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>*peaks*
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>>4727079
>*valleys*
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>>4727079
Brutal mogging
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Yeah? If he's so perfect... explain this.
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>>4727123
What would happen if she stopped?
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>>4727124
Time is a flat circle. We're back to "dinosaur dumb, mammal smart" levels of reasoning again.
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>>4727124
>mammals are the best, says mammal
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>>4727127
he would get sad
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>>4727123
Ok but what the hell is she doing to it
Do they really need a deep scrubbing on their backs
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>>4727124
>um I had to evolve more because my evolutions suck cock and are for faggots without scales so I win
lmao mammalcuck... really?
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>>4727127
It would be extremely painful
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I want to befriend an alligator.
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>>4727079
>>4727090
The duality of Archosauria
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>>4727124
>>4727129
My thought exactly.

>Um actually reptiles died out because they were dumb

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And modern NPCs can't learn period.
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>>4727209
I don't even want to get into the feather debate. It is just so tiring hearing something that was mocked my entire life be brought up as some new salient point.
>Oh, did you know reptiles are cold blooded? Mammals must have had a huge advantage over them!
Interesting. Please explain the synapsids getting fucked by reptiles again, then.
>BUT A NEW STUDY
I am tired of this world, its people, and the petty noises they make.
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>>4727222
The good paleontologists never bought into any of this horseshit.
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>>4727209
>>4727222
>>4727247
So we agree the feather stuff is bullshit
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>>4727273
Yes, but you'll get called paleoschizo for saying so and I personally just want to keep this about "reptiles are inferior to mammals" bullshit.
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>>4727273
There is indisputable fossil evidence that some late dinosaurs had feathers and some basal ones may have evolved all the way to fuzz in lieu of scales (if crocs are genetically similar, that is literally a single gene being switched to produce elongated floppy scales).
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>>4727137
>need
Stop using this word
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>>4727209
That image fuckin kills me. We're back to middle ages bullshit. Remarkable how that happens.
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>>4727304
>some late dinosaurs had feathers
This is disputed by facts known for 150 years.
First of all, feathers were advanced enough by the JURASSIC to provide the ability of at least limited flight. Pic fucking related. There was ZERO EVIDENCE of any feathers in the fossil record until miraculously China revealed the Archeoraptor in 1999, which was revealed to be a PROVEN HOAX, but later that PROVEN HOAX was brushed under the rug as more and more fossils with feathers came out of China and the Chinese government not so subtly told the scientific community that if they were looked at too closely then China would lock them out of their fossil beds. So that was that. A new myth was born, that - much like intelligent design or gradualism of old - either dinosaurs who had no feathers in earlier ages magically gained them by the Cretaceous, OR ALTERNATIVELY most if not all dinosaurs had feathers based on when those feathers must have evolved (i.e. extremely early, Triassic).

The fossil evidence is not only disputable based on the proven hoax, but disputable on all other elements as well. You cannot pick and choose which dinosaurs "had feathers all along" just based on how you think they ought to have looked in the Cretaceous.
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>>4727273
There are only TWO species of feathered dinosaur ever found outside of china and mongolia: Ornithomimus (and some of these fossils look sus also) and Archaeopteryx, which has fully formed asymmetrical flight feathers, despite being the earliest known feathered dinosaur. That's literally it. Everything else is chinks or inference and a giant game of pretend. Some dinosaurs that were inferred to have feathers like T. rex or Concavenator have been PROVEN to have scales instead. And Concavenator even had supposed "quill knobs".
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>>4727320
Nobody cares about your boogieman. Refute what I said or fuck off.
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>>4727304
no, feathers and scales are derived from the same structure, anything that has scales has the ability to have feathers, it just needs another thing, i cant remember what, to turn them into down, which is far cry from flight feathers
>>
>chinese are adding feathers to dinosaurs in order to turn american kids gay
Just how weak American kids are if their prehistoric reptilian stompy beasts being prehistoric avian stompy beasts is enough to turn Timmy, a true redblooded American patriot to be, into Triss, a porn-addicted tranny degenerate who films himself masturbating in women's restrooms?
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>>4727124
No shit.
Reptiles are largely locked to niches where mammals don't compete with them directly.
Like shallow water ambush hunters. A niche that would be challenging for more energetic and higher metabolic rate mammals to beat out reptiles in.
But most other ones, yeah. Endothermy is really good.
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>>4727222
Synapsids weren't fully endothermic.
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>>4727129
Mostly we're getting away from the 'everything is a bird', stuff.
Also getting away from the 'smart dino' meme. Where every time you found more than one skeleton of a species together, it meant they were complex pack hunters that'd make chimps and wolves look pathetic.

Nowadays we're getting more heavy, crocodile-like or komodo dragon-like restorations, with lots of weight and mass.
And most paleontologists are starting to agree that few if any dinosaurs expressed pack hunting behaviors. Like most of the time, your best example would be flocking during migrations in herbivores, or opportunistic gatherings of carnivores on dead or dying prey.
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>>4727123
I wish bitches would scrub my back.
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>>4727349
Can't refute. Fuck off.
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>>4727344
So basically, time is a flat circle, we're going backwards, paleontologists have nothing new to talk about so they recycle garbage from the 19th century.
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>>4727313
It really isn't. This shit has been predicted for years. It's why Mike Judge made the movie Idiocracy. Only NPCs tried to pretend this wasn't happening. Now everyone's whining about a "competency crisis". Gee, I wonder how the fuck that happened?
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>>4727304
>some basal ones may have evolved all the way to fuzz
Nope. There is precisely ZERO evidence for this and LOTS of evidence that contradicts it. This is one of those things modern paleofags just literally made up and have been trying for the past 20 or so years to "prove" is real, despite constantly coming up empty handed.
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paleoshart thread? paleoshart thread
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>>4727320
You have a very low IQ if you think I type like that.
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>>4727331
So where are the feathered lizards and crocodiles? Why can crocodile scales NOT be turned into feathers, even though bird feet scales can be?
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>>4727332
>Wow let me just keep bashing this strawman I built
Getting anywhere? Is he talking? Is he telling you where Hamas is holding the hostages (but not raping because they're ugly)?
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>>4727344
>Mostly we're getting away from the 'everything is a bird', stuff.
Why were paleopseuds ever doing this shit to begin with? Right from the beginning we were SCREAMING at them that this was derailing the field and was factually wrong.

>with lots of weight and mass
Which is extremely wrong. Crocodilians are an odd case in reptiles because they're semi-aquatic and their abdomens are "squishy" which makes idiots think they're "fat". The anatomically rigorous reconstruction technique is absolute fact. This "everything is fat" is retarded. Reptiles aren't mammals. They don't hoard fat like Wal*Mart shoppers.
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>>4727349
For your next trick, you'll scream "NO YOU EDITED THE IMAGE! NO YOU POSTED FROM TWO DIFFERENT DEVICES! THERE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE THAN ONE PERSON DISAGREEING WITH ME!!"
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>>4727371
Look at large reptiles like Monitor lizards.
They're extremely massive and heavy.
That doesn't mean they're fatty. It means they're full of tissue and muscle.
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>>4727371
Even smaller ones are extremely fleshy.
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>>4727366
>So where are the feathered lizards and crocodiles? Why can crocodile scales NOT be turned into feathers,
because they dont have the thing that turns scales into feather, can you read, retard.
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>>4727357
Fuck no. There's LOADS new in even just dinosaur studies. But most of the good information is being pushed out by bad "theory" and the field, like everything in modern society, is committing suicide for short-term profit.

>>4727384
No. It's because they don't have feathered ancestors. The way featherfags are claiming feathers work and have evolved is pure pseudoscientific fucking gibberish. The reason bird feet scales can be turned into feathers is because their body scales ALREADY DID, but they kept the scales on their feet because they're useful for keeping clean. It's very likely that there is a whole-body signal that says "If any scale is detected, convert it to a feather", but another one that says "Block any attempt to convert feet scales to feathers". That's why fucking with the hormones and gene expression with bird feet scales can turn them into feathers, but NOTHING can turn bird feathers into scales. Or crocodile scales into feathers.
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>>4727375
>>4727377
That's not fat, buddy. That's muscle. And you're posting sprawling lizards. Not erect archosaurs. The mechanics are slightly sloppier in lizards because of this so they look just a tad "doughier", though it's somewhat of an illusion.
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>>4727392
>That doesn't mean they're fatty. It means they're full of tissue and muscle.
I'm aware its not all body fat.

There's no reason to think that any large non-avian dinosaur would be any sleeker.
Their closest living relatives are all extremely robust and fleshy.
Crocodiles, lizards, snakes. All follow the same pattern of getting extremely 'meaty' as they grow in size.
So too would any hadrosaur, tyrannosaur, or any other non-avian lineage.
Avian dinosaurs would be gracile, but they'd also be smaller, and would thicken up as they grew in size, like we see with Utahraptor and other large Dromaeosaurs.

Lean or slim large dinosaurs don't fit with any of the data we have about how they'd most likely look.
They'd be large and heavily set.
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>>4727392
The chameleon in the image you posted earlier isn't an erect archosaur either, yet you're using it as an example to support your claim.
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>>4727400
Yeah, if you really wanna compare dinosaurs to modern reptiles, and crocs have to be excluded because of reasons, then a 70kg terrestrial komodo dragon is a far better fit than a 700g arboreal chameleon.
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>>4727344
>few if any dinosaurs expressed pack hunting behaviors
why tho? it makes perfect sense
by the jurassic most dinosaurs would have developed pack hunting due to how dangerous and massive their preys would have evolved. you can't tell me with a straight face that a lone allosaurus would have killed a stegosaurus, even ambushes are a big risk considering the thagomizer. let alone a goddamn diplo.
surely there have been ambush hunters, probably most raptors were, but later theropods like tyrannosaurids would surely have the brain capacity to form bonds and hunt in coordinated groups

or as always it's (((paleontologists))) making shit up to get funding and some pages in popsci tabloids
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>>4727324
>>4727318
I'd like to know, if chinks were making "feathers on dinosaurs" up, why? What's their endgame?
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>>4727124
Birds are reptiles thoughbeit
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>>4727367
lmao I chuckled
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>>4727305
Ok but why
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>>4727420
To demoralize the American public.
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>>4727149
for you
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>>4727123
>how does it make you feel, therapsid boy?
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>>4727443
birds are as much reptiles as human are an ungulates, actually, im pretty sure all mammals are more related to each other than a bird is related to a lizard
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>enjoyable thread
>paleoschizo, instead of shooting himself, comes to shit it up
damnit!
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>>4727123
Must feel heavenly for something that can't reach it's back to scratch it
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>>4727417
Because we don't see it in crocodiles, lizards, or the vast majority of birds.
Pack hunting is extremely rare outside of mammals.
Even crows, that are very smart and do flock together in social communities, do most of their food attainment on their own and only rarely do anything that could be called 'pack hunting'.

Opportunistic gatherings like you see from crocodiles, vultures, monitor lizards, definitely happened.
But there isn't any evidence we can point to among extant archosaurs or their relatives that would tell us dinosaurs pack hunted. It is not a common behavior that we see in living relatives.
>>
Crocodiles are evolving into turtles tho
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>>4727499
*xerself
Don't misgender now!
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>>4727397
>Their closest living relatives are all extremely robust and fleshy.
Are they? Because this is what an erect archosaur actually looks like and it's NOTHING like how brian engh and his kin who SWEAR dinosaurs are just birds look.
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>>4727400
No, but all reptiles DO support my claim. Any "chub" you see on a reptile is going to be muscle, not fat.

>>4727406
Again, this is a sprawling animal and it has limbs that indicate this. Salamanders and lizards also have limbs that look like this because they have a similar gait. This is how an actual erect archosaur's locomotive limbs look. Notice a difference? Now birds have a slightly different femer to tibia ratio and orientation and that affects the calf mass a bit, so ostriches for example have enormous calves which dinosaurs wouldn't. But what you WON'T see is crocodile like limbs on a ratite. Why? Because they don't sprawl like lizards.
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>>4727420
TO MAKE FUCKING MONEY, RETARD. This has been explained to you 500 million times. These fossils are dug up by peasant farmers. A doctored fossil will fetch about 1,000 times more money than a real one.
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>>4727611
So, why make feathered fake dinosaurs then instead of faking scaly ones or producing a whole bunch of Piltdown men?
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>>4727610
>this is a sprawling animal and it has limbs that indicate this.
If sprawling is an issue, then why did you include a chameleon in your picture? You know that they are sprawlers too, right?
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>>4727607
That's because Engh is a contrarian and only cares about his personal cuture "war" with imaginary rightoid boogiemen. Picrel is made by someone who, understanding that while birds are technically Therapods, understands that the VAST majority of extinct Therapods were wildly different and most likely didn't resemble them much outside of minor postural similary.
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>>4727621
*similarities
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>>4727534
Noice.
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>>4727614
Why do you come on the internet and pretend to be more retarded than you are? Because of western contrarians realizing that tabloid shit sells their papers more than honest science. Hence the replication crisis. This has also been told to you many times.
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>>4727620
You just go ahead and keep bouncing between cherry picked arguments and think you're right. Dinosaurs will never be fat, sweaty.

>>4727621
Fred's good, but those hands are wrong. Dinosaurs had more backwards facing palms than that. Carpenter was wrong.
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>>4727641
>but those hands are wrong.
they aren't, all that we know about their arms anatomy point to that being their rest position
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>>4727491
no retard Bird are as much reptiles as humans are mammals
you just don't know how phylogeny works
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>>4727512
you forgot that dinosaurs aren't crocs and lizards? they'd never behave the same at all
and birds usually don't prey on megafauna, which are the main drive for organized hunting, so they didn't need to develop that behavior.
most theropods (at least in the cretaceous) should have had a bird-level intelligence too, meaning that definitely they were over the frolicking of reptiles and could have social behavious. pack hunting to bring down the occasional big-ass/heavily defended prey doesn't seem too far fetched
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>>4727641
Explain how the arms are wrong. "They JUST ARE, OKAY???" doesn't count.
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>>4727653
They are. Theropods don't have palms that face inward. That was based on Carpenter's incorrect reconstruction of Allosaurus arms. He wrongly assumed the bones must have just been attached to each other as if they were lain flat on a table. But we know from crocodilians that that isn't how their bones were attached at all. We also have tracks from from other dinosaurs like Hadrosaurs that have the same diagonal, but mostly forward facing hand position. See pic for how crocodilian hand bones are ACTUALLY connected in the living animal.
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>>4727700
This is what the bones look like when you lay them out though. You would never know they were oriented as they are in the living animal if you just laid the bones out on a table.

ALL information we have on the position of dinosaur front limbs points to theropods having hands mostly oriented forward, with a slight diagonal orientation from ~10-45° variation from forward:

Arguments FOR theropod hands being oriented correctly:
- Non saurischians like Ceratopsids & Hadrosaurs also have this mostly forward but slightly diagonal hand position
- Trackway from what is likely Acrocanthosaurus (already posted) show that they would have raked in a nearly "bunny hands" position (heaven forfend!)
- Crocodilians have this hand position now - combined with Ornithischian evidence, this argues strongly for a basal trait.
- You LITERALLY have to break the wrists of theropods like Dromaeosaurs to force them into "bird natural" hand positions.

Arguments AGAINST theropod hands being oriented correctly and making them palm inward, or god forbid upside down:
- Chickens.
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>>4727654
That's not how that works. I can understand why you don't get it since you're a cladist retard. You see, when a group of organisms differentiates enough from its ancestors, we group them in a separate category. That's how we keep things neat and tidy. You can do that AND have a larger group that includes both. Like saying "Vertebrate" for all animals descended from bony fish. You don't have to call everything a fish. Birds are archosaurs which is fine because archosaur is a broad group. They are NOT dinosaurs because dinosaurs have specific characteristics that birds lack such as cold blood (yes, dinosaurs were cold-blooded, mesothermic at best, yes even the feathered ones).
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>>4727690
Done. In detail.
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>>4727702
Weren't Acrocanthosaurus arms more flexible than other theropod dinosaurs? Like I remember this being something that was prominent feature along their high spines.
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>>4727700
Btw this is the other image of crocodilian hand bones lain out on a table. TOTALLY different from how they look in the living animal.

>>4727708
Oh boy here comes the cope. I don't see any reason to believe that other than mainstream paleofags got proven wrong again.
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>>4727709
I literally just asked a question, what the fuck is there to cope?
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>>4727708
Yes, they were
https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1017/S0952836905006989
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>>4727712
Dude, you are dealing with an obsessed schizo who is mad that dinosaurs apparently looked different from ones shown in his favorite childhood movie.
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>>4727712
Don't play innocent trying to defend the mainstream with bullshit ad hoc theorizing.
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>>4727713
I promise you they weren't.
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>>4727713
Btw, someone can't even read an abstract:

>Pronation and supination are precluded by immobility of the radius relative to the ulna. Motion also seems to be restricted at the wrist. The palm faces medially, and digital movement is subtransverse.
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>>4727719
This, of course, is also due to the erroneous assumption that the phalanges are in the same plane as the radius and ulna, which trackways and crocodilians prove is false. That's not how the tendons and ligaments are connected. The plane of the hand and the plane of the radius and ulna are nearly perpendicular, not parallel.
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>>4727705
>when a group of organisms differentiates enough from its ancestors, we group them in a separate category.
not, that is not how it works retard
organisms ate classify accourding with their ancestry and they don't change category just because they become divergent
Birds are dinosaurs

>That's how we keep things neat and tidy.
no, that how you keep thing disjointed and messy

>You don't have to call everything a fish
fish is not a scientific classification

>They are NOT dinosaurs because dinosaurs have specific characteristics that birds lack
no, birds have all the diagnostic traits of dinosaurs

>yes, dinosaurs were cold-blooded, mesothermic at best, yes even the feathered ones).
not according with most data and research into the topic
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>>4727129
80% of Birds are dumb af tho and they're the smartest clade
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>>4727723
>not, that is not how it works retard
Yes it is, retard. You just don't know this because you're twelve and all you've ever known is wikipedo tier woke classification via cladism.
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>>4727717
>Comparing quadrupedal animals to bipedal ones
>>
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>>4727131
well, when a non-mammal invents their own internet, they can say whatever they want on it, until then, mammals rule this planet
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>>4727607
All the fat and folds there does mimic 'modern paleoart' fairly well.
The only thing lacking are the greeblies that weirdos like Engh add to everything that make them look cancerous.
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>>4727420
straight white males: YEAH THUNDER LIZARDS
>umm, akshually, dinosaurs were covered in feathers and engaged in constant homosexual anal sex, which proliferated turbo-aids and was the real reason for the mass extinction
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>>4727674
We gotta use what we have for comparisons.
Dinosaurs are somewhere between Archosaurs and Avians.
Archosaurs and Squamates almost never pack hunt. Avians only very rarely display cooperative hunting strategies.

Nowhere in there, does it seem that there is room for dinosaurs to have evolved the ability to cooperate and pack hunt in a structured manner, and then failed to pass that on to Avian descendants.
Unless you think it only evolved in extinct families and never appeared in the lines that evolved into Avians.

There is potential for modern Avians to pack hunt, eagles could very well go after full grown deer or even moose if they swarmed and worked together. But they never do/will unless it is an opportunistic mobbing of a dead/dying animal.
Crows could hunt raccoons or opossums and other larger mammals in groups, but they never do/will unless it is an opportunistic mobbing of a dead/dying animal.
Just because A.) There are carnivorous/omnivorous predators in an environment, and B.) There are larger potential prey animals in the same environment, does not mean that those predators will cooperatively hunt those prey.
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>>4727737
>comparing related animals with similar traits
Yes, that's what we like to call "taxonomy".
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>>4727707
>I don't have an answer
Thank you for your concession :)
>>
>paleo"schizo" autism thread
Thread hidden
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>>4727137
they like it
helps prevent pests/parasites
keeps them looking cleaner for guests
helps keep them from getting issues based on the smaller scale enclosures that don't totally mimic their natural environment
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>>4727805
And decide to ignore the Birds, literally theropod dinosaurs dinosaurs, in favor of distantly related clade that is crocodilia and dinosaurs who filled an entirely different niche.Just to give you a perspective on how utterly retarded your taxonomic comparisons are, comparing crocodile morphology to dinosaur ones is the same as comparing placental mammal morphology with monotremes.

Why don't you get yourself into a discussion with a fucking paleontologist? Why come here to argue with us? You ain't convincing anyone shit with your pathetic and sub-nigger tier arguments on the most pity topic on the planet earth.
I know why, because you don't have the fucking balls to argue with someone who knows what they're talking about you twat.
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>>4727779
>Dinosaurs are somewhere between Archosaurs and Avians.
avians are archosaurs

>Archosaurs and Squamates almost never pack hunt.
same as mammals, only between 20% and 5% of predators exhibit pack hunting
also Harris's hawk and butcherbird are two bird that practice pack hunting

>and then failed to pass that on to Avian descendants.
birds are just one dinosaur lineage, just because a trait evolve in one lineage don't mean it will evolve in another that occupies a completely different niche

>Unless you think it only evolved in extinct families and never appeared in the lines that evolved into Avians.
maybe because modern birds don't occupy niches where pack hunt is a viable strategy, just like most mammals

>There is potential for modern Avians to pack hunt
and yet no need or pressure for such behavior to evolve, there's no pressure to eagles to go after deer or for crows to go after raccoons
Different from dinos that we know went after bigger prey animals and likely needed to cooperate with each other to bring them down
>>
first time coming to /an/ in years, who is this paleonigger?
>>
>>4727826
Is adamant that dinosaurs from Jurassic Park franchise are the most accurate and everything from the present paleontology is jewishslop.
Makes you think he's trolling but the amount of effort he puts into explaining things he preaches really makes you realize he is fundamentally retarded.
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>>4727821
Birds are the result pf an extreme bottleneck and have selected for insane ammounts of encephalization compared to non-avian dinosaurs. Most large dinosaurian terrestrial predators had a brain the size of a peanut

They were large dumb lizards that spend much time and energy investing in becoming larger and processing more food+reproducing like rabbits than they did in any K selective strategy simply because they dont have the size-body limitation of viviparous animals regarding reproduction
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>>4727844
But sar nooo mesoterm sauropserinos were basically primates and canids saaar
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>>4727773
There isn't much fat on that bird. And keep in mind, birds are not dinosaurs. They're warm-blooded, which means they're likely to store more fat to begin with. Birds also have bizarre anatomy adapted to flight so they have odd proportions and parts of their bodies look "unfinished" without feathers because their feathers are literally taking up room that flesh would be in other animals.
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>>4727902
I would've at least tolerated you if you were such an absolute faggot towards birds.
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>>4727902
>And keep in mind, birds are not dinosaurs.
>They're warm-blooded
So you don't know what taxonomy is
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>>4727607
But that's a man?
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>>4727824
>avians are archosaurs
We're all fish.
There is a 'break' between crocodiles and birds enough to call them something separate.

5-20% of mammalian predators engaging in cooperative hunting is far more significant than literally two bird species that are notable specifically because they might be the only ones to express complex pack hunting behavior.
We can tell that cooperative hunting is something fairly endemic to the mammalian family.

But for Avians, it does not appear to be an ancestral trait, same goes for Crocodilians.
A trait evolving in at most a handful of highly derived descendants does not lend much weight to the idea of it being ancestral to the family.

Birds could occupy those niches, but don't.
There is nothing stopping eagles or corvids from engaging in pack hunting behavior. They're smart enough to do it, and they already engage in hunting behavior. And even can have complex social networks.
They just don't. Because it is a behavior pattern that isn't endemic to birds.

We don't know that for example, Allosaurs regularly hunted healthy adult Sauropods.
We have reasonable evidence to suppose they hunted the far smaller Stegosaurus. But just because they existed in the same environment doesn't mean that they were antagonistic.
As far as I'm aware we don't have many, if any, examples of adult sauropods that have healed injuries caused by Allosaurus or any other North American carnosaurs.
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>>4727902
Doesn't modern evidence point to theropod dinosaurs being semi-warm blooded?
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>>4727124
mammalian hands wrote this article
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>>4727965
Crocodiles having any kind of cerebral cortex makes them the smartest living reptile.
Overall reptiles mostly just suck. They've stuck around because having a glacial metabolism means they don't have to be competitive with mammals to eke out a living.
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>>4727967
>mammalian hands wrote this
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>>4727821
Can you name what the main difference in the hand is between a theropod and a bird? I'll tell you: birds don't fucking have hands. This is like claiming Artiodactyls have flippers because whales do and they're MUCH more closely related than ANY theropod is to ANY living bird. You just like being wrong.
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>>4727906
Cladism isn't taxonomy, sweaty. It doesn't even pretend to be. It can't be because it has no concept of a ranking system.
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>>4727983
you have no idea of what you are talking about
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>>4727124
> A new study suggests
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>>4727962
>There is a 'break' between crocodiles and birds enough to call them something separate.
that's no how it's works, it's like claiming humans aren't mammals

>5-20% of mammalian predators engaging in cooperative hunting
no, it's 5-20% of all known predators, not just mammals

>We can tell that cooperative hunting is something fairly endemic to the mammalian family.
mammals aren't a family and cooperative hunting isn't something endemic to them

>But for Avians, it does not appear to be an ancestral trait, same goes for Crocodilians.
doesn't matter

>not lend much weight to the idea of it being ancestral to the family.
no one claims that it's ancestral to dinosauria you idiot, but that proves that it is a thing that can evolve independently in dinosaur clades

>Birds could occupy those niches
no, they couldn't

>but don't
for the same reason bat's don't occupy many diurnal areal niches, because they are already occupied by more specialized animals

>There is nothing stopping eagles or corvids from engaging in pack hunting behavior.
there's no pressure or intensive to drive them to that strategy

>Because it is a behavior pattern that isn't endemic to birds.
it isn't "endemic" to mammals either
and they don't because theirs no advantage to it giving the niche they occupy

>But just because they existed in the same environment doesn't mean that they were antagonistic
we have fossils with signs of predation

>examples of adult sauropods
why are you fixating on sauropods ?
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>>4727963
no, the evidence points for theropods being warm blooded and for dinos being ancestrally warm blooded
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>>4727963
All dinosaurs actually were likely mesotherms. There have been about 3 or 4 papers trying to assess the homeothermy of dinosaurs and they have conflicting results, but they're all hovering around dinosaurs being mesotherms. Even the suspected feathered ones and possibly even early birds. Sauropods and Hadrosaurs grew quickly. Theropods were some of the slowest growing dinosaurs. Check the chart. These are the growth curves for Tyrannosaurids. By contrast elephants are half-grown by age 10. Probably the best argument against dinosaurs being warm-blooded is that not a damn one of them survived the Cretaceous extinction, but animals that could survive cold or live in marginal tropical habitats DID. Size isn't even an argument because there were tons of small dinosaurs near the end of the Mesozoic. The mainstream even claims a lot of them were digging, which they probably weren't.

Does someone hear a yipping chihuahua?
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>>4727999
"We observe no correlation between atmospheric oxygen concentrations11 and metabolic rates. Inferred ancestral states reveal that the metabolic rates consistent with endothermy evolved independently in mammals and plesiosaurs, and are ancestral to ornithodirans, with increasing rates along the avian lineage. High metabolic rates were acquired in pterosaurs, ornithischians, sauropods and theropods well before the advent of energetically costly adaptations, such as flight in birds."

"Giant sauropods and theropods were not gigantothermic9,10, but true endotherms. Endothermy in many Late Cretaceous taxa, in addition to crown mammals and birds, suggests that attributes other than metabolism determined their fate during the terminal Cretaceous mass extinction."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04770-6
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>>4728001
>ancestral to ornithodirans
First of all, ornithodiran is not a thing. Pterosaurs aren't archosaurs.

>"Giant sauropods and theropods were not gigantothermic9,10, but true endotherms.
Like I said, conflicting results.

>suggests that attributes other than metabolism determined their fate during the terminal Cretaceous mass extinction.
NOPE. Size was the causal factor once the food chain collapsed, but again, not all dinosarus were large. There is no good reason why dinosaurs were "just as good as birds pretty much" but the birds leaved and the dinosaurs ate dirt. And the overwhelming evidence was that cold - LONG cold was the thing that fucked up most species.
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>>4728007
*birds lived
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>>4727420
Just google it, the first thing that comes up is creationist bs, if it had feathers that's a nod to evolution and they don't want that
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>>4727420
Easy, Chinese want glory and to prove they are better scientists than the US. This requires new discoveries, even when made up.
Chinese fossils were frequently derided as hoaxes throughout the 2000's, these hoaxes were never disproven, the accusations just mysteriously stopped in the 2010's. No conspiracy here, of course, just coincidence.
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>>4727983
How the fuck do you expect me to take your arguments seriously when you have not a single clue what taxonomy even is.
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>>4728007
>Pterosaurs aren't archosaurs.
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>>4728007
>ornithodiran is not a thing.
it is the official clade of pterosaurs + dinosaurs

>Pterosaurs aren't archosaurs.
they have all the diagnostic traits of archosaurs

>Like I said, conflicting results
all studies that take molecular date in account point for endothermic methabolism

>Size was the causal factor once the food chain collapsed, but again, not all dinosarus were large
don't explain why many other small animal, including entire mammal and bird lineages also went extinct

>There is no good reason why dinosaurs were "just as good as birds pretty much" but the birds leaved and the dinosaurs ate dirt.
do you know that almost all bird lineages went extinct along the other dinos, right ?

>And the overwhelming evidence was that cold
that don't add anything to your argument
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>>4727779
listen man, truth to be told it's all speculation, we can hardly if at all grasp social behaviour from fossils of any kind, but that's also the point. not to sound like a retarded paleoartist tho
you say that we have to use birds and reptiles as comparison, but they cover extremely different niches from dinosaur. they were megafauna, the niche that is now occupied by MAMMALS. and to add to this they covered that role for almost DOUBLE the time that mammals did. with such a large timeframe, and consequentially a massive amount of environement and evolutionary diversity, there's no reason not to think that dinosaur did evolve pack hunting behaviour, even if just in some groups, for certain environements/prey, for a certan time.
cmparing birds/crocs to dinosaurs is like comparing humans to cows, and arguably there are more similiarities between the latter
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>>4727962
>But for Felids, it does not appear to be an ancestral trait, same goes for Cetaceans.
A trait evolving in at most a handful of highly derived descendants does not lend much weight to the idea of it being ancestral to the family.

>Cats could occupy those niches, but don't.
There is nothing stopping Tigers or Cheetas from engaging in pack hunting behavior. They're smart enough to do it, and they already engage in hunting behavior. And even can have complex social networks.
They just don't. Because it is a behavior pattern that isn't endemic to cats.

this is how retarded you sound
i'm going to ignore all your bullshit from now on
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>>4728169
Humans and cows have many shared behavioral characteristics.
Social structures with defined leadership. Some degree of empathy for the treatment of others. Caring for the young. Communal defense.
We can make assumptions to mammals at large about a predisposition towards communal living and potentially cooperative feeding strategies in predatory species.
Looking at wolves, primates, dolphins, etc., we can say that cooperative hunting is widely dispersed throughout mammals without relying on any one singular example. Outside of predators, we see that structured communal living is endemic to mammals.

When we look at communal avians, we see a predisposition towards non-cooperative feeding strategies.
Flocking is a means of self-defense, more eyes looking for more predators/danger. But it does not turn into pack hunting.
Some have actual structures, others create associations of convenience. It is clear that avians have a totally different concept of socialization compared to mammals.

>>4728171
Felids appear to have largely lost those traits over time.
Lions appear to have redeveloped their cooperative hunting uniquely within the family.
Looking at a phylogeny table, it is clear that the feline ancestor was not a cooperative hunter.
So if we're considering ancient cats like Smilodon or the American Lion, it is unlikely that they engaged in cooperative hunting strategies.

But by looking at mammals as a whole, we can say that it is likely there are latent genetics for cooperative hunting in all felines.
Because its wide prevalence tells us it has to be reasonably ancestral to the entire group.

With Avians, it would have to be that basically all the dinosaurs that did evolve instincts to hunt cooperatively, were all outside of their ancestry. Because it is not a trait that appears repeatedly throughout the family but only in a few exceptional cases.
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>>4728007
Hai David Peters-kun <3
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>>4728169
>there's no reason not to think that dinosaur did evolve pack hunting behaviour
There is actually pack hunting behavior even in todays large reptiles which is shown within varanids and crocdiles. But they're less "pack hunt" and more so "mob", there isn't any strategy in mobbing aside from the eldest and biggest individual going for the first bite. Afterwards it is fair game and even cannibalism is on the table.
Dinosaurs best modern day analogues are the monitor lizards as they are the most active of the cold blooded lizards and the largest lizards come from this said order.
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Holy shit you monkeys are still flinging shit at each other? Lol
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>>4727640
>they could multiply their profits if they could doctor them to make them look like they had feathers
okay but why? i feel like there's a missing bit of exposition here
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>>4728240
it's a paleoschizo thread, he's 90% of the posts
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>>4727123
Everyone has a weakness for blondes
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>>4727079
>37 million year ago
kek kek kekkity kek

Adaption != Evilution (fake ass science)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljVaAbsdrCo
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>>4728181
>behavior=genetics
you are genetically predisposed to be a retard i estimate
also behavior is the easiest thing to "ingrain" in a species genetic
why? because it ISN'T fucking genetics, it's memetics. which work about the same, but aren't tied to the laws of biology
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>>4728102
It's not even that impressive. It's just money.
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>>4728160
I too have visited wikipedo.
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>>4728169
This is completely incorrect. The layperson has absolutely no clue the fucking mountain of information we have on dinosaurs. When it comes to some animals like the Hell Creek fauna, about the only things we DON'T know are what color they were and how Triceratops reproduced. We know tons about their behavior too. We know that all Hadrosaurs were highly social communal nesters. We know that Centrosaurs were herding also (but have no nests), but we also know that Chasmosaurs were likely solitary for most of their lineage. We know T. rex hunted even the very largest of prey because we have healed rex bites on Torosauriform frills. The amount we know about dinosaurs would absolutely boggle the mind of the average peasant. The problem is it's in fashion to play dumb and make shit up now to make money and a name for yourself. And everyone in STEM is doing this shit.
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>>4728341
https://bioone.org/journals/bulletin-of-the-american-museum-of-natural-history/volume-2011/issue-352/352.1/The-Early-Evolution-of-Archosaurs--Relationships-and-the-Origin/10.1206/352.1.full
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>>4728186
At least you know more than most in these threads. Peters thinks Pterosaurs are literally lizards, I don't. Though honestly it's not a totally ill-founded suggestion. Lizards have been around almost as long as reptiles and they've turned into all sorts of wild shit.
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>>4728191
>Wow these animals that have gathered because they're being fed by moonfaced brown thirdies so (((western))) boomers can film the gore sure does prove that komodo dragons are pack hunters!
Faggot. Every time I see one of these images I want to bomb the entire nation of Indonesia.
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>>4728286
(((westerners)))
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>>4728350
Do you have a clue what mobbing is?
I even made the point in the fucking previous post that mobbing isn't exactly pack hunting, its just the gathering of multiple same species carnivores and eating away at the prey without conflict with each other.
And because you hate komodo dragons so much, here's a nile crocodiles doing the same in the wild.
https://youtu.be/0a0M2pJ3VVY?t=131
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>>4728348
Honey, I know what the mainstream has to say on the topic more than you do. I promise. The mainstream is wrong. They can't even examine early Pterosauromorph fossils correctly.

https://archived.moe/an/thread/4697431/#q4700408
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>>4728356
I read your comment sort of. And I agree with you. I'm just sick of seeing these stupid "canned gore" shots set up by thirdie peasants and everyone on /an/ jacking off to them.
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>>4728350
Lol. Worst part is that they seem to break the legs of the goats a lot of the time so they can’t run. The Dutch should have kept dicking them down.
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>>4728356
>And because you hate komodo dragons so much, here's a nile crocodiles doing the same in the wild.
https://youtu.be/0a0M2pJ3VVY?t=131
Are you masturbating right now? How small's your dick?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcrexKS8kxA

>>4728360
Of course they do. Makes the gore better for germanic tourists. The literal rot of the world.
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>>4728327
T. rex weren't teaching their offspring.
Dinosaurs largely lacked a cerebral cortex from what we see in brain case scans. Only some derived coelurosaurs potentially had them. And otherwise their palliums were proportionately smaller than modern birds. So even if you point to structural differences making the need for a cerebral cortex to be lesser, they will still not be on the level of modern avians.
They were driven by instinctual and genetically ingrained behaviors. Just like sea turtles landing on beaches to lay eggs. They're not taught to do that, it is pure instinct.

They very likely weren't learners like crows are.
In terms of brain development, outside of exceptions like Troodontids (and even that is potentially questionable), they had brains similar to, or less advanced, than modern crocodilians in structure.
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>>4728358
You legitimately might just be schizophrenic and mentally retarded, lmao. How the fuck does your post disprove pterosaurs being archosaurs when the linage is universally agreed to have emerged during the early triassic. Even the fucking points you post there literally put the Scleromochlus at MOST a relative of Archosauria.

I genuinely thought you might be a troll but at this point, not even god is worth saving you.
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>>4728327
>>4728362
>https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/cne.25453
Theropod dinosaurs had primate-like numbers of telencephalic neurons
>https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/cne.25458
Could theropod dinosaurs have evolved to a human level of intelligence?
>https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/cne.25471
How smart dinosaurs?
>https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/cne.25472
Could a theropod like T. rex have had human-like numbers of neurons?

This is basically the state of the art on Theropod intelligence discussion.
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>>4728370
Missed this one
>https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.01.10.575006v2.full.pdf
How smart was T. rex? Testing claims of exceptional cognition in dinosaurs and the application of neuron count estimates in palaeontological research
Probably some others, too.
It is a live research field.
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>>4728361
What the fuck are you even on about? Is there any other schizo who gets off watching animals getting butchered? I literally just linked the behavior of animals congregating and feeding together which is called a mob.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile#Social_behaviour_and_vocalization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon#Behaviour_and_ecology
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>>4728381
The entire reason these images and videos exist is because there's an entire industry devoted to it. Please stop pretending that nobody is engaging in this sick fucking animal abuse.
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>>4728384
I choose to remain ignorant.
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>>4728444
why is he like this
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>>4728457
Because liking T.rex is an alt right thing.
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>>4728457
Guess it comes from contrarianism against 'white-washed' ecology.
Engh probably watched one of those documentaries where they show crocodiles death rolling wildebeest or orcas playing with seals as a child, and it permanently rewrote the structure of his brain vis a vis nature and brutality.

So nature is good.
But nature is good because it is grotesque and violent and nasty.
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>>4728466
tranny moment
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>>4728358
>Proving yourself wrong
Darling... Respect yourself.
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>>4728474
We proud you finaly got out of your egg !
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>>4728444
You know I never noticed it because I try to ignore this fucking idiot, but Tyrannosaurus as a genus didn't even exist until Deinosuchus was extinct.
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>>4728491
Also there's no good reason for a large crocodile to go after predatory dinosaurs, when their entire hunting strategy is "wait in pool of water for large herd to come by, pick off the one not paying attention". A lone predator is going to be wary.
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>>4728495
Crocodilians will happily eat predators if they get their hands on them. And they eat far more than just large herd animals. I don’t see why a Deinosuchus would be any different.
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>>4728508
Obviously, but this isn't their hunting strategy for the exact reason I said - lone animals are more wary than ones in groups.
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>>4728510
The issue is you are wrong about their hunting strategy. Only really Nile Crocs regularly prey on enormous migratory herds of mammals. Most crocodilians have no trouble whatsoever hunting individuals, and many entirely hunt individual animals rather than herds. Saltwater crocodiles for example don’t have access to large herd animals in australia, and yet they are still the largest crocs in the world.
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>>4728508
>>4728510
>>4728518
The ISSUE is that it didn't fucking exist.
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>>4728542
The issue is that YOU don’t exist
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>>4728518
Salties eat large birds and pigs.
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>>4728548
And dingoes, kangaroos, wallabies, possums, wombats, aboriginals, monitor lizards, snakes, and all sorts of aquatic life. My point is really just that crocodiles don’t primarily feed on herd animals.
The also didn’t have access to pigs until 200 years ago.
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>>4727332
you speak English on an American website :)
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>>4728551
>The also didn’t have access to pigs until 200 years ago
Are you sure about that?
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>>4728584
We’re talking about Australian salties here
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>>4728491
>Tyrannosaurus as a genus didn't even exist until Deinosuchus was extinct
Good thing he said Tyrannosaur and not Tyrannosaurus then
>>4728495
>>4728510
Except they absolutely will eat lone predators and there are remains of theropods with deinosuchus bite marks on them. There's also plenty of videos of crocodiles snatching cheetahs, wild dogs, etc
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>>4727420
Jewish subversion of the Aryan spirit
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>>4727640
meds



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