What is the most difficult genre of video games at top-level play? Is it shooting games? Fighting games? RTS? Or something else?
>>403242198Probably RTS like StarCraft1, WC3,thenMobas; Dota2 and League.
Unironically shmupsOne of Dodonpachi Daioujou's modes took like 8 years after release for anyone in the world to clear it
>>403242198Shmups without question.
>>403243346The genre's pretty hard as a whole I think. I've been trying out a few from the early 80's, and they all require full concentration to make it more than a few minutes in.
>>403244207>two favorite genres are in the top two tiersfeels good mang
>>403242198aoe 2 no doubt
>>403244207good list anon
>>403242198Shmups, Rhythm, Fighting and RTS share the top spot. MMOs are the lowest skillceiling, and everything else is in between.
>>403244207Platformers? I can't think of many truly difficult ones. There's stuff like IWBTG but that's lots of trial & error.
Shmups/Bullet hell, Rhythm games, and fighting games are all absolutely fucking ridiculous. I think those three alone are definitely the hardest genres that really require the players to learn the game.
>>403244873That entire list is retarded. There's a difference between average difficulty and mastery difficult.Any idiot can play fighting games, but the ceiling is high. Same for platformers.
>>403244207you haven't played fighting games, sorry scrub
>>403244207Does this mean actual roguelikes or those casual games like Dead Cells?
>>403244873If IWBGT is what comes to your mind when you think of difficult platformers you don't know a thing about the genre.
>>403244873Dustforce. Yotta difficult still only has just barely 100 people who have ever completed it.
>>403245369I never said I knew anything, man.
>>403245047>>403245061>Seething fighting fagsNiggers rule your genre. Niggers are factually subhuman with below average IQ.
>>403245262It says roguelikes and not roguelites, so I assume roguelikes. Not like Dead Cells.
>>403245381I think we should disqualify games that are retarded. No one cares if they are difficult since no one would want to play them.
>>403245262Actual roguelikes. There's even roguelites marked on the list in a lower tier so I assume that's for things like dead cells
>>403245492I'm actually a rhtyhm game fag but I have respect for fighting game fans. And niggers playing fighting games are only a thing in America. Like every high-skill game, Asians are the undisputed kings.
>>403245520Dustforce is well known for being the best platformer of all time. There's nothing retarded about it. It's not some shitty game like IWTBTG, it's a master craft in platforming.
>>403245480You're saying that they don't fit into the category of being "truely difficult" which basically says you think you can judge the genre's entire library.Platformers are not as tough as shmups because you generally have more life and you can accomplish a lot more with memorization than you can with a shmup. The most difficult ones would be arcade games from before the year 1990. There's plenty of tough ones that come after but they never returned to Ghost and Goblins level.
>>403244207finally, a list that gives rhythm games the respect they deserve.10/10 my dude
>>403244207>action rpg not at the very bottom>moba at the bottom because I don't like it
>>403245841t. braindead mario fan.lol indeed.
Shmups aren't dynamic enough to be the most difficult. Anyone can git gud with enough practice. I'd say high level fighting is the most difficult.
rhythm games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFWMwscsxLo
>>403242198>What is the most difficult genre of video games at top-level play?You'd have to split top-level between singleplayer and multiplayer.
>Easy is harder than NormalWhy did ZUN do this?
>>403245945Shmups are the most dynamic. Also there's people who have played shmups for 10+ years near daily who never come close to a WR.Even basic vanilla clears of shmups are hard. The entire genre is a casual filter.
Why are X4 games totally removed from the discussion?
>>403245945Come back when you got that DOJ 2-ALL.
>>403246103to punish easy mode players of course.
>>403246117Because singleplayer is garbage and nobody plays them competitively due to unfitting format.
>>403245061>le mashing buttons is hard meme
>>403245749You yourself acknowledge that platformers aren't that tough on average, so saying that most aren't truly difficult is a fair assumption. Anyways, the guy's image put fighting games below platformers, so I was only curious about platformers that could possibly be more challenging (besides the obvious Ghosts and Goblins).
>>403246296n-n-no you h-have to l-like adapt to p-people duckng and b-blocking and stuff SH-SHUT UP IT'S HARD PLS BELIEVE ME
>>403244207Transformice bootcamp maps are pretty hard
>>403245987When I watch shit like this I get embarrassed for having trouble with Miku games.
>>403245492go back to /pol/ with your racist bullshit
>>403245864Osu counts as a rhythm game right? Because if so, that has every right to be where it is on that list
Rhythm games, easily
>403246715Meant to reply to >>403244873
>>403244207>Played touhou on and off for 3 months>Can't beat EoSD normal mode....Lads
>>403246904I believe rhythm and shmup/danmaku are pretty much the same tier. Except that rhythm puts a higher emphasis on reaction, while shmup/danmaku are more about memorization. You still need to be good at both for either genre.Fighting games are a whole other can of worms. Having a human opponent that's not predictable is completely different from a game that plays exactly the same at every attempt.
>>403246251>nobody plays them competitively due to unfitting format.The thread isn't "what are the toughest games played competitively". There's already plenty of discussion for games that have no competitive scene such as platformers.>platformers aren't that tough on averageI never said this. And it's pointless to try to 'average' platformers as the approach to their design has wildly varied with the years.>saying that most aren't truly difficult is a fair assumptionThere are plenty of difficult platformers. There's also a lot of easy shmups. What's your fucking point?>so I was only curious about platformers that could possibly be more challenging (besides the obvious Ghosts and Goblins)Like I said it's going to be the pre 90s arcade ones. Rolling Thunder 2, Black Tiger, off the top of my head. I'd also including Uprising when playing for score. It's pointless for you know to know this stuff though without actually having played tough platformers at a moderate skill level because you would have no reference point. All you could do is name-drop the stuff.------The list is also missing beat em ups which are arguable at the level of platformers.
Any game where you go up against human opponents.
Either multiplayer in RTS or certain multiplayer Fighting games, anything else has an early limit as to how you go about playing it and anything non-multiplayer is literally just about practice makes perfect ie casual tier. Even certain FPS games have a higher skill ceiling than solo games like shoot em ups because no matter how much you practice you simply cannot beat raw talent unlike solo games where you can eventually learn the patterns and memorize everything to complete each level perfectly.
>>403247369>not testing your skills against an unattainable perfection of non-human opponents
>>403247313I think that these difficulty discussions should be limited to singleplayer or player vs game. It's about the game being mechanically hard. Fighting against other players has nothing to do with the game being hard,
>>403245987At least post one of the actually difficult bemani games.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy2h2yDKYyY
Shmups are without a doubt the cream of the crop in terms of difficulty with Rhythm games following shortly after.Both genres require immense reaction time and memorization. Shmups have the added bonus of patterns and section being unmemorizable which forces the player to have to dodge to the best of their ability.
>>403247351The point of his list though was an average tier of difficulty. While there certainly are easy shmups, we're going by averages here, and in that respect the skill level required for shmups certainly surpasses platformers.>All you could do is name-drop the stuffThat's all I was asking for, lol.
>>403248024Rythmen games are for losers though. Playing a fucking plastic instrument with 4-5 buttons when real instruments exist that let you play ANY song. Same thing with the dance, why not do REAL dancing that uses your whole body?People that take rythmen game 'skill' seriously are cringey as fuck.
>>403248569Hey I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree, I'd never put that amount of time into getting good at them. Way too stressful for me, but in terms of raw skill required those two genres stand above the rest.
>>403248019>9 tracksWell shit, that looks hard. But not harder than Sound Voltex.
>>403248569Because rhythm games aren't about playing instruments or dancing. They're about timing and execution.
>>403248569The point of rhythm games is to get the high score which requires skill. No one plays them to simulate playing an instrument. A lot of rhythm games don't even use a plastic instrument.
>>4032488299 buttons spaced out so you have to actually move your arms for each press > 4 buttons, 2 less-used buttons, and 2 knobs all close together. pop'n is generally considered to be much harder than sdvx.
>>403248383What is with your retarded obsession of with 'averages'. You've already admitted you don't play platformers at a high skill level and I'm guess it's the same with shmups. Only someone who is completly divorced from the genres could possible think that the 'average' is not a stupid concept. Because it would never occur to you how silly trying to count how many tough cave or gradius games there than count how many easy shmups there are, from across the 40 fucking decades the genre has existed and try to guess what the 'average' of that looks like.Anyone that actually plays these games at any reasonable skill level discusses individual games. The names of the toughest games in the genre, not some abstract 'average'. I guess you don't want to do that because you don't play these games so you would have no reference point. It wouldn't be a discussion you could participate in.Every post you made has been increasingly stupid and arrogant (but you probably don't even realize it's gotten arrogant).
>>403245945>fighting game babby>never played shmupAlso>Anyone can git gud with enough practiceis true for literally any genre.
>>403248950>They're about timing and execution.So is real music and dancing....do you realize how pathetic you are making yourself sound compared to ballerina's and piano players?>>403249145The games themself simulate playing an instrument LOL. It's just immensely dumbed down. There might be enjoyment in playing them but anyone that thinks skill in them is admirable is a fucking retard.
>>403249439>>403248569This guy is trolling. He's implying that rhythm are exclusively Guitar Hero and DDR.
>>403249439>The games themself simulate playing an instrumentAre you fucking retarded? You obviously never played a rhythm game.
>>403249439>do you realize how pathetic you are making yourself sound compared to ballerina's and piano players?Except you're the only one comparing them. Literally not a single person I know of a considerable number of people that play rhythm games compare it to playing an instrument or dancing because they're nothing alike.
>>403249789Rhythm games are a dumbed down version of those. It's why anyone talking about the 'skill' in them probably shouldn't pass on their genes.You press some buttons or move your feet in accordance with a rhythm following little symbols that tell you what order the notes happen in. Actual music is vastly more intricate and has more potential.
>>403246407you've never played one for more than an hour faggot
>>403249235I was talking about averages because the picture's clearly not talking about the hardest games in the genre. Sure, generalizations are dumb, but it's not like this is some ultra-serious discussion to determine the merits of each genre once and for all. It's a valid point, but is it really worth getting so nitpicky about a meme picture?
STGs are undoubtedly the most difficult singleplayer video game genre. Reading, reaction, planning, execution, and it even involves a huge amount of route creativity and experimentation when it comes to constructing scoring routes. Even ignoring the amount of skill required to just 1cc a game, the amount of work that goes into a world record score is astounding.
>>403250184>That miss at the end.god must that feel so shitty
>>403250267You're trolling a little too hard. Have a pity (You)
>>403242198There is no such thing as a hardest genre. Any genre could be made excruciatingly difficult, to such an extent that only a few people in the entire world would ever bother to beat it.
>>403242198Precision platformers and rhythm games. Shmups are up there too but the doujin scene for them is way smaller so not nearly as much nigh on impossible shit gets produced.>>403244873Since you bring up IWBTG, sorry, but the original is not hard at all and the difficulty does infact mainly come from its poor design and traps. You should look into fangames of it though, there's many thousands of them and a lot of them are legit great games that can put commercial titles to shame. It's not uncommon to have single jumps that take people that play these games hardcore hundreds of hours to complete, not because they are riddled with shitty traps, but just because they require countless frame perfect inputs, cancels, and subpixel manipulations that you have to math out beforehand.
>>403250591>Yfw the uneducated masses try to tell you it's all memo>Yfw those same people can't even successfully pull off a vanilla 1cc
>>403244207>action-rpgs >difficult tier>not casual tiersince fucking when omg
>>403251064>could be made This is about existing games.Which genre has on average the hardest games.
>>403251064m8 shmups are so hard that even casual play is stressful as fuck
>>403251272>mfw achieving my first 1cc after days of constant practiceMay have been Normal mode, but fuck you, to a new person just getting into bullet hell, that meant the world to me. People who don't play them just don't understand.
>>403251272>>Yfw the uneducated masses try to tell you it's all memoThis is one of the most annoying things. People have no idea what is static, random, aimed or otherwise manipulable, etc. Using just fundamentals, a skilled player can easily 1CC new games on a sightread.
>>403251563>finally 1cc>next plays are absolute garbagethis happens too much to me
>>403251129>You should look into fangames of it thoughthisgames like ai min shit on p much everything that was mentioned so far in this thread
>>403251563I know how you feel. I've done so much more since the days of my first normal mode 1cc's and yet non of it compares to beating all of the 2hu games one after another.SA gave me such a rough time and took like 2 weeks of play before I beat its normal mode.
>>403251531For every hard SHMUP, there are a couple hundred piss easy ones. It is one of the most diluted genres that exist alongside platformers. Pretty much the only genre that can be the hardest is going to be entirely multiplayer, as it means there will be a best player or team, meaning that to reach absolute "top level play", you would have to be within that minuscule fraction of the player base.
>all those triggered mobababbies ITT
>>403246802Calling it racist doesn't mean anything or change reality.Not even the above poster, but you're just ad homming. They are factually possessed of smaller skulls, less brain matter, slower synaptic firing, and across the board lower IQ's on average.It isn't 'racism', and spewing 'racism' at someone pointing out facts doesn't make facts less factual.
>>403251963Just because a game is single player doesn't mean it's not competitive. Clearing shmups is baby shit. The game doesn't even begin until you're playing for score, assuming you're not playing some dogshit kusoge.Comparing single player and multiplayer games is generally not a good idea anyway, since they often derive difficulty from different places.
Friendly reminder that the skill ceiling for shmups has never, and will never be reached by a human player. It is so vast that even the best shmup players in the world cannot even begin to hope to reach it.
>>403251402>Which genre has on average the hardest games.That's a retarded way to look at it. There is a metric fuckton of super easy shmups and shmup segments, does that make it an easy genre? No.There is countless terrible rhythm segments in random kids games you will never ever miss a note on even if you tried, does that make FCing the hardest beatmania charts easy? No.There are more platformers that are impossible to die on than you can imagine, does that mean you won't die millions of times on a particularly cancerous L needle screen? No.
>>403252204You can say the same for every genre, or even activity, really. You can always do better, there is always going to be someone better
>>403252190>Clearing shmups is baby shit.Only to somebody who has dedicated a significant amount of time. It's not uncommon for people to take months to clear the Touhou series for the first time on normal mode, which when you think about it, considering each game takes approximately 25 minutes to finish is pure insanity.Once you've dedicated the time into them then sure, clearing games regularly isn't very taxing.
Racing games directly translate into real life skills, and the skill ceiling is incredible. Racing games aren't difficult at their core, but i don't think there's another genre with as high of a skill ceiling.When you get to top level racing, there's almost zero wat to compete unless you were one of those kids whos parents got into karting at age 6 and you stuck with it 4 seasons a year and basically devoted your life to it. Ain't nobody devoting their entire life from age 6 on to fighting games or SHMUPS.
>>403252190>The game doesn't even begin until you're playing for scoreYou necessarily have to define difficulty by how hard it is to obtain victory in said game. If you do not, then difficulty loses all meaning, as most games are virtually impossible to perfect, putting every single game within the genre into the same level of difficulty.
>>40325246490% of racing is down to your machine.
>>403252524not when all machines are equal
Platformers should be up there, look at this bullshithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwzqMtarwU
>>403251963>For every hard competitive player there are a couple thousand piss easy scrubs. It is one of the most diluted player bases that exist alongside MMOs. Pretty much the only genre that can be the hardest is going to be entirely singleplayer, as it means there will be a hardest game or mode, meaning to reach absolute "top level play", you would have to be within that minuscule fraction of the player base.
>>403252524more like 50%, the other half is having perfect control and track memorization
>>403252464I was waiting for someone to drop this on. While I do acknowledge that real life automobilism really exists exclusively for rich parents to dedicate their children to, it has nothing to do with video games.I've had some really tough challenges on racing games before, but I've never heard of people claim that racing games were particularly hard to challenging.>>403252524And then there's this as well. The romantic vision people had of racing is dead, it's just a redundant technological war. A quick look at F1 racing over the last decade will prove this. There's a huge power gap between every team, so the point where the same people lead every race from start to finish.
>>403252508That is a good point. People will often make comparisons between competitive scoring games by looking at how difficult it is to get 90% or 50% of a world record score, for example. Merely clearing such a game is often down at the level of 10% or lower, so it's no surprise that it's usually not considered a notable milestone.
>>403252524Actually, fuck that, Back in the 80's there was the 4WD boom in rally racing. One car still won despite being RWD, because it had better drivers. And it happened again in the 60's with the mini cooper.Even when cars are unequal, it's less than 5% machine unless the track is an oval or something. You know nothing of racing.>>403252741F1 is hampered by money and politics, not tech, and is awful racing. Worse than NASCAR even. Bottom of the barrel garbage. Indy car is lower tech but better racing. The best racing comes from touring cars like DTM, Super GT and V8 Supercars
>>403251819Does it really count if it hasn't been complicated by a human yet though?It's easy to just slap 13813031913 frame perfect inputs in a row and call it the hardest thing ever.
>>403252704So the exact same skillset as shmups and platformers then?
>>403252669I love dustforce, I SS'd every single level, but I just couldn't even bring myself to try get good at Yotta. It's too imposing, it's the full package.The level is long. 3 minutes might not sound like much but that's 3 minutes in which you have to play perfectly at basically every single element a platformer could throw at you. Yotta tests your skill in all fields and demands perfection.I consider myself quite good at platformers, but I ain't SSing Yotta. No way.
>>403242198Anything based heavily on luck
>>403252926some shmups don't let you choose different shipsbut otherwise yeah
>>403244207What about shmup fighters?
>>403252682This all just depends on how you define victory. I personally think you haven't truly won a competitive game until you have beaten the highest difficulty, or in other words won against the strongest team or player. However, I would consider any singleplayer game to be beaten when the hardest game difficulty or mode for said game is beaten; most game difficulties/modes are very easy in comparison to beating the hardest difficulty of a multiplayer game.
>>403253125AoS is pretty much the only one that's competitive
>>403252924>It's easy to just slap 13813031913 frame perfect inputs in a row and call it the hardest thing ever.That's the problem with these kind of arguments and also why I mentioned the doujin/indie scenes for those kind of titles earlier. It's simply way harder to make a shmup than it is to slap together a an impossible chart for kshoot or throw a couple hundred inverts in a row with no saves in RMJ. Nobody is ever going to be able to complete them legit, no matter how many tens of thousands of hours they put in, so does it still count?
>>403252669I had no idea this game was so elegant. It's like I've touched god.
>>403244207lolthis list tho
>>403253460Play the game bro, it's a truly excellent platformer, you won't be disappointed.Also the regular stages aren't like Yotta, so you don't have to worry about ball busting difficulty throughout a regular playthrough.Dustforce also has a 10/10 OST as well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXH5G_bqrlchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnsCuUA1pg0
>>403253180And yet, there are examples in this thread of single player games designed to push the envelope of difficulty, that is designed to be only accessible to the top 0.01% or less of players, in the same way pro players do with competitive multiplayer games. You're not necessarily wrong that multiplayer games are more difficult, but your reasoning is flawed.
>>403252249>shmup segments>rhythm segmentsThat doesn't make them shmups or rhythm games. And since you said there are tons of super easy ones, please name some. I'm genuinely interested.>Kids gamesWell, duh. Kids games cannot be counted because they're easy by definition.>some super easy game means that another super hard game is easy?That's why I said on average, anon.Platformers is the only one you got right. There are many easy platformers and a few really difficult ones, but on average it's an easier genre.
>>403253824Also waiting warmly for the names of these so called easy shmups.
>>403247124Try other Touhou games, EoSM doesn't show your hitbox so it can be harder for new players
>>403252249Do you not know what the word "average" means?
>>403254003Looking at the average is stupid. It makes no sense when you are talking about the top of the top, the highest peak.You are asking about CEO salaries and then for whatever reason bringing the average pay of the industry they are a part of into play.It's nonsense.
>>403254184If you don't look at the average, then you can't really have a most difficult genre. Every genre becomes neck-to-neck in terms of difficulty, because there will always be a game within every genre that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase was able to beat.>>403253809Yes there are very difficult singleplayer games, and the far majority of these do not push that envelope of difficulty. Multiplayer games necessarily do, because you are competing against other players with a scaling difficulty level.
>>403253976Tyrian or just about any Euroshmup.
>>403254184>stupid allegoryThe question was not which genre has the hardest game, but which genre is the hardest. So your allegory is wrong. The question is, which job/field has the highest salary and that means on average, not the CEO or entry level pay.
>>403254545See the fucking OP.>>403242198>What is the most difficult genre of video games at TOP-LEVEL PLAY?Emphasis mine. Because apparently you can't read.
>>403254184The subject is most difficult GENRE, not most difficult game. By your logic, someone could make a mobile match threes game that's stupidly gimmickly hard and boom, now the match three genre is harder than shmups and fighting games. You're a moron.>You are asking about CEO salaries and then for whatever reason bringing the average pay of the industry they are a part of into play.No, he literally asked for the fucking average. Did you even read the OP? Do you know what "genre" means? Are you actually retarded?
>>403254415>because there will always be a game within every genre that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase was able to beat.Which is why logically we just need to count which genre has the most games that are technically possible but humanly impossible to beat. Now considering I can make a platformer like that within 5s in gamemaker it's pretty self evident who would win :^}
>>403254782Top-level-play means you pick the hardest difficulty and go for actually mastering the game, you mongoloid.
>>403254782>top-level play = top-level gameyou are retarded
This thread was a lot better when it wasn't about semantics.
>>403255019>Now considering I can make a platformer like that within 5s in gamemaker it's pretty self evident who would winI think a game still has to be beatable by someone without requiring special knowledge (e.g. the game can't just be guess a number somewhere within 1 googolplex to win) to count, hence why I said "that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase was able to beat".
>>403254442Yeeeah, if you count all those arcade shooters from the early nineties then sure.
>>403255318>by someone without requiring special knowledge Define "special knowledge". If you are talking about genre specific knowledge then that's retarded, since you are basically just asking what the hardest game a random casual can beat is. Harder platformers have a metric fuckton of depth to them, many requiring intrinsic knowledge of the engine and how to manipulate it in your favor, they are often just as much puzzle games where you are trying to solve a mathematical equation as they are skill checks that require extremely precise inputs and consistency.
>>403255209I'm struggling to understand where the disconnect is happening here. That's exactly what it is. Games that can only be played and mastered by players who are the masters of their respective genres are representative of top-level play.
>>403255597I mean special knowledge, as in someone could not derive it without having to look it up or be the creator of said game. For example, a platformer that plays perfectly normal but only gives you a victory green by pressing 'a'+'b'+'c'+'r'+'t'+'n'+'9'+'2' in sequence within 5 seconds after beating the final boss would be considered special knowledge. This is merely a means of countering anyone that says "but I could just make a game that is technically possible but virtually impossible".
>>403247351X4 are literal babbytier of gamesthey're all filled with extremely simple mechanics that are just hidden behind some retarded shit and then called "deep gameplay"
>>403255901>This is merely a means of countering anyone that says "but I could just make a game that is technically possible but virtually impossible".That's not the kind of thing I was talking about, though I was just fucking around in the first place. I was thinking more along the lines of simply placing fifty jumps like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKMgHCmtxac in a row, sure you could technically beat it, it's easily possible for a TAS if the guy making it has the necessary knowledge. No human is ever going to beat it though, while not technically impossible that jump in the video on its own already requires around 20 frame perfect inputs and 2 cancels during, and a specific align and subpixel string you need to be on before starting the jump. Getting it once can easily take an extremely high level player dozens of hours, you are never going to be able to pull it off twice in a row even though it's "technically" possible, a human is simply never going to get perfect enough.
>>403255868>I'm struggling to understand where the disconnect is happening here.You not understanding what the word "average" meansSee >>403254826, but you conveniently didn't reply to that so you're probably selectively ignoring it anyways
>>403256364>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKMgHCmtxac>tfw you will never be so happy about winning at video games you reach orgasm
>>403256802If I spent 40 hours to nail one fucking jump I think I would probably just feel extreme regret that I wasted so much time.
>>403242198>>403244207>shmupsYeah, right - most probably the hardest.>rhythmRaw memorization and no other skill involved. It's literally a sequence of buttons you need to learn. Absolutely 0 randomness.Difficulty of those is the same as memorizing a poem for school.>RTSUsually they have that one broken strat, but otherwise alright.>RoguelikesHaven't played much of them to say>PlatformersShould be higher, even if most games of this genre aren't hard, there are still lots of genuinely hard platformers.>Action RPGMaybe I only played easy ones, but this should be lower.>inb4 Dark Souls>FPSWhy not including TPS too? Sure anyways, well placed>Rogue-liteNever played one idk.>Fighting It entirely depends on your opponent, so I don't see the point of classifying this other than shitting on FGC. Both skill ceiling and floor vary, but usually are higher than average.If you only take AI in consideration, then yes.>MOBAsStill depend on opponent, should be 2 tiers higher because it still has some floor and ceiling. You are baiting here
>>403256590You seem to think I'm >>403254184. I'm not. My position is that the average is patently irrelevant when discussing examples of top-level play and I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Hypothetical uber-difficult games would only qualify if someone (besides the developer) can play and master said game, in which case they would qualify as examples of top-level play and therefore push the envelope of that genre. In fact, we've seen just as much happen repeatedly in Shmups, rhythm games, fangames, and probably even in genres I'm not aware of.
>>403244207Where's aviasims?Where's Aurora4X?
>>403245520I never finished Dustforce because I'm bad, but it is a good game
>>403257152Pretty much all the proper roguelikes are 50% gameknowledge, 50% sheer luck. There is zero mechanical skill involved so it really just depends how you want to define difficulty I guess. Are Nethack&co hard to finish? Most definitely, yes.Can even a complete newcomer to the genre beat it on their first run if they have a wiki open next to them and good luck? Also a yes.
>>403257152>>rhythm>Raw memorization and no other skill involved. It's literally a sequence of buttons you need to learn. Absolutely 0 randomness.Ignoring the difficulty associated with timing precision and the execution itself, games like beatmania IIDX have a "Random" option that scramble the chart. As it turns out, a vast majority of world records are set with this option, and a vast majority of even half decent players leave that option on by default when playing, since playing the same chart more than once is boring.There are memotrash music games, but good games have top players setting world record tier scores on sightread.
>>403244207>schmupsjust dodging bullets can't be that hard once you learn the patternsI don't see why playing an RTS at a high level is below that
>>403257931Timing precision and execution in a rhythm game are still part of raw memorization because again, each song is a straight sequence. Timings will be always the exact same.Beatmania IIDX is one game in front of the entire genre, still doesn't deserve being that high in the tier list.>>403257937Because you are only playing Bullet Hell, and usually not even those have static patterns all the time.Shmups covers the entire genre, think about Gradius.
>>403250567>I was talking about averages because the picture's clearly not talking about the hardest games in the genreI thought I already explained that it's incredible retarded. People discuss indivual games because it;s the only thing that's not incredible retarded. Discussing the 'average' would basically requiring knowing the game library of every fucking computer OS, console, the complete arcade history going back decades. I've been playing platformers forever and I have no fucking clue what the 'average' is, there's probably no one on the planet that does. Because it would totally useless to contemplate even if you did have that absurd level of game knowledge. Sometimes discussing the average state on a particular set of years or console is useful.>It's not like this is some ultra-serious discussion to determine the merits of each genre once and for allThis literally what you've been doing. I legitimately think you do not know what the word 'average' means. Either that you basically never play video games and never observed how vastly different genre become over time. If it's neither of those I'm hoping you're very young which would sort of forgive you being this stupid.
>>403258259Alright man, that's cool, you win. I don't feel like arguing at 5 in the morning.
I can't speak for top level play, but as someone with a fucked up wrist I think shmups are easier to play than RTS or FPS.
>>403255272It's dumb but it could be worse. This thread reminds me of latenight /v/ before /pol/r9k/-tier memeposting.
>>403258234Even in music games where there is no randomization, memorization is almost never a notable factor of playing the game outside of a few gimmick situations. Again, skilled players will set excellent scores on sightreads, and it'd be silly to think that people actually memorize thousands of charts that contain thousands of notes each. There are tournaments where the last song played by the finalists is a brand new unlock that nobody has heard or seen before. For example:https://youtu.be/jku5uBue4Cc?t=18m49s
>>403256364Is there any way to get the music from those I wanna be games?
It is very subjective from person to person what genre you find the hardest.I have never beaten any 2d platformer because I find them too hard, but beaten many rhythm games.Action RPG's like Gothic are babby tier for me but apparently not for some people.
>>403259202>gimmick situationsLiterally 99% of the playerbase plays a track until it wasn't memorized. You are also overestimating how hard is to memorize a track unless it's literally your first time playing a rhythm game and you immediately jump on the hardest track and difficulty.Sightreads are indeed a challenge, but still doesn't deserve being so high in the list.
>>403252464I'm glad someone else brought up racing; i love racing games but am average to bad at the more serious ones and am amazed at the laptimes people pull out of the same cars on the same loop of tarmac.
>>403259752>Literally 99% of the playerbase plays a track until it wasn't memorized.Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Please reword.>You are also overestimating how hard is to memorize a trackI think you're overestimating the usefulness or impact of memorization on games like IIDX or pop'n. I would even say the same for DDR if high level charts weren't often so full of speed changes and stops, which is what I would file under gimmicks.If it's just memorization, why is that a top 1% player on a sightread will beat any top 5% player no matter how much time that top 5% player has had to memorize a song. Memorization is an incredibly small factor in top level music game play.
>>403260429You are singling out IIDX to speak for the entire genre. One hard game isn't enough to drag the entire genre at one tier higher
>>403259752It's memorization in the same vein that you are memorizing jump timings in bullshit hard platformers or bullet patterns in insane bullet hell games. You get a feel and muscle memory for the harder patterns for sure, but there is no way you can get anyone to just play this shit blind because "they have it memorized". Specific tracks someone has been grinding for a long time, maybe, but that's the exception to the rule. And even then, just because you can recite a chart from memory doesn't mean you can execute it whatsoever, the mechanical requirements for the harder ones gets pretty insane.
>>403242198Shmups but sure as shit not Ikaruga. Some fighting games like MB are also that complex.
>>403242198Multiplayer games are only as hard as your opponent. For single player it's probably STGs yeah.
>>403260719You're correct that I am placing a lot of weight on top bemani games to be representative of a genre. A lot of games are trash, so I'd rather think about the best games and not all of them. But I still think the example of 1% vs 5% applies to a majority of even the shittier music games.You seem to rate STGs highly (and I do as well), but I can guarantee a 1% player trying to sightread a shmup would get completely demolished by a 10% player that had access to that same shmup for a mere 24 hours.I just don't think using the possibility of memorization is a particularly useful way to judge the difficulty of something, specially if said hypothetical memorization is not widely practiced because it's literally not useful.
>>403244207Why do shmups need more skill than a moba? What differentiate the two?
>>403257152>Why not including TPS too?lamo, he's talking about golden age and silver age shooters, not whichever consoleshit TPS you're thinking about
>>403259202Is it wrong that I don't find this video particularly impressive?Good piano players, or worse, accordion players, can execute a music sheet upon seeing it with way harsher "mechanical" requirements.
>>403245492So in basketball and track and field, that doesn't make them easy.
I like STGs but I can't stick with them. I inevitably end up getting distracted by some other game once making survival progress gets too monotonous and forget all about the shooter.
>>403257152>shumps>not raw memorizationYou never played any. Here's how shmupfags practice>watch youtube video>do exactly what it doesHow does that takes IQ or skill?
>>403262431Here's your evidencehttps://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=34497By all means, read the fucking pdf and see what a world record holder advocates as practice.
>>403262119That's not a super hard chart or anything, the point that anon was making was just that it's something they were seeing and hearing for the very first time and had to fully sightread.Also unlike you I actually play piano, I'm not particularly amazing or anything, just decent enough, but I can tell you you are full of shit. Sightreading and perfectly playing notes you've never seen before is straight up impossible for all but maybe the top 0.000000001%. Sightreading is ridiculously difficult for instruments in general and piano has it a lot harder than most others. You simply can't look far enough ahead to be capable of planning out your stance on the fly and any sheet more complex than Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is impossible to just "wing it".
>>403262534>Implying everything is a fixed patternSee >>403262431
>>403262369>memorizing things is not part of building up skill
Are there shmups on PC that play like the touhou scene games?StB, DS and ISC are very fun, I wish there were more like these, touhou or not.
>>403262923There's that Yuyuko rape shmup where you use her gigantic boobs to shoot bad guysShe always loses
>>403262369>watch youtube video>do exactly what it doesSo easy, right? Same with games like this >>403256802Just watch it and do what he does. Takes absolutely no skill. EZPZ.
>>403262923Len'en.It's like Touhou but harder, has some excellent characters and music and a surprisingly great lore if you actually take the time to read about it.
the hardest thing anyone can do in videogames is play against me and my little brother in any cod game in a team death match. We will fucking pwn you
I'm not sure how this thread has gone on so long without mentioning high level Tetris.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU8UNDVZNQY&t=221sThe skillset that puzzle games exercise is pretty focused and limited, but the genre is probably underrated.
>>403263298t. asshurt 2hu fan
>>403263464Go back to your subreddit circlejerk about genderless abortion of characters and shameless copycat series
>>403263381Because high level Tetris isn't actually all that impressive compared to some of the really high level shit you have in other genres.It's 99% pattern recognition, the mechanical requirements are very easy. Your limit is pretty much entirely how fast your brain parses the patterns coming at you, if you want to compare it to rhythm games they have the same thing going conceptually but add actual execution requirements ontop of it.
>>403263205>Len'en.There are games like the scenes games in len'en? wtf
>>403246296I would genuinely enjoy watching over confident people play fighting games locally by button mashing and see where they get.
>>403263530Never been to reddit you crying little bitch. Go back to MoTK and rp as your favorite 2hu character you retard.
>>403245492>niggers rule fighing ganes>only asians and non niggers keep winning evo
>>403264204Way to show your newfaggotry>>>/r/eddit
>>403264213>implying>implying pic related isn't the king of the fighting game scene
>>403244207>genres i like are high skill ceiling>genres i dont like are low skill triteYeah great list you fucking nullo
>>403263736>Because high level Tetris isn't actually all that impressive compared to some of the really high level shit you have in other genres.In theory everything is easy because you just need to press the right buttons at the right time. Just.
>>403251819I feel like this community has lost the point of the genre somewhere.
>>403262534So they really are autists that reduce videogames to watching spoilers and practicing with savestate cheats.
>>403264770>>403251819The screen he posted looks just barely possible, but only if the game uses A/D aligns and whatever is hiding behind the TAS titlecard isn't dumb as fuck. Dunno if anyone's invested some serious time into whatever that game is but you'd have to be a special kind of autistic to decide you want to beat that screen. It probably looks hard to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at, but you have no idea just how bad things really are. It would take you hours to complete using TAS tools, doing it legit I can't even fathom how long you'd spend on even just the plane climb on the left. If there isn't a save hiding under the titlecard there's a pretty good shot you could be putting in hundreds of hours without even getting any progress, even if you are a god at these games.
not even joking, IIDX
>>403249203Vertical scrolling rythm games are generally harder than depth scrolling because the screen refresh rate is only 60hz
>>403266493I know about the IWBTG fangame world. I was mainly commenting on the point that needle hell doesn't really capture the spirit of the original which was never meant to be a serious platformer game.It was a game of cheap punches combined with nostalgic jokes of old videogames, but then you have people actually being snooty and actively criticizing the original as a platformer. Earlier fangames follow this format, but even those get criticized on their quality as a platformer. A scale which I can't quite identify the theory behind when it comes to what they consider the pinnacle of the IWBTG fangame genre.There are now fangames wholly without any sort of videogame references trying to refine these qualities of what they consider excellent or in some cases "hard". Needle Hell games I find particularly bewildering. IWBTG was imitating Nintendo hard which is quite a bit different from the repeated constant frame-perfect, starting position perfect, and complexly shaped jumps of those sorts of games. As other people have noted, it's not exactly difficult to make something difficult. Needle Hell games are a litmus test of the IWBTG engine, but they lack any real essence of the original and are a niche experiment that has taken a portion of the community.I'm really just ranting at this point.
>>403245492>Niggers rule genre>KOF/GG/Uniel/Tekken have almost no blacks>Its literally just MVCI/Shitfighter that have blacks all over the place and until SFV they couldn't win besides Snakeeyez.Keep spreading false information a darkie is rare in the GG community.
>>403267565Well, the original WAS pretty shit. It has a few really funny traps, dracula's glass for example, but the game itself just isn't particularly good.It was mostly fun for the novelty of it back then, but now there is hundreds of trap games that do what IWBTG tried to do except much better. There's just not much reason to even play it anymore, it's a broken mess with nigh on unplayable physics if you've touched literally any fangame made over the last 5 or 6 years.I don't really play a whole lot of them anymore but I really like what people did with fangames, saying they are missing the point is pretty retarded when the singular thing that unites all those games are the most basic movement physics and for at least a lot of them the kid's sprite.If you want to play adventure games there's dozens of very good ones you can pick from. Want metroidvanias? Go ahead. Want something like the original that takes you on a trip down memory lane and references shitloads of classic games? More of those than you can count. Just because a lot of the people that have been a part of the community for years now slowly drift towards more and more challenging stuff to test their knowledge and skills at doesn't mean you have to play it. That's the entire beauty of it; there's currently 6536 games listed on delicious fruit with more being added every day, as long as you like platformers I guarantee you there's at least a few dozen for every possible skill level and genre you can have lots of fun with.
>>403268496That's the sort of snootiness I was talking about. As well as that focus on the basic engine. Nigh-unplayable physics?I have played some decent fangames as well as many bad ones, but I keep finding it weird how the community has become so critical and serious about what started as one of the silliest meta-games made.
>>403269221>Nigh-unplayable physics?Play anything on yutuu and then try to go back to vanilla IWBTG straight after. It's frustrating. I like IWBTG, I used to speedrun it for fuck's sake, but it's simply not good. You can like something that isn't good, you know?
>>403269221Kayin himself said IWBTG is lazily programmed and a steaming pile of shit my man
>shmups>worthy of most difficult genreDude just memo lmao
>>403269378I think we're looking at this from different angles. You seem to have a standard for playability. Whereas I have a standard for what could possibly be considered unplayable.IWBTG doesn't come anywhere particularly close to the worst I've played which I think encompasses obscure platformers which have very poor block collision that simultaneously requires precision jumps and drops. Though I think that disconnect might also have to do with the fact that IWBTG fangames excessively rely on extremely tight physics. Since Kid is basically a quarter of a square large, his problems with the basic 1-block ceiling jump and 1-block space drop are diminished. However the game forces precision spike jumps a few times which I guess might be where your ire comes from. The fangames have physics that can handle those sorts of jumps as their baseline since they're a lot more particular about those sorts of jumps.The games I'm thinking about have ceiling bumps due to the character being as tall as a block with jumps that literally come out of 1-block tall gaps as well as drops that require dropping in a 1-tile wide gap which your character has to fidget around until they finally drop into it. Like a not entirely obscure example is Eversion which had some annoying platform if you were trying to get all the gems. There's even worse if we leave the 2D platformer genre. Where we get games that are literally made hard to control like "Simulators" and QWOP/Getting Over It. However even in the 2D platformer genre, the original IWBTG is far from anywhere close to the primary trait I consider hard to control or play with. Slippery physics. The Kid doesn't slide unless it's one of those fangames implementing ice physics. Some games however have slipperiness as a matter of course. Even then though, that slipperiness is something to be overcome.
>>403251325Go play wizardry.
>>403246103>Playing on easyWhy do YOU do this?
Completing all of Touhou's extras has been one of the most boner-inducing gaming experiences of my life. I needed months of practice and getting gud to just beat them, and according to >>403252190 I'm just at baby-tier deep in the genre.It's not surprising to me that people go full autistic about both 2hoes and SHMUP's in general considering the raw ammount of dopamine released just for completing the fucking games.After that, it made sense that SHMUP enthusiasts consider most other genres to be shit because literally none of them are able to provide them the satisfaction of clearing a shmup