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> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
> I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
> -- Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-July/005664.html

HAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS NOT A DRILL: PYTHON IS FUCKING KILL!!!
>>
>>66710966
Do you seriously think it will make an actual difference?
>>
>>66710966
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A dictatorship? A federation? I'm not worried ...
>>
>>66710991
Of course it will: he is/was the creator and leader of the project, and he is not even going to appoint a successor.

What will happen basically is that there will be various slightly incompatible forks of Python.
>>
>>66711065
>What will happen basically is that there will be various slightly incompatible forks of Python.
So exactly the same as it is right now?
>>
>>66711065
>he is/was the creator and leader of the project
Well, what was the last, say, 3 changes or veto'd things he did?
>>
>After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
spare you the list of medical issues.)
So is this is a some subtle "I have cancer and don't want to spend what can be the last years of my life dealing with this bullshit" notice?
>>
>>66710966
So magically every python code ever written is replaced by another language? How is it kill?
>>
>>66711006
Dictatorship/aristocracy tends to lead to better decisions in programming projects as long as the people in change have technical skill and the guts to resist bad decisions. But they pay for it in sweat and tears, as seen here with Guido. A democracy will quickly degrade any piece of software into a kitchen sink. Anarchy is already implemented: you can always fork and leave.
>>
>>66711081
No, various forks of CPython. The current alternative interpreters are used for domain specific tasks and they don't generate any kind of conflict in the community.

This basically means various different "standards", similar to CL.
>>
>>66711159
>Anarchy is already implemented: you can always fork and leave.
T-that's not how anarchy works.
>>
>>66711142
>being this new
>>
>>66711194
It is completely voluntary association.
>>
>>66711185
We are still dealing with the whole Python 2 vs Python 3 bullshit 10 years after it was released, tho
>>
>>66711220
Yes, but voluntary society isn't something exclusive to anarchists. Voluntary association is a concept used by virtually all forms of communists and socialists, not just anarchists. Saying people forking=anarchist is reductive to the point of absurdity.
>>
>>66710966
The strange thing is that PEP 572 is quiet unnecessary. It adds nothing worthwhile and it goes against established Pythonic philosophy of making readable code.
>>
>>66710966
who cares, python was kill long time ago anyway. the only people using it are low wage slaves who MUST use it to complete their codemonkey tasks
i cant even name a single useful program written in python, its all just glue logic on top of other stuff
meh, rip
>>
>>66711159
>Anarchy is already implemented: you can always move into the woods
the absolute state of /g/ posters...
>>
>>66711295
I'm just saying that forking is a kind of anarchy, not trying to imply it is the only kind or that it is something that happens only under anarchy. Voluntary association is not exclusive to the left, either; it's popular across the political spectrum for good reason.</offtopic>
>>
So... what language should I learn now?
>>
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>>66711343
>i cant even name a single useful program written in python
youtube-dl
>>
>>66711375
Java
>>
>>66711343
Mathfags, graphics designers and other retards that can't into a real programming language still use it, tho.
>>
>>66711268
barely true, most big corps are on 3 now
>>
>>66711343
>i cant even name a single useful program written in python
Dropbox.
>>
>>66711343
>i cant even name a single useful program written in python
The entire Hulu backend

I'm not even joking, I know somebody who worked in Hulu until last year and their shit is still running on Python
>>
>>66711343
calibre?
civilization 4 and above?
>>
PYTHON IS SHIT
>>
>>66711409
Few actual mathematicians use Python on academia: R, Julia, MATLAB and Mathematica are much common nowadays.
>>
>>66711375
learn C and contribute to the FOSS community.
pros:
>never have to leave your basement again
cons:
never leave your basement again
>>
>>66711417
Calling the Dropbox client useful is really a stretch. It eats memory like hell and only exists because Dropbox can't into websites and this would one of the really few cases where I am ok with webshit.
>>
>>66711417
>Dropbox
>>66711429
>Hulu
literally who?

>>66711438
>civilization 4 and above
the script parsing engine is not the game, just like unrealscript is not ut4

>>66711399
ah yes, that one escaped my mind, but i wonder how many users it has, probably not too many
>>
>>66711417
>Dropbox
boomers fuck off
>>
>>66711343
reddit :^)
>>
>>66711343
portage
>>
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>>66711510
>but i wonder how many users it has, probably not too many
I use it every day. I haven't watched a Youtube video in my browser in years, I just plug links into mpv and that calls youtube-dl and away it goes. It obviously gets enough users to warrant constant updates to fix its ability to scrape sites that stop working, so I know I'm not the only one who does this.
>>
>>66711632
Python is leddit tier though.
>>
>>66711343
>I wonder what important software is written in Python. I could research it myself, but that would be work... I know! I'll troll /g/ into telling me.
>>
>>66711652
i said useful

>>66711669
>needing to do research to find obscure software that was written in Python
i dont think you opinion in this matter holds much value
>>
>>66711690
>Feeeeeeed meeeee
>>
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Daily reminder that 2019 will be the year of Lua:
>no GIL bullshit
>not bloated
>superior ABI design and FFI architecture
>consistent and created by actual computer scientists
>>
>>66711695
>still thinks im trolling
in fact you are helping make my case, so idk whats your angle but its failing miserably

>inb4 hook
nah, its ok, ive dealt with py 2&3 shit long enough
>>
>>66710966
fucking finally
>>
>>66711740
>UFRJ
>actual computer scientists
Lol. The only thing Brazil can do well is play football.
>>
>>66711740
lua isn't going to replace golang
>>
>>66711343
portage
>>
>>66711769
especially that go is heading straight into oblivion
https://github.com/ksimka/go-is-not-good
>>
apology for poor english
where were you when python is kill?
I was at home drink brain fluid when Guido call
"python is kill"
"no"

and you?
>>
>>66710966
all pentest tools written in Python.
>>
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>So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A dictatorship?
background on this? why is so assmad?
>>
>>66711740
Guido von Rossum is an actual computer scientist. I like Lua, but it lacks Python's batteries and libraries and handles nil in tables funny. When looking to replace Python, for web development I'd try Elixir and Clojure and for command line utilities one of the many natively compiled languages with automatic memory management.
>>
>>66711793
metasploit is ruby

>>66711776
i said useful
>>
>>66711769
Golang is literally shit that creates unmaintainable code.
>>
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#a-numeric-example

Am I going crazy, or is this PEP not pretty reasonable?

Why were pythonistas so mad about it?
>>
>>66711822
Name three useful programs.
>>
>>66711817
>Clojure
Enjoy your JVM hell...
>>
>After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
>that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
>spare you the list of medical issues.)

F
>>
>>66711834
It's highly okay.
>>
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>>66710966
Rest in piss pythonisas.
>>
>>66711834
Because they are brainlets "muh pythonic way hurrr" cult followers.
>>
>>66711836
windows media player
gnu nano
safari
?
>>
>>66711841
What's hellish about it?
>>
>>66711877
>>>/d/
>>
>>66711798
>background on this? why is so assmad?
Not enough pateron dollars.
>>
>>66711893
>out of arguments
ok
>>
>>66711882
user=> *e
#<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: FOO (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)>
user=> (.printStackTrace *e)
java.lang.Exception: FOO (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5440)
at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5391)
at clojure.core$eval.invoke(core.clj:2382)
at clojure.main$repl$read_eval_print__5624.invoke(main.clj:183)
at clojure.main$repl$fn__5629.invoke(main.clj:204)
at clojure.main$repl.doInvoke(main.clj:204)
at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:422)
at clojure.main$repl_opt.invoke(main.clj:262)
at clojure.main$main.doInvoke(main.clj:355)
at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:398)
at clojure.lang.Var.invoke(Var.java:361)
at clojure.lang.AFn.applyToHelper(AFn.java:159)
at clojure.lang.Var.applyTo(Var.java:482)
at clojure.main.main(main.java:37)
Caused by: java.lang.Exception: FOO
at user$eval1.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424)
user/eval1 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
clojure.lang.Compiler.eval (Compiler.java:5998)
clojure.lang.Compiler.eval (Compiler.java:5965)
clojure.core/eval (core.clj:2652)
clojure.core/eval (core.clj:-1)
clojure.main/repl/read-eval-print--5575 (main.clj:178)
clojure.main/repl/fn--5580 (main.clj:199)
clojure.main/repl (main.clj:199)
clojure.main/repl-opt (main.clj:257)
clojure.main/main (main.clj:350)
clojure.lang.Var.invoke (Var.java:361)
clojure.lang.Var.applyTo (Var.java:482)
nil
>>
>>66711836
>Name three useful programs.
1. pywal
2. screenfetch
>>
>>66711919
That is firmly Clojure's flaw, not the JVM's. JRuby and Kawa don't have it.
>>
>>66711902
>patreon
wait, what? and why?
>>
>>66711185
>>66711065
If it happens, expect PyPy to rise.
>>
>>66710966
>Be Python
>Python 2.x everything was perfect, the language made sense, and everything was fine.
>Become the most prevalent language in mathematics, linux scripting, simple A.I and teaching
>Books written about how great python 2.x is
>become a celebrity among programmers
>Python 3 gets born
>Everyone says python 3 is the future
>kills compatibility
>3.2 is incompatible with 3.6
>2.7 is incompatible with anything 3.x
>Most python 3 code is useless
>People still use python 2.7
>Apple and linux default to 2.7
>people still cry that 3.x is the future, even at its late version builds
>Python 3.8 coming soon
>Creator says "Fuck this shit nigga I'm out"
The only good python was 2.7, can't think of anyone that uses 3.
>>
>>66711509
>only exists because Dropbox can't into websites
No, the core value proposition of Dropbox is file system synchronization and history that normalfags can use. I still haven't found a more reliable cross-platform sync client.
>>
>>66712005
>Python 2.x everything was perfect
How serious are you right now?
>>
>>66712055
"if it aint broken then don't fix it"
>>
>>66712055
Pretty serious. Version 2.7 is still the default for most companies. Apple's Mojave still defaults to 2.7. Most distros use 2.7. Windows doesn't have it installed by default, but I'm sure 2.7 is preferred among its users.
>>
>>66711755
>Brazil
>football
7-1
>>
>>66712092
why use languages if you have assembler.

why use assembler if you have circuits.
>>
>>66712005
What? Python 2 was even shittier than Python 3, and that's a lot to say.
>>
>>66712092
unfortunately what they did was
"if it aint broken, fix it until it is"
and now there are multiple version of python that are not code/runtime compatible with each other

>>66712055
he is not wrong, py 3 might seem very nice at first but is a complete train wreck, its not even compatible with itself (to the point that even fucking php puts it to shame)
>>
>>66712118
The fuck does that have to do with anything?
>>
>>66712005
anyone who thinks 2.x is perfect never experienced the wonders of UnicodeDecodeError, guido being gone could be a good thing, i'd love to see pypy's existence acknowledged for once
>>
>>66712143
>py 3 might seem very nice at first but is a complete train wreck, its not even compatible with itself (to the point that even fucking php puts it to shame)
Substantiate your claim.
>>
>>66711375
ruby desu
>>
>>66712159
>anyone who thinks 2.x is perfect never experienced the wonders of UnicodeDecodeError
Fucking this.
>>
>>66712123
Then why is it still used more than 3? With your cancer logic, we should all use something gay like Rust.
>>
>>66712159
>>66712182
Thirded, working with unicode on 2.5 was just a pain in the ass
>>
>>66712168
stuff made to run on python 3.0 might not run on latest python 3.x. cant give you a practical example of the top of my head since i quite the whole v3.x shit long time ago
>>
>>66712159
>>66712182
You two just admitted to not being able to program. Thats not hard to fix. At all.
>>
>>66710966
in a dictatorship political opponents get eliminated before they become a problem. Looks like guido was a bad dictator.
>>
>>66712199
2.7 though.
>>
>>66712159
How is 3 any better?
>>
>>66712218
2.6 was supposed to be a just a transition version and 2.7 was made just because people refused to migrate to 3.0, tho
>>
And here I was just about to start learning Python. Already know C++ and C# but I have a project involving computer vision / machine learning (e.g. tensorflow) so I figured knowing Python might be a big boon.
>>
>>66712244
>2.7 is legacy
just...
>>
>>66712243
3 will throw a unicode error, 2 will silently corrupt your string
>>
>>66712151
"if it aint broken then don't fix it"

stop baiting
>>
>>66712274
>use optional thing
>thing has 100 workarounds
>Prefer to leave it broken and ignore fixes
>>
so what now? what language should i learn? will i still get hired if i put python on my resume?
>>
Now that the dust has settled, what language should be the one to replace and fix all the damage that Python have done during this past decade?

These are my candidates:
> Racket
> Idris
> Rust
> Elixir
>>
>>66712318
Python will soon be the next Cobol.
>>
>>66712352
>rust
You just lost all credibility to elect candidates.
>>
>>66712384
Literally faster than C.
>>
>>66712374
all my eggs are in python and R though
what do i do?
>>
>>66712181
Skip the stepping stone and go straight to http://crystal-lang.org/.
>>
>>66710966
>having two assignment operators
making the assignment statement an expression would’ve looked way better than this mess
>>
>>66711740
But arrays start at 1 in Lua. It might actually be a deal breaker for me.

>>66712181
Oh God. Please, no.
>>
>>66712433
>"Hey guys what should replace this light scripting language?"
>"Uhh how about a buggy wannabe version of C that can't even function without breaking over simple things like abstraction."

I hate /g/.
>>
>>66712433
Are now in an era where speed is better than working code?
>>
>>66712208
>>66712305
Did anyone say it was hard to fix or that we didn't bother fixing it? UnicodeDecodeError was brought up in response to the claim that in Python 2.x, I quote >>66712005, "everything was perfect". A pervasive bad default that causes data corruption is the opposite of "perfect".
>>
>>66712556
>>66712575
Feel free to suggest a better language instead of just whining like a faggot
>>
>>66712491
how mature is crystal?
>>
>>66712575
We've been in that era since the invention of C and Unix.
>>
>>66712352
ANSI Common Lisp
>>
>>66712686
Really? Because the last 30 years says otherwise.
>>
>>66711836
>ansible
>sublime text
>eve online
>>
>>66712881
> guix
> shepherd
> curiass
>>
>>66711469
it's used in bioinformatics
>>
>>66712718
only if you are a code monkey
>>
>>66710966
Can you fucking read full letter not the random sentences which tell the fucking nothing.
>>
>>66710966
Why everyone saying it's dead ? The code is still out there. The guy is fucking 62, he just wants to move on.
>>
>>66710966
>Let the """community""" organize itself
Oh shit, it's another Perl 6 episode... RIP Python.
>>
>literally one of the most popular languages in the world
>dead

meanwhile people still use php, delphi/pascal, perl, visual basic, etc.
>>
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>>66712620
What do you suggest? No memes plz...
>>
>>66711469
>Julia more common than Python
the only ones using Julia are Julia devs or undergrads that want to play with a "fancy" language
>>
>>66713146
Perl6 is promoted by Larry-san though
>>
>>66713171
Do people still develop new stuff using delphi/pascal?
Never used perl, but I've heard the guy who created pearl enjoy causing pain to other people with this language.
>>
>>66713291
Perl
C#
JavaScript
Python
Ruby

All of the above are great languages. Not all of them are great in specific situations. A Real Programmer will learn all of them and use the right one at the right moment.
>>
>>66712352
> Racket
bloat Scheme
> Idris
>made last year
come back when more than 50 people use it
> Rust
cannot replace Python
> Elixir
even slower than Python
>>
>>66713291
For web servers: Elixir
For scripting: Lua and Guile Scheme
For science: R + Jupyter Notebook
>>
>>66712620
Tell us what you don't about Python first
>>
>>66713444
> Idris
It's older than a year and more than 50 use it
>>
>>66713472
*you don't like
>>
>Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also covered by the CoC).
>Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership is closed (limited to core devs).
Wew. He's deliberately set up the community to go full Hunger Games over identity politics.

Let the games begin.
>>
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>>66713436
>>66713459
>>
>>66712352
H A S K E L L
A
S
K
E
L
L
>>
>>66712108
5 WCs retard...
>>
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>>66713291
Haskell
>>
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>>66713444
https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/binarytrees.html
> Erlang 7.63 seconds
> Python 92.78 seconds

Even then, the "speed" of Erlang/Elixir is irrelevant because that's not the point of using OTP: parallelism and high scalability is the fucking point.
>>
>>66713522
t. Hue
>>
>>66713567
That's HiPE imbecile. It doesn't even support most of OTP. You could as well be comparing Python using Numba.
>>
>>66713671
lol what? when was the last time you wrote any Erlang code you stupid boomer? 1998? I'm literally using HiPE+OTP every fucking single day without issues
>>
>>66713760
2000s
>>
>>66710966
Wow. What a day. First new MacBook Pro computers, now a changing of the guard for python development.
>>
>>66713780
Many things changed since then, you should really try Elixir: the stupid ruby-like syntax may turn you off at first, but overall it's a pretty decent language.
>>
Its time to start making a todo list of all the changes we can finally make to Python now that its not being cucked anymore by Guido

off the top of my head
-make a unified version of Python that is compatible with both v2 and v3
-make an entirely new module systems and get rid of the pyenv bullshit
-get rid of explicit self in function parameters
-get rid of underscore functions and have better built-in methods like Ruby
-get rid of the __main__() bullshit for running a file
>>
>I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone [...]
https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-on-guido-van-rossum-im-not-glad-hes-dead-but-im-glad-hes-gone/

Stallman is at it again, why is he so fucking unrespectful?
>>
>>66714314
kek almost fell for it
good one anon you made me click
>>
>>66713410
>Do people still develop new stuff using delphi/pascal?
On occasion. Lazarus has an active community.
>>
>>66711343
Calibre
most of GIMP
the AWS and Azure CLI tools
Synapse (first Matrix homeserver, currently being replaced with a golang/postgresql homeserver)
Libreoffice Calc scripting
youtube-dl
Qutebrowser
>>
??? who?
>>
>>66714465
also Ansible and Pelican
>>
>>66711782
I was in bed trying to get to sleep.
>>
>feature creep: the language
Seriously, retroactively ditch all the async/await/asyncio shit immediately. py3k was already bloated as fuck years ago and it's just getting worse.
>>
>>66714466
lurk moar
>>
>>66714465
>most of GIMP
lol nice try anon:
> C 95.0% Scheme 1.0% Makefile 1.0% C++ 0.8% Python 0.5% M4 0.4% Other 1.3%
>>
>>66712352
Racket and Idris are too academic. No libraries, not enough eyes to fix bugs. Rust isn't a replacement for Python, it's an (actual, unlike Go) replacement for C++. Erlang/Elixir are the world's best languages for writing highly reliable medium-sized soft-real time distributed services, and nothing else. I don't love its syntax, but the most promising new contestant is probably Pelfgny.
>>
>>66710966
Is it a serious thing or a /g/ meme?

I'm learning how to python and this thread got me worried.
>>
>>66714591
The language continues to exist.
Only future development is uncertain.
Maybe we get something awesome.
Maybe we don't.
>>
>>66714558
what level of autism is this?
>>
>>66711106
>"I have cancer and don't want to spend what can be the last years of my life dealing with this bullshit"
here's a plan
>take over python
>introduce curly brackets for code blocks
>Rossum has a painful death filled with rage and remorse.
>>
>>66714635
>Only future development is uncertain.
Is python going to join ranks of borland based languages (pascal, delphi) and the basic family in foreseeable future?
>>
>>66714591
Some people are unironically nervous about what will happen to the core dev team internal organization because there was literally no plan for this shitshow, so it could make things a bit slower for a while but that's it, at least in my opinion.
>>
>asynchronous I/O as a language built-in
>%-strings, .format(), f-strings
>getopt, optparse, argparse
Anyone remember a certain zen that mentioned something along the lines of doing one thing well and not in any other way? Man, if only Guido followed his own set of rules, maybe he would still be here today.
>>
>>66714460
>Lazarus has an active community.
Can confirm, I'm still on-board on that train for personal, more machine oriented projects, with no intention of leaving. FreePascal rocks!
>>
>>66714674
I think it will be more like Perl: back in the early 0s almost everybody loved Perl and how you could easily develop CGI-based web applications and get everything CPAN, and now only oldfarts uses it.
>>
>>66713355
the only BDFL worse than Guido
>>
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> yeah, good ol python2, it never fails *snap* you see? you can use a while-loop for that, yup *snap* just dont forget to set your pyenv heh
>>
>>66714460
the lazarus ide has some absolutely god tier cross platform ui toolkits, it's almost a shame that it's not written in a better language
>>
Python is in a bad spot. Slow as shit. Adding more useless bloat. Never recovered from splitting into two languages. Doesn't compile to binaries. Concurrency is complete shit compared to Rust/Go/Elixir. RIP.
>>
>>66711652
>>66711776
>calculating dependencies...
>>
>>66710966
>I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.

just like a redditor, can't fuck off forever
>>
>>66711740
I have just played NotTetris since a long time. It's made in Lua with LOVE. Cool shit.
>>
>>66715357
lol I took that more as a formality, like when you quit a job and you tell your boss/manager that if they need anything they can send you an e-mail, but they know in reality you will never respond
>>
>>66715422
he's going to be there every day of the rest of his life, because the fact is: he has no actual life
>>
>>66711740
The difference between 5.2 and 5.3 is even worst than that of Python 2 and 3. Indexed from 1. Garbage.
>>
>>66712352
Unironically PureScript+WASM
>>
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>>667113
Django
Flask
TensorFlow
Ansible
Dropbox
>>
nobody will miss python
>>
It literally says right that there is a dev team. He didnt even do anything for development, if you guys actually read his message. Nothing will change, hes just leaving it behind. The dev team will continue developing
>>
>>66715701
Idris* and WASM as it's much easier
>>
>>66715032
This but unironically.
>>
>>66716119
How so?
>>
>>66710966
You are a retard
>I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>>
>>66716060
>>66716192
Stop crying, you know very well that this may be fucking chaotic: at work our team already started considering porting the whole code base to golang because of this shit.

Do you think GvR is leaving because he's just "tired"? don't be delusional, this is the fucking end of the road for Python.
>>
>>66716249
xd
>>
>>66710966

Python 2 already werks fine, it doesnt need any changes anyway
>>
>>66716340
t. 30 year old boomer sipping Monster
>>
>>66716359
*sips*

You are probably a salty JS zoomer developer
>>
Hopefully a good amount of people move to Perl.
>>
>>66716377
Almost there, but I don't need to touch JavaShit because I have Elm.
>>
>>66716060
>It literally says right that there is a dev team. He didnt even do anything for development, if you guys actually read his message. Nothing will change, hes just leaving it behind. The dev team will continue developing
Ive been hearing people complain for almost 30 years that Guido is holding back Python with a lot of weird design decisions. Now that Guido is not controlling development were going to see major changes happen that people have been waiting a long time to happen
>>
>>66711375
C. Fuck off with your Pyshit
>>
>>66711781
LOL if you included everything in that list at the end, you'd have an absolute clusterfuck of a language. You can compile a list at least as long for every language on the market. Go serves me extremely well, but it does need generics. I fucking hate code generation (look at what it's done to C#).
>>
>>66710966
AHAAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
>Pajeet suicide rate reaches 100%
>>
>>66714747
The Japanese use it still, but in a surprisingly modern way. I picked it up a while back when it was shilled as the less popular but just as great choice for web dev here on /g/ and I never looked back
>>
>>66716416
This.
>>
Why is everyone being so retarded?
>>
>>66716460
Welcome newfriend
>>
>>66713459
>For science: R + Jupyter Notebook
Python was touted as a replacement for R as it has a much wider integration which is required in production data science/engineering kinds of tasks.

As Python is going to degenerate into a complete mess and R is basically unworkable in production, probably the only solution would be to reboot something like Incanter on Clojure. This sits on the JVM so it can integrate with enterprise tech stacks and it can be easily put into production which was the one thing that R couldn't do which Python could.

Clojure isn't a far leap from R either. As someone who has dabbled in it, it's about as difficult as Python to pick up in real terms.
>>
>>66716423
It's not just the language, the tooling also needs a lot of work: when the fuck are you going to finish your stupid package versioning proposal? in fucking 2030?
>>
>>66710966

Python is comfy I hope you fucking pajeets dont fuck it up and start creating frankesteins of it, I just imagine...

>AIthon, Python for Machine Learning!
>Scithon, Py for science!

Hold me anons
>>
R A C K E T
A
C
K
E
T
>>
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>>66716513
I like Python. It was my first language. But after a while i found it.. lacking somehow. Turned out what I really wanted was LISP.
>>
>>66711919
this.
>>
>>66716488
I really like clojure but its nowhere near as easy to pick up as python is.
>>
>>66716703
Lein has been improving and there have been efforts by the CIDER team to improve the tooling.

I wouldn't let the JVM problems worry you in adopting Clojure. It's definitely workable if you are prepared to persist with it.
>>
>>66715567
>Indexed from 1. Garbage.
mathlet btfo
>>
>>66716809
I love clojure honestly. I dont even know why, passed a coding test for a startup using it as their backend. Hoping I get a chance to work in the language professionally
>>
>>66710966
good riddance. Python 4 should be statically typed compiled multi threaded language, oops that was golang.
>>
>>66716806
What do you find difficult?

Even the data structures are similar to Python. The core ones in Clojure are dictionaries and lists which even use the same syntax; {} for dictionaries and [] for lists.

The Java interop can be tricky at times, but IMO it's easier than working with OOP Python as the documentation for Python has always been bad (no JavaDocs).
>>
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>isn't even allowed to change his own language
>could die tomorrow, c++ would be fine
is this the power of iso?
>>
>>66716870
>statically typed
Clitists were a mistake
>>
>>66716881
Nothing difficult, its just objectively harder to learn. you could teach python to a gorilla if you needed to.
>>
>>66713049
I know I am late for this, but most "useful" program in bioinformatics usually are in c, c++, and java. Researchers use python only to glue those useful stuffs together.

Heck, I would say R has a bigger presence in bioinformatics field.
>>
>>66716828
You're standing in place from position 0. How many steps have you taken? None, that's right. So why label it as "Steps: 1"?
>>
>>66716857
Just watch the data space.

LISP languages provide the best flexibility and performance in this space, so it's only a matter of time before they are more widely used here.

Clojure was very heavily employed in this space before Scala upstaged it with Spark and Python attracted everyone with it's ML libraries. However, now that everything is API based rather than language specific, people will find it's so much easier to work with Clojure's syntax to get things done rather than Scala or Python's which can't leave OOP alone.
>>
>>66711065
>What will happen basically is that there will be various slightly incompatible forks of Python.
>I have no idea how FOSS projects work and I'm speaking out of my asshole, oh Steve please plug my asshole
>>
>>66717044
Im deciding between a python gig and a clojure gig. Python gig pays more but clojure is way more fun...
>>
>>66711740
>created by actual computer scientists
>arrays indexed from 1
That joke was not even funny, anon.
>>
>>66717096
>slightly incompatible
Look at the mess than Python2 and Python3 compatibility is with a single guy running it.

Imagine now 10 different people with their own vision about what they think Python should be.
>>
>>66711781
Wow, someone on Github made a list. That must mean Go is bad. Some random person on Github is clearly smarter than someone who helped create the OS running most of the computers in existence.
>>
>>66711937
useful, not ricershit
>>
>>66717139
The Clojure gig would be similar to the Scala gigs where you'd be expected to do some things in Java and other things in Clojure.

It wouldn't be a bad experience if the project is interesting. If it didn't work out, you could always fall back on Java and get an enterprise job for $$$.
>>
>>66712600
No, see, the only reason you would ever run into encoding problems is if your code was wrong in the first place. You're admitting to writing incorrect code and blaming Python for not enabling your lack of intelligence.
>>
>>66711336

Lol, what bumfuck realm are you from?

Having inline assignment is great for regex checks so you don't have to make a dumb temp variable just so you can evaluate it.
>>
>>66717162
>Look at the mess than Python2 and Python3 compatibility is with a single guy running it.
What year is it where you live? I'm not aware of any new code being written in Python 2 in years.
>>
>>66717232
>What are legacy codebases?
Backwards compatibility is the only reason MS still is in business.
>>
>>66711375
Go is being used in a ton of spots now.
>>
>>66717246
Actually, no MS is mostly in business because of market share. Once a critical number of people leave, all the users and developers are going to rush to Unix and MS will drop through the ground in a year (mostly to allow contracts to run out, since most of MS's business comes from business licenses and support).
>>
>>66717246
>What are legacy codebases?
Legacy codebases don't have any issues with Python3 compatibility, because they're not using it. That's why I specified "new code".
>>
>>66717272
>market share
Why do they have market share? Maybe it's because people can use the shit they made 10 years ago still.

>this is the year of MS's downfall and the rise of unix
That old chestnut. Unix will always be a niche for power users and developers. Apple is the closest to Unix is getting to the mainstream and even that is relegated to certain niche users in its own right.
>>
>>66717272
you're delusional and know nothing about windows or unix
>>
>>66717307
>Maybe it's because people can use the shit they made 10 years ago still.
no, they really shouldn't. just because they can, doesn't make it is ok.
>>
>>66711106
whats the matter?
just
import cure
lmao
>>
>>66716887
deled dis!!!!
>>
>>66717171
Shut the fuck up you retard Plan9 is an irrelevant piece of shit and Golang is no better.
>>
>>66711740
>>no GIL bullshit
Isn't this only relevant on a language that supports multithreading anyway?
>>
>>66717798
Yep. Lua has an no-op lock by default and isn't thread safe unless you define one. But there are solutions like https://github.com/torch/threads that aren't bad
>>
>>66711343
gentoo
>>
>>66710966
It's finally going down the shitter.
>>
>>66716995
>Heck, I would say R has a bigger presence in bioinformatics field.
It does, at least here in Seattle.
>>
>>66710966
ignore /thread
>>
>>66711375
Become a smug haskeller
> sense of superiority
> never have to do any actual work
>>
>>66711375
Nim. It's Python done better.
>>
>>66711781
>https://github.com/ksimka/go-is-not-good
>go is bad because no OOP
There is plenty to criticize about Go, but lack of POO is not it.
>>
>>66711343
fucking google
>>
>>66714406
>you made me click
>almost fell for it
>>
>>66711510
You are dismissing Dropbox and Hulu so you are either a retard or a troll. Stop posting please
>>
>>66711343
Qgis
>>
>>66715328
>has to consider a million different flags
>which may block eachother
>may require different flags
>or pull in additional packages
>account for both forward and reverse dependencies
>gee why's it slow
>>
>>66711343
Hydrus Network
>>
>>66720299
It would still be 10 times faster simply naively rewriting it in a compiled language.
>>
>>66720732
It uses a lot of native code already, and the actual python code portion is compiled bytecode, which is much faster than handing the source files to the interpreter directly.
>>
>>66711159
Glad I never took the time to learn Python. The founder sounds like an attention whore seeking, cancerous faggot.
>>
Who hyped for Python 4?
>>
>>66717307
It comes on everyone's computer. Most people don't know what an OS is or how to install one. That's it.
>>
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>java wins yet again

/g/ cucks seething lmoa
>>
Just read PEP 572. What a fucking nightmare.
>>
>>66712352
javascript/typescript.

(its actually good these days guys, I promise)
>>
I started programming like half a year ago and I've never touched anything but python. How hard is it to switch language? How fundementally different are they? I don't want to feel like I'm starting over all over again
>>
>>66721016
just start learning javascript. you will need anyway at some point and at least you will know to different it feels. shouldnt be all that different but it will get you closer to C style langauge flavor.
>>
>>66711343
yum
>>
>>66712352
Dart
>>
True programmers use HolyC
>>
>>66716488
R is basically infix lisp, so I agree.

But R is fine for production and integrates fine though, I don't get where that idea came from. The company I used to work for actually started porting R shit to Python and then went back because it was so terrible.

I personally believed that Python was touted as a replacement for R simply because data shit was becoming a meme and R is too hard for pajeet.
>>
>>66711006
So basically we're Ready Player One now
>>
>>66721319
No job schedulers, connection with data pipelines in Java pipelines is a duct tape job, issues bundling applications (no jars possible), etc.
>>
>>66710966
why python is deprecated if Guido leaves?
I don't understand why this is a bad thing
what will happen to python then?
should linux encourage other scripting language over python then? (inb4 bash)
>>
>>66713558
Haskell is a meme.
>>
>>66710966
> PEP 572
What was the point? Did he tried to unretard retarded people by language modifications? Maybe he should take a vacation after all.
>>
>>66711343
Deluge
>>
>>66710966

Ruby 3x3 with JIT compilation will be here in 2020 and hopefully finish off Python for good.

Good bye snek, you will not be missed.
>>
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>>66710966
THE AGE OF JAVASCRIPT FINALLY HAS COME
>>
>>66719616
>Nim
This. Nim is the best alternative to Python right now.
>>
>>66717145
Mathematical sets start with 1. It's just programming brainlets think it's too much effort to make memory mapped arrays start with 1, without losing one memory slot - not that it even matters nowdays. Pro tip: just do arr = mem - sizeof ( type ). There, 1-based arrays for no penalties whatsoever.
>>
>>66717171
>someone who helped create the OS running most of the computers in existence
and who would that be?
>>
>>66712433
Cherry picked bench. The only one where rust runs acceptably. The code uses "unsafe" our of the ass. And the benchmark is mostly IO load, so shitty C runtime puts a dent in it's results.
>>
>>66719616
>>66723294

var
letter: char = 'n'
lang = "N" & "im"

proc foobar(z: array[0..3, int]) =
z[5] = 5 # Error: Cannot assign to z
echo z[5] # Error: Index out of bounds.

proc addSugar(amount: int = 2) =
assert(amount > 0 and amount < 9000, "Crazy Sugar")
for a in 1..amount:
echo(a, " sugar...")



>dat syntax
Fucking D R O P P E D
>>
>>66710966
SNEK STATUS: STEPPED ON
>>
>>66711343
This
>python is the EXCEL/VB of script languages
>>
>>66711375
gentoo
>>
>>66723344

It's about conventions.
Basically Arrays point to a certain place in memory and the index is simply an offset.
So when Array "arr" has the Adress "0xAAAA00" and stores integers of two bytes, then:
arr[0] = *arr = 0xAAAA00
arr[1] = *(arr + 1) = 0xAAAA02
arr[2] = *(arr + 1) = 0xAAAA04

..and so on.


You should look into assembly to get a better understanding of how CS works.
>>
>>66723569

Err.. it should be:
arr[2] = *(arr + (2 * [size of int])) = 0xAAAA04


Anyway, you get the message.

By the way that is why in C for "int i" and "int* arr" the following expressions return the same result:
> arr[i]
> i[arr]
>>
>>66711469
Please leave Julia alone. She is pure. I don't want her touched by code monkeys.
>>
>>66723478
>boohoo my boomer language ain't the fastest anymore :(
Stop being a faggot and learn Rust
>>
>>66723569
>unironically thinking that zero-indexed arrays is a "convention"
How new are you?
>>
>>66712159
Why should 3 be better at this? Serious question.
>>
>>66712274
I smell bs
>>
Was anyone here at #python-dev last night? There was a heated discussion about project governance: some core devs wanting a "triumvirate" and others a "democracy"...

I'm starting to get a bit anxious about all this situation desu
>>
>>66723629

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering

"Martin Richards, creator of the BCPL language (a precursor of C), designed arrays initiating at 0 as the natural position to start accessing the array contents in the language, since the value of a pointer p used as an address accesses the position p + 0 in memory. Canadian systems analyst Mike Hoye asked Richards the reasons for choosing that CONVENTION. (...)

E. Dijkstra later wrote a pertinent note Why numbering should start at zero in 1982, analyzing the possible designs of array indices by enclosing them in a chained inequality, combining sharp and standard inequalities to four possibilities, demonstrating that to his conviction zero-based arrays are best represented by non-overlapping index ranges, which start at zero, alluding to open, half-open and closed intervals as with the real numbers. Dijkstra's criteria for preferring this convention are in detail that it represents empty sequences in a more natural way (a ≤ i < a ?) than closed 'intervals' (a ≤ i ≤ (a−1) ?), and that with half-open "intervals" of naturals, the length of a sub-sequence equals the upper minus the lower bound (a ≤ i < b gives (b−a) possible values for i, with a, b, i all naturals). "


And to answer your question:
Probably older than you..
;(
>>
>>66723752

It's actually HAPPENING !!1!

\o/ \o/ \o/
>>
>>66715701
>2k18
>not using bucklescript
buckle up, anon
>>
>>66723755
>leddit spacing
>>
>>66723569
Nigger I have more experience with C and assembly than you have experience speaking English. It's just I'm not autisticslly sperging about 1-based arrays. Plus in Lua there's a technical reason for that, first memory slot stores table memory size combined, for array and hash parts. You could still use 0 based arrays, just do `foo[0]=bar` and the only difference is that slot 0 is marginally slower to access because it's in the hash part.
>>
>>66723607
Because C has no arrays, is just syntax sugar. The ptr[offset] notation is converted to *(ptr + offset) which produce the same result either way around.
>>
>>66723897
if (sizeof(int[10]) != sizeof(int*))
puts("arrays are not the same as pointers, read a book nigger");
>>
>>66723897
It's not exactly sugar: https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2009/10/21/are-pointers-and-arrays-equivalent-in-c/
>>
>>66717272
>Once a critical number of people leave, all the users and developers are going to rush to Unix and MS will drop through the ground in a year
This is what loonix fags actually believe. MS pumps money into it and wins.
>b-but my lagdroid phones
Fuck phones. In the future they don't need a standalone os anymore. They just log in over azure cloud.
>>
>>66724126
sizeof ( int* ) * 10 != sizeof ( int* )
No shit genius.
>>
>>66723849

>grasping at straws


Dumb phone poster.
>>
>>66724156
I fucked that up but you get the idea.
>>
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>>66724156
it's even worse than I thought
>>
>>66723344
>WTF
Math sets start with the empty set which is zero.
>>
>>66724139

This is why I hate C.

No matter what you say, there is always that ONE guy who knows some edge case ("Hurr, but in ANSI C 72 you can do this!", "No, with JonathansFunkyCompiler you can do this!") and proves you wrong..
>>
>>66724197
this is why "C is simple" is a fucking myth.
>>
>>66723344
>>66724196
>Mathematical sets start with
they "start with" nothing.
sets are not generally ordered or even countable

tl;dr cs fags should shut up about math
>>
>>66724126

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void) {

int *i;
int arr[10];

if (sizeof(arr) != (sizeof(i) * 10))
puts("Maybe YOU should read a book, idiot");

return 0; // inb4 EXIT_SUCCESS
}
>>
>>66710966
Julia >>>>>>>>>> Python
>>
>>66724139
>It's not exactly sugar
but it is. the page you linked to talks about the different machine instructions generated for pointer-arithmetic on arrays and pointers.

nobody said that arrays and pointers are the same

>>66724197
>this information confuses and enrages me
calm down

>>66724213
but it is simple, it very directly translates down into machine code, and machine code is completely trivial
>>
>>66724304
>// inb4 EXIT_SUCCESS
>unironically using sepples one-line comments
shiggy
>>
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Is there another scripting language which has so many languages which could replace python?
>>
Is it insecure to use Python 2.x, or just a matter of not having new features?
>>
>>66724353

It was bait, anon.
The code also does not what you think it does.
>>
>>66724360
*many libraries
>>
>>66724353
>that boomer that only knows ANSI C's comment syntax
>>
>>66723344
>There, 1-based arrays for no penalties whatsoever.
You still lose a slot, fucking idiot.
Look up how integers in computers work, fucktard.
>>
>>66723344
>>66724196
this is why /sci/ makes fun of us
>>
>>66724249
>zero represents something
ok
>inb4 ordering
implying zero implys ordering
>>
>>66711343
openstack
>>
>>66724196
>Languages that uses 1-indexed arrays:
>Fortran, Julia, Lua, Mathematica, MATLAB, R, Ada, Pascal...

See any pattern anon?
>>
>>66724380
>>66724353
>ANSI comments
>not using #if 0
>>
>>66724360
Perl.
>>
>>66724437
>stats
>math
you really tried
>>
>>66723528
It's Python's syntax. What a language supposed to replace Python will have?
>>
>>66724388
Only if you allocate 2^64 slots. Which you just can't.
>>
>>66723363
Thompson, I think. Big Unix guy.

Go sure does suck. Disappointing.




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