A long bolt travel behind the magazine widens the weapon's operating window on a given bolt initial velocity thereby mitigating both harsh recoil from overgassing and short stroking from undergassing at the same time.Camming extraction and chambering reduces force required for chambering and extracting by providing leverage and also provides a slower extraction velocity.A pre-engagement stop shelf reduces total BCG sliding friction when picking up a round from the magazine.All of these features significantly increase firearm reliability and do not have any downsides. There is no reason not to include them in any automatic rifle design, other than the fact that many weapons designers don't really even know about them.Given that all of these features were found in WW2 staples like the Garand or the MP-40, any weapon designer after that who did not include them in his military rifle design is simply a hack.
>>62864132>do not have any downsidesWeightAccuracy
>>62864132thanks chatgpt, very cool
>>62864273Neither of those are made worse in any significant quantity by adding these features.The bolt travel for example is just a matter of making the bolt an inch shorter or the receiver an inch longer. Not a significant difference in gun size, but a very significant difference in stroke length.
>>62862041What did OP mean by this?
>>62864355>just a matter of making the bolt an inch shorter or the receiver an inch longerNeither of those is a simple act.
>>62864132Did you really have to make an entire thread because you were called out for being an armchair engineer in a previous thread?
>>62864371It absolutely is.For example in the AR there would be plenty of space for more bolt travel. The gas key is the only real limiting factor, otherwise the space is not an issue at all.For folding stock rifles the only real solution is ti make the receiver a tad longer which is clearly not an issue since the AK for example is not much bigger than any other military rifle despite having a very long bolt travel.
>>62864448>>62864368These are firearm design aspects that every single firearms enthusiast should be aware of. Hence the thread.
>>62864273Negligible
did that post in the other thread really justify this dogshit one
>>62864132>A long bolt travel It makes the gun longer and heavier.
>>62867305An inch or two of bolt travel makes a huge difference for the operating window and felt recoil.An inch or two of receiver does not make a huge difference for weight and length, doesn't even increase OAL.
>>62864132obviously
PPS-43s are one of the most based guns you can own
>>62868528I have the 9mm version. KP m/44. It needs a little fixing.
>>62864639Okay but you don't own any guns.
>>62868803You are doomed to make bad purchase decisions if you do not understand the fundamentals of firearm reliability.For example pic related is a rifle action inherently completely unsuitable for reliable function and yet due to a succesful marketing campaign retarded consumers like you lap it up.
>>62864132Its true a constant recoil design is best on something that doesnt need a folding stock so the stock can be the buffer spring
>>62869078learn how perspective works before drawing people holy fucking shit
>>62864273Weight, accuracy, length.Length plus weight is a nasty combo.
>>62869114What
>>62869018You don't own any guns and I will buy guns based on my interest in their mechanical function no matter what you say. I really, really just don't care, man.
>>62867305I gave your mom my long travel bolt.
>>62864639Cringe.Dude, stop. Not only are you autistic as fuck, you're literally trying to force an AR design change into something that isn't an AR. You want the AR to have an AK bolt, a fixed ejector, a longer travel (holy mother of dumb ideas). You have solutions and you're looking for a problem.Putting a camming surface inside the current AR barrel extension would require you to undercut at an angle or add separate features on it. Not sure how you'd do that without compromising the star-shaped AR bolt pattern. CMMG's angled lug design works because they're delayed. Their lugs aren't locking anything.Also, the cam path is already translating forward momentum into the rotation of the bolt, and then you want to re-convert that into forward momentum because you think it gives you "mechanical advantage"? Your bolt carrier has forward momentum and you want to use the cam path (which is there just to turn the bolt) to transfer that inertia into angular momentum on the bolt, which will transfer to your camming surfaces into...forward inertia. Assuming a 1:1 ratio, you lost energy because of that useless transfer. Assuming a different ratio, you're trading chambering/extraction force for BCG momentum. Again, it works on the AK because the carrier+long stroke piston have a lot of inertia to spare. The AR just doesn't work like that. A well tuned AR has just the right amount of BCG+Buffer mass, spring stiffness, and gas to work, with a little extra for reliability. What you're asking for would make the gun heavier and require more gas to function.> any weapon designer after that who did not include them in his military rifle design is simply a hackYou know what, I stand corrected. Please go knock on HK, FN, Sig, or CZ's door and ask to teach them how to design guns.
>>62869195None of those are affected to any real degree
>>62869555>Putting a camming surface inside the current AR barrel extension would require you to undercut at an angle or add separate features on it. Not sure how you'd do that without compromising the star-shaped AR bolt pattern. CMMG's angled lug design works because they're delayed. Their lugs aren't locking anything.You are incredibly arrogant despite obviously only ever having looked inside an AR and an AK and thinking that no other thing is possible.Go look at a VSS action. Or the new QBZ action. (hell, even an AUG has an excellent anti bolt pre-rotation device) Both of these have AR-esque bolts along with most of these reliability enhancing features I've mentioned.And how is it that you don't even understand how camming extraction and chambering works? No it quite obviously isn't just 1:1. It's called having leverage (look it up), the angled surfaces provide leverage for bolt head axial movement when it needs it the most.>Again, it works on the AK because the carrier+long stroke piston have a lot of inertia to spare.Again with this myth as if you couldn't be ignorant enough already. Go weigh an AR-15 BCQ+buffer and then do the same for the AK. They're almost exactly the same weight you ignoramus.>A well tuned AR has just the right amount of BCG+Buffer mass, spring stiffness, and gas to work, with a little extra for reliabilityDesigning guns with just enough operating window to function leads to a gun you have to overgas for reliability. Why do you think army M4's are so overgassed? Because they're not gamer guns and have to actually work.
>>62864132>Camming extraction and chambering>pre-engagement stop shelf could you circle these or provide more pics?
>>62864132Wild that people who get paid to design firearms have decided those are irrelevant features OP. If they're so necessary / great, you should make a ton of money by designing a modern service rifle with those features. Of course, you won't, because you're a basement dwelling autist who is obsessed with irrelevant nonsense that isn't needed for a reliable, well made gun. It's wild that you assume designers don't know about these features, when most gun designers happily borrow per-existing design concepts for their own products.
>>62870225>>62870225Here's the shelf on a Garand.Camming extraction and chambering are a bit harder to show because it's a matter of just slightly angling your lugs but it is found at least in AK action rifles and the new QBZ.
>>62870284Most modern gun designers only know how to copy the AR-18. Nothing else.The reason nobody uses these features is that you can get away with just throwing more gas and bolt mass at the problem which is why almost all new service rifles are:>AR-18 but with aluminum>heavy SCAR bolts>snappy recoil because bolt bottoms out with great momentum
>>62864132BruhThe garand does NOT have a long bolt travel
>>62870452Nor does it have camming chambering. The action is quite indicative of an early self loader, ie. not very optimized.I meant that all the features were available separately so you could have combined it all into the ultimate self loading rifle.
>>62864132The Garand has very short bolt travel, but it does have camming extraction, so 1/2.
>>62870225On a traditional Mauser (or a lot of other 1900s bolt rifles especially) the locking lugs are slightly angled and there's a camming system in the bolt handle/body that causes a small degree of initial rearwards movement with a lot of leverage behind it, as you're pulling the bolt up out of its locked position.This helps with extraction greatly and reduces the likelihood of sheared rims or the like. This slant cut on the Mauser 98 receiver is actually really important because it facilitates this.
>>62869018You are doomed to being an eternal retard.
I have the closed bolt version of this, wish it was an original full-auto open bolt. sad
>>62864132>A long bolt travel behind the magazine widens the weapon's operating window on a given bolt initial velocity thereby mitigating both harsh recoil from overgassing and short stroking from undergassing at the same time.A longer bolt travel does not prevent short stroking per se. A longer system can still short stroke with underpowered ammo, it just decreases the negative effects of overgassing, meaning you can drive the system harder without penalties, thus reducing the chances of undergassing (if you even use a gas-powered system).>Camming extraction and chambering reduces force required for chambering and extracting by providing leverage and also provides a slower extraction velocity.You don't need camming extraction per se: it's like using a longer lever to loosen a stuck bolt, when you could just use an impact driver instead. You don't need more force/torque, you can also use more momentum.>A pre-engagement stop shelf reduces total BCG sliding friction when picking up a round from the magazine.A mechanism which does this may actually induce sliding friction upon the BCG.
>>62868290A weapon is generally carried or stored 99% of the time. As such, length and weight matter almost 100 times as much as a "huge" difference in felt recoil, especially in a situation where the effectiveness of a single infantryman's firearm does not meaningfully change the outcome of combat engagements.>>62870136Have you ever shot a G11 and K31 side by side? Come back once you do.
>>62872518An AK has 2x or 3x the bolt carrier travel behind the magazine compared to an AR. Now, would you say that an AK is more unwieldy/difficult to carry or a longer gun?
>>62872506>not prevent short stroking per seTrue.>you can also use more momentum.It is my understanding that the slow levering action of a camming action works better than a sharp strike of a faster or heavier bolt carrier. You also generally can't just make the bolt carrier heavier/move faster without penalties.>A mechanism which does this may actually induce sliding friction upon the BCG.I'm sure that could be the case but I don't think so if it is properly designed. I'm particularly fond of locking mechanisms such as those found on the AUG, F2000 etc. But simple shelves/shoulders like on the Garand, AK, FNC etc. do shine with their simplicity.
>>62872872Looking at both the AUG bolt, and the F2000, they both use the same cam system as literally any AR18 derivative, just on top instead of on the side of the bolt.
>>62873042Well look again.Both have a locking system that keeps the bolt locked forwards until disabled by the barrel extension.The new QBZ has a similar system to the F2000
>>62873377vely implessive chang
>>62869078Constant recoil makes good sense for a support weapon which is going to engage in a lot of long strings of full-auto fire at times, but is pointless with an infantry rifle. Ever shot a properly gassed AR15? The recoil is nothing, AR18s are good but can't even compare on that point, so we already have the near-zero recoil infantry rifle for those who deem it important.>>62870136You haven't even handled a gun in real life, what the fuck do you know?>>62871465The Mauser 98 also have a lot of safety features such as gas vent holes to protect the shooter in case of case failure, and these, while technically beneficial, are completely unnecessary and thus absent on modern rifles, because we simply no longer make dogshit ammunition like we did back in 1898.
>>62874155Holy shit you are retarded as fuck.A bolt action need gas vents because without it the gas can vent directly to the shooters face and eyeballs through the mechanism.On a semi automatic rifle this is typically not going to happen, since the bolt is rarely aligned and exposed to your eyeball.Please leave this thread and /k/
>>62874168Have you noticed how no bolt action rifles have all these old safety features anymore?
>>62874172You're actually retarded. Stay being a low IQ prole. I have proven you wrong with not only common sense but 10 seconds of google.American Rifleman (In Reference to Ruger American Bolt Action Rifle)May 22, 2012 — A 1/4-inch gas-escape port in the bolt body is designed to direct escaping gases into the magazine in the event of a pierced primer.
>>62874172Also, please kill yourself with a misfiring gun that lacks safety features. I'm sure you'll find one in the modern day and age.
>>62874155The entire point is that a "properly" gassed AR-15 is not a military gun because it's operating window is too narrow which is why all military ones are overgassed.This wouldn't be the case if the bolt travel were longer...
>>62874225Military AR15s aren't typically gassed very heavily. Shitty designs like the HK416 is gassed hard as fuck though, which causes some problems.
>>62874283The HK416 is a military design. Meant for reliability. Which is why more militaries have bought the expensive German gun than any other AR15 variant. It fixes many of the AR's problems like the gas system while keeping some of the good points like the sleek design, in line recoil, and lots of rail space.If the AR had a longer bolt travel you could have HK416 level reliability with normal civvie AR recoil.
>>62874330LMAO.>The HK416 is a military design. Meant for reliability. Buzzwords and marketing.>Which is why more militaries have bought the expensive German gun than any other AR15 variant. Military procurement has never been immune to buzzwords and marketing.>It fixes many of the AR's problems like the gas system It very crudely grafts a short-stroke piston onto a rifle design which was never meant to have one. It has pretty good reliability, but mainly because the rifle is overgassed like no goddamn tomorrow, they need to use an expensive buffer containing tungsten powder to make sure that the bolt doesn't beat the receiver to death.As a result of being gassed so fucking hard, the rifles also have a pretty conspicuous heat signature even when shot with suppressors.>while keeping some of the good points like the sleek design, in line recoil, and lots of rail space.They fucking kill the point of the in-line action by adding the mass of the short-stroke piston above the line of the bore, and, again, gasses it harder than an Austrian painter, so you get lots of added momentum above the line of the bore. Notice how the receiver is taller? That piston has to fit somewhere.>If the AR had a longer bolt travel you could have HK416 level reliability with normal civvie AR recoil.OR, hear me out, H&K could have applied their experience and knowledge of making plastic bodied AR18 rifles, and then made an aluminum bodied AR18 action with rails and an in-line stock. It wouldn't have to be so stupidly overgassed (just add a high setting on a three-position gas block), or have to worry about problems like carrier tilt.No need to make the receiver extra long! Pic related was the better direction for H&K, but because military procurement isn't immune to ineptitude, the HK416 lives on with militaries who mostly haven't fought any real wars in many decades.
>>62870157>You are incredibly arrogant "All current gun designers are garbage and should implement my suggestions that I didn't actually come up with." >hell, even an AUG has an excellent anti bolt pre-rotation deviceNot the same as a camming system to assist chambering and primary extraction, but okay..>Why do you think army M4's are so overgassed?They aren't. They're slightly overgassed for reliability, which is fine. They're also the results of 50 years of fucking with the barrel length, the cartridge, the propellant, the dwell time, and moving from what the rifle length buffer was to the current carbine buffer. Which brings me to my next point.>[all this crap about longer bolt travel]Stop pushing this, and read up on the A5 bufferIf you're so convinced you're god's gift to firearm design, why are you wasting time trying to get validation on 4chan. Get out there and design a gun. See you at SHOT show or Eurosatory.
>>62864132>Forgetting the myriad of other factors that go into firearms design, such as weight/complexity, cost, use case, etcFor example, primary extraction angled and cammed locking surfaces. Machining angled locking surfaces is more complicated/time consuming/expensive than two flat locking surfaces, simple as. Same with every machining operation. I'm not sure how much if I could quantify it, but I've actually worked in a machine shop in both manufacturing and QC, as well as taking some college courses regarding the subject. It's likely that post-WWII designers felt that it was uneccesary or used other methods to achieve the same effect, such as chroming a gun's chamber, adding flutes, having a high dwell time, etc. Take the Garand and the AK series. The Garand lacked a chromed/fluted chamber, both of which ease extraction, and had a low mass ratio. The AK, while having a chromed chamber, was designed with laquered steel case ammo in mind. Rifles that have a chromed chamber, high dwell time and mass ratio, and are issued with quality brass-cased ammo by default probably wouldn't benefit /as much/ from having a primary extraction surface.There's also things like weight, compactness, and the fact that firearms design inherently involves compromise. Look at the AR/M4. You're not wrong that having an increased amount of bolt travel could potentially soften the recoil and increase the reliability, but as someone who's shot clapped out, rearsenaled M4s, I've found recoil to be minimal even in full retard, and reliability to be more than sufficient. Are you that Finnish anon? I'm pretty sure I was in your last thread kek. Learn how to solidworks, get some fucking patents, put up or shut up.
>>62869555>a fixed ejectorI'm into design myself an I worked that over when I was bored one day. That was actually done before with the Daweoos (and actually does have a semi-valid purpose IMO), but after fucking around in Autocad for a while I found that there was no way to easily integrate that into an upper receiever, meaning that you'd have to redesign the entire AR to accomidate it instead of just offering a drop-in kit.
>>62873377Maybe you should point out what the fuck you're talking about, because they appear to function like literally every single AR18 derivative. And again. If these features you're talking about are so necessary, maybe you should design your own gun, you autistic fuck.
>>62871826where did you get it, my friend?
>>62873042>>62876547How do you miss this? That cage prevents the bolt head from rotating too early, while avoiding the pretty slapdash solution used in many AR derivatives of just grinding the cam bolt on the receiver wall.
>>62874723NTA + TLDNR but:seethe
>>62875318A longer bolt travel is literally one of the things that Sullivan himself would add to an AR to improve it you overconfident piece of shit.>read up on the A5 bufferYeah? It's just a heavier buffer for reliability problems the AR suffers from. Wouldn't be necessary if the AR had all the reliability enhancing features I mentioned since the bolt carrier + piston are already plenty heavy otherwise.
>>62875565>weight, compactnessAn AK74 is identical in weight compared to an M16A1 and weighs a lot less than an M16A2
>>62864132>do not have any downsidesThat depends on what ROF you want, the most reliable and lowest recoil SMG is going to have a much lower ROF than one with the shortest possible bolt travel.
>>62875590That's because the AR is just a seriously medocre design for a military rifle all the way from the ground up.This is a pretty good writeup from a seriously knowledgeable guy.https://www.laipublications.com/en/m16-m16a1-my-little-analysis/
>>62875565>get some fucking patentsAll the things talked about ITT are prior art
>>62878403I accept your pitiful concession, enjoy your marked up bubba rifle. Oh wait, you can't even do THAT.>>62874203>>62874208The point still stands given all the other old fashioned safety features which also aren't done anymore, such as recessed chambers in revolvers.
>>62878529>literally one of the things that Sullivan himself would add to an AR to improve itYeah? So is a heavier bolt/buffer mass with an anti bolt bounce mass. Which is the A5...>the bolt carrier + piston are already plenty heavy otherwiseGuess who disagrees. Sullivan.>you overconfident piece of shitWho, me?
>>62871826>wish it was an original full-auto open bolt. sadThere’s a dirty little secret with these guns
>>62879167>old fashioned safety features which also aren't done anymore, such as recessed chambers in revolvers.
>>62878535La critique est facile quand on a rien sorti de mieux. Les points techniques sont plus ou moins factuels, mais c'est du grand n'importe quoi en ce qui concerne la conclusion finale. Il part de la M16/M16A1, faits de gros traits sur les choix du design, ignore tout ce qui a été fait depuis, Y COMPRIS les tests qui prouvent que les défauts ont soit été corrigés, soient n'avaient aucune conséquence réelle sur les qualités de l'arme. Conclure que l'AR-15 est un "pot pourri de mauvais choix techniques [...] qui a plus sa place sur un stand de tir civil que sur un champ de bataille", c'est a mourir de rire.J'attends avec impatience le fusil révolutionnaire que nous sortira Arnaud Lamothe. Critiquer aussi vivement l'AR-15 pour aduler l'HK416 derrière (qui lui, est vraiment un pot pourri de choix techniques discutables, parce qu'on retrofit pas un piston dans un AR n'importe comment et s'attendre à ce que ça passe crème). Et cette idée comme quoi sa popularité serait une propagande de soft power, c'est de la grosse merde. C'est pas le soft power qui a fait que les Suedois et les Taiwanais passent sur un AR, encore moins les Chinois. C'est pas pour rien que tous les grands fabricants s'arrachent les cheveux a faire mieux que l'AR-15 est finissent a peine a faire un dérivé de l'AR-18 du genre SCAR ou MCX.C'est pas comme si le FAMAS avait pas des soucis. Aussi révolutionnaire qu'il soit, le levier accélérateur d'inertie, c'est une extraction extrêmement violente.
>>62864355>justthis is the word used by retards that have never done anything relevant to the topic of discussion. it's never >justyou are a fucking retard and should kill yourself.
>>62864132>A long bolt travel behind the magazine widens the weapon's operating window on a given bolt initial velocity thereby mitigating both harsh recoil from overgassing and short stroking from undergassing at the same time.WTF DOES "LONG BOLT TRAVEL" HAVE TO DO WITH IMPROPER ADJUSTMENT OF GAS SYSTEMS? ADJUST YOUR FUCKING GAS SYSTEM YOU RETARD! NO NEED TO REDESIGN A GUN JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT LEARN HOW TO DIAL YOUR GAS SYSTEM! WTF IS "LONG BOLT TRAVEL"? CALL IT DISPLACEMENT! HAVE YOU EVER TAKEN HIGHSCHOOL PHYSICS? THIS DISPLACEMENT REDUCES RECOIL IMPULSE BY INCREASING THE TIME IT TAKES TO TRAVEL ALL THE WAY BACKM THIS REDUCES THE FINAL VELOCITY. IF YOU HAD TAKEN HIGHSCHOOL PHYSICS YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE FORMULA FOR FINAL VELOCITY IS V= V0(INITIAL) + AT. SINCE THERE IS A SPRING ACTING AGAINST THE BOLT THAT MEANS V = V0-AT. INCREASED DISPLACEMENT INCREASES THE TIME IT TAKES TO TRAVEL ALL THE WAY BACK, WHICH MEANS THE FINAL VELOCITY WILL DECREASE THE LONGER THE BOLT HAS TO TRAVEL BACK. WHY IN THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING "WIDENS THE OPERATING WINDOW GIVEN INITIAL VELOCITY" WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT INITIAL VELOCITY, FINAL VELOCITY IS WHAT MATTERS THE MOST FOR RECOIL!!!.
>>62882549>Camming extraction and chambering reduces force required for chambering and extracting by providing leverage and also provides a slower extraction velocity. A pre-engagement stop shelf reduces total BCG sliding friction when picking up a round from the magazine.WHYYYYYY ARE YOU TRYING TO REDUCE THE FORCE OF EXTRACTIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ARE YOU TRYING TO GET A STUCK CASING IN YOUR FIREARM?????? WHY DO YOU NEED TO DESIGN SOME FUCKING CAMMING BULLSHIT FOR YOUR FOR EXTRACTION AND FEEDING? EXTRACTION VELOCITY? WHO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THAT!!! YOUR LOCKING SYSTEM AND BOLT MASS ALREADY MITIGATES THE INITIAL VELOCITY FOR YOU SO THE EXTRACTORS DOESN'T SEPERATE THE RIM FROM THE CASING FOR YOU!!!! WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT SLIDING FRICTION SO MUCH! ARE YOU WORRIED THAT YOUR BOLT WONT GO INTO BATTERY DUE TO FRICTION?!!! HOW ABOUT YOU CLEAN YOUR FUCKING GUN!!!!!>All of these features significantly increase firearm reliability and do not have any downsides. There is no reason not to include them in any automatic rifle design, other than the fact that many weapons designers don't really even know about them.INCREASED RELIABILITY? EXTRA DISPLACEMENT DOES NOT AFFECT RELIABILITY IT ONLY AFFECTS RECOIL IMPLULSE. NO DOWNSIDES?! DO YOU KNOW WHAT LENGTH AND WEIGHT BALANCE IS? DO YOU KNOW WHAT RATE OF FIRE IS? DO YOU THINK MILITARIES LIKE FIREARMS THAT FIRE ONCE EVERY 2-3 BUSINESS DAYS BECAUSE OF THE BOLT HAVING TO TRAVEL 4000 MILES IN ORDER TO MITIGATE RECOIL?
>>62882555>Given that all of these features were found in WW2 staples like the Garand or the MP-40, any weapon designer after that who did not include them in his military rifle design is simply a hack.YOU ARE THE BIGGEST HACK OF ALL THEN BECAUSE YOU FAILED TO FULLY INCORPORATE BASICS CONCEPTS OF MOTION FROM HIGHSCHOOL FUCKING PHYSICS. DISPLACEMENT IS NOT THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO YOU RETARD. IF YOU REMEMBER THE EQUATION V =V0- AT, THERE ARE MORE WAYS TO REDUCE THE FINAL VELOCITY WITHOUT INCREASING DISPLACEMENT: HEAVIER SPRINGS FOR MORE DECELERATION, HEAVIER BOLT FOR DECREASED INITIAL VELOCITY.
>>62882549>>62882555>>62882564Jesus christ dude, you're even more autistic than he is...
>>62882772Him shitting on a gun designers who paved the way for modern firearm design kind of ticked me off.
>>62882146>Guess who disagrees. Sullivan.>Wouldn't be necessary if the AR had all the reliability enhancing features I mentioned since the bolt carrier + piston are already plenty heavy otherwise.Learn to read retard.Standard AR-15 BCG + buffer weighs as much as an AK BCG.If the AR had all the same reliability enhancing features a heavier buffer wouldn't be necessary at all. Do you see people wanting to add weight to the AK bolt carrier?
>>62882227It's a mediocre rifle.The reason for why people are adopting it is because of it's popularity in the USA, not because it's a good design.The HK416 is a direct improvement with a superior gas system among other reliability enhancing features, literally nobody other than the US army and civilian shooters adopted the DI gas system because it is pure garbage.
>>62882549Given an identical initial velocity and bolt weight and different bolt travel distances you can easily achieve the same velocity at the end of travel by using a different strength spring you fucking retard.In these two scenarios the one with the longer bolt travel will obviously have a wider operating window because the bar for successful operation instead of short stroking is generally clearing the magazine.
>>62882555Are you retarded? seriously? how can you not realize that adding camming, ie. leverage will increase the amount of force achieved with a given starting force in exchange for lower speed. Which happens to be exactly what you want in extraction, low speed, high force.>ARE YOU WORRIED THAT YOUR BOLT WONT GO INTO BATTERY DUE TO FRICTIONWhy yes I am. We are limited in spring rate, therefore we should be looking for ways to minimize friction...>DOES NOT AFFECT RELIABILITYIt certainly does. Short stroking due to the bolt not going far enough back is a common malfunction. If there is plenty of overtravel for the bolt this becomes a very rare occurrence because the bolt will always go at least far enough back to clear the magazine.
>>62882182Enjoy your Kimber trash.
>>62878535Is this your article?
>>62884587Obviously not, it's written by some French government dude.He has some incredibly well thought out articles on various historical and modern firearms. The only thing I don't agree with him is his hate of the bolt hold open, must be some French thing...
>>62878535I'll take some stabs at some of this faggotry.>"it contaminates almost all moving parts with gasses">le shits where it eats meme XDOh boy, haven't heard that one before. Yeah, it takes in gas inside of the bolt carrier, making the carrier act almost like a gas block, with the bolt itself acting as a piston and the carrier venting out the ejection port.The benefits of this is that virtually all the mass of the moving bolt group is centered with the bore, which is extremely helpful for recoil and inherent precision, this is why the AR10 has fairly light recoil for full on 7.62mm NATO, and why the AR15 has almost none with 5.56mm NATO. It also helps button up the action from outside dirt.The only tangible drawback of this is heat, as with heavy fire you're accruing a lot of heat in your gas tube, and in your bolt group. Since the M16 is an infantry rifle and not a support weapon, this is not a huge issue, but it's one to mind.Other drawbacks is that if the gas tube is full of water from being submerged, firing it can wreck the rifle, but 99.99% of people who engage in infantry combat will never do Navy SEAL style beach assaults where they emerge from deep water and immediately open fire (SEALs would deal with it by drilling a drain hole in the rear of the buffer tube and then letting water drain for half a second first, or use MP5SDs).The AK can deal with the water, and that's nice, but that doesn't change that nobody ever does this.For fouling, this is literally not a problem, virtually all the carbon buildup is inside of the bolt carrier, with none reaching the fire controls or the magazine. It tolerates this fine, the rifle will keep working even if the bolt carrier is crusty on the inside. Pic related is from a Mk.18 ran with a suppressor, and this kind of fouling is fucking nothing at all, it will tolerate 10 times as dirty.
>>62878535There is a lot of bullshit here. You may get a subtle gradual buildup throughout the receiver and maybe even the magazine over time, but it's gonna take a SHITLOAD of shooting to get noticeable amounts there on average.Not that this is a huge deal either, delayed blowback actions like the G3 and FAMAS, by necessity must flute their chambers to ensure that extraction doesn't go tits up, which means that gas gets drawn right from the bore and into the receiver in massive fucking volumes. These rifles are pig disgusting in this aspect and a pain to clean as a result, whereas for the M16 this is for the most part retained in the bolt carrier.Not that this is any significant problem, the FAMAS and G3 function perfectly fine in spite of this, and the M16 doesn't struggle from it either.>this is dependent on powder usedYeah, no shit, it's an automatic weapon, not a fucking rolling block. Does he think other rifles won't have problems if the ammunition is dogshit? The AK can cope with lots of neglect and abuse, but it's also an overgassed beast meant to be idiotproof for even the worst of conscripts.You know what they did with the M16 in Vietnam to deal with the powder? They made the recoil buffer heavier to even out the dwell time, so that it could cope fine regardless of if the ammo was the proper intended spec or the overpressure kind which had previously caused problems.
>>62884656It's "fine" for a civilian rifle where it doesn't really matter if the rifle is a bit less reliable as a result of quickly becoming dirty and hot inside.But for a serious military rifle, it's something that all designers avoid like hell and why the Marines adopted the 416.Having a tiny bir of mass off axis does not affect the recoil behaviour in any way at all, you will find that any short stroke piston AR recoils just as "inline" as any DI gun.There's a reason literally nobody else adopted DI and why even (military) AR's are all short stroke these days.
>>62884712>Yeah, no shit, it's an automatic weapon, not a fucking rolling block. Does he think other rifles won't have problems if the ammunition is dogshit? The AK can cope with lots of neglect and abuse, but it's also an overgassed beast meant to be idiotproof for even the worst of conscripts.Military rifles designed with more focus on reliability like the AK would have handled the switch to ball powder that killed a lot of men in Vietnam without any problems.>They made the recoil buffer heavier to even out the dwell timeThat wouldn't have been even necessary if the rifle had been designed to be able to cope with a larger variety of scenarios from the start up. For example by having a longer bolt travel...
>>62884712>G3 and FAMAS, by necessity must flute their chambers to ensure that extraction doesn't go tits up, which means that gas gets drawn right from the bore and into the receiver in massive fucking volumesI'm sure that is somewhat related to why nobody designs delayed blowback military rifles anymore...
>>62878535What's his argument here? By liquid he presumably means that the gas tube and bolt carrier is full of water, which if it actually happens is very quick and easy to address (pull the bolt back slightly for half a second or so), but this isn't something which soldiers or civilians really deal with it.If by a stuck bullet, he means a squib load, then I don't know what to tell him, short of revolvers and non-delayed blowback actions, firing into a squib bullet is guaranteed to have serious consequences, neither the FAMAS nor AK will be in good shape if the bore is blocked off.>it pushes on the back of the boltYes, this evens out the pressure in the chamber and relieves a lot of stress on the locking lugs. This is why piston AR15s tend to break locking logs much faster.>>62884730>It's "fine" for a civilian rifle where it doesn't really matter if the rifle is a bit less reliable as a result of quickly becoming dirty and hot inside.It has literally not been a problem for American troops with M16s since early on in Vietnam, and with some variability in reliability with carbines like the Colt Commando and early M4A1, until better extractors were used.>>62884746>Military rifles designed with more focus on reliability like the AK would have handled the switch to ball powder that killed a lot of men in Vietnam without any problems.The AK would have beaten itself to fucking death in the same situation, the change to ball powder increased the cyclic rate by a whopping 200rpm, that's an enormous change in dwell time, that shit is going to cause timing issues and do damage in ANY locked or delayed automatic.This isn't some blowback tubegun with pistol cartridges here, that shit has consequences.You can look again at delayed actions, if you use a suppressor on an MP5 or G3, the added backpressure is going to stress the rollers a lot, you have to use a replacement set of rollers because you genuinely risk damaging the weapon otherwise.
>>62884763It's not particularly material, gas operated actions are easy to do and more tolerant of changes. You can make an adjustable gasblock and that will let a gas operated weapon (be it an FAL, AK, or AR15), adjust to the added backpressure from using a suppressor, or outright shut off the gas flow for firing grenades.That's not something you can really do with lever-delayed or roller-delayed actions, you need to address the delaying element itself somehow, such as using different rollers.For the fouling though? Just fucking deal with it, it's a gun, do a quick wipe of stuff, do some lubing, and then do a more thorough cleaning once you get back home.
>>62878535LMAOOF FUCKING COURSE HE LINKS TO H&K MARKETING MATERIAL.
>>62884767I'm not really sure what he's saying in that pic, might be a translation issue.>firing into a squib bullet is guaranteed to have serious consequencesActually, it depends on where in the barrel the squid is. For example a squid located close to the muzzle only results in gas system overpressure and a bulged barrel, the weapon will still work normally afterwards provided that you remove the blockage.>It has literally not been a problem for American troops with M16s since early on in VietnamTo this day the base AR-15 remains a sub par rifle when it comes to reliability, consistently loosing to any AR-18 derivative in any sort of test. The Marines didn't adopt the HK416 just for fun but because the M4 just isn't very good.>enormous change in dwell time, that shit is going to cause timing issuesThe AK has a very long dwell time specifically to address irregularities. It also has a long bolt travel with a somewhat weaker recoil spring, the bolt closing velocity doesn't get so high as to affect timing even with a higher RPM. On the AR overgassing causes the bolt to bounce back and forth like crazy which messes up the timing.
>>62878535Yes, this is a recognized problem, but it's SUCH a fucking niche one.Anyone who has ever fired an AR15 during heavy rainfall can attest to the fact that they do not explode, it takes fuckloads more than harsh weather or ambient air moisture for this.Again, you need to COMPLETELY SUBMERGE the rifle in water for this, and then immediately fire after resurfacing with it, which is something that only ever concerns very specialist troops on the occasion they do these kinds of amphibious assaults, which isn't often, even for actual 'frogmen' units. Regular grunts will be taught to just quickly drain the gun if they fall in a body of water.To illustrate how niche this kind of thing is: the Russians developed a special assault rifle for their frogmen units which fired long-ass dart-like projectiles, the APS. This was to ensure good aquadynamics for range underwater, and the gun was engineered for cycling well underwater, but for also working when fired on land. The idea was that they could immediately go from one situation to the other and the rifle would work, and it kind of did that.The problem here is that this is not something they ever had to actually deal with EVER, and these frogmen units just never found themselves needing this capability. Combined with a short lifespan (1200rds underwater, 200rds on land), this was not cost effective, and for the most part just regular AK74s are preferred, with a simpler dart pistol sidearm for if they had to shoot someone underwater (which would typically be at short ranges and with very few shots fired).
>>62884788A lot of serious people believe that a gun blowing up when subjected to water (found abundantly in nature) is a significant concern.
>>62884860While a very niche problem it still is something that other gas systems just plain don't have...And to add, there are levels of failure between working just fine and blowing up. You might accidentally have enough water to not blow up the gun but to damage it a bit and in the next firefight it breaks.
>>62884892For example, I would make damn sure that there is absolutely no water in the barrel and bolt after getting my AR wet before shooting.
>>62884870If they are not analyzing the facts of the situation, they are not serious. How often is this actually happening? Virtually never. How much time and effort does it take to prevent it if you think you're credibly at risk? Almost none. Yet, this doesn't even fucking happen to people who are completely unaware of this issue.From these points, we can deduce that this problem is completely statistically insignificant. It sounds bad on paper, but it doesn't happen in practice. There's people who fought with these rifles in war and who were never taught about it, or they forgot about it if they did, and who are none the wiser because it didn't ever happen.>You might accidentally have enough water to not blow up the gun but to damage it a bit and in the next firefight it breaks.That's not how this works. What you're looking at is a water hammer phenomenon, the gas pressure has nowhere to go because the gas system is COMPLETELY full of water, and water doesn't compress, so pressure has to go somewhere. A minute presence of water doesn't have this effect because the gas pressure can easily 'negotiate' it.Remember, the water drains by itself in not much time, and much faster if you address it.
>>62884900https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMZ4iP12S64As long as the gas system isn't filled with water, the rifle doesn't care if it's otherwise soaking wet.
>>62884974>>62884946Water, being incompressible takes space inside the gas system. And because less volume means higher pressure we'll see a higher operating pressure for the first shot before the water has cleared out. How much higher? Depends on the amount of water, will it damage the gun? Who knows, probably not.You can see that in the video the first shot seems more harsh than the rest, as if the gun was overgassed or something.
>>62878535What the fuck are you as a rifleman doing where you are nonstop magdumping like this? This is 7 loaded (20rd) magazines fired back to back, in full-auto, in under a minute, that's a LOT. What is your machinegunners doing during this kind of scenario? What are all the other riflemen doing?>the threshold is not crossed with 120rds in 39 secondsWhich is a good argument, because 120rds is typically half of a normal issued load of ammunition, and blowing that in 39 seconds is pretty fucking fast, that would STILL be a lot of full-auto or very rapid semi-auto. 120rds in under a minute is someone hurrying to shoot up all his ammo, which he isn't supposed to be doing.As a rifleman, for the most part you would be using semi-auto for shooting, even if you're pitching in a bit for suppressive fire. You wouldn't NEVER use full-auto, but it would typically be brief usage, such as breaking contact with a few short repeated salvos or a longer salvo. It's difficult to imagine the situation where a rifleman is rapidly dumping his ammo in such an absolute hurry.An AK could dump 300rds back to back and tolerate that, alright, but WHEN would you actually do this in a firefight? Russian soldiers were certainly never trained to dump all the ammo they're carrying as fast as they can, they would insist to not be wasteful and leave themselves as sitting ducks.
>>62885066Something like position defence against the red hordes who knows lol.The cool thing about assault rifles is that you can fill in as a machine gunner for a bit if required.I'm surprised that DI results in lower cookoff roundcount, I would have thought that it isn't affected by the gas system.
>>62878535>he abandons itBecause the patent was sold to Colt.>he could have done a different impingement systemLike the Ljungman or MAS? Those are a lot less good.>he could have convoluted another way to do a gas system where the bolt behaves like a piston inside the carrierWhy try circumvent the patent by doing it much less good? The AR15s design is the optimal way to do this kind of action. What else would he do, change it into a tilting bolt, or a laterally traveling one? Part of the benefit is locking the bolt into the barrel so that the receiver doesn't have to bear any real pressure at all, which isn't intrinsic to just the AR15 action, that's easy to do with any rotating bolt action.
>>62885125>The cool thing about assault rifles is that you can fill in as a machine gunner for a bit if required.For a little bit, yeah, but even if your squad's GPMG is out for whatever reason, starting to dump all your ammo in a panic is unlikely to be the best move, you would most likely still be on semi-auto here. Even older eastern doctrine where full-auto fire was more emphasized would not want for you to blow four 30rd magazines in under a minute, that's stupidly quick.
>>62872518>couple of tens of grams of weight is too much weight to carry aroundLarperators were a mistake.
>>62885199And it's not even true.An AK-74 is actually lighter than an M16A1.
>>62885240No it isn't.
>>62885397Giga unbased retard.>AK-74 weight empty 3070 grams>M16A1 weight empty 3500 grams
>>62885397It is.>>62885438I think those numbers have the M16 with a mag and the AK without one.
>>62885438>>62885537An M16A1 unloaded and without a mag weighs 2.89Kg.
>>62885438>>M16A1 weight empty 3500 gramsWrong.
>>62884468>gets proven wrong>moves the goalposts>tells me to learn how to readAgain, you keep trying to improve the AR from the standpoint of an AK for some weird reason>>62884500>just repeating what the article and addressing none of my points>literally nobody other than the US army and civilian shooters adopted the DI gas system because it is pure garbageThe US SOCOM (so...not US army)has been moving from the 416 either back to DI or moved to MCX for years.I don't understand why you're pushing the 416 so hard even though it was a hasty backwards retrofit of a piston into an AR platform with some compromises like carrier tilt, and being obviously overgassed. 416 has some advantages but DI isn't the trash that Lamothe says it is. Recent piston guns are significantly ahead of either 416 or DI.>>62884946>How often is this actually happening? Virtually never.Combat divers and amphibious operation.>>62885022Honestly, any modern contract AR passes bore obstruction. This is a non-issue for people who are looking at the current state of things. >>62885125>I'm surprised that DI results in lower cookoff roundcount, I would have thought that it isn't affected by the gas system.Chamber cook off temp is surprisingly low. Run 4 mags full auto, let a round sit in the chamber for a while, and it might very well cook off ( depending on barrel profile, and other variables). On piston, only the barrel is a source of heat. On DI, the bolt gets heated up from the rear too. It's not a lot, but it's enough to make a difference.
>>62886591>Combat divers and amphibious operation.Combat divers and amphibious operators have knives and dart pistols for if they have to fight underwater. It's virtually only specialists like SEALs who have to realistically contend with with this, and they managed this fine.
>>62886591>moving goalpostThe whole point of this thread is that these features improve reliability. An AR already has a good amount of BCG mass when it comes to assault rifles, the reason its reliability is mediocre is that it is missing a lot of reliability enhancing features and not because the bolt is too light or anything.
>>62888409>the reason its reliability is mediocre is that it is missing a lot of reliability enhancing features Conjecture.
>>62888487If you knew anything about how selfloading rifles work you'd know it's true. Bolt travel soecifically is especially impactful for reliability.
>>62888520Not to the degree of your autistic fixation.
>>6288852490% of all short stroke malfunctions ever in AR's wouldn't have happened if the bolt throw were an inch longer.
>>62888533If the gun is short stroking then it's undergassed or there's something wrong with the buffer. What's with you and conjecture?
>>62888549You can be sure that pvt numbnuts didn't fuck with the gas setting on his M4 and it still jammed.What's with you fanboys always blaming the user...
>>62889069What gas setting, you Dunning-Kruger retard?
>>62889193Default
>>62889270A default one like various other gas operated rifles which have no adjustments?
>>62889442But have a longer bolt travel that allows them to work in more challenging scenarios with that same gas setting...
>>62864132>do not have any downsidesshorter barrel
>>62864132>pwease make gun softer to shooot pweeeassse!
>>62884763Thats mostly because they're either very fiddly on ammo or have shitty recoil and are very heavy because they're designed to accommodate a wide range poorly.
>>62869018OP, I get you don't own a gun, but I want to take you on a little hypothetical. You're in the woods with a gun, whether hunting or at war or camping. -A plate carrier, should you choose to wear one, is 20 pounds. Minimum. That's just the plates themselves, not even the cloth or shit in pouches or magazines or an IFAK-A backpack for trips longer than an hour is at least 5 pounds. Can get up to 30 depending on the load. - Water's another 5 pounds. -A belt, which you want to put heavy shit on, like your tent and canteen and a machete, is another 7.We'll use my kit as reference. That's 23 (loaded vest) + 8 (loaded backpack) + 5 (water) + 3 (tent and machete on belt, minus water). In total that's 39 pounds of shit, most of which is getting put on my back, not hips, which will be adding to muscle fatigue and breathiness. You'll notice a gun is missing from that list. On purpose. Pretend you're me, with 39 pounds of burden, which is light by metric if the shit they make modern infantry carry.With this in mind, would you rather have a 6 pound rifle, or an 8 pound one?
>>62889516The way you hyperfixate on the length of bolt travel is bizarre.
>>62889925None of the reliability enhancing factors mentioned ITT have any significant effect on rifle weight. You could introduce all of them into an AR without adding more than two ounces to the weight.
>>62890626Why are you completely ignoring things like dwell time and cyclic rate? Why are you completely ignoring the role the AR15s buffer plays in this?
>>62888533>90% of all short stroke malfunctions ever in AR's wouldn't have happened if the bolt throw were an inch longerYou have absolutely no way to back that up, and you also know for a fact that Sullivan wanted to increase bolt+buffer mass and add a dead-blow component first, and mess with stroke length second. The extra stroke length he implemented later for the Ultimak was to make constant recoil easier, because in the current AR carbine buffer length, the action spring is working too close to its extremes of its design, and the differences in ammunition loadings could cause the carefully tuned system to either hit the rear, or short stroke.As >>62890116 said, stop focusing on lengthening the AR for no reason and trying to make it an AK or a constant recoil.
>>62891936Dwell time can be the same with these features.Cyclic rate would be lower.The buffer design can be the same.
>>62892278Because this>differences in ammunition loadings could cause the carefully tuned system to either hit the rear, or short stroke.Is exactly what can be very simply fixed by making the stroke just ome inch longer.The reduced recoil is a side benefit.
>>62864661So are the benefits.
>>62864132Good, where is your design?
>>62884860>but for also working when fired on landAPS dart bullets don't stabilise in air . They tumble. You probably still can hit target and kill it within 50 meters but that is not assault rifle at all.
>>62885066>Which is a good argument, because 120rds is typically half of a normal issued load of ammunition,Fan fact: Soveit AK-47/AKM/AK-74 were issued with just 4 magazines...
>>62894952I know, it's like a gun which chucks little spears at that point (and it very quickly WRECKS the barrel to shoot it out of water, so they don't want you to do it much), but the point was that the rifle would be able to if it had to, and then it turns out to not actually matter.Sling an AKs-74 across your back and then draw it when emerging if you gotta fight on land all of a sudden, it'll do all it needs to.>>62894961Perhaps in earlier days, but they definitely would carry more magazines over time, as the magazines themselves gradually became lighter (thick steel, light steel, aluminum, then bakelite), and then eventually the ammunition too as they moved to 5.45mm. It's very easy to carry seven magazines with you for your AK-74.
>>62882555>WHYYYYYY ARE YOU TRYING TO REDUCE THE FORCE OF EXTRACTIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ARE YOU TRYING TO GET A STUCK CASING IN YOUR FIREARM??????Are you fucking stupid?
