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>>64578637
-PVD for cheap double barrel life
-maraging steel bolts
-constant recoil/averaged recoil for beltfeds

>>64578637
A whole damn lot. It would require throwing away literally all of the old guns, ammunition, and infrastructure though.

>>64578637
Didn't the flow-through suppressor thing turn out to be marketing bullshit at least in the case of the M7? It doesn't suppress well and heats up like a motherfucker.

The polymer links and casings are coming, their own downside is that they can degrade and become compromised in storage more quickly than brass. But they are also likely cheaper to produce and form once the "tooling" is made so you could churn them out faster when you need.

>>64578809
Flowthrough suppressors from Delta P or Huxworks work fine. Sig is the problem.

>>64578809
>Didn't the flow-through suppressor thing turn out to be marketing bullshit
Yes.

>>64579032
They work, but the notion that they're better than other suppressors in any meaningful way is just marketing wank.

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>>64578643
>magwell

>>64579048
>, but the notion that they're better than other suppressors in any meaningful way is just marketing wank.
less back pressure is real

>>64578809
>Didn't the flow-through suppressor thing turn out to be marketing bullshit at least in the case of the M7? It doesn't suppress well and heats up like a motherfucker.
People who know nothing about cans reported that.

Crying that a can gets glowy under nods and thinking it's a problem specific to that can is utterly retarded.

>>64579048
>the notion that they're better than other suppressors in any meaningful way is just marketing wank
It's not. They do suppress worse but for some guns it's either flow through or the internals being beaten to death

>>64578637
My rough estimate is 4.5lb Sig MPX shaped guns shooting 5.7 looking plastic cartridges at 3500fps MV with 6.5 creed level ranges and M855A1 level terminal ballistics.

>>64579106
I think the issue was more that it didn't suppressor for shit and thus added little to the platform You'd expect the can to heat up no matter what but the question is does it heat up fast enough to fuck with the threading or become a hazard in a normal engagement. Other than reducing the firing signature I don't see what cans really add, if you just wanted less noise and tinnitus then give all the men ballistically reinforced headsets or even just sound cancelling ear-buds to cut down on battlefield noise in general while providing better communication between squad members. This is even more practical on the firing range since it trains both the us of guns and the communications gear at the same time. This whole thing seems like applying a 90s solution to a problem they've been workshopping since the 90s rather than applying shit we had ten years ago to solve the problem at lower cost with almost off the shelf shit.

>>64579111
How about just putting a better penetrating lowered drag 5.56 projectile(not Tungsten AP4 of the Drow just a hardened ceramic or steel core) with a slightly higher charge, in a slightly more robust action, down a 22" barrel of an AR? And in polymer cases to reduce the diffusion of heat from the cartridge interior into the receiver and you've improved the entire system without any substantial changes

If you want a total rework
As has been stated you could take this further by using new propellants to pack more efficiently burning propellent into a smaller cartridge, which reduces weight slightly and bulk significantly as well as allowing for a shorter and therefore more resilient action for the same weight.

As for calibers you can either bump it up to something like .260Rem so it shoots like a laserbeam out to 300m and just chamber all your squad level weapons in that from carbines to machine guns. Or stick with .223 carbines and rifles as described above and then just pick the best .30 cal cartridge and put it in that Knights Armament long recoil system which already had a decent in house system for reducing the firing signature which only real matters on SAWs up anyway.

I understand that that the real issue is politics/faggots/graft/jews/ect but at least lay out proper requirements.

>>64579188
>with a slightly higher charge, in a slightly more robust action, down a 22" barrel of an AR? And in polymer cases to reduce the diffusion of heat from the cartridge interior into the receiver and you've improved the entire system without any substantial changes
>without any substantial changes
>he says, proposing a radical redesign

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>>64579188
The goal is seeing how far we can go with existing tech, not deliberately lowballing it. I demand 130kpsi hypersonic machine pistols!

I agree.
>80kpsi
>VLDs
>Quad stacks
>lightweight rifle

Put all these together and you have a <6lb mag-fed LMG with ammunition lighter than 5.56. No reason we have to continue using big chonky belt-fed 5.56 machineguns.

With 80kpsi, NAS3 cases, and VLDs, 6mm optimum can be achieved with no weight penalty over 5.56. Only a slightly volume penalty.

If CT rounds can be fed from the front of the chamber, this could enable conventional pattern rifles but with bullpup internals, as in, the chamber resides above or behind the grip, shortening the rifle’s OAL for a given barrel length.

And you know that scopeswitch device to toggle LPVO magnification via a sleeve on the Handguard? Something like that but with a VFG and much shorter travel, or just toggle magnification via tapeswitch. That would make zooming in and out wayyyy faster.

>>64578643
Hah. I recognize that. That’s Nathaniel Fitch’s design. Quad stacks should be desert tech style though, with 4 stacks inside the magwell as well. In the case of the AR magwell, this adds about 15 rounds for no additional length.

>>64579217
I don't know if I'd call adjusting a gas system, which you do when changing barrel length, pressure, and twist counts for much. As for the cases, if you have a metallic base for the extractor but still insulated from the propellant charge by polymer I don't know if you'd even need to change the extractor. Full polymer though would require a change in the extractor. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "radical" but the argument is mostly semantics.

>>64578637
>thinks plastic cartridge cases are an upgrade
I'm not sure that we can have a meaningful discussion about upgrades, anon.

>>64579834
30% lighter weight, 7-9% more internal powder volume, and an insulated chamber are nothing to sneeze at anon. Plus you need either plastic or steel for high pressures.

>>64579158
>I think the issue was more that it didn't suppressor for shit and thus added little to the platform
It was designed to reduce exposure of the shooter to blast pressure and toxic fumes. Nothing to do with signature.

>>64579097
Ok, if you want even less back pressure get a flash hider, it has the bonus of not being a 1lbs brick on the end of the rifle too.

>>64580161
>You can't have a desirable compromise of characteristics because you just can't okay???
Shit dude why even have guns when nukes exist

>>64580216
>desirable compromise
It isn't. It's pointless. I'd either rather have a proper suppressor, or none at all.

>>64580236
If you don't own a welrod you're larping

Ah, I'm recognizing a certain posting style now. I think that I've even seen this very discussion before. It's one or more of the fag autists from that military forum on Delphi.

Look guys, you already fucked up one nice forum and while /k/ has its issues, it doesn't need this one as well. Kindly fuck off back to your forgotten irrelevancy of a forum (the one that all of the actual experts left because of your bullshit) and go back to circle jerking each other over how good Russian guns are.

Also, remember that time I had to explain to you assholes how a telescoped bolt worked and why it wouldn't make your assault rifle shorter? You're still welcome for that.

>>64580595
Based schizo

>>64579680
>With 80kpsi, NAS3 cases, and VLDs, 6mm optimum can be achieved with no weight penalty over 5.56. Only a slightly volume penalty.
And with 5.56 VLD you can have better range than 7.62x51 with lighter ammo.
Why do you even need 6mm? What with this Grendelism?

>>64578637
where's mag in grip 221 fireball rifle guy? i summon thee

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>>64578637

>>64581334
Right here bro

>>64578637
I feel like trounds would actually work for large bore rifles.

>>64578809
The flow through suppressor concept is for recoil reduction, taking the edge off the sonic crack, and keeping backpressure down so you don't get lung disease too soon.
It isn't a miracle machine, but its better than nothing or an old-school suppressor.

>>64579188
No one wants to carry around a pike like that.

>>64580595
No one knows what you're talking about, and you aren't some genius, either.
Be paranoid and deranged somewhere else.

>>64584670
>and you aren't some genius, either
That's a rather odd comment to come from someone that doesn't know what I'm talking about. That you, gatnerd?
>Be paranoid and deranged somewhere else.
No. You're stuck with me. You can always crawl back to your 10 person safe space of a forum when you've had enough of me here.

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>>64578637
>How much could we improve firearms with nothing but what we already have today
Make every caliber 6.5x50 and 6.5x25.

If you wanted peak performance and didn't care about the cost of the gun or ammo I think we could make something pretty good.
Ceramic alloy barrel to deal with high temps and pressures, HE based propellant for peak fast, go caseless to save weight etc.

>>64580595
fuck he knows, cheese it

Electronic triggers would be game changing for bullpups.

>>64588419
No they would not. Outside of competition, triggers don't matter much so long as they're not egregiously bad. Almost all the reasons people say bull-pups are bad are extremely overblown, only wrong handeds have any legitimate concerns.

>>64588494
All bullpup issues are ergonomic, which is caused by the need for a mechanical trigger and centerfire ammo. Electronic triggers and ammo only need a wire, which lets you make better bullpups.

>>64588582
I don't understand, so could you explain in detail how that would solve all the ergonomic issues that bullpups have.

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>>64588624
Trigger feel is the biggest bullpup weakness. Bullpups place the trigger far in front of the firing mechanism. Conventional mechanical linkages create mushy or long travel, inconsistent break, friction, stacking, etc. An electronic trigger decouples the physical trigger from the firing mechanism, which allows the break to be crisp and consistent. It also removes the long draggy mechanical linkage. The result is a bullpup trigger that can feel as good as, or even better than, many conventional rifles. In a bullpup, this consistency is especially beneficial because long mechanical linkages degrade more noticeably under field conditions.

But the reliability improvements don't stop there. There's potential for simplification of the overall mechanical layout. Removing mechanical linkages gives designers more freedom to shape the weapon’s center of gravity, lighten the fore-end and improve ergonomics. This doesn’t change the bullpup’s fundamental layout, but it frees capacity for better design choices. It's easier to make the weapon ambidextrous via the inclusion of downward or forward ejection. Heat and noise issues regarding the chamber being near the user's face can also be mitigated by having the chamber sit lower in the gun.

>>64588582
First of all, electric triggers are a non-starter. Bringing this up as a potential improvement for modern firearms graphically displays your ignorance of the real world and lack of engineering experience.

Secondly, an electronic trigger is not going to solve the awkward magazine placement (and by extension, the screwy weight distribution) that bullpups have to deal with, which is very much an ergonomic issue. This is one of the reasons why they never seem to quite catch on - they look great on paper, they get issued, and after a few years it turns out that nobody really likes them.

A little practical knowledge goes a long way.

>>64578705
>throwing away
Don't be hyperbolic.

>>64578809
>Suppressor on a short barreled, high pressure rifle heats up
Shirley, you jest

>>64579217
That's not that radical in implementation.

>>64588814
You just think electric triggers are infeasible because you know nothing about modern technology. Bullpup weight distribution also lets them mount suppressors and MAWLs without being front heavy, like the XM7.

>>64588814
>awkward magazine placement
Training issue, also being 0.3 seconds faster on your reload is irrelevant outside of competition
>screwy weight distribution
Nonissue, especially now that everyone mounts a bunch of shit on the end nowadays

>>64588814
>electric triggers are a non-starter.
this is genuine boomer fudd Luddism. We can make reliable miracle electronics at scale. A simple battery and spark plug is totally doable.

>>64588867
Which is why so many militaries are dropping their conventional rifles for bullpups, and why bullpups sell so well...no, wait, I believe that I got that all backwards. My bad.

Do you own a bullpup? Have you shot one? Do you own any guns at all? Generally in conversations like this, I find that people with unconventional and/or futuristic ideas about "how to perfect firearms" have a conviction in said ideas inversely proportional to their actual experience with firearms.

>>64588871
Battery issues aside, we probably can. It doesn't matter. No serious purchaser is going to spend money on something like that. If you were old enough to post here, you'd have a better idea of how the world works. If you owned a gun, you'd have a better idea of why gun owners (both individual and fleet) are wary of something like this. But you're neither, and you don't know enough to know just how dumb you sound when you spout off with this stuff on a weapons forum, even if it's heavily populated with jeets and nogunz like you.

>>64588897
>Do you own a bullpup? Have you shot one? Do you own any guns at all? Generally in conversations like this, I find that people with unconventional and/or futuristic ideas about "how to perfect firearms" have a conviction in said ideas inversely proportional to their actual experience with firearms.
That's a projection of your own inadequacy retard. Plenty of people on this board have extensive experience with a variety of different bullpups as well as conventional rifles for comparison.

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>>64588906
I own a few and I've shot a few more. Now answer the question, faggot. And while you're at it, thank me for bumping your faggy thread again. It would have already slid without my help.

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>>64588897
Seems like what's going on here is that you have slipped into circular reasoning.

>People wouldn't adopt an electric gun because it's bad.
>It's bad because people haven't adopted it.

We can also see signs of dunning kruger syndrome. You know a little about electronics and guns, thus you think you know everything.

>>64589270
>autist proposes unrealistic idea
>realist points out that it's unrealistic
>autist moves goalposts
>autist strawmans realist
>autist accuses realist of dunning kruger
You got me dead to rights, retardanon. I know nothing about bullpups or electronics, and the only reason why the world hasn't embraced bullpups with electronic triggers is because everyone - and I mean everyone - in the world is too dumb to have even considered it, let alone tried it. You've either outsmarted the entire firearms industry (to include the global MIC) or there's something that they know that you don't. Which of these scenarios strikes you as being more likely?

>>64589855
Electronic triggers are one of the things that militaries won't adopt until they have widespread commercial adoption and work out all the bugs, but they'll never see commercial adoption because they don't have any advantages for the fuddgats they're allowed to go in, and they're banned from semiautos because designing one that can't be easily converted to full auto isn't financially viable.

As much as I like the idea of having an electronic trigger in guns, wouldn't it be a bitch to require batteries to fire a gun?

>>64590013
Yes. It's simply bad engineering to unnecessarily mix phenomenology.
In theory a battery will last tens of thousands of shots and piezo systems can back it up; then along comes reality, like a cold winter, and poops on the project.
A mechanical trigger does it all fine. The key is in cartridge improvements.

>>64588867
>screwy weight distribution Nonissue
It's why bullpups are hated in the first place. People who theorycraft a lot tend to think the best place for the center of mass is between the rear hand and shoulder. People who shoot a lot tend to prefer the COM between their hands.

>>64588897
>No serious purchaser is going to spend money on something like that.
no serious gentleman will buy that damn'd "horseless carriage"!!!!!!!

>>64588419
>>64588582
>>64588673
>>64588852
>>64589975
>>64590094
Bullpups don't need an electronic firing system for a good system.
You simply need to either move the firing sear closer to the trigger or have a pull only linkage that is only connected to the trigger and sear and has plenty of clearance so it doesn't touch the frame.

>>64590459
*for a good trigger

>>64590459
Just use an AR drop in trigger and have the hammer strike a transfer bar. Then it will have exactly the same trigger pull as a non-bullpup.

>>64590495
That's a kludge solution but yeah there's no reason you can't transfer the actual hammer movement instead of the trigger movement.

>>64580236
>>64580161
You can just say you don't own a suppressor

>>64590495
Might work but has the drawback of increasing the vertical distance between the FCG and barrel above it, increasing the bulk of the weapon. It also needs an additional layer of OOB or drop safety. Should also put the transfer bar on rollers to reduce friction and prevent light primer strikes

>>64578637
nah
all that shit you listed has its own downsides and you don't get a better gun from it, just a different gun

rifle is fine

>>64589855
Seems like what you're doing here is an attempt at reverse psychology. You're hyperbolically flipping your earlier argument in an attempt to make its assumedly contrarian detractors disagree with it reflexively, thereby agreeing with you. Ultimately you've not changed your own points, but merely repeated them. Why you can believe this defends your points from the criticism they already face is unknowable, but surely not logical.

>>64589975
That's one real world problem. There are one or two more, but obsessed autists don't want to hear about it and realists already know.

>>64591937
That's some impressive word salad anon. Before we tackle that, can you answer some questions that I'd asked earlier?
>do you own a bullpup?
>have you shot one?
>do you own any guns at all?
I need a little context here.

>>64592622
>That's one real world problem.
It's the only one that's insurmountable. The others could be engineered around, given enough time and investment.

>>64590763
Of course I do. I don't own a flowthrough because they're useless.

>>64592622
>I need a little context here.
What you're doing now is attempting to attack the credibility of those who disagree with you. You're saying they don't know what they're talking about, therefore their points can't be logically well founded. You don't really have any other recourse at this point, so you'll likely continue doing this regardless of what answer you get, it in an attempt to shift the topic of the conversation.

if you're going to do electric ignition you'll do it with a piezoceramic like modern lighters
speaking of modern lighters, the future is light gas guns
imagine getting 5km/s out of a 50cm barrel
it's easy if you try!

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>>64592957
>5km/s out of a 50cm barrel
explain your model, young man

>>64591937
Holy shit anon, are you really misidentifying blatant sarcasm and parody for reverse psychology.

Here, since there is something obviously wrong with the social part of your brain, and the webpage of logical fallacies you are reading apparently doesn't include these, I'll go get some definitions

>Reverse psychology is a persuasion technique where you advocate for the opposite of what you want, hoping the other person will do what you actually desire. This tactic works by triggering the psychological phenomenon of reactance, where a person resists being told what to do and asserts their independence by choosing the option that is being argued against.

>Sarcasm is the use of words that mean the opposite of what one intends to say especially in order to insult, to show irritation, or to be funny

>Parody is an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.

That Anon isn't arguing a position in order to create a negative psychological response in others that motivates them to take an opposing position to the Anon, which the Anon secretly wants them to take (Reverse Psychology).

What Anon is doing is stating a humorously exaggerated version of your position (Parody), facetiously agreeing with that position despite its obvious invalidity (Sarcasm), and making conclusions based on that position which portray you as a genius who is better than the entire firearms industry with the implication that this conclusion is just as invalid as the rest of this position (more Sarcasm). Zero reverse psychology involved.

No offense, but when you start playing logical fallacy cards while not being able to comprehend basic rhetoric, you come off as an arrogant moron who is way out of his league. Not really dodging the "I think I'm smarter than the rest of the world while being an idiot" allegations, ngl.

>>64592972
sort of like a rocket engine but in reverse, if that makes sense?
in a single stage CLGG you have a big cylinder which is your ignition chamber tapering down into a small cylinder which is your propulsion chamber
hydrolox or metholox is detonated
the supersonic shockwave is further compressed travelling through the taper and finally slams into the projectile, propelling it
design of the sabot is somewhat iffy and the gun shoots harder the hotter it gets but other than that it's pretty cool
in two-stage guns you have a piston between the first chamber, which compresses pure hydrogen in the second much smaller chamber achieving even insane-er pressure
I dream of a LGGG, where a pulsed detonation engine would be the core of the thing and you swap in loaded barrels between pulses

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>>64592987
See, what's really happening here is you're trying to deflect by baiting for some kind of "Well, actually" reply. Something that exposits how you don't grasp the deeper meaning of the "hyperbolically flipping" turn of phrase you've just heard. Or perhaps your lack of insight into what "attempt" infers. But in actuality, you already comprehend what was said, and simply want to derail the conversation away from the topic of electronic triggers in bullpups.

>>64592925
>blah blah blah
You could just answer my questions. Are you worried that you have no credibility? And are we forgetting that this whole thing resulted from my experience being questioned?

Again, you're welcome for the bump. We'll keep your shitty thread alive to humiliate you some more.

>>64593024
i demand an ms paint illustration

>>64595007
You won't get one. He read it somewhere and doesn't really understand it, but it sounded cool so he's repeating it here. You get that a lot with this sort of autist. There are entire forums dedicated to it.

Also a free bump for OP. For the record, I'm only about 50% sure that I'm addressing the person that I think I'm addressing, or one of his four or five butt buddies anyway. If it's that guy and I'm breaking his balls here, I find that funny. I'm fully aware that I may be dealing on some poor rando in a completely schizo manner that truly has no idea of who I am or what I'm talking about, and I find that concept completely hilarious. Either way I'm amused, so the bumping will go on regardless of whether or not he fucked off back to Delphi, or if he was ever there in the first place.

>>64597332
lol based

>>64597332
meds. now.

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>>64597332
What, you're telling me that the guy that thinks we could miniaturize rocket engines tk shoot bullets without accounting for the exponential loss in thrust is a yapper?

>>64599142
Your opinion is discarded on account of being ESL. Also, you're probably a fag.

>>64600227
For the record, I don't think that OP is the rocket poster. It seems pretty obvious from the differences in posting styles. They're both worthy of ridicule though.
>and not for nothing, he didn't explain himself as predicted

Also, it's time for a bump.

>>64594061
I think the problem with your approach is you're claiming you know everything without providing any proof. You're just asking everyone else basic questions if they call you out. I've used an AUG. I've "shot a gun". Does that mean anything I say is right and you're wrong? Use an actual argument. Why are electronic triggers not good for bullpups?

I remember there was a project for creating straight walled intermediate cartridge but it stopped on prototype stage. Imagine 50 round mag in size of 30 round STANAG one.

>>64601686
Scroll through our exchange again. I said that electronic triggers are a non-starter (correctly) and that bullpups aren't catching on (also correctly). As proof, I mentioned that nobody is adopting bullpups anymore and most prior bullpup users are going away from them. This made a couple of autists very angry, but no counter argument was ever made. Instead, I was accused of not having experience with bullpups (falsely) and then there was some name calling. A good chunk of this drama was the result of people having poor reading comprehension and/or assigning comments and opinions to me which I did not share, in order to produce an argument.

You apparently are one of them, so you can go fuck yourself too. You and the OP and enjoy another bump to the top and then you both need to go back.