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what went wrong?
>>
>>62933550
You hit post
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>>62933550
You got an hour?

>Martials went back to lame "I just roll to hit stuff" classes.
>Only martials with cool stuff are the partial spellcasters.
>Spells went back to just "Wizard, Cleric, minor variants of the aforementioned".
>Sorcerers were given too few spell points and too few ways of replenishing those spell points to actually live up to their theme.
>Races were downgraded from +2/+2 to one of two to just +2/+1.
>Traded the versatile Star Patron for Warlocks for the more codified Great Old One.
>Dragonborn were made the worst race in the game.
>>
>>62933550
You left the light on when you took the picture so the gloss on the hardcover reflected ruining the photo
>>
>>62933550
everything is far too streamlined and boring
>>
>>62933550

Given the context, not that much.

After failing to make D&D a hundred million year a property with 4e (arguably an impossible task), 5e was given a shoestring budget as a way of keeping the license active so Hasbro could make the actual money licensing out the name for video games and maybe a movie.

5e is a budget product. Small teams, not much in the way of testing, some real issues with product quality and a scant dripfeed of content. And for all that, it's been a massively popular and successful RPG that's been responsible for a lot of growth in our industry.

I, personally, don't like 5e. But you'd have to be an idiot to not realise what a boon it's been for our industry, or how much better off we're going to be in future due to the new players who've been introduced to it via 5e.
>>
same thing that has happened to every other RPG.

a bunch of loud mouth morons say, "I could write a better game system than that!" but don't provide any proof. They just complain about what other people have done, while doing nothing themselves.

or does that go without saying?
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>>62933550


I dislike late game 5e lvl 13+. Nearly every roll has Advantage and disadvantage.

They decreased healing spells in 5e but the abiltiy to rest and super heal with hit dice makes up for it and is ridiculous.

Unless you have a dm who gives magic items and artifacts early game you are going to have the same gear for a lonnnnng time .
>>
>>62933550

Nothing
>>
I dislike the CR listings for the monsters in the MM. Goblins, Kobolds, and Orcs are absolutely devastating for a group of level 1 adventurers.
>>
>>62933550
Death Saves
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>>62936041
Troglodytes are the A#1 killer of low-level parties. They are fucking brutal.
>>
>>62933550

They released a Potemkin village of a game that has morons going up to it and not realising it's a facade made to hold onto the rights rather than something with substance

Oh, and Mearls thinks that the game needs to be simple otherwise women and minorities are scared off, because he's retarded
>>
>>62933550
That the books fucking fall apart on you.
>Anon they fixed this
Fuck you I'm not buying another book for a major fuckup they did.
>>
>>62933550
Current Management at WOTC
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>>62933550
One of my personal pet peeves is with what they did to the dragon sorcerer. In 4e, every character had a secondary stat, and the dragon sorcerer's was strength. It was really neat thematically, especially since they wound up with good defenses except for reflex. 5e went and made them back in to bad wizards, which was really disappointing to me.

>>62934114
>I make a full attack but I also get to move this time
I hate that so much. I just helped a new player build a fighter for 4e and he was really excited about the different maneuvers he could pull off. Making that same dwarf fighter in 5e would lose more than a little of that depth. (The subclasses initially being based on what weapon you were good at using was kinda neat too, although that was diminished somewhat later on.)
>>
>>62933550
>makes a fuck ton of money
>is the most popular RPG but HUGE margins
>literally synonymous with TTRPG
>makes the brand relevant again and profitable

Nothing. Fucking gold mine of a game. Other game designers wish they could make something like this.
>>
>>62933550
Protip : AD+D books still exist
>>
>>62940017

A lot have. It's not about the game design, it's about the brand and the unexpected market surge due to things like Critical Role. 5e's design is extremely unexceptional, but it's strong enough to support it's massive popularity. For what it is, it's fine, but in terms of its actual mechanics it's not innovative or revolutionary in any way, it's very bland, middle of the road safe RPG design.
>>
>>62940071
Safe RPG design is why it makes money and has such a large following. If you take risks you alienate everyone but the few people who like those big changes.

WotC/Hasbro was an inch away from shutting down the D&D division entirely, not only was 5e their best move but it paid off spectacularly.
>>
>>62940114

I agree. For what it is, in the context it was developed in, 5e is a spectacular achievement. But it's not particularly notable in terms of its game design.
>>
My main issue is that within next 2-3 years I'll be totally bored of it. I'll run out of interesting mechanical combinations - something that wasn't an issue with 3.5. It's amusing how my biggest turnoff is from 3.5 is also what I desire the most from 5e. The character customization is lacking. Feats were a mistake, the system should have worked differently.
>>
>>62939289
Isn’t it better for an rpg, especially and entry level one, to be simple? Shouldn’t an rpg give you a basic structure for the GM and players to build on with imagination?
>>
>>62933550
1d4+Str
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>>62940164

By the standards of simple entry level games, 5e isn't that good. If you embrace the rules not rulings thing and basically don't use most of the rules, it's fine, but trying to actually engage with the mechanics still has pitfalls, if significantly less than 3.PF. But there are simpler, more streamlined rules light games that can provide that opening RPG experience in a much tighter package than 5e.

The only really unique use it has is being a beginners version of D&D, although there are still some games that would challenge it for that title.
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>>62939869
Contact customer service, they'll mail you a new one
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>>62933550
Financially? Nothing. It's doing exactly what Hasbro wants, for exactly as much as Hasbro is willing to invest in it.

Creatively? It's a bland corporate milquetoast version of a product they already made (3e,) that's terrified of taking any risks, and as a result winds up as an inoffensive but ultimately unimpressive grey paste. It's the same thing that happens when a fortune 500 has control of any artistic endeavor: they opt for blandness in the name of broad and casual market appeal.
>>
>>62933550
With that book? NOTHING
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>>62934114
>>62940008
>sorcerer is bad wizard
Sorcerer has always been my favorite class for some unfathomable reason, even knowing that they are and will always be a bad wizard. At this point I think I just like the misery. Even bards get more than a couple extra points of damage out of their class features.
>>
>>62941629

4e sorcs were pretty cool and distinct
>>
>>62934114
>Dragonborn were allowed to keep existing
Fixed that for ya
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>>62941645
I know, it's true, cosmic cycles were dope. But the only games of 4e I've ever been able to be involved in were the ones I was running. The second another guy volunteers to take the DM seat, he's asking us to move on to 5e for the game. I'll play it, but I'll never love it.

It's a joy I've realized I can only ever experience vicariously. The happiness I want is always in sight, but forever out of reach.
>>
>>62941719
>Tieflings were allowed to keep existing
Truly the greatest sin of 5e.
>>
Sacred cows were not only not slaughtered, but anything that might even imply not aligning with them were strangled in the cradle.
The easiest evidence is: look at what fighting styles classes have access to. There is only one reason classes with access to fighting styles don't have access to all fighting styles, and it has fuck all to do with game balance.
You will play the character WotC wants you to play, and if you try not to the system will fight against you to stop it.
>>
>>62934114
>>62941719
>>62941755
>Aarakocra
>exists
Who the fuck thought that was a good idea?
>>
Monte Cook left.

Look, he was annoying in 3.5, but if you look at the shit he's done lately, he's making good games, and Meals and Crawfish aren't.
>>
>>62941867
People have suggested he was legitimately possessed by the Curse of Gygax or some shit and that when he left it went to Crawford and Perkins, maybe Mearls.

I honestly am starting to believe it.
>>
>>62941629
>Sorcerer has always been my favorite class for some unfathomable reason, even knowing that they are and will always be a bad wizard.

I think part of it is that sorcerer, for all it's issues, has flair in flavour. The wizard is so non-distinct it barely exists outside of mechanics because it can do anything and everything. When every single class in the game can have access to spells, 'has the most spells' isn't much of an interesting concept.

Limitations on the wizard would at least add some much needed flavour to the class. Tell us what it's good at, what it's not good at etc without it just being 'He interacts with the system everyone interacts with the hardest'
>>
>>62941755
Unironically this though
Tieflings are fine as a tertiary race of outsider mutts but uniform primary race tieflings were a mistake.
>>
>>62941903

Wizards suffer from this, although so do Druids and Clerics. Their archetypes are so ludicrously broad and ill defined they become virtually flavourless.
>>
>>62941921
Druids yes, clerics not so much. The Domain system is still specific enough that clerics are both going to have a well-defined role and are going to have distinct mechanical and flavourful differences between subclasses beyond power ranking.
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>>62941935

I think it does still mechanically hurt clerics, since they have part of the Paladins holy warrior, the divine caster smites from heaven and the support focused healer, all blended together. I think 4e's solution here was pretty elegant, redefining the Divine classes into four clear focuses, letting Paladin and Cleric focus on a single aspect, while Avenger and Invoker each picked up the pieces that no longer fit in the standard class.
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>>62941962
I don't necessary consider that a bad thing, since all of those aspects were always there in the class. I don't think it's necessary to limit a cleric to being a buff-doling healslut. On the other hand, there are definitely domains whose style of play can be summed up as "paladin but better", so it's a valid concern.
>>
>>62933550
The biggest thing that went wrong was that they had a solid enough D&D game at certain points during the playtest when it was public, especially in the early stages when people weren't constantly demanding Wizard buffs. Then towards the end things got bad, and once the playtest when behind closed doors everything ended up like >>62934114
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>>62941903
Forcing schools on to them helped some with this, but let's be real, they're all still learning literally every single spell they come across.
>>62941921
>>62941935
Domains definitely helped define clerics as individuals, but even with the differences between say, War and Arcane, they're both still going to be preparing a lot of similar spells. Druid circles are even worse for that definition though, since they all get the same basic features and do basically the same things. At least they dropped the animal companion feature, 3.5 druid had so damn many class features on top of their full casting.
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>>62941867
>Monte Cook left.
Monte as a guy i cant stand.3.5 i cant stand. But the dude leaves and makes the Cypher system and i really enjoy it (it really needs a second edition to add some meat to its bones and some alt rules for races, and more balance in the Foci and i'll play nothing else)

>>62941892
>People have suggested he was legitimately possessed by the Curse of Gygax
I'd believe it but Crawford and Mearls where always shit so idk if they are cursed or just retarded.

>>62933550
>what went wrong?
A number of things from the fallout of 4e or Mearls's caster fetish to them just maing 3.5 but with less variety in character building. It wants to be OSR but it doesn't commit to the shear brutality or complexity of those games instead oping for a more 3.5 approach but without the vast selection of player options. this makes most characters feel samey and combat a slog with nothing exciting happening. And the big setting they are pushing is from fucking magic with eberron in early access like a fucking cheap Steam game.

I kinda want 6e to get crazy and try a free form class structure like Shadow run, but without the retarded rules.
>>
>>62942144
>But the dude leaves and makes the Cypher system and i really enjoy it (it really needs a second edition to add some meat to its bones and some alt rules for races, and more balance in the Foci and i'll play nothing else)

He just released what is effectively Numenera revised (backwards compatible), and he is planning a release of Cypher revised in 2019 (also completely backwards compatible, it seems to be a set of a few more rules such as player intrusions, a redo of the foci system to be completely customizable, and some other stuff).
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>>62942144
Mearls actually used to be *really good*. People called him Fighter Bro for a reason.

As someone who was there for the change, the shift from "Our Guy" to "Cucktimus Maximus" in /tg/'s perception was startling.

That said...he...doesn't actually...do much these days? He shit posts on twitter, toes the company line, and lazes around usually. I can't think of one thing in recent years he actually did anything with since 5e actually came out instead of just rubberstamping his name on it and going back to pretending to be a candy Ithilid or some shit.
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>>62942144
>D&D
>freeform class structure
Don't hold your breath.
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>>62942169
>He just released what is effectively Numenera revised (backwards compatible), and he is planning a release of Cypher revised in 2019 (also completely backwards compatible, it seems to be a set of a few more rules such as player intrusions, a redo of the foci system to be completely customizable, and some other stuff).
i knew he was making a revised version but i didnt know he was letting foci be customizable. Any word on how thats gonna work? like is it a wide set of option for each Foci you pick or are we talking shit more like D&D feats. If its like feats idk how i feel about that.

>player intrusions
the intrusions and the way EXP are handled are my least favorite part of the game by far. but i already use the alt rules for exp so we'll see.

Was Numenera Discovery and Destiny hot trash like everyone says?
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>>62942204
i mean they did hardcore class structure with 4e, i personally love it but 5e/3e does nothing for me. I'd rather them get fucking nutso than tread the same idea again and again.
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>>62942225
>Was Numenera Discovery and Destiny hot trash like everyone says?
i don't know, I haven't gotten mine yet.

>the intrusions and the way EXP are handled are my least favorite part of the game by far. but i already use the alt rules for exp so we'll see.

I love intrusions so far. I have a custom rule though: if a player fails a task by one or two steps, I offer them an intrusion which comes with no XP. They can decline it and fail, or take the intrusion and succeed.
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>>62942281
i just make intrusions give "soft exp" that is for canceling future intrusions, and "hard exp" for leveling i give out for quests completion since there are only 6 levels. Its good to see someone else play Cypher on here since tg hates it mostly. (thou o feel its more the setting Numenera they hate than the actual system.)
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>>62942202
>Mearls actually used to be *really good*. People called him Fighter Bro for a reason.
>As someone who was there for the change, the shift from "Our Guy" to "Cucktimus Maximus" in /tg/'s perception was startling.
he stenciled his name on 4e and then killed it early for Essentials thus pissing off the 4e crowd and then made 5e the most blant game on the market thus pissing off the other halve.
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>>62934114
>Traded the versatile Star Patron for Warlocks for the more codified Great Old One
What was the subclass like?
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>>62941737
Fortunately, 4e is one of the games that's actually as fun to run as it is to play, so being "stuck" as the one playing it isn't so bad.
>>
>>62943104
Star Pact could be spun in two ways; literal "cosmic elementalism" with a big focus on radiant, cold and necrotic damage, or as "pseudo Lovecraftian", which let you use psychic, necrotic and mind-warping effects. Or you could even blend the two themes together.

So, you could make your Starlock a servant of Ulban, a time-traveling comet hurtling back from a doomed future to avert a world-ending catastrophe. Or become a student of Caiphon, opening the gate for malevolent beings from beyond the stars, whether it be the world-eating star Acamar or Mother Pandora. Or you could be a scholar of the celestial firmament who cuts foes down with starlight and the cold of space.

It was a minor nitpick, I'll admit, but the GOOlock just focuses too much on mind-trips and tentacles for my liking.
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>>62933550
WotC tried to make 5e casual friendly, while also appealing to grognards.
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>>62941867
I feel like Schwalb and Cook were the two best designers they had. Schwalb understood what D&D was trying to be, I think SotDL shows he knows how to streamline D&D to an elegant dungeon crawl system. Cypher shows Cook understands what makes games intuitive and fun.

Crawford's ideas are okay.... but Mearls' are generally problematic. He has some good ideas but a lot of bad ones and he seems to struggle figuring out how to make that distinction.

Some of the commentary from former devs like Monter Cook and Robert Schwalb makes it seem like they and others wanted to make 5e a bit different but were overruled for the sake of "legacy" and Mearls' continuing scattershot ideas.
>>
>>62941999
Which domains are "paladin but better" paladins main purpose is passive aoe buffs and fuck huge single target damage. No cleric does those two things better in my experience. Granted the two classes are arguably the two most powerful classes in the game. Paladin is really good at fighting with a little healing and spell casting, and cleric is really good at spell casting and healing (even the domains not specifically geared for it) and can mix it up in melee if need be.
>>
>>62942202
Mearls was N E V E R good. Dude shat out Iron Heroes, which was supposed to be martial edition D&D, yet instead became caster edition somehow. He’s a terrible designer.
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>>62933550

Wizards successfully identified what made early editions of D&D successful and replicated them leading to a glorious renaissance of the tabletop community.

Unfortunately, they also decided to keep ideas from 3e and 4e which limit the game's quality to 'mediocre' at best. Even so, it can serve as a decent gateway game to BECMI or BX
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>>62942440
>he stenciled his name on 4e
He was part of the original Project Orcus design team as well as nearly every development and testing team it had. He was even the lead developer on the Bo9S.

And Essentials is provably not his baby--if you look at the credits page for a couple you can see that it still lists Andy Collins as managing the game, which means half the line was being printed by the time Mearls ended up in charge.
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>>62940493
blox your path
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>>62942144
Crawford is the caster fetishist, like it's not even a little close. Crawford specifically made convoluted rules to make casters slightly stronger.
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>>62933550

WoTC happened.

1. Took my D&D and made it an esport. Compettive D&D twitch streams? WTF is this?

2. Catering to min-maxers. GTFO. D&D was never a WAAC hobby.

3. Threw in politics, even picked a fucking side. This pisses half the fanbase off if you live in the USA. If youre foreign like me and dont give a jolt about American lefty-righty political statements, it really pisses everyone off.

4. Not building upon fleshed out campaign worlds. Adding their silly over-the-top culturally bankrupt MTG worlds instead.

5. Not giving my d12 more playtime.

The rulesset for 5th isnt terrible. Its a nod to the good old days. (Ive been playing since 1991.)
>>
>>62933550
Basically what happened was that 4e split the player base hard between itself and Pathfinder. This made the antediluvians who run Hasbro take notice, casting their bale gaze upon WotC and told them to fix this. WotC placated these profit-seeking monsters by saying 4e would win the players back. It didn't. Then they said Essentials would win the players back. It didn't. So finally WotC said "MtG has better ROI" and defunded D&D. So now we're lucky if we get 2 books a year.

Hasbro is super-savvy when it comes to games and toys, and knows brand recognition matters. They know having D&D be synonymous with RPG for literally everyone but the grognards on forums is good for their property. So D&D gets a drip-feed of funds to keep it alive. Expenses are cut, sales are pretty good, so D&D is worth its ROI again. But, they're happy to ride the increased sales and won't let the D&D division grow in the monster it was during 3.Xe and 4e days.
>>
>>62942144
Monte Cook is really hit and miss. He wrote a bunch of good Planescape stuff, Dark Matter, Ptolus. He's also made a lot of stinkers like Arcana Unearthed, "Monte Cook's World of Darkness", and Numenera.
>>
>>62943364
Yeah, there were a lot of different ideas thrown around during the NEXT playtests and I really think some of them ought to have survived into the released product.
>>
>>62951374
>1. Took my D&D and made it an esport. Compettive D&D twitch streams? WTF is this?
To be totally fair, that's 100% a third party thing. They even had to change the name to drop 'D&D' from it.

>D&D was never a WAAC hobby
In a thread the other day someone found an old gaming magazine that had two back-to-back reviews of OD&D: One praised the game as being a fully engaging experience where you interact with a world and its inhabitants, chasing myths and going on daring adventures and chase myths.
The second review was about how the game is only fun after 20 hours of play, and about how the objective is to kill things so you can then kill bigger things. The WAAC crowd was ALWAYS there.
>>
>>62951374
>>62952766
>WAAC
Women's Army Auxiliary Corps?
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>>62933550
Nothing. It's the best system for streaming and podcasts, which is absolutely perfect for the current market. I believe that this was completely unintentional, but that doesn't matter. 5E is doing exactly what the game needed.
>>
>>62933550
They refuse to release much content for it, but thank fuck it's not 4rrie shit.
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>>62951715
>and Numenera.
The setting or the system? The system (Cypher) isnt a bad rules lite generic system. Numenra as a setting is kinda shit
>>
>>62953807
What else would it mean?
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>>62941903
Making wizards shit doesn't solve all the worlds problems, 4e fanboy.
>>
>>62954008
>having opinions this wrong
kys famalam

>>62954043
>give wizards an identity beyond "casts all the spells" is making them shit
>>>/exitbag/
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>>62954043
But it solves most of em. Im not saying what they did in 4e is the only solution or tgat it was a good one but it did even things out.
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>>62954069
>kys famalam
>Kill yourself for not liking the WoW tabletop!
I'm getting shit for coming in here and hating your product, but shit, you're the guy having an autism fit about different opinions.
>>
>>62954008
Idk man some of 5es splats and adventures makes 4es look like the gold standard. Atleast 4e had new classes, multiple supported settings all in books that where actually worth the price tag for shear volume of content. All of 5es splats are over half rehashed lore with shit subclasses and races. Even xanathars guide isnt worth nkre thab 20 bucks.
>>
>>62954069
Your suggestion is 'make them bad at things' anon.
>>62954084
If your only objection to DnD is 'this class I like isn't the best' then no, the real problem is that you really have no idea how to judge overall quality.
>>
>>62954154
What's the point of having more content if the system itself is unforgivable? You have to actually PLAY the game, you know.
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>>62953895
What makes you think its perfect for streaming and the normies? Genuinely curiosity since i think it was more the nostalgia for the 80s thanks to tv and movies, and the hard puch by the sjw crowd that made people want to check it out rather than 5e rules set.
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>>62951610
It's not hard to recognize that every problem with the current state of the franchise is 4e's fault. Even if you like it, you have to acknowledge that it's not what people wanted. And their job, as always, is to give people what they want. Their failure in this means that it was a failure as a product.
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>>62954175

And 4e plays great. It might not suit your playstyle, but that's not a valid reason to say it lacks any value. It just wasn't made for you.
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>>62954234

Not actually 4e's fault. Pic related
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>>62954279
>4e plays great
If you like videogames, maybe, but anon, most people didn't want an MMO in tabletop form.
>>62954292
This is the very definition of blaming others for your mistakes. Learn to take responsibility like an adult, holy shit.
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>>62954292
How in heaven that pic does not show that is 4ed fault?
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>>62954292
Isn't this pic supporting the argument that 4e was meant to be made into a videogame, thus supporting the points that it sucks because it's like a videogame and that it was their fault for failing do to delivering a product players didn't want?
>>
>>62954292
You just demonstrated that they created a crippled RPG in a format not optimized for the tabletop and the enjoyment there, but to be expanded in other media and being convenient for the format in some character builder or some similar shit.
Great job anon. Chapeau.
>>
>>62954292
Putting on my PM hat for a moment, it blows my mind that Hasbro and WotC ran a project with a bus factor / lottery factor / murder-suicide factor of 1. That's not rotten luck, that's negligence.
>>
>>62954892
Fuck you are right. I mean this is not a family-based small company.
>>
>>62954234
Anon, the reason 5e sucks is exactly because they gave the people what they wanted.
>>
>>62955775
Or maybe you just never liked DnD?
>>
>>62933550
The dev team. 5e had good potential and is unironically a fun game, but it's been managed into the ground. WotC literally took a poll on settings that people would want in 5e, picked Eberron for it, then promptly FUCKED everyone who liked Eberron in one of the most blatant displays of undeserved contempt for customers I've ever seen, just so they could make time for a book that equates to a marketing plug for Magic: the Gathering. A book that literally no one was asking for.
Thanks, WotC.
>>
>>62955816
Nah man, I like oldschool stuff well enough. This whole new "let's give everything a gorillion hitpoints, but make it so that nobody ever misses dragging the fights to multiple-hour long rollfests where you can tell who's gonna win after ten minutes. Oh, and also let's base the system math around having five f these encounters a day, because they are so EPIC and FUN" design philosophy makes me want to kill myself.
>>
>>62933609
Holy fuck, the first post was truly the best this time
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>>62955894
Anon, I find it disingenuous to say "No I totally like oldschool DnD but also modern DnD should be the literally intended to be a videogame 4e!" You're full of shit.
>>
>>62955948
>modern DnD should be the literally intended to be a videogame 4e!
I never said that. Not everybody who disagrees with you is one person.
Also at least 4e was intended to be something, as opposed to the "let's put everything with mass appeal in with no regard for consequences to the gaming experience" design, that went into 5e.
>>
>>62956404
Pff, poor defense senpai.
>>
Reminder that the 'video game' criticism of 4e has always been false and is a meme spread by the ignorant. 4e has plenty of legitimate flaws, but people very rarely actually talk about them, they just repeat decades old bullshit.
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>>62956494
Except >>62954292
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>>62956511

Yes? It describes them wanting to make a digitally integrated tabletop platform. It also explicitly points out they couldn't make a videogame. The actual video game comparisons to its mechanics are all incredibly surface level, and all the mechanics can be more easily traced to earlier design in board games or other TTRPG's. 4e was a game with a modern design paradigm, which has benefited from some innovations in digital game design, but still only at home in a tabletop context. The actual mechanics of 4e would be hard to port into a video game, the number of interrupts would make gameplay extremely tedious.
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>>62956607
It describes how it was made to be a videogame hybrid because they didn't have the rights for a regular videogame, anon.
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>>62956679

But that's not what the text says, at all. Actually read it. At no point do they imply that.
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>>62956688
Man you really are fucking illiterate.
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>>62956909

So you can't actually provide the example, and are just resorting to insults? Good to know.
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>>62956925
The image is right there.
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>>62956932

And if it said what you claim it said, you could provide an example. You can't. You're twisting their words and creating an implication that isn't actually in the text.
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>>62955868
Yeah, it's crazy stupid. Keith Baker has mentioned before that he would be happy to get back to writing Eberron but it's not really up to him since he doesn't own the setting. The poll said people really wanted Eberron. It sold well enough in 3.5e to get a 4e release. And we get Wayfinder's Guide...

My shitty homebrew I've been using in my game while I waited for official material is more expansive and well-developed than it, for fuck's sake.
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>>62939991
So “““Mike Mearls”””

>>62940114
Yeah and it’s the worst game everyone is playing
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>>62957147
>>So “““Mike Mearls”””
Don't forget Jeremy "Fighters using a feat is a cheese factory but a spell that gives you an infinite wizard army is fine" Crawford.
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>>62957405
>infinite wizard army
?
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>>62957501
Without going into every little detail, the gist of it is that you use the Simulacrum spell to make a copy of you, then it uses Wish to make another copy that can also use Wish to make another copy that can also use Wish and so on and so forth. This was somehow not worthy of a rules clarification or errata, but a martial character being able to make an attack, use a bonus action to shove a creature prone (granting advantage on attacks from creatures 5ft away), and then continue using any Extra Attacks they had was (and I'm quoting him directly here) "a cheese factory."
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>>62957582
Mearls and Crawford have some good ideas but their obsession with casters is definitely their biggest failing. They both have said at different times that non-casters are their favorite classes, but they continuously always make magic more and more powerful.

There's a few D&D heartbreakers that reel this back, including SotDL which Robert Schwalb, who was a designer of 5e, made. I suspect one of the disagreements was how to model wizards.
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>>62956968
>more expansive and well developed
Anon that's actually just Eberron as intended.
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>>62951374
How can one person be so retarded
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>>62957582
jesus christ
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>>62933550
It's a fine rules light game for new players.
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>>62933550
>Subclasses locking you into one play style instead of giving each class a menu of options to pick and choose from
>Gold is absolutely useless mechanically unless your DM lets you go crazy with hirelings, which due to bounded accuracy breaks the game
>Proficiency skill system doesn't allow characters to feel adept at their trained skills until high level or if they are a rogue/bard
>Wot4e Monk, Frenzied Barbarian, Wild Magic Sorcerer and the Ranger exist
>Sorcerers shafted compared to Wizards again
>No great rules for crafting
>All cool martial combat tricks are locked behind the Battle Master Fighter's maneuvers, meaning houserules are required if the party Paladin wants to disarm his opponent
>Circle of the Moon Druids are horrifically busted in low level play, like one man party busted
>Rogues are so mediocre and ass compared to classes like Bard and Wizard
>Dragonborn is a shit tier race, both mechanically and flavor wise
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>>62951374
>1
I agree that's stupid, but it's not exactly new. Competitive events at conventions were a part of early D&D.
>2
Yes, WAAC misses the point of an RPG, but that's definitely not true. It's always been a part of D&D. The charop board on the official 3.5 forums was insane. I guess you're just lucky you never had to deal with people like that.
>3
We can all agree on this, but sadly it's almost impossible to avoid these days. RPGnet has turned the hobby into a joke.
>4
No, they did it far too much with one particular setting that is too fucking fleshed out already (Probably so they can push organized play). The fact they waited until 5e to do a MTG crossover is actually extremely surprising. Not really the best use of their time, but at least it makes some sense. They definitely need to use more settings though, and have more material that can be slotted into any setting without having to rewrite every single location and NPC to de-Faerun them.
>5
True.
>>
The game becomes exponentially more complicated the moment combat becomes more than walking around in a flat stone area, hitting each other with swords and casting spells. introducing climbing, shoving, grappling, swimming, mounted combat, hell even walls and the system immediately shits itself
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>>62933550
Spears don't have reach.
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>>62959871
but whips do right?
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>>62933550
It's a D&D product that's not B/X.
>>
It's not the edition of Dungeons and Dragons that I personally grew up with.
>>
I avoided making any larger decisions, rarely took up on offers and opportunities, and now I’m stuck disatisfied with my life and I don’t know what to do about it.
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>>62933550
Nothing. They started with the design goal of "be D&D" and focus tested every idea they had to hell and back under the guise of play testing and made something that fulfilled their design goal. It's arguably more a triumph of marketing than of design, but regardless it's hugely successful.

/tg/ was always desperate to hate it, because it's D&D. It's kind of interesting that it more closely followed the Pathfinder path (initial praise that transitioned into scorn as it got more popular and more books came out) as opposed to the 4e path of being polarizing from the word go with the hate, as always, being louder. If you're ever tempted to think /tg/ was ever good, remember shit twinkie and touhou power cards.
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>>62936041

As it should be.
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>>62960436
Then what should level 1 adventurers kill? Hurt feelings?
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>>62956968
I'm pretty sure anybody's shitty homebrew is more extensive than anything they'll give us. I started working on homebrew for more Ravnica stuff after they announced the book, and even I was able to hammer out a few subclasses for all the guilds while WotC managed just two and some spells.
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>>62933550
It smells funny. XD
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>>62939289
mearls is also a devout caster supremacist faggot who hates all martials forever. and his ehtos shows in the product.
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>>62941629
>>62934114

In one of my campaigns we just agreed to give the Sorcerer in the group Ritual Casting and that helped a lot. It's one of my favorite classes flavor wise but it could definitely get some love mechanic wise.
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>>62936041

The stretch of being Level 1 is one of the tensest moments in any 5e campaign. The difference between a level 1 and level 2 character is borderline comical as a single bad flank can drop just about any class.
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>>62964260
>tfw the level 1-3 stretch of tension and danger far surpasses the bullshit powerfantasy of levels 10+
It's so much better when the threats seem more grounded and real and you're always on your toes, rather than the game becoming fucking comic book tier superheroes vs supervillains with spells that can clear whole armies or resurrect dead teammates easily whilst your martials will be able to cleave a fuckin dragon in half with super mega armor and shields. I love the high fantasy and crazy magic and setting, but after levels 10+ it starts to get too ridiculous in powerlevel, like DB transferring into DBZ, the power levels are fine until after the Freiza/Namek saga, then it becomes ridiculous.
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>>62964604
>>62964260

Sounds like you'd be better off choosing a low fantasy RPG with a focus on that kind of gritty gameplay, as opposed to modern D&D.
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Anyone who thinks 5e is worse than the precedents probably never played them.
5e managed where the other failed: make the game easy, enjoyable by everybody and (that's what really mattered to Hasbro) selling good.
You can literally do anything you did with the other editions with it and possibly "translate" material from one to another.
I personally think it's good and really, if you don't like something just don't play it or homebrew
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>>62964623
A lot of low fantasy games fail to capture the fun of the magic presented in DnD, and often focus too much on gritty realism in muh rpg. I still like high fantasy, just non-comical powerlevels. High power epic level campaigns never interest me because it becomes a spamfest of ultra abilities.

Do you know any good lower power RPG's you'd suggest looking into?
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>>62964604
THIS!
Holy shit i remember getting so bloody disinterested in pathfinder I only played the epic 6 houserules just so people had to think about their world and characters.

Honestly I may have to do something similar to 5e. Would even be easier since its so many less modifiers to try and fidgit with
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>>62964667

The only thing this proves is that you never played any preceding edition of D&D, or that none of them clicked with you.

Just because 5e resonates most with you doesn't mean it's better at everything it does than every edition of D&D. It's not.
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>>62964729

I'm confused. Why would higher power levels mean you didn't have to think about the world or your characters?
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>>62964604
You're not looking for DnD then, it's never been grounded and realistic. We used to have shit like crashed spaceship engines granting people magic through radioactive contamination for fuck's sake.
>>
Once your character is past a certain point nothing but the strongest, supposedly rarest creatures of the world and beyond are a threat.
A normal nation could toss their entire army against the players and the players win. (If going by rules as written)
Now suddenly your forced to face not one legendary, rare super power creature but several all working together just to pose a threat.
Why dose that lich have a beholder friend? to challenge the players.
How did no one notice this large group of storm giants gathering before now? So the players have a reason to be attacked by them.

The idea of someone being capable of reaching the power heights in 20 lvl dnd is a world-building headache. Espicially since most human npcs, not wizards or high priests, cap at around 5-7...
So the strongest knight in a kingdom is around 7-8... then you got jim the lvl 14 bard who can kick his ass without even using his bard magic.
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>>62964927
But there really is no other system thats more grounded per say, that dose not go either full grim all the time or so crunch heavy it makes paizo look like shorthand.
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>>62964973
Fantasy Craft?
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>>62933609
FPBP. Also the OP pic is shit.
>What about 5th edition
Exhaustively shat upon already, we don't need another thread.
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>>62964959
That's very common in fantasy in general, heroes are heroic and beyond normal men.
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>>62941861
Aarakocra are so claustrophobic they won't go into building or caves, so unless you can draw out all the stuff from their lairs good luck get anything done, also just have strong winds if you have an outside puzzle that flying ruins since that forces non magic flying to land the same turn they lift off
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>>62964959

So you need a GM who can flesh out a cosmic level setting and cosmic level threats. I don't really see what's any different.
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>>62964959
I feel at times wizards need to release or at the very least offer some realms mechanics or army battle systems. My fighter at level 15-20 should be a king, and have the crunch to back it up. That’s how I would address the power gap.
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>>62957752
How can one person be so retarded to not undertstand a post on the 4CHAN
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>>62934191
Yeah pardon me for not wanting to scribble down half a dozen lines of addition every time someone does a full attack.
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>>62964927
The feel of DnD from levels 1-10 is golden, it's not like I'm not looking for the high niggery that comes with the game, just not the top level adventures. A lot of games suffer with terrible endgame, DnD included. The journey is always more fun than the destination. Very few games nail the destination part
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>>62965294
Honestly for a game like D&D your entire character sheet should just be an index card with a big number written on it in fat black sharpie.

>You are a +4 character. Whenever you want to do anything roll this d20 and add +4.

because that's how it always ends up anyway
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>>62943221
How can a tabletop game be "casual"? You wanna do long division to figure out your cock size when you hit a barmaid with it and bruise the fatty tissue on her right cheek and then roll for infection from aids and simulate a war between your white blood cells and the bacteria under your phimosised penis?

Casual is shit you can play to completion in a short span of time, like poker or chess.
>>
>>62954146
4e is closer to Super Robot Wars than anything else.
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>>62934114
>battlemaster is actually really fun
>perhaps in only combat, but rogues are still cool skill monkeys, thieves, etc.
>good, fuck psionics with a rake. Arcane/divine is all you need
>sorcs are the only class with metamagic, they rule
>i'll grant you this one
>who cares, homebrew your own
>dragonborn are only for faggots anyways so who cares?

here's your (you)
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>>62965316

But that's retarded and utterly false
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>>62959685
Pretty spot on.

I will go on about crafting a bit. The rules are short and very uninteresting as you said. Takes 1 year of downtime to craft a set of normal plate mail? No benefits or changes depending on the material or skill of the craftsmen other than simple proficiency.

I understand they want the DMs to work crafting into their games as needed if they do the current system is so terrible the DM has to make up his own to make it the least bit satisfying.
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>>62954279
>>62954292
>>62954308
>>62954437
>>62954313
>4e is a videogame
>There is literally no videogame adaption of 4e that even attempts to emulate the rules
>>
>>62965413
It's completely the case, D&D is basically "think of something, roll high to do it", everyone always has their +5 or +6 to the thing their class is good at, when you look at the psychological principles at play you can just boil all that down to one vector.
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>>62965463
That's because 4e is shit and dead, anon.
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>>62965463
Darkest Dungeon is basically 4e with 2e numbers.
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>Trips, disarms and other maneuvers become a "once a day" instead of something people can just do
>Is also locked into one class so allowing other classes to do these pretty simple maneuver diminishes the fighter
>Stats softcap at 20, and hardcap at 24
>Magic is way too easy to get hold of for non spellcaster classes
>No character "building" from feats and abilities, simply pick your archetype and follow whatever it gives you
>Some of these archetypes are objectively better than others, pigeonholing you into playing one or two of them because if you pick anything else you're actively fucking yourself
>Weapons are glorified beatsticks, no reason not to use the biggest beatstick
>Backgrounds are restrictive, almost no control over your skills
>Monsters go from being flimsy excuses of their former selves to Godlike champions that can wreck parties, almost no middle ground
>Multiclassing makes any character overpowered with very little thought
>Feats go from gamebreaking to downright useless
>Stupid fucking "3 strikes" death save system rather than just -10 and you die
>players are gods by level 5
It's fun in context, but playing or running 5e for too long makes me feel like I've been swimming in the shallow end of the pool. It's so restrictive and wonky, more like a DnD theme park than an RPG
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>>62965577
>Trips, disarms and other maneuvers become a "once a day" instead of something people can just do
No, those are basic maneuvers too, not that the BM isn't liquid shit. The BM just does damage alongside them, which shouldn't even be a maneuver.
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>>62940071
>For what it is, it's fine, but in terms of its actual mechanics it's not innovative or revolutionary in any way, it's very bland, middle of the road safe RPG design
Which is what D&D has been the whole time, aside from the delusional period known as 4th ed.
>>
>>62965696
>what wotc D&D has been the whole time
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>>62966394
Pretend grognards at it again, acting like the 4e videogame is muh twu dnd.
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>>62933550
you feel like a god at level 5 and then there are many more levels after that's what went wrong
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>>62966411
>children thinking i play not-TSR D&D
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>>62959935

Depending on the length just like it does does with spears. The standard 'Spear' on the weapon list is just too short to benefit but something like a pike (in essence a very long spear) does.

I think the bigger issue with whips is that they're assumed to be 3-4 metres long...
>>
>>62964973
>But there really is no other system thats more grounded per say
If we're exclusively talking about medieval fantasy...
>The Dark Eye
>Runequest
>BRP
>Dogs In The Vineyard (not quite Medieval, but close enough)
>GURPS Fantasy
And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more if I bothered to do some google fu.
>>
>>62964959
I don't see a problem with this. Once you've gone from little Paul to Mua'Dib, your actions SHOULD be world altering. A setting's stasis/equilibrium should not survive contact with epic level adventurers or threats. These threats should be a big fucking deal from beyond the known/mapped world, and it should be an equally big deal that destiny saw fit to groom a group of heroes to defend the known world against it. Once you've reached that level of play, the epiolgue shouldn't be "and then everything went back to the setting's original equilibrium of medieval stasis that the GM created in the setting notes." Epic heroes should feel epic, and change the world.
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>>62965490

You're a retard who doesn't understand D&D
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>>62965696

Yeah, it is a damn shame. 4e was innovative, with modern design and a clear idea of what it wanted to be, and 5e lost all of that.
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>>62960442
They should kill Goblins anyway, accepting that there's a high chance of death. A level 1 PC is basically a peasant with a budding skill in their class, and the road to level 3 is a trial by fire that will decide whether they have the mettle to become a Big Damn Hero or just die as another redshirt.
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>>62960380
I did all of that and I am dissatisfied anyway.
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>>62954069
shut up retard
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>>62965463
Can you point out where >>62954313 states that 4ed is a videogame, you pathetic paranoid fuck?
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>>62965577
>>players are gods by level 5
....aaaaaand this disqualifies the whole post.
Have a nice day!
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>>62968303
Not everyone wants to play OSR, anon.
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>>62934253
>licensing out the name for video games

D&D hasn't gotten a good game since Hasbro acquired the license, so that's certainly not the case. ToEE was released in 2003.

They are literally sitting on one of the longest running RPG video game licenses around, with the most good games to its logo, and doing nothing with it.
>>
>>62970229
3rd is like that too and I love it.
>>
>>62934150
That's the point.





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