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We all know that WotC has changed the Forgotten Realms a lot over the three editions since TSR went under. But, what exactly has changed between 3rd to 4th to 5th editions? I want to try and put together a list, and I figured /tg/ was the place to ask. Please, let's leave the edition-warring out of it, okay? I just care about what changed, I don't care about whether you thought it was good or not.

For example: Visionary orc warlord Obould Many-Arrows begins establishing the orcish nation of Many-Arrows in 3e, it has been around and acknowledged as a sovereign nation for 100-200 years in 4e, and it is unceremoniously destroyed by the dwarves after the Sundering in 5e.
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>>62816931
The obvious answer is Matizca went and came back, but no one knows how much it changed after being exposed to Abril for close to 200 years.
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https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spellplague
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Sundering
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Beware the purple beast
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765898-Forgotten-Realms-So-what-has-the-Sundering-changed
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>>62816931
>FR after 2e
Literally who gives a shit?
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>>62817296
I've been trying to sift through all the 2e material to determine what was Greenwood's original ideas and what was dreck added later.

Like how FR11: Deep Dwarfs is Greenwood yet Anrouch and Al-Qadim changed up a portion of setting to shove something that wasn't initially part of it in.
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>>62817328
Well, you're probably better off asking the autists on Candlekeep.
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>>62817389
They said to accept everything that is canon
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>>62817410
Even and especially the stuff that's contradictory.
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>>62817410
lol
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>>62817410
>>62817428
Didn't expect anything else from setting-obsessives.
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>>62817451
To be fair, what other fantasy settings besides FR and Warcraft attract people that autistic? Sure there's handfuls of people who obsess about anything you can name - I recently discovered that there are crazy vacuum cleaner obsessives out there with whole YouTube channels and communities devoted to the topic - but FR and Warcraft both attract truly amazing numbers of people more interested in those settings than they are in breathing.
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>>62817296
Because 1d4chan has an article on Forgotten Realms and the FR wiki is incredibly out of touch, it barely finished updating to 3e, never mind 4e, so 1d4chan may as well get shit done and tell players how FR has changed over the editions.

Besides, the Realms has way too much lore to keep track of, especially for newcomers to the hobby.
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>>62817507
>1d4chan
see
>>62817443
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Since we're here, what's your favorite FR city-state/nation?
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>>62817507
Hence the two different attempts by WotC to make it more accessible.

4e: Blow it all up and make everyone mad
5e: Ignore it and regulate the entire canon to a few paragraphs, become insanely popular.
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>>62817578
Is it Indian themed?
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>>62816931
Do you actually want the start of changes with what 3e did to the setting or are you using the 3e FRCS as a base?

>>62817328
Assuming you're the same person, suggests you want to start with the basis of what FR was before 3e.

>>62817593
Halruaa isn't really indian themed, no, but it's magic rich out the yin-yang. In AD&D it was described as almost everyone knowing basic cantrips, and something like 30% of the population being leveled wizards. As a result it describes the way people act there as being particularly different, also they have magical air-conditioning in their homes because why the fuck not. IIRC 3e toned down some of the magic.
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>>62817578
Hillsfar....Its god damn perfect.
>not speciest
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>>62817668
I'm the OP. I'd prefer to start with what 3e changed from AD&D, if possible; I do have the 4e Realms Campaign Guide and 5e's SCAG, so I can probably describe what changed from 3e and then from 4e.

In fact, would it help if I just started summing up how Faerun is described in the 4e Campaign Guide? So people who know the 3e Realms can actually pick out what has or hasn't changed?
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>>62817668
I have the Grey Box and getting some of the FR series, Ijust want to know when to stop, there being a different tone between Greenwood's FR and what TSR created.
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>>62817328
>I've been trying to sift through all the 2e material to determine what was Greenwood's original ideas and what was dreck added later.

This is unfortunately almost impossible. Even in the original printing of the grey box, it was later admitted that the Moonshae section (and the novels that had been printed in advanced for it) were originally for a completely different setting that TSR forced into the Forgotten Realms. The best way to really get an idea of Greenwood's original ideas is to go through the "So Saith Ed" threads on candlekeep, looking up any interviews or discussions he or other writers have put out about old TSR content, and combing through the books/boxes of the time to find content.

Given the So Saith Ed threads have literally been going on for years, good fucking luck combing through them. It doesn't help that Ed is careful about certain topics, since he doesn't want to accidentally fuck up an NDA.
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OP, how many FR books have you actually read?
Should've asked this earlier.
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>>62817762
It's an eclectic array, to say the least.

Few, if any, of the FR-based novels.

A handful of AD&D Realms splatbooks, and many only partially - Dwarves Deep and Demihuman Deities most prominently.

I have access to the whole list of 3e Realms splats, but I haven't memorized them.

I own the 4e Realms Campaign Guide and PHB, and all the issues of Dragon & Dungeon with Eyes on the Realms articles.

I own and have read the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

Basically, I only know the most broad strokes information - Lantan was devoted to the worship of Gond, god of technology, and so was the most technologically (magitek?) advanced place on the Realms until it was sunk during the Spellplague.
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>>62817711
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/60862307/
That thread has a lot of the 3e to 4e stuff, and some discussion on changes between editions.

2e to 3e I'm going off of memory here, and I admit it's been a while but the highlights:
Harpers shifted from secret society that was seen as terrorists in some nations/regions to general good guys
General technology got moved back several years, guns, printing press, cannons, etc.
The spelljammer references more or less got removed.
IIRC there was a pretty decent shift in deities, Bane coming back, Myrkul having a way to come back (and later being destroyed for good), and oddly Bhaal not having a way to return despite the fact that when they became the Dead Three, Bhaal was the one who was foreshadowed to return due to the fact his essence was still impacting the world after his death.
I think this is where the wall went from punishment for blasphemers/heretics to "cosmic force powered by agnostics."
Zhentil Keep went from a place trying to recover from formerly being under military control by an evil group, to being totally evil city corrupt to the very core under the control of that group.
And generally a lot of the places with dark aspects got pushed entirely into the evil camp, while more positive places were given a nicer spin (such as the steel regent lightening up A LOT of the restrictions/regulations her dad had built into Cormyr).

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot but that's what comes to mind right away.
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>>62817793
Why haven't you downloaded all the pdfs yet?
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>>62817714
>Ijust want to know when to stop, there being a different tone between Greenwood's FR and what TSR created.

Well if you just want Greenwood's FR, first you got to remember that his FR the Time of Troubles never happened. Which immediately throws a massive wrench into continuity given how far reaching the effects of that are in the various books that followed.
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>>62817927
I have downloaded them, I just haven't read them, at least not enough to have memorized every single detail in every single splatbook.
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>>62818033
Ah, okay. I made an assumption based on
>I have access to the whole list of 3e Realms splats
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>>62817794
Yeah, that was my work. But copy-pasting from there will make it easier to keep this thread alive.

>Portal network went haywire, mostly never recovered.
>Elminster lost most of his uber-mojo.
>Drizzt's buddies died of old age, and he retired.
>Returned Netheril from 3e is actively trying to conquer places, and has even turned a big chunk of the Anauroch Desert back into the grassy steppes & forests it was before Karsus fucked them over.
>Lantan (Faerun's proto-Eberron) was sunk.
>Halruaa (uber-magocracy in the south) blew up.
>Half-drow theocratic empire devoted to Loviatar fell.
>Great big canyon leading straight to the Underdark opened up.
>Calimshan became full of genasi & genies.
>Maztica was swapped for Returned Abeir.
>Genasi kingdom appeared in western Chessenta.
>Orcish kingdom of Many-Arrows is 100-200 years old and actually starting to civilize orcs as a species.
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>>62818178

>Aglarond: Simbul is gone, presumed dead, in fact mad and powerless and locked up in Elminster's basement. Thayans stranded by the rise of Szass Tam's necrocracy are a problem.
>Akanul: Crazy mountainous kingdom of genasi appeared out of nowhere in Western Chessenta.
>Amn: Full of corrupt and greedy merchants... is this actually a change?
>Baldur's Gate: A thriving multicultural, multiracial city-state that somehow houses more than it logically should.
>The Beastlands: Formerly Veldorn, now a patchwork of warring city-states, many of them ruled by monstrous overlords, including a rakshasa rajah, a dracolich named the Everlasting Wyrm and the ghost of a druid named Voolad.
>Calimshan: Ancient rival genies Calim and Memnon were freed from their prison. Place is now full of genies and genasi as a result.
>Chessenta: Cult of Entropy is officially dead, but there are people planning on reviving it.
>Chult: Land-bridge to the Shining South was sunk in catastrophic tsunamis.
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>>62818209
>Cormyr: Has changed from an Absolute Monarchy to a Constitutional Monarchy. Has completely walled in the city of Wheloon and turned it into a prison-city for Shadovari agents and political prisoners.
>The Dalelands: Some have been conquered by Sembia, others have militarized, Elminster has lost most of his uber-magical abilities.
>Damara: Is now a rural, frontier land of unstable adventurer-lords that could fall apart if its self-professed "overlord", King Yarin, deposes the wrong political rival.
>Dambrath: The Crinti - half-drow theocracts of Loviatar - have been deposed, primal magic & lycanthropy now dominates this place.
>Dragon Coast: Shoreline has receded sharply due to lowering of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
>Durpar: Has developed a weird fashion of replacing limbs with magical prosthesis made from an Abeirian crystal.
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>>62818246
>Rasheman: Pretty much unchanged from what little I know of it? Harsh, rugged land where most of the magic-users are women who wield a mixture of primal and arcane magic, lots of fey, really rugged Russia-esque terrain, spirit-invoking blessed berserker warriors, constant battles against the Tuigan Horde and Thay.

>Thay: Szass Tam transformed himself into a super-powerful lich and promptly went crazy, drinking deep of the stereotypical "necromancy is the best" and "the dead are more useful than the living" koolaides. Has seized control over Thay and instituted a necrocracy. Many other Thayans have either fled or chose not to return after conquering other lands abroad and then learning Szass had taken control. These "exile" Thayans want Szass destroyed so they can end his necrocracy. Szass tried to achieve godhood, but the ritual was thwarted by a desperate alliance of his enemies; he needs to conquer new, unspoiled territory before he can try it again.
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>>62818347
>East Rift: What was the Great Rift has expanded enormously; the old Great Rift's floor is just a shelf on the eastern wall of a canyon that pierces the Underdark. So, new name.
>Elfharrow: Used to the Misty Vale. Dried up into dry steppes & prairies after the Spellplague. Full of xenophobic elves; not sure if that's new? Book says they were there before it dried up.
>Elturgard: Theocracy dedicated to Torm, taking proof of its holiness from the miniature second sun that shines permanently over its central city, Elturel. Kind of intolerant, and proud of it.
>Erlkazar: Sleepy, peaceful, backwoods region of tiny pastoral villages. Also home to a budding army of vampire-controlled bandits.
>Estagund: Other than an influx of kenku settlers, apparently hasn't changed?
>Evereska: The barrier between the material and the Feywild is apparently particularly thin here.
>Evermeet: Reputed to have been destroyed by the Spellplague, was actually translocated from the material world to the Feywild.
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>>62818178
>Returned Netheril
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>>62818472
>The Great Dale: Was scarred by the efforts of a monster called The Rotting Man in the Year of Rogue Dragons?
>Halruaa: Completely annihilated by the Spellplague when it sent all their magic haywire.
>High Imaskar: New nation founded on the ruins of Mulhorandi by Imaskari settlers.
>The Hordelands: Nothing seems to have happened here.
>Impiltur: Is in decline due to the falling of the Sea of Stars ad the devastation of the Spellplague. Currently overrun by a fanatical demon-cult.
>Lake of Steam: Warm water lake region created by the eruption of a volcano in the year 1386 DR ("Year of the Halflings' Lament") - don't know if this is new.
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I wonder why the brought Bhaal back?
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>>62819000
They brought back all of the deities from pre-ToT because in marketing they said they want FR games to be able to be any time period and they would print material to support this.
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Bump
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>>62819959
Plus, as this thread shows, a lot of people really did prefer the pre-Time of Troubles rendition of the Realms, and Bhaal is arguably one of the more "normie friendly" distinct gods of the Realms, seeing as how Baldur's Gate the Series was a thing and all.
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>>62824011
Very true, and even before Baldur's Gate, he was probably the most cool of the Dead Three, which is I find weird to say given his portfolio and personality, but when you look at the stories about them before they became gods...

>Bane is this dude hellbent on controlling people and being a massive asshole. Despite having been through several adventures, including killing lesser gods or god-like beings with these two guys who have stuck through with him through thick and thin, he still tries to fuck them over in the end just to get more power for himself

>Myrkul is the weirdo who spends all of his time fucking with the undead, researching necromancy, and finding new and exciting ways to torture people. When it came to power he just wanted to have more time to fuck with the dead (as well as invent a magical artifact that would let him possess/fuck-with-the-living).

>Bhaal is a serial killer who just enjoys murdering people. As in that's it, he just likes killing. He's also apparently a really likable guy who attracted the ladies like nobodies business and inspired them into doing terrible things so that he could later sponsor a couple of them into becoming goddesses just so he could keep giving them the D.
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>>62824159
Yep. Frankly, a lot of the Realms' gods are just not very interesting, anyone else think that?
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Okay, I'll start posting more 4e stuff soon, but come on, does nobody have notes on how things changed between 2e and 3e?
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>>62817793
If you want magical knowledge for FR, download Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, along with the 3e Magic of Faerun.

If one of those doesn't have something of interest about FR magic, then it's obscure enough that you're better off asking anyway.
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>>62818178
>>Elminster lost most of his uber-mojo.
Didn't actually happen.

He kept it, technically, it's just that using it drove him insane because it was the essence of a dead goddess trying to fill a vacuum (absent deity of magic) without being enough to do it (as Bilbo says in Fellowship, butter scraped over too much bread).

It's only in 5E that he's been actively nerfed, because Mystra has been weakening her Chosen for some reason only she knows.
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>>62816931
OP, for a base, you may want to read The Grand History of the Realms, one of the very last splats released for 3.5. It's pretty much one autist's "what the fuck happened in the Realms for its entire god damn history" effort, literally. It was written by some fan that WotC found and paid to complete it (he'd already written most of it before WotC found him, just for fun). It's compiled from any source available up to the end of 3.5. If you want to know what the Realms looked like at the end of 3.5, Grand History is as good as it gets in a single place and if you already know what the Realms looked like at the end of AD&D the changes should stand out nicely to you.

Other anons can help you with 4e/5e and have here. Didn't see a lot of mention of 3.5's changes, so figured you'd want to know about this source.
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>>62828512
The real reason is because Ed is sick and fucking tired of writing him but he's easy to write and get a profit, which keeps up his part of his hilariously favorable contract with WotC.
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>>62828897
Well, yes. But I assumed anon meant the in-world reason, not that Greenwood wants to write somebody new and more interesting to him like he's wanted to do for the past near-three decades. Literally, ever since Elminster in Hell in 2001 he's been bored to tears with the character.
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>>62818497
>Luruar (The Silver Marches): Allegiance to the dwarfholds of Abdar, Mithral Hall and Felbarr has wavered. Exists in a tenuous peace with Many-Arrows. Three local dungeons; Tombs of Deckon Thar, Tower of the Tree Slaker, and Xammux.
>Luskan: Has crumbled into decline due to the fall of the High Captains, leaving the city in ruins and mostly abandoned.
>Many-Arrows: Century-old fledgling nation of the orcs. Exists in a tenuous peace with its neighbors, but war could break out - externally or internally - any day now.
>Moonsea: The Shadovar have a prominent presence here, but their conquest efforts have been stymied by a tenuous alliance between Myth Drannor, Hillsfar, Melvaunt and Thentia.
>Moonshae Islands: Swarming with fey and portals to the Feywild, threatened by Amnish mercenaries, who have taken the southern island.
>Murghom: Shook off the control of Mulhorand, but has now become ruled by a loose coalition of dragons.
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>>62817683
Well pilled, my red friend.
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>>62828260
The reason no one has a definitive list is because the changes were a lot more subtle for the most part.
There were supposed to be huge changes, but someone last minute canned that idea, presumably because they realized it would piss of all of the FR fans, as they found out it did with 4e.
So instead what they did was they altered the time scale of the FR, if you look at the AD&D2e FR main setting material it gives a timeline of how certain big events will change and alter the face of the Realms permanently, and 3e FR decided to ignore as much of that as they reasonably could, since only the most hardcore of turbonerds even remembered those timelines existed.
From there they simplified a lot of the factions and nations, but the older FR fans hardly notice that because they're relying a great deal on their 2e knowledge instead, which is part of why the FR wiki is still like 30% TSR material without updates, and 55% only updated to 3e. The newer players still found the 3e FRCS more interesting than 3e's butchering of greyhawk, so they didn't often go looking back to 2e to see what the changes are, because why would they assume it was any different?
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>>62826345
I find their faiths far more interesting than the gods themselves. The contradictions and butting of heads within Tyr's faith especially.
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>>62829331
>Myth Drannor: Strongest state remaining between Sembia and Thay, subtly trying to oppose the efforts of Netheril without directly going to war.
>Najara: A monstrous realm in the Serpent Hills consisting of yuan-ti and lizardfolk ruled by nagas. Currently ruled by a Huge-sized level 25 Dark Naga named Jarant.
>Narfell: A minor ice age has made the region colder than it was pre-Spellplague, leading to a re-emergence of the ancient Nar practices of demonbinding and a surge in the local tiefling population.
>Nelanther Isles: Pirate-haunted archipelago, devastated by tsunamis during the Year of Blue Fire. Lantan and Nimbral, minor nations present in this area, were seemingly destroyed by the Spellplague.
>Netheril: Land of the Shadovar, returned from the Shadowfell. The former desert has begun reverting to the way it looked before Netheril was destroyed.
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>>62830148
>Okoth: The Sarrukh are slowly rebuilding after a religious civil war in which the Church of Set was crushed by the Church of Sseth.
>Rashemen: Hasn't noticeably changed from 3e.
>Raurin: Hasn't noticeably changed from 3e.
>Sea of Fallen Stars: Geography has changed due to the fall of the sea's depth, and a civilization of aboleths has risen to cause problems.
>Sembia: Has been mostly conquered by the Shadovar of Returned Netheril.
>Tethyr: Has fallen into civil turmoil, as the central authorities are too weak to maintain control.
>Thay: See above.
>Thesk: Currently suffering from civil instability, as there's nobody strong enough to become the sole governing power.
>Turmish: Has fallen into total chaos due to geographic upheaval.
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>>62830949
>Tymanther: Nation of free dragonborn that replaced the nation of Unther.
>Vaasa: Falling under the sway of a malevolent, meteor-worshipping cult of arcane warriors called the Warlock Knights.
>Var: Sank beneath a shallow sea by the Spellplague.
>Velen: Broke away from its former colonial masters in Tethyr and is struggling to remain independent.
>Vesperin: Fledgling nation born from a union between several city-states in the Vast.
>Vilhon Wilds: Has been left a lawless, frontier region of wilderness and abandoned ruins of Spellplague-ravaged towns.
>Waterdeep: Hasn't changed noticeably between editions.

Do we want to talk about Returned Abeir? Because Waterdeep is the last area discussed in the 4e FRCG.
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So how did people react to the Second Sundering? Suddenly kingdoms unseen for 100 years return, the drowned dead of Lantan are pulled screaming from their afterlife to live and die again, the North collapses in anarchy as nations begin to destroy each other and the sea of Fallen Stars drowns the new towns formed.
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>>62832669
It's not mentioned in the splatbooks like, at all, to the best of my knowledge. They barely mentioned the destruction of Many-Arrows, and it'd been at peace with its neighbors for 300 years before the dwarves just suddenly rolled in and killed them all.
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>>62832669
IRL? No one cared because all of the old FR fans jumped ship by now.
In setting? No one cares because Greenwood can't give a rat's ass about what WotC has done with his setting, and no one at WotC cares either. Which is funny when you consider that they hired on one of the guys who was responsible for collating a lot of the FR lore and making it more palatable to newer players back in the early 3e days, but apparently don't give him any FR related shit to do.
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So the lesson is that WotC didn’t need to destroy the setting because if they had just shoved the changes in, no one would have cared.
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>>62833090
Pretty much.
If you look at the candlekeep forums, people fucking love to ask the writers (when it's their writing), or just theorize on how new fluff pieces co-exist or mix in with old fluff pieces. With 4e straight up removing large chunks of the setting they felt pretty betrayed.
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I never understood why the setting was so tied to novels and when they were all cut back, I was thrilled.
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The Weave is exclusive to Toril, right?
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>>62833744
Yes, no one in the multiverse cared that it collapsed.
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>>62833824
Has the Weave ever been mentioned as a reason why Faerun seems to have so many high-level wizards?

Has any difference (fluff-wise, I mean) between preparing spells on Toril and preparing spells outside of it ever been mentioned? It seems like preparing your spells without the Weave would be something that Toril's wizards would have to actually learn before fucking off to another plane. Something like riding a bike without training wheels.
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>>62834408
Sort of. Mystra and Azuth are more actively involved in teaching magic than other gods in the multiverse by using the Magister, Chosen, and making followers take at least one apprentice in their lifetimes.
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>>62833744
>>62833824
>>62834408
>>62834441

The Weave is fuckin' weird. Since it's supposed to be a Toril only thing but canonically the reason you can't cast spells past 9th level any more is because Mystra's mom got blown up by freaking the fuck out when Karsus tried to take her job with a 12th level spell.
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>>62834488
It varies from setting to setting, in Greyhawk it's because all the 10th level+ spells were lost with the mutual destruction of ancient empires.
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>>62834511
Yeah, but in theory you can make more, but if you take a spell made in in Faerun and try to cast it in like, Mystara, where nobody can stop you, it...just won't work. Because reasons.
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>>62817134
FR Fandom Wiki covers things from an in-universe POV.

That means it ignores retcons, like implying 4e primordials were true all along.

Another example: 5e includes deities which 5e killed in the Spellplague, but who didn't come back to life in the Second Sundering. They're just retconned to be alive again/never to have died.
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>>62835744
>deities which 4e killed in the Spellplague
fixed
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>>62817498
It's accessibility and depths. It's easy to get into FR and Warcraft (via D&D and the MMORPG) and then there's loads of lore depth to explore.
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>>62834488
>>62834511
>>62834524
Shadow Weave casters can still use 10th and higher level spells.

Plus 10th level psionic powers (and spell-to-power erudite can make spells into powers), casting spells on another plane outside Toril's material plane, and epic spells replicating 10th-level spells.
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>>62817410
>>62817428
What are the canon contradictions within single FR editions?
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>>62817250
>the purple beast
?
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>>62817507
>the FR wiki is incredibly out of touch, it barely finished updating to 3e, never mind 4e
It lists most monsters by 4e types, even if their stats weren't given in 4e, so it's not even got the excuse of "official = canon" for that, since it's not official or canon.
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>>62817578
Hlondeth
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>>62838244
Nickname for the RPG.net forums.
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>>62831517
>Vaasa: Falling under the sway of a malevolent, meteor-worshipping cult of arcane warriors called the Warlock Knights.
Sounds pretty neat. Is the meteor some old god or something? Or just a good source of +5 magic swords?
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>>62843825
It's a living mass of magical iron named Telos, a space-traveling Primordial (Archomental) currently in a coma after the Spellplague knocked him off course and made him crash into the planet. The Warlock Knights can commune with his slumbering spirit to draw magical power from him (Star Pact Warlocks), but they also harvest the iron of his body (it regenerates) to make powerful magical items and unique iron golems.
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>>62844953
Did Vaasa have anything going on for it prior to 4e?
I know in the YE OLDE DAYS it had the bloodstone adventures, but even the books that followed up on them focused more on damara than Vaasa.
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>>62845181
Beats me. Only Vaasa region I know anything about is Nova Vaasa from Ravenloft 3e, which is a vaguely Slavic/Russian shithole of elitist douchebag nobles and oppressed peasants living in such crime-riddled, filthy, muddy squalor that the peasants in *Barovia* look down on them, especially as the Nova Vaasans think they're the kings of the world and chosen by their god, the Lawgiver (literally Bane with the serial numbers filed off) as the pinnacle of civilization.
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Why was FR the space for all these novels? Did it have something Greyhawk or Mystera didn't?
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>>62832902
>Greenwood can't give a rat's ass about what WotC has done with his setting
sad
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>>62845181

Just over a page in the 3E FRCS book, that's the short version. It was a remote, inhospitable region rich in minerals that used to be the home of a powerful lich before some adventurers took care of him. There are still plenty of monsters and baddies, and the lich's ruined castle supposedly has something in it that makes it dangerous for even dragons who try to lair there. There is also a great glacier, where there's an epic level priestess of Auril that is off to some weird shit and kidnaps "young, vigorious" mages for it. Away from her, there are some small towns, struggling farms and mines, but there's plenty of ground to go around.

The 3E book makes it sounds a bit like inland Scandinavia, except with more minerals and monsters.
>>
>>62846570
>Mystara
Mystara was considered TOO gonzo by a lot of people.
>Greyhawk
Greyhawk was also gonzo, and TSR didn't want to use it for petty reasons.

>FR
FR was seen as dragonlance without the baggage. Which ironically it got all the baggage and more, as well as gonzo elements due to TSR deciding that shoving everything into the setting that people liked because it didn't have everything shoveled into it made sense.
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>>62847286
So nothing new from AD&D then.
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>>62816931
WE WUZ

It actually saddened me to learn how this whole development just got thrown out.
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>>62847426
I just find him weird.
On one hand 3e added him to show orcs can be civilized too!
But at the same time the only reason they needed to show that is because everyone forgot that civilized orcs have been a thing in Faerun since forever, it's just TSR hated the fact that Greenwood thought intelligent humanoid races should be able to be reasonable people.
>>
>>62847511
I've noticed that thinking still exists on places like Draginsfoot, where grogs vehemently deny anything beyond what's in the MM or PH.
>>
>>62836110
Guy tells us there are vacuum cleaners on youtube and you're still going on about FR?

Don't you want to listen to 8 hours and 1 second (yes, that's night, not just 8 hours, it's 1 whole second longer than 8 hours) of vacuum cleaner noise?

Even if it's only 10 minutes of vaccum cleaner footage looped 48 times I know how I'm lulling myself to sleep tonight and what sound I'm waking up with tomorrow.

There's a vacuum cleaner beside my desk but it just doesn't compare to the sexy upright Euro model playing out my speakers right now. Ooh, it's getting louder, something's about to happen, I just know it. Time to switch tabs. Got to go!
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>>62849749
what
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>>62847973
For example?
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>>62852155
If you bring up the idea that alignments are not absolute for monsters, or that half-elves or half-orcs are fertile, they flip their shit.
It's as bad as when someone mentions anything D&D-related, that was made after 1999.
>>
>>62852216
>anything D&D-related, that was made after 1999.
Ouch
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>>62816931
Man I love the recent surge of popularity of FR.
Anyways
>1e
Very amateurish and short lived, mostly comprised of Ed's notes
>2e
Considered to be the best FR a bit more advanced in technology a bit less good vs evil
>3e
Steamlined version of 2e, more good vs evil, less ambiguity
>4e
Nuking of Fr, many gods destroyed, many nations destroyed, many nations changed. Every FR autist raged about this so hard that
>5e
Literally a reversion back to 3e with few differences. Autist rage stopped but so too publishing. WOTC stopped publishing campagin material, maybe because they got burned from 4e lore reaction, and they are afraid of screwing up 5e. Less is better is their philosophy it seems
>>62817578
Thay, Halruaa always seemed to unnaturally good to me.
>>62817715
>>62816931
Best way that I found is
1-Go through sourcebooks, ignore 4e and move from 5th to 1st edition
2-Check FR wiki page, this will usually have some references that will lead you to:
3-Some obsure article written in 2002 and can be found on archives
4-Or some authors post on Candlekeep

I like this information aspect of FR, everyplace has some lore-information about it even if its few words on candlekeep or one article from 2002. There is something. Some peopel hate this claiming FR limits them but for me I always liked present information and then tinker my way into it.
Candlekeep should be an advance source, not a first place to start though
>>62817588
It became popular due to d&d becoming popular post 2014 in the twitch-roll20-critical role-tv shows portraying d&d era.
Could it be better? Yes, I would love if d&d became popular during the time of Planescape and Darksun but I'm also glad it didn't became popular around 2008-2009 in the 4th ed FR era.

FR is literally saved accidentaly, Wizards reverted back a lot of 4e butchery in order to satisfy the autist but they also got a lot of newbies.

This is one of the few times when a vocal grognard minority managed to push itself into the masses
>>
>>62852606
Honestly, I LIKED 4th edition. I mean, I didn't care about the Realms either way, but the mechanics, and the Nentir Vale/Points of Light base setting? Best D&D so far. 5e sucks by comparison.
>>
Since Toril is ridden with planar portals, is setting hoping easy?
>>
>>62852727
I'd assume so, getting a portal from Kara-Tur on Toril to Kara-Tur on Oerth should be easy.

Assuming you go with the original idea and have Oerth go Kara-Tur > Ocean > Lynn > Baklunish > Flannes
>>
>>62852727
They are not on planescape levels. Material plane hoppig is really really rare.
The only ones I remember are the knights of Solamnia, from Dragonlance, being imprisoned in a mage tower in Baldurs Gate II
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>>62852727
Depends on what your DM says. I mean, there have been canonical portals to other material plane worlds - the Gray Orcs came from one such world, and the Mulhorandi were literally Ancient Egyptians hoovered off of our Earth en-masse to serve as slave laborers - but the bulk of portals are either linking locations on Toril or connecting you to the planes.
>>
>>62817683
Hilssfar, it's like Westagte, but not a total fucking shithole! you aren't as likely to get stabbed by the gnoll merchant as sold his wares.
>>
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What are your favorite gods?
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>>62817578
My favorite place to live would be Silverymoon
But if FR was real, I would been a candlekeep autist who would never set foot outside.
>>
>>62853031
Hoar always peaked my mind.
Lathander is my favorite. Was always an apollonian irl
>>
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>>62853031
Azuth
Red Knight
Velsharoon
Ilneval
>>
>>62853031
>For god actually living up to their word as protector and educator of their people
Eilistraee

>For god that is basically just supreme shitkicker who doesn't take shit from anyone, least of all Mary Sue Queen of Magic Thots
Motherfucking Helm.
>>
>>62855044
Patrician taste
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>>62855090
Helm would probably execute you for nigspeak.
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>>62855131
>implying that helm ain't a real ride or die nigga
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Drow genocide best day of my life.
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>>62855174
>Sheva "Live in a cave, no need to dig a grave" Rash
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>>62834524
Mystra altered the way 10th level magic works in Toril, is why. Can't bring one from outside and cast it inside, can't take one from inside and cast it outside. And whenever somebody casts a 10th level or higher spell, she is instantly aware and can reverse it before the effect happens if need be.

It all got explained and discussed in the 2e Secrets of the Magister supplement.

Elminster knows a single 10th level spell. The Srinshee knows one or two others. Larloch knows a bunch.
>>
>>62852727
It has doors to the World Serpent Inn, so yes, if you know where to look. Most known portals are Toril to Toril, not Toril to Krynn or whatever.
>>
>>62852775
>Kara-Tur on Oerth
wait what
>>
>>62856568
People keep saying that Kara-tur, the sample "mini-setting" in the AD&D 1st edition Oriental Adventures, was intended to be placed in Greyhawk, but 2nd edition books on Kara-tur moved it to the Forgotten Realms instead.
>>
>>62856618
Design intent != canon! The Oerth map doesn't feature Kara-Tur.
>>
>>62855396
>can't take one from inside and cast it outside.
that doesn't make sense

>Elminster knows a single 10th level spell. The Srinshee knows one or two others. Larloch knows a bunch.
which ones?
>>
>>62849749

Dude what?
>>
>>62857727
I can't speak for the others, but iirc it was finally revealed that Larloch's deal is that he was one of Mystryl's Chosen from before Karsus fucked it all up, so by this point he probably has all of the ancient Netherese magic in his skull.
>>
>>62857727
Elminster knows the 10th level version of Srinshee’s Spellshift. The Srinshee obviously knows that one, plus a volcano-creation one and I forget the others. Larloch has a bunch of Netherese ones.
>>
>>62858673
There are several more surviving Netherese wizards too, like Aumvor and the one who became an illithid elder brain.
>>
>>62857727
>that doesn't make sense
You can't cast 10th level spells from Toril outside Toril, and you can't bring 10th level spells from outside Toril into Toril.
It's a gate, not a door.
>>
>>62858728
But if a mage knows a 10th level spell, and goes where it can be cast (other planes, other material plane worlds), how does Mystra stop them casting it? Is it wiped from his mind as he leaves Toril?
>>
>>62859368
Nystra is the source of magic in Toril, and governs it's rules.
I wager that extends to outside magic as well within her domain.
>>
>>62860953
The Weave is explicitly Toril-only
>>
>>62855444
Which planes does the World Serpent Inn *not* link to?
>>
>>62859368
Mystra has retroactively altered all 10th level+ spells to just not function. To use a mediocre analogy, she rewrote the code of the spell itself to not work at all as well as banning the spell from the network to begin with. No one gets to have that magic because she's kind of a bitch like that. Doesn't matter if you go to a different network, spell's still broken. To fix it, you'd have to just create it again on the new network, which is doable but at that point why bother bringing it from Faerun at all?
>>
>>62859368
She stops them from casting it because the systems by which the spell has to be known and developed and cast on Toril is completely different to other worlds. It's like using two different programming languages, while your eventual output (i.e. the spell effect) would be the same, the process of getting there is fundamentally different.

>>62858728
You can bring them in, they just won't work while they're inside.

>>62861804
It's the "crystal sphere" of Toril, Cynosure the demiplane (and any other demiplanes explicitly associated with running Toril, though not the divine realms of non-affiliated gods), and the divine realms of Mystra, Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon.
>>
>>62862493
I don't think there are any. It even goes to and from Ravenloft and Athas, without any need to worry about the in-between of getting to and from those places.
>>
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>>62859368
>>62860953
>>62861804
>>62862604
>>62862735
Secrets of the Magister cut and paste about 10th level spells, the thing mentioned in >>62855396 .
>>
>>62862604
>>62862735
The analogy makes sense but I don't like it personally. I guess I feel it makes gods too all-powerful, to just re-write all spells like that.
>>
>>62864899
Mystra is the primary goddess of all magic on Toril. If anybody can do it, it's her.
>>
>>62864978
It's such a tacky, weird way to do it though, not simply banning the spells
>>
>>62864899
They're only all powerful within their domain of influence.
>>
>>62816931
When was The War of the Spider Queen? Is that cannon?
>>
>>62866811
Her portfolio is magic and the Weave, and her entire reason for "existence" is to promote magic and ensure it proliferates. She can't just ban spells outright, because that goes against her existence as "goddess of magic in charge of spreading more magic", just like Oghma couldn't erase the knowledge in the Cyrinishad - truth or lie, it was knowledge, and so he could only walk a razor's edge by claiming it was "misinformation" and denying knowledge of it to other gods (but not other mortals). A god acting directly against their portfolio or existence is going to get smacked down by the other gods at best, or destroyed by Ao at worst.

So instead, she just made them retardedly difficult to access. That she is allowed to do. She couldn't even erase the existence of Karsus' Avatar, she just sent it on a one-way trip to the ends of existence and put rules in place that prevented it from being able to target her like it did Mystryl.
>>
>>62867237
>So instead, she just made them retardedly difficult to access. That she is allowed to do.
Then wouldn't it be simpler to just make them 99th level instead, since nobody has spell slots that high, instead of secretly find+replacing every copy of the spell knowledge?
>>
>>62867163
It starts in 1372 DR.
>>
>>62862493
>>62862902
I'm surprised Paizo didn't include references to it in Golarion like they did with Iggwilv from Greyhawk.
>>
>>62867382
Because they aren't 99th level spells, they're 10th level spells. That's what they were created and developed and finalised as, she can't go back and magically, so to speak, make them a higher level, because they aren't 11th level spells. It's already vague and nebulous, but again, she didn't make them impossible to use, just very difficult to use, but if you CAN find them, figure them out, and meet the qualifications to cast them, she lets you. She can't not.
>>
>>62867163
Late 3e, well before the Spellplague.
>>
>>62867953
She can't adjust the kind of spell they are (despite literally being the goddess of spells), but she can change the "code" for them, just to make them need re-learning before anybody casts them?

I don't think it makes sense but I guess at least they are castable. Though I still don't know how she keeps someone from bringing into Toril a 10th level spell they know, if they aren't actually banned, unless she re-writes the spell in the mind of every epic caster who enters Toril, and undoes the re-write before they leave so they can cast it again back on Oerth or wherever.
>>
>>62869264
Azuth is the god of spells. That's literally one of his titles, Lord of Spells. Mystra is the goddess of magic/the Weave.

Bringing in a spell from outside won't work because the spell wasn't made for Toril rules. They're not banned outright, they just won't, as >>62862916
says, "take hold of the Weave" so they can't get any power to work in the first place. More like a "soft" ban than a "hard" ban, if you like.
>>
>>62869389
>Azuth is the god of spells. That's literally one of his titles, Lord of Spells. Mystra is the goddess of magic/the Weave.
I ought to have remembered that. But why are those different things?

>Bringing in a spell from outside won't work because the spell wasn't made for Toril rules.
But spells level 0-9 do?
>>
>>62870163
Because spells is the practical application of the weave. The weave is just.. well.. a weave. Think of it like this: Mystra is a weaver/spinster, while Azuth is a tailor.
>>
I unironically support the Eldreth Veluuthra.
>>
>>62870942
For what purpose?
>>
>>62870942
Elves are a people of peace.
>>
>>62871331
How come elves are always tolerated in human lands, but humans are never welcome in elven lands?
>>
>>62871446
Elves aren't always tolerated in human lands.

Hillsfar and Luthcheq are the first two places that come to mind.
>>
>>62871446
>elves are always tolerated in human lands
lol
>humans are never welcome in elven lands
To the detriment of the lands, humans aren't never welcome.
>>
>>62871635
Good for Hillsfar and Luthcheq.
>>
>>62857180
>>62857180
The OA1 module does however feature a map of how to get there, which involves sailing west from a coast that matches up with Froideval's Lynn, which was going to be on Oerth.
>>
>>62874083
>Froideval's Lynn
Where did it end up being?
>>
>>62853031
Umberlee. She's got that vicious sea goddess unpredictability down, but unlike most other Evil gods she's got a fairly restrained dogma. No mandatory murders or other crimes, no human sacrifice, just pay your tithe and fear the sea. She's the kind of deity that even a Good character might pray to when needs must.

Also I'm a sucker for most things ocean-related.
>>
>>62874498
>The Goddess who is literally referred to as the Bitch Queen by her own clergy
She's fun. Also her priestesses wear "robes" that are basically semi-transparent tights.
>>
>>62874878
>Also her priestesses wear "robes" that are basically semi-transparent tights.
tell me more
I was just gonna tell anon I personally prefer Auril to Umberlee, but the sea may claim me yet
>>
>>62874911
>Priestly Vestments: The ceremonial garb of the priests of Umberlee consists of a skin-tight blue or green body stocking worn with a voluminous cape of blue or green trimmed with white fur (to represent foaming breakers). A tall collar, similarly trimmed, rises from the back of the cape's neck.
>>
>>62817578
Unironically Waterdeep.
It just tickles most of my favourite things in one city.
>>
>>62874911
>>62874988
That said, Auril's Chillbringers (priest kit), go around wearing thin white robes and bracelets made of ice. The ice bracelets are actually magical and keep them feeling warm (ring of warmth), while also providing the same protection as body armor regardless of anything else worn.
So in theory they could be butt naked in the middle of a blizzard and be fine with it.
>>
>>62874911
Auril bothers me, just 'cause she expects her followers to be cold ALL the time, they don't even get to wear warm clothes. Which, speaking as someone who lives less than an hour away from the Polar Circle, just isn't viable for humans.
>>
>>62874988
it doesn't say what it's made of or how transparent it is... I was hoping for an enchanted layer of "solid" water...
>>
>>62875225
>what it's made of or how transparent it is
Sadly the only additional info we get on it is that Umberlee's priestesses wear "just enough" to comply with local laws on modesty, and that they get wet all the time (due to rituals involving sea water).
>>
>>62875145
fixed by magic >>62875138
though personally I'd have it be the thin robes that keep them warm and provide protection, to avoid the 100% nekkid in a blizzard situation
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>>62875225
If you want fetish potential, Umberlee's specialty clerics are pretty good. Waveservants have, among other things:
- Paralytic venom that can be delivered via hands and lips.
- The ability to turn their arms into octopus tentacles.
- At 10th level their bones and interal organs turn to a jellyfish-like mass. While the mechanical benefit of this is crit immunity, you can imagine what it does for their flexibility.
>>
>>62875372
>Umberlee's priestesses wear "just enough" to comply with local laws on modesty,
swimsuits it is!

>and that they get wet all the time
goodness!
>(due to rituals involving sea water).
oh I see
>>
>>62875518
>first two good for dom
>third good for sub
why can't they allow builds to be optimal for one of the other! who wants both!
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>>62875372
Really the surprising thing is that a medieval society *has* laws on modesty.
>>
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>>62877317
It probably doesn't. The few times we see Greenwood talking about law where he goes in depth it never comes up.
The modesty line was by a different writer.
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>>62877433
Damn different writers, destroying our lewd Realms!

Then again, forced modesty is kinda hot. Nudity only goes so far.
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>>62875611
>>Umberlee's priestesses wear "just enough" to comply with local laws on modesty,
>swimsuits it is!
Makes sense for a sea goddess
>>
>>62853031
Helm
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>>62880722
And why?
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>>62874419
The agreement between him and Gygax fell through. But if you look at the map in his Black Moon Chronicles, the eastern portion of the continental map is the Flannes.
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>>62883020
Interesting trivia, thank you. Is it public knowledge why it fell through?

I love learning the real-world background to setting details.
>>
>>62883384
General creative differences apparently, TSR was not the happiest of ships.
>>
>>62883425
Still, I'm broadly happy with the lore D&D turned out with, between its various settings.
>>
>>62883425
Gygax's drug addiction probably didn't help.
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>>62884134
Some of it still survived in the Chainmail skirmish game for 3rd edition. Though only dancing around the copyrighted names.
>>
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This has the only map of Haalru Greenwood made, and it's so bad i can't read it.
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>>62884180
Interesting that Evermeet is not protected by illusions in Greenwood's version, but simply by a giant navy, constantly fighting pirates.
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>>62875506
That's all well and good for the clerics, but it doesn't help the lay worshippers much. I just don't see why a regular peasant would pray to Auril. You appeal to Umberlee in the hopes that she WON'T drown you, but the Frostmaiden is gonna turn your dick to an icicle whether she likes you or not.
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>>62884571
Praying for a less harsh winter?
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>>62875372
>local laws on modesty
My campaign takes place in Chessenta. Her clerics will wear the cape and bodypaint.
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>>62887314
Fuck yeah brother.
>>
>>62884571
They wouldn't pray, exactly, but evil gods might be given offerings in the hopes of being appeased. You'd make offerings to the god of plagues to either smite an enemy, or to pass you by. If you're doubly careful you'd also make offerings and prayers to gods of healing and protection, just to get as much redundancy as possible. Same with, for instance, Umberlee for sailors.
>>
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>It's a rare Faerunian who hasn't occasionally hoped to avert the baleful influence of an evil deity with a propitious gift
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>>62853031
got to go OG cold gods Kossuth, grumbar akadi an ishtisha
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>>62888294
Those are Primordials.
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>>62888294
Not when I started playing
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>>62888391
This is what OP's asking about, what were the retcons?
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>>62817578
Vaasa.


I've always been fond of these kind of "walled in", nothern places. Angmar, Utumno, Angband, Denagoth and so on.
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>>62888647
Did they ever establish what magic was causing the Great Glacier to expand?
>>
>>62888550
Nevermind. I thought the Elemental Lords were always referred to as primordials, but then I took a look through Faiths & Avatars.

The change didn't come until 4E.
>>
>>62853031
Fenmarel Mestarine is my boy.
I got my own personal shrine to him in the NWN server I play.
>>
>>62888714
In the book that established it as Pelvuria and suddenly put inuits there, they said it was a sleeping god who sank to the bottom of the ocean while wearing a cursed necklace, freezing the ocean around him and ever expanding as long as he sleeps.
>>
>>62888824
i distinctly remember that tidbit about the god being in the 3e campaign setting book. i dont remember anything about inuits and pelvuria though.
>tfw its been fifteen years and you cant remember exactly
>>
>>62888873
>>
>>62888824
>>62888647

I always assumed it was more-or-less yet another hiding place for some Blackmoor shenanigans and that the ruins of the city of the Egg of Coot is down there, somewhere, around a nuclear reactor..
>>
>>62888824
As opposed to Greenwood's idea which was Ice-drowned cities and giant kingdoms.

Like how Anauroch went from being an impassable cold desert full of ruins to being half hot half cold desert populated by Bedouin knockoffs because someone else wrote a book about it afterwards.
>>
>>62889062
I got rid of all the desert shit and simply made it a xbawkshueg pine/birch forest, Siberia style.

I see enough Bedouin-knockoffs when I look out my goddamn window.
>>
>>62888647

You may be surprised to remember that Vaasa and Damara didn't exist in Greenwood's original setting. When the Grey Box was being written, it was suggested that the H series of modules for AD&D/Battlesystem should have a place and the Glacier was rolled back to accommodate.
>>
>>62889805
I never played the old Battle System.
Was it any good?

I'm guessing Vaasa was supposed to be in Greyhawk originally?
>>
>>62890402
A shopkeeper does say Oerth, but it doesn't fit with the map so it was just a generic module, like how grog websites can twist themselves into knots over the locations of B2 or Desert of Desolation.
>>
>>62890428
B2 was good fun to play.
Silly on any even remotely closer inspection, but a rip-roaring, two-fisted adventure.
>>
>>62853031
Cyric.
The need to stir up shit and ruin nice things for everyone else for shits and giggles appeals to me.
And lets face there arent any other gods around who find so much glee in being dicks. The Black Sun doesnt hide it.
>>
>>62890792
It's not just for shits and giggles. It's his job.
>>
>>62890402
>I never played the old Battle System.
>Was it any good?
I did. It was ponderous.
>>
>>62891643
Ah, gotcha.

I liked the Warmachine-system from the old BECMI-rules, though.
Not useful for skirmishes but for all-out wars, it was quite handly.
>>
>>62888739
Fenmarel seems pretty based for an autist.
>>
>>62891799
Book of War by Delta D&D is my go to for miniatures, but the quick start version of ACKS Domains at War is good for abstract battles.
>>
>>62893377
Dubbydubs for truth.

I'd prefer a book-version but for lack of better, .pdf will have to do.
>>
>>62889062
>Anauroch went from being an impassable cold desert full of ruins to being half hot half cold desert populated by Bedouin knockoffs
The Bedouin knockoffs I actually find kind of offensive, not because of a racial thing, but because the desert is supposed to be on top of the ruins of the most technologically and magically advanced empire to exist, and there's these fucks hanging out there with absolutely no relation to any of it, as if they were written by someone who forgot what was supposed to be there.
>>
This thread suddenly explains why the Volo's Guides are so good. They were actually written about the places and topics that TSR didn't change as a part of a weird company mandate.
>>
>>62890428
>like how grog websites can twist themselves into knots over the locations of B2 or Desert of Desolation.
explain
>>
>>62888716
What are the other forgettable lore changes, between any editions?
>>
>>62889062
>>62893569
Eh, happens to any setting with lots of writers.
>>
>>62897430
I stands out more because Hreenwood still comments on how it differs from his own. And much of the extra writing is poorer than the original concepts.
>>
>>62893569
>The Bedouin’s offend me because they are unrelatedly occupying the ruins of Carthage.

I mean it’s not that crazy...
>>
>>62901729
They were both iron-age, the Carthaginians just had greater civic and social development. Anauroch became more like a bad post-apocalyptic novel.
>>
So where did Anchorome come from?
>>
>>62903906
I don’t know, I think the Grey Box suggests that a dragon magazine article about a thinly veiled North America be used for the lands across the ocean, but that falls into the same category of Kara-Tur. Suggestions made by TSR to include multiple works.
>>
>>62903906
Greenwood said he originally planned for an island chain to be out in that area, and called it Anchorome, then a dragon mag talked about it being a good spot for a fantasy north america, and it got morphed into an entire continent.
>>
>>62903906
>>62904019
quote:

3.2. What and where is Anchorome?
In Ed Greenwood's original conception, Anchorome was a joke archipelago; each island was a dungeon, and at the bottom of the dungeon were just enough supplies and a map to the next one. With the release of the Maztica mini-setting, Anchorome became the northern end of the new continent. It has not been detailed in any fashion apart from a couple of brief mentions here and there.
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>>62903906
>>62904195
What about the other two continents, Katashaka and Osse, if those are even official names? And the other large islands on the Abeir-Toril world map?
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>>62905661
Wikpedia: This continent has long remained Terra Incognita and has been introduced only recently through the writings of James Lowder, published in 2006 by Wizards of the Coast in the form of the book "A Grand History of the Realms."

It’s effectively a duplication of Chult with the same races.
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>>62905661
Osse is Australia and was introduced in Lady of Poison by Bruce R. Cordell (July 2004).
>>
>>62906117
>>62906135
So these are even more flimsy additions than I thought.
>>
Considering how little lore is in the current releases, I wonder if the history of the realms is going to stop here, with only the occasional Greenwood or Salvator novel to check up on the npcs.
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>>62906191
That's the rumor.
They said during the 5e marketing that they wanted to support play in any FR time period, then last minute decided "nah, fuck it, we'll just stop printing lore books." Word has it Mearls thinks lorebooks are the worst part of D&D and only wants to print the bare minimum.
>>
>>62906315
How much damage has Mearls done to D&D since 2005?
>>
>>62888906
noice
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>>62906330
Incalcuable. He sabotaged 4e, which was finally making headway out of the shroud of its initial bad press, and then he turned 5e into a shambling mockery of its former potential.
>>
>>62906191
>>62906315
>Word has it Mearls thinks lorebooks are the worst part of D&D and only wants to print the bare minimum.
Surely books with a mix of both is optimal from a business perspective? Too much crunch and you run out of meaningful additions (3.5 splatbooks), make everything identical (4e Essentials) and need to come up with increasingly lame and forgettable new monsters to justify printing new stat blocks (MM4 and MM5 in 3.5). So crunch needs to be spaced out. Too much lore though and there's no incentive for gamer-minded players to buy fluffbooks. So books need enough crunch to get people's dollars and enough fluff to fill out the book.
>>
>>62888906
>Icelake Lake
...Seriously?
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>>62907229
TSR was known for their silly names, especially in the Realms.
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>>62907288
More examples?

Personally I'd rename them for my own games.
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>>62817062
Faerun needs to Build The Wall.
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>>62906762
This wouldn't even be an issue if they started making good novels again like in the 90's
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>>62907923
Fat fucking chance.

That said...it isn't *completely* hopeless. Word is that Hasbro, WotC's parent company, has been wanting to expand into Movies with their most notable properties. We're getting a Rom movie and a soft reboot of TF, and a hard one of GI Joe and they bought the movie rights to Power Rangers.

So, they *might* give a DnD movie another shot.....and if they do...well...the books would be a place to start. This is basically some conspiracy shit, but if they did that to like, Dragonlance or one of the other HUGE multiple book stories, they'd likely do a fresh run of the books...and that might inspire them to start putting out new books as well.

It's stupidly unlikely, but IMHO probably the best shot we've got, going over Crawford and Co.s heads.
>>
>>62817062
What does the rest of Abeir look like, besides Returned Abeir?
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>>62908090
Nobody cares because nobody really liked Abeir.

Trust me, the *bitching* when Abeir became a thing was apocalyptic.
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>>62908099
I still hate it and would have it retconned if I could, but either way I wanna know
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>>62907974
A sequel to the Book of Vile Darkness movie maybe?
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>>62908554
Hasbro will want something that is mainstream, so not a sequel to a cult movie, which is watched for its awfulness.
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>>62908778
I expect they'd write a new storyline for a D&D movie, but it may lead to new novels and lore books anyway.
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>>62907974
I really want them to make a Drizzt movie just for the outrage. They can't use black people as drow because that would be racist but they also can't use non-black people because that would be racist as well.
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>>62908090
We literally don't know. All we got was a single continent with its own writeup in the back of the 4e FR Campaign Guide. The bitchfest over the Spellplague killed any plans to expand on Abeir.
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>>62909046
They'd just make drow grey or purple. It's canon too.
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What/where are the comfiest places in the Realms?
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>>62909097
Don't forget it's THE CURRENT YEAR anon, painting people dark colors will definitely be considered racist by some and will cause internet outrage.
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>>62909265
The Dales when they’re not being threatened from all sides.
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>>62888906
Alright, Yetis riding Ice Dragons was and is a pretty metal idea, if not a bit retarded considering that Dragons are pretty smart and Yetis are full on bestial. I feel like we’re ignoring the Dragons pride a bit here but whatever.
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>>62909358
So never?
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>>62845295
t I understand, its a Ravenloftian emulation of Toril's Vaasa, hence the 'Nova Vaasa' or 'New Vaasa' name. Hiregard supposedly originates in the Realms, as I recall.
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>>62909265
Nowhere in the North and a decent chunk of the Heartlands, that's for sure, except for possibly Silverymoon.
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>>62853031
Mystra, Azuth, Elistraee, Leira
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>>62910043
In AD&D a full grown white dragon only had intelligence between 5 and 7, while yetis had human intelligence.
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>>62870737
Or given that Ed's compared the Weave to a lifeweb or ecosystem; Mystra is the ecology, Azuth is Darwin and trains ecologist and Life Sci majors. He exists to guide spellcasters,, to teach them and discipline them. Mystra is more their muse and inspiration.
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>>62910092
Icewind Dale is maximum comfy though.
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>>62910505
>cold and miserable
>rampaging barbarians
>rampaging orcs
>rampaging goblins
>rampaging giants
There's a reason it's one of the places for adventuring, anon.
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>>62910826
>Always perfect weather for hot cocoa imported from Waterdeep
>A few clans of battle bros, who have snowball fights or whatever they do
>Orcs that spend most of their time raiding the south because they can't beat the local brobarians in snowball fights
>Giants are a myth, or do you really think that mountain is actually the grave of the god of frost giants and full of monsters?
Ten towns are comfy.

Though on a more serious note, I always found it kind of funny that one of the towns was sacked by barbarians, who then got stuck there so they rebuilt the town so that they could shelter with the survivors, and as a result one of the Ten Towns now just happens to have a higher than normal population of people who grow over 6 feet tall.
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>>62910966
Are they the same as the Viking people or different kind of snow barbarian?
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>>62913132
All the northern barbarians are related.
>>
After playing Fallout New Vegas. I’m thinking of a city-state stuck between the Lords Alliance and the Zentium. Anywhere in FR with a similar situation, desert is optional.
>>
>>62913419
The Lord's Alliance and the Zhentarim are focused in very different parts of the FR. You're better off just making up your own city-state and if anyone asks too many questions say there are forward bases/agents/whatever nearby from those respective groups.
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>>62910245
Interesting. I only made the comment because in the Drizzt novels Yetis were shown as more bestial. Though on second thought, White Dragons are reputably the dumbest of the lot.
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>>62916204
Salvatore did alter quite a bit for his books. Some of which was later made into canon in later sources.
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>>62896462
Everything in 4e and 5e.
Im not even joking. Not a single change they did to the Realms was better than what was there before.

Every single decision was bad.
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>>62903906
>>62903939
>>62904019
>>62904195
>>62905661
Am I the only who really liked the ideas the had for Maztica? And how Amn basically became Fantasy-Spain and were the only ones exploring Sea-Routes to Maztica and Kara-Tur and basically building settlements and Kontors along the way.
For me it just fits thematically that since they already have Fantasy Europe and had bits of pieces of other cultures scattered about it never felt that farfetched to me.

Also Helmite Missionaries. Its like pottery.

Apart from that I found the idea of Mulhorand and Whatsitsname basically being people kidnapped from Earth by planewalking Ancient Imaskari Slavetraders to be exactly the right amount of campy.
>>
What are your favorite FR supplements?

Mine are Cloak and Dagger, the Lands of Intrigue box set, the Faiths and Avatars three series of supplements that also include Powers and Pantheon and Deities and Demihumans, the Old Empires.
>>
>>62918583
>And how Amn basically became Fantasy-Spain and were the only ones exploring Sea-Routes to Maztica and Kara-Tur
I like it. Although irl Spain didn't explore links to China and Japan, did it? I do like interactions between cultures in my fantasy, including colonialism.

>Mulhorand and Whatsitsname basically being people kidnapped from Earth by planewalking Ancient Imaskari Slavetraders to be exactly the right amount of campy.
It's a change from "and this country just happens to be identical to irl Egypt" and justifies using the actual Egyptian gods.
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>>62909265
>>62910092
Daggerford.
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>>62918748
>irl Spain didn't explore links to China and Japan
Portugal did, and they're basically Diet Spain
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>>62913419
>>62914628
Make it the Lords Alliance and the Iron Throne then. Done. Also Daggerford.
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>>62918379
I agree but what's the full list of changes, large and small?

I mean actual lore changes/retcons, not just new stuff with the advancing timeline which was also bad ofc
>>
>>62918703
Any of the Volo Books. They were just maximum comfy and I loved the way they were written.
>>
>>62918583
With how FR had become fantasy europe, yeah, why not. Though originally it wasn't meant to be that way.

>Mulhorand and Unther
I think that was the best way to make good out of a bad thing.
>>
>>62853031
Sseth

>>62918703
Serpent Kingdoms
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>>62919011
Too much fluff, not enough monsters.
>>
>>62921350
You take that back, heathen.
>>
Can anyone fill me on what happens to Drizzt more?
>>
>>62924384
>All of his friends die
>They are then all reincarnated in the most stupid hand-wavey way possible.
>>
>>62924384
My knowledge is limited, but basically, by the time of the 4e Realms, all of Drizzt's adventuring buddies were dead of old age. Towards the end of 4e, as part of the build up to the Sundering, all of them were reincarnated with all of their old memories intact:

Catti-brie was reincarnated as *Ruqiah*, a Bedine (not!Arab desert tribal humans) with an affinity for both arcane and divine magic. She was paler-skinned than her parents, and retained her former incarnation's hair and eye colors. She also had two spellscars, one on each arm, in the shape of the holy symbols of Mystra and Mielikki.

Bruenor Battlehammer is reincarnated as the dwarf Reginald Roundshield in Citadel Feldbarr, and basically is just a younger version of his former self.

Regis is reincarnated as a halfling-blooded water genasi who is named Spider Parrafin. He trains as an alchemist so he can be a more direct assistant to the party.

Wulfgar is reincarnated as Hrolf, a human barbarian in the Tribe of the Elk, the same tribe he was born to in his first incarnation. So basically he is literally Wulfgar 2.0, same as with Bruenor.

Their feats post-reunion include toppling the Kingdom of Many-Arrows after the Gruumsh traditionalists finally take over and turn the orcs to warring with their neighbors, reclaiming Gauntlgrym, defeating multiple demon princes released into the Underdark from Menzoberranzan (a novel based on the Out of the Abyss adventure), and rebuilding Luskan's Host Tower of the Arcane. Oh, and the reincarnation of Catti-brie becomes pregnant by Drizzt, and Drizzt's father is resurrected and set loose on the world.
>>
>>62921350
>Too much fluff
>>
>>62924645
Holy shit I only finished like 4 books. But at least its pointed out as to how elves deal when all of their friends die of old age.
>>
>>62924620
>in the most stupid hand-wavey way possible.
A personal favour from a goddess, in a setting with deities?
>>
>>62924645
>Bedine (not!Arab
iirc the Bedine are literal Arabs, Untheric/Mulan-style.

>Oh, and the reincarnation of Catti-brie becomes pregnant by Drizzt
How does that go?
>>
>>62925132
Don't know. The Faerun Wiki I found that info on say's that's what happens in the end of the novel "Hero", and it doesn't say that there have been any other Drizzt novels since then.
>>
>>62925132
If the Bedine are literal Arabs, where did the Camlisharn and Zakharan people come from?
>>
>>62926151
>Calimshites
They were a part of the original FR as far as I understand, which is why Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan were listed together in their mercantile societies. Amn being what happens when you let the merchants rule, Tethyr originally being more wild with merchant princes and city-states until it got turned into fantasy France, and Calimshan more showing how to have capitalism in an authoritarian government.

>Zakharans
TSR mandate.
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Illuskan > every other human ethnicity
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>>62926773
Which group matches to which real-life group again?

I know they shouldn't but in 2e+ they do.
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>>62926851
Calishite is middle-eastern, Damaran is Russian, Chond, Illuskan, Tethyr are European, don't know for Mulan and Rashemi.
>>
>>62927469
>>62926851
Rashemi are Eastern European Gypsies, even if their history doesn’t quite match.

Mulan were also middle-eastern but more Egyptian/Levantine and less Arab
>>
Does anyone know if the Phaerimm were a Greenwood invention or someone else’s?
>>
>>62928293
Probably Greenwood, the Anauroch stuff introduced in the novels centred around the Bedine.
>>
Which Reslm novels are good? I don’t want to go through 40 years worth of crap to find the diamonds that lie in there.
>>
>>62929337
The first few Drizzt ones are
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>>62924645
Jesus Christ, I’m happy I was able to finish Wulfgars character assasination in his drunken solo adventure of a story. When do they die? I stopped after book 12 (Wulfgars solo). Anything interesting happen with the crystal shard after Jarlaxe took it?
>>
>>62930953
>>62933692
At least post something if you're trying to keep the thread going.
>>
>>62924645
>toppling the Kingdom of Many-Arrows after the Gruumsh traditionalists finally take over and turn the orcs to warring with their neighbors
So this is what happened to Many-Arrows?
Kinda shitty.
>>
>>62933811
Yep, because Many-Arrows being a civil, stabilizing influence on the Orc race and offering a successful way out of their old lifestyle as savagely evil vermin was a 4e invention, and so it had to be gotten rid of so the 5e Realms would be more like the 3e Realms...
>>
>>62933871
Wasnt the half orc who established Many Arrows presented in 3.5?
>your fate when the fundies take over
>>
>>62933945
No, King Obould Many-Arrows, the pure-blooded orc (possibly a mountain orc/underdark orc hybrid, since his intelligence meshes up with the orogs) who founded the Kingdom of Many-Arrows was introduced in the 3.0 Realms Campaign Setting, but the 5e Realms is still 300 years after his war of conquest, so he's dead and not even a revered hero-god anymore.
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>>62934052
I find Many-Arrows weird, because he was in 3e, then 4e said he's the one thing showing how orcs can be civilized people! Despite the fact that orcs weren't savagely evil vermin in the forgotten realms.
It gets even weirder when you consider the part of the world he established his kingdom, it would suggest he was from the Spine of the World, and those orcs are (in)famous for the fact that the last time they had a leader who assembled them into a cohesive force they went on a massive WAAAGH that sacked a great deal of the sword coast, and is allegedly responsible for the fact orcs can still be found all across western Faerun.

But 3e also pushed a lot harder on the always savage orcs thing, as opposed to AD&D having orc farmers, orc nomads, greek orcs, and general orc laborers just trying to make a living depending on which part of faerun you looked in, with the raw "raid and kill" orcs being relatively rare.
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>>62934117
Some civilized orcs feels more realistic, and I was this as a fan of the 4e Realms.
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>>62934117
Here's the thing; orcs got a HUGE emphasis on "Orcs are Always Evil Primitive Screwheads" in 3e, as you said, with Races of Faerun going out of its way to paint them as generic evil raider types.

Obould was always characterized as unique amongst northern orcs because he had a grander vision. In particular, it's implied he was at least partially Orog, which in 3e is an Underdark variant of orc which understands that the point of conquering shit is to *keep that shit for yourself*, not to just keep fighting and fighting until you fatally overextend yourself, like mountain orc warlords always do. Guess what Obould figured out?

Obould founded Many-Arrows before the Spellplague. By the "present" of 4e, Many-Arrows the kingdom had been around for 100 years, being ruled by the Lineage of Oboulds, who call themselves Obould the Whatever to represent their adherence to the original Obould's vision.

As for where it all came from... probably because everybody knows the Sword Coast an the Spine of the World region, and they don't know about places like Thesk or Thay all that much. So, the "generic savage orcs" are the ones that get all the attention.
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>>62934306
>As for where it all came from... probably because everybody knows the Sword Coast an the Spine of the World region, and they don't know about places like Thesk or Thay all that much. So, the "generic savage orcs" are the ones that get all the attention.

While I know you're right there, I don't know if that makes it better given that I always think back to how the encounter tables for random things you'll see on the streets of Waterdeep included shit like "ogres moving a piano" or "orc delivery guy"
Yet everyone seems to forget that fact just because Baldur's Gate had a strict "only good orc is a dead orc" policy written into their law.
>>
>>62934627
That's what comes of making pure orcs unplayable except in a splatbook in AD&D 2e and having them appear only as generic evil cannon fodder in every single one of the Drizzt novels and the Forgotten Realms computer games.

So long as "non-demihuman humanoids aren't evil" is seen as a "new thing", then retroclones and grognard-baiting games like 5e will keep making them one-dimensional cannon fodder.
>>
>>62934306
>Obould was always characterized as unique amongst northern orcs because he had a grander vision.
That would kind of emphasise why Many-Arrows was doomed to fail. It was established by Obould, who had the strength of will and character, and just plain strength, to actually weld the tribes of orcs and similar into a cohesive force. But as soon as he was gone, and as soon as they didn't just have peace but didn't have enemies of their own to maintain external pressure, they crumbled under their own weight.
>>
>>62934973
Except that Obould's offspring successfully wrangled the orcs of Many-Arrows into peaceful behavior for over 100 years until the Gruumsh traditionalists took hold. They even had whole tribes that were happy with their new path, as they had gone from being the jokes and outcasts of the Old Order to held up as the pinnacle of orcy behavior in Many-Arrows, like the Dust Treaders tribe.

If anything, Obould's biggest mistake was probably not outlawing Gruumsh worship, as it was the shamans who were the biggest shit-stirrers and who ultimately caused the kingdom to "go back to the old ways".
>>
>>62935129
Um, yes? Like I said, once Obould was gone, AND once they had peace AND nothing to maintain any kind of external pressure (which would help maintain the strength of the leaders), they began falling apart. It's just your generic political corruption and empire collapse.

The only reason it doesn't happen elsewhere as well like, say, Cormyr, is because the War Wizards are doing all sorts of secret police state shit and espionage to destroy the shit-stirrers before they can really get started. Dig back through the histories of various nations and you usually find that they don't have markedly long periods of stability.
>>
New Thread!
>>62937394
>>62937394





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