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Reminder that Christians believe that this man:

>condemned the first humans to hardship and death for disobeying him without them knowing what disobedience is
>wiped out most of humanity in a catastrophic flood
>killed thousands of newborn boys and caused countless more people to die in famines and plagues
>helped the Israelites conquer and commit genocide against numerous rival tribes and followers of competing gods
>had a group of youths mauled to death by bears for making fun of an old man

..among dozens of other instances of violence, murder and cruelty, and yet call him the most compassionate figure to have ever lived!
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Christians in 2018 as a whole arent known for their critical thinking skills.
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>>4990543
he's the logos though, he didn't decide how the world would be set up, he just faithfully transmitted knowledge of the divine to the material world
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>>4990543
That's what happens when you allow fucking retards to read the Bible. Luther was a mistake.
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>>4990574
If he didn't decide how the world would be set up, then he is not God. Mainstream Christianity teaches that he is God, however, and therefore, everything that Yahweh did, Jesus also did.
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Why did Jesus allow Satan to kill a bunch of innocent people to psychologically break an innocent man to win a bet?

And if Satan is trapped in hell then how was he wandering the earth?
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>>4990592
mainstream christianity is wrong. i'm just telling the truth brother
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>>4990639
The world is ruled by Satan and God has some jurisdiction but not total control. For someone as important as Job he needed clearance from God to do what he wanted. For you and me? He has free reign. Every major historical power existed and exists at his mercy. That is why elites are always involved in occult rituals and human sacrifice (which pleases him no matter who humans think they are dedicating it to)
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>>4990543
>condemned the first humans to hardship and death for disobeying him without them knowing what disobedience is
What is the harrowing of hell?
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>>4990655
>The world is ruled by Satan
Wat. They said that there was a war in heaven & satan was condemned to hell. You’re telling me that God just allows an evil demigod to run around on earth trying to damn people? At least Eru sent the Istari to fight Sauron
>God has some jurisdiction but not total control
So the Zoroastrians are correct?
>For someone as important as Job
Wait, God has favorites?
>For you and me? He has free reign.
That is fucking bullshit. Can I go complain to upper management?
>That is why elites are always involved in occult rituals and human sacrifice (which pleases him no matter who humans think they are dedicating it to)

Jesus was working for Satan this entire time? Holy fuck
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>>4990639
>if Satan is trapped in hell then how was he wandering the earth?
He was on day release
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>>4990543
I recommend you look into Manichean cults like the Cathars.

>>4990716
>So the Zoroastrians are correct?
A Cathar might have said they were on the right track. NT God is like Ahura Mazda, OT God is like Ahriman. OT God interfaces directly with the material world, which is permeated by (and synonymous) with sin. Therefore this evil god is impure, he has human impulses and desires, and he is not to be honored or trusted. Rather, he is to be resisted at every turn. NT God is not so crude as to physically manipulate or take interest in crass matter.

From my limited understanding, Cathars, and some other Manichean dualists, replaced Satan or the Devil with Yahweh. Makes a shitload of sense to me.

What I'd like to know is what or who they thought Jesus was. They weren't Trinitarian or anything...
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>>4990543

You mean Orthodox Christians.

The gnostic groups already mentioned plus Marcion of Sinope had a huge problem with the cruelty and injustice of the Old Testament. Marcion churches had big followings for several centuries and completely dumped the Old Testament and its God.

They concluded the creator God, Yahweh, was a different lower level being entirely and the God Jesus proclaimed to be higher and different.

Honestly a shame these early Christian views were snuffed out. Christianity with demiurge theory would be having a better time today theologically without having to defend the cruel Jewish creator God. Talk about an easy target for every critic.
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>>4990543
>has to split himself into another being (in a manner that is confusing as fuck), have that being tortured so that people who believe in him being the savior can be saved for shit that an omnipotent being cant just snap his fingers to forgive them.

You would thing god would have experience or knowledge how to fucking work, and not so stupid ways.
also
>god works in mysterious ways
>cannot give us a way to understand his ways
>>4990639
>its due to satan!
god I hate that copout, because it just says that god isn't a god.
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>>4990543
>without them knowing what disobedience is

God told them not to eat the fruit but they chose to trust some random snake who they just met instead of the God who gave them everything including their own lives.
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>>4991616
How could they know who to trust?
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>>4991240
There's also the possibility that the Jews simply remembered wrong or adjusted things as suited them, including when they decided to finally write it all down. Jesus may have been sent to straighten them out by setting a new example. He might have encouraged following the rules but he wasn't happy about all the blind dogma, hypocrisy and empty ritual.

Likewise,
>>4990639
Job is hardly a reliable text to base your faith on.
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You don't have to do anything other than follow the 10 commandments to get it to heaven. I guess you get a super deluxe penthouse for following the rest.
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>>4990543
Jesus didn't do that
There is a difference between god and jesus in almost all sects
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>>4991648
You don't even need that if you're a gentile, just the seven Noahide laws.

>Not to worship idols.
>Not to curse God.
>To establish courts of justice.
>Not to commit murder.
>Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
>Not to steal.
>Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
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>>4991668
Well even by those standards I'm gonna burn
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>>4991634
God had already demonstrated His goodwill towards humanity by giving literally everything therefore proving that He is trustworthy. Satan gave nothing to Adam and Eve yet they chose to believe him anyway, we truly got what we deserved.
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>>4991735
The point is not about god being trustworthy, it is about how could they know that they should not have listened to snake and/or snake.
They were practically on the level of a child in what they could do or know.
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>>4991835
Even children know to trust their parents more than a random stranger.
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>>4991835
Or if the word “trust” is too much for you, even children know they should listen to their parents more than a random stranger.
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>>4991735

>I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil...
Isaiah 45:6,7

>I create evil...

>For an evil tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. Luke 6:43,44a

Just a small sample of what was probably in Marcion's lost Antitheses according to scholars. It was supposedly quite lengthy and featured a side-by-side comparison of Luke with inconsistencies in the Old Testament.

Marcion said Yahweh was not the God of Christ for good reason. He also put together the first New Testament before the proto-Orthodox churches did.
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>>4990592
He's only the voice of God, though. One of three aspects of God as a whole. I agree with>>4990647 in the sense that modern mainstream Christianity is taught incredibly wrong. It's like nobody has read Aquinas or Augustine (who actually came up with some well reasoned and thought out arguments and theories on meaning) and everybody just got their info from the Sunday morning Xtianity for Dummies show. The Bible was designed to be read and thought about critically - only brainlets take it at face value
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>>4991905
>>4991898
Not who you are replying to, I'm >>4991955 this guy. But in the Kabbalah, snakes represent wisdom. So through the Snake (wisdom) and the apple (knowledge) Adam and Eve were changed irrevocably from their previous child-like (or animal-like) state, and such had to now fend for themselves
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>>4990543
Jesus is the reason why we don't put down retarded people and other useless human trash that are simply burdens and only live just to suck off resources. I'm not saying we should euthanize the disabled but they should be killed because I don't like them. They are holding back progress. Without kindness and the obsession of good and meekness, we would have done the logical thing by now and that is to euthanize them.
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>>4990543
You act like that's contradictory.
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>>4991964

The serpent is also a savior of gnosis in several of the alternate gnostic accounts based on Genesis.

I think Manichaeism had Jesus the Splendor (one of his aeon manifestations) take the form of the serpent and bestow gnostic wisdom on Adam.

I'm less sure about groups like the Valentinians and Sethians, but they believed in a more heavenly, active pre-existing Christ as aeon before he incarnated as a human savior too.

I like Jesus and the New Testament personally. Original Sin is whack if it's based on Genesis, though.

So many things that don't make sense and just raise more question:

Why does God have a Tree of Knowledge and Tree of Life just hanging out where primal man and woman could get to them?

Why does God ask Adam where he is and if he's eaten the fruit, as if he doesn't know?

Why is God so worried about man also reaching the Tree of Life to the point where he guards it with an angel and a flaming sword?

The gnostic creation stories of a fall in the heavens and corruption of matter feel more coherent than Genesis.
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>>4990543
>Being itself must be judged according to my emotion-based moral standards
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>>4990558
>the come on meme is real
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>>4990664
I think he means adam and eve
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>>4990655
>>4990639

>The world is ruled by Satan and God has some jurisdiction but not total control.

God has complete jurisdiction but not total control as natural law is inviolate so humans can choose evil.

e.g. Dunning-Kruger Effect - most Abrahamics are completely incompetent at "theology."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRX2pq5nSfY
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>>4992828
Yes, literally
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>>4990543
based
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>>4993351
Did Shakespeare not realize the North Star changes all the time?
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Your ignorance of theology is impressive. God is kind and compassionate, but He is also Just. It is kindness enough that the Lord God deems fit to give us His breathe and allow us to live. It is kindness that He even allows to man to exist in His gaze, let alone the doting affection He gives all men. Nevertheless, Prideful and greedy man always clamors for more from Him, and always wonder why when some transgression occurs why more is not given, and why we are not allowed to continue on our way free of any consequence. Even worse, man rages at the heavens why this calamity or this suffering has befallen him and cries out "woe is me," and rages against his Creator, not realizing that Our Lord, a being surpassing all power and majesty, reduced Himself to the form of man, and endured the horror of crucifixion, and suffered death, taking on the burden of all of mankind's sin so that our ancient error would be remedied and we could stand by His side once again. The Ruler and Creator of the Universe itself killed Himself to redeem our failures, and we have the gall to cry out, "Why Lord do you give me this Suffering?"
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>>4993751

Curious how a kind and compassionate God demanded animal and human sacrifices for several thousand years. Yes, there's archeological evidence the Hebrews practiced human sacrifice - it's also alluded to throughout the Old Testament (and not just the famous Abraham and Isaac tale).

Curious how this kind and compassionate God only evolved beyond cruel and collective punishments 2000 years ago for a reason that's never been explained.

Curious how God talks to Lucifer like an old friend and admits to giving the most evil being in existence partial reign over the Earth to wreck havoc on mankind.

Even more curious how this kind and compassionate God was content to not only damn all sorts of people beyond ancient Israel who had never heard of him, but also treated his Chosen People like a doormat to be enslaved and abused by Pagan conquerors for many centuries.

Most curious of all is the fact that even Christians are desperate to divorce themselves from the shameful and vicious mandates of the Old Testament God, but most remain shackled to a Jewish God-corpse by 2000 years of Orthodox theology insisting Yahweh is the only bipolar ultra-deity in existence.

Curious.
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>>4993799
Animal sacrifices are better than human sacrifices. The bible and archeology both tell that the surrounding nations practice human sacrifice regularly. Onto your second point, Jesus is still against all the same sin's of the Old Testament, even if he is more "forgiving". I don't believe Jesus was the true messiah if its any help to you.
>Curious how God talks to Lucifer like an old friend and admits to giving the most evil being in existence partial reign over the Earth to wreck havoc on mankind.
What is a figure of speech.
On your 3rd and 4th points you dont even know what your talking about. You say the Old Testament is harsh, so is it unjust to kill a murderer? Is it unjust to in some way compensate a mother who miscarries due to a drunken brawl between two men who entangle her in their stupidity? I think its an absolute abomination that we don't give capital punishment to murderer's any more today, how can the victims family have closure? Go read the Old Testament again please.
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>>4993799
>Curious how a kind and compassionate God demanded animal and human sacrifices for several thousand years. Yes, there's archeological evidence the Hebrews practiced human sacrifice - it's also alluded to throughout the Old Testament (and not just the famous Abraham and Isaac tale).

God demanded no human sacrifice beyond Abraham and Isaac. If there was the Jews would have recorded it in plain language, as continuing the sacrifices would have been necessary for their religion.

>Curious how this kind and compassionate God only evolved beyond cruel and collective punishments 2000 years ago for a reason that's never been explained.
The message of God had been fulfilled, and all had been revealed to the people of Israel. There is no reason to punish the people for their transgressions when all men now are redeemed and are given the choice to accept their salvation or not.

>Curious how God talks to Lucifer like an old friend and admits to giving the most evil being in existence partial reign over the Earth to wreck havoc on mankind.
The Book of Job isn't even literal.

>Even more curious how this kind and compassionate God was content to not only damn all sorts of people beyond ancient Israel who had never heard of him
No knowledge is given of those in Hell, only those in heaven.

>but also treated his Chosen People like a doormat to be enslaved and abused by Pagan conquerors for many centuries.
Do you even read the Bible? God granted the Israelites power and kingdom. Only when they proceeded to reject Him, did they get rekt by pagans. This is right Justice and punishment for turning away from the Lord. It was Lord's compassion that allowed the Jew's to even remain as a people, rather than being totally destroyed and scattered to the ends of the Earth.

>Most curious of all is the fact that even Christians are desperate to divorce themselves from the shameful and vicious mandates of the Old Testament God
Nice projection

Again, your ignorance is impressive
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>>4991964
>>4992703
>satan is the savior of in satanic religion

whoah
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>>4993934
>If there was the Jews would have recorded it in plain language, as continuing the sacrifices would have been necessary for their religion

Judges 11:31-40, Ezekiel 20:25-26, Exodus 22:29-30
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>>4993956
>>4993956
>Judges 11:31-40
Wartime fighting, nice try though.
>Ezekiel 20:25-26
Metaphorically He "gave" the laws. Read what precedes, Israel wasn't following His ways and were dispersed among the heathen nations adopting their customs. Not unlike Isaiah 63:17.
>Exodus 22:29-30
Exodus 13, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 'Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me.'" Same concept is repeated in multiple verses across the Old Tetsament. He's saying "sanctify" "give" "bless" the first born male Israelites as opposed to when he took the first born males from Egypt.

This was terribly low quality bait. Plucking verses out without reading the surrounding context. You sound like a typical angsty suburban teenager who thinks he knows everything because he read an article online.
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>>4990543
>Be me
> listening to shit religious radio because it's sunday
> heathens feeding Jesus and pals be like , yo Jesus why you guys no wash hands?
> jes be like, why you no hold God in you heart you filthy pagans check and mate
>Jesus really was just an o.g. hippie
If I got a God religion I would become a jew. Jesus was just used to organize the pleb masses into a subservient tool.
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>>4994055
>Wartime fighting
Human sacrifice is alright as long as it's during war?
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>>4994105
It's wasn't human sacrifice. They were literally fighting. They weren't taken to a temple, put on an altar, and neck sliced open.
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>>4994118
breh

read all the way to verse 40

it's about Jephthah giving his daughter to Yawheh as a burnt offering in return for helping him defeat the Ammonites.
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>>4994152
I see what you mean now. But still, not human sacrifice. "And Jephthah vowed a vow to the LORD, and said, 'If You will indeed give the children of Ammon into my hand. Then it shall be that whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, surely it shall belong to the LORD, or I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering.'"

>"...surely it shall belong to the LORD, OR I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering."
She was offered to the lord to serve as a perpetual virgin - i.e. belong to the Lord. Why do you think she walked around mourning the fact that she would never have a husband and children. The second part "... OR I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering" can only apply to animals.
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>>4994196
>Why do you think she walked around mourning the fact that she would never have a husband and children
Because she was about to die?

>"...surely it shall belong to the LORD, OR I will offer it up instead of a burnt offering."
Looks like a bad translation, driven by apologetics.

RSV, usually considered the scholarly standard reads:
>then whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, and I will offer him up for a burnt offering.

NIV and ESV also translate it this way:

>whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.

>then whatever[a] comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it[b] up for a burnt offering.
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>>4993956
>Judges 11:31-40
Judges is a book about the Israelites DISOBEYING God. The entire point of the book is that they don't keep faithful to the covenant and as a result lose touch with God and forget his true nature which results in them degenerating into what the Canaanites were, a bunch of idolatrous barbarians. The book ends with "And in those days Israel had no King and every man acted as he saw fit". Clearly not subjecting themselves to Gods commands.
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>>4994275
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges

>The stories follow a consistent pattern: the people are unfaithful to Yahweh and he therefore delivers them into the hands of their enemies; the people repent and entreat Yahweh for mercy, which he sends in the form of a leader or champion (a "judge"; see shophet); the judge delivers the Israelites from oppression and they prosper, but soon they fall again into unfaithfulness and the cycle is repeated

Yet, Jephthah is one of the judges, or heroes of the book.
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>>4994301
"Hero" in that he fought back the enemies of Israel, but his actions are clearly a result of the moral decline of the Israelites after they rejected God. Remember one of the reasons that God gave them the land was because the Canaanites were practicing human sacrifice and God specifically said "It is an abomination to me"

>Some writers have observed that the Israelites of the time were decidedly barbarous; that Mosaic law (which forbade human sacrifice) was at this time widely disrespected; and that there are several other examples of rash vows to God with similarly terrible consequences. Of course, the barbarism of the Israelites says nothing about why the God of the Bible would accept a child sacrifice. David Janzen argued that the story was an integral part of the Deuteronomist picture of moral decline through adoption of non-Israelitic practices such as child sacrifice. Solomon Landers believed that the absence of express judgement implies that the sacrifice was not acceptable to God, notwithstanding the fact that the sacrifice nevertheless happened. The Book of Judges has been seen as teaching a cycle of pride associated with rejection of God's law and subsequent suffering of the people.

The people in the time of the Judges didn't know what God wanted or what his true nature was. They were idolatrous, disobedient and lost their connection to him, even the "heroes" of the time that saved Israel were deeply immoral people who acted according to their own whims.
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>>4994224
>Because she was about to die?
That's why it brought up her virginity a handful of times? Ok.
>Looks like a bad translation, driven by apologetics.
Adam Clarke, John Gills, Joseph Benson and many others including John Trapp sum it up best that if translated correctly is "or". From John Trapp: "Shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up. Or I will offer it up; for Fau is sometimes a conjunction disjunctive, as Genesis 26:11, Exodus 21:10; Exodus 21:15; as if he should say, I will sacrifice it, if lawfully I may; or consecrate it unto God howsoever, if it be not fit for sacrifice."

Anyways it seems you don't want to accept anything else that isn't translated to your liking, whatever that may be. Good luck in your future endeavors.
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>>4990543
>punished the humans for fuking up
>cleansed the world from neohelim and humand and their descendants who were eternally wicked
>killed people only after warning them that if they continue to do evil they will be killed
>helped the chosen people wipe out pagan idolatry and rid the land around from demonic worship
>protected the innocent old man, an important one with a mission, from being a victim of bandits in highways
BASED.
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>>4990543
Reminder that atheists cannot grasp moral thought outside of "muh golden rule" and whatever they saw on Rick and Morty.
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Thats because jesus ≠ god.
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Christian is extremely complex wtf. Boys can someone give me a brainlet version of christian theology.

>Whats the role of satan
>How do you reconcile original sin
>Why did jesus have to die?
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>>4991654
But wait, I heard that Jesus was God?
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>>4998081
He is in christianity.
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>>4997667
Reminder that Christians ignore Jesus moral teachings and act like atheists in their daily lives.
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>>4998427
Lukewarm Christians will be treated as Atheists by God.
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>Jesus is the Son of God
>Jesus is neither Yahweh or his Son
>the Jewish God is not the Christian God
how many levels of heresy am I on right now?
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>>4992841
Apparently you're not known for your critical thinking skills either.
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>>4990543
>wiped out most of humanity in a catastrophic flood

That was the "Father".




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