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File: begtrap.png (292 KB, 834x800)
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The Holy Trinity of beg traps.
>>
>>6198126
If you somw kind of retard then yeah sure
Never peter han or loomis ever thought that some degenerate would draw geo forms or loomis heads for 5 years straight without doing anything else
>>
>>6198126
Weak, low tier shitpost.
Loser, cope.
>>
Why isn't /ic/ on there?
>>
>>6198126
>beg traps
This is a meme and nothing more. People just give up too early. That's a (you) problem.
>>
>>6198126
don't forget the art and science of drawing with brent eviston
>>
>>6198126
How do you get beg trapped by any of these? The fucking DrawABox guy even says don't spend all your time grinding the exercises without drawing what you want to draw.

It's not DAB, Loomis, or Peter Han's fault people can't listen to and follow basic advice.
>>
>>6198126
Replace Han with Krenz and it's true
>>
>>6198721
Beginner usually clueless and desperately search for any tips that help them advance from scratch to middleground. Usually youtubers and artbooks don't really teach proper lessons of fundamentals, they only teach trivial to useless lessons. They bait desperate BEGs to pay their expensive patreon classes, which is what they aimed for.
>>
>>6198126
peter han is legit but the rest really are /beg/traps.
>>
Drawing boxes is perhaps one of the biggest BEG trap. Real life objects are not all square boxes. Even the fundamental lessons of the boxes are useless because the subject of these lessons are so narrow and self contained, there is no further usage of them unless you are drawing Yutaka Nakamura's blocky explosive ground or some stupid cardboard mecha.
>>
>>
>>6198126
han and draw a box are the same
>>
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>>6198757
>Real life objects are not all square boxes
>>
>>6198721
>The fucking DrawABox guy even says don't spend all your time grinding the exercises without drawing what you want to draw
A vague, rubbish instruction.

The reality is beginners shouldn't be touching that garbage course. Clearly you were dumb enough to.
>>
>>6199165
i mean, its just drawing
>>
>>6198757
you also have to draw cylinders and other geometric shapes in his course, retardo. the box is just the easiest way to understand how 3d works
>>
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>>6198126
here he is
>>
>>6199172
>>Y-y-you have to draw bunch of geometric shits in order to draw!

Best way to learn, is to draw the actual things, not drawing the discounted version of things. These kinds of box lessons are the reason why alot of turbo-gay artworks on artstation have blocky noses. Shit is fucking hideous.
>>
>>6199188
you really don't understand the point of construction
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=construction+drawing
>>
>>6199202
If you need to breakdown everything into boxes, in order to comprehend them, you are NGMI, anon. You are cucking your own brain process.
>>
>>6199259
you can draw however you want, boxes are just a tool to get the results you want

pyw
>>
>>6199141
for sure he's gonna make it once he finishes his 1k copies of squiggly lines
>>
>>6199165
How is "you should spend AT LEAST half of your drawing time actually drawing, instead of studying." vague?
>>
>>6198721
That's kind of the issue, though. Drawing what you want to draw is much more important than the exercises, and DAB provides no guidance for that side of things. Introducing some basic concepts like sketching techniques, measuring methods, and shape-based construction that can give beginners some more confidence and skill at actually drawing things is far more helpful than immediately trying to build a foundation towards form-based construction. Maybe some people can actually achieve something other than endless frustration when given no instruction beyond "be sure to draw things," but I needed a lot more help than that.

Grinding exercises that you don't even understand the point of is also a terrible way to try learning something. You can't test whether or not you're doing something correctly if you have no application for it.
>>
>>6199393
Not to mention the confusing and contradicting advice.
He says grinding is bad, but then draw 250 boxes and 250 cylinders.
>>
>>6199507
By saying that grinding is bad he means that you must not do more than assigned or do "practice pages" before doing it for real.
>>
>>6198126
Drawing less then 2 hours a day and not drawing everyday are two biggest begtraps
>>
krenz
>>
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>>6198134
>>
>>6199838
This and also not drawing what you actually WANT to draw instead of boxes and random curved lines
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>>6199844
>instead of boxes and random curved lines
you must really hate practices, huh
>>
>>6199841
>t. no asian genes
>>
you know for a relatively slow board the post quality here is fucking terrible
>>
People out there acting like drawing boxes is useless. You know what is funny about all these people against these courses? They all seem to forget a course is there to teach you maybe two parts of a big pile of things to learn in art. It is not a job of someone teaching a few skills to hand hold on everything.

Biggest beg trap is being community vampire and crab.
>>
Help Vampires are found in every public online community, from those nearest to our hearts to those furthest from our principles.

Instead of consuming of ill-gotten hemoglobin, these vampires suck the very life and energy out of people. By nature they feed on generous individuals who tend towards helping others, and leave their victims exhausted, bitter and dispirited.

Identifying Help Vampires can be tricky, because they look like any ordinary person (or internet user, whichever is lesser). But by closely observing an individual’s behavior using this handy checklist, you too can identify Help Vampires in the field:

> Does he ask the same, tired questions others ask (at a rate of once or more per minute)?
> Does he clearly lack the ability or inclination to ask the almighty Google?
> Does he refuse to take the time to ask coherent, specific questions?
> Does he think helping him must be the high point of your day?
> Does he get offensive, as if you need to prove to him why he should use Ruby on Rails?
> Is he obviously just waiting for some poor, well-intentioned person to do all his thinking for him?
> Can you tell he really isn’t interested in having his question answered, so much as getting someone else to do his work?
>>
>>6199954
It's not useless but you should just focus on boxes
you can use all those things like geoforms and boxes for warmups and scribble them for an hour or so and then go and try to draw things and study things you actually want to draw
but ic niggers treat those exersices like something that will lead them to being able to draw anime girls and castles and everything on earth while in reality they just help to understand some basic concepts
you can literally see right now some retard making krenz accuracy exersice and it seems that it is the only thing he draws
>>
>>6199962
>shoudn't just focus
fix
>>
>>6199962
That is why I tell people not to do more than lesson 0-1 because you don't need the rest. The rest is just shit, only need to get the hang of form. DAB offers a community that can give your criticism on how bad your form is and you can fix it accordingly with their help. You don't need to expand beyond lesson 1.
>>
>>6199966
>>This is your brain of grinding boxes
>>
>>6198126
>"BEG TRAP THIS, BEG TRAP THAT"
shut the fuck up and draw already ffs
>>
>>6200022
But I don't feel like doing it
>>
>>6200022
Imagine still drawing after getting crabbed into permaprebeg traps
Waste of time, better not drawing
>>
>>6200022
Look, basically I'm just not gonna do it. (Draw!!!!!)
I know, UGH I know I'm SORRY!
It's just that. Im not gonna do it is all.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
>>
How many of you guys are begs
>>
>>6200049
BEG is only a thread for beginners. No one is really a "beg". What career are they having is more a more important problem.
>>
>>6199259
> If you need to breakdown everything into boxes, in order to comprehend them, you are NGMI, anon. You are cucking your own brain process.

Boxes isn't the only way you can do construction faggot. Do you want to skip getting even a tiny grasp of the most basic of the art fundamentals? Because pic related is exactly the type of shit you'll be churning out if you do
>>
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>>6200121
Forgot pic
>>
>>6198126
How is Han a beg trap? I find some of his notes useful even as int.
>>
>>6199141
>doing a 2 week course for 5 years
lmao what the fuck
>>
>>6200123
This guy's art look like someone actually grind boxes too much and never bother to learn what human body structure actually like. The characters have shapes and all, just, very inhuman. If anything, he need to learn actual human body instead and the perspective of human body. Not grinding and practicing something too far away from his problem.

Yeah also, his light and shadow values look horrendous. He need to learn that, too.
>>
>>6199165
>A vague, rubbish instruction.

If "Hey don't spend all your time studying exercises, try drawing what you like too!" is vague then you've just got some kind of mental disability.
>>
>>6200212
It's a beg trap precisely because it's an /int/ course, and should not be started by begs.

The guy isn't the best at explaining things either. He's literally "do this, then do this, and then do this".
>>
>>6200337
It's possible you and others who don't get it may be retarded.
>>
>>6200308
The whole reason a beg picks up books and video courses is because they want to learn stuff like figure drawing or mechanical design.
Telling beginners to draw what they like when they have no clue how to, when you're supposed to be educating them, is moronic and lazy. Drawabox is trash and there are far better video courses out there you worthless idiot.
>>
>>6200341
>no argument
No problem moron.
>>
>>6200343
>he fell for the biggest /beg/ trap of all: fear of failure
You must absolutely enjoy drawing before thinking you can get better at it. You're basically saying that someone who wants to play the guitar shouldn't try playing anything until they learn music theory, it's idiotic.
>>
>>6200337
>draw some lines
>draw some shapes
>now draw some animals
begs really expect that courses are magic and will give them instant improvement huh
>>
>>6200022
>drawing
/beg/ trap
>>
>>6200343
>there are far better video courses out there
examples?
>>
>>6200022
>Patrick's home is a beg trap
>>
>>6200221
How the fuck are you gonna draw a human body if you can't even draw simple solid shapes?
>>
>>6200500
Nobody gets told to "just play" guitar without any idea of what to play or how. The FIRST thing you learn is how to strum a selection of simple chords, and how to play a scale comes shortly afterwards. You don't get presented with a guitar and told you're NGMI if you don't enjoy just randomly plucking the strings, because you haven't really begun "playing guitar" until you have some idea of what you're doing. The same is true of drawing. You need an idea of what you're attempting before you can get any satisfaction from making an attempt. That isn't "fear of failure."

Beginner guitar players also don't get told to "just play what you like" without at least being provided tablature to work from. Imagine if everyone was just expected to play everything by ear from the get-go before they'd even gotten their fingers working around the strings. That is the equivalent of telling people to "just draw" the things they like without giving them the TOOLS to do it.
>>
>>6200736
Most beginner guitar players are self taught and spew the same retardation you see here instead of practicing and learning the theory and method. It's all the same stupid bullshit.
>>
>>6200674
I mean, this nigga obviously can draw boxes and geometric shapes. Grinding boxes is probably what he prioritized over human body studying.
>>
>>6200736
>Nobody gets told to "just play" guitar without any idea of what to play or how
Yes, they do. In fact, people who want to get better at playing are already avid players even if they don't know the theory.
>>
>>6200633
You really are a complete idiot who can't grasp a simple point.
>>
>>6200665
The Art and Science of Drawing
>>
>>6200500
>You must absolutely enjoy drawing before thinking you can get better at it
This is how I know you're a complete and utter moron with no idea what you're talking about.
>>
>>6201093
as a beginner you're gonna be bad at whatever you do




>>
>>6201100
Care to explain why it would be preferable to dislike drawing? I can't imagine anyone improving at a decent rate like that and I know that from personal experience dealing with artists at all sorts of skill levels.
>>
>>6201900
Not that anon - I don't think your comment is moronic but I'll disagree with it to play the devil's advocate.

My take: having enthusiasm for something, and liking to do something, aren't the same. You need initial enthusiasm, as some kind of propulsion - usually inspired by a teacher or an artist, to take you through some of the early lows of drawing inability before you can begin to like it in earnest of it's own accord. This is why people are very enthusiastic to draw, but the actual act of drawing scares them (unless they're distracted, doodling while on phone, etc). To seriously undertake drawing and to like it is something that is developed, and is related to the confidence that one can make a mistake, see it, and know how to fix it. Patience is difficult. It'

Biggest beg-trap I see: neglected observational skills, hands down. That has to be developed in tandem with hand-eye and sensual coordination. I'm against digital for beginners, as you need to feel with as many of your senses the act of drawing and get it into your mind's eye. Observing isn't strictly a visual process - Vippu is right, you must feel the form as if you're touching whatever you're drawing. Good observational foundation unlocks so many doors it's not even the same game at that point - fundies become etudes on particular minutiae and less of an insurmountable hurdle that requires lots of time to overcome (ala Scott Robertson, Erik Olson, whatever).

Most sources of art instruction out there are, and I hate to say this without exaggeration, written/recorded by people who have no business doing so. They've taken what is a mostly cut and dry skill that is developed over time and have applied so much interpretation and personal emotion into it that a drawing needs a statement to go along with it for us to interpret the intent behind it. This propagates the begtraps because it's hard to find good, no-nonsense sources.
>>
>>6202567
>neglected observational skills
nta
but i got a question, is observational skills is the same with observational drawing skills(?) if that makes any sense

ive read the drawing right side of the brain + some of brent's course and a little bit of keys to drawing, sure im still a beg but i can quite critic myself and can easily see it if something's off to the point sometimes i can be a bit too critical to myself especially if my drawing didnt matched the subject

basically, at this point i'm not yet that good at drawing still life (measuring everything and figuring out the perspective is pain in my ass) yet i want to go forward with my learnings like learning perspective, constructing the body and others
>>
>>6202839
just keep at it, you're on the right track
observational drawing seems simple at first, but to get better at it, its all practice

there's a few different ways to train observational skills too so don't think its all cut and dry either
>>
>>6202843
guess i'll just have to grit it then
anyway thanks, at least i got a clear view of what to do
>>
I've never understood why people give drawabox guy so much shit. A football trainer might not be a top tier player, but that doesn't mean their training and advice suddenly become worse. Fundies are fundies, and it doesn't really matter who you learn them from, as long as you just fucking draw.
>>
>>6198126
Jesus Christ I fucking hate Peter Han. Nothing art related but that man has shit takes on boxing.
>>
>>6206275
connor mcgregor can outbox anyone, its a fact
>>
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>>6199165
You have no idea what you're talking about. Pic-related is in lesson 0.
>>6198757
And neither do you. DAB, contrary to its name, forces you to use organic shapes all the time during the construction lessons.
You are just repeating memes about a course you have never taken.
Also, reducing complex objects to boxes is absolutely possible and you're a dumbfuck for stating otherwise.
Anyone who has ever used a 3D modelling program will be able to tell you how laughably stupid your post is.
>>6199393
>>6199507
>Drawing what you want to draw is much more important than the exercises, and DAB provides no guidance for that side of things.
Except, firstly, his construction methods apply to literally everything, and secondly, almost no art course out there teaches you about recreational drawing.
>Grinding exercises that you don't even understand the point of is also a terrible way to try learning something.
Except, DAB always outlines what the purpose of an exercise is in a very clear and concise manner.
>He says grinding is bad, but then draw 250 boxes and 250 cylinders.
He defines grinding as "doing a repetitive task in succession". You are supposed to take the 250 boxes challenge and 250 cylinders challenge /while/ doing the other exercises that were introduced up until that point.
Also, you can do the challenge in under a week. Drawing boxes is not very intimidating once you understand VPs and can guesstimate the course to a VP.
>>
>>6206275
You hate peter pan?
>>
>>6206338
WAHWAHWAHWAHWAH MI BABY MI CRY SUCKYSUCKY LONGTIME
>>
>>6198126
Peter Han has been the biggest increase to my skill level, idk what you are on about at all
Maybe its because Peter Han should come after a basic perspective course lik Dandruff Marshall or Erik Olson..
>>
>>6203395
The DAB guy unironically has aphantasia.
He'd probably be a great artist without it.
>>
>>6206338

DaB tells you to draw hundreds of boxes (between the lessons and the challenges likely upwards of 400 boxes) without ever holding or looking at a real box.

This is absolutely pants-on-head retarded and is directly at odds with its objective of linking your intuitive sense of 3d with your drawing. It has a real impact on the students too, because they think of boxes as a set of dots which adhere geometrical geometrical relationships and have no idea what natural perspective/distortion/forshortening etc actually looks like.

DaBs first and oly forray into observational drawing is in lesson 2 where it asks students to accurately copy the shadows from a crumpled sheet of paper IN PEN AND INK. That is the literal dumbest fucking thing to I have ever seen.

The lack of observational techniques could be forgiven if DaB was a second or third resource, but it markets itself (and sells services) to absolute beginners and if you peruse the discord it clearly does not work.
>>
>>6206338
Hello Drawaboxguy. Your course is still shit.
Saying "y-you're supposed to do other exercises! you're supposed to draw stuff you like too!" is an embarrassing excuse for a terribly drab course.
>>
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https://youtu.be/dFdZwFf4_kU
>3rd time
>mfw
>>
>>6206788
Wait are you serious? He actually tells you to practice drawing shadows with a fucking fineliner?
>>
>>6198757
drawing boxes is the means to an end. the end is getting an intuitive understanding of perspective. not everything is a box, but everything can be contained in a box, and a box is the simplest way of conveying the three axis of 3D space, their angle, and the camera distortion. you can draw a box to determine perspective without a grid, and you don't even need to draw the box in the end once it's ingrained in your head.
>>
>>6199149
Have fun jerking off to your Roblox girlfriend with cubed tits
>>
>>6208362
Her name is Janette and she's beautiful ok
>>
So what the fuck am I meant to do then? Complete newbie here, I'm mainly interested in drawing people. Is there a book or a course that isn't a waste of time that I can use to get gud?
>>
>>6208347
>drawing boxes is the means to an end. the end is getting an intuitive understanding of perspective
In that case, Drawabox is shit because it doesn't actually explain perspective properly. There's a lot more to it than vanishing points.
>>
>>6208455
It's called The Art and Science of Drawing by Brent Eviston.
>>
the biggest beg trap is the idea that any lessons will do anything for you as a beginner. the best way for a beg to get better is to draw from reference every day and figure it out on their own until they have hit a wall. Then you can receive proper instruction. IF YOURE A BEGINNER YOU DONT HAVE THE SKILLS TO LEARN ANYTHING.
>>
>>6208455
Learn the fundies, draw and be resourceful.
If you can't master that last one then you'll always be a clueless, impressionable mong.
>>
>>6208455
Its kind of funny that nobody has put together a good beginner guide but the pieces exist.

Start with markmaking and proper grip/posture (art/science of drawing, DaB lesson 1, or First day of Dynamic Sketching). Then learn observational drawing techniques and very basic perspective. Once you are able to roughly draw a subject that is in front of you without fucking up your wrist you are set. You will be able to learn from any resource you want.
>>
>>6198126
>>6198721

Drawabox did jackshit in terms of helping me draw a fucking accurate box in real contexts. "Just guess. lol"
>>
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>>6208489
I've been stuck on boxes and basic forms in perspective for a year. I feel like fucking hanging myself.
My eyes are so bad. I can't make sense of how to apply Scott Robertson shit in actual contexts.
>>
>>6209266
you're a faggot you could have been putting those boxes to good use by drawing anime but you don't and never will.
>>
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>>6209269
Because whenever I delve into figure drawing, I realize that my understanding of perspective is still very poor. And I keep regressing. My visual imagination gets weaker, to the point that I feel like I'm developing aphantasia. And my actual vision is getting worse so I feel like I can't even reference shit or gauge proportion, form, parallel/converging lines properly.
I've wasted so much time getting *nowhere*, stuck on this treadmill

I can't accurately do exercises like pic related at all, and that's one of the first fucking pages of Vilppu.
>>
>>6198134
Aww. Did someone’s honest critique hurt your wittle fee fees? Cry about it somewhere else, faggot!
>>
>>6209266
if you've seriously been drawing boxes for a year you need to stop now. please go do some figure drawing, or some painting studies, drawing a perfect box is not paramount before you begin drawing actual things. your box drawing and other related skills will improve as you tackle new challenges
>>
>>6209278
this is 100% a mental block, you need to calm down and just let yourself draw.
>>
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>>6209333
But warping basic forms in perspective is important for figure drawing is it not? And that's what I'm failing at.
Excuse the shitty mouse drawing, but I just did this now to show you that I can hardly even do the most basic vanishing point stuff correctly.
This does not look like a proper box.
>>
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>>6209352
just fucking draw jesus christ.
>>
>>6209352
yes its important, but its not imperative that you master 1pp, 2pp, 3pp in order to do it, you really just need to be able to rotate, and understand how forms sit in 3d space.

you need to go watch vilppus drawing manual, and draw along with him. i fell into the "I NEED TO HAVE PERFECT FUNDAMENTAL SKILLS ACROSS THE BOARD BEFORE I CAN DRAW ANYTHING" for a long time, and its a trap. i started improving much more when i just started actually drawing and applying theory while i was drawing. at most you should be doing around 10 minutes of warm ups drawing basic stuff like this to start your day.

again, go watch vilppus drawing manual, and draw a long with him, it will do 100x more for you than trying to draw a box perfectly in perspective for the millionth time.
>>
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>>6209363
>you really just need to be able to rotate, and understand how forms sit in 3d space.

And that's precisely what I'm struggling with. I don't really understand the rules of shape rotations or how they sit in 3d space, how to appropriately convey organic forms. My cylinders are still horribly fucked up and I feel like I can't draw circles or curves anymore.

I will try to download Vilppu's drawing manual and follow it. But really it seems I haven't even managed to learn how to walk.
>>
>>6209376
BROOO THESE LOOK GOOD WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU.

>But really it seems I haven't even managed to learn how to walk.

BECAUSE YOU'RE OBSESSED WITH PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDING EVERY ASPECT OF WALKING, JUST WALK NIGGA!!!!!

literally

also dont try, just do it, i promise it will help you, but if your autistic perfectionist self gets in the way, you will remain in a beg trap for eternity.
>>
>>6209352
what good are boxes if you're not actually using them to create stuff?
draw some cars or cityscapes dude
>>
>>6209387
You're right I just need to do it. I'm just having this meltdown because I wasted so much precious time being an autistic dipshit
>>
>>6209456
its ok, i was the same! i was autistically perfectionist (still am to some extent) and in some ways its paid off because i have good fundamentals, and good mechanics. just keep with it and dont get discouraged, and you're gmi!
>>
>>6199393
How did you get the help you needed?
>>
>>6206788
Shit, that's me.
How do I unlearn DaB?
>>
>>6209492
The Art and Science of Drawing - Brent Eviston
>>
>>6202567
what does digital have to do with anything?
>>
the only reason I'm still a beg.
lack of discipline and consistency.
>>
>>6206788

I was thinking of using a 3D modelling program to have all of these reference forms on hand, but I'm not sure which one would work best for that.
Sketchfab kind of works for that purpose, but it's very limited,
>>
>>6198126
Have fun is okay if you're at least mid beg.
Han's exercises are okay, haven't touched the rest.
DAB is utter shit don't fucking touch it grab an actual perspective book.
>>
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>>6206788
i dropped DaB midway in the first lesson and switched to this + reference drawing Krenz style. it's clearly a better curriculum and most importantly, fun.
>>
>>6209538
2-4 months per group. Jesus christ, I fucked up.
>>
>>6209576
It really depends on how much free time you have and how fast you acquire new information.
>>
>>6209538
> Reference drawing Krenz style
Are you talking about the thing where he copies shapes as accurately as possible to train his eye? I've tried something similar and found it useful.
Or are you talking about something else?
Is there a good overview of that method anywhere (maybe a single summary video)?
>>
>>6209597
i don't mean his perspective training (haven't gotten that far, im true/beg/). i mean this section:

https://youtu.be/kbKqIJcIUCw?t=2232
>>
>>6207881
Thats actually a good idea, it teaches you to really understand what makes shadows work
>>
>>6201096
and where do I find that
it's clearly not in the beginner section
>>
>>6209418
>draw some cars or cityscapes dude
That's way beyond his skill level.
>>
>>6202567
>I'm against digital for beginners, as you need to feel with as many of your senses the act of drawing and get it into your mind's eye.
Do you say the same of writing?
>>
>>6206275
Look at his finished drawings. He sucks at drawing too.
Anywhere in Asia that guy would be a literal who.
>>
>>6211234
they're just boxes
>>
>>6209538
Has ANYONE, literally ANYONE gone through all of these and shown substantial improvement?
>>
>>6209538
may i ask who makes this?
are they trusty?
>>
>>6209492
Keys to Drawing
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>>6209538
at least post work so we know you are legit
>>
>>6211579
> pyw
i literally just started a week ago, don't follow the pic if you don't want it just seemed better than dab lol.
>>
>>6206788
>DaB tells you to draw hundreds of boxes (between the lessons and the challenges likely upwards of 400 boxes) without ever holding or looking at a real box.
The VP exercises are meant to teach you what VPs are. The course goes on to explain that numeric VPs don't actually exist in the real world. This is taught in lesson 1.
>because they think of boxes as a set of dots which adhere geometrical geometrical relationships
That's not just boxes, but every 2D and 3D object.
We can't visualize objects as anything but geometrical relationships.
>to accurately copy the shadows from a crumpled sheet of paper IN PEN AND INK.
Yes, you are also supposed to use a fineliner for linework so you grow confident in your strokes and immediately see mistakes or unconscious, lazy strokes.
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>>6211594
is dab a cult
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>>6211601
Good rebuttal.
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>>6198126
>Dynamic Sketching
It's actually a good course for people who wants to be a digital artist if not trad.
>>
>>6211539
>>6211545

i second this



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