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>advantage/disadvantage from dnd:the abortion
>inspiration from same
>Palladium chargen
>Shadowrun treading water
>Runequest derived stats
>savage worlds bennies
>Mage:awakening spell resolution
more?
>>
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>>62444405
>Alignments
>Casters having multiple schools at once
>Skill "Proficiency" instead of meaningful skill ranks
>Having to pick stat increases or feats
>Absurd HP bloat and players being demi-gods by level 5
>Snowflake races like Dragonborn and Tieflings
>Short and Long Rests in the same game
>Generally being unfun all around.
>Not being 4e

Funny how all of these seem to be defining traits and even considered "progress" of one particular game.
>>
>>62444405
Level 0 spells.
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>>62444520
This guy gets it
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>>62444520
what do you expect from the owners of mlp?
also: WoD xp gainz
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>>62444535
I don't mind the existence of cantrips, but they should have fucking slots
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>>62444520
I can understand most of those complaints, but why complain about alignments in a system where they have zero mechanical impact? They aren't even a mechanic in that system, they're fluff.
>>
>>62444630
Because they generally encourage the wrong kind of mind-set from players, and spawn endless amounts of autismal arguments over how to interpret something as complex as human behavior and morals.

Play a fucking character, not a cardboard cutout.

In before retards claim that the alignment system actually helps roleplaying somehow or that "your alignment is supposed to come from roleplaying, not dictate it. You know damn well that's not how new players see it.
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>>62444520
>its this thread again
homebrew DnD until its the game you want to play, or make your own
nobody wants to play GURPs with you
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>>62444692
>DnD is a good game if you just change it to be a different game.

Or you could just try not playing DnD in the first place.
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>>62444691
Then tell your new players to ignore it instead of simmering in autistic rage that they aren't as experienced as you
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>>62444630
because like most everything in wotcdnd, it's a half-hearted attempt to satisfy the past while trying to make dnd a storygame....typical corporate compromise
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>>62444714
>or make your own
here's your (you)
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>>62444718
The saddest part is, DnD, as a game, is absolutely terrible at things like "plot" and "story". It is and always has been a dungeon-crawling looter-combat game. Trying to use it for anything else, especially to encourage roleplaying, is just stupid.

Like yeah, you CAN roleplay with DnD, but it's in spite of the game, not because of it. I can roleplay with a pack of playing cards and pretend the characters on the picture cards are living some dramatic epic story, but it doesn't make blackjack a good roleplaying game.
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>>62444405
I like Bennies
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>>62444737
I don't think you necessarily need mechanics to roleplay. I see your point tho.
>>62444692
I listed quite a few games, not just dnd
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>>62444735
He's absolutely right though, if you have to completely modify the system just play a better system. I'm not even an anti-DnD fag, but if you don't like a system look for a different system.
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>>62444782
So many things wrong with that image
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>>62444405
Classes.
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>>62444692
>nobody wants to play GURPs with you
I'm going to GM mythras this weekend, my friend will gm 'monster of the week', and you won't stop us

Nobody wants you to dictate the game they GM for you. If you're passive, you'll end up with D&D and maybe shadowrun. If you step up to GM, you can run the obscure-but-well-made game that you like, and may potentially enlighten your players to its merits.

Our hobby spawns us into a dungeon of D&D, but it also gives us a shadowed path out toward the light. Like the fabled truth-seeker in Plato's cave, we are gifted the power to escape the dark illusion that dnd is the only roleplaying game, and to witness the shining universe of roleplaying that exists beyond it.
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>>62444932
I'm a big RQ fan, how is mythras? obviously you like it...
>>
>>62444932
Maybe someday anon...
I run 5e for my drunkass college friends, and I'm happy just to hang out with them even if its not an ideal system. IMO TTRPG is a social lubricant and anecdote generator.
if your friends are down to read another set of rules and experiment with a new system, more power to your group
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>>62445144
players don't necessarily have to even read the book for OSR games(for example), just understand the basics of how their character works...at least to start off with
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>>62444611
What would this accomplish? You'd just be turning cantrips into level 1, 1 into 2, and so on...
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>>62445215
not much, admittedly. I was just trying to be ecumenical.
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>>62444405
>Worst mechanics in gaming

Armor as DODGE or chance to hit instead of fucking damage reduction.
Fuck that. Fuck whoever thought to do that.
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>>62444751
why? I feel like those kinds of mechanics ruin the gm's role as neutral referee.
>>62445287
it was the first way of dealing with it, and is in line with the extremely rules-light nature of OD&D. But yeah, DR is much better.
>>
>>62445287

God I hate this one. Fuck it. Dodge is dodge, armor is armor.
>>
>>62444960
>how is mythras? obviously you like it
I've been a stan for it for a few months, and will GM it for the first time. I've only read and done a some whiteroom test-combats so far, but what I've seen feels good.

I like how the 'special effects' seem to generate natural turning-points in every battle, and how injuries and status-effects create opportunities for characters to yield before death, or otherwise be defeated in a non-fatal manner (i.e. "I just got impaled in the arm, can't attack for 1d3 turns, my skills are at 1/10th, and I could die if I pull this spear out. Surrender is probably going to give me a better chance than continuing to fight.").

I'm looking forward to the combat mechanics, especially the "default" attack action having a number of potential effects, as well as the hit-locations, parrying, and armor. Also I like the MP system. The main thing I need to figure out is how to set up "called shots" where someone just wants to get a special effect and nothing else. Outside of that, I like the granularity of the d100 skill advancement, and the idea that any character can learn to do any skill, so people can actually decide to dabble outside their primary role without it ruining everything forever.

>>62445144
>if your friends are down to read another set of rules and experiment with a new system
They're good people. I've personally played at least three game-systems with them that aren't DnD or PF. My friend is apparently running others. I absolutely value hanging out with my friends more than any other part of RP, but it feels like we've been bitching about the same shortcomings of dnd (i.e. armor class, I-hit-it-again, vancian, fantasy-race-mixing, hollywood-knockouts, sneak attack exclusivity, etc) every other session for most of a decade. I want to get us to a place where we don't have to do that. Or at least have some different shortcomings to bitch about, from a new perspective.
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>>62445409
>called shots
RQ has them cutting your attack chance in half, which I always thought was too harsh (we still play RQ3, so maybe this is different now)\
thanks for your thoughts, i wanna check it out now
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>>62445215
I vaguely remember reading something in "Dragon" magazine (TSR era) that allowed four cantrips in exchange for a level one slot.
The same article also restricted what a cantrip could do by explicitly prohibiting them from duplicating the effects of higher level spells.
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>>62445449
>RQ has them cutting your attack chance in half, which I always thought was too harsh (we still play RQ3, so maybe this is different now)\
>thanks for your thoughts, i wanna check it out no
Yeah, I hear a lot's changed since then.

There's "difficulty grades" which reduce the skill percent by a fraction (i.e. 'hard' lets you use 2/3rd of the skill value, 'formidable' cuts skill down to 1/2, 'herculean' cuts you down to 1/10th), so I'll probably just make it either 'hard' or 'formidable' depending on how strong the SE is.
>>
>>62445287
>>62445313
>>62445407
What about a mix of the two, with light armor having more dodge but less soak, and heavier armor having less dodge, but more soak? A friend and I have been trying to build our own system and I've been looking on /tg/ for people's opinions on what they like and don't
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>>62444611
>I don't mind the existence of cantrips, but they should have fucking slots

I appreciate how in Hackmasters there's a spell point system AND spell slots:
-A level 1 mage has 140 spell points they can use to cast spells and may memorize 3 spells.
-Spells cost spell points to cast: memorized spells are less expensive, while unemorized spells are MORE expensive (I think twice as much).
-You regain spell points at an hourly rate with it taking 8 hours of full rest to recover all your spell points.

Then again Hackmasters is loaded with utility spells that "do something" as opposed to evaporating people or throwing acid.
Either way I like it.
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>>62445549
that's not bad, but the math on 2/3 could get ugly...I'd prefer a -10 or -20, as if attacking from low ground, but to each his own
>>62445576
that's not terrible, you might look at rifts' system of having Structural Damage Capacity get hit first, then HP
>>62445589
this is kind of like Dungeon Crawl Classics allowing you to cast past your slots if you risk bad effects, I like
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>>62445589
I actually hate how much utility magic exists in DnD magic system. It leads to situations where a wizard can completely invalidate people's investment into non-magical skills, as long as they have the spell slots to burn.

Plus thematically I like magic when it's a rare, dangerous, hard to control, but incredibly powerful. Fuck this "spells are perfectly crafted precision tools for every situation ever" bullshit.
>>
>>62445637
the prollem with dnd utility spells is that they step on the dick of rogue skills, having spells be focused on control and mitigation is not bad in itself
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>>62445612
>that's not bad, but the math on 2/3 could get ugly...I'd prefer a -10 or -20, as if attacking from low ground, but to each his own
They have a sidebar for "simplified" difficulty grades right next to it. Very Easy's +40, Easy's +20, Hard's -20, formidable -40, herculean -80.

I'm going to try to stick to the defaults at first, but I anticipate a nonzero chance of moving to that simpler version.
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>>62445576
Light armor shouldn't increase your dodge, it should just protect against less but be cheaper and lighter to compensate.
>>
>PbtA's codifying success with failure

Man, what a dumb fucking mechanic.
>>
>>62444691

Honestly, 5e requiring an ideal, bond, and flaw as part of character creation is *so much* better than alignments at getting new players to think about role-playing. I'm not super-fond of the execution of that idea (I hate that backgrounds give mechanical benefits because it makes you think you have to pick off the list), but conceptually it makes alignments completely pointless.
>>
True line of sight
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>>62445637
Isn't that part of why people have gotten more interested in the idea of other systems that make it so a mage can only learn one type (or school) of magic?
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>>62444405
> Fantasy Flight's (lack of) proofreading
> Also Lightning Attacks in WH40KRPGs
> Also weird psychic power scaling in WH40KRPGs
>Just...WH40KRPGs
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>>62445697
>>PbtA
oh sorry, I was talking about RPGs, not hipster wank games :)
>>62445701
what did he mean by this?
>>62445709
try rifts?
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>>62445637
You, my friend, should play WH40KRPGs
>>
>>62444405
>>62444520
I like the Ad/Dis thing cause it adds a way to increase a characters ability to succeed or fail without just increasing numbers.

Palladium is genius but mad genius, like lovecraftian middle eastern prophets.

Alignments are cool only cause of the ability to see alignments, if you use it in cool ways you can really make some neat twists. Is the murderous vigilante a hero or just a serial killer with acceptable targets?

HP bloat sucks but if you want to have a big ol fighty dungeon crawl they're needed to keep the PCs alive enough for fifty gobbos and beasties to plow through. I'll accept that better versions exists but that weird HP health bar just feels nice and crunchy sometimes.

Dragonborn and Tieflings don't work in some settings but other ones can really do wonders with demon men and dragon people. I mean those two things fit perfectly on a metal album and if you wanna sit there and tell me a metal album isn't the Ur-example of DnD fuck you buddy.

Short and Long rests are really useful for Dungeon Crawlers, giving the PCs options to gain their resources back at the expense of time. Not enough Dungeon Crawls use them for escalation of tension and that's just dumb.

Skill Proficiency is good if you wanna keep bookkeeping down. Sometimes the smallest amount of grit keeps the game going faster, especially with new players.
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>>62445689
"Increasing dodge" was misleading. Our system's base is a number of skills that increase as you use them, one being agility. Agility would be meant to increase your chance to dodge proportionally as it increased in level, with medium armor halving the bonus and heavy armor negating it
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>>62445703
Yes, but here we have DnD 5e where opposition schools aren't even a thing anymore because the creators are jacking off to wizards so hard it's a miracle they don't tear their own micrococks off.
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>>62444578
are gay people not supposed to play dnd? i mean buddy its improv, have you ever been to a theatre?
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>>62445287

"If you dodge the hit you don't take damage" always bothered me because that means when you take damage you were actually hit, and thus HP are meat points. I'm not entire sure what's a non-insane way of fixing that, though
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>>62445730
>Ad/Dis
too much bonus/penalty...it's like +/-5 in the range that matters
>palladium
edited by Adbul Alhazred
>short rests
this RUINS the resource management side of dnd imo
>>62445764
fags are welcome at my table anytime, as long as they don't make it all about their identity. what wotc is doing is virtue signaling to seem like the cool company. it's disingenuous and lame.
>>62445749
yeah that would mean actually having a minus to something oh noes
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>>62445313
I don't think the GM should be a neutral referee. He should be a combination between storyteller/director/referee (in games like Savage Worlds at least). Bennies are a mechanic which allows the GM to influence players into acting in a way which benefits the game.

As long as everyone knows what it is, it helps keep all players on the same page. And because it's positive reinforcement it means you're not 'That DM' that ruins the game of players who AREN'T playing like they like
>>
>dnd:the abortion

this shouldnt be so funny
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>>62445811
>storyteller/director
not the way I run my games, the story is told collaboratively, and there is no director...but I dont play savage, so i'll take your word for it
>positive reinforcement
not my job, you play the way you want, I don't give you presents for it. you play badly at my table, you prolly die.
>>
>>62445749
Universalist wizards need to stop being a thing as soon as they started introducing spells for everything.
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>>62444405
>advantage/disadvantage
Is a legitimately great mechanic. No reason to keep track of a million fucking floating modifiers.

God I fucking hate 3.x design philosophy
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>>62445851
I think it's too different mindsets which suit different games. You can still have a collaborative story with someone acting as director.

What sort of games do you play? This idea of the GM as a neutral referee strikes me as the kind of mindset you get from playing shitloads of dungeon crawlers.
>>
>>62445896
>. No reason
sometimes you want more or less of a bonus/penalty than +/-5
>>62445914
all kinds, from WoD to OSR to Shadowrun to RQ to Palladium...but I'm a 40 y.o. boomer who plays with other boomers who like challenge as well as character stuff.
>>
>>62445768

Thats because HP really is meat points despite the insistence from the designers that its not, if it wasnt then constitution wouldnt be its sole defining stat
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>>62445939
If you've been playing with the same group for a long time I can certainly see why you'd think Bennies are a poor system. Think back to your first few games, or when you had a new player introduced. Not everybody was on the same page. Bennies help that initial acclimation process a lot.

My big problem with the idea of the neutral GM is that it's just not true. The GM is going to the game with expectations and desires too. They also want to tell a story. Saying that they are neutral is pretending that they have no investment in the joy of the other players around the table, and even runs the risk of becoming a perceived adversarial relationship as the GM hides his rage behind the rules.
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>>62445896
Fuck that, it creates scenarios that make no sense because of how single instance of one cancels an infinite number of their opposite and makes it impossible to give small benefits out without breaking the rules.
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>>62444520

>players being demi-gods by level 5
>if characters dont drop dead after three attacks they are demigods

fuck you realismfag
>>
>>62446002
nah, I play with noobs on the internet all the time too. the gm should be neutral, otherwise who is on the mooks' side? those type of games tend to make the world revolve around the PCs imo, which leads to a world that lacks verisimilitude. but i hope you're having fun in your games, just don't try to pigeonhole me, i was playing wod in the 90s, i literally larped as a vampire in tales of personal gothic horror. I just like my games hard as chinese algebra, whether playing or running.
>>
>>62446070
It's not even a realism thing, but the fact that the average able-bodied peasant has like 5hp and the average level 5 fighter has 45 HP is just fucking retarded. You are literally a videogame character compared to other people in the world. The world of man exists as a sandbox for your Dovahkin to fuck around in and knock over all the sand castles before a real bully like a demon shows up.
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>>62446070
pretty much every other game has high lethality. wotc dnd is the one that makes everything into an i win button
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>>62444692
Making a complete system takes forever, still working on mine though I've not touched it in months

considering using it as the base for a video game RPG thing though
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>>62445409
Well, give yourself a pat on the back for being the first "have you tried not playing D&D" poster to make me honestly consider it.

I'm gonna read through Ryuutama on my day off tomorrow, seems comfy.
>>
>>62444520
>>Skill "Proficiency" instead of meaningful skill ranks
Not sure I understand, can you elaborate?

>Snowflake races like Dragonborn, Orcs and Tieflings
Agreed
>>
>>62444578
>Elves belong in our worlds, and so do you
isn't that a little redundant?
>>
>>62445798
>fags who don't make everything about their fag identity
is this just a hypothetical or have you really experienced it
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>>62446317
yeah, i've worked and played with them, but they are over age 30, so maybe that's the difference
>>
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>>62446275
Skill proficiency is so small and meaningless at the low-mid levels (the levels that people actually play at) that using your skills feels like a complete crapshoot and you'll often get shown up by characters who have never used said skill in their entire life while your character is proficient and supposedly been doing it for years. Using skills in DnD 5e feels like playing a vague game of "Mommy May I?" with the DM and then getting fucked over repeatedly because your proficiency bonus is too small to meaningfully matter.

Meanwhile the caster can bypass the problem entirely with a spell that has no fail chance whatsoever. But it's balanced because long rests. The class that can only do amazing things a few times a day is balanced against classes who can't do jack shit all the time. Great game design.

Fuck, why is DnD such total absolute shit? How can people actually defend this?
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>>62444692
>deep goose
neat
reminded me of PAs deep crow
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>>62446341
Ah okay I gotcha
>>
>>62446275
In most systems you have X amount of points to distribute among skills, or if you don't have numerical skills it's treated more as an RP benefit such as "my guy has Wilderness Survival, so in this situation I use <resource> to secure our trip from hazards!"
In 5e, it tries to be a combination of both, telling you to pick a set number of skills (modified by class/race), but instead of just giving you a general list of things to do with those skills it just gives you a numerical bonus when rolling on it.

That said, people often exaggerate this issue because they skip the section in the 5e PHB that specifically says that if someone is proficient in something you should just assume they pass skill rolls that aren't particularly harrowing or don't have interesting consequences.
>>
>>62446364
failure is always interesting tho
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>>62446374
It's not when your character fails at a simple task they've been supposedly doing for years because they didn't have a spell to do it for them.
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>>62446374
Not if the failure literally leads to just "okay I roll the skill again."
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>>62446364
>the section in the 5e PHB that specifically says that if someone is proficient in something you should just assume they pass skill rolls that aren't particularly harrowing or don't have interesting consequences.
wait wut, what page is this on?
>>
>>62446364
This hits the root of the caster problem too. Wizards get to spend a resource (a spell slot) and just automatically succeed at whatever they're doing. Meanwhile with the """skills""" system you might as well just clench your asshole and flip a coin because there's really nothing you can do to meaningfully increase your chances of success in a meaningful way.
>>
>>62446383
I've been walking for decades. i still stumble sometimes
>>62446384
in my games, the first roll determines IF it's possible, prollem solved
>>62446397
you can manipulate the circumstances to give yourself a better chance...use a crowbar to pry a door, for example
>>
>>62446158
Ignore the monster manual. Make up your own numbers for enemies, civilians, guards, etc.

If the game doesn't give your players challenge, then the DM sure as hell can.
>>
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>>62446451
Ah ye olde
>The game is good if you literally ignore the rules and world and it presents
argument.

Well, shit, how can I even argue with such flawlessly retarded logic?
>>
>>62446451
why would he work that hard when he could just play any one of he hundreds of other games out there?
>>
>>62446472
>>62446477
So it's hard to introduce an easy encounter and then later in the session mentally pump some numbers to give your players a reasonable challenge. It's definitely a lot easier then getting your game group together to learn an entirely new game system, so you can copy all the numbers directly out of the books, and show literally no creativity at all as a GM.
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>>62446451
The answer to the players being overpowered is to make everything else overpowered too!

1. DnD already does this and it's retarded.
2. No. Just no.
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>>62446472
Do people actually play just play in the dragonlance or forgotten realms setting when playing DnD? Isn't it more fun to create your own settings?
>>
>>62446491
>statblocks are creativity
sorry i have better shit to spend my creative juices on
>>62446505
I play on some version of earth in all my games, pretty much. current one is the thirty years' war, but it's the pagan reformation instead of the protestant one
>>
>>62446497
Things are not overpowered when they are balanced against your party.

Obviously a 10th level fighter should be able to beat a peasant. If your upset about that, then maybe put your fighter in a story that is applicable to a character at level 10?
>>
>>62446505
As a DM, hell yeah, world building is fun.

As an actual player, fuck that shit. I've seen way too many "MY elfs are different!" and "Here's my 300 page document about all the realistic wars that have happened in my world, be sure to read it all before making a character" abortions of custom settings that I'd rather just wallow in the mediocrity of Forgotten Realms.
>>
>>62446518
Is playing on earth, using real history, all that creative?
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>>62446536

>adapting real history to create a new narrative with a sense of verisimilitude from the inclusion of snippets of real history
yes, yes it is
>>
>>62446522
The entire argument wasn't about the party, it was about player charaters becoming videogame characters in how much more powerful and removed and they are from the rest of humanity in a setting.

It's like you're literally just shitposting to shitpost.
>>
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>>62446522
>10 level fighter beating a peasant.
This is fine

>10th level fighter literally having so many meat points that they can survive life threatening injuries and swim in lava.

This is not OK. Only DnD players think this is OK.
>>
>>62446535
I think you can get a bit of both. I've found creating a serious setting but allowing the players to fuck up your world, and be allowed to fail, and to treat the game more as a way to hang out at a table and laugh with your friends, typically makes the most fun sessions. If you are trying to force your players to listen to your version of Lord of the rings, and not allowing them to bumblefuck their way through a fantasy setting, then your game probably isn't much fun. Rolling 20s feels good, but a good DM can make the low rolls fun for everyone.
>>
>>62446317
My best player is a fag and I didn't know until he brought his BF to a party. He doesn't flaunt that shit at all and neither does any homo I know. Is this just an American problem?
>>
>>62446577
This is the DMs fault for allowing shit to happen. If your player cries that his HP is too high to die immediately on contact with lava, then you have a shitty player, and I feel bad for your group.
>>
>>62446158

Have you ever thought that its the commoners that have too little HP and not the other way around?
>>
>>62446588
see
>>62446472
>>
>>62446553
No, and the word salad doesn't make you right.
>>
>>62444405
you really did just shoot across the bow of every regular general and hot topic of the last 4 years, huh? Mage the Awakening 2E's spell system is a godsend and you're an irredeemable brainlet for saying otherwise
>>
>>62446577

>fighters must be realistic

oh, you are one of those retards
>>
>>62446594
It literally says at the beginning of the book that rules are just general guidelines and a means to play a game, but the DM's rules always trump anything in the book.

Saying the rules are what ruins the game, when the rules literally say to change shit as you see fit, then you are the problem.
>>
>>62446592
>actually arguing for MORE hp bloat
reported for shit taste
>>62446599
>word salad
your lack of vocabulary is not my prollem
>>62446604
>a godsend
did you never play ascension? much better imo
>>
>>62446586
It's born out of a culture who cares more about their "identity" than actually living life. It happens everywhere in the world where life is too easy for young people though, not just America.
>>
>>62446614
Do you have people that regularly play with you?

You sound like a pompous asshole.
>>
>>62446614

Stop pretending its not a muh realism thing when it obviously is
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>>62446606
DnD's HP bloat applies to literally every class and player characters in general. Stop deflecting. Stop projecting. Stop moving the goal posts. Come up with an actual argument or just stop posing.
>>
>>62446606
see
>>62446472
>>
>>62446628

And what is exactly your argument to begin with?, that you want everything to die fast?, not everyone likes that its not an inherent virtue
>>
>>62446614
I already knew you were baiting, but trying to claim Ascension's rules are better (or even naturally comprehensible) just makes this all the more transparent.
>>
>>62444405
Shadowrun hacking
Shadowrun grenades

>>62445730
>Alignments are cool only cause of the ability to see alignments, if you use it in cool ways you can really make some neat twists. Is the murderous vigilante a hero or just a serial killer with acceptable targets?
Scientists in a world with alignment are setting up ever more complex trolley problems, and measuring the alignment of the lever-puller before and after.
>>
>>62446628
All of these arguments are based on combat. Combat is fun when it has stakes and when it's not the focus of the game. Roleplaying and storytelling are why these games are fun. If the combat is dragging your game down, then its your DM's fault for not making combat quick and challenging. If you are the kind of asshole who needs everything by the rules, then throw higher challenge level monsters at the party. It's not that fucking hard to compensate for a strong party.
>>
>>62444520
There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a better variety of playable races.
>>
>>62446505
creativity is the most overrated quality in anything. creativity is the garnish that's on the outside and flashy, and has the most immediate flavor, but it's nothing without the meat.
>>
>>62446190
How the fuck are the players ever overpowered in a game with a GM?
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>>62444405
Advantage was one of the few fucking things 5e did right you God damn peasant. Adding +1 bonuses or penalties for random shit is fucking garbage only minmaxers and autists like.
If you really want to bitch about 'but muh granularity but muh stacking effects' then either STOP PLAYING D20 or just do this:
>1 advantage = +4
>2 advantage = +7
>3 advantage = +10
>4+ advantage =+2 more thereafter
Fucking done.
>>62444578
>insert fairy joke here
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>>62446667
It's a problem when races are shoved into established settings just because some furry wanted to be a bird-person or some shit. DnD's had a long history of just shoving shit in because of "rule of cool" with no actual thought as to how that thing would actually work with the rest of the established world.

If all your races are there from the beginning though and the world was actually crafted around them (see something like Elder Scrolls) then it's perfectly fine.
>>
>>62445726
>what did he mean by this?
in miniature games, measuring line of sight as if at eye level with miniature and being able to target said miniature if you see any portion of it like an arm.

it's garbage mechanic that completely ignores the purpose of miniatures as visually interesting representation of the unit on the battlefield, and penalizes creativity and flair.
>>
>>62446669
How are new and interesting experiences less fun then doing the same old experience, no matter how perfected? Do you just watch your favorite show over and over again, or do you watch other media to keep things interesting?
>>
>>62446070
Fuck off Lloyd
>>
>>62446683
Nothing wrong with rule of cool either, and the rest is a problem of a lack of worldbuilding.

But I can see, you are already scapegoating against specific players, and that is instead a problem of your group not handling things like adults.
>>
>>62446190
The problem isn't that it's hard to kill a PC in D&D: It's that D&D devolves further and further into rocket tag the further on you go. Whoever novas first wins.
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>>62446667
The problem is that the more variety is, the less distinct and more blended all the races become in the name of maintaining some kind of "balance" or being approachable/playable from the perspective of players. Nothing is allowed to be truly alien or exotic when it also has to be dumbed down into being a player option.

Just compare the "elves" of DnD to the mythological creatures of and you'll see they're truly nothing alike. The elves of myth are supernatural, they're Neighbours, from the other side and so forth. DnD made elves mundane, fellow travellers instead of strangers and that is what these modern elves are like as well. The Others turned into fapbait for players who wanted to be "special" without actually having to be different in any meaningful way.
>>
>>62446732
That is definitely a problem of the setting being bad, or too attached to common fantasy tropes. It is not a problem of variety in itself.
And if you speak of mechanical balance, hell, throw balance out of the window if it means a fun roleplay.
>>
>>62446732
This, it feels like most of the races in DnD are either

>Human with a single quirk
or
>Human mixed with X animal/monster
>>
>>62446754
>Throw balance out the window

Have you ever been in a game of DnD where literally everyone plays elves or half-elves because they're "best" of the default races. Yeah, that's what happens when there's no balance. It's not fun or interesting.
>>
>>62446791
Blame the GM for that.
>>
>>62446791
I've been in games where everyone has played humans, and found it enjoyable because people focused more on WHO their character was rather than WHAT their character was.

Said game wasn't DnD though, and was written with everyone being humans in mind.
>>
>>62446800
>Blame the GM for minmaxing players encouraged by a stupidly balanced system
No
>>
>>62446807
You don't even have to be a min-maxer honestly. It's not really hard to look at the PHB races and go "yeah, these two are way better than everything else if variant human is banned.

Like, it's not min-maxing when an option is just GOOD and the other options don't really measure up.
>>
>>62446816
I am really starting to like pointbuy games a lot more the longer I get into gaming. It allows for people to pick and choose stuff to use, and gives the DM more leeway with what combos he's going to ban while ALSO freeing up the possibility of exceptions given specific restrictions, etc.
I am slowly beginning to believe that D&D's problems would be fixed if it were pointbuy.
>>
>>62446807
Yes, I am going to blame the GM.
He could have sat with the minmaxers and told them to tone it down.
He could have tailored the encounters to give more advantage to less minmaxers.
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>>62446848
>Blaming a DM for anything ever

You better be volunteering to host your own game then.


Fuck man, DMing is hard, and DMing WELL is even harder. You're going to fuck up, alot. Even when you get good at it, you're going to fuck up alot. Having a game that's actually balanced in a non-retarded way helps alot with not fucking as much.
>>
>>62446848
The GM already does all of the other shit so you can sit back and play an elf game. I am not fucking here to babysit you, I shouldn't have to tell you to not fucking sperg out and break a system over your knee or 'fix' the game around the way you break it.
Fucking hell, it's as if the GM were responsible for everything and the players should just do whatever they want, because the DM needs to account to fix it because that's his job.
>>
>>62446868
>>62446870
Is sitting down with the players and telling them to tone down the minmaxing so hard?
I don't think so.
Even other players can do that.
Honestly it feels like you are blaming the rules for a player issue.
>>
>>62444405
>advantage/disadvantage from dnd:the abortion
i find it really handy
it speeds up gameplay a lot, and discourages players frpm playing the "stack the +1 modifiers" game
>>
>>62446891
It's your attitude that pisses me off.
I said it before, I'm not here to babysit you. If you ask me,
>DM, this is boring, why is everyone playing half-elves and elves
Then my response is probably going to be
>That's a good question, why don't you play a different race?
If the problem you're complaining about is caused by you, I expect you to fix it. I will sometimes shut off certain minmaxing tricks, but if you have a problem with another player, talk it out with them before coming to me. You know. Like an adult.
>>
>>62446898
>the only "mechanic" vailable to noncasters in combat is finding interesting rules interactions to stack mods
>WE CANT LET MARTIALS HAVE MECHANICS, GET RID OF IT!
Kek. Class based systems are cancer.
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>failing forward
>"dipping" character builds
>"collaborative" "storytelling"
>>
>>62446945
Do you think that that stacking variables wasn't more of a caster's game anyways, what with all the buffs they can stack on themselves?
>>
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>>62446945
Class based systems are fine in games where magic has a specific function and role besides, y'know DOING FUCKING EVERYTHING EVER.
>>
>>62446945
whats wrong with the convenience and speed?
ive actually had players actually use the environment or remember obscure features or items a lot more because they want that advantage
>>
>>62446937
You are assuming I would have played a boring ass elfshit from the start. I would not.
>>
>>62445287
>armor as Dodge
I'm not aware of any system that does this?
And if you say D&D you fundamentally misunderstand D&D combat.
>>
>>62446961
Maybe you should just play a caster.
>>
>>62446969
Good luck finding another table. You want me to host your particular style of game? Then make me want to.
>>62446972
Hm, sounds like a good idea. Maybe all of the enemies should be casters, too!
>Waah, why can the enemies cast Dominate Person? This is bullshit, DM.
>>
>>62446970
>I'm not aware of any system that does this?
D&D
>>
>>62444630
>zero mechanical impact
Ever read the Glyph of Warding description?
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>>62446945
I'd agree with you if I had ever seen a game do classless systems well. I'm not some DnD fag either, I've played lots of non-DnD games, and in every single one of them that was "classless" there were features that replicated classes or things were just a GURPS-tier clusterfuck of content with no actual organization or balance.

I want to play a good classless game. I really do. But I believe it's one of those things that's too good to actually exist in a form that's not disappointing.
>>
>>62446970
>And if you say D&D you fundamentally misunderstand D&D combat.
It literally fucking is though. There is no DR for base plate armor, just armor class which reduces hit chance.
>>
>>62446988
Then I'll find another group, one less boring. Probably one that doesn't cry over casters.
>>
>>62447015
>I need on-demand spellcasting for an interesting experience
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
>>
>>62446962
DnD is inherently about combat. 90% of the rules cover combat. Published quests heavily feature combat. Conflict is resolved with combat. If you need to "speed up" the core concept of your game to more quickly get to the parts that AREn't the focus of the game, maybe you should switch rules. I dont have a problem with simple combat. BRP is a great game and it abstracts combat to a single roll from both sides with nothing but a single stat for attack and a single stat for defense. This is fine because BRP isnt focused on combat.
>>62446961
This never happens in practice because every class based system will always have too bland and broad a selection of classes such that each class is never wholly and singly responsible for its specialty. If the classes were combat/utility/stealth/range/social and thats IT, then it would be fine. As is, you have one or two classes that do everything so well as to invalidate all others, with dozens of classes that are just bland rehashes of other classes. Instead of simplifying combat they should have pared back classes to their core strengths and made each class GREAT at one thing, ok at another, and garbage at the rest.
>>
>>62446996
There are tons of games that are classless and have neither of those drawbacks!

They're also "rules-lite" """games""" that are basically freeform... fuck.
>>
>>62445576

Somehow reminds me of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.

I like your idea and you should try using it.
>>
>>62446996
>hero
>BRP
>paranoia
>ars magica
Are you sure you meet the INT requirement for the Roleplay (classless) skill?
>>
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>>62447021
This. I fully believe you could distill DnD down to 4 classes. Fighteman, Skills Man, Magic Man, and Holy Man, and it would fine.

In fact, you could probably combine Magic Man and Holy Man and just have three main classes. The divide between "Arcane" and "Divine" magic in DnD always felt super artificial and gamey anyway, since most "real" world magical beliefs very much do involve communing with cosmic powers that are very similar to gods.
>>
>>62446991
>>62447002
Nope, AD&D is and always was a totally abstract combat system and AC represents your total ability to avoid damage for a 1 round (1 whole minute) including parrying, skidding off armour, dodging, etc.
>>
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>>62447049
Ars magica isn't a classless system. It's just a system where everyone is a wizard.
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>>62447054
>This. I fully believe you could distill DnD down to 4 classes. Fighteman, Skills Man, Magic Man, and Holy Man, and it would fine.
That's AD&D.
>In fact, you could probably combine Magic Man and Holy Man and just have three main classes.
That's OD&D.
>gamey
D&D is a game.
>>
>>62447054
The problem is that magic does too much. It covers too broad a spectrum to be distilled into one class and properly represent the manifold mystic traditions of history. Magic should be a plot device at worst or preferably something everyone knows on at least some level.
>>62447061
>AC represents your total ability to avoid damage for a 1 round (1 whole minute) including parrying, skidding off armour, dodging, etc.
>dodging
Congratulations, you played yourself.
>>
>>62447021
its a very simple way to resolve sudden modifiers that arent covered in the rules
whether in combat or out of it, i dont really think its a bad rule at all, all my epxeriences with it have been positive

in combat, people are more willing to try different things or make use of their surroundings because we just add advantage if its a good idea instead of fumbling with modifiers
and its a lot easier, and more fair, to add handicaps to the party, since they will just take the disadvantage i give them, instead of arguing that it should be a -5 penalty instead of a -10 penalty
>>
>>62447078
>Congratulations
Sorry but no cigar.
You were whining about "armor as dodge" without at all understanding that AC is 100% abstract and represents all forms of damage avoidance including damage reduction.
>>
>>62447072
I meant gamey in the sense that it always felt retarded that "arcane" casters couldn't get things like healing magic because that was "divine" magic. Like, you're telling me I can shapeshift but I can't transmute a wound closed? This becae even more confusing when shit like Druids and Bards got both Arcane and Divine magic in later editions with no real explanation why except "game mechanics". I get that it''s a game, bu come on, at least TRY to immerse me.

You are right about magic being able to do wayyyy too much though. Although older editions of the game were alot stingier with how many spells you could get, and you didn't have this "pick whatever spells you want" when you level up shit, you actually had to go out and FIND spells.
>>
>>62447101
>AC is 100% abstract and represents all forms of damage avoidance including damage reduction.
It literally doesn't, though, hence why DR and AC refer to two different things.
DR reduces a hit from X amount of damage to X-Y amount of damage, sometimes to 0 and sometimes to 1 depending on the system.
A higher AC changes a hit to a miss, the same way that dodging does. They are equivalent.
>>
>oh nooo this mechanic doesn't explicitly say that it is tied to this piece of fluff my immersion is ruined
>>
>>62447124
>It literally doesn't
It literally does.
>DR
DR in the D&D context is stupid shit as it would make no sense from the abstract system that already assumes any failed hits to your armour is included in the to-hit back and forth.
All of this is incredibly easy to grasp if one started with a good edition of D&D that understood it's own mechanics (when rounds are a minute long the abstract nature becomes very obvious) or just bothered to read Gygax's clarifications on the design.
>>
>>62447160
Read what Heavy Armor Master does. Go ahead, I'll wait.
>>
>>62447160
Armor Class is an abstraction that treats armor as damage avoidance instead of damage reduction because it's simpler and usually more satisfying to say,
>You hit with your sword, deal damage
instead of saying,
>You hit with your sword, but the damage was reduced to zero!
they are not the same thing. They are two different things.
>but Gygax says
No. They do two different mechanical things which have been conflated incorrectly because it's simpler to do things that way. If Armor Class were damage REDUCTION, then a hit would deal less damage when inflicted against heavy rather than light armor. More damage would equal more chance to bypass armor. It's done that way to simplify things because averages tend to even out better across lots of rounds of combat and using two different mechanics bogs things down.
Pendragon uses damage reduction. Armor Class is damage avoidance.
>>
>>62447064
Wrong, fuckface. All characters may take the gift. Not all with the gift are mages. Not all with supernatural abilities have the gift. "Mage" is simply one option available for character creation.

On top of that, mages arent the only character any player will have. Players will have several grogs, a companion or two, a magi, an apprentice, maybe a quasetor, all without having class based systems. Not only are you ignorant of the topic, you are objectively wrong.
>>
>>62447185
>5E trash
WotC's designers don't understand TSR's system, news at 11.
>>
>>62447209
>mage is an available option
>It's not a class though

I am confused.
>>
>>62447100
Correct, and thats what offends me about it. At its core, DnD is a game about combat. Played straight RAW, DnD is a dungeon crawling adventure game about murdering monsters and looting the boss. Simplifying the core aspect of gameplay to favor another aspect less focused is a poor decision from my perspective. Albeit, that perspective is from someone who matches tone to game and plays basically rules as presented. If i want a talky talky puzzle solvey, i dont play DnD. If i wanted a combat heavy, hack and slash epic on par with beowulf i wouldnt be playing BRP either. I feel the simple advantage/disadvantage mechanic needlessly hinders the granularity ofwhat in my opinion is the most interesting part of DnD.
>>
>>62447235
Like i said, INT requirements. "Gunslinger" is an option in gurps. Are gunslingers a class?
the right answer is no
>>
>>62447207
Again completely misunderstanding the abstract nature of D&D when treating damage, loss of hitpoints, as wounds.
>>
>>62447262
I am not misunderstanding it. You're refusing to acknowledge the fact that damage avoidance, AKA dodging, is an entirely correct term for what AC does. The reason you confuse the two is for this reason:
>Example A
>attacker hits AC 19 10% of the time, or one round in 10
>deals an average of 10 damage
>average damage per round: 1

>Example B
>Attacker hits 50% of the time, or every other round
>Deals an average of 10 damage before damage reduction
>damage reduced by 8 to 2
>average damage per round: 1

They are different things mechanically. For example, if the fighter that was struck in example A had 10 HP, he would be down the very first time he was hit, while fighter in version 2 would need to be hit five different times before dropping to 0. You confuse them because over 10 rounds, the outcome is nearly always the same. But this changes the way things play. A character taken out by a hit in example A is out, while a character hit a few times in example B has the choice to retreat or continue fighting after two hits.
>>
>>62447262
Fuck off with your retard shit. Nobody cares that you can masturbate to your own posts or how you have a super special definition of damage reduction that conflicts with the one everyone else uses, nevermind how your stupid fucking definition makes spells like Mirror Image count as DR.
>>
>>62447320
>these are different things mechanically
Obviously.
What i'm saying the latter example doesn't make any sense in relation to armour within the assumptions D&D's abstracted system makes about the nature of combat.
If you're running Runequest or whatever flawed attempts at simulationism it's fine, in D&D the armour protecting you from otherwise lethal blows during the 1 minute of fighting one round represents is already a part of the abstraction.
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>>62447364
>What i'm saying the latter example doesn't make any sense in relation to armour within the assumptions D&D's abstracted system makes about the nature of combat.
That wasn't the fucking question, you utter dullard. The question is, as stated by >>62446970
>Is armor as dodge how D&D does things?
and the answer is yes. Twat. As I have previously demonstrated.
>>
>>62447393
Meanwhile the full quote he links to is
>"Armor as DODGE or chance to hit instead of fucking damage reduction."
Which isn't the case for D&D, as is evident to most non-illiterates.
>>
Shadowrun Wireless.
>>
>>62447409
But armor does reduce chance to hit, anon. Are you well?
>>
>>62446317
>have you really experienced it
it's real
mentally undisturbed fags don't want to drag attention to themselves that much
from my experience (inb4 muh anecdotal evidence) it's the mentally challenged, self-obsessed cunt (mostly women with self-esteem issues) who roleplay as fags for attention, who ruin how fags are perceived in general, and who are pushing for what wotc has become (while not caring about the games AT ALL)
>>
>>62446341
>The class that can only do amazing things a few times a day is balanced against classes who can't do jack shit all the time.
And then you have a bard with 'jack of all trades' who basically can inspire herself, and just faceroll through any and all skillcheck
>>
>>62444405
>>Shadowrun treading water
I'll add the grenade rules in general.
>LULZ, a single grenade can kill an elder dragon if he's in an enclosed space.
I actually had to avoid grenades so the GM wouldn't cry as my street Sam murdered entire encounters in my three passes of the first round of combat.
>>
>>62446791
>elves or half-elves because they're "best" of the default races
No. Humans are the best because of their extra feat/stat, period
>>
>>62446070
By level 5 it's well within their power to take on small armies and win.
>>
>>62446961
>things everyone can do isn't completely covered by martials circle
Disgusting
>>
>>62447962
>dumping cha, int or wis
>>
>>62444520
>5e
>demigods at 5th level
Demigods don't die against a dozen of goblins or kobolds
>>
>>62447054
Fighterman and skills man can easily be rolled into one, and holy man can easily have his healing abilities turned into "mundane" variations that make him worthless as well.

Should just be fighting man, Magic Man, Hybrid Man.
>>
>>62447659
As a group, and because they have a full caster. Now put a monk or a rogue against 1/4th of that army, you will see how "demigodly" they're

In Afghanistan a single dude managed to not only survive an ambush but to kill 50 enemies he even used his knife, is he a demigod? I doubt a party of 4 can survive an army of 200 soldiers in 5e
>>
>>62448070
A level 5 barbarian can. Doubly so if he's bear totem.
>>
>>62448174
I can assure you it can't

T. Barbarian with 18 con, 16 dex, 17 str with shield who falls unconscious everytime. Fuck at 5th level 7 hobgobling trapped me in a corridor and if it weren't for the wizard I was going to die there
>>
>>62448224
Also I was a goliath barbarian
>>
>>62448224
>>62448229
Maybe you're just shit at the game
>>
>>62448248
Maybe you never played it thats why you spout the demigod meme
>>
>>62448259
Maybe you're a fucking faggot

Also hobgoblins deal more damage when they're near their buddies but even then you can just halve it
>>
>>62444405
>Perception/search checks instead of engaging with descriptions.
>Insight
>>
>>62444692
Sticking with broken D&D because of the brand "because everyone plays it" is even more retarded than sticking to GW only for miniature games.
Fun fact, in my country the default fantasy system is WFR. I know a few people who have played several different RPGs and have never touched D&D beyond vidya (if even that).
>>
>>62444630
>why complain about alignments in a system where they have zero mechanical impact?
It leads to oversimplification in player thinking.

"Hey GM, is this guy a good guy or a bad guy?"
>Well, the king is calling him a bad guy-"
" Oh cool, we kill him and take his stuff."

It leads to a very "us or them" mentality, where players don't think about other people's goals or actions, but simply use good and evil as team designators for who they are allowed to murder and loot.
>>
>>62448312
>using the player as a fulcrum of character ability
So you don't use social rolls at all, correct?
>>62448402
It is more you have poorly explained what alignments mean, and what measure they hold.
I tell my players only that if they say they are X alignment, that is shorthand for me, the DM, to expect behavior to justify what they say they are in a roundabout way. If you say you are X and don't follow up, I take issue with the player lying to me.
>>
>>62448402
In the good editions of D&D, alignment is either a fluff descriptor or only impacts otherworldly beings.
Only 3.pf applied alignments to everything and allowed players to discover the alignments of all creatures.
>>
>>62446996
UESRPG. It's classless and it works alright. Looks simple to convert to non-TES settings, though I haven't tried that. The combat crunch is really nice, too.
>>
>>62444716
>Then tell your new players to ignore it instead of simmering in autistic rage that they aren't as experienced as you
I do. Because it's a bad mechanic that should be removed.
>>
>>62447659
Different guy but going to try this today with my party, gonna make face different classes to 50 or so thugs (not even knights) and see the result. If this still on when I finshing will post results.
>>
>>62446317
I’ve recently made a new group of friends that I play with and I’m pretty sure they don’t even know I’m gay.

Shocker, the average conversation doesn’t require me to divulge I like dick
>>
>>62447054
you would probably like Microlite
>>
>>62445637
>>62445727

this.
even the first cast you ever make has the potential to explode your brain out, giving everyone in a d10 radius 2d10 piercing damage from your cranial bone shrapnel...

Suddenly, taking that automatic shotgun doesn't seem like unnecessary on your caster...
And you know what? I'm going to think of a different way of dealing with this situation, other than "I cast fireball"
>>
>>62446220

whats it about anoon?
>>
>>62446317
Sadly yes. Its one of the things keeping me in the closout since I dont want to be mistaken for one of those people.
>>
>>62444405
Humanity loss from cyberpunk 2020. While the concept is fun and all, most people see it as a simple resource and make sure they have 0.5 humanity left.
>>
>>62444405
>bennies/tokens/fatepoints
>empty stat points
>senselessly low granularity
>scripted story beats
>abilities per [out of game unit]
>>
>>62448461
>So you don't use social rolls at all, correct?
That is correct, but I HAVE tried them. I prefer that they engage with the world in a meaningful, manner rather than just having them roll some persuasion or intimidate. The socially awkward player in my group has learned to state the message he's trying to convey to the NPC's rather than his goal. So no "I try to persuade the chief", but rather, "I try to point out to the chief that...". There's no need for him to talk in first person view if he doesn't feel comfortable doing it, I just need him to state what his character is doing and how. Most RPG's encourage this, but use this merely as a modifier to some kind of social roll which I dislike since the roll will almost always have a far greater weight. I can understand the other view on this, but for my group no social rolls works fine.
>>
>>62449356
>empty stat points
wat
agree wholeheartedly with hating metacurrency
>>
>>62444405
>advantage/disadvantage from dnd
I've been using a similar mechanic for decades and I really like it. The only issue I see is the "all or nothing" approach that 5e takes. There are only three states: advantage, disadvantage, or nothing. But you add more nuance. You can allow people to stack multiple advantages, and you can allow flat number bonuses to bridge the gap between "nothing" and "advantage" if you feel you need more granularity. But taking the best of two rolls is a really handy and easy way of doing things.
>>
>>62449356
>abilities per [out of game unit]
What does that mean? Could you give an example, because I'm not following you.
>>
>>62449917
spell-like abilities per encounter is what I think he means
>>62449901
this wouldn't bother me frankly
>>
>>62449724
When sometimes an additional stat point gives you no or only very little benefit.

>When you get no modifier for every second stat point.
>When your skillpoint gain has already bottomed out at -1 INT MOD so might as well totally dump the stat.
>When a stat is only used to unlock perks and it only makes sense to buy in multiples to reach the next.
>>
>>62444405
>savage worlds bennies
A lot of mechanics are bad if you're a terrible DM.
>>
>>62449917
Fireball once per encounter/session/real life play time/roleplaybennie
>>
>>62444520
I have some cognitive dissonance from this post because most of the things you mention were actually introduced in 4e, which leads me to suspect that you are just a memer with no content.
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>>62446341
A good DM doesn't tell you the DC and adjust it as the situation dictates. The same check can be DC 10 for the skilled and DC 20 for someone with no experience.
>>
>>62450086
I'd say it is perfectly possible for one persons dislikes to be concentrated in a specific game. And it makes sense to mentally go through a system one dislikes when collecting the "worst" mechanics for a thread.
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>>62449954
>>62449356
It doesn't even make any sense to have stats and modifiers be different. Every single system that does this, including D&D, only does it because old-school D&D did it. Even old-school D&D had no excuse because it had an even stupider lack of correlation between stats and modifiers - generally every score between 8 and 14 was identical rules-wise, and yet there were randomly 101 different ways to have an 18 Strength, a subsystem nobody asked for and that only applies to one of the six stats.
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>>62449978
Oh. Okay. I was reading "ability" in the "attribute" sense, which is why it wasn't making sense. I was coming up with weird shit like "Three Dexterities per round".

But to address the issue, itself, I don't really have a problem with the mechanic. In terms of game balance, it's usually best to tag such things at least loosely to meta units. For "per encounter" powers, the important thing is to restrain the capability to use the power multiple times in a single battle, so as to keep it from becoming abusive. You can frame it in terms of time (once per hour), but that's ultimately just an indirect way of ensuring that it's once per battle.

I understand why it can feel artificial to some people--and it certainly is--but it's the most direct and least exploitable way of doing things. I just usually like to have real-world rationale behind it, even if it's a flexible sort of thing. Sort of like how my combat rounds are *around* X number of seconds, but never directly set. So a per encounter power can be parenthetically framed as being roughly once every hour (or half hour, or whatever), but in actual application it just comes down to once per encounter. And if shit ends up being shorter than that, well, magical powers aren't exact and maybe this on this occasion, it has an unusually quick turnaround time. Or not. The GM is always free to improvise, and if one encounter happens right on top of another, he is free to rule that "per encounter" powers are not replenished.
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>>62450273
>It doesn't even make any sense to have stats and modifiers be different.

It allows more variation for comparisons/contests without having to modify every single related roll, which with the amount of potential variance would mean you either have really big numbers or each adjust would be 0.2
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>>62450130
What makes the whole thing fall apart is the line at the end "not being 4e."

I think I understand it, though. You can hate games you don't play, but you can't hate specific mechanics of games you don't play because you don't know what they are. So, paradoxically, everything you hate the most will usually be part of something you love.
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>>62450273
it's that way because of the 3d6 stat roll, which creates a nice bell curve. it's the same reason why the stat bonus distribution was different in tsr dnd...in wotc's distribution, there are as many in the excellent range as in the average...it make sense statistically, something wotc has never been interested in
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>>62450273
>Even old-school D&D had no excuse because it had an even stupider lack of correlation between stats and modifiers - generally every score between 8 and 14 was identical rules-wise, and yet there were randomly 101 different ways to have an 18 Strength, a subsystem nobody asked for and that only applies to one of the six stats.
A few corrections. 9-12 is the "no modifier" range in Basic's standardized ability-to-modifier system. AD&D and OD&D abilities aren't really standardized (you usually have to get higher before you start getting bonuses in AD&D than in Basic, but you're really supposed to a more generous stat generation method to compensate).

Anyway, the ability numbers are really there because you were expected to roll dice to generate a bell curve. With that said, the scores could easily be discarded at that point, except that there was a system for rolling directly vs. your stats. A Dexterity check was made by rolling a d20 and trying to get equal to or less than your Dexterity score. Also, if you look at AD&D, individual point increases in ability scores could affect things like carry capacity, the maximum level of spell you could cast, the ability to gain access to a given class, your chance to survive being resurrected, etc. (Granted, I consider a lot of these things clutter that could be simplified or eliminated, but they did exist.)

Where retaining raw ability scores really becomes silly is when you no longer roll directly against them and there's never any difference within a given modifier bracket (so that a +1 Strength modifier tells you all you ever need to know, and your raw Strength score really is superfluous).

>yet there were randomly 101 different ways to have an 18 Strength, a subsystem nobody asked for and that only applies to one of the six stats
Are you talking about percentile Strength? Because I agree that's clunky and stupid. AD&D is frequently needlessly junky, unlike Basic.
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>>62444405
advantage is good
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>>62444520
all of those are good
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>>62444535
are good
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>>62450807
>>62450828
>>62450852
why tho
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>>62444578
when did anyone ever say faggots weren't welcome? trad games have been degenerate central since day zero
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>>62444691
you don't know what the right mindset is
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>>62444714
good luck with that, retard
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>>62444737
never had any issues doing story with d&d and it doesn't get in the way, try not sucking at everything
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>>62445287
armor should be dodge
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>>62445637
spells should be precision tools, non caster classes don't deserve to play the game
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>>62445655
fuck rogues
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>>62444578
>Elves belong in our world
no
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>>62445749
lmao stay mad martialcuck faggot
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>>62445768
why does that bother you
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>>62445764
>are gay people not supposed to play dnd?
Must be because people are fighting for that right? man, I wish I could travel back in time and tell that to one of my friends, the fucker was playing D&D/Mtg for years and years and that was illegal back then
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>>62445798
+/- 5 is the correct amount, short rests are good, penalties should only exist for martials
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>>62444520
>Casters having multiple schools at once
There's literally no problem with this in competent systems. A generalist wizard with multiple tools up his sleeve is both infinitely more interesting and a lot more fun to play than autistic specialists.
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>>62445851
your way of playing is wrong
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>>62445865
they don't need to stop being a thing
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>>62445914
dungeon crawling is the only correct way to play
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>>62451023
reported for illicit gaming and conspiracy to have fun
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>>62445939
you don't want more than +/- 5
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>>62444630
Reducing the mechanical impact and importance of alignment makes it shittier in the context of D&D. You either go all in like old D&D where the alignment is a tangible, objective force that is you can't really debate, and even has things like languages dedicated to specific alignments, or you just don't have it. Having a shitty half-measure where it's there but totally subjective and only influences a handful of mechanics is dumb and just leads to arguments about what it means from people that don't understand it.

It's another Sacred Cow that WotC totally missed the point of and only keeps in because muh tradition.
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>>62446002
gm is neutral
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>>62446950
The first and last a thousand times.
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>>62446002
you can be invested in your players having fun and still be neutral
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>>62446059
nope it's good
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>>62446072
>I played wod
dismissed.
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>>62446158
it's not retarded and PCs should be stronger than everyone else
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>>62446341
try playing a caster, retard
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>>62446397
except aid another, advantage, expertise, etc.
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>>62450086
You're aware that liking 4e is a meme and only "4rries" actually believe 4e fixed anything, right? Thats probably why it was spoiler'd out, to show a degree sarcasm.
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>>62446477
that's not working hard
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>>62446497
d&d does it and it's good
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>>62445768
>Rolling to hit is an arbitrary number with modifiers based on your own skill-at-arms and miscellaneous factors
>If you hit, your opponent can parry, dodge, roll with it, or counter-strike

>Parry, they roll against your attack, on a success their shield (or low quality weapon) takes 1/3rd of the damage they would have taken, but they take none
>If they fail the parry you successfully deal damage, check if you damaged their armor or them

>Dodge, they attempt to avoid the strike entirely by moving out of the way with a roll against your attack, on a success the hit becomes a miss
>If they fail they have wasted an action and you successfully deal damage, check if you damaged their armor or them

>Rolling with the hit, they accept the damage and make a roll against your attack, on a success they take half damage and disengage, check to see if you damaged their armor or them
>If they fail, etc

>Counter-strike, they take the hit and hit you back with no defensive actions allowed
>Both of you deal damage and check if you damaged their armor or them
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>>62446553
no it isn't
>>
>>62446554
being powerful is good
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>>62451040
In a team-based game it's generally good if classes have both strengths AND weaknesses, so that they have to play in such a way where they cover and rely eachother and genrally all bring something different to the table.

Every wizard in DnD is the same exact shitty "universalist" with no weakness other "I might run out of spell slots."

Fuck universalist wizards and the people who play them.
>>
>>62446577
if he survived the injury it wasn't life threatening
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>>62446614
hp bloat is good
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>>62446620
yes, and they pay me for the privilege
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>>62446577
I miss when 4e called half HP "bloodied" specifically to tell you "yeah you weren't actually injured until now"
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>>62446626
actually it isn't
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>>62446667
variety is bad
>>
>>62451398

Say what you want about 4e, it at least gave wizards a solid theme of 'Lots of control but have trouble directly ending a fight'.
>>
>>62446683
that's not a problem
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>>62444611
Spell slots is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. I want a system where the probability of catastrophic failure grows as you exert yourself, not fixed number of spells you can cast.
>>
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>>62451431
this required no creativity, apparently
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>>62446686
creativity is just a buzzword, don't use it.
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>>62446577
>>62446588

>swim in lava
Does 18d10 damage a round, meaning about 90 on average.

A fighter only has d10 hit dice. So a level 10 fighter would have 10d10 (Maybe with a +20 to +40 hit points depending on con). On average, 80 to 100 health.

That's still instant death in a single round.

Even if he's just wading through waist-deep lava, or has minimum contact with lava, that's still 10d10, average of 50 damage. So that's two rounds. (Statistically, the upper and lower limits of the bell curve are 30-70 damage a round for just wading, so if they're lucky and have lots of health they can last 3 rounds.)

The grandmother in Dante's Peak lasted longer than that.

Plus, HP isn't meat points. It's an abstraction+combination of meat points, close scrapes, battle weariness, and fate points.
>>
>>62446713
played plenty of campaigns to lvl 40+, never turned in to rocket tag
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>>62445233
I’m not sure you know what “ecumenical” means.
>>
>>62446732
player races can be alien and exotic and not dumbed down
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>>62446807
yes
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>>62446868
been DMing since 70s, all problems are always the DM's fault
>>
>>62451493
Shit Latin, but this is actually kinda cool
8/10 would play in
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>>62446945
class based systems are objectively good
>>
>>62446945
I'm working on my own class-based RPG where each class has different yet distinct mechanics, each of which gives a character equalish ability to do things.
>>
>>62446950
all of those are good
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>>62446961
magic should do everything
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>>62446988
if you were a caster you could protect against dominate
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>>62451738
Everyone should have magic.

Fighters have Ki that allows them to block fireballs, cleave mountains in half, wade through lava.

Rogues have Shadow Magic, that allows them to turn invisible, teleport short distances, create illusory copies, or cloud the minds of others.

Wizards have Arcane Magic, which is mostly fireballs, transmutation, and conjuration.

Clerics have Divine Magic, which is either Holy (healing) or Profane(necromancy)
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>>62451837
just play RuneQuest, faggot
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>>62451847
no u
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>>62447049
none of those are good games
>>
>>62447054
arcane doesn't require caster to believe in anything
>>
>advantage/disadvantage and Bennies are bad
>>
>>62447049
>Ars Magica

>Let's play this game that's set in the 1200s, with the slight change where there's actual factual MAGIC!
>What, you wanted to play a wizard? No, the wizard you made is off farming toadstools for the next three centuries. You have to play as his hunch-backed assistant for the whole campaign.
>>
>>62447123
healing is divine, not arcane, and that's how it should be
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>>62447250
RAW doesn't require you to engage in combat, in fact the rules can do nothing at all to influence the type of game you choose to play
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>>62447659
no it isn't
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>>62448312
>you shouldn't use the skills you invested in, in the situations that are the reason you invested in those skills
>>
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>>62452042
maybe certain things shouldn't be skills at all
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>>62448332
>in my country
dismissed.
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>>62444535
should exist but should not be regularly or reliably useful for free.

Either a chance of failure, or a usage limitation, or a cost is necessary.

Imagine instead of a host of cantrips a prestidigitation/unseen servant combo spell that costs no slots and creates a magical effect that replicates 1 mundane item or service at a time, up to 1 hour, at the cost of that good or service?

Very versatile, still unlimited use but no longer scott free, and it means you can only have 1 cantrip effect going on at once period so choice matters, and swapping back and forth can get costly.
>>
>>62448402
us vs them is the right mentality, npcs exist to be looted
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>>62448765
lol fag
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>>62449461
fucking retard, stats exist for a reason
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>>62449954
you can't have negative skill points
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>>62451398
universalist wizards are the only correct type
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>>62445963
Constitution is about how far you can run, not how many inches of fat you have protecting you.
So of course it adds to HP, since it shows how much extra effort you can put into dodging.
>>
>>62451493
correct, it didn't
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>>62452320
ok cool, post yours
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>>62451837
wrong, martials shouldn't get anything
>>
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>>62445798
>>62445939
Wait, hold up, 2d20 drop lowest is only 13.82 average, versus 10.5 means it's only +3.32

Which is 16.6% which is very similar to getting +1 on a 1d6 based game (16.67%)

Really it's not an extreme value and is a pretty elegant solution to giving a reasonable bonus without significantly increasing calculation time


Not that I really agree with WotC RPG design philosophy, but die pool mechanics tend to be pretty elegant solutions to calculation slowdown in tabletop
>>
>>62452057
everything your character can do should be a skill
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>>62452359
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFlDH9COQKQ
>>
>>62452343
there's no such thing as a good setting
>>
>>62450368
>>62450515
You guys are both arguing in a circle by assuming that. the whole 3d6 bell curve thing is a sacred cow that just had to be that way and not something Gary made up for his own game. The premise that D&D characters should be statistically average people is one that didn't hold up under examination.

Also, if you consider how the ability scores are actually used in the game, the bell curve isn't a bell curve at all. It's an awkward plateau with tiny steps on either side. There's a big flat top (the range of ability scores with no modifiers at all) and little steps on the left and right for when you actually get modifiers.
>>
>>62444405
Advantage/Disadvantage is a really fucking elegant solution. It increases the odds of a favorable outcome without blowing up stats and scales to all levels appropriately. Advantage is as helpful at level 20 as it is at level 1 and hooking it into all these class abilities makes for meaningful synergy in a lot of effects.

Inspiration looks like a pretty shit roleplay-reward mechanic though seems pretty optional.
>>
>>62444960
It’s better in almost every way, a little wordy but that’s because the terminologies are important. The core book is the best rpg book as far as organization that I’ve read and it’s fixes a lot of the problems that RQ still has
>>
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>>62452443
>sacred cow
no we were explaining why the system is how it is....it made sense internally, unlike the inbred homonculus that is wotc
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>>62450124
There are games where the core resolution mechanics actually help the table generate useful and interesting outcomes and don't have to be fudged, redefined, or ignored.

The work a DM has to go through in order to 'fix' D&D could be spent actually creating fun and memorable campaigns in systems like:

>Barbarians of Lemuria
>Torchbearer
>Blades in the Dark
>Fellowship
>Genesys

Sorry to sound like a 'Have you tried not playing D&D' fag, but after having been talked into playing a frustrating session of 5e I really empathize with >>62446341
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>>62452202
-1 INT MOD is the point at which you can already reduce your skill gain to its lowest possible value of one per level in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder if you are a fighter. It is obviously not the skill point number, after all I wrote INT(elligence) MOD(ifier).
>>
>>62450515
>Are you talking about percentile Strength?
Looks like it. Having 18 strength, which you could have if you weren't a fighter, was not exactly the same as having 18/01 strength, making a total of 101 different points of ridiculous granularity on one spot on one scale. And, not coincidentally, it's the high end of the scale. Evidence if any was needed that D&D has never been about rolling 3d6 in order and taking your chances with a random average peasant; it's been about constantly rerolling, cheating, and inventing new methods of ability score generation until you can have a big beefy fantasy hero.
>>
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>>62452516
It made no sense and it was a lie. To demonstrate, I've overlaid a graph of how actual strength modifiers actually work in AD&D.
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>>62452545
d&d doesn't need to be fixed
>>
>>62448797
The system or the game?

The system is trying to be a universal combat focused one, it doesn't use traditional stats, rather all of the races are based on the human stat block, and I try to give them a combat focused trait and a more minor trait related to their death or general health.

Attack/Skill rolls are D100 based. Has plenty of crafting rules as well, and the currency is a wealth based system, where you're not really worrying about counting every gold piece that comes your way.
-
-
002:Human Stat Block

Name : Human
Height : 1.5m
Hit Points : HP: 50
Magic Points : MP : 50
Speed : SP: 5
Carry Weight : CW: 20kg
Traits : TR:
Favor of the Gods | Once every 24 hours you can flip a D100 result.(a 69 would become a 96)
Stubborn |Increase the death value of a human by 50%, humans normally die at -15HP


Unless stated otherwise, all humanoids share these stats.
IQ:Sentient Average
Size : Medium
Defense Rating : 50

Other Race Examples from the fantasy setting:

Orc 1.6m HP:50 MP:30 SP:5 CW:25kg
Ignore Pain | Once every 24 hours you can delay the damage of a hit against you until the end of your next turn, so long as that damage would not have brought you below 1 HP.
Berserk | While injured this creature gains +2 to speed
>>
>>62452443
>>62452516
>>62452721
https://anydice.com/
>>
>>62452594
that's not what you meant
>>
>>62452746
You are really not getting the point. I know that that's the distribution of 3d6, but the distribution of 3d6 is not actually used in D&D, even though it tells you to use it.

First thing, you'll note that the game never uses your ability scores directly. It always converts them into modifiers, so, for example, there's no difference between having a score of 12 and 13. Second, the modifiers are not even symmetrical. The modifiers on the left of the average roll of 10.5 are quite different from the modifiers on the right.
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>>62447021
>if the classes were combat/utility/stealth/range/social and thats IT
but people hated d20 modern
>>
>>62445576
That's actually exactly what I did with my system.

>Light armor increases dodge threshold
>Medium armor has smaller dodge increase, but some damage reduction as well
>Heavy armor has large damage reduction, but also decreases your Dex slightly

Not perfect, but I think it's fairly balanced
>>
>>62451398
A well designed system can have good universalist wizards with strengths and weaknesses.
>>
>>62447021
4e gets a lot of shit, but the roles thing was rather similar to what you're talking about with your second point.
>>
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>low damage
>but has blistering rate of fire that ends up out dpsing other conventional weapons





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