Is 12g birdshot an acceptable less-than-lethal option?
>>64560520You'd get arrested
>>64560527/thread
Has anyone ever been killed with birdshot?
>>64560547Yeah probably. Dick Cheney shot that one guy with birdshot if I'm not mistaken and he lived
apparently the human skull can bounce birdshot pellets as long as it's not pointblank
>>64560527This. At best you can say that you got into a proper self-defense situation and forgot it was loaded with birdshot.Just use pepper spray or a taser or something,
>>64560547Loads there used to be routine threads where people would post "bird shot does nothing because there's this case of a girl who got shot at the muzzle and didn't react" then people would post gore images of people hit with bird shot at real close range with their heads and chests blown open.
>>64560547People have had their head exploded by low recoil skeet loads anon.
>>64560520Acceptable how? It might have a harder time killing unless shot point blank, but it can still severely maim someone.If for example you shoot someone in the face and fuck uf their eyes and nose to the point they are blinded and their breathing becomes impaired, you better be able to prove it was a very strong case self-defense or you're looking to a good number of years in jail plus giving a lot of money to the person you shot.
only for (((Israel)))
>>64560520WHY DONT YOU SHOOT SOMETHIN BESIDES BIRDSHOT YOU ASSHOLE?
>>64560520If your assailant is a literal murder of crows then certainly. Otherwise just use buckshot or slugs, firearms users should always expect firearms results if you don't just do what >>64560594 said and mace/taze them.
>>64560547>Has anyone every been killed at close range with a long existing, cheap, common chambering in very prolific, diverse and often cheap firearms that fire an ~ounce of metal at ~1200fps?Fuck you think, tard?
>>64560547>Has anyone ever been killed with birdshot?No, never. In fact, you can shoot yourself with birdshot to build up an immunity to larger shot.
>>64560520No, too lethal for less lethal, not lethal enough for lethal. Bird shot is best used for birds. You shouldn't really be worried about less lethal firearms cartridges in general. Using any of them would legally be considered lethal force anywasy since you used a gun. The only theoretical use for them would be during a complete breakdown of law and order where you aren't worried about prosecution but weren't looking to make the grass grow. In which case you'd be better off learning a bit about shotgun reloading so that you can improvise beanbag or baton rounds along with being able to repurpose birdshot into buckshot or slug loads.The 12g shotgun is one of the most underestimated firearms currently available simply due to its "if it fits, it ships" uses. Saboted penetrators, HE, and other niche loads are all on the menu and shockingly easy to make work in an effective fashion compared to rifles. 12g shotguns are going to be used on mars, and will even outlive lol9mm and the AR.
>>64560629Yea, just like there are instances of any flat or long bone literally bouncing birdshot. Similarly people getting shot repeatedly and even in the head as a part of an execution and living because bird shot was used. It might kill people sometimes but it definitely isnt reliable.>>64560876I've yet to find anybody with any information as to the provenance of this picture. I doubt both the load used and whether its even real in the first place.
>>64565034I don't see using 12 gauge baton or bean bag rounds would get any traction with a lethal force charge in any sane jurisdiction.
>birdshot can kill not if you're more than a couple feet away
>>64565074>The only theoretical use for them would be during a complete breakdown of law and order where you aren't worried about prosecutionIf i wasn't clear what I meant by that is a situation in which prosecution isn't a concern, as nobody is being prosecuted for anything anymore because law and order have completely broken down to that point and restoration of order is long off. I dont mean that as encouraging the use so much as pointing out how fucking sideways life would have to be before using a 12g LL munition would even enter into the realm of "may not be entirely retarded depending on the immediate situation"
>>64565090I was gonna say, we used to bird hunt and we accidentally shot and some of the pellets hit a tin roof like 50 yards away and they just kinda sounded like they bounced off like a BB gun. I would think you'd have to be within like 5-10 yards for it to do any serious damage, it's literally just a bunch of fucking lead BBs. Now Buckshot will FUCK your shit up within 30-40 yards, like getting hit by 8-9 9mm rounds all at the same time.
>>64565090sylvester hands typed this
>>64565100I completely missed that. Have you watched Taofledermaus on jewtube? He usually steers towards as lethal as possible, even if not practical but it gives a good idea of what you can get away with firing through a smoothbore. You can fire rabbit pellets, rabbit shit, frozen grapes. Just have to score a sweet deal on a boomer's reloader or bit the bullet.Birdshot may not reliably kill a person, but it not acceptable as less than lethal.
>>64565090>>64565106My grandfather was shot by his brother at 20 to 40 yards in the back and had shot periodically rise to the skin for my Granmother to cut out with a razor until he died. Lamentably early.It might have been #6 for rabbit.
>>6456503420 gauge KSG.16, if ammo was available and cheap.
>>64565090>>64565059If you're indoors and your gun doesn't spread like your mommas asshole it works. Paul Harrell says it works so it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc&pp=ygUVcGF1bCBoYXJyZWxsIGJpcmRzaG90
>>64560629But that girl did take a bird shot load with a small reaction (for being shot close range), that video will FOREVER be used as an example of the effectiveness of birdshot. If you get shot point blank then yeah you’re going to receive more damage but I’d go as far as to say, on average after about 20-25 yards #8 birdshot is NEVER lethal, depending on barrel length and whether or not there’s a choke obviously.
>>64560520At any reasonable range it's much less lethal. Many a redneck has suffered a hunting accidents so small the wife didnt find out.This is not legal advice.
>>64565898>But that girl did take a bird shot load with a small reaction (for being shot close range), that video will FOREVER be used as an example of the effectiveness of birdshot.We have no idea what happened with that load or even what the load was, but it seems totally out of line with all the pictures people post of under 15 foot birdshot hits. I can believe "survive" but no visible injury or blood? The girl barely moves, that seems like a misfire or something. Shit, even plastic wads will blow a bit of a hole in you at close range, enough for a lot of bleeding.
>>64560547the line between birdshot and buckshot is determined by a hundredth of an inch difference in BB diameter. go and buy some F or something and figure it out for yourself
>Less than lethalWhat so that they can sue you later despite them being the ones that fucked with you in the first place?You should always shoot to kill if you must shoot someone anon
>>64560520depends on what it is, close in if you are stuck number 4 or less would create horrific wounds, it's not less lethal at all, no 5 birdshot at 10 yards might possibly leave something alive but it would look like roadkill
>>64565960yiu're full of shit, you hit somone with a 12 gage round of 4/5/6 in the upper torso under 30 yards you'll probably kill them do you even shoot?
>>64565960>>64565898
No. You're firing a shotgun at somebody. It's deadly force. Your deadly force should be deadly.
>>64565960She was badly injured and spent a lot of time in intensive care and recovery. She would have died on the spot if he hit her with a slug or buckshot.
>>64565898>>64565960>>64569008What video?
>>64569272https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGBiib9qBg
>>64569305Did he litteraly spill spaghetti when he got tackled?
>>64569355Looks like shotshells. No idea if the guy that took him down shot him. He looks like he was in a firing stance before the take down.
>>64560520I always load 2 shots of pepperball(birdshot), 2 shots of buck and 1 slug. Pepperball to pepper their asses and give them a chance to change their mind, buck to take em down and a slug if they run
>>64569008A wad would do that.
>>64560876that doesnt look real
>>64569383>pepperball ammo>home defenseniggy that is going to get in your eyes too
>>64560520Legally speaking you're already applying lethal force. From the perspective of a courtroom there's no difference between buck and bird, a bullet is a bullet. The amount of cases I've personally seen where the defendant said they "only shot them with a 22/ birdshot" as if that's some kind of defense is frankly way more than I ever expected before getting into this work
>>64572220I think it's an old autopsy photo.
>>64565883He even says you have to use heavy turkey shot. If anything he's confirming that target and dove loads suck.
People underestimate birdshot especially at close range. Those tiny pellets can pass through a human chest, and the pattern is tight at self defense ranges. In fact they're so tight a lot of people might miss
>>64575650I'm pretty sure he tries both normal and turkey loads across the bird shot videos, and just says turkey loads are better but anything tightly patterned at indoor ranges will probably work.
