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I really like the first NES Zelda, but I can't help but think that it's sort of a failure in terms of its design.

You take a game like Super Mario Bros. and it has held up amazingly well in terms of design. Anyone with any skill set can sit down, start up Level 1-1 and learn the basics in five minutes or less, with the implication that they'll improve their skill set over time. It's simple.

I know Zelda is its own thing and a totally different genre, but in replaying it I can't help but think that this ideology of a game where swapping secrets with your friends just guarantees that your game will feel dated not only in terms of visual/audio presentation but in gameplay as well.

There is so much obscure, cryptic stuff in this game that it's a frustration in of itself just to figure out what step one really is. I know that's the point, but all these years later down the road that directionlessness just seems sort of boggling. I know the American manual had a map (albiet a very poor one) and the game isn't that hard to figure out after a lot of tinkering, but the fact that someone can't really get full enjoyment out of the game without looking stuff up or posting on a forum kind of disappoints me.

I'm not ragging on the gameplay or anything like that, I'm having a blast, but the idea of not having these resources and having to load up the same screen every time just to burn individual bushes makes me realize that maybe at its core philosophy, the original NES Zelda (and Zelda II to an extent) is not very fun.
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You would really really hate Tower of Druaga
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Metroid is kind of the same deal.
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>>3868038
Metroid you can crawl around and figure things out very soon after an upgrade.

LOZ nes is more like you can crawl around for 40 hours before you locate dungeon 1.

Op's right, the primary storyline should be easy to discover and follow but the advantages, good items and other stuff is fine to hide.
They literally hid the storyline like it was a cicada puzzle.
Seasons and ages, for example, are mind blowingly cryptic but never took hours to progress one step because of clues and directions people threw your way. They are the correct balance of "holy shit what the fuck do I do" and "this is easier than learning ABCs with big bird."

Loz nes is literally impossible without a guide. I think Nintendo was just conspiring to sell more Nintendo power subscriptions and holy shit did that game do the trick.
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>>3868051
>finding the first dungeon is hard

lol, no
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>>3868051
>LOZ nes is more like you can crawl around for 40 hours before you locate dungeon 1.
Oh come on.
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>>3868051
>mfw the maps of zelda help me conquer in a hour
Metroid was definitely more my jam back then though. Samus just moves so much faster than Link it makes the world smaller from scale.
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>>3867963
games used to be played by children with a sense of wonder. now they are played by manbabies who want to be spoonfed an idiotic story because they are too simple minded for literature. you and your kind ruined video games
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>>3867963
can someone remind me what parts of zelda 2 are cryptic
from what I remember everything you need to do is told to you by one villager or another
even stuff like crouching and slashing at the table I'm pretty sure was hinted at by an npc
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>>3868069
"It's dangerous to go alone, take this!"

Literature?

The manbabies you speak of are above you and they all used a guide for this game and come on the internet to pretend they don't look anything up.
This game is unbeatable by the "kids with a sense of adventure" you speak of.

The people ruining video games are the ones whose nostalgia blinds them from the catastrophic flaws of the NES library.

No one plays it these days because it's gay as fuck, there are less than 20 playable titles and you have to resort to google 15 times an hour while playing it.
Having to burn one specific bush when there are 20,000 sprites that are the exact same as it is a major fucking design flaw, admit it, the 80s were the dark ages of video gaming.
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>>3868084
Basically nothing, it's one of the easiest games to figure out in the series. Only semi-vague thing I can think of is that it tells you to look for a cabin in the forest but it doesn't tell you where, meaning you just kind of have to walk around until you find it.
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if you don't like Legend of Zelda, it's because you're unworthy of it. that's not the game's fault.
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>>3868186
even so, I found that cabin on my own just by exploring the nearby forest. there are a bunch of pre-set encounters in the area, which is a clue that the cabin is nearby.
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>>3868096
>whose nostalgia blinds them from the catastrophic flaws of the NES library.
>No one plays it these days because it's gay as fuck, there are less than 20 playable titles and you have to resort to google 15 times an hour while playing it.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees this. The NES is really not that good of a console when it comes down to it, especially considering all the SMB games got ported to the SNES anyway as much better versions(unless you're a purist). A lot of those games are just missing too much polish to be boosted up to that top-tier.
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>>3868203
>better versions
bruz come on maybe smb1 is better but smb3 is just harder to play than the nes version
like there's some lag in the controls or something I can't put my finger on it exactly
>>3868195
yeah there's a vertical sequence of tiles that pretty much tell you there is something North of each encounter and it's easy enough to stumble upon them by just playing the game
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>>3867963
>this ideology of a game where swapping secrets with your friends

Good thing that was never part of the game design? The first quest pretty much spoonfeeds you where to go, and the second quest (like all EX modes in games) is designed for autists who want to systematically burn every bush and bomb every wall.
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>>3868226
there are definite issues with the physics in all-stars. in particular, it messes up your momentum when you hit a brick in smb1. but in general, the handling is not 1:1 with the nes versions.
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If you can't understand the way the incomplete guide got you rolling with the game's conventions or how the secrets and playground discussion created buzz then you don't really understand Zelda but that's fine. Zelda wasn't made for you, it was made for me. If you don't enjoy it at all it doesn't cost Nintendo one cent.
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>>3868234
If that was never part of the game design, then Miyamoto failed his goal of designing it that way.
"In the initial game designs, the player would start the game with the sword already in their inventory. According to Miyamoto, those in Japan were confused and had trouble finding their way through the multiple path dungeons. Rather than listening to the complaints, Miyamoto took away the sword, forcing players to communicate with each other and share their ideas to find the various secrets hidden in the game. This was a new form of game communication, and in this way, Zelda became the inspiration for something very different: Animal Crossing."
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>>3868068
FINALLY, SOMEONE LET ME OUT OF MY CAGE
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>>3868312
Time, for me means nothing
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>>3868096
>>3868203

greetings, a generation Z kid who only knows the NES because of the games that are featured on the NES classic.

For fuck's sake, kid. There's a thread on this board filled with recommendation pictures, one of them being a NES one. There are so many NES games you could try out (for free even, INB4 "lol emulation is inaccurate and doesn't feel real"), not even limited to action based sidescrollers.

Also, are you guys seriously having trouble finding the first dungeon? When I first played Zelda 1 8 years ago I didn't even try my best looking for it and I found it in 10 minutes. Sure some things are pretty hard to find in this game but the first dungeon?? This thread better be bait because if you guys are actually serious then I really feel bad for you.
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>>3868250
That's retarded. Literally nobody had to beg for help to get through a dungeon in LoZ. The only thing that could possibly cause you trouble is finding the dungeon entrances in the 2nd quest. That's it.
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>>3868730
I know, right? 40 hours to get to the first dungeon? For fuck's sake, git gud.

Or not even good. Get to the level of a 5 year old.
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I fucking hate millennial crybaby shits so much.
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>>3867963
>>3868051
>literally impossible without a guide
I beat that shit without a guide when I was 10. Did I get 100% of the treasures? No, but what does it matter?

It seems like the rise of collectathons brought with it this idea that you NEED to acquire absolutely everything on the map before finishing the game to consider it "complete." That's fine for collectathons, but that doesn't need to be universal to all games. LoZ leaving so much hidden and unsaid encouraged the player to explore the world and shape the trajectory of the adventure on their own, which was precisely the idea of the game.

If you refuse to deviate from the suggested dungeon order and approach the game like a staunch completionist, the fault lies on you, not the design of the game.
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>>3869260
OP here, my complaint isn't that the game forces you to explore, just that to explore *and* play the game at a decent level of difficulty, makes the game (in my opinion) less fun.

I see a lot of posts on this thread saying I don't 'like' the game. That is false - I do like the game, especially the dungeons (and especially with the hindsight of knowing all the shops, secrets, etc.) but the dated 'social' design doesn't hold up, and that makes it one of the series' weaker entries.
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>>3869295
I'm not a millennial. I first played LoZ in 1989. Talking with people is outdated game design, because expecting to swap secrets 30 years after the game's release is unrealistic. It's short-sighted. It makes the game great in 1986...but in 2017, not so much.
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>>3869295
>I WANT TO KILL EVERY SINGLE MILLENNIAL

Literally 90% of this site is millennials. This millennial hate meme makes zero fucking sense.

Are you underage, dude?
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>>3869290
But again, I don't find it necessary to trade secrets with people. The hidden shops and treasures should be a neat discovery, not a necessary chore (which it becomes only if you treat it as such).

I guess it depends on what defines a Zelda game for you. But Zelda I operates a lot differently from most other Zeldas, so judging it within the same framework you would a 3D Zelda doesn't make much sense.
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>>3869303
Theres fucking internet in 2017
That youre using right now
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>>3867963
>but in replaying it I can't help but think that this ideology of a game where swapping secrets with your friends just guarantees that your game will feel dated not only in terms of visual/audio presentation but in gameplay as well.

It's only a failure if you see it being a product of it's time as a negative. This was a time when there wasn't an internet to look everything up, so it created a kind of meta game around the game.

Games like Simon's Quest, you almost needed to be in the know in a way to finish. I remember having to ask around in class what the fuck to do. This was a big part of fighting games when they caught on. There was a meta game around learning what everyone could do. And I think in both cases that was an intentional part of their design.

But I also don't think that makes them bad, that the experience of figuring out the game is ephemeral and a collective experience that happens and is gone, but making way for the next one.
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>>3869313
Come on, man, you know that the stream of release is about a trillion times faster googling online than schoolyard chatter.

>>3869403
Even so, I suspect this 'meta game' (good term) wore thin after a few years. It's not just a 1986 vs. 2017 thing, it literally puts a very short time limit on one of the game's primary design points.

The fighting game companies caught on pretty quick, and started putting the movesets on the cabinets if I recall, so I'm not sure if that's comparable.
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>>3869307
This. That dude seriously needs to grow the fuck up, no matter what his age is.
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>>3869409
>Even so, I suspect this 'meta game' (good term) wore thin after a few years.

There are still lots of games with interesting meta games like this. Fighters are a perfect big example these days. The debates about character tiers and match ups are endless. Also the Souls games and pic related.

>It's not just a 1986 vs. 2017 thing, it literally puts a very short time limit on one of the game's primary design points.

It does, it's whether you see that as a bad thing or not.
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>>3867963
Zelda I and II are chores to play. Back in the day they were good games because there were no better games at the time. Now, the only people who like them are the blind nostalgic losers who find joy in spending 15 minutes to find the one out of ~20000 bushes leading to a house. The only NES games worthy of playing today are SMB, SMB2 and SMB3, which have been ported over to the SNES as Super Mario All-Stars. Unless you like the old 8-bit graphics of the early Mario games, the NES wil serve you no purpose and will bring you no enjoyment.
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I remember the only dungeon that nobody told you where it was was the last one, or the last two maybe. The others were all explicitly told by NPCs, at least in the japanese text. So besides the location of the final dungeon, the only other cryptic secrets were some life extensions.
It helps if you draw your own map. In old games like these you were expected to take notes. It's not bad design, just part of the game.
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>>3869457
I don't know, man, I've been playing DQ1 lately and having plenty of fun, or at least I *thought* I was having fun because apparently I'm just imagining it.
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>>3869464
>It's not bad design, just part of the game.
A player's notes aren't a part of the game, so it's bad game design to rely on that.
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>>3869457
1/10, made me reply
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>>3869487
What? I mean who are you to decide what is and what isn't part of a game you didn't make? This is almost as retarded as if I said "Duck Hunt is badly designed because it relies on the Zapper and the Zapper isn't part of the game".
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>>3869474
DQ1 isn't bad, but every other game after it is so much better.
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>>3869487
That sounds like you only enjoy baby games.
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>>3868084
Finding the fucking hidden new kasuto town or whatever it was was bullshit. You get a hint about its general area but in other parts of the game when you find a cabin or whatever in the woods you enter it as soon as you're on the square. Hidden Kasuto is the only time in the gane you need to knock the trees of the square in front of you down with the hammer (which the game never tells you how to do, though it might have been in the manul) before youre able to enter the town. Thats some fucking cryptic bullshit.

As for the mirror, an npc mentions she lost her mirror. The only clue that its in that house is that the house is empty while every other house thus far has had stuff in it. To investigate you must crouch near the table and press a. Pressing a while standing isnt enough. Being empty and thinking you should investigate because of that is really the only hint for what you should do. But the life spell is completely optional, and being empty is KIND OF a hint. I can see someone going either way on how fair this set up is. Personally I dont mind it.

But new kasuto town is fucking bullshit.
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>>3867963
The biggest problem with LoZ is the slow screen transitions. Somebody should make a rom hack to speed them up.
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I dont think its a failure of design since the social aspect of zelda was quite succesful, though I do agree that it inherently dates the game.

If I imagine dark souls after a time when servers have shut down and there arent even any in game notes left by other players, trying to play that game without ever referring to help online would make the game a lot less enjoyable. Not impossible by any means, but a lot more tedious in certain areas.

Thats kind of the spot I see Zelda 1 in now. The social aspect of the game is basically dead, if you want to trade secrets you really have to go online, and anything you've discovered on your own will already have been found, so at that point youre basically just looking up help and may as well resort to a walkthrough.

For most of the game this is not an issue, and I think many people blow it out of proportion. But when youve only got one or two dungeons left to go, you could totally spend way more time than its worth to you just wandering around trying to find it. Zelda 1 was absolutely the kind of game wgere you could get stuck for months because you havent found one specific thing. Im not just referring to finding dungeons, some bombable walls in dungeons need to get blown up and those arent always clear.

I still consider it one of the best games ever, but if someone plays it for the first time today and they dont know the context they should approach the game in its perfectly fair for them to get frustrated after a certain point.
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>>3869554
Nethack 4?
I mostly play the original which got an update to 3.6 recently, relatively speaking
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>>3867963
The game came out in 1986. 30 years ago. What the fuck you expecting

It was still mindblowing back in the 80s
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>>3867963
>waterfall is flowing up

How does someone fuck up a gif this badly?
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>>3871306
It's a top-down game.
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where are you guys getting the swap secrets with friends stuff being required to beat the game? pretty sure we all just beat it ourselves or didnt back then. youre supposed to take notes and explore and figure it all out yourself. if you need to involve your friends to make it fun then just go play a multiplayer arcade game with friends.
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>>3871375
Meow!
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>>3869584
You're told new kasuto is in a forst to the east, and the hammer knocking down trees is in the manual. Once I made it to that eastern forest glen, I knew kasuto had to be there. I started knocking down trees after stepping in every patch didn't work
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Before I ever played this game I knew which bushes to burn for the best prices on items, that you play the flute at the pond for level 7, where to bomb to find a heart container, etc. All that shit is just common knowledge at this point, you really have to be raised on the Moon not to know that stuff.
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>>3871385
So you're happy the game was spoiled for you long before playing it for the the first time?
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>>3871385
Maybe you but not anyone getting back into Zelda because of BOTW.
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>>3871416
Are there actual people playing this because of Botw?
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>>3867963
I played Zelda for the first time ever in 2016, and I didn't need to look anything up to finish it. I didn't even know you could bomb walls till maybe the third or fourth dungeon. Pic related, my notes
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>>3871451
Absolutely, since the devs mentioned that they meant for BotW to be closer to the original Zelda than to the modern ones.
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>>3868051
>LOZ nes is more like you can crawl around for 40 hours before you locate dungeon 1.
Fucking faggot, it takes 30 seconds to get there. The map isn't that big, and at the beginning you are cut off from a portion of it. It may take someone maybe at most 5 minutes to find it if they have never played the game before.

>Loz nes is literally impossible without a guide
I did it without a guide. In November, I beat the game without ever playing it before. It took me maybe 10 hours because I couldn't find Level-7. That's it.
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>>3869290
Yeah and your opinion is shit. You must fucking suck at everything else if you can't multi-task.

Kill all the enemies on the screen and then look for secrets, how hard is that moron?
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>>3869457
I don't know man, I just played and completed Zelda 1 a week ago for the first time (blind playthrough only using a guide maybe twice)

I thought it was pretty decent. I'm going to play Zelda 2 next.
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>>3869498
Not him, but needing someone's notes to progress in the game is bad game design.

I had to do this when finding Level-7. The only complaint I have, but I still love Zelda 1
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>>3871451
I am playing all the games while I save up for a Switch

Those sneaky japs are clever
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>>3868753
>>3869260
>>3871385
>>3871529
how did you guys know to play the flute to get to level 7 though, without a guide or someone telling you before hand?
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If you can't at least find and beat the first few dungeons yourself, then you aren't thinking or trying hard enough.
Or, you're just too stupid. Sorry m8
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>>3869457
I never owned an NES and even I know you're full of shit.
There are plenty of NES games still worth playing today.
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>>3869303
Is it really that outdated when talking about the original LoZ is exactly what we are doing?

I get that this isn't the playgrounds and buses Miyamoto envisioned but who could have predicted the internet? Design that happens to evolve with technology is unintended genius my dude
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>>3872420
<

>>3872447
Additionally, if you design a game based around how it will be analyzed twenty years later when it's a classic it's all but guaranteed it won't be.
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>>3867963
>There is so much obscure, cryptic stuff in this game that it's a frustration in of itself just to figure out what step one really is.
Not really. Step two is move into that door you see.
Step one was to read the fucking manual which told you to move into that door you see, then told you where the first three dungeons were and gave you like a third of the overworld on a map and told you most of what you needed to do to find shit.

>but the fact that someone can't really get full enjoyment out of the game without looking stuff up or posting on a forum kind of disappoints me.
They can. Especially with Zelda of all things. There are some pretty obtuse games that need manuals, Zelda ain't one of them and it's pretty easy to figure shit out until you manage.

That being said, conceptually your argument is just retarded in that it literally only considers the most simplistic of interactions on a linear path to be the only worthwhile design choices.


>>3868038
Metroid's even easier to figure out.
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it took me maybe 15-20 minutes to find the first dungeon as a kid

the whole point of the game is wandering around
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>>3869434
Pic related is shit. SHIT
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>>3869403
Simon's Quest wasn't intentionally designed in that way. The only thing that makes it difficult to finish is shoddy translation on clues.

That being said, there were a ton of guides, hint books, gaming mags around etc... You didn't need to talk to everyone the information was just out there. They also had hint lines you could call if you really needed but they were expensive.
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>>3873172
You can not like it, but that doesn't make it shit. Many people got the impression it was going to be a platformer or action game, which it isn't at all.

>>3873194
I have always believed that the translation was intentionally made to be misleading. And yeah you could call a hotline, but I liked that it was one of those games you asked around about. Many PC games were like that back then as well though. I don't think I would have figured out Rogue all by myself either
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>>3868051
Jesus christ, I was probably around 7 and found the dungeon in under 10 minutes... Autosaves,FAQs and tutorials have made you weak

>>3867963
But serious though, back in the day there was this magic thing called a paper and pen, and you could write up things that were imporant to you and the next time you played it you actually knew where it was. These games weren't meant to be beaten in a day, you payed lots of money for that game and the "how to's" of game design weren't that oversaturated yet that every game is more of a movie than an actual puzzle like it is nowadays. Finishing the game or finding all secrets wasn't automatically something you earned for buying it, you honed your skills until you beaten that part where you always failed only to be stumped a few minutes later and had to restart again. Even if they wanted to, the abilities of the console limits the 'cinematic entertainment value' to a certain degree, so games were solely based on reaction, skill and puzzle.

On another note, it really isn't hard to get to the first dungeon, the game guides you subcontiously.
>start at sword
>left - dead end
>up-left - you get into forest maze - dead end without secret
>maybe find 2nd dungeon - aha there must be a first - is order important?
>left top dead end (blue ring)
>bottom right - shitty jumpy spiders, magically appearing wurms from ground, shooting waterdemons, no hiding space, nothing to burn - fuck this shit the green forest seemed easier
>what is this bridge? Oh shit there it is

The increase in difficulty of the enemies leads you to the easier paths. If you fail to get through the harder enemies you restart at the entry spot, gaining access to the above mentioned possibilities. Else if you actually fought through the harder parts you'll end up with cash, candle and bombs while running in a circle anyway since the left part is blocked off for the most part, or even manage to get dungeon 3. Running a circle shouldn't take more than 15 minutes.
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>>3873294
IT'S SHIT FEZ IS SHIT
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>>3868334
>>3868312

Did you know they are bringing out a new album soon

errrr... I mean.... zelda zelda zelda.... to stay on topic
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>>3867963
I just got through the 2nd quest which you kind of have to do to legitimately beat the game and found it not to bad. I couldn't remember where shit was so it would be sort of like finding dungeons for the first time. I honestly think it's pretty fair.

You can get another candle that allows for as many bush burning as you please. I never bother with the shitty one time use per screen candle
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>>3868203
Games today hand hold you through the whole game. Back then they were legitimately tough. Months to master but can beaten in a few hours once you got gud. Now it's a month to finish a game but no real need to master anything.

I just got done playing blood borne and while it's a fantastic game it's not really all that hard. People consider it hard but I think it's because they don't know what hard is.
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>>3868096
Triggered manbaby
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>>3868096
>no one plays it these days
>NES minis literally flying off the shelf because of demand, even though alternate solutiona like emulation exsist
Many disagree with your frothing, caustic and flawed diatribe. But I do savor the salt. That kind of deep seeded anger towards a console, of all things and it's fans speaks volumes about your own mental state.
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>>3868096
>glad I'm not this guy>>3868203
>oh wait, I am.
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>>3873538
I haven't played any of them since Demon's, but some of my other Monster Hunter buddies are still into them. It's hearsay of course, but they mostly say the rest are even easier. MH is taking the opposite course. I shill it around here a lot, but it's because it just keeps getting more interesting.
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>>3872398
You don't need someone's notes, you have to take your own notes.
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>>3872420
There was an in-game hint, I forget what it was. Plus, the entrance was in an empty lake and I KNEW there had to be something there. Just had to put two and two together
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>>3873390
>>3873172
>trying too hard
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>>3873901
Oh, there you go >>3872519
And that lake was the only one that didn't have a fairy.
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>>3867963
I really like the first NES Mario, but I can't help but think that it's sort of a failure in terms of its design.

You take a game like The Legend of Zelda and it has held up amazingly well in terms of design. Anyone with any skill set can sit down, start up the first screen and learn the basics in five minutes or less, with the implication that they'll improve their skill set over time. It's simple.

I know Mario is its own thing and a totally different genre, but in replaying it I can't help but think that this ideology of a game where swapping secrets with your friends just guarantees that your game will feel dated not only in terms of visual/audio presentation but in gameplay as well.

There is so much obscure, cryptic stuff in this game that it's a frustration in of itself just to figure out what step one really is. I know that's the point, but all these years later down the road that directionlessness just seems sort of boggling. I know the American manual had pictures of power-ups (albiet very poor blackwhite ones) and the game isn't that hard to figure out after a lot of tinkering, but the fact that someone can't really get full enjoyment out of the game without looking stuff up or posting on a forum kind of disappoints me.

I'm not ragging on the gameplay or anything like that, I'm having a blast, but the idea of not having these resources and having to load up the same screen every time just to break individual blocks makes me realize that maybe at its core philosophy, the original NES Mario (and Mario III to an extent) is not very fun.
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>>3867963
It's true. I tried replaying it recently and quickly realized I had know idea where to go.

It's hard to explain but if you were there at the time you would understand. Kids would always talk about secrets in video games. It was everywhere. Nintendo power had a lot to do with it but most game info came mostly from friends.
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They wondered if people would find shit, and planned to let them discuss it among themselves. I bonded with a family member because of LoZ. For the record, I hate him now. I'd call that successful.

It's cool how it doesn't tell you what to do, but kid me figured it out. The problem with LoZ and LttP is the lack of replay value. Zelda 2 let you lose XP. LoZ/LttP just made you retry. And a fairy could absolve you.

Zelda shouldn't have high scores, but feedback and gameplay variety would be nice. I'd randomize item locations outside dungeons. Where possible. Randomizers already exist.

Other than that, it's extraordinary how well LoZ holds up.
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>>3867963
>There is so much obscure, cryptic stuff in this game that it's a frustration in of itself just to figure out what step one really is.

My eight-year-old self had a difficult time understanding this or any non-Mario game, but I honestly had no trouble beating Zelda in my early teen years. The only "cryptic" thing I had to consult outside help for was the location of one of the dungeons in the second quest. It was the one that required you to use the stepladder to position yourself against the mountain where the falling rocks began. You had to place a bomb in the location of the dungeon to reveal its entrance. In retrospect, even -that- shouldn't have seemed as cryptic as it did at the time.
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>>3868051
>LOZ nes is more like you can crawl around for 40 hours before you locate dungeon 1.
If you've stayed on the overworld for 40 hours and aren't a retard you've found the first dungeon - five fucking times already and have a near complete map of the place.
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>>3868791
t. 80s crybaby
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>>3869303
Unless you were born before 1980 you're a millenial.
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>>3873956
I usually like these kinds of things but this is just really lazy.
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>>3867963
The game was designed to sell more subscriptions to Nintendo Power and the $1.50/minute Nintendo Hotline.
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>>3873194
I wonder how many kids got the shit beat out of them for calling hint lines
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>>3873194
>>3875861
Sega's was free but they didn't even know how to get the good ending in Revenge of Shinobi I had to figure it out myself.
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>>3873564
how many of those NES minis will bear witness to a completed run of the first Zelda, .001%?

people are just buying it because it looks cute anyone who wants to play games already has something set up
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>>3871383
>the hammer knocking down trees is in the manual
Well shit. That's what I get for buying the game on its own I guess.

I'm curious though, does the manual say anything about Thunderbird requiring thunder to beat? I mean, I know it's kind of in the name, but if Thunderbird himself isn't mentioned in the manual then it's not much of a clue, because I'm pretty sure he's never explicitly named in the game itself.

Just wondering, since other than new kasuto (which I was wrong about being bullshit) the only really bullshit part of the game I can think of is the possibility of reaching the end of the final temple and not being able to do jack shit against the that boss. Because the guy only gives you thunder if you've found all of the magic power ups, and it's easy to miss at least one of those. But thunder isn't required to enter the final temple itself, so I'm pretty sure it's possible for a first time player to throw themselves at that gauntlet over and over, just to end up feeling really screwed by the game once they make it to the end. I can't even imagine how frustrating that would feel.
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>>3876638
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>>3871385
>I will never be able to play Zelda unspoiled
Even when I grew up I watched the kids down the street play and they played with a guide open.
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>>3868334

now let's play Primal Rage
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>>3873172

I agreed with the main point of the review by The Best Gamers, and the QR codes and crap really did not grab me... but nah that was still a good game. Even just as a straightforward puzzle game where you ignore the deeper stuff (because it's boring) and the story (because it's crappy and hidden behind boring stuff), it's fun enough. The puzzles are fine and the graphic design really is excellent. It's a decent game, even for somebody like me.
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All of the information you need to beat the first Zelda can be found within the game itself. Through random exploration you'll easily find the first three dungeons.
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>>3867963
About a year or two ago, having never beaten zelda or castlevania ii I decided to give them a try having never finished them before, and having scarcely any memories of them as well.

I didn't have to use a guide. I just had to check all the tiles. As an adult with an adult memory and attention span, this only actually took about an extra 2 hours _total_ once I realized that's what I had to do.

The only thing stopping you is the thought that "try all the things?! that'll take FOREVER!" But actually no. The game has a really limited ROM size. It doesn't take that long at all. The game is tiny. It is paperback book small.

The game does the bare minimum of telling you "hey try to do these things in places that resemble this cryptic comment" and that's all you need. It is enough.
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>>3867963
Game being dated is not necessarily bad. Some games are only there for a certain period of time - if all games were supposed to be timeless, we'd never get games that are complex or difficult, all we'd get are simple super-accessible games like Donkey Kong and Tetris, forever.

Also, Zelda 1 is totally beatable without outside help. Sure, maybe you won't 100% it without spending lot of time or a walkthrough (and one could argue a walkthrough or a forum is a modern equivalent of swapping info with a friend), but a modern adult gamer should be able to figure out most of the puzzles. Game is actually surprisingly good at funneling you down the main path, it's only when it's about secrets game gets kinda obscure.
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>>3868051
Bullshit.
In a 3/4 perspective game, player will almost allways go north, or right if they can't go north, and designers use it well (by putting first dungeon directly north of where you start). Not only that - if you go straight right, you will run into change of scenery and harder enemies, which will make most players instinctively turn around, and instead go up - back on track to the first dungeon. If you go left, you will find you can't go very far and eventually loop around to where you started.

Early Zelda is basically a loop that ends at first dungeon, and 90% of players will reach it in first 15-30 minutes of gameplay. It's basically a metroidvania, game world slowly opens as you complete dungeons. I mean, fuck, I found Dungeon 1 in 10 minutes of my first fully blind playthrough, come on.
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>>3875830
not my best work I must admit, but it still fits just as well, secret sharing being hidden power-ups, pipes and warpzones
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Seeing this thread made me go try out LoZ for the first time. I've done 5 dungeons so far in a couple hours. Finding where to go hasn't been an issue at all, although I've been using the map that comes with the game. Far more frustrating is the combat. A couple minutes wandering the overworld vs many times dying and retrying dungeons. Pretty similar to ALttP but with way less text.
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>>3877720
>In a 3/4 perspective game, player will almost allways go north, or right if they can't go north
it's statistically proven that when solving mazes people will choose left more often than right actually.

that's why the dead end is always on the left first
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>>3877886
you know that what you want has no bearing on what is, right?
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>>3878445
Sounds like you're having an authentic LoZ experience. Enjoying it?
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>>3878508
I was until this 6th dungeon. The blue Wizzrobes just are not fun. They can teleport up to you, shoot at you, and walk into you, and they can't be stunned or even knocked back with the sword, and there are rooms that throw 5 at you at once. It's taking me dozens of tries to clear each room, and I've caved and started using the emulator save states so I don't have to keep respawning at the entrance. Respawing with 3 hearts is cruel; I'm not gonna exit the dungeon and spend 10 minutes in the overworld finding health just to come and get killed by a Wizzrobe in 10 seconds again. Maybe that was cool 30 years ago but it feels so tedious now.
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>>3878548
Heh heh yeah. Enjoy rooms with both kindsa Darknuts next dungeon then both kindsa Wizzrobes in 9
>yfw Pols Voice could be stunned by shouting into the microphone on a Famicom controller
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I agree completely with OP, the rest of you all need to take off the nostalgia goggles. I'm old enough to have played the game as an actual child, and it was fun enough, but I never progressed past the first few dungeons because of the reasons op states. Bumbling around the same areas and putting bombs on random walls to find the next dungeon just isn't fun at all (unless you're an autist). There's other games that are much more enjotable (Megaman 2, Bubble Bobble, Super mario bros 1 and 3, to name a few).
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>>3878581
>Mega Man 2, Bubble Bobble and Mario 3 in 1987
Nope
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>it's another "IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT THIS GAME BLIND!" thread

OP if you can't imagine a world where people are smarter than you're going to have a rough life.
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>>3878548
Anytime you get a game over, its faster to just quit, restart at the beginning area, hit up the fairy fountain, and then go back to the dungeon.

Theres also a magic shield somewhere that will deflect their projectiles but I dont know where it is.
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leaving the dungeon respawns the wizzrobes though, i tried that. to get to gohma i need to go through 3 rooms of wizzrobes; i think getting through one room at a time with 3 hearts is probably easier than clearing all three rooms with 11 hearts
and the shield is in a shop, i just cant afford to pay 130 rupees and I didnt wanna grind enemies to get there
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>>3876649
I know this is meant to be a joke but for anyone who doesnt know, this is a fanmade hacked rom.

Pretty sure there's really no indication in Zelda 2 that you'll need Thunder before you go to the final palace.
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>>3867963
I think you sorta explained already why its not a design failure. It was intended to be a wide, open game you figured out over time by using both a provided map and talking with friends to share secrets you've found.

Just because you can't beat it blind without the social aspect doesn't mean its a failure, since that has no bearing on whether or not it achieved what it set out to.
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>>3878658
Go to the northeast corner where there's the lone tree with money making game and guarded by a bunch of those propeller things (name escapes me at the moment sorry). Go up the top edge of the screen, you can walk through and get to a hidden room that gives you 100 rupees




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