wood to carve a bowl
not for a bowl that's sized appropriately for birds
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>>62024197
Yes, grass is totally going to achieve that. lol.
>>
>>62024195
>Also, the whole bit about swinging it off a branch makes zero sense
Because you don't understand the simple physics of a pendulum. I suggest you read up about gravity and what it does to objects that are tied to a pole and dropped from any distance away from said pole.
And it absolutely could produce the leverage, because a rock coming down at falling speed is a rock moving with significant speed and its own weight.
>>
>>62024238
Yes, for a bowl appropriately sized for birds. Especially if you're trying to smelt ore, which was the original comment.
>>
>>62024237
Honestly, I don't get why they would need an axe to begin with.
>>
>>62024240
So we can add grass to the list of things you've never actually seen then.
>>
>>62024256
A bowl appropriately sized for birds is a couple inches deep at most.
If you can't find a nice thick stick out in the woods, you've never been out in the woods. And no, I'm not implying that they would have to forage each and every one, just that wood at that thickness is not rare or special.
>>
>>62024244
A pendulum isn't going to create sharpened stone tools. You're retarded. Again, you should familiarize yourself with the method required to create these tools before you start trying to invent news ways. You don't even understand the basics of the situation. Ignorance is not a valid argument.
>>
>>62024256
why would you use a wooden bowl to smelt ore?
wood burns in fire
>>
>>62024280
>A bowl appropriately sized for birds is a couple inches deep at most.
Exactly. They cannot produce wood that is a couple inches thick without tools.
>If you can't find a nice thick stick out in the woods
Go outside and try to make a bowl from a "nice thick stick".
>>
>>62024283
>Ignorance is not a valid argument.
Guess that's you done then.
>>
>>62024283
>A pendulum isn't going to create sharpened stone tools.
We're talking about using them to cut wood, not making them. You're the one who doesn't get what's going on here.
But making them is even easier. They drop one rock onto another rock's edge, exactly the same method a human would use, just with a simple pulley instead of hands.
>>
>>62024301
Follow the conversation next time, dumbass. There's more to smelting ore than just the burning process.
>>
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>>62024256
>Not my fault you can't read. I already mentioned how you need thick wood to carve a bowl
>Especially if you're trying to smelt ore
>thick wood
>smelt ore
wow, I don't think even you know what your point was.
>>
>>62024302
>Go outside and try to make a bowl from a "nice thick stick".
Cut the end off the stick, gouge out the inside with your beak.
Wooooow, so hard. And before you ask how they cut the end off, that's with the axe that they made by dropping one rock onto another with the rope they made using their beaks.
>>
>>62024315
>They drop one rock onto another rock's edge, exactly the same method a human would use, just with a simple pulley instead of hands.
The rock would not weigh enough, no matter what height it was dropped from. You have to apply direct force in order to make them chip. Go outside and try to make a sharpened stone. I've done it. Have you?
>>
>>62021623
"nuh-uh", even when expressed in a lot of long words, is not a valid refute.
>>
>>62024326
Read the thread, moron.

>>62024346
Go do it. There's nothing stopping you. You'll quickly learn how ridiculous your posts are.
>>
>>62024356
>I've done it.
I don't believe you. Or if you did, you were trying to sharpen granite. Flint chips just from dropping it on other rocks. Fuck, I've seen it chip from dropping on frozen dirt.
>>
>>62024323
no you specifically said for smelting ore you need wooden bowls
>>
>>62024380
I don't need to do it, because I've seen stones chip from simple gravity, and I've made marks in wood by softballing unsharpened rocks at it.
>>
>>62024402
Read the thread.
>>
>>62024380
>Read the thread, moron.
I did, I was also the one that btfo you here >>62022966. We've already been over the fact that birds are physically capable of creating clay bowls for smelting.
I don't even know what your dumbass is talking about with wooden bowls and smelting.
>>
>>62024356
>The rock would not weigh enough, no matter what height it was dropped from
That's a hell of an ignorant statement to make. The terminal velocity of a rock is enough to deeply gouge wood, which means dropping it from a realistic height is enough to make progress towards cutting.
>>
>>62024392
>>62024414
>I don't believe you
>I don't need to do it
Pathetic. Ignorance is not a defense.
>>
>>62024461
>Ignorance is not a defense.
I'm glad we agree. There's no excuse for you not reading the rest of those posts and your ignorance is not a defense.
>>
>>62024435
i did? and you were completely ignoring clay bowls to use for that purpose
>>
>>62024449
>We've already been over the fact that birds are physically capable of creating clay bowls
Post proof.
>I don't even know what your dumbass is talking about with wooden bowls and smelting.
Because you didn't read the thread. They need bowls to gather the materials for and to create clay pottery, which would then require them to harden it with controlled, hot enough flames and then they would need that to try to smelt basic surface ores. You're a fucking imbecile.
>>
>>62024516
You literally posted the proof yourself.
If they can make wooden bowls, they can do every single step along the way to make clay bowls.
They can make wooden bowls by shaping wood with their beaks. Once they have wooden bowls, they line the inside with clay and fire it, burning the wood, but hardening the clay into a bowl shape. And with that, they could smelt ores.
>>
>birds are totally going to create technology
>they're going to make metals and pulleys and build sheds
>and they're going to build societies and governments and do pottery and make wheels and domesticate animals
>they don't even need hands! beaks and claws are enuff
>it's going to happen!!!1
lmao Goodbye retards
>>
>>62024574
oooooh so you think this wasn't hypothetical?
>>
>>62024516
>Post proof
>>62022628 Shows they can shape clay into domes and therefore bowls. Not to mention the very nest in the picture can act as a furnace.
>hey need bowls to gather the materials for and to create clay pottery
Why? They're birds, they can gather clay into anything a pile or the shape of the very picture I've shown you.
>would then require them to harden it with controlled, hot enough flames and then they would need that to try to smelt basic surface ores
See above statement.
Stay mad retard.
>>
>>62024589
Of course that's what he thinks. He's demonstrated that he can't read anyway.
>>
>>62024574
>birds are totally going to create technology
Wow, it wasn't even a merely pretending.
>>
>>62021969
I have no plans to but you're racing my friend Diane Ramic who is the reason I know all this about birds, and she's also an illustrator.

your only hope is to out-write her on quality rather than scientific accuracy, speed, or production value, because she's almost literally obsessed and the ideas have been brewing in her head for years.
>>
>>62022261
of course not they're not human intelligence yet. they do demonstrate the manual capacities required however
>>
>>62022474
>but they are definitely not more intelligent than prehistoric humans.
depends on which one. we went bipedal pack persistence hunter earlier than we got humansmart. There's a good while where we're physiologically 'human' but still just apes.
>>
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Now that the retard is gone let's talk about the race wars/international strife that would ensue shortly after the birbs develop guns.
What kinds of cultures would each species/nation cultivate?
Macaws would obviously be pirates.
>>
>>62024574
If you're the same guy (which I'm sceptical about, since you sound extra retarded leading me to believe you're a troll impersonating that guy) then the only reason anyone said birds [[[could hypothetically]]] do any of those things is because you guided the conversation towards human inventions and human development, with some sort of arbitrary standard for society or civilization needing to be exactly like humans have it.
Plenty of people, earlier in the thread, pointed out that birds could fully well plant crops and use tools and communicate in a way that [[[suits birds]]], but owing to you continually responding with "lol agriculture", "lol pottery", or "lol metallurgy", people even went out of their way to BTFO you by presenting how birds could even theoretically do these things, and I guess you're leaving now that your goalposts have been backed into a corner.
>>
>>62024638
>inb4 they're the same person
>>
>>62022723
>Neolithic pottery was used to smelt ore.
>neolithic
>smelt ore

wut? copper and bronze were the first and came about in, you know, the bronze age, hence the name. 8000BC. We're talking birds hitting 10,000BC, start of modern civilization with towns, crops, and domesticated beasts of burden.

You're on an awfully high horse for having no idea what you're on about.
>>
>tfw a bird secret agent posts itt trying desperately to hide their advanced bird society while simultaneously tricking anons into coming up with new technologies for them

We've been had, lads.
>>
>>62023791
>It's a sliding goal that will never be reached until the unlikely day something that was provably not raised by humans gets uplifted and starts publicly protesting for sapient rights in english.
last thing to do that was darkskinned races.
and I'm betting robots hit it next before crows do.
>>
>>62024827
nah, she's too much a cinnamon roll for 4chan.
>>
>>62024761
Nah, macaws are the big brutes that go around bullying everyone until cockatoos arrive and show off what the power of autism-induced rage can bring to the table.
Honestly, if there's a brid nation I would never try to cross paths with, it's the fucking cockatoos.
>>
>>61985620
Why would you use a fork when you got hands
>>
>>62024904
>Toward the end of the Neolithic Era, people began to use tools made from metal. Copper was the first metal used for tools. Eventually copper replaced stone, leading to the Copper Age
Don't be a fool. The copper age is when metals became widespread, not when they were invented.
>>
>>62025413
Also
>The early Neolithic mine of Rudna Glava near Majdanpek is an example of the oldest known technology of Vinca copper working.
>>
>>62025413
>Toward the end of the Neolithic Era
i said reach neolithic, not see it through to the end.

just how many goalposts do you intend to move?
>>
>>62025521
see >>62025484
>>
>>61996364
I hate doves. Look at his eyes. He's evil.
>>
>>62012908
>impliying we would not destroy them before they're a threat
>>
>>62013884
I've done exactly that, and you're still wholly full of shit.





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