Are quranists real Muslims?
>>17277054yes. but they are midwit muslisms that only care about the text, not realizing that even tho muhammad might be the last ever prophet it does not mean that the word of god is final. especially since th Quran is techincally a compilation made after the prophet died.they just take what's the least disputable version of their faith, it's not absurd, but it's way too basic to be relevant. it's like doing christian theology by re-discussing the birth of jesus on loop.
>>17277094I’ve seen quranists justify eating pork and practicing homosexuality
>>17277136then they are dumbass and no true quranists.and I said that but my post was basically just a copy paste of Shia rethoric.
>>17277054Considering the hadith were all made up centuries later, sure why not
>this is gods perfect word, you need to follow it and only it or go to magic lavaland when you die>expect for these books written by people who claimed they met muhammed and said trust me because god forgot to put some stuff in his book>unless it's the wrong books by people who claimed to meet muhamed, then you also go to magic lava land
>>17277233Yeah the third thing is that’s the part they failed to mention. There’s both Sunni Hadiths and Shia Hadiths and they can’t both be true.
>>17277054>Rejecting Prophet Muhammad PBUHYes.None of them have not even finished the Quran kek.
>>17277265I meant no as they are not real Muslims if they do not follow the Sunnah, not even Shia go this low.
>>17277270remind me is it the sunnis or shia who are currently sucking off american and jewish dick and let americans place soldiers on sacred land?
>>17277275Those """people""" are not muslim and may Allah punish them in hell.
>>17277270Don’t Shias reject Sunni Hadiths in favor of their own hadith collections
>>17277347Yes, but my point is even they do not deny the importance of hadiths.
>>17277354Yeah but why does that matter if they don’t use the same Hadiths, Sunni Hadiths say drinking camel urine is good for your health while shia Hadiths say Mo’s daughter Fatima is a goddess
>>17277405>camel urine is good for your healthThat's out of context, it was only for a specific situation. >Yeah but why does that matterBecause they didn't deny the commandment unlike Quranist.
nothing in the quran suggests hadiths be written, let alone that they're mandatory for belief.
>>17277430>let alone that they're mandatory for beliefFinish the Quran before making statements like this.
>>17277054they're the only real Muslims>God had to reveal the Koran to Muhammad because both other times he tried to reveal his word to people, the prophets' followers corrupted his message after his death>but this time the prophet's followers were actually right and had to add things the prophet forgotcome on
>>17277444I did, which is why I say what I say.
>>17277457>I didThen you would have known there is 91 verses that tells us to follow Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
>>17277054Maybe.
>>17277054What the hell is a quranist? Tell me and I'll answer you.
>>17278056Someone who rejects the teachings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and thinks only the Quran should be used.
>>17278074This makes no sense, since the Quran tells the reader to check the Prophet's guidance.
>>17278056“Muslims” who believe the Quran should be the only source of religious doctrine, ignoring Hadiths like sahih Bukhari as well as any statements of Islamic clergymen
>>17278082>>17278074(59) O you who have believed, obey Allāh and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allāh and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allāh and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.(65) But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muḥammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. https://quranenc.com/en/browse/english_saheeh/4(21) There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allāh an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allāh and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allāh often.https://quranenc.com/en/browse/english_saheeh/33(63) Do not make [your] calling of the Messenger among yourselves as the call of one of you to another. Already Allāh knows those of you who slip away, concealed by others. So let those beware who dissent from his [i.e., the Prophet's] order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment.https://quranenc.com/en/browse/english_saheeh/24(31) Say, [O Muḥammad], "If you should love Allāh, then follow me, [so] Allāh will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allāh is Forgiving and Merciful."(32) Say, "Obey Allāh and the Messenger. But if you turn away - then indeed, Allāh does not like the disbelievers."https://quranenc.com/en/browse/english_saheeh/3The only way for you to be a quranist is if you're an atheist who never read the Quran claiming to be a Muslim.
>>17278056The Muslim version of Protestants with their sola scriptura views. The Muslim version of Catholics is Shia and the Muslim version of Orthodox is Sunni.
>>17278081Exactly may Allah swt guide them.
>>17277265Those are sirah, not hadith collections, and still written well over a century after Muhammad
>>17278110Salafis are the Muslim version of Protestants. Quranists have no parallel in Christianity.
Why should anyone give a shit about the Quran?>Verification not required.
>>17278147Because it's the Word of God. If you're an atheist, you'll not give a fuck, because you're sick. Atheism is a disease.
>>17278140>Source my ass
>>17278153>Because it's the Word of GodNo, it isn't. The Quran isn't the word of God and muhammad was not a prophet.Why should anyone give a shit about the Quran?
>>17278161>t.
>>17278154Those two books are literally titled "Sirah" and "Maghazi" which is a type of sirah, you retard. As for the dates of the authors you can look them up yourselves, they lived into the second half of the 8th century AD.
>>17278163I'm not Christian. Abraham did not receive a covenant with God. Jesus never rose from the dead. Muhammad was not a prophet and did not meet an angel in a cave. Why should anyone give a shit about your dogshit Quran?>Verification not required.
>>17278174Oh so you are living a worthless life KWAB.
>>17277233>expect for these books written by people who claimed they met muhammed and said trust me because god forgot to put some stuff in his bookYou mean>expect for these books written by people who collected stories from people who claimed they heard them from people who claimed they heard them from people who claimed they heard them from people who claimed they heard them from people who claimed they met muhammed and said trust me because god forgot to put some stuff in his book
>>17278239> Hadiths are obviously fake> Quran isn’t enoughIs Islam just obviously false?
>>17278197My life is more valuable than yours.Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God.
>>17278248>My life is more valuable than yours.By living for nothing? HAHAHAHA
>>17278256>By living for nothing?By living for the true God, of who muhammad was not a prophet. Nor was Abraham or Isaac or Jesus. Judaism, Christianity, and islam are false religions followed by the blind who live have no rewards in the hereafter
>>17278260>By living for the true GodWho? Your imaginary friend? Kek.
>>17278282You project. Your God is an imaginary friend, as muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God. The real God talks to me directly. I don't need to listen to the dogshit you believe in as the Quran is not the word of God and muhammad was not a prophet. I get direct conservation with God, unlike you or muhammad.
>>17278290>No uI kek.
>>17278297Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God. This is obvious as the Quran is full of errors and contradictions. I talk directly with God unlike you or muhammad. Why should anyone care about the Quran?
>>17278300>I talk directly with GodI think you need to talk with a psychiatrist, that's a demon bro.
>>17278311Demons don't exist, you dog. Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran isn't from God. Both surah AlHijr and the book of genesis state humans are made of mud. This is false, mud is composed of silicon and aluminum while humans are composed of carbon and nitrogen and oxygen. The middle easterners were morons and though that because their skin color was similar to clay then God sculpted them from clay. They were wrong. Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about and he's not a prophet which is why he repeated the standard and false understanding of human creation. The Quran isn't from God.
>>17278331>Demons don't existThat's your """god""" though?
>>17278335Nope. Try again.Surah Al-Mu'minum is also completely wrong about the formation of humans in gestation and was just copied directly from the incorrect Greek understanding at the time. Again because muhammad was not a prophet and had no idea what he was talking about, and just copied what the learned men at the time thought was happening to gain favor. It's wrong because the Quran doesn't come from God.
>>17278245Yes
>>17277136>>17277160Quran 24:1-6 and 70:30 only use masculine inflections alongside gender-neutral terms like azwaj, in arabic grammer a masculine plural means it can talk about a group of men and women or only men, which means two males can be intimate according to a literal reading of the Quran. That's not the only argument for homosexuality in the Quran, there are many others.
>>17278492>which means>That's not the only argument for homosexuality in the Quran, there are many others
>>17278511
>>17278511>why do you lust...LOL and you dare call this a translation of the Quran."Why" occurs nowhere in the arabic.In fact he says the exact opposite. He says "DO you lust after males and leave the mates (azwaj is gender neutral, shouldn't be translated as wives)..."Then after asking the question he says "bal", which means he answers no to his own question. "bal" always means no after a question. So he's not accusing them of homosexuality but something else (likely raping strangers).
>>17278146Quaranists are Protestants because they reject tradition and they believe in sola scriptura and not any extra sources.
>>17278518>muh hadithNo one serious cares about that but let's say we do.>the one who does it and the one to whom it is doneThis hadith condemns anal sex. I condemn anal sex too, if the death penalty can deter my fellow gays from practicing it, I'm all for it.I'm still waiting for an argument btw.(next you'll try "but if we let the gays live we won't reproduce anymore!" lol)
>>17278530Hey, islam and Christianity don’t have 1:1 denomination equilivant. Shias are compared to csthokics cuz they pray to dead peopl. But Shias think sex is a good thing, unlike cathokics
>>17278529 قَالَ إِنِّى لِعَمَلِكُم مِّنَ ٱلْقَالِينَ قَالُوا۟ لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهِ يَـٰلُوطُ لَتَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمُخْرَجِينَ وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلَقَ لَكُمْ رَبُّكُم مِّنْ أَزْوَٰجِكُم ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ عَادُونَ أَتَأْتُونَ ٱلذُّكْرَانَ مِنَ ٱلْعَـٰلَمِينَ "He said, 'Indeed, I am of those who detest your deed.' They said, 'If you do not desist, O Lot, you will surely be among those evicted.' And you leave what your Lord has created for you of your mates? Rather, you are a people transgressing.' Do you approach men among the worlds?" Faggot lover may Allah burn you in hell.>>17278542>muh hadithSo you reject Prophet Muhammad kafir?
>>17278553Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran isn't from God
>>17278557Lol, the guy living a pointless life is still here kek.
>>17278560>pointless lifeNopeThe Quran doesn't give your life any purpose btw
>>17278553>randomly jumbles the sentences' order for no discernable reasonYou are confused, my friend.Anyway I've already adressed the verse you quoted, find another dalil if you are truthful.>So you reject Prophet Muhammad kafir?Hadiths can't be proven to go back to the Prophet and you are intellectually challenged if you think they do. They are hearsay at best. But I already told you I have no problem with the hadith you quoted, so come back when you've found an actual dalil.
Reminder that there is NO WORD HERE AT ALL that's says "as if" or "as though" or "he thought he saw" etc."حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنِ حَمِئَةٍ" "Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of murky water"The Quran literally just states that the sun sets in a pond of acidic/murky water and that theres a town built around the puddle and muhammad went to the town. This is also confirmed in the hadith. Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran does not come from God. >Verification not required.
>>17278576>No rebuttal to the Quran and the translationMoving on faggot lover.>Hadiths Complied by the Sahaba of the Prophet PBUH the same people who complied the Quran and are praised in the Quran by Allah who said he will protect Islam.
>>17278584Muhammad was not a prophet and islam is not the correct religion. The Quran does not come from God. Islam is dead and you need to get over it
>>17278584>>No rebuttal to the Quran and the translationI'm not trying to rebut the Quran, you are.I already answered your faulty translation and interpretation here >>17278529Have you already forgotten, my friend?>Complied by the Sahaba of the Prophet PBUH the same people who complied the Quran and are praised in the Quran by Allah who said he will protect Islam.Fine, let's take your argument seriously.First, give me a Hadith narrated only by those who transmitted the Qur'an (hint; you hardly have any)...and those NOT transmitted by those who transmitted the Qur'an, we will reject. Ok?Second, the ones who narrated Hafs have narrations that are pro-Shia. So are you willing to bite the bullet and become a Shia?Or agree with all reasonable people that hadiths were blown out of proportion?
>>17278607>Fine, let's take your argument seriously.So you have not only thrown away the command of Allah swt and rejected Prophet Muhammad PBUH plus even defended faggotry but now also throwing away the people who perserved the Quran and praised by Allah? I highly doubt you are a Muslim.>have narrations that are pro-ShiaEvery single hadith Shia have are fabricated they have to use our sources to argue learn your history. Again, they are only above Quranist because they have Hadiths but that doesn't mean they aren't kafirs.
>>17278642Here is a great website for Hadith.https://www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/
>>17278642>Every single hadith Shia have are fabricated they have to use our sources to argueThat is irrelevant to what we were discussing, which is the claim that the same people who gave us the Quran also gave us hadiths. I refuted that claim, and I'm still waiting for an actual argument from you, on this topic and on homosexuality in the Quran.>So you have not only thrown away the command of Allah swt and rejected Prophet Muhammad PBUHI've never done that anywhere ITT. You're imagining things that aren't real.>but now also throwing away the people who perserved the Quran and praised by Allah?The Quran criticizes the sahaba WAY more than it praises them. Read it more, please.>plus even defended faggotryYes and? You are unable to refute my arguments btw.
>>17277094>it's like doing christian theology by re-discussing the birth of jesus on loop.There is no equivalent of the quran in Christianity tho, the gospel is more like the hadith
>This hadith was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who said: >“Allah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. Then He said, ‘Go and greet those angels and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your progeny.’ He said, ‘Al-salamu ‘alaykum (Peace be upon you).’ They said, ‘Al-salamu ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allah).’ So they added the words ‘wa rahmat Allah.’ And everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam. People kept on growing smaller until now.” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 3326; Muslim, 7092)
>>17278662>That is irrelevant to what we were discussingWhy even bring them up in the first place then?>I've never done that anywhere You do by rejecting his teachings and following the law he lay out. Are you one of those morden cucks who are shamed Prophet Muhammad married Asiha Ra?>The Quran criticizes the sahabaIt has given them warnings, but the same thing happened to Prophet Muhammad PBUH as well.
>>17278685>Why even bring them up in the first place then?Hafs is the Quran of 95% of the world. If Hafs is to be trusted just because he brought us the Quran, we should trust his pro-shia narrations. This logic is inescapable and refutes your claim.>You do by rejecting his teachings and following the law he lay out. So say the shia scholars about you, lol.>Are you one of those morden cucks who are shamed Prophet Muhammad married Asiha Ra?I'm not ashamed of things that aren't real.>It has given them warningsWay more than congratulations.
>>17278723>Trying to use Shia kafirs on meReminder.>I'm not ashamed of things that aren't realThanks for proving my point.>Way more than congratulationsSo you do not deny that Prophet Muhammad was also warned as well?Okay.
>>17278723>So say the shia scholars about you, lol.Right and that's why they are minority compared to all of Islam thankfully.
>>17277054Are the NOI real muslims?
>>17278331Where the fuck do you think we take the materials needed to build our bodies from retard? It's all in the clay underneath us.>b-but you aren't using everything!!What a silly cope, if I say I am using wood to build furniture but I discard the bark I am still using fucking wood. Also pic related
>>17278756Don't pretend it makes sense.Allah could make a man from mud and all living things from water (which is not mud) and all jinn from smokeless fire (which is not water).It would all make equally sense because Allah is almighty and he could have made man out of an angel's fart and you would be here explaining the properties and sensibility of spiritual flatulence.The Qu'ran says man is made out of mud because most of its mythology is based on Jewish stories and not because it makes sense because it doesn't.
>>17278796>mud doesn't contain water>pretends to know what smokeless fire is>didn't even use the angels being made from light exampleI don't give a fuck about your trash opinions and historical revisionism. And you pretty much conceded by saying God can do anything out of any material and ignoring the main point. Way to go moron.
>>17278755Aren’t the NOI polytheistic
>>17278756>It's all in the clay underneath us.No it isn't retard. Humans aren't made of clay and the atoms that compose clay are not in humans at all. And no, your screenshot doesn't mean anything. Humans aren't composed of silicon and aluminum. We aren't made out of clay>What a silly cope, if I say I am using wood to build furniture but I discard the bark I am still using fucking wood. Also pic relatedYou objectively are not made out of clay or anything like clay. Lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids are not clay and are not made out of the atoms of clay. The Quran is wrong and not the word of God, and you coping and denying this doesn't mean anything.
>>17278820We are not made of anything remotely like clay. You're wrong and the Quran is wrong. Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God.
>>17277468None of which mention the hadiths or remotely suggest they should even exist.On the contrary, the Quran is pretty explicitly against the hadiths. 6:38 is very clear.>And there is no creature on [or within] the earth or bird that flies with its wings except [that they are] communities like you. We have not neglected in the Book (Quran) a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.The Quran is complete.The verses:45:677:50Are also quite damning against the idea of a hadith besides God's Hadith. You rely too much on a weak and frankly baseless interpretation that sunnah must derive from hadiths outside of the Quran. When the Quran itself is quite clear on the matter that they are not necessary, this is a leap too far.
>>17278583>muhammad went to the townNot a Muslim but if you want to do anti-apologetics then at least read the Quran. That verse is about Dhul Qarnayn, not Muhammad. You are actually so ignorant that you are ignoring a more significant problem with that portion of the Quran, which is that it is blatantly ripped from the Alexander Romance.
>>17278748Shias saying the Quran has been altered are a very tiny minority among shias. This still doesn't refute the point I made which refuted your point.>Thanks for proving my point.It's far more normal and psychologically healthy to be attracted to a beautiful adult male than to a little girl. Please seek therapy if you think otherwise. You might end up hurting someone and regretting it.>So you do not deny that Prophet Muhammad was also warned as well?He was also warned not to trust everyone around him (9:101 47:30), so scholars shouldn't think they know better than him in being able to say who's truthful and who isn't.
>>17278884>arguing that because it's supposed to be Alexander then it isn't claiming the sun sets in a pondMuhammad didn't know where the sun set which is why he told Abu Dharr that it sets in the pond. Also Alexander wasn't a monotheistic, while Muhammed claims he was.The Quran is riddled with errors and contradictions. Muhammad wasn't a prophet and the Quran isn't the word of God.
>>17278884>>17278906The funniest thing is that all alternatives proposed for Alexander are either also polytheists or completely retarded.
>>17278891>are a very tiny minority among shiasHAHAHAHAHA>It's far more normal and psychologically healthy to be attracted to a beautiful adult male than to a little girlNo its not you are sick in the head, girls of that age are halal and there is nothing wrong with that. Like I have said before you have the eyes of a western cuck.>Please seek therapy if you think otherwiseI follow Prophet Muhammad are you saying what our beloved Prophet did was a bad thing? Wait you do not even know he is to begin with, I have no reason to know your opnion on such a matter.>So scholars shouldn't think they know better than himWhy are you talking about scholars? I am speaking about Prophet Muhammad's hadiths which we are meant to follow retard.
>>17278946
>>17278946Kys pedo scum.
>>17278946Hide your kids around this poster.
>>17278952
>>17278856>why doesn't a book meant for all people at all times after revelation talk about nucleic acidsThe amount of stupidity displayed in this post is incredible. Notice how you never actually respond to or try to refute anything I am saying. All you are capable of is repeating the same nonsense "argument" you heard from some atheitard online. Where does it say we are literally clay and not just derived from it? Do you think when the people of old got injured they went to the potter to replace their limbs? I am not even talking about followers of Abrahamic faiths here see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_life_from_clay Every single thing you have listed requires the elements found in clay. At this point you are desperate because you know you have lost. The Quran could state we were made from metal and it would still be right by your own admission lmao>" From the earth We created you, and into it We will return you, and from it We will bring you back again. " - Quran 20:55See the emphasis on the origin of all the things that make man and not what he is now. I just don't understand how this is so hard for you to comprehend. But then again what can I expect out of a fool who demands a biochemistry text book to be sent from beyond the heavens instead of guidance
>>17278984Absolute copeThe Quran is wrong and humans are not built out of clay. No amount of shit for brained attempts to reinterpret it mean anything.The Quran also states that the sun sets in a puddle and Muhammad confirmed this to Abu Dharr. This is also nonsense.Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran does not come from God. Your religion is false and it doesnt matter that you want to believe in it. Islam is dying and you can't do anything about it. Cry, you dog.
>>17279054>brings up an unrelated verse>still fails to respond to anythingahaha keep running boy, your loss is marked as another win for me. Let me guess you think when people are talking about sunsets you literally believe they are saying the sun is sinking at the Earth's horizons? do you also believe the companions thought the trees literally prostrated? I mean I know they are desert people but they used to farm date trees so surely they could have approached the prophet about it.
>>17279091Here anon.
>>17279091Yes there are multiple verses in the Quran which are wrong. This is not a win for you. Yhe verse is not about a sunset. The Arabic directly states that the sun sets in a pond and muhammad confirmed that the sun literally sets in a pond to Abu Dharr>>17278583>>17278884>>17278906>>17278937Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God.
>>17279098There is NO "as if" in the Arabic. It directly states that the sun sets in a pond. This is because muhammad and the people at the time in that area thought the earth was flat and the sun flew over head and would sink down into a pond at night in the west.
>>17279105Why are you ignoring the entire image?
>>17279112He is ignoring everything, The only way he will be able to cope with his stupidity is by being blind on purpose. It's hilarious how he talks with such confidence about things he never even used a single brain cell on (if he even has any)
>>17279112I'm not. They is no "as if" or "he thought" or "he was tricked" or anything. The Arabic directly states that he FOUND or DISCOVERED it. There is nothing there saying it was "as if" he found it. The Quran is wrong and not the word of God. Muhammad was not a prophet
>>17279118
>>17279118I'm directly showing you that you're wrong. This is why you morons have to lie about the Arabic as well as pretend humans are made of silicon and aluminum in order to rectify the idea that we're made of clayMuhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not from God.
>>17279127There is nothing in this line that says "as if". In fact, in 4:157 there IS the line saying that it was tricked:وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا ٱلْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّۢ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًۢاThe word شُبِّهَIs completely missing from 18:86 because it is not saying it was made to appear as such.
>>17278906>which is why he told Abu DharrWe have no clue what he told Abu Dharr if Abu Dharr even existed. The hadiths and sira in general are so weak a source that you should basically not take them into account when thinking about what Muhammad actually said and did. They are much more a record of how various groups in the first few Islamic centuries thought and argued about what Muhammad said and did, what other traditions these groups were interacting with, the development of early Islamic law and piety etc. You're not gonna find a serious Islamic studies guy these days who is not a practicing Muslim who says that they are reliable in the way that the traditional hadith sciences say they are though. That doesn't exist in secular academia. And to separate the ones that might contain some kernel of truth about Muhammad's actual life and teachings from the ones which can only teach us something about later developments requires hugely complex research where the methodologies are very recent and the research done so far is a drop in the bucket to what needs to be done, privished, and extremely inaccessibly written. For a layman it is better to just disregard them. A lot of anti-apologists/Christian missionaries want the hadiths to be substantially true to history since so many of them are ugly or retarded but it's just not reality. Not according to the last few decades of critical research anyway, maybe there could be some huge find or paradigm shift that changes everything.>Muhammad wasn't a prophet and the Quran isn't the word of GodNo shit, it's all fake. I don't believe God asked a bunch of irrelevant Bronze Agers to cut up their dicks or that a donkey talked to a guy either. But figuring out what exactly happened and how it all evolved is a lot more interesting than soaking up surface level missionary arguments just so that you can say "Islam is fake" (but not my religion, don't you dare apply the same critical historical methodologies to that!).
>>17279127subhanallah it speaks about them so clearly every single time>>17279129you're doing nothing but repeating yourself like a broken radio. cope some more
>>17279155>you're doing nothing but repeating yourself like a broken radio. cope some moreI've proven you wrong multiple times and you have no argument, dog.
>>17279155>subhanallah it speaks about them so clearly every single timeI remember seeing a debate about Prophet Muhammad being in the song of Solomon and the Christian debater pronouced his name wrong on pourpose which is stated in the Quran they would do when they are faced with truth.
>>17279152Sure, that makes sense. But my point is these morons are actually in here claiming that humans are made out of silicon and aluminum. They're blatantly lying about what the Arabic says despite the fact that we can all see it right here written down. Then when they can't argue they just pretend that they're making a point. This line here >>17279155 is literally just muhammad the fake prophet telling people "hey if anyone points out that what I'm saying is contradictory and makes no sense, that actually means in even more correct and the believers will believe anyway!" And theyre so stupid that dont see that this immediately proves that muhammad is full of shit."People" who believe in any of the abrahamic religions are retarded
>>17279165I've proven you wrong directly multiple times. I haven't mispronounced anything nor have I mistranslated anything. Muhammad was not a prophet and the Quran is not the word of God.
>>17279155I don't know why you guys think this stuff is so impressive. It's just typical cultish "everyone outside the group is blinded by spiritual darkness" rhetoric. And it works on you matter what happens, totally opposite outcomes are somehow proof of the same thing. If an unbeliever listens and accepts Islam, or even just admits that you have a point on a specific subject then subhanallah! A da'i clips it and a million semi-literates spam mashallah in the comments. The light of our deen is so bright that even in the heart of the West it speaks to the natural fitrah and answers all the needs of degenerate modern man (i.e. Western man, who we hate and envy in equal measure). If an unbeliever listens and rejects Islam then subhanallah! This is such powerful proof of the Quran. Didn't Allah say that most people are ungrateful and forgetful and deny the truth even if they know it?The Bible has verses to identical effect by the way, it is very standard ideological control shit. The outgroup rejected our message but don't worry about that, our message predicted that they would and it's actually just proof of our superiority.https://biblehub.com/john/12-40.htm
>>17279168>hey if anyone points out that what I'm saying is contradictory and makes no sense, that actually means in even more correct and the believers will believe anywayYeah I was literally just trying to point this out to one of them lol. The Quran is often a very manipulative book in a way which is really obvious if you know anything about how propaganda or cult control work.They are usually slimy and all over the place when they debate but I really don't know how much of it is because of malice. People underrate the fact that most Muslims you meet online are poorly educated third worlders who have very powerful, naive faith and a deep sense of inferiority. There's absolutely a phenomenon where they watch a few youtube videos and then rush off to the internet to go try to spread the deen (even though they don't understand it themselves). There is definitely also the "taqiyya" thing (it's not taqiyya technically, I assume they have some other term that covers it) where some of the extremely fucked up stuff you can find in fiqh is kept behind closed doors by deeply Islamically educated Muslims who do know about it. But I don't think most of the ones we get around here even engage with the faith to that extent, it's simple minded preaching that soothes a complex or reinforce an identity. And when it's challenged they often don't know what to do since they are essentially just regurgitating apologetic scripts they haven't thought about for themselves.
>>17279157You can't respond to a single thing. It's not worth engaging with you because you do not care about the truth. Have fun talking with yourself>>17279165The reason they hate the words of God so much is because the truth hurts. This is why the obsession with Islam never stops. Tangentially related but the funniest guy I debated was a Christian who said Islam was false because he was convinced economic system absolutely need riba, and an all knowing God should know that. They look for every excuse under the sun and it leads them to hypocrisy most of the time.
>>17279224>Tangentially related but the funniest guy I debated was a Christian who said Islam was false because he was convinced economic system absolutely need riba, and an all knowing God should know that. They look for every excuse under the sun and it leads them to hypocrisy most of the time.Holy kek, may Allah protect us from those people brother.
>>17279224>You can't respond to a single thing.I've responded to every argument you've attempted to make. Point out any argument I didn't address
>>17279216I honestly think they're just trolling and aren't even Muslims. I think the same for the christians. It's impossible to be religious in the modern world with access to the internet and modern information
>>17279233ameen bro>>17279278>It's impossible to be religious in the modern worldEven atheist utopia China is full of people who believe in the spiritual. It simply is the fitrah and the reason basically every culture has some form of religion. le hecking science didn't stop religion and it will never stop religion, the problem is with you people. No matter what "modern information" you get your paradigm simply doesn't let you accept a reality that doesn't exist exclusively inside your heads. Your sky daddy Dawkins (who regrets spreading your religion) for example says that it is more likely that the Earth was seeded by aliens with life than a creator God existing. see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc How can you possibly think such a biased way of looking at the world will ever lead to truth?
>>17279354Do you deny that humans evolved from a common ancestor with other apes?
>>17279373my position is closest to pic related but I will remain agnostic on the issue because human exceptionalism is still on the table for me as I don't necessarily see other "species" like the neanderthals to be non-human
>>17279387I don't think that you even believe this. You know that humans evolved from previous apes and adamic exceptionalism is false. You don't have to give up a belief in God by accepting that the abrahamic religions are wrong.
>>17279354>fitra is to believe in one God>fitra is to have a vague spiritual beliefYou have no idea how to define "fitra" because like all muslims you are an obscurantist dog using big words merely for propaganda purposes and not because you understand their meaning.
>>17279401Who are you to say what I believe in? As I said either of those two views are possible from how I see things, but I lean towards the former. I am sorry but you just don't see this thing in the wild and claim it is an animal. They had technology and burial rights, and we know Cain was taught how to do the latter by God.>>17279402>retard doesn't know the fitra can get clouded‘Iyad ibn Himar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, my Lord has commanded me to teach you what you do not know, from what he has taught me this day, ‘All wealth I bestowed upon them is lawful. I have created all of My servants inclined to worship, but devils come to them who turn them away from their religion. They outlaw what has been made lawful for them, and they command them to associate partners with Me for which no authority has been revealed.’ Verily, Allah looked at the people of the earth and He detested all of them, Arabs and foreigners alike, except for remnants of the people of the Book.” - Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2865
>>17279354>How can you possibly think such a biased way of looking at the world will ever lead to truth?The delectable irony of a muslim writing that sentence.
>>17278492>>17278529>>17278542>>17278576>>17278607>muslim anon defends homosexuality>no one was able to refute himmuslimbros...
>>17279442
>>17279233>Holy kekTo be fair, calling Allah by the name of a god of darkness and chaos is pretty accurate.
>>17279442Islam was always zesty as hell
>>17279421>Who are you to say what I believe in? As I said either of those two views are possible from how I see things, but I lean towards the former. I am sorry but you just don't see this thing in the wild and claim it is an animal. They had technology and burial rights, and we know Cain was taught how to do the latter by God.Humans are animals NOW dude. Every cell in your body is a eukaryotic animal cell therefore you're an animal. You have a spinal chord therefore you're a vertebrate. You have hair, are warm blooded, and females have mammary glands and make milk therefore you are a mammal, you have foreward facing eyes, opposable thumbs, and a tailbone/coccyx therefore you're a primate. Human culture and technology evolved along with humanity, it didn't come from Adam
>>17279451
>>17279457What does that have to do with Ba'al-La?
>>17279456Seems like you don't understand my position at all. Neither of those state that we have to be physically different from the rest of creation. One of them even necessitates that compatibility has to exist. Also I wasn't even using the word the way you think
>>17279476No, humans are animals and this definition is wrong. Humans are objectively part of kingdom animalia of domain Eukaryota.You're just trying to shoehorn in a wrong belief to justify Islam rather than accepting Islam is wrong.
>>17279482>this definition is wrongsilliest cope I have seen all year. You don't decide how the English language works, sorry. Also once more the position I lean towards agrees with what you are saying by necessity.
>>17279497>silliest cope I have seen all yearI'm directly telling you how humans are defined >You don't decide how the English language worksI'm not. Humans are animals and we're referred to as animals in the English language >Also once more the position I lean towards agrees with what you are saying by necessity.No it doesnt, as you're claiming some humans were created and sent down to mix with other apes but that's not what happened. The evolution of humans is direct.
>>17279502>I'm notYou're a liar who rejects two standard dictionaries in favor of your wikipedia definition. But don't worry they don't help you either >but that's not what happened.Evidence? I already told you I am agnostic on the issue so I haven't even made a claim you massive retard.
>>17279450Now do a map of countries where homosexuality is legal and say that's a good argument that the Bible condones homosexuality. Same logic.
>>17279523Christians say they don't have to follow the old laws anymore though. Human sacrifice is all you need for salvation.
>>17279529Now do a map of countries where homosexuality is legal and say that's a good argument that the New Testament condones homosexuality. Same logic. It isn't just the Mosaic law that condemns homosexuality, it's in New Testament sin lists as well and Paul preaches on it specifically in Romans.
>>17279515Do you know what "colloquial" means? Why do you think it says " is often used to refer to nonhuman animals? >Evidence?The field of biological anthropology deals with human evolution and there's nothing there about adamic exceptionalism. Muslims made it up to try to shoehorn it in.You don't need to stop believing in God to accept the reality of human origins, which is pure natural evolution.
>>17279539>it's in New Testament sin lists as well and Paul preaches on it specifically in Romans.Yes I am aware of that too. A lot of Christians say you don't even have to follow those. Believing that Jesus "died" for your sins is enough. They also have nothing like sharia. Which those countries follow
>>17279544Not getting into another definition argument with you. Here's literally the first result "used in ordinary or familiar conversation". This isn't an academic work or anything more serious. It's me shitposting on 4chan with a dense retard on the other end.>there's nothing thereWhy would biological anthropology deal with theological topics? I want evidence that it didn't happen since you made that positive claim. You vaguely pointing to the name of a secular field is not evidence.
>>17279547>A lot of Christians say you don't even have to follow thoseA lot of Christians would call them liberalized lukewarm Christians who will be spat out just like a lot of you would call the lot of Quranists liberalized kafirs who will burn. Your point about soteriology literally only applies to Protestantism btw but that's irrelevant because I'm not even Christian and my point isn't that Christianity is baseder because it hates the fags more. I was just pointing out what an awful argument this >>17279450 was. You don't even have to go back 200 years in history to be able to make a map of the exact opposite. In the late 19th century North Africa and especially the Ottoman Empire were the most liberal places in the world when it came to homosexuality whereas it was criminalized to various extents in all European countries. Does that prove true Islam is pro-gay? No? Then your map doesn't map prove it's anti-gay.
>>17279561Positive claims are claims that when fully logically reduced contain the existential quantifier, not its negation. The statement "God did not create Adam separately from other apes to send him down from heaven" is fully logically reduced and is a negative claim (there is not/there did not).>You vaguely pointing to the name of a secular field is not evidence.Yes it is, as the evolution does not have adamic exceptionalism. You don't even believe it.
>>17279562I don't care what other Christians want to call them. The fact is a huge chunk of the Christian world agrees with that ideology. Jesus could say straight to their faces to kill the fags but it still wouldn't matter because they are saved anyway. Even the Catholics don't outright condemn them anymore, in fact protestants tend to support them less. If your book says to ignore it then you don't even need to make a case anymore from its verses
>>17279569Who made that specific claim again?>Yes it isThat's not how evidence works. I want to see at least one peer reviewed paper that is accepted by the scientific community that states that position is false. If that can be proven I will reject it, simple>You don't even believe it.You have this habit of telling people what they believe in for no reason. Okay then, you're Hindu and forget about ape men you literally believe in the monkey army.
>>17279595>That's not how evidence works.Yes it is Show one paper that shows that adamic exceptionalism is true. You're claiming it is. I can list hundreds of papers detailing the evolution and genetics of humans and not a single one has any mention of adamic exceptionalism. Here's one that details human evolution and there's nothing about adamic exceptionalismhttps://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2015.0237
>>17279577Why'd you cut the chart off before it got to 51% of Muslims in America being in favor gay marriage?>Jesus could say straight to their faces to kill the fagsThat's not what any of the mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament do say to begin with. Nothing in the entire New Testament explicitly addresses how a government should act or what the laws should be because worldly power is framed as evil in the NT and dichotomized with the Church, not paired with it. An evil to be obeyed (arguably, you can certainly ask the question what really is Caesar's if the earth is the Lord's) but an evil. The closest you get to any kind of positive evaluation of political activity is in Romans 13 but I think it is pretty silly to read that as Paul saying God gave the Roman Empire authority in the sense that they were sanctioned by God since he's calling all of Roman culture evil and saying God cursed them just a few chapters prior.>For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.>Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.If you want to argue from a religionist pov then you have to address the Quranist anon's textual points and prove from an Islamic paradigm why they are invalid. If you want to argue from a critical pov then there is no such thing as real Islam to begin with and any manifestation of something calling itself Islam is Islam, including pro-gay ones. Of which there have been many, the Islamic world was incredibly zesty for most of its history.
>>17279611So your proof of your positive claim is that you don't have evidence otherwise? And again words seem to really confuse you I specifically did not make a claim, it is a belief I have and one I am open to changing my mind on when provided with evidence. Don't have it? sucks to be you
>>17279625The positive claim is "God created Adam and sent him down to mate with other apes"The negative claim is "God did not create Adam separately"You are making the positive claim.
>>17279595>>17279611Has anyone tried to do the math yet on how long it would even be possible for a race of 60 cubit humans to exist on earth? I mean assuming to begin with that their bodies could support themselves and so on. The hadith says he was 60 cubits (that's 27 meters/90 feet tall) and that humanity has gotten smaller since then. So how many generations of 60 cubit humans building 60 cubit human sized civilizations and eating 60 cubit human sized amounts of food are we talking about? We should see evidence of that all over the place but my point is eventually they would just run out of food and starve. Unless you think they shrunk very quickly but the hadith doesn't say that and if anything implies the opposite>Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam who was sixty cubits tall. People kept growing smaller until now. Impossible to actually do the math unless you know how old the world is islamically which the Quran and hadiths aren't clear about afaik, Muslims historically just went with Israeliyyat on this. But it seems obvious that this is just totally impossible if you are reading the cubit hadith literally.
>>17279637Okay got it you really have no understanding of how words work. The only positive claim I am making is that God created Adam and we are all his descendants. I am making that statement exclusively on faith in God's speech. All I have to do to prove this is to demonstrate the truth of Islam but that's outside the scope of this discussion. The only way you can possibly disprove this, is to disprove universal common ancestry of all human beings. It doesn't even matter if we share only 0.0001% of our genes, I would still be right so good luck. Now let's get to the positive claim you are making which you are basing on what exactly? You said "it's not what happened" now demonstrate that.
>>17279614I didn't cut anything and it also doesn't make sense to say no u here. We actually have to obey God and the messenger. Whoever doesn't is sinning and whoever rejects a commandment outright is a disbeliever. Also it doesn't even matter since clearly the denomination that has some semblance of government and rules is very split on the issue.>it is pretty silly to read that as Paul saying God gave the Roman Empire authority in the sense that they were sanctioned by God since he's calling all of Roman culture evil and saying God cursed them just a few chapters prior.Paul called the law itself a curse as well as Jesus. In our faith we are told specifically that we cannot obey what is sinful from people in power. Christianity as you said is pretty much silent on government and implicitly approves its actions. And btw they are the actions of voting Christians. As for Rome, Christendom is ruled by the influence of Rome and has been for a very long time. It has become the sole provider of indulgences just as it is an authority on canon >If you want to argue from a religionist pov then ...All I have to do is point to governments that have implemented sharia. You can't point to past epic trad nations you can't point to anything. Because once again no such thing can exist. Poland is not going to help you at all even if they are still going on lgbt hunts
>>17279652>The only positive claim I am making is that God created Adam and we are all his descendantsProve it>All I have to do to prove this is to demonstrate the truth of IslamIslam has already been proved false. >The only way you can possibly disprove this, is to disprove universal common ancestry of all human beingsThe theory of evolution already postulates that all life descends from a universal common ancestor. >Now let's get to the positive claim you are making which you are basing on what exactly? I'm not making a positive claim. "It did not happen" is a negative claim. The positive claim I'm making is that humans evolved according to natural selection and natural law, and I linked one of many papers detailing the evolution.
>>17279706>prove the entirety of your faith because I want to debate you on evolutionBaby steps, I don't even know your position on God to see what you accept already. Also no it hasn't been proven false. If it would be demonstrated true what then? Are you just going to throw away all we know?>already postulates that all life descends from a universal common ancestorExactly, so how the fuck are you planning to do that?>The positive claim I'm making is that humans evolved according to natural selection and natural lawThe position I lean towards says this. Literally the only exception is Adam (it's in the name) which you claim cannot be the case.
>>17279723*and Eve ofc but the point still stands
>>17279691>doesn't make sense to say no uHow am I doing whataboutism? I already told you I'm not Christian. You are trying to use stats on support for gay marriage in America to prove that Islam can't possibly condone homosexuality, I am telling you you can use the same stats to make the exact opposite point.>We actually have to obey God and the messenger. Whoever doesn't is sinning and whoever rejects a commandment outright is a disbelieverThat only creates a little bit more distance between us and the actual question that is relevant here, which is how do you know that it is a command not to engage in homosexuality to begin with? Quranist anon brought up a lot of linguistic arguments that no Sunnis addressed, you all started posting maps and stats and making takfir and screeching about Shias instead. Which is actual whataboutism, something you people are seemingly incapable of avoiding.>You can't point to past epic trad nationsI couldn't even if I was Christian because it would be a bad argument and exactly what you are doing for Islam, correct. Pointing to le trad based retvrn nation isn't an argument for the truth or falsehood of a certain exegetical interpretation.
>>17279737>I am telling you you can use the same stats to make the exact opposite point.Nope not possible because of very different theology. Once again if Jesus came down right now and told every single Christian to terminate the gays and they didn't do it, then it actually is still not a problem to them. You are completely incapable of understanding basic wording.>how do you know that it is a command not to engage in homosexuality to begin with?Do you want me to post fatwas or what? I didn't even see his arguments but I've engaged plenty of times before with other heretics like Qadiyani and Christians trying to twist the Quran for their purposes
>>17279442See>>17278946
Mythra would never say that
>>17278110>>17278530>>17278543Salafi are Protestant (literalist revivalism), Sufi are Catholic (common mysticism), Shiite are Orthodox (fringe mysticism).
>>17279832Yeah she would say "I love jumping on BBC because I'm a girl from Xenoblade and all girls from Xb are PAWGs who think black men are supeiror"
>>17277468>following some random dude's story about Muhammed (pbuh) is the same as following Muhammed (pbuh)if I told a story about how the Prophet is actually totally okay with pork and wine would you listen to me? What if I claim that he said you have to take it up the bum atleast once to go too heaven? Would you also believe and follow that just because I slapped the word hadith on the story?
>>17280116>would you listen to me?Only if you could provide a clean chain of narration with no liars on it that ties all the way back to Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
>>17279832She is a based Sunni chad.
