I've been listening to Jay Smith who is a Christian Apologist/Evangelist and had spent his entire life trying to debunk Islam and converting Muslims to ChristianityAnyways, he has a couple video series where he pushes the theory that essentially ALL of the "Islamic Standard Narrative" was forged and made up by the Abbassids 200 years laterThere are a lot of difference types of evidence for this, but amongst the more relevant ones are that Standard Islamic Narrative claims Mekka and Medina were important powerful places during the time period of the beginning of Islam, despite not being marked on a single map or having any archeological evidence of human habitation from the period, that the Quran is unchanged from the first Quran to the current ones with no variations, that Hadiths and biographies of the Prophet Muhammad first showed up 200 years later when the Abbassids were in power, and so on.I would like to ask whether this theory has conclusive proof disproving it
No./Thread
>>17280542He is a Christcunt Apologetic who claimed the islamists he hates are closer to him than his own Atheist/Gay White Europeans. As for proving his Islam is le bad claim, show ANY non-Christcunt apologetic Academic who says Islam is fake, you can't because they will look crazy and get fired then get killed by islamists.
Let's say I give benefit of the doubt to his Mecca and Medina questions. Everything else he says is retarded.>Anyways, he has a couple video series where he pushes the theory that essentially ALL of the "Islamic Standard Narrative" was forged and made up by the Abbassids 200 years later200 years from when specifically? And where did the different sects and madhabs come from? He needs to form a cohesive explanation for everything, not some half-assed talking points.>claims Mekka and Medina were important powerful places during the time period of the beginning of IslamMecca was certainly an important site for pagan Arabs. Most Arabs weren't pagan though. A lot of Muslims incorrectly conflate Arab with pagan Arab.>despite not having any archeological evidence of human habitation from the periodWahhabis and Salafists destroyed a lot of shit. Not to mention structures in sandy deserts face heavy erosion to begin with. It's the same reason why Sahelian empires used mud to build structures rather than waste resources on stone or concrete. And where did the Muslims come from that "moved into" Mecca and Medina, and why did they do so?>that Hadiths and biographies of the Prophet Muhammad first showed up 200 years later when the Abbassids were in power, and so on.Everyone knows that the collections of Hadiths that exist today were compiled in the 800s or thereafter. The presumption is that they were collected from earlier oral and written accounts, and have chains of narrators of varying reliability.
>>17281424Why isnt Mekka and Medina, this alleged hugely important market place and pagan worship place, not marked on maps for the time period?
>>17280542>spent his entire life trying to debunk IslamHe spent +20 years studying Islam and can't speak Arabic. No wonder Arabs clown Orientalists.
>>17280542hes right about everything but i hate how he calls it the SIN, so cringe
>>17282005They are utterly obsessed with Islam and pathetic liars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dDazTatAIo
>>17281424Also its kinda funny your point about desert eroding and muslims destroying a ton of shit despite a ton of ancient sites still being around with ton of archaeological evidence. Petra for example
>>17280542>Mecca didn't existThis take is just braindead, the less extreme take is>Mecca wasn't paganEarly muslims destroyed all all idols they could find, according to their own sources, thus there are no idols from the Hejaz starting from 300 years before the birth of Islam. Inscriptions though still exist around the Hejaz, they say they mention Allah and Christ, yet we know, again from Muslim sources, that Meccan pagans worshiped Abrahamic dieties alongside pagan ones, ie they were syncretistic. The names on these inscriptions too, again in confirmation with muslim sources, contained pagan dieties, eg Abd al-Uzza. Unless they're trying to claim that al-Uzza is somehow also Jesus
>>17282275There is literally an inscription in the middle of the Arabian desert made and signed by a companion of the Prophet, known in the early muslim sources as a former Christian, which makes him more likely to be able to writehttps://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/729531
>>17282311>>17282311The inscription reads:b-sm-k rb.n''n' hnzlh <<bn>>'bd 'mrw'wsy b-br 'llhIn Your name our Lord,I am Hanzala [son of]'Abd al-'AmrI urge (you) to be pious towards GodJallad and Sidky proposes that "it was likely carved before the establishment of the Medinan state"
>>17282359So this survived for 1400 years in the Arabian desert, but actual archaeological proof of large scale human habitation in Mekka and Medina doesn’t?Intetesting
>>17282366Yes, because the Saudi government hasn't designated it as the site for a new usury tower or megastructureMind you many of these inscriptions were discovered by amateurs. The Saudi government (and many muslim governments in the past) aren't very interested in verifying early Islamic history through archeology nor in preserving them as you probably know
>>17282413If, in a city in the middle of the desert, the people kept rebuilding on top of older buildings, of course you'd be hard pressed to find any trace of these older buildings. In the west, England for example, we can find catatombs or roman roads, but as you probably know, there weren't any catatombs in Mecca, or the Hejaz for that matter, nor were there ancient roads maintained by global empires(before the Islamic empire)Even the Kaaba was rebuilt several times over 1400 years, I guess for muslims then and now, it wasn't the building that mattered but the site
>>17282413nta, I just love how this city looks. That arid desert combined with unusual architecture makes it look outright alien
>>17282366https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia
>>17282438We are witnessing prophecy before our very eyes
>>17282359>it was written by companion of the Prophetproof?
>>17282475what the actual fuck... how can they be made to stop
>>17282483Hanzala ibn 'Abd al-'Amr is a minor(less well-known) companion according to early muslim sources. It is unlikely to be forged in that name in contrast to another inscription, namedropping a famous companion:>“In the name of God. I, Zuhayr, wrote this at the time Umar died in the year 24 A.H." The orthography checks out to be from around that time, and>Al-Jallad added that the patina of the inscription and the weathering patterns indicate that it had been there a long time, ruling out the possibility of a modern forgeryIt is also unlikely that it is a different person with same name and same father's nameThe inscription below it is similar but signed by "Abd al-Uzza son of Marwan" instead, which if it were written by Muslims, this person would have changed his name, the inscription was also found near Taif which was hostile to Muhammad's government, which makes it likely that it was written prior to Hanzala's conversion to Islam
>>17282530It is indeed likely that a companion's inscription would eventually be found. As is well-known from muslim sources, there were around a total of 100,000 "companions", ie people who physically saw and heard from the Prophet and associated with him. That would be a significant portion of the likely small population of the Hejaz at that time
>>17282247>Also its kinda funny your point about desert eroding and muslims destroying a ton of shit despite a ton of ancient sites still being around with ton of archaeological evidence. Petra for examplePetra is located in southern Jordan, and its structures are literally carved out of mountains. It's nothing like building free-standing structures with building materials and which are exposed to the elements from all sides, not just one or two.>>17281662>Why isnt Mekka and Medina, this alleged hugely important market place and pagan worship place, not marked on maps for the time period?IDK if it is or isn't. Who's supposed to have these maps? Nomadic Arabs navigated by memory and physical indicators, not maps.What's his explanation for these Hadith compilations from the 700s?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muwatta_Imam_Malikhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahifat_Hammam_ibn_Munabbihhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab_al-Atharhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musannaf_Abd_al-RazzaqThey lived during the Umayyad era and into the Abbasid era. Did they and others just randomly decide to go with the Abbasid LARP, and that too despite many of them being at odds with the Abbasids?
>>17282571The new theory is that Islam was invented by Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan
>>17282632>The new theory is that Islam was invented by Abd al-Malik ibn MarwanFrom the same schizo in OP, or another one?
>>17282599His theory isnt that the Umayyads didnt existHis theory is actually that they were a unitarian Christian sect. He uses the inscripions on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem to prove this. The inscriptions doesn’t mention the prophet Muhamamd but mentions Abd Al-Malik who was the caliph. It says Jesus is not the son of God. The only type of religion who would write that is a unitarian Christian sect. Furthermore the orientations of all the earliest mosques were toward Petra/Jerusalem, and not Mekka.His theory is thus that the Abbassids forged the Mekka Medina theory and the prophet Muhammad to make a new religion and leave Christianity, even though originally it was a Christian sect
Btw I dont want to muddle his arguments by misrepresenting them or getting something wrongHere is a video where he talks about how the Hajj rituals are in fact Biblical and originally based in Jerusalemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J-Dnn1RLU0
>>17282475what's the point of this pic? what is that highlighted bit meant to reference?
Does this guy publish his stuff in peer reviewed journals, or is it all just the kind of crank nonsense we get from all of these apologists and "scholars."
>>17285304Great point. Why doesn't he? There' no shortages of Christian universities either.
>>17282543>>17282530so no, there is no proof
>>17280542i can believe itadd pic related and it make sense
>>17285703I think apologists of all faiths should try and do it. It's easy to impress the general public by playing games with history or modal logic, but it's another thing to have their own thought challenge by a broader field of experts.They won't because these people are the intellectual equivalent of used car salesmen.
>>17285703>>17286564He isnt a researcher himself, he quotes other academics research, that actually work at university and publish papers and books
>>17280542Jay Smith is taken about as seriously as Muhammad Hijab in academia.
didnt read
>>17283371It's a prophecy that bedouin arabs, who were once destitute, would eventually compete with each other in building tall structures
>>17287687This is one of the signs of the end of time
