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Who's the better game designer?
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>>4517320
Yu Suzuki
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>>4517320
Kojima is a hack
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>>4517321
What about it?
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PSA: If you must post in a bait thread, please remember to sage.
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>>4517321
This.
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>>4517337
Is a "bait thread" anything that's not about CRTs or shitty eBay listings?
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>>4517321
He's pretty okay, though I guess he is slightly less mediocre than the other options in this case
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>comparing Hackjima to Miyamoto
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>>4517320
Kojima's the better kisser
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>>4517320
Kojima doesn't design games. He designs movies.
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>>4517320
kojima makes movies, anon
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>>4517709
>>4517871
L E E P I C M E M E
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>>4517321
>killed Sega by going overbudget on a boring Japanese life simulator
He's shit.
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>>4517382
R O A S T ED

Also Kojima
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>>4517885
That old faggot should have ported spikeout to dreamcast instead.
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>>4517320
> virgin Miyamoto vs Chad Kojima
ftfy
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>>4517320
>Kojima
>game designer
Pick ONLY one (1)
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>>4518230
It's the other way around, /v/
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>>4517878
It may be an epic meme, but they are right.
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>>4517320
Kojima, Miyamoto is a smelly gook who's only purpose in life was making Nintendo a cashcow. Kojima actually cared about storytelling and good gameplay. Mario stopped being good after 64.
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>>4517320
Kojima is a planner though he doesn't make shit.
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Kojima seems like a failed screenwriter who worked in games as a fallback. And his games reflect that.

I think he's a big reason why modern games are so focused on story and cinematics. Which is probably why I'm not interested in them.
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>>4518302
Imagine being this much of a kojimabot
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>>4517320
>Sonyponies have no genius developers of their own so they have to cling to this overrated hack because their oldest vidya memories is of Metal Gear Solid

Sad.
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>>4517320
Miyamoto is an actual game designer while Kojima is a shitty movie director, so Miyamoto obviously.
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>>4517320
Miyamoto
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>>4517662
you mean hack vs hack
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>>4518239
I always pick Kojima
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>>4517320
From a modern standpoint, Kojima. But Miyamoto came with games that are classic at this point: Mario, Donkey Kond, Zelda, etc. Only that, at this point, none of his design would survive the current year.
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>>4517320
I dont get the deal with kojima. He's okay, but his games aren't that fun. The best thing he did was the silent hill thing. But he didnt invent silent hill. Metal gear is just a convuluted mess made for army fetishists.
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>>4518495
If you watch carefully you will notice that his fanbase is basically young adults that have poor education.
Show them a finger and they will laugh but show them moving pictures with some pseudo intellectual monologue and they are in delirium.
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>>4518550
>you will never bully young Kojima with fellow konami employees
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>>4518551
>be hired as "planner"
>no technical skills
>no artistic skills
>receive paycheck
>get bullied
I wonder why
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>>4518550
No wonder he resonated with an entire generation of unemployable NEETs
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>>4518556
I take offense to that. I'm an unemployable NEET and he didn't resonate with me at all.
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>>4518550
>show them moving pictures with some pseudo intellectual monologue and they are in delirium.
Unironically this.

Kojima fanboys have even polluted the MGS2 Wikipedia page with their pseud garbage. They act like it had some kind of deep and remarkably insightful message but the entire Patriots portion of the ending was pulled (in usual Kojima fashion) from a documentary he watched on TV about the future of information control.

The only even slightly interesting and creative element of the game's story (the whole scenario being a recreation of the first game in order to train Raiden as a super soldier - as a kind of meta-commentary on lazy game sequels) was immediately aborted to fit in more psued trash.
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>>4517337
Oh my god, an actual discussion of two of the most well-known game designers on the planet is a bait thread?! Are you being fucking serious? An ACTUAL debate, having an actual fucking interesting subject, is no more than just "bait" for you? Are you fucking retarded? Are you feeling well? Do you need some ibuprofen or something? Are you in pain, sir?
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>>4518302
>Miyamoto is a smelly gook
Racism.
>Kojima actually cared about storytelling and good gameplay
Conjecture.
>Mario stopped being good after 64.
Baseless opinion.
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>>4518550
>At least complete a game before you die
Hooooooly shiiiit, now tell that to some indie developers and crowdfounding riders.
>>
I'm actually surprised so many people here bash Kojima so much.
I didn't grow up with Nintendo and find zero bias when it comes to Miayamoto. I've tried some Legend of Zelda and Mario titles, but it just never quite clicked with me.It's not a comment on the games themselves, all things considered I should like any given LoZ as I love topdown RPG/adventure games and I should like Mario because I do like the occasional 2D/3D platformer/sidescroller. Maybe I just don't like the art design or the characters.

As for Metal Gear Solid series, I've been there since the first game (though not when it came out). It gripped me with its presentation and the focus on stealth and I was almost immediately in love with the characters and the voice acting. That's not to say it's amazing by any standards, but at the time I was blown away by it, I was probably around 13 years old though, so that might explain it. I went on to play MGS2-5, some of Peace Walker I really like the series on gameplay alone (but I HATE the story in PW). Not as much as I did around the time MGS3 was out, though, some of that love has waned quite a lot. MGS5 was fun for a really long time but eventually I got tired of its cookie-cutter side ops.

Now I can find a lot to complain about in these games but game design is not it, I don't think. The focus on these games is stealth. On the other hand, you can go out guns blazing and have fun playing the games that way and still succeed at the end of the day. I remember spending countless hours playing the VR missions in MGS1 because they were so varied and creative, especially the Puzzle ones...

In good conscience though, I can't say Kojima is better than Miyamoto. They both have their unique takes on what videogames should be, one sees them as an opportunity to create something as pure fun gameplay as possible, whereas the other one clearly wants to make art with the medium. They're both competent at what they do, is there really an answer to this question?
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>>4518601
>whereas the other one clearly wants to make art with the medium
He just likes movies a lot, that's it.
This isn't even a secret, Kojima says that "80% of my body is made of films" or something like that, and actively tries to use development budget to incorporate actual Hollywood actors for his games, like Sutherland.
He also hangs out with movie makers, not game developers.
I think he just found himself in the video games industry and wanted to make "movie-inspired" video games. I don't know if that's the same as cinematic, I still think Kojima's games have some game-y parts. I mean, after all, Kojima is a planner and director, but the actual game mechanics aren't made by him. I think the MG games are still good because Konami always had good in-house developers. It would be entirely different if Kojima tried to do Metal Gear with, say, Interplay or Core Design dev teams.
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>>4518302
Kojima and storytelling should not go together. MGS1 is a shitshow for story and is so full of shyamalamadingdongs that I have no clue why people ever take MGS stories seriously.
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>>4518609
>Kojima is a planner and director, but the actual game mechanics aren't made by him
There's so many fourth-wall-breaking elements in these games that I can guarantee you that Kojima oversees gameplay closely. Psycho Mantis is brought up as the go-to example of the game addressing you directly, having to switch controller ports etc., and there are more examples, like when Snake is captured and Naomi gives you a "shiatsu massage" by making the controller vibrate. Or how about that time when you had to check the back of the box to contact Meryl? He even went so far as to write a ton of unique dialog for Mei Ling for when you save the game, including to when you prompt her to save but then don't. How about the plethora of information you're given of every single piece of equipment you have from Nastasha and there are even secret "ghosts" all over the game that you can only see when you take a picture with the camera in specific spots. Did you also find all the Moai statues? Remember also when you had to destroy a power generator with the remote controlled-missile in an area full of toxic gas? How about all the unique dialog you get only when you perform certain contextual actions, many of them you wouldn't even normally think of doing, like if you look at Meryl in first person view for a long time, she gets gradually redder? Or when looking for the DARPA chief's cell, if you back out of the vents and go back inside, Meryl will be doing different exercises? How about if you kill the ravens before fighting Vulcan for the second time, you not only get a different cutscene with him, you also get a codec conversation with Campbell and Naomi telling you to stop killing animals?

These games have a specific kind of feel and it's not just the "movie-like" aspect, there's so much to the gameplay itself that the cinematic presentation can even take a backseat.
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>>4518609
>I think the MG games are still good because Konami always had good in-house developers.
Hit the nail in the head.
Pretty much the reason why Konami parted ways with Kojima.
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>>4518448
>>>/tv/
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>>4517320
Every single Kojima game is a succession of cinematics with some gameplay inserted between them

Miyamoto games, good or bad, are always gameplay first. At the very least,

When it comes to games, Miyamoto wins
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>>4518694
>Every single Kojima game is a succession of cinematics with some gameplay inserted between them

So he's the more influential guy since this is single player gaming right now (sadly)
>>
>Raising the subject of Japanese nationals who could have been a source of information for Kojima lead us on to an even more interesting discussion, the slight obsession Kojima has with American militarism. As Agness succinctly put it, "Why is Mr Kojima writing about a country he's not a part of, and frankly doesn't know that much about? Watching a bunch of Michael Bay movies does not... I mean, it teaches you about America, in that we let a guy like this direct a lot of movies, but why doesn't he write a Japanese game? You know, same kind of action, same kind of stealth. There is darkness in Japan as well, and there's of course the potential for a lot more in the future, in any country which happens to be peaceful. There are a lot Japanese mercenaries. If you remember there was one killed in Iraq a few years ago."

>I point out that Kojima actually hired Japanese former-mercenary Motosada Mori, as his main military consultant. Agness went on, "But it's still this idea that if you're Japanese, or a game is Japanese, it's not cool, and I have come to loathe that attitude, with a passion. And I can go on a big rant, about how it's a product of internalising cultural imperialism from the West, or a kind of self-loathing, or desire to forget the past. It's not very long ago that a bunch of Japanese people sprayed an Israeli airport with machine-gun fire."
>>
Ultimately, as she explains, there's a lack of authenticity when you focus on a country not your own, especially when there's plenty of material in Japan to draw upon, "I think it's a bad form of playfulness to play at being another country's soldiers. It's inauthentic, and ultimately makes a fool of you, I think. I mean, yeah, it's just a game. But you know, if it's just a game, then why not try something creative? A lot of the Japanese guys that join the French Foreign Legion, or go on to become guns for hire in places like Iraq, they do so because there is no place for them in society. Most of them join the [Japanese] Self Defence Force, but it's not enough for them. They actually are soldiers at heart, for better or for worse, so they leave the country because they're, you know...I think it's good, speaking as a civilian, because there is no place for stone killers in this country right now. And that's an interesting thing, as well, that because of what you are, you have to sort of wander the Earth, looking to fight in other people's wars, for money. To try to find whatever meaning you can. That to me is a good starting point, I think."

I ask her, should Kojima work on something closer to home? "Yeah, something he can actually understand. I know that sounds really, really harsh, but I was really disturbed that a lot of the... Some of the earlier scene stuff I got, literally had references to Hollywood blockbusters, in the margins saying: 'Like in this movie!' But none of them were rare films, I mean it wasn't talking about Dr Strangelove, it was all just kind of bone-headed, you know, Bruckheimer kind-of... And I like some bone-headed stuff just fine. If Predator is on, I will always watch it. Same thing with Universal Soldier, believe it or not. But you can't then base your supposedly new fiction on that stuff. It's just a patchwork of Tom Clancy, Frederick Forsythe, Bruckheimer... It's a Frankenbaby, and not a pretty one, not a very effective one I think."
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>Something Agness has been critical of is Kojima's writing ability, or rather his lack of it. Offering her free opportunity to speak, I asked what she felt, "I think he's very bad at character, and I think he's extremely conventional, as in non-creative, when it comes to plotting. I know that I'll probably get an incredible amount of hate karma - can you say hate karma? - about this. So I'll just say that I did grow up reading, I told you I grew up without TV, so I read instead. And I like Cormac McCarthy, and the science-fiction writers; I love Frank Herbert, I love Alfred Bester, right now I really like Greg Egan, so I am extremely picky, and I do have a high standard when it comes to writing."

>"I think that if you're ripping off Tom Clancy, it's...Tom Clancy is Tom Clancy, he deserves all the money and fame. The guy has worked hard. Writing is hard work. So to shoot out a bunch of these kinds of things, that we've been talking about, and then claim yourself as a writer when...And you know, there's good work being done in games. I think Portal is really well written, very beautifully written, but Kojima's stuff is...Fine, be a game creator, and know what you're not very good at, and learn to work with people who are. Stanley Kubrick, famously, the one thing he could not do was write. He could do everything else, but he didn't know how to write, so he worked with good writers, and worked with them in a very sort of relentless partnership. He knew his limits. I don't think Kojima's a writer. The fact that he would even be considered one shows how low the standards are in the game industry. Nothing in MGS2 is above a fanfic level. He wouldn't last a morning in a network TV writers' room, and those aren't exactly turning out the Dark Tower series or The Wire."
>>
Kojima has way more hits than misses as much as people like to tumble headlong into contrarian mode over him nowadays. I can only think of a few times where a game he's been heavily involved in disappointed me.

Miyamoto is honestly in the same boat, it's just his influence stretches a whole lot further than his own series. And even he has had some pretty thorough misses.

Both are irreplaceable in the medium
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>>4517320
do you mean game producer???
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>>4518736
So much complete asshurt and run on sentences. I love that kojima can create such assblast and still make multi million dollar games.
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>>4518753
wtf i though he was game planner?
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>>4518747
>Kojima
>game
I insist, pick only one.

>irreplaceable in the medium
Sure, helping make the single player industry the cinematic fest it is right now.
>>
Kojima's worst game is MGS4 and that's only because of its batshit retarded story, the gameplay definitely holds up.

Meanwhile Miyamoto just ruins franchises with crap like Sticker Star, Color Splash, Yoshi's New Island etc.
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>>4518810
>the gameplay definitely holds up
all 5 minutes of it
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>>4518813
Stop exaggerating, anon. It's more like 5 seconds.
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>>4518587
Faggotry
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>>4518581
What documentary?
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>>4518732
>>4518734
>>4518736
Kaku reeks of being a failed wannabe-novelist.
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>>4519192
just like Kojima is a failed film-maker?
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>>4518810
The only bad thing from MGS4 where the after credits
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>>4518759
>>4519192
Whatever you may think about Kaku as a person she is 1000000% right about Kojima
>>
the guy who made OOT & Mario 64 is better, whichever one that is
>>
Miyamoto isn't as out of touch as people think he is. For example, he genuinely thought Grand Theft Auto III was a great game.
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This is a retarded thread. They make completely different games and aren't really comparable. It's like comparing a cartoonist to an architect.
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>>4518623
This. So much of mgs was using unique and new ways to play games, that fit in perfectly with the overall story. Just cause good cinematics were used doesnt make it bad or a movie. It just took good ideas from making a movie a mixed it with gameplay. I think it creates a more engrossing experience. Where as the story to mario is copy paste with a few new things added each time. Every single nintendo game is the same as the last, just made with new technology. How many times can mario save the princess, how many times can link save the princess, how many hundreds of pokemon do there need to be, how many times does megaman need to stop dr willy, how many cliche over used storylines need to be recreated over and over again. At least the mg/mgs games continue a story, an in depth story that doesnt take itself too seriously.

I like both kojima and miyamoto, but they have such different visions for games, its hard to compare. Im glad we have both so there is such a variance in game choices.
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>>4519265
No, thats just like, her opinio , man.

I like the surreal idea of american military that kojima dreamed up. Its awesome, crazy, realistic until some batshit crazy shit happens(which i like). I think she just takes shit to seriously, which is something kojima likes, to be super serious, then stick some unique schtick to break the 4th wall or something. It helps bring some humor and rest time between the tense gameplay and intriguing plots.
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>>4517321
>Kojima
>game designer

[raughs]
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>>4519339
Indeed. Her whole mentality about how Kojima shouldn't write fictional stories involving the U.S. military because he never served in the armed forces is self-defeatist. By that logic, nobody should write stories set in the middle ages because nobody today were alive back then.
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>>4517320
Miyamoto was..... he hasn't done anything in 2 decades though. At least Kojimbo is still trying.
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>>4519257
Beauty and Beast
MGS4 Raiden
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>>4517382
>>4518584
Please, go back to /v/ and take your thread with you. Underage b&.
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>>4517320
Kojima.

Miyamoto is a well known thief. Don't let that smile fool you.
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>>4519525
Death Stranding looks like shit tho and MGS5 wasn't even a real Metal Gear game.
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>>4519525
David Cage is trying too
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>>4517320
>Kojima
>game designer
what?
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>>4519549
This and "nanomachines did everything"
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Kojima intended MGS2 to be the last one. Death threats from fans and pressure from Konami led to him creating 3, 4, and 5. 3 was a way of avoiding a sequel to 2, 4 was a terrible MGS because 2 wasn't designed to have a sequel, 5 is a semi-remake of 2, Kojima's way of reminding the player that 2 was meant to be the last entry in the series. As a interactive "art form", 2 is the most significant effort by a videogame attempting to be art in that it uses its medium to extend its meanings, symbolism, analysis, etc, to the beholder. The message of 2 flew so hard over peoples heads that it doesn't matter whether or not a person likes or hates MGS, he still probably doesn't understand it - a lot of MGS fans just wanted to play action hero as Solid Snake and didn't realise that Raiden - the effeminate girly boy called Jack - is actually personifying the player. It is even implied that when you play through the Tanker chapter, you are actually playing as Raiden playing the Tanker chapter in VR. A lot of people who aren't MGS fans like the ones in this thread don't the know the context of Kojima's career at all and dismiss him as a hack, when they are now unwittingly living in the world described by Kojima's villains in 2 which was released 17 years ago.

Miyamoto makes kids games.
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>>4517320
Go suck Kojima's overrated cock somewhere else.
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>>4520527
relax buddy
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>>4519525
>he hasn't done anything in 2 decades though
Starfox Zero and Pikmin 3 before that, right?
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>>4519549
What the fuck, those were the two best things about 4.
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>>4520521
>2 wasn't designed to have a sequel
So why does it end on a massive cliffhanger, then?
You're misremembering facts here. 2 was the last MGS game he intended to work on, not the last one he intended to be made. Dude has been Jay-Z retiring after every single game he's made after MGS2.
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>>4520551
2 doesn't really have a cliffhanger, the final conversation reveals that all those names belonged to dead people and so the AI Raiden spoke to was all that was left of the conspiracy, that's all.

Anyway Kojima gave interviews before release that he intended for it to be the last MGS, it was not designed to have a follow up.
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>>4517320
Miyamoto makes games, Kojima makes shitty knockoff movies.
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>>4520551

What cliffhanger? All I remember is the conversation between Raiden and Snake about dissemination of information and choosing not to consume messages determined by politics.

Been a few years since I played it.
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>>4520632
>>4520558
>MGS2 did not have a cliffhanger
>Liquid Ocelot is still on the loose, Vamp is still alive, Solid Snake goes off to seek Olga's kid and nobody still knows who The Patriots are despite half the story revolving around them
I didn't mind MGS2 that much, but you have to be deluded to think it didn't deliberately left its loose ends open for a sequel.
>>
>hack writer who steals everyone's glory
VS
>actual game designer

Hmmm....I wonder who would win.
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>>4517320
>Miyamoto
Actually compotent and sane, but kind of an boring jobber who just keeps wanting to innovate but accidentally makes the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
>Kojima
Most likely insane, pretty infuriatingly shit at times, but you can't deny that his design isn't at least interesting.
>>
>>4517320
Neo Suzuki from Matorikusu
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>>4520954
>who just keeps wanting to innovate but accidentally makes the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Miyamoto wasn't actually responsible for most of those rehashes. His portfolio as Director or Designer is filled almost entirely with innovative games. He supervised a lot of rehashes in his roles as Producer though.
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>>4520654
>>Liquid Ocelot is still on the loose, Vamp is still alive, Solid Snake goes off to seek Olga's kid and nobody still knows who The Patriots are despite half the story revolving around them
>you have to be deluded to think it didn't deliberately left its loose ends open for a sequel.
If you accept that everything that happened was a VR simulation, as it should be, none of those cliffhangers were real.

Since you brought up Olga, and you seem to think those events were real and not a ruse, let me ask you something:

How was she able to put the cyborg exoskeleton on and off so quickly and how come it made her so much taller when it was on?

More specifically, toward the end, when Raiden is in the torture chamber, Olga is in her army outfit and punches Raiden before exiting the room. But I'll remind you that moments before this, she was wearing the exoskeleton and aided Snake & Otacon in capturing Raiden to infiltrate the Arsenal Gear more easily.

Moreover, I recall Snake stating that they have secured Olga's baby anyhow. It's extremely convenient, much like Rose appearing out of nowhere at the end.

And finally, Ocelot spoke with Liquid's voice, despite this not being the case in MGS4 and it was never explained how his voice changed when Liquid "took over his mind." This was just one more element to MGS2's plot to fuck with your head. Even Snake seemingly can't hear Liquid's voice coming out of Ocelot when he first "hears" it in the Tanker chapter. If you rewatch the cutscenes, it takes him a while to realize Ocelot's personality's changed all of a sudden, rather than immediately recognizing Liquid's voice.

Anyway, Liquid Ocelot is just one more part of the simulation; Ocelot actually fled the Shadow Moses incident before it was over, so he escapes during the Big Shell incident too. Everything happening in MGS2 was deliberately copying the events of MGS1, the only difference is, we get to see him flee in the RAY unit and Snake fucking swims after it, lol.
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>>4521227
>If you accept that everything that happened was a VR simulation
And this is why MGS2fags are hard to take seriously. MGS2 was not a VR simulation. It's a live simulation where the participants were manipulated by The Patriots. The game says as much at the end. Anyone who believes otherwise is just reading into things that aren't there or taking fourth wall breaking jokes too seriously.

Most of the unrealistic shit that you complain in MGS2 are not that far off from all the unrealistic shit that also happens in MGS1 when you factor the likes Mantis, Raven and Octopus
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>>4521358
>And this is why MGS2fags are hard to take seriously.
I'm not an "MGS2fag."
>MGS2 was not a VR simulation. It's a live simulation where the participants were manipulated by The Patriots
This is what I thought at first, back when I finished the game myself. For years I also assumed the "simulation" was as you've described.

But too much evidence points at VR simulation.
>People coming out of nowhere without any explanation
>People appearing out of nowhere at the most convenient times without any sense
>Olga being the cyborg ninja
>Ocelot has Liquid's voice when his personality kicks in
>Fortune just so happens to have telekinetic powers even though it was technology the whole time
>Vamp gets shot in the head and doesn't die
>Characters talk about VR all the time in dialog
>Raiden gradually losing his grip on reality
>"Colonel" AI systematically insisting Snake was never part of the simulation, despite Snake & Otacon either secretly or blatantly helping Raiden progress almost every single step of the way
>How was Raiden supposed to infiltrate the Big Shell's net underwater when he has zero equipment at the start of the mission? etc.
>How was Raiden supposed to get all his equipment back without Snake?
>How the fuck did he climb a ladder and ended up in a VR platform with no hatch anywhere on the floor?
>Where were all the civilians up until Solidus was dead?
>Why was Raiden even wearing a dogtag with the player's name on it?

There's so much more evidence and none of it makes any sense outside of being VR. Not a single person in this thread is able to disprove the VR simulation theory because the evidence is overwhelming and the only justification is always, ALWAYS "MGS4 is canon." No sequel can retroactively remove that much overwhelming evidence. There's so much more but the above points are the main ones.

You choose to ignore all the evidence for what reason? What is your excuse for perpetuating the "MGS2fags can't be taken seriously" meme?
>>
This storyfagging... Metal Gear was indeed cancer on the industry.
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>>4518581
>mfw I only kind of liked Kojimbo recently after playing 3 which had tons of funny content placed in ways you only see it if you look
I don't ever want to see MGS2 or 4 cutscenes again but I will crawl every inch of grass available on 3 purely for the gameplay.
Also I've seen MUCH more detractors than fanboys of the "pseudo intellectual monologue" Kojima at times puts in.
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>>4521462
>Metal Gear was indeed cancer on the industry.
Not as much as Final Fantasy VII-onwards.
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>>4521465
Same guy, and FFVII is pretty much on the same boat for me
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>>4518810
>Sticker Star, Color Splash,
Theses two are from Tanabe, not Miyamoto.

>Yoshi's New Island
Was outsourced to Arzest. Miyamoto didn't had participation, and you would argue Yoshi's franchise was already ruined beginning with Yoshi's Story.
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>>4517320
they both suck
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>>4521465
You mean Final Fantasy IV? Ah, of course, that was released for a Nintendo console, it doesn’t count
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>>4523269
That counts as well though it's an earlier, not as dumb example which didn't have as much impact (not even released in Europe for instance).




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