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Are there any books for beginners on how to draw in the classical academic way? I like how the French and Italian masters of the past drew band sculpted the heroes of ancient Greece and Rome and I also like Frank Franzetta's style, which is quite similar, so can you recommend books based on that as well
I love beauty and lifeful dramatic scenes
>>
Start with some art history. There's no such thing as French masters
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>>7168111
whatever you say fag
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>>7168085
Start with Bargue plates, it's a good foundation.
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>>7168181
and then?
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>>7169101
Just start there already. That's enough to keep you busy for idk 200h+, and when looking into it, you'll find further clues on how to progress further.

Don't hoard, don't look for Le Perfect Course, just get to work and practice.
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>>7169161
I have a lot of free time on my hands, so it's no problem for me, but how do I do it properly anyway? I don't have any art materials, just a pen/pencil and paper will do?
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>>7169168
there's this amazing website where you can type in any question on your mind and it gives you links to websites with answers to your questions, it's called google.com it's really good you should try it
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>>7169168
Bargue Drawing Course for something to grind copies of. PDF is trivial to find on /ic/.
Proko for some free video instruction on super basic stuff like drawing from your arm, sharpening pencils with a knife, etc. You don’t need paid courses yet if you don’t have the stamina to copy through Bargue.
Graphite pencils, staedtler, faber Castell, Windsor and newton, whatever brand, student grade is fine so long as they’re graded sketching pencils instead of Chinese garbage.
The cheapest 18x24 paper you can get your hands on, you’re doing practice sketches with dry media, you have the benefit of not caring about paper quality yet.

ULTRA SUPER DUPER LUXURY EXODIA ITEM: $10 Conté graphite sticks in white, black and red, or charcoal sticks/pencils in the same color.

You don’t need anything else to get started beyond this list. It is simply not worth it to expand further until you have done your Bargue plates and developed stamina for drawing from the arm. Stop talking to /ic/ crabs and go draw.
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>>7169168
>but how do I do it properly anyway
See, that's one huge red flag there. If you want to learn to do something like picrel, by yourself, you *absolutely* need to become self-reliant promptly.

This is a highly sophisticated skill, which demands those famous 10k hours of training. It's not just a matter of having time, you really need to learn to think critically, to look for knowledge on your own, and to discipline yourself.

If you ask random questions to random Internet people, you'll get random answers. Let me give you an example:

>>7169193
(no offense anon, I'm sure you're well-intended, but what you know and understand is still too limited)

>PDF is trivial to find on /ic/.
The Bargue PDF is awful; there are higher quality sources.

> You don’t need paid courses yet if you don’t have the stamina to copy through Bargue.
This is a decent take

> Proko for some free video instruction
> The cheapest 18x24 paper you can get your hands on
> 10 Conté graphite sticks in white, black and red, or charcoal sticks/pencils in the same color.
None of this is really relevant for Bargue plates.

> and developed stamina for drawing from the arm
That's a half-baked advice: drawing from the wrist for example is perfectly fine in many circumstances.
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>>7169226
ok i get it
>higher quality sources
you mean another PDF? or a real book
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>>7169251
> ok i get it
> you mean another PDF? or a real book
Nah, you don't get it.

I mean, you probably understand it, but you haven't integrated it just yet.

Here's your assignment: look for a few different sources; select one of the simple foot plate, and carefully compare the quality of the various sources, and post the result of your research.
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>>7168181
This and download "the academy and french painting in the nineteenth century" by albert boime.

Its either that, or sign up for an online atelier
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>>7168085
Yes there are.

Drawing, as others have said, Bargue is a decent introduction to the academic 19th century French style.

Anything too theoretical like the Boime book - stay the fuck away. That's a circlejerk, won't teach you.

Anatomy and whatnot - you've got Bridgman, and his teacher Vanderpoel. You've got plenty of landscape composition people like Carlson's Guide. Invaluable. Carlson calls out the untalented hack from even bothering to try if they don't have their balls in it. You've been warned.

Solomon J. Solomon's book on Oil Painting is in-fucking-valuable. First class, and picks up from where Bargue more or less leaves off.

SJS is English, but he was trained by the french academic system. You have a handful of books on painting by the members of the, at the time, Royal Academy. If you want portraiture, for example,Philip de Laszlo's book is just beyond superb.

Joshua Reynolds destroyed Rembrandts trying to find out what colors/procedures they used. Their explanations were wrong, modern-day layered scans show a much different, simpler process compared to what JR and friends did. Old masters kept it mostly simple.

Pic rel is SJSs work. These people did not fuck around.

Can answer more if needed if you want to know any further technical details but it's more about practicing and getting comfortable. Painting isn't easy, getting to a good level is a hard filter for most people. People who draw well with elegance can usually paint well - it's in the sensitivities developed, but it's not guaranteed.
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>>7169193
>Bargue Drawing Course
WTF am I looking at here. Are you just meant to copy this?
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>>7169365
Yes.

I will also add to >>7169357 that as a student of a student of the french academic system, Andrew Loomis' books are full of wealth. Maybe set in his generational tone but nonetheless. People like him are the true legacies of the french academies and we are incredibly fortunate that he took the time to write his books. While FWAP might be too lightweight for some people, his books on figure, hands, heads, composition are recommended by some Serious Fucking People to this day. It will definitely not set you back in any way to go through his books, and they are above all not beg traps in any way.
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>>7169357
Thanks, man, I'm not thinking of painting just yet. My goal for now is to draw humans and animals, especially warriors, barbarians and hot babes
>>7169365
this not me (op) btw
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>>7169392
>warriors, barbarians and hot babes
based

Bargue will teach you how to copy accurately which is an invaluable skill going forward. It will teach you rendering in monochrome. Everyone who draws well has the capability of a xerox machine, they just choose to not do it. A lot of understanding is knowing how to look and how to process and internalize what is going on. You look at a thing, and you reflexively know how it should be drawn and what the general proportions are. It is up to you to stylize it how you see fit. The first half of SJSs book focuses on proportional drawing, he gets into painting later. Do some bargue, then read through his book.

If you find Frazettas work inspiring, feel free to copy his poses. Block them in, reference an anatomy book like Bridgman, Vanderpoel, even Valerie Winslow is good for this stuff. Again, Andrew Loomis has a note in his book that his teacher told him he needs to be able to "draw the unseen ear" - means to get the forms to turn properly, to put everything in its place. It's all there for you, just have to sit down and enjoy the process.
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>>7169384
>Andrew Loomis' books are full of wealth
I have FWAP, figures, and heads/hands, but I feel like I'm not sure how to use the books and I feel like a total fucking howie. Do I just copy the stuff til I'm able to do it from memory/imagination?
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>>7169404
cool, do you have a link to Bargue PDF book? I can only find 67-9mb pdfs that don't seem high quality, I've tried libgen and anna
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File: es.png (1.81 MB, 1635x724)
1.81 MB
1.81 MB PNG
>>7169413
If you google up "high quality bargue plates" you can find just the plates at 3000x3000 resolution or something. It's on a wiki somewhere, and it has text of the book on the page giving you instructions of what to do. Unfortunately I don't have a full scan of it - I bought a copy over a decade ago.

>>7169409
That is completely normal. That isn't a subject that is covered very well. You want to copy Bargues to get 2 things out of them: 1) the contours and general proportions to be in their right place. 2) the way forms turn. Both contour and rendering involve looking carefully at the plate to find plane changes, either due to obvious line change or the tone changes (harder to see). You can always have an anatomy book next to you if you want some hints to tell you, but this is difficult to see as as a beginner even with reference. It's not obvious. So with Bargue you can "just copy", as best as you can, and learn as you go.

Andrew Loomis is to me more useful as an over all guide than Bargue is, but Loomis really shines if you already know how to break down proportion and value, and thats where Bargue is at.

Once you develop good knowledge of proportion and form, you can start to build on what you're drawing and move away from rote copying and apply your own twist. See pic rel. for some practice stuff I did couple of years back while looking at https://archive.org/details/humanfigure00vanduoft/page/24/mode/2up. This is me building on top of somewhat rough quality plates by introducing what I think is actually happening by knowing how things in reality appear and how light affects forms and whatnot. I don't expect people to do this, it's just me freehanding things because I like the stock. But you can see that I don't have any problems really taking a bunch of plates, and rendering them out however I feel like.
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>>7169409
>Do I just copy the stuff til I'm able to do it from memory/imagination?

It works for some but it's not something that can be verbalized as a teaching tool. Learning to draw is learning to ride a bike. You can wax poetic all you want but you're on there and doing it well or falling off or you're just enjoying a circlejerk pretending to know what you're talking about.

Memory drawing will definitely improve by having to draw, there is no escaping. If you want another french academic text on it, they have you covered: https://archive.org/details/TheTrainingOfTheMemoryInArtAndTheEducationOfTheArtist

The more you draw the more accurate your vocabulary of shapes and forms will be. You'll have an easier time seeing composition and this will lead naturally into imaginative ("just making shit up") drawing that is passable, and again, leads you back into then more carefully studying in the same vein as Bargue to Loomis but applied to how artists approach picture making and more fantasy/dramatic oriented work.
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>>7169404
Do you use a ruler or just do it naturally to copy Bargue
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>>7169101
NO AND THEN
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>>7169357
This a perfect example of how people who don't know anything just cobble together a bunch of memes they've heard parroted elsewhere.
>Solomon J. Solomon's book on Oil Painting is in-fucking-valuable. First class, and picks up from where Bargue more or less leaves off.
Solomon J. Solomon's approach to drawing is literally diametrically opposed to the Bargue approach. SJS recommends you do a contour drawing (literally just copying the outline of an object through observation) and then use that first piece you put down as a comparative measurement for the rest of the drawing, checking things like horizontal and vertical alignments to keep everything proportional.
Whereas with the Bargue method you start with a simplified block in, focusing on the largest shapes first completely ignoring the contour until the last stage.
>SJS is English, but he was trained by the french academic system.
There was never such a thing as the "french academic system". There were tons of private ateliers which each had a different approaches and mostly provided personalized instruction rather than some sort of generalized study plan. Things like Bargue (but also the Julien system) are a later development and not characteristic of the french atelier scene of that time.

And to the OP, you will never be able to paint like that. You're literally competing with people that had private instruction from the age of 15 by experienced artists in a time, place and culture where that particular way of drawing and painting was highly developed. If you're at the "how do I draw, better ask /ic/" stage you've already lost.
It's like asking "how do I become Mike Tyson" on /fit/. You having to ask that in the first place means you're not on a life path where you're even close to capable of achieving that goal.
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>>7168085
I could swear there's a book specifically about the classical drawing method, like that particular look to the heads, but no one has mentioned it here.
Though I don't remember what it is either, so fat lot of help I am.
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>>7169822
>Solomon J. Solomon's approach to drawing is literally diametrically opposed to the Bargue approach. SJS recommends you do a contour drawing (literally just copying the outline of an object through observation)
Not him;he indeed seems to argue against **rushed** block-ins, but:

> I looked at the cast, my eyes almost closed, and then drew the space, under A, lying between the neck and the jaw, a little island of black, treating the shape of it as I would a freehand drawing.
> https://archive.org/details/practiceoilpain00sologoog/page/n29/mode/2up

Meaning, he identifies shadow shapes, and refine from there. While Bargue plates are commonly presented with a not-so-rushed block-in, we don't know for sure whether the student was expected to draw them before proceeding: that's the common modern interpretation, but we could argue that it's not the author's intention.

For example, consider the unfinished arm of picrel, drawn by a student working at Gérôme's atelier: the state of this arm is basically a simple light-shadow dichotomy, as exemplified by almost all the simple Bargue plates. More refined plates build from this dichotomy and add details.

Image from https://ramonhurtado.com/19cdatabase

>There was never such a thing as the "french academic system".
Indeed in the usual sense. But there was, and still is, an academy originally established by a king, originally meant to encourage a certain degree of technical excellence.

The French from that periods were much more commendable in art or mathematics than they are today, and there seems to have been a certain prevalent mindset of striving for some ideal of perfection that you don't see in other countries. Russia for example seems to encourage a way more pragmatic, perhaps less dogmatic way that the French.

> There were tons of private ateliers which each had a different approaches
This is correct, as shown in the incomplete works of different ateliers from the previous link.
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>>7169663
funny movie
>>7169822
>you will never be able to paint like that
I didn't say I wanted to be a painter or a master of arts or whatever, I just want to draw because I want to draw what comes to mind, I don't want to be a professional, I just want to draw well
are you going to help or just babble?
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File: boime.jpg (321 KB, 1045x1500)
321 KB
321 KB JPG
does anybody have a copy of this book? I'd like to dive into the 19th century academic style.
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>>7170784
it doesn't teach art
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>>7170784
You're better off reading Frank Fowler's books for that and grinding master copies. Boime's book is a meme for the uninitiated.
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>>7170107
That's your run-of-the-mill shitposter. Hide and ignore.

OP, thinking more about it I would suggest you look into pic rel - you can find it on libgen and elsewhere, and there is a full length video here as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3y6k_vk_Vg&list=PL0DDE1A8DCCD9882C.

It's dated and not quite 19th century academic but the book itself is an excellent intro to the over all process of imaginative drawing and just putting things down and working through them using, more or less, a process that lends itself to it. You won't go wrong using it and applying it.

In particular the practice of doing things like drawing through, using 3D volumes and whatnot will be indispensable to you. The practices are much older than 19th century and are a good way to work in general.

There is way more ground to cover than possible here. Expect that it will take a bit of time for you to pick this up and always be learning and practicing. Try to get into what the authors are discussing and find a way to apply it. Every little bit helps, it's not an easy thing to draw.

I suspect you have some vague idea of what you like about the warriors and the drama, but you may not be able to put it into words. If only you could draw it instead, right? If you have a life drawing class near you, I would say go and enroll into that as well, and apply the same principles from books to life drawing and from life drawing to books. Life drawing cultivates a deeper kind of art appreciation that will allow you to bring out what you really like about the mythological paintings of warriors.
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>>7171078
>>7171404
I don't want the book to learn the practical side of the academic method, I have other sources for that. I'm just interested in the history, its influences and ramifications. Also, Colleen Berry recommends it :?
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>>7168085
Ooh mama that tummy I want to bite that soft defenseless tummy
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>>7171574
I thought it was more available but it isn't, and the ones that are available are priced to extort.

I bought it for $20 long time ago. I'll see if I can destroy my copy and scan it if I can find it. I guess people really like the trivia of this stuff.
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>>7171835
Thank you so much anon. If the thread dies, please follow up on /trad/, my usual hangout.
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>>7171419
I don't like marvel and superheroslop
>>
.
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>>7171574

Its on zlibrary at the new address
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>>7171967
ur retarded if you think marvel and anime are different skills



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